DodoSwarm
DodoSwarm
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@drsoontm said:
I really don't mind these forums closing: I haven't come here in months or years. (I only know because a friend told me about this.)
But hearing that the Reddit echo-chamber and Discord are considered worthy of the devs' attention makes me concerned for the future of the game: even more than I already am, that is.
Reddit's voting system naturally favors whatever opinion is already popular within its community. Unpopular or minority viewpoints don't merely get disagreed with: they tend to get pushed out of sight, which makes it a pretty poor place for gauging the full range of player opinions. I expect comments arguing in favor of killers to suffer from exactly that problem.
Discord has almost the opposite problem. It's essentially an endless, fast-moving conversation: whatever you write is quickly buried under hundreds of newer messages. There's little permanence, discussions are difficult to follow after the fact, and useful arguments or feedback effectively disappear once the conversation has moved on. That's hardly a substitute for a forum where a discussion can remain visible, structured, and searchable.
Ah well. I'm already playing way less than I used to (way less killer, that is: comparatively, I'm playing survivor more than ever).
At the rate I'm losing interest in the game, this might not affect me at all.
I expect comments arguing in favor of killers to suffer from exactly that problem.
Reddit is purely the opposite, almost always it's killer players on the reddit.
The sentiment is true though, Reddit isn't a valid substitute for a forum. -
@HoodedWildKard said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/472646/upvote-this-to-protest-the-forum-shutdown
I can add that I'm never buying cosmetics again. No rifts, no paying auric cell character purchase. Idk how much money they spend keeping the forums live but it can't be much. I used to spend on the game fairly regularly but this move has genuinely put me off supporting the company.
I was already not doing that, but was open to doing so again if they moved the game in a right direction or even made any real attempts at dealing with the games issues but not only did they not do that, they're closing down the only realistic form of voicing genuine concerns and opinions… moved from "I might buy cosmetics again" to "I doubt I'll reinstall the game again" pretty quick
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@Nazzzak said:
I looked up the DBD reddit and it was just full of memes. Good luck with that BHVR.
I've tried having game discussions for Halloween on Reddit, it's straight up impossible… Reddit just isn't made for it. that's why the move is so bizarre, it's like incomprehensible that a company (assuming they actually want user feedback, i'd guess they don't) would move forums to either Reddit or Discord, neither are for that.
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@LordGlint said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/6ATGU65HHFYX/1000002667.jpg
Just thought it odd that the locations with a difference of like 5 minutes have a lower incentive than the locations with a difference of 3 minutes.
maybe the incentives were recently changed for the regions with shorter timers and that's why they're now lower?
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I'll be there, as much as I dislike the direction of the game I love the roots behind it, and forum environments are the only healthy game discussion environments available.
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@Arcturus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4119859#Comment_4119859
I mean to be fair, I think a lot of that simply has to do with different people finding different things fun. I found opinions even more divided with killers to play as, as everyone has different preferences with their mains. Everybody enjoys different things and dislikes different things, so when you get a mush of all that in one place it kind of all gets squeezed to the middle.
I will say I would love to see the results of that poll from the anniversary that included questions about every killer's enjoyability.
I think it still points to a problem though, I get what you're saying, but half of the votes being a 1 and half of the votes being a 10 is still a problem isn't it because half of the votes hate a design and it's important to understand why. for a design to be healthy for a game a majority of people should like it, but it's also entirely unreasonable to assume BHVR could just magically make every killer likeable… some things are going to be liked more than others of course. it's the fact that so few of them are rated "enjoyable" on either side that points to a problem. many of them have shared survivor and killer opinions too.
Ghoul is below average on both sides, Clown is below average on both sides, twins are below average on both sides, skull merchant, Plague, Myers, Nurse, ETC… if so many of these killers are in such bad enjoyment state then don't players deserve better? I have no problem monetarily supporting a game that shows a real concern for player enjoyment regarding core gameplay…
I also understand that this specific poll was a very small sample size though, when you consider how many people really play DBD, that's why it's very frustrating that BHVR doesn't make their polls public, or really any other meaningful stats.
It's also affecting game balance, a large reason Vigil was just gutted was "because it has an effect on too many things" especially The Clown, and Freddy's killer powers, but neither the clown nor freddy are a compelling experience for people playing as or against them, and the Clown is just pretty much hated by everyone on both sides. if nobody likes them, change them.. I think these polls being public would help push BHVR in a more accurate discussion anyway, if everyone got one vote then the "loudest voices" wouldn't be able to win, it's genuinely a matter of these things are liked or disliked, and that should be public knowledge for a game like this. -
I think it's interesting that the average enjoyment when playing as or against the various killers is sitting at about a 5.2/10.
18/43 killers in this poll were a "below average" experience for survivors, and 16/43 killers in this poll were a "below average" experience for the people playing as them.
You may also note that only about 1/4 of the killers (a little less than that) are considered an above average (slightly enjoyable) experience for survivors to play against (6/10+) and NONE of them are a very enjoyable experience (8/10+).
On the flipside a little less than 1/4 of the killers are considered an above average experience for the killers to play as (again, 6/10+)
and the very highest ranked killer for enjoyment is Jason who is at 6.52/10 (Very close to the Dark Lord who is 6.5)
Neither playing as or against any specific killer reached a "Very Fun" status. to me, this says maybe BHVR should focus on that aspect of the game, general enjoyment instead of perk balance. no matter how perks change if a killers design isn't drawing players who like to play as or even against them, maybe some work should be done to improve those experiences across the board.
