jesterkind
jesterkind
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Damn, and I had multiple threads planned too…
Absolutely devastating news, truly. I think the writing's probably been on the wall for a while, what with this being a dwindling instance of a dead format, but it still sucks majorly to lose it so quickly.
I love this place and I'll miss it dearly. Guess I should probably look at the discord whenever I get that email, but it definitely won't be a replacement.
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That might actually get me to sit through 20 minute queues, lol, cosigned
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@Elan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/472433/background-player-rework
Champion of Light, Background Player, Power Struggle, Finesse and many more unhealthy perks will hopefully be touched too. I agree that Background player is very oppressive and should receive complete rework, but elusive isn't it. Make it oppossite of OG version. When you unhook survivor, they gain 150 % haste for 3s. They can choose whether to get away or heal under hook. Of course must be deactivated in EGC.
I think that treads on the toes of Babysitter a little too much, and also isn't as much thematic with the perk's name and concept.
Making it Elusive means you can sneak up to get the save then disappear into the background again, like the perk's original intent, except now it's not in a way that leaves your teammate stranded because you're both slipping away stealthily.
Also Champion of Light is fine idk why you'd say that one's unhealthy
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@MrBuffalo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4118196#Comment_4118196
Are we playing the same game?
Devs are trying to force a certain meta. They nerfed stealth perks, they nerfed perks that are used to prioritize yourself (Selfish perks as they called it) So yes they are telling survivors how to play the game.
Which is fine if they want to force a certain meta of play. But when its heavily on one side compared to the other it makes people question why they are doing this.
I don't think that's all that true, personally.
The devs haven't nerfed "stealth perks", as a category, they've nerfed two specific ones - Distortion and, on this PTB, Self Preservation. They have yet to nerf other similar stealth perks, and other forms of stealth perks like the chase-breaking deception perks in the vein of Dance With Me and Quick & Quiet most recently got buffs.
Stealth as a mechanic is absolutely allowed and even encouraged in some forms by the devs, based on their actions, it's just also subject to balance changes like everything else.The devs don't, to me, seem like they're trying to push people away from any playstyle, they tend to favour weakening playstyles they think are too strong or obnoxious. Even when that isn't appropriate, like with tunneling.
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@ABAEX said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4118304#Comment_4118304
Before adding MORE bad precedents.
The previous bad precedents should be removed.
like anti-camp/ anti-tunnel/ can't catch save hook/ 8 break gen Limit/ Too many pallets
this all truly bad precedents.
If you want, Blood Lust and three vault sealing the window can all be bad precedents, but there are solutions for them.
None of those things are bad precedents, though.
Most of them aren't even problems, only too many pallets on some maps would actually warrant any changes.
Even if they were, though, stopping this bad precedent from happening would be much easier to do first, instead of waiting until some arbitrary time in the future to get rid of it.
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@ABAEX said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4118311#Comment_4118311
You have no data to support your viewpoint, but I can provide you with the astonishing data from 5,646 individual matches carrying STB, which achieved a 40% escape rate, to tell you that this perk needs to be changed.
StB change is healthy ,and Stb need more nerf, like only use when that survivor is healthy.
because all killer that only use M1 can not Prevent StB from being used.
I don't mind the idea of StB being nerfed - although people vastly overstate how powerful it is - and I also actually like the change from Exposed to Broken.
I only have an issue with the "using it once turns it off for other people" part. I don't think they should do that. Restricting it some other way could be fine, depending, just not that way.
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@ABAEX said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4118304#Comment_4118304
I understand what you mean:
If a bad precedent is harmful to killers but beneficial to survivors, you choose to remain silent
If a perk that should have been weakened for survivors is changed, you consider it a 'bad precedent'.
you post Good First Steps For Nerfing Blight — BHVR
but nerf blight give killer a "bad Precedent"(I know break palate power cool-down start at GHOUL) that all killer can nerf by this way.
and YOU DON'T think this is "bad precedent" and THIS nerf is a good "first" steps.
🤣🤣🤣
now Shoulder The Burden be nerfed.
What? look familiar?
Scenes like these are happening all over the Entity, right now!
You could be next.Then you should bear it, because you have always supported handling it this way.
I've also posted about how to improve specific killers, how to handle genrushing, and I've posted before about problem perks on the survivor side like Vigil and Distortion before they were nerfed.
I do actually care about the game as a whole. It was a good first step to nerf Blight's unfair cheese, the same way it would be a good step to rework toolboxes or to nerf, for example, Resurgence.
Problems exist on both sides and how those problems are handled matters. That Blight change was healthy, it had the right effect, but this StB change isn't.
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@ABAEX said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4118299#Comment_4118299
Shoulder The Burden should not exist in this game.
if give killer a perk that make killer can hook other survivor but give hooked survivor hook stage.
and survivor Cannot counter this perk.
you say "Shoulder The Burden Nerf Sets A Bad Precedent"
But there have already been many bad precedents before this.
Even if that were true, that doesn't mean we should be adding more bad precedents. We shouldn't want any perk in this game to be fully disabled for you just because a teammate used theirs, unless they revolve around a consumable resource like totems.
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I don't think I'm following, what do you mean by this?
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4117648#Comment_4117648
But thats the thing, those Perks exist for a very long time. Like, Sprint Burst has been Meta for 10 years before it got nerfed. And then suddenly it is a problematic Perk? Nothing got changed which made Sprint Burst even better (aside from Vigil, but this got nuked as well).
This is what I mean with "moving the goalpost". Perks which are no problem are not complained about and suddenly, after other Perks get nerfed, those Perks become the next best thing to complain about.
And we will see new Threads coming up in a few weeks which then claim other Perks to be too good and the reasons why Killers lose games.
To be fair, that's not moving the goalposts so much as it is continuing to talk about balance opinions. Just because one problematic tool - whether it's Sprint Burst, or something else you'd personally agree is a problem - got fixed doesn't mean there's no remaining problems.
It cuts both ways; I've talked about DMS being a problem before, but I'm not going to refrain from talking about Lightborn, Pain Res, or the concept of stacking quad slowdown because of it. I'm not moving the goalposts by doing so, those are just the relevant problems left.
Similarly, Sprint Burst and Vigil being nerfed doesn't mean toolboxes aren't a problem, or that Lithe isn't really good for what it asks of you, or that unhookable build shenanigans aren't a problem.It also goes in another direction entirely- this patch is buffing Better Than New and Solidarity but I still think those perks need different changes so I'll probably talk about that in the future.
It's not like one perk being addressed means there has to be a moment of silence about other perks.
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@Zakon05 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4117642#Comment_4117642
I absolutely do think these are crazy powerful outcomes, far moreso than its intended effect of trying to avert tunneling. Because, I stress here, the only survivors who can use it like this are the best of the best groups who understand match pace and are trying as hard as they can to win with good communication.
Getting a survivor onto death hook is one of the most important things you can do as a killer. At minimum it changes the way the team has to play. They need to be careful about how they unhook that person, and then the unhooked player has to play much more cautiously, work on safe gens, try to hide and avoid chase more, and not be the one to take a risk like going for an unhook.
Preferably you want it to happen by around the time you have 2 gens left, and against good teams who actually have the coordination to use the perk like this, even getting the three hooks necessary to put someone on death hook without tunneling can be a big ask to do by the time you're down to 2 gens.
If you're up against such a team and StB gets used against you like this, that's it. You lose. What minimal pressure you were exerting by threatening to remove a player from the match if you find them again just got taken away from you.
And it happened because you weren't camping to punish the StB unhook and put the rescuer on death hook instead.
But in this scenario, that's the first four hooks, right?
StB user has to have 0, two more have to have one each, and one has to be on death hook. That means the fourth hook is the one shifted this way. If you're at two gens left with only four hooks then you have bigger problems than StB going on and you're already looking at playing for a comeback.
I will grant that very aware teams would be the ones to play slightly differently surrounding someone on death hook, but I don't think StB actually changes that. Instead of shuffling the hook state, they'd just have the fresh survivor get in your face while the death hook survivor plays stealthy.
StB just doesn't do that much here. At best it's one of many resources and options the high calibre teams who use it have for the same overall goal, and more realistically it's changing an early death hook survivor to getting a potentially much stronger perk out of the way early without too much fanfare.
And again, just to be clear: My issue is with this change, not any potential change. This change is a bad one because of the wider context of the precedent it sets.
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@Zakon05 said:
Even setting aside that it's wholly unnecessary for this perk - multiple uses only even can happen in scenarios that aren't actively throwing is when someone's tunnelled
Let me break down how I see it used - and I'm not exaggerating here - 100% of the time in my own matches.
SCENARIO 1:
Killer hooks survivor A
Killer hooks survivor B
Killer hooks survivor A again.
Killer leaves the hook. Survivor C unhooks survivor A with Shoulder the Burden. Now no one is on death hook and the killer has been punished for not camping.
Killer hooks survivor A, B, or C and then, once again, leaves the hook. Survivor D unhooks with Shoulder the Burden. Now, once again, the killer has been punished for not camping and now also not tunneling.
SCENARIO 2:
Killer hooks survivor A.
Killer hooks survivor B.
Killer hooks survivor C.
Killer hooks survivor A, B, or C again and leaves the hook.
Survivor D unhooks with Shoulder the Burden. The killer has now been punished not only for not camping or tunneling, but also for spreading hooks.
Deactivating it for all players solves scenario 1.
Yes this happens to me when I'm playing killer.
Yes, EVERY SINGLE TIME I see it used it's one of these two situations.
No, it's not common, but tell me truthfully if you think that the perk cannot be abused after reading this.
Those are the scenarios I can think of where it's used without tunneling, but none of those are particularly crazy powerful outcomes.
Sure, the killer loses the opportunity to potentially get someone out quicker with someone on death hook, but they still gained all the pressure/slowdown from the hooks they're meant to and also still has the same amount of overall objective progression; in the second scenario especially there's no fresh survivor to either take aggro or be the "oh this is the worst chase I could be taking" moment, and everyone is one hook away from imminent danger.
This is use of the perk outside of tunneling, but it is not abuse of the perk.
Of course, I do need to repeat: even if that is abusing and the perk's a huge problem, this specifically is a bad change because it sets a bad precedent.
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@NordSahne said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4117574#Comment_4117574
Tbh, the perk should have never existed as a perk to begin with, because it changes fundamental game mechanics, they tinkered with something they shouldn't have, the best case would have been a complete rework
Eh, that's not true either. The only thing it affects heavily is tunneling, which is very much not a fundamental game mechanic.