I'd like to see this same poll extended to everyone in the DBD community in the form of a title screen poll and for BHVR to publicly release the results. -
Unfortunately I got DBD on Epic, good luck to you guys though, I'm not supporting this game or studio with my playtime anymore either regardless
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@ShanoaLegendaryPlz said:
Its kinda like a mini taste of what the death of dbd will feel like.
idk, at this point I think it's been a long time coming… DBD has no consistent competitor and BHVR has listened to the regular players less and less, the closing of the forums after banning a ton of people for mediocre things is a signifier of that… they don't even want genuine feedback from players anymore… I will miss the people here and always love the horror setting, but when a studio shuts out the players ability to communicate with them, especially in a game like this, I think the game's deserving of a crash… then the licenses it holds can go somewhere else to a studio interested in actually doing justice to the horror setting.
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@T1MEXII said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/472588/future-of-dead-by-daylight-forums
As controversial as this sounds, I really don't think this is too bad. Besides, it's our own faults for abandoning the official forums. This wouldn't of happened if we stayed. Some of are here, obviously one is myself. Still, Discord is the most popular gaming chat. Nothing wrong with prioritising the majority, it is what I have been saying for a while. You can't please everyone, prioritise the biggest audience you can, which is Discord. People will complain obviously, I get that. Still you are proving my point, end of an era but was a good run. I will still give my stupid ideas on here until the very end, ok now I'm being over dramatic but peace out.
The problem is that Discord is not a valid substitute for a Forum, ever. It's not even a matter of whether or not BHVR can properly moderate an official discord or anything like that, it's Discord the platform. every single official discord I have ever been in has reinforced the point that it's totally impossible to have a forum on discord. the app isn't suited for it, even with the update that brought threads to discord. it's a different kind of app entirely, very few of the discussions on discord are ever related to the actual game in a meaningful way and a sizeable portion of responses you'll get for genuine questions or ideas will be unserious and trolling and that's for communities without the toxicity issues DBD has.
You will just have no reasonable space to do what you do here which is put forth brainstorm ideas for things that could be done, that's the only types of discussions I have seen you post here… those kinds of discussions just don't exist on discord communities. -
@cammoking123 said:
Reddit is a killer main circle jerk. I like this community cause it gives both sides. But maybe Discord won't be so bad. There's also communities on Facebook which are pretty good.
discord is horrible, and not even just the DBD discord, i mean official discords in general, they're just unusable. tens of thousands of people and 99% of them talking about unrelated nonsense… discord wasnt designed to hold forumlike discussions and it can't support it in a meaningful way. there's no reasonable way to find old discussions either or look for old information, Discord is made for a state of "now" as in what's happening right now, and it's good for that… but its TERRIBLE for longevity of conversation.
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@Arcturus said:
Whether I heavily disagree, completely agree, or somewhat in-between with the takes of these people, @cogsturning @HoodedWildKard @NeverSolus @Nazzzak @DodoSwarm @Rokku_Rorru @zonkednb and @Aven_Fallen to name a few, it has been a great time reading your posts and comments, debating and interacting with you. I only properly became active on the forum in the last several months, and I'm sad to see this new home go, but thank you for indulging with me in my stupid thoughts
@HoodedWildKard said:
Ones i can name offhand
@CountOfTheFog of course.
@cogsturning @Skittlesthehusky @LordGlint @Nazzzak @Aven_Fallen @Rokku_Rorru @Arcturus @DodoSwarm @Shroompy @Wezqu @zonkednb @GentlemanFridge @100PercentBPMain @Your_Dad_Playing_DbD
It's been fun stumbling around in the fog with yall
It's been a good time y'all, maybe we'll meet again in some other cursed forum (definitely not in Discord or Reddit for my part) I love the horror genre so if we get dedicated forums for Halloween I'll be there
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@100PercentBPMain said:
I'll miss everybody, even the silly geese. I'm trying to just list one or two people but I'll just end up listing everybody.
I'll live on forever in your boxes.
I'm gonna open mine
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@Your_Dad_Playing_DbD said:
Giving the community’s most dedicated players the middle finger. Seems about right
fr, we were just talking in a thread about why people feel like quitting or have quit… here's a pretty big reason lol… they don't want our input
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IDK, I just became overly active here recently although I had asked a couple of questions over the years… I came to find out that there are people I heavily disagree with like @NeverSolus and @HexSlugged and people I heavily agree with like @cogsturning , @Nazzzak , and @GroovieAshes but I'm thankful for both sides because unlike the other platforms BHVR is switching to, I could have actual conversations with people here about the game, these kinds of discussions are just impossible on Reddit and Discord.. Steam Forums are barely even worth a mention because I don't know anyone that uses them.
Thanks for the conversations everyone -
@Wyndsor said:
Has nothing to do with age, I am gen-z and in my opinion these platforms are terrible for nuanced discussion and are rife with misinformation and bad moderation.
Forums are nice due to having a better layout and being much more structured. This decision is 100% a cost thing.every time I have ever used a community discord to find out any information it's nearly impossible… just straight up trolling and nonsense with a nearly impossible to return to chat style.
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@Mandy said:
I completely understand a lot of the sentiment here, I've been on these forums since before they opened and I have a lot of some very fond memories here - its been a wild ride with you all in some cases and I personally am very sad to be saying goodbye.
as long as it's relayed to the person / people who made this decision that the "sentiment" is not just that "we will miss the forums" so much as we all entirely understand and know how detached discord and reddit are from the real idea of a forum and it's another brick on the road you guys are paving towards seemingly disregarding the input and opinions from the entire playerbase on both sides. that's okay, message recieved.