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@NordSahne said:
The problem was, that you could abuse it too much in swf, the idea was to prevent this, besides, it still makes sense to bring 2 stb, because what if the person that brought the perk is getting hooked first? It automatically become useless and someone else bringing it as well could still use theirs
It's not really possible to abuse StB because of how it's designed, but even if it were- the right way of fixing that would be to nerf the effect in some way, as opposed to setting a precedent like this.
If this only ever happened to StB it'd be one thing, but a concept being introduced like this makes it seem more reasonable to add it somewhere else, and that's what I'm worried about.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/472354/empathic-from-zero-to-hero
I'm surprised they didn't change botany, like, this perk is literally just botany but better now right?
Botany affects self-healing and Empathic doesn't, so BK is still far and away the better perk.
That said, a small % nerf to BK might be appropriate, as much as I love that perk.
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@NotJared said:
These two perks do almost the exact same thing now except one is objectively better with a bonus effect.
(Yes, I know they technically have different requirements for use, but not much enough that they feel like different perks)
I don't know, while I do think BK being as high as it is might be a problem when it comes to perk comparisons, they are different perks.
Botany is the far stronger and more flexible perk, and when you compare Empathic to it now, the tradeoff is that you get the weaker version of heal speed but with a potentially quite useful extra effect.
It's a comparison that absolutely favours Botany, but there is a distinction that matters for how the perks would be used and what value you're expecting to get from them.
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I've got one for the community and one for the game itself.
For the community, it's a pet peeve of mine when people say "M1 killer" when all they actually mean is "weak killer". Situations where killers like Pig are used as examples, but killers like Spirit, Pinhead, and Singularity aren't, due to Pig being weak historically and the others being strong as opposed to whether they're designed around M1s.
For the game, it's a huge pet peeve of mine to be the one hooked in the endgame and for my teammates to awkwardly linger just outside the killer's effective range, either staring at them or pointing/vaulting to get their attention. Commit to the save or leave already, this is wasting everyone's time…
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@AliceNull said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4115562#Comment_4115562
Because it absolutely does do a LOT if the killer isn't tunneling. Forcing hook stages to be normalized across your team is a very, very powerful safety valve for pressure. Unless your definition of tunneling is ridiculous to the point that not 4-hooking arbitrarily is tunneling, it is very common for hook stages to be 1-2-1-0 by 4 hooks without someone being hard targeted, and (while less common) particularly stubborn survivors returning to an important gen the killer is patrolling, or survivors against killers with high map mobility can be put to 1-2-0-0 by 3 hooks even with a full reset just by happenstance.
Having someone on death hook changes a lot about how survivors play, or at least how they should play. In these cases, survivor 2 has to be much, much more careful about everything from what gen they're doing, to whether they go for saves, to even crossing the map. It often draws out altruism from the rest of the team that can lead to pretty heavy snowballing as well. Shoulder just eats all that death hook pressure, and often for free if its done at the right time or if the killer relies on damaging M2s for downs so they can't make use of the exposed.I'm not really sure I see that kind of effect meaningfully happening in most matches. Normalising out 1-2-1-0 to 1-1-1-1 by 4 hooks may make survivor two play slightly less cautiously, but that comes at the cost of survivor four now having a whole chase/down/hook removed from them so it doesn't actually add that much to the game overall.
You as the killer still get the full weight of hook value, and you're if anything also closer to threatening the whole team since now everyone is one hook away from death hook - there's not a 'fresh' survivor to take any aggro or go for a riskier save or anything.Not to mention that in this scenario, the only way it works out is if survivor four and only survivor four is the one who actually has StB equipped. It can't be survivor two for obvious reasons, but it being survivor one or survivor three just shuffles around who's closer to death.
If multiple survivors are running it in this scenario, then multiple survivors have dead perk slots, so that's not a much better outcome either.The pressure being lessened on survivor two here only matters if they're actually the one being targeted by the killer next, and the only time that's guaranteed is if they're being tunnelled. Otherwise there's way too many variables outside of the players' control to conclusively say StB is actually helping much- it's a maybe at best.
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@AliceNull said:
I'd say the two perks I hate the most are Dissolution and Blood Favour.
I think that Dissolution is just badly designed and in need of a rework, its definitely not overpowered in a balance sense and can even be outright useless in a lot of matches or situations, but I find that to be part of the problem, personally. And there are killers that make it a more frustrating experience outright like Ghoul or Krasue given how good they are at punishing tile transitions.
Blood Favour is more of an actual problem in my opinion, though the recent nerfs to Thrill have made it less of one. I think it could do with some kind of restriction or limiting factor like an activation condition, as it activating off of M2s leads to it being overly strong on a lot of the high end killers that have good two tap potential without resources, and it being active off the start leads to early snowballing. You might be able to cleanse the totem, but all it really takes is 2 or 3 good activations to get significant value from the perk in my opinion.
On the survivor side, though, I think Shoulder The Burden is an interesting and fun perk to use…that is a genuine balance issue unfortunately. Less with the vigil change, for sure, but its downside isn't enough for its strengths, and the only reason its not being seen more is how common it is for people to unhook badly and not look at their teammates perks. At its core, it needs to either actually lose strength against people who aren't tunneling, or have a more significant downside to using it (importantly, not both at the same time!). I'm not opposed to leaving it as a generally strong perk rather than making it anti-tunnel, but it should really see a similar injured and broken condition to For The People if its going to stay that way.What makes you say StB is a balance issue?