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@Strange_Quark said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4119591#Comment_4119591
less money = good for company ig
i get it but ig i though it wouldnt be much money to keep forums open. pay for like a mod or an ai mod and for a server. this forum doesnt even have a lot of features. thought itd be cheap
it's definitely not too expensive for a company the size of BHVR. cutting the primary form of dedicated players gameplay discussions and shifting it to the absolute nightmare platforms of Discord and Reddit is actually insane. It's impossible to have a normal conversation in a community discord, just people trolling and talking about unrelated nonsense, Reddit is worse, it's just random sh-t post content.
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@Strange_Quark said:
i join and they shut down :(
I think I saw you saying you were new or newly returning to the game on another post, this is a VERY strong sign for you to quit while you're ahead… a game this big deleting its forums… extremely bizarre and bad look
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No, I used reddit for the first time this month really for the Halloween game because Discord is absolutely NOT an acceptable place to try and force forum content, the platform isn't made for that. and Reddit… is worse. I don't really want to interact on Reddit and definitely not in discord, I'll just entirely move on to another game.
Also, Steam Forums are a joke.
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woah lol… a game as big as DBD deleting its forums? i'm not joining discord or reddit for DBD… Forums like these for games are the only places people have a real ability to talk about the game in open conversation, Reddit is abhorrent and Discord is absolutely NOT made for discussions like the discussions this forum provides.
Another nail in the coffin for me, I planned to hang around here and keep an eye on the game, hoping it would move back in a better direction, now i'm just gonna uninstall it. -
@Your_Dad_Playing_DbD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4119485#Comment_4119485
Thanks for replying back - this is the kind of discussion that is constructive and enjoyable. I get what you’re saying now, and I can definitely get on board with that. I’m starting to see the part now that I was missing in prior discussions, about it not being that survivors don’t feel like they aren’t escaping frequently enough, but rather wanting more engaging and entertaining matches even if they aren’t escaping in most of their matches. The hard part is figuring out ways to do this without impacting the killer experience in a significantly negative way, and that’s where previous attempts have gone wrong.
Anyway, I understand more about where you and others are coming from now.I think people argue over the wrong things, I don't see how a greater appreciation for the basic game wouldn't benefit everyone. what I mean by that is basically that, while things have changed over the years mechanically, the actual core gameplay is just the exact same. that, by nature, is what's causing a much higher ratio of Survivor main fatigue over killer main fatigue because for people that play exclusively killer, there is real tangible content in the form of a new killer and killer power/addons in every single chapter, but for the survivor it's three more (usually bad) perks and a different skin to run them on.
When you consider that disparity and the fact that BHVR balances the game around perks rather than base gameplay, the survivor is disproportionately impacted. this is because changing perks is akin to changing basekit for survivors since they have no power and are bound to six bringable items (three of which are borderline useless, one of which is entirely useless (Fog Vial) and four perk slots (obviously 16 perk slots for an entire survivor team but lets be honest a very small percentage of survivors are picking perks to compliment their teammates perks, that's just SWFs, and a good portion of SWFs are just picking things to annoy the killer.
I would rather BHVR take an entire year, or even more than that, and instead of getting the next chapter or the next killer, they would just address the staleness of the actual core gameplay. at the heart of DBD is not a comp game, it's a horror game and when horror icons and original horror characters become bland stat merchants the game is failing for both sides. I'd reason that's for two things: when a killer is otherwise uninteresting the only thing to keep people playing them is whether or not they can win with them, that's why so many killer players are distressing over winrate/perk builds all of the time, because there's actually really not much to soundly differentiate the killers, if I wanted to win I would play blight over Ghostface because… Blight has better stats…. that's not good, not because Blight has better stats but because Killers should have draw for individuality not for stats. and this also negatively effects the survivors because it feels less like an engaging challenge to face the different killers and more "what form of pain is up next".
Ideally doesn't it benefit literally everyone to move the game in the direction of: Every killer alters the main objective (bend the game around the killers individually rather than bend the killers around the game) which doesn't mean load into an entirely different game, keep the core win conditions the same but I think every survivor player would appreciate solidified and important ways to interact with the killers that can actually help the team as opposed to most killer interactions being a net negative for the survivors… on the other side, killers have a reason to be played, even the ones with very low playrates right now because.. they're actually different, and not in a "better at 3 genning / better at chase / better at slugging kind of way, but in a way that's seriously different. and I think balancing survivor perks across the board, or killer perks for that matter… is even achievable, BHVR should always balance around the individual killers. if Blight is too strong, actually change the blight, or if the clown has an issue with a certain survivor perk… actually change the clown… expecting perks to be within the same realm of viability in an asymm game is just unreasonable and it's making people angry.
I say all of that to say, at the minimum, as a long time survivor player, I probably will not return to playing the game consistently unless something along these lines changes… nevermind tunneling/slugging/camping… the gameplay on the survivor side is stale and that's really not the fault of killer players when you boil it down to the basics of the game, we just haven't been given anything new that's worth doing… Invocations and Fog Vials are really it… -
@Arcturus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4119467#Comment_4119467
Yeah honestly the only killer I enjoy going up against out of the last 6 killer releases is Springtrap. I think between the killer designs and the patches that have been releasing in the past half a year, it really seems BHVR has been prioritizing the killer’s experience and the survivor experience is an afterthought.
I will say, Ghoul’s kit is actually pretty simple when you think about it, which is the one thing I can appreciate about it. However, there’s just so much that he can do that’s just plain frustrating or feels cheap. I’m about to finish up the data roundup from the poll I made a while ago (it took way longer than I thought it would and it made it hard to motivate myself to get it done) and Ghoul was the bottom most killer to play against.
I think Jason can be fun when he's played normally, but he's an especially obvious case of the reality that if something can be abused it will… Hex defense Jason is really unenjoyable… thematically I appreciate him though
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@Your_Dad_Playing_DbD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4119466#Comment_4119466
So you have >50% escape rate but still not having fun because you have to work hard to escape in most of your matches? What will it take to make you enjoy the game then? Sorry if that’s not what you’re intending to do, but that is what I am reading. What is the solution? Make matches even easier so that you don’t have to work as hard to escape, leading to an even higher escape rate? Let’s apply that expectation to all survivors. Then we get to escape rates well over 50% for everyone and now the killer role is miserable.
I honestly don’t know what it will take to make some of the survivor players here happy, and that’s the entire point I’ve been trying to make here and in many other threads. Even players with high escape rates say they are still not having fun, so what will it take for you to have fun? And how do you implement it without making the other side miserable?I would prefer a 40% escape rate for myself if it meant that the game was pushed in a more engaging direction. the purpose of what I am saying isn't "I want or need to win more" I don't actually care about my escape rate, I care about whether a match was fun, whether the challenges put forward actually encouraged me to continue to play the game. that is why I am so vocal on the "tunneling is bad" discussions, because BHVR is shooting survivor in the foot by endorsing killer strategies that suck the actually interesting engagement out of the game. I don't care if killer gets buffed to compensate for tunneling becoming impossible because the game would be more fun to play that way. I don't care about Survivor/Killer perk metas, I want perks on both sides to be fun and engaging rather than induce a sense of "dang it, they're running X and Y so I have to do Z even though it sucks to do.
If it takes a total removal of fun and engaging mechanics to truly balance DBD, then I don't want to play balanced DBD. right now Halloween is fantastic because it's just about enjoying the game for most people, I don't care if michael wins or civilians win, I care whether the match was fun. that obviously doesn't mean that the game should be made systematically unfair for one side of the game to enforce that, but it does mean that just because something is balanced in percentages (Survivor Escape Rate) doesn't mean it's well designed or well maintained. that's why the survivor perks being gutted is such a horrible decision in the eyes of so many people on here, because standout things are getting hammered into obscurity to make sure nothing stands out in any way… then you're left with…. kinda nothing interesting, and a lot of reasons to move on to something else. -
what's crazy is that his design is so frustrating that most of the hate gets pushed onto his hitscan auto-deep wounds but everything about him is obscenely obnoxious, he falls under most of the negative feedback categories from a survivor standpoint: Dashslop, Extreme Mobility, Free Hit, Annoying Audio, and a general design that empowers the most disliked strategy in the game, tunneling.
I think largely the Ghoul represents a problem in BHVRs design choices that seems to get worse which is not considering survivor enjoyment when facing against a killer, and that should be kind of a big focus… obviously how good a killer feels to play is the biggest thing but what good is that for the game when everyone hates dealing with them?
I mean Kaneki actually has nothing interesting or unique about him at all, he's got an overloaded kit, and is remarkably easy to play well and checks most of the boxes killers look for "Fast, chase pressure, easy to pick up, versatile in perk build options, etc" BUT he's soulless, he feels equally bland, there's actually nothing to him, he's just "anime guy" that laughs maniacally and jumps around… IDK why killers with genuine character and individuality seem to be in very short supply… -
@Your_Dad_Playing_DbD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4119311#Comment_4119311
”You are still failing to grasp why survivor is currently miserable, it has nothing to do with if you can win but how you must win in the current game”
Ok, well let’s focus on this then. You say it’s not an issue of how often you escape. What % of your matches do you think you escape? Let’s say you’re escaping at the average 40% of your matches. So in those matches where you’re escaping, you’re still miserable - why? If it’s tunneling/camping or some other objectionable killer strategy that you feel is the problem, but you’re still escaping, then I don’t understand what the issue is. Why does it matter how the killer plays if you still get out?
really bizarre way to word the end of that, maybe I am misunderstanding you but
"Why does it matter how the killer plays if you still get out"
seem to miss the entire point of anyone playing any game which is entertainment… why would people want to queue up for an experience that's just all around bad? I have played probably 80% of my time in DBD on solo queue and over the years it just became significantly more bad experiences than good, I still have an above average escape rate on my most played survivor (54%) but if every game feels like a nightmare to put the effort in to escape why would I keep playing?
Yeah Tunneling/Hook Camping/Slugging can all be played through but why would I do that? especially camping and slugging just remove interaction from a game built around intense interaction… and there's dozens of very popular games I could play in different genres that are actuallly designed to be competitive in this way if I wanted to have a full comp experience so why would I choose to suffer through a game that is absolutely not balanced and is absolutely not suited to comp, but is being forced into a comp box when I can just play an actual comp game which is designed to be engaging and playable for everyone? -
@Linkdouken said:
Cloverfield?
Haven't seen or heard of it, I'll check it out
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for me, although it's getting harder to do this as the games freedom of expression gets narrower and narrower, I prefer to play killers in a way that makes sense for that killer lorewise… IDC about my killrate although doing this tends to land my killrate around 65%
Playing survivor is always casual, I just want a "running from a slasher" experience, which is why the endorsement of toxic mechanics has ruined the game for me recently but if you're intent to play and generally not take things serious just find what appeals to you… a lot of the larger survivor CCs are just doing some random nonsense most of the time which seems to help. -
Yeah, you can see in real time right now with the Halloween game how fast the play to win no matter what mindset ruins an Asym games enjoyment. Launch weekend was incredible and everyone just enjoyed the setting for what it was, but it didn't take very long for people to find out what can be abused and start doing it, the good news is Illfonic seems to be intent on punishing that mindset over ruining the fun of the game for everyone else…
I have found BHVR is the opposite these days, BHVR is ruining the experience of the regular player for the sake of the people who have to be the best at everything and abuse every abusable mechanic to win all of the time even though DBD has no incentive to do that whatsoever, if BHVR had just put their foot down and stopped catering to those people and instead focused a lot more time on the excess of individual killers in the game as well as the horror atmosphere we might have a much different and much more enjoyable game for everyone right now.