It already doesn't do anything of note if the killer isn't tunneling, which seems like a pretty fair restriction to me.
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I agree, I've thought this for a while.
It's been a questionable detail for a while, but with the inclusion of perks like Clean Break or Conviction having stronger effects for the more lenient activation condition, I think it's safe to say Second Wind is definitely outdated. Modernising it would be a very welcome change.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4115261#Comment_4115261
Sure, but that's not
whySprint Burst was nerfed.Weird, people said that M1-Killers suffer because of Sprint Burst. Now Sprint Burst is irrelevant and all people still play their A- or S-Tier Killers.
But maybe you just misunderstood something on purpose again.
I don't want to be too rude here, but you know the actual reasons for things getting changed in the game aren't always one to one with random posts from internet complainers, right?
People say all kinds of things, that isn't evidence against or in favour of why any given change happened.
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@cammoking123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4115258#Comment_4115258
Because apparently SB was one of the reasons M1 killers weren't viable. Turns out everyone just wants to play with the overpowered killers.
Sure, but that's not why Sprint Burst was nerfed.
The perk was just too good, generally. It was too good against the weakest killers all the way up to some of the stronger killers, only a handful really got to ignore it.
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Why would you see more m1 killers after a basic balance change to an unrelated survivor perk…?
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@Mentally_Mechanical said:
Address why killers feel the need to tunnel instead of removing tunneling. Outright removing it won't do anything but make things worse.
What would you say is "the" reason killers feel the need to tunnel?
Ask ten players and they'll give you about eight different answers, and I'm willing to bet none of those answers will be "because it's the easiest way to get value" despite that being the honest and accurate one.
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I agree, but there should be restrictions to stop it getting out of hand.
Survivors should be immune to hook state gain twice in a row, but lose that protection if they perform a conspicuous action + when the exit gates are powered, and in addition post-unhook Endurance (but not Haste and Elusive) should be heavily scaled back to disencourage bodyblocking.
That said, though, making survivors immune to hook state gain does seem to be the healthiest way forward that I've seen in a long while, it doesn't have the issues that intangibility presents and doesn't seem like it can be abused if Endurance bodyblocking is removed.
It is if nothing else extremely worth testing. -
I'd hope so.
Distortion and Vigil have had their capacity to hard shut down entire groups of tools adjusted, it's high time Lightborn got the same treatment.
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@Piruluk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113826#Comment_4113826
In modern dbd survivor perk design:
If you cleansed a totem and stunned the killer and opened chest and unhooked a survivor, then this perk activates for the next 30 seconds you can remove a debuff from a teammate. If removed a debuff you become broken and your aura revealed to killer for 60 seconds. If you arent downed remove broken.
After this the perk deactivated for reminder of the trial. The perk also deactivates once gens are powered regardless.
How many modern perks are actually designed like that, though?
Obviously this is hyperbole so I'm not taking it literally, but the core of "multiple hoops for a meagre effect with heavy restrictions" is what I'm looking at here. Of the last like, eight survivor releases the only one I can think of that's even remotely like this is Road Life, for the most part if a new perk is bad it's just because the effect isn't good, not because of activation requirements or restrictions.
Maybe Rick's Come And Get Me making you crouch counts? But that's more quality of life than anything.Anyway, to OP's wider point - I don't think it's too difficult to understand, clearly the devs thought it affected Exhaustion too much on that PTB. I'd disagree, and personally I'd like to see Vigil get back Oblivious and Blindness for thematic reasons, but the chain of logic is pretty intuitive there imo. I just don't agree with it.
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@Wezqu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113708#Comment_4113708
You are saying that it beat the old Dead Hard? Old Dead Hard was more versatile than Sprint Burst was even before this nerf.
Old Dead Hard is why I tacked on "legitimate" in brackets. Outside of the most broken single perk in the game's existence, it's been the best for a decade.
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I've been playing with Sprint Burst pretty much non stop today and I think it's still pretty decent.
It doesn't seem like it's an instant chase-ender if you use it while a killer's approaching, which is a knock to its strengths for sure, but it also still has its uses and it's not bad to get that much extra distance before a chase starts. Holding onto it and 99ing it seems still strong (though I kinda suck at doing that lol) and it still lets you zip out of the way of certain attacks.
I'll have to get some more experience playing against it before I can form a full opinion, but first impressions seem pretty positive.
Kinda wild to say, but I do think it's not the best Exhaustion perk anymore. Ten years of it being the completely uncontested best (legitimate) Exhaustion perk in the game, and now it passes along the crown to Lithe…
Still, it's comfortably sitting alongside the other good Exhaustion perks, so not a huge loss. -
Yes, anything that does as much or more damage than a basic kick counts towards the limit.
Stuff that just makes the generator regress automatically, like Ruin, doesn't count.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113282#Comment_4113282
But you're not really making an argument about the kind of impact it had, just about its severity.
It's okay that you don't particularly care that a 4-perk healing build is worse, but the point is that it IS worse, and thus less worth running, which takes it off the table, and thus reduces variety.
The point I'm making is that the severity is so low that functionally nothing changed.