Totally curb stomping perks is not doing anything but forcing people into running a narrower and narrower scope of perks and for what? obviously egregious things have to be dealt with in any game casual or not, but especially this latest patch just kind of showed a ton of random nerfs to things that were really in a fine state of being and did not need a nerf much less a total gutting… it's just hard to understand the mentality behind that.. "the top 0.5% of players is good with these things so the other 95.5% cant use them anymore? weird. -
I am kind of in favor for more abandon options on both sides in general. despite the overwhelmingly obnoxious comp focused feel that the game has developed over time it's roots are asymm and casual. it's a game with no rank and no real stakes and it should be treated as such. who cares if a killer wants to leave… I don't, if they aren't having fun they should be allowed to do something else. and the same goes for survivor side… just let them out. would solve an extreme amount of the toxicity in this game because you can almost always tell pretty quick if you're going to win or lose badly in solo queue for survivor and also as killer.
I know that's a very unpopular opinion, but I think killer abandons are fine, I mean idec if it auto ends the game or not, should let the survivors stay in the match and get whatever BP they might want, but also offer a free abandon for them too in the event the killer leaves -
@Strange_Quark said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4119189#Comment_4119189
but no offense y would i want to do that if id eventually end up like evryone here?
this game is in a very poor state right now for any casual players whether you want to play killer or survivor. there's a very very steep learning curve just for basic game knowledge and even though the actual marketing and draw of the game is "survive a killer" it's basically just cat and mouse atp, horror has been largely stripped from the game in about every way possible.
It kind of comes down to whether you want a competitive game of cat and mouse with a horror theme or a more horror centered experience. if you want the former, DBD is fine right now, if you want the latter it's not worth the time investment at all imo. -
@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4118314#Comment_4118314
I don't mind the idea of StB being nerfed - although people vastly overstate how powerful it is - and I also actually like the change from Exposed to Broken.
I only have an issue with the "using it once turns it off for other people" part. I don't think they should do that. Restricting it some other way could be fine, depending, just not that way.
That would be an example of a reasonable nerf, I do not understand why in the world BHVR consistently decides to nerf things by totally gutting them…
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@SpyUA said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4118653#Comment_4118653
How is seeing survivors aura is getting handheld?, the game doesn't become easier in any way (less map knowledge is the only thing which is barely anything compared to some other things). Elusive doesn't remove just aura, basically everything that killer can track the survivors with like the breathing sound or the scratch marks, it does make it harder to find survivors and if the killer didn't find anyone then they are kinda forced to comeback to hook as they know there's 2 survivors there they can start chasing and interrupt healing instead of wasting time looking for someone they don't even know is close.
If you think that seeing survivors aura is "hand holding" then please tell me you think the same way about seeing aura of pallets and windows (WoO and Five moves ahead).
Reading the aura's of players is not at all the same thing as reading the auras of static objects.
being able to run directly at a survivor instead of having to find them first is absolutely making the game easier, how would it not?
Elusive is a response to the extreme excess of aura reading perks in the game, because killers are very rarely using anything but aura reading to find people anymore. that is why it's handholding, and the problem with that kind of handholding is that I agree, Elusive IS unhealthy, but it's become necessary, which is denying average killer players the ability to track survivors even if they aren't running aura reading. Elusive is also more prevalent because perks that solely deny aura reads are extremely bad. Distortion got obliterated, and there was nothing like it to take it's place. -
@Arcturus said:
I've said the same thing for ages, the perk design is supposed to encourage hook spreading, but because you can continue to get value out of it even after tunneling a survivor out, many killers who hard tunnel from 5 gens still use it.
But you know, Windows of Opportunity, which was ironically less popular than Pain Res and is almost unused by experienced players, was too problematic so they had to change that instead.
it's actually worse than this, because Pain Res can be used on the same hook, which rewards tunneling even more because it takes a minute for survivors to realize what's going on but it effectively plays out like this in solo queue:
Hook Survivor
Pain Res procs
Proxy Hook
Tunnel Survivor, put them on hook again
Survivor Team realizes the killer is tunneling and has to become more involved
Force a hook trade or injure at the hook
Run down second survivor who goes for unhook and Scourge hook them, immediately tunnel first survivor to death
(2 Pain Res Procs and Dead Survivor)
Free Game.
Almost no interaction either, forcing players to come to the hook where they can't fight back, and at the same time you can abuse anti camp like this, hit them when they go for a save like they had any other choice, damage most progressed gen without even being there, One Survivor tunneled so they don't even really get to participate in the game, other survivors punished for the mandatory action of unhooking a teammate. BT on unhook is significantly shorter now too and BT the perk just got removed from the game effectively.
Also if you manage to get decently far from the hook Iron Grasp just got a pretty solid buff, wouidn't be surprised to see it more. -
@Mr_K said:
Perk tiers are built into the prestige system and would take a lot of effort to change. Besides, perk tiers are largely inconsequential to warrant such effort.
but that's a problem isn't it? It's like BHVR doesn't want to put in the work to do anything that takes time anymore… it's just the next survivor skins and the next slop killer at this point… I mean now players are making the killers for them (which I actually like, because it builds community engagement) which means you'd think they have more time to think of how to fix the longest lasting problems in the game
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@hermitkermit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4118463#Comment_4118463
I’m all for improved tutorials and I’ve advocated for killer bots in custom games for a long time so survivors can practice looping without learning entirely through trial by fire.
But I don’t think WOOs impact can be reduced to “people just need better tutorials.” It provides information in a game where that information constantly changes. From the maps, to map variants, to things you have no control over like used pallets. I wouldn’t be surprised if chase efficiency dips after the change, just like I’d expect killers to struggle if gen auras or scratch marks suddenly disappeared. Of course it’s possible for everyone to play without that kind of information, but the game is much more difficult and frustrating without it.
That’s why I’ve never understood the “run to yellow = brainless” argument. Killers use blood, scratch marks, gen auras and sound cues to reduce uncertainty all the time. Nobody seriously argues that a killer following scratch marks means they don’t know how to chase or a killer going to a red aura generator means they don’t know how to patrol a gen. Information about the resources around you is valuable regardless of whatever role you’re playing, and having that information doesn’t automatically mean you know what to do with it.
Doubt they'll ever do killer bots in customs because I for one will just play customs. I have every perk and every character and P100 survivors, If I can avoid horrible toxic strategies employed by killer, I'm just playing casually on customs all of the time.
I have a feeling a lot of people share the sentiment of being utterly fed up with the state of the game on the survivor side so it would just make queue times longer. -
@MorelClaudette said:
Funny to read that OP seemingly only wants to play 2v8 at this point while I just had 5 or 6 games in a row with a Nemesis involved and am close to uninstalling just because of this game mode and THESE GODFUCKING ZOMBIES EVERYWHERE. Or at least wait until it is over.
2v8 has become so obnoxious (and boring for that matter) that 3 weeks in a row is just…I don't even have words for this emotion. I also don't think it was the greatest idea to mix 3 weeks of this event with the MMR reset.
If not even their big DBD Creators play this mode, a developer maybe should acknowledge there's something wrong with it, no? The only reason to play this right now is the FOMO quests (which thankfully can be partly done in 1v4).
Which is frustrating enough on it's own.
it's because it's not even possible to give survivor something as significant as giving the killer another killer to work with within the current gameplay. so the devs went about it by making survivors overly strong, which still isn't satisfying for anyone because it's nothing new it's just stat changes.
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@Zakon05 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4118381#Comment_4118381
StB does remove progress from the killer. It can transfer a hook stage from someone who is on death hook to someone who has no hook states. The problem is when you use it like this when no one is being tunneled. If you don't understand how important it is to have a survivor on death hook even when not tunneling then I legitimately don't know what to say to you, you don't have enough understanding of the game yet and you probably need to play more killer - a lot more killer, so that you can get a high enough MMR to go against teams who know how to coordinate multiple StBs.
Borrowed Time's problem currently is that Babysitter just mostly does its job better. Babysitter provides a longer haste boost, strengthens the initial haste boost, and removes scratch marks and pools of blood. And it lets the unhooker see the killer's aura as a bonus, so they know whether it's safe to heal under hook or if they need to warn the unhooked person if the killer is coming back to hook.
I don't know if Babysitter is still a perk available to all survivors or not as I owned Steve before his initial removal and had him at Prestige 3 already when he came back. If it still counts as a generic perk and not a licensed perk, then it even has an edge over BT in terms of availability because you don't even need to prestige Bill to get it.
The times where BT is a better altruistic anti-tunnel perk than Babysitter are very rare and situational, mostly owing to extending the endurance by 10 seconds. It needs to be the very specific situation of the survivor being hooked in a large deadzone against a tunneling killer who can stay on top of them for 10 seconds. Mainly this just counters a tunneling Deathslinger, as they will sometimes spear an unhooked survivor and count down the endurance.
I think that BT should have its current effect buffed rather than being reworked into this new weird and very situational Dead Hard partner perk.
gotta love the classic "You're inferior to my understanding" rebuttal to a conversation. I've played the game for years, nobody on the forums is just brand new to DBD. Survivors are beating you with counterplay. I'm getting sick and tired of the weird double standard that it's only fair when killers can do things that inconvenience the survivor and not vice versa. Survivors are supposed to set you back, StB Is not removing progress from the killer, it's distributing it amongst survivors, that's a fundamentally different thing.
This is why I made that post today regarding perk changes not changing the "meta" of DBD. so long as camping and tunneling are prevalent in DBD as valid strategies, then it's equally valid for survivors to have valid recourse. if you don't like that tradeoff of design, then join the party of people vehemently against these design choices.
Right now, Tunneling is extremely viable and also encouraged, with these perk changes, survivors are encouraged to "suck it up" and have no agency to respond.
regarding BT, BHVR making copycat perks with powercreep is irrelevant to them totally ruining the older version of that perk. maybe if they expanded the core gameplay they'd have more to design perks around. -
@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4118424#Comment_4118424
So you brought an irrelevant topic to the discussion? 2 line scan merchant was fine. She wasn't the strongest, but she wasn't weak either. They then committed to gutting the character that was in a good spot because people complained about what she once was instead of saying "this characters counterplay is fundamentally different than what she used to be, try to learn it."
No, I replied to your comment about whining and added context as to why.
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@Shuyo said:
I tried this perk as Artist and it's INSANE.
Every filler pallet in the map suddenly becomes a guaranteed hit, no matter what. I even got double taps with it, because knockout doesn't deactivate when a survivor gets damaged.
They drop, I get a direct (damaging) hit with a crow and when they try to use the speed boost from that to get away… knock out -20%.