Technically, sure, a handful of very niche things are weaker enough that some may choose to not run them anymore, but that's such a minuscule effect that I really do think it's worth disagreeing when someone says it's destroying perk variety. There's a pretty big difference between those two statements.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4112989#Comment_4112989
Most builds unaffected, most affected builds still perfectly fine, a few edge case builds made more inefficient than they already were.
That's the exact problem, though. The builds you see the most of, did not get changed. The builds you see the least of, did get nerfed.
So it takes away from what we have too little of, while leaving intact what we have too much of. It just hurts perk variety.
It takes away extremely little, though. Even then, the builds it actually severely affects were already not very good, so presumably that's not why people were running them to begin with.
Almost everything is either fully unaffected or only mildly affected, that's kind of the point. It's a system for providing a better baseline, not for seriously affecting what people currently use. Perk variety barely changed either from actual viability or even from pickrate, at least from what I've seen for the latter, because that wasn't the goal to begin with.
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Distortion's currently a pretty damn good aura protection perk, so I wouldn't say it needs major changes. All I'd do with it is let it have both tokens at the start of the trial, and even that isn't necessary - it still blocks a good chunk of auras and gives you info on what the killer's running, so it's no slouch at all.
I'd also highlight Self Preservation as a good aura blocker perk - frankly it's a little too good, but for now it's a really good counter to aura builds. We See You is also pretty nice as an info perk, though of course it doesn't cloak your aura.
With Steadfast in the game to help ease the time investment, you could also consider Shadow Step for doing gens without fear of being sniped by a random aura, though of course you need to be wary of spending too much time keeping boons up.
The bottom line is, aura counters and stealth in general are in a pretty good spot at the moment, with only a handful of problematic sources of auras (usually because of the killer using them more than the perks themselves) and a decent stable of counter tools of varying levels of directness.
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4112989#Comment_4112989
Your perception of "a tiny portion of it", is highly influenced by simply seeing META ran a lot of times.
Dbd, and its slow destruction of perk variety has always been an attack on stacking perks, which is why you may not notice it as much;
1. Spine Chill vaulting speed being changes, was an attack on stacked vaulting perks
2. Exhaust status effect was an attack on stacked movement burst perks
3. Old unrelenting change was a result of stacked effects
4. The current diminishing returns killing movement speed, vaulting speed, gen speed, healing speed builds, unhook speeds etc.
All of this has exclusively lessened build variety. Not increased it, not kept it neutral. Exclusively diminished it. So again, just because it's not META, and these builds aren't ran nearly as often, because they were never too strong to begin with, doesn't mean that these changes haven't completely destroyed an entire class of builds.It's more influenced by the fact that there are only so many effects where you even can run four of the same thing, since running two of the same thing usually still works with a couple outliers.
Now, I won't argue with the idea that technically this does reduce perk build viability because nothing was added, but again - there's a huge breadth of perk build variety out there which doesn't involve stacking effects at all, and a lot of stacking effect combos still work after this system.
It is, again, anything more than three of the same modifier in most scenarios where it actually has any meaningful effect for making things non-viable, and that is a really small portion of build crafting variety.Plus, it is worth mentioning, because this was meant to be a change to make future balance changes easier and healthier, anything that comes out of the next midchapter counts as stuff added because of the DR system.
I also want to clarify, because I've only implied it so far: Actual healing speed builds are completely fine and largely unaffected. It's only stacking three or four healing speed buffs that's affected. Same goes for most other affected categories.
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4112986#Comment_4112986
You just confirmed that it lessed perk variety. Just that it didn't shake up the META, lol.
So yes, we see less perk variety now, less stacked meme healing builds and similar stuff, and more just meta builds. Because that's all we have left atp.Sorry, I definitely am not following.
Most builds unaffected, most affected builds still perfectly fine, a few edge case builds made more inefficient than they already were. How does that destroy variety? A handful of individual builds made arguably non-viable but that weren't incredible in the first place doesn't seem particularly destructive to me.
DBD has a huge breadth of potential variety when it comes to crafting builds and Diminishing Returns affected only a tiny portion of it.
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I really don't agree that this system is destroying perk variety at all. Most of the really good perk combos in this game aren't affected at all, and there are quite a few builds that are affected by DR without being made non-viable by it.
Basically the only things that are affected are the silly gimmick builds with four of the exact same modifier stacked on top of one another, and even then I'm pretty sure healing ones specifically still provide a crazy fast heal. I just don't see this effect on perk viability that others say it's had.
With the upcoming midchapter patch having partial focus on buffing things related to Diminishing Returns, I especially don't think it's a problem right now. Am I missing something, what would you say causes this system to destroy perk variety?
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Oh hey, this thread's back lol
I'll update my thoughts about Steadfast, then. I think the devs made the right call in moving away from specifically permanent progress and towards a different method of protecting gen progress, I think that's the smartest way to still fulfill the broad brief without clinging to the one specific word that made this perk really difficult to balance.
And, in fact, this new version of the perk seems pretty decent. 10% repair speed is nothing to sneeze at for yourself, plus it buffs your teammates, plus it slows regression. Not bad for a boon, and it pairs nicely with other boons for different reasons, so plenty to like. Not amazing, but far from terrible.
That said, I had the same opinion during the PTB that I have now, which is that I wish it leaned further into reducing killer slowdown. Instead of slowing the rate of regression, I'd love to see this perk halve generator explosion percentages and generator blocking durations for gens in its radius, as a more direct counter to the current meta.