It's just insane. I don't know how knockout is with other killers (I assume Dredge is also a candidate), but with Artist it's obnoxious.anyone you would normally hold W to get away from a filler pallet against is a problem, especially pallet shredders, because it then puts people into a lose lose scenario: loop an extremely unsafe pallet and likely get hit (in some cases like for myers if you get hit you're outright downed) or leave and then also likely get hit.
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@BloodBehemoth said:
Shoulder having 1 use for the whole team is what the perk needs, because hook shuffling is insufferable and completely broken. BHVR could put up a notification in the lobby on the perk stating someone else currently has it equipped, letting others know the risk of still taking it into the trial.
As for other perks receiving the same "tourney treatment" I wouldn't worry and think you're just strawmanning. No one complains regularly that having 4 DSes needs to be changed so that when the killer is DSed once the whole team loses access to it.
Unless of course you DO like the slugging meta. StB makes hooking pointless.
If Hook Shuffling is "Insufferable and broken" then so is any form of tunneling lmao.
The most consistent excuse for tunneling is "Its an elimination game, It serves me best to eliminate one survivor, it's not personal"
then keep that energy for StB, it serves the survior side best to not have one person tunneled out. it's also not "hook shuffling" it's incremental. no hook state is being taken away. -
@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4118396#Comment_4118396
If this was happening. Skill issue truly. If this was 1.0 merchant sure. But scan line merchant was legit fine. Note that a comment from a dev said about merchant was "set and forget" for an AREA DENIAL KILLER, lets not ever forget that line.
But I would like to ask. How was 2 scan line merchant "toxic" as you would say? Would really love an explanation.I'm talking specifically about the initial release of Skull Merchant, once something like that enters the game it's already over, the character is irredeemable even still for a lot of people. more or less I was hoping it would make BHVR put more thought into releasing killers regarding how interesting and interactive their gameplay is on the survivor side but it clearly didn't.
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@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4118210#Comment_4118210
Yeah but when they admitted to basically gutting a killer to quell the whining to rework her later… you can only wonder where all that time went.
the "whining" in question came because the design around her was extremely toxic by default. there's zero reason games should be going more than twice as long as normal because of a killers power.
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@Rickprado said:
People are forgetting all of this changes also come up with the player intention system.
I was able to pre leave a Wesker and coordinate gens, saves and heals. SoloQ experience will be much better with the intent system.
definitely didn't forget, Just like I remember DBD before the UI on the sidescreen that shows you what teammates are doing.
This is not a gameplay update, it's an extremely long overdue basic form of communication, a good thing for the game for sure but I'm not coming back super excited to use a text wheel. that's not a content update or change that influences actual core gameplay, it's just a bypass of VC. -
@HexSlugged said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4118351#Comment_4118351
so…your foot steps being silent doesnt help you evade killers outside of chase? Having much shorter scratchmarks doesnt help you evade the killer outside of chase? iron will doesnt help you evade killers outside of chase? I am a little confused on how those could be in a different category. deception and lucky break i can agree
urban evasion and the perk i cant remember the name of that lets you walk 20% quicker are also highly useful stealth perks.
there isnt a lot of aura hiding perks ill concede that part.
The primary use of those perks is to help you while in chase, not to evade chase from beginning. there are many perks that fall into usefulness in more than one situation, that doesn't mean they weren't designed for something else.
Urban Evasion is also a chase perk. people use it to hide, but it in no way prevents you from being detected by the killer. it's much better suited to evading ranged killers or killers with strange attack hitboxes while in chase (Hillbilly Chainsaw/Blight Rush).
Fixated / Self Aware is designed to be used with exhaustion perks, and almost all viable builds that include the perk are in that category. -
I am also very annoyed that Altruism is being heavily discouraged for regular players. StB and for that matter BT both encourage players to help their teammates and allowed survivors create situations which could surprise the killer and put them at a momentary disadvantage by way of countering strategy. seeing both of them gutted alongside Knockout really gives the impression BHVR is removing counterplay as a viable option for survivor gameplay.
StB Already had a major downside for the user, it gives them the hookstate of the person they use the perk on. first of all, It doesn't remove progress from the killer at all, it's not vanishing a hookstate, It's giving it to someone else. If anything StB is a cool example of how Survivor perks can have tangible effects in the future without being in the Exhaustion or Stun Perk categories. a sort of offensive altruism that was a healthy idea. yes, StB can be very powerful, believe it or not people want perks to have a potential for a memorable moment in a game. Perks are the only expression survivor has. If Tunneling is a valid strategy, and Slugging is a valid strategy then why is it "unfair" or "too powerful" for a survivor to take extra risk on themselves to save a teammate from being on death hook?
SP/BT/StB/Vigil getting seriously nerfed in very quick succession really gives the impression that BHVR wants survivors, especially solo queue survivors to play for themselves and not as a team.I mean even basekit BT was decreased by 1/3 of its value to discourage players taking hits for eachother off of hook. that's altruism lol… I don't know why the idea seems to be "prevent survivors from helping eachother"… I think that overall precedent is extremely bad in and of itself
Like if you look at the dev note for the nerf on SP it's so insanely unaware:Dev Note: We know that Elusive can be a strong status effect. Several Self Preservations in a lobby can have the unintended effect of the Killer returning back to hook more often. We're reducing the numbers here quite a bit, but are keeping a close eye on this perk.