Killers got a similar tool in Under Your Thumb that could, hopefully, put some pressure on perk choices to diversify the meta. Steadfast doing the same for slowdown would be a really nice pair to that, without requiring perk nerfs or sweeping mechanical changes to broaden perk variety in the meta. -
For the record, to my knowledge chests haven't ever been shown by maps unless you had Detective's Hunch, which made that info pretty redundant.
It's genuinely surprising to me that this clear gap in what the item should clearly track - as everything else it tracks or has ever tracked bar the weird new iridescent addon is a static map object - wasn't rectified when they overhauled maps more recently. The rework to keys was damn near perfect, but the map rework left a lot to be desired imo.
As someone above said, let them show gens, chests, and maybe totems basekit. I'd say either ditch the Windows effect or make that a second button press for no extra charge consumption, maybe make it the brown addon- I don't think it's really used much, but I could be wrong and there's nothing wrong with increasing options for the most part.
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I was going to make a similar post myself, it's a good strong effect in theory but the numbers are just flat out too low.
I'd probably suggest something around ten seconds for both survivor auras. The killer one can be shorter, if BHVR are worried about it- frankly I wouldn't even care if they removed that part entirely, the team info is far more useful.
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@DNet89 said:
They could make the hook notification silent like they tired with the Anti tunneling/slugging PTB last year. Or at the very least add it to some a low usage perk like Low Profile or Borrowed Time.
Slippery Meat is the perfect pick for that, it's thematic and also a universal perk so everyone has access to it.
The unhook notification does have legitimate use, so tying this effect to a perk is more reasonable imo
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@DodoSwarm said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4111841#Comment_4111841
aren't really challenged by very much
okay man we'll just ignore the fact that even without a slowdown that high mobility killers barely lose distance on you I guess. They are the "challenge" to something that needs to be countered. now they are providing a counter to a counter against already strong killers.
Also, again, this is really important, Under Your Thumb isn't making Exhaustion perks non-viable, that really matters here.
If you mean in the sense that Under Your Thumb won't be in every game then yeah, you're right. but that's not a good counterargument. this is, again, why I brought up vigil. "nerfed because too consistent of a counter against too many status effects" survivor doesn't have very many negative effects that they cause for the killer, but they do have a very consistent couple of status effects, Haste is the top among them. UYT will do the exact same thing to survivor gameplay that Vigil does to negative status effects except it is stronger because it isn't reducing the timers it's reducing the actual effect. "It can be broken" okay and old Circle of Healing could be exploited and Snuffed. it is punishing survivors for using their kits well. high tier killers have the benefit of the pallet density update being relatively meaningless already, as well as the all too common gens around relative deadzones, Exhaustion Haste perks are the counterplay to this.
And, the sidepoint still is that this game continues to add things that do not feel like being beaten by skill on the survivor end but rather being forced to lose by playing the right way, we are supposed to evade the killer, we bring perks to better do that, we have a gameplan to escape or prolong a chase in an optimal point of the map where something like Balanced Landing shines, we make it all the way there by playing well and then get killed not because the killer is better or outplays us with power but because we're forced to have almost no perk value from an external source. Perks and Powers should not have this effect, though that is a different conversation.It isn't going to make Exhaustion perks non-viable because it's a hex and you can account for that.
Either by going in without adjustments and cleansing it after it lights, or if you want to be safer about it, bringing anti-totem perks. Exhaustion perks are still completely viable in matches without this perk and in matches with it, there's just some risk to the latter if you don't prepare for it.
All this perk should really do is prompt you to think about your build a little more at most, and that's only if it properly gets popular.
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@DodoSwarm said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4111831#Comment_4111831
you're arguing Variety by removal of Viability. Exhaustion perks are specifically used right now because of how overbearing the killer meta is, and there is very little that isn't niche that is consistently viable for especially solo queue.
Variety needs to be brought about by Increasing the variety of Viability, not by making things unviable to the point where the choice doesn't matter.That's definitely wrong, there's a huge swath of completely viable perks that are overlooked for a variety of different reasons.
You don't actually need Exhaustion perks, strictly speaking, they're just very useful and aren't really challenged by very much. You could, right now, opt to use all kinds of different perks and builds for the same purpose, similar purposes, or completely different playstyles altogether, there just isn't much pushing any given player to do that.
Also, again, this is really important, Under Your Thumb isn't making Exhaustion perks non-viable, that really matters here.
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@DodoSwarm said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4111823#Comment_4111823
The way to change an already relatively narrow survivor meta is not to make the meta unviable its to make the other survivor perks more usable and more consistent. The Judgement herself outright destroys a ton of perk value and even game interaction like flashlight saves, it can't be both ways so on one end, people are going to be taking those things out of their builds, and on the other hand… ironically among the best perks to counter judgement, movement perks… are being flatlined by a totem which judgement can repeatedly interrupt and other killers who are more oppressive in chase can use to 100% ensure downs. awesome.
That's exactly what this is doing, though.
Exhaustion perks aren't being removed or weakened, they are exactly as strong in their own right as they were, minus SB's nerf this patch of course.
However, if this perk gets popular, when equipping an Exhaustion perk you may pause and consider how you want to account for that.No matter what decision is made (outside of just ignoring UYT existing, I guess) it will add more variety. Non-Exhaustion chase perks look better in comparison, and totem-related perks also look better in comparison.