How on earth does this even make sense? The killer is going to return to the hook regardless. BT doesn't exist anymore, Basekit Endurance down 5 seconds, Elusive on Unhook means its even more important for tunneling killers to be nearby to actually see where the survivor goes. "the fact the killer can't see you when they hook someone means they are going to tunnel" killers are tunneling anyway, and SP was used to safely get to the hook without being seen. "Several Self Preservations" okay…? How often are Several Self Preservations seen in a match? about never? and when they are seen how would diminishing the timer change the outcome of a killer returning to a hook as opposed to if they could see you running to get the unhook? -
@Rick1998 said:
There were just niche scenarios this perk was an issue . For exaple set up a match on lerys vs 4x self preservations. Basically you get giga punished for hooking because elusive just removes chasing on inddor maps or maps with many los breakers.
yeah and there's also niche games where you run four healing builds into a plague, or genrush builds into skillcheck doctor, or not so uncommon games where you run an antihex build into a killer with no hexes.
If that happens, oh well it's an unfortunate matchup, try your best and move on. -
@JohnNemesisMan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4118230#Comment_4118230
Putting Sprint Burst Vigil on the weak link isn't going to make the weak link more skilled. If they suck, they suck. If Sprint Burst Vigil made a weak link survivor win the match then it was absolutely a crutch.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4118232#Comment_4118232
I'll give you that, Jason and Judgement are bad design. Jason can at least be fixed with some nerfs to his Omnipresent Evil, but Judgement was a mistake from the get-go ever since they began shifting what people voted about her. Yes, I agree going against them currently suck.
But goddamn, StB and Vigil had to go. WoO was literally number #1 perk among everything else and used by everyone. But the game is in a comfortable position to do without those perks no matter how much into account you wanna put the bad teammates into the mix, because those will always exist.
And don't know how else I can put this point across because I have stated it many times already but killer did have negative meta shifts. Pain Res was popular for the longest time because due a lack of options. Pop was nerfed, Ruin got nerfed, Overbrine was nerfed, gen kick limit were still affecting all those other perks while hook protections were extended for a while. And that's not counting the 'Quality of Life' update of pallets that still affects multiple maps to this day. Survivors were eating good for a very long time.Putting Sprint Burst Vigil on the weak link isn't going to make the weak link more skilled. If they suck, they suck. If Sprint Burst Vigil made a weak link survivor win the match then it was absolutely a crutch.
Are we for real "If using perks help you win a match they're crutches"
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Part of the problem is that Killers are each their own, they have unique addons and powers and playstyles and also perks, survivors are bound to be null characters with 4 perk slots, 6 items, and model reskins. perk nerfs to survivor are everything. major aspects of survivors game can be totally nullified by going against certain killers or perks. Survivor never gets anything new, but consistently faces the same things from killers who have different combinations of addons and powers in addition to the most consistent and effective strategies and perk builds.
Nerfs to commonly used perks for survivor are more akin to nerfs of popular killers basekits in general. if I like playing killer and they nerf this or that stat I can do this or that to compensate with perks or addons or playstyle but if a perk gets nerfed (more often gutted than normally nerfed) for survivor it's just an aspect of possibility entirely closing. that creates malice, that's why people say "What about Pain Res", because just in this update alone survivor is getting outright nerfed if you look at it in the proper lense. Survivor is receiving significant nerfs to popular, or good perks which equates to a flat "Survivor is getting nerfed" and the few perks getting buffed are nowhere near good enough to compensate, and this comes after SB and Vigil just got destroyed as well.
But Killers are just getting Buffed across the board, never mind how that disproportionately affects S - A Tier Killers compared to C - D Tier Killers… Tunneling was just made easier, Gen Slowdown is just as strong, a handful of killer perk changes are outright nonsense but overall there's a lot of perks being buffed which could allow them to expand their playstyles, Survivor just got even more narrow as their only avenue of expression (perks) got even smaller.
TBF If it was as close to a "one to one" comparison as possible people would compare WoO to Killer Aura Reading Perks which are at an alltime high while SP is getting slaughtered and Distortion has already been dead. Survivor is just slowly running out of options, and at the same time the role has recieved no meaningful gameplay updates in years, so what's left is animosity, especially towards perk nerfs because Perks encompass most of the survivors gameplay alteration ability while only affecting a single element of killer gameplay. (that's also why there's a huge killer disparity too because BHVR is trying to balance an Asym by perks and not by the kit potency of individual killers) -
@BloodBehemoth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4118197#Comment_4118197
You people will never be happy.
if you're invested in a setting and you see it getting worse, you tend to be vocal. Voicing problems that have been extremely obvious for a very long time, and our annoyance at the Developers for seemingly not listening to player feedback is what forums are for.
I didn't make this thread just to complain either, I did it to point out a very real and persistent problem which is causing a consistently stale and uninteresting state of DBD regardless of what new killer comes out which is that the core gameplay is rarely ever changed, and arguably never has been changed in a meaningful way.
The Meta will not change because changing perk stats is not how you regulate a meta in a game like this. if you want certain things to be less valid you need to change the game to benefit other things equally as much as the current things. I am not going to pretend like these perk changes are doing or will do anything good for the game, reading them invokes more of a sense of "why even do that" rather than even finding the changes good. BT change is indefensible, it's like zero thought was put into it at all, and I will be harsh about that because I care about the game and I know BHVR can do better because they have done better in the past.
Survivor doesn't get the benefit of something new coming out with the next content release, it's just another killer with more problems to overcome. the only things survivor has gotten that are new in years are horrible: Fog Vials and Invocations. It's just another reskin of a null character with three perks which tend to release in an either unusable state or a state deemed "too strong" and nerfed almost immediately never to be the same again.
TOTH change makes my point even more clear, the perk is a problem perk because whether in its former state or new state it literally requires survivors to bring antihex builds in a game with zero pre game communication for regular players and no way to know there will be a hex in game or not, and on the flipside if they have an antihex build and there's no hexes in the game they're not only wasting their own perk slots and time looking for them, but also wasting their teams time by doing something not benefitting the final outcome of the game.