The survivor meta is currently fairly narrow (though not nearly as bad as it used to be) primarily because a lot of the best stuff doesn't really get challenged very easily, not because most other tools are flat out non-viable. Additions like this could, in theory, do more for diversifying the meta than a handful of small buffs could.
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@DodoSwarm said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4111816#Comment_4111816
its different because one effects survivors movement and perk choices directly, not as the result of a killers power but as a result of a perk. and when paired with the others makes it unreasonable. this post wouldnt be made if it was decreasing haste by 15%, that's still strong. 35% basically eliminates the effect of again, the most mainstay and common survivor perks especially in the current gamestate. its not like its a niche counter to a perk you don't see often… when I do play killer I see Lithe specifically all the time, if I am playing Leatherface, as I do and I have bamboozle and Under Your Thumb you are dying at shack and going into the basement and your game is over because you aren't making distance with lithe and if you don't have lithe and you are just looping the shack I will just bamboozle it and get you anyway… and if we're being realistic Leatherface SUCKS compared to high tiered killer, I just play him to meme around on. no distance against Kaneki and Myers is outright terrible, sure blood favor is strong and it blocks pallets, it doesn't physically change my survivors ability to move around. filler pallets are useless against mobility killers anyway, so you use an exhaustion perk. but, if they have both then you're just outright dead, no distance no pallet, nothing…time to get camped and tunneled…
Exhaustion perks being mainstay perks is why I say it could be healthy for the overall meta.
A perk like this being strong puts pressure on survivors to potentially change their builds without actually needing to nerf any of the popular perks or classes of perks. If you run a lot of Exhaustion perks, this perk being strong and popular could push you towards considering other kinds of chase perks, or maybe shifting to a different playstyle entirely.
Or, if you really like your Exhaustion perks and just want to keep using them, then the pressure might push you to sub out one of your other perks and replace it with something like Detective's Hunch to find totems, or Counterforce to cleanse them faster, or Overzealous to benefit more from the cleanse, etcetera.
Introducing strong perks like this is a healthier and more organic way of slowly changing the meta than just doing a full meta shakeup patch and nerfing everything. Because this perk can be dealt with from so many angles, it's probably pretty good for the game that it's strong.
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@DodoSwarm said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4111799#Comment_4111799
Vigil is relevant because it shows a pretty obvious disregard for survivor in my opinion, Vigil is being nerfed extremely hard and even so much that it effects exhaustion less than it did before. at the same time there's another hex totem that totally destroys mainstay distance perks like SB, Lithe, and Balanced.
Effectively this perk, plus BHVRs Vigil Nerf is gutting every exhaustion perk in every match where its active. it's not a matter of "It won't be in every match" yeah no kidding, but you think the already bad game experience against killers you have to hold W against like artist and knight, or already extremely easy to play movement killers like the Ghoul is going to feel anything less than TERRIBLE when this perk is around? the counterplay to the knight is to make distance with something like lithe and outlast the guard as picking the banner is not often viable, now no distance. the counterplay against artist is to hold W, against myers its often hold W to a stronger area… that's what exhaustion haste perks are for specifically… "oh shoot, holding W is the best viable counterplay for me? Sick i'll just negate all haste perks that are used to make distance. already strong killers are going to disproportionately benefit from this much more than M1 killers are, that's a recurring problem of its own…
already a ton of saves against camping and tunneling killers are bad in solo queue, usually it ends up with a hook trade one way or another. its extremely common for killers to camp and tunnel at 5 as well, and if you're relying on an exhaustion perk to get past a proxy camping killer while they are distracted they get a notification you tried and you also get no distance and it goes from maybe a hook trade to definitely a hook trade, that's stronger value than Blood Favor, which is an insanely strong hex. and, mind you… Saving a camped, tunneled person from a high mobility killer, or even a damn bubba requires a whole team. nobody is cleansing that totem because they are trying to get their teammate off of a hook.
There are different Tiers of Hex totems, some that are powerful but more in a manageable and not as upfront threatening way (Ruin), some that suck apart from other perks or specific builds (Shoutout Huntress Lullaby), and some that are extremely dangerous and have to be dealt with right way and encourage a "Drop what you're doing and get rid of the totem attitude" (Devour Hope, Blood Favor) as we all know hex totems are RNG, that means that RNG can be very good as well.
Particularly problematic is the fact that this perk is not able to be cleansed until after someone is hooked. this is just digging the survivor experience further into a hole, it falls into a bit of its own category too as a hex that outright punishes you for using a perk you brought. like I said, balanced landing actually gets you no distance at all.The sticking point for me here is that I don't see how Under Your Thumb contributes to any of these things specifically because it's a hex, and it's not a weird or funky hex that relights or targets specific survivors or anything.
It's just a hex, and it'll be the same as other strong hexes; it might mess you up in one or two chases, but once you know it's in play, it can be removed. Same as something like Blood Favour or Devour Hope, it might be obnoxious in full totem defence builds, but that's not any different to the current staples and those builds are getting a key component dismantled (at least hopefully) next patch.This is kind of the ideal perk to be strong, as far as I'm concerned. It's strong, but only because it counters the current meta, and it's also strong in ways that can be worked around or negated entirely depending on your loadout choices and gameplay.
If multiple survivors across the board choose off-meta tools to respond to seeing Under Your Thumb often, especially the ones that are useful when the killer doesn't have this perk, that's a good thing. That broadens the meta and brings in more variety.
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@DodoSwarm said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4111794#Comment_4111794
The Look is part of the problem. Already Vigil being nerfed has been extremely controversial, and even people who think it needed a bit of a nerf tend to disagree with the fact it is getting totally gutted, at the same time there is an uproar over a projected nerf to The Judgement pre-release (And after playing against the Judgement I do understand why people were upset, I don't think the nerf was necessary, especially not if they had added the visual effect as a warning) and the Devs clearly listen to the player outrage about the Judgements Nerfs but totally ignore the outrage regarding vigil and a continued worsened state of playing Survivor.
Mind you The Judgement totally renders dozens of perks unusable because she doesn't hook people very often, so you have an update that essentially blows up a good generalized survivor perk (Granted it was pushed back until an upcoming patch), releases a killer that with time will be insanely rough to deal with, and adds a perk that stomps vigil even farther into the ground as well as nerfing off-hook endurance pretty significantly.
And What about killers that are both very oppressive and can defend totems? it just seems shortsighted. It would be different if we were talking about a 15% nerf to haste but its an insane 35% speed nerf from Haste Exhaustion Perks. as i mentioned pair that with hindered from Wesker, or just the general movement ability of The Ghoul or Blight. Balanced Landing makes no distance at all anymore under that. The perk is way too strong, if it was a 15% nerf it was very strong just like Blood Favor is very strong. it will further encourage people to get off of gens and look for the totem immediately too which is a pretty bad recurrent stall in solo queue.I don't really see the connection between Vigil and this perk. Five other perks were nerfed this patch too, that's just something that happens alongside new perks, even strong ones.
As for it being too strong, it is a hex, isn't it meant to be strong? It should be an effect that makes you want to go out and cleanse the totem to stop being affected by it, that's kinda the whole point.
I'm sympathetic to TOTH making it a problem, but that perk's getting reworked next patch, so like I said: worst case scenario, swap off Exhaustion until then.
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I'll admit to not having played on this patch just yet (hopping on later tonight), but surely this being a hex means you can play around it?
You could bring anti-hex perks like Counterforce, use more active totem perks like Overzealous, or swap from Haste to some other kind of build. Worst case scenario is you swap off Exhaustion perks until next patch when TOTH is reworked, and while that's annoying I don't think it's that big of a deal.
Personally I suspect it'll probably be popular so I'll likely sub in a map with the totem-finding addon for some of my builds, that should probably do it. Failing that, something without Exhaustion or a full totem build should do nicely against this.
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@Alen_Starkly said:
I feel like the devs have missed again. They refuse to hear that chase time is the best indicator of skill. Not perfect, but the best.
- chase time: you can last in chase longer? your MMR goes higher. you can down a survivor faster? your MMR goes higher
- macro decisions and game sense: unfortunately very hard to calculate by the game, so it cannot be used. Otherwise it would be a great indicatior of skill
Flawed things to base MMR off:
- how many gens you've done: you doing 3 corner gens should't make your MMR go up, especially if you've caused a 3-gen and/or the killer didn't really care to defend gens much out of 3-gen.
- surviving: you could hide all match and get exit gates easily, if you have sole survivor and/or the killer has low mobility and/or the doors are far apart. it's RNG for the major part, not an indicative of skill. Your teammate could loop the killer for 4-5 gens and die due to tunneling. Your MMR goes up because you escaped, and theirs down because they died… very flawed MMR calculation premise
- healing, unhooking: depends on perks of you and your teammates, and whether the killer cares about interurpting your heals. not really an indicative of skill
Isn't it just as easy to think of ways that chase time can be just as, if not moreso, misleading as the other options?
Take a survivor who lasts really long in their chases because they're willing to just instantly drop every pallet they come across and waste the killer's time that way. Their chase might be longer, but not because of skill, and their teammates' chases will be shorter, but not because of skill.
Time to down can also be misleading on killer, since it depends a little on who you're playing and what perks you're bringing, not to mention short chases aren't enough to be a good killer player at higher levels.
Personally, I've never understood why win/loss doesn't work as a broad metric, but failing that it makes some sense to give a wide array of variables a small amount of weight each, especially if win/loss are still weighted the most. I'm a little curious what those variables actually are, but I don't if BHVR have revealed that or plan to reveal that.
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Complete intangibility is one of the stronger options, but it does have the snag of potentially making certain types of saves uncounterable, which is a problem I've never come up with a good solution for personally.
My proposal these days is a bit more subtle: When a survivor's unhooked, they get a mark on their character hud. That mark can only be on one survivor at once, and disappears when performing a conspicuous action. If a survivor with that mark is hooked, they do not gain a hook state.
Pair that with a hard scaling back of post-hook Endurance (removing it from perks entirely and scaling the basekit down to 8 seconds maximum) and you have a situation where focusing someone out of the match from word go is impossible, but survivors can't bodyblock without being put on the ground so it's much harder to weaponise.
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Agreed. I don't really like the First's version of this addon either, it's just not a particularly healthy addon design imo. Even if they gave it to someone like Sadako I'd feel weird about it.
Not sure what it should be reworked to, though. Honestly if they reworked it so it allowed you to kick generators to exit Omnipresent Evil the way you can with pallets it wouldn't be as egregious, but even that would probably be too strong.