DodoSwarm
DodoSwarm
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I face a decent bit of SWFs on Bubba too, no idea why
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@Angy_Quentin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113904#Comment_4113904
No? You are talking about two separate issues that are both a problem, but are not connected to each other in any way.
Vigil could be fixed by removing hindred from it's effects. It could also be fixed by excluding killer powers and addons from interacting with vigil.
Or the third and best option, in my opinion, is just reworking the perk, because it messes with exhaustion balancing, some killers powers, weak killer perks that get even weaker because of it and even currently needs to be looked at for every new killer release that bases on some sort of status effect influenced by it.
It's really not that hard to see, that vigil is not a healthy perk for both sides. It may even played into the decision to nerf sprintburst.
No? You are talking about two separate issues that are both a problem, but are not connected to each other in any way.
They are directly relevant, not because they affect each other but because it points out an inconsistency in the reasoning for game balance
Nerfing Vigil "Because it disproportionately affects a few killers" but not doing the same to the plague who disproportionately affects all survivors with altruism builds. -
@NekoTorvic said:
I'm not sure a single survivor perk should destroy a killer's build if it's fully dedicated to aura. Distortion does it's job. It saves you from aura read at certain times, and it tells you what aura reading the killer has, which can then help you play around it.
If the killer is dedicating their whole build to aura, to the point they exhaust distortion, then I think it's fair that a survivor who finds that to be an issue should dedicate more of their own build to anti aura perks.
Edit: In fact, I don't even think a single survivor perk should counter even a single killer aura perk fully. The killer has 4 perks to the survivors' 16.That's the RNG though, DBD is built around a ton of RNG, and avoiding bad results for one side as a result of RNG is not worth doing unless they want to go ahead and scrap all RNG. Survivors run the risk of bringing bad builds against certain killers all of the time. I think the real issue is whether a killer so strongly depends on perks or not.
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@ForTheEntity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113936#Comment_4113936
This wouldn't work because for example: Clown is bad but his counter play is also pre dropping pallets, removing pallets against him is not really a great fix especially with Vigil gone.
And this is why it's pointless to bring up workable ideas on these forums. There's always a bunch of people who will say "This wouldn't work because X" and almost no one who says "Broadly that's a good idea but we'd have to account for X."
I guess, that's just my way of typing… I more or less was just trying to say "removing pallets" is another example of something survivors would have to get something in return for in the way of countering The Clown… hence why I kind of dismissed it as part of the endless cycle of good ideas that also require counterweights which make them less good ideas.
doesn't it make sense to just give the clown something else in his Kit over RNG limiters in special situations? that's part of the issue with the perk hell DBD has created where all of the sudden you have to consider all of the perks that work with pallets, kind of like they already addressed Vigil for Hindered..
another damned if they do, damned if they don't scenario… -
@Piruluk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113940#Comment_4113940
Its already problem most survivor perks too situational and constantly nerfed , and they dont have powers like killer
I mean TBF Survivor shouldn't have powers like killer… that's not how the game is setup to work, and survivor perks should be notably weaker than killer perks but they just haven't really given survivor anything to work towards progression wise, that's why i was commenting on the perk rarity.
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yeah a decent bit, I've probably faced 20 or so out of maybe 50 games
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@MashedBroccoli said:
if bhvr cared about new players they would:
remove perk tiers, keeping only purple tier and make it so teachables are unlocked at character purchase instead of being gated by prestige.
I kind of agree with you but for newer survivors obtaining perks and P1ing survivors is like the only progression offered (unless you consider the extremely mediocre prestige rewards progression) … there's no reason to pick up more than one survivor total other than their perks, and that would shed too much light on the reality that survivor is bland as a role, there's no individual variation between them they are just shells for perks.
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@ForTheEntity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113897#Comment_4113897
There were other asym games not based on single IPs like Video Horror Society and Last Year which failed in significant part thanks to the survivors being able to harder-bully and kill the killer. In DbD survivors can try to bully the killer but not at all like those games did.
there's a resonably strong case that in high MMR people kind of do have to tunnel on certain killers to stay in the game, but on the flipside if tunneling is available on B - F tier killers its also available on A - S Tier killers and it's a problem.
At least you see this, many forum members just get stuck on "tunneling is bad" and there is no discussion. Even with higher tier killers if you go up against a good enough team of survivors you may have to get an elimination ASAP to have a chance at winning. It doesn't take a comp SWF to make this necessary it can happen with 4 SoloQ survivors each with 5k hours each who have great game sense. (Although I am not sure current matchmaking even allows that but that's another discussion.) That's partly why I brought up old Ebony Moris in my pervious post, if the killer recognized the team in their lobby as a SWF or a group of good survivors they could equip an Ebony Mori (and also switch to their strongest killer) to level the playing field. But BHVR handed out Ebony Moris like candy and people abused them so we're not allowed to have nice things. Killers have less options to deal with these sweaty games so they resort to what they have left, tunneling and slugging. So now we have things like this thread trying to get rid of tunneling which could lead to killers knowing they're in a hopeless match as soon as they load in, i.e. "against this squad with this killer on this map I'm cooked."
The balance gap between killers is something I thought of a potential solution to. Have the maps generate based on the killer. Something like having 3 less pallets spawn on the map for D-tier killers, 2 less for C-Tier and 1 less for B-tier to start with. I think we wouldn't even notice a difference and they'd have to ramp it up even more, but it would be a start. This would be an easy-to-implement way to balance killers without having to do reworks and some killers can't even be buffed like Trapper who we all know is the best basement guardian in the game but it is still D-tier.
I also think map offerings should be retired then they could move to curated map lists for each killer, which would be affected by the killer's addon selections of course. I think this could actually be one of the better ideas to reduce tunneling because we'd get less of "OMG I got this dog doo doo map, I need to send someone back to the campfire immediately."
My last two paragraphs are probably too crazy to take seriously. But I do think they'd lead to more balanced and more fun matches.
The balance gap between killers is something I thought of a potential solution to. Have the maps generate based on the killer. Something like having 3 less pallets spawn on the map for D-tier killers, 2 less for C-Tier and 1 less for B-tier to start with. I think we wouldn't even notice a difference and they'd have to ramp it up even more, but it would be a start. This would be an easy-to-implement way to balance killers without having to do reworks and some killers can't even be buffed like Trapper who we all know is the best basement guardian in the game but it is still D-tier.
This wouldn't work because for example: Clown is bad but his counter play is also pre dropping pallets, removing pallets against him is not really a great fix especially with Vigil gone.
I do agree that making the killer "killable" is a kind of bad idea for Asymm games, it's partially why Evil Dead failed as well, I just didn't mention VHS cause I didn't play it so I can't really pretend like I know why it died. but I will say, interestingly, the killer being bullied and dying contributing to why VHS apparently failed is the same feeling a survivor gets when they are tunneled at 5… "why even bother if I can't do anything and I just die" is exactly what happens to tunneled survivors in basically everything except high MMR.
I just think, again, DBD is running into too many unsolvable issues with time that BHVR is trying to solve with perk balance and number changes that objectively don't fix the underlying problems and now the problems are stacking up. RNG is a major factor in DBD and at a point, to make the game "Fair" it has to go away, but I would argue that its good the game has RNG to the extent that it does, and it's bad that it has become so comp minded, I don't even think it's possible to truly make DBD "fair PVP", it's not compatible with the actual base design of the game, so why not lean into making the game more thematic and fun for both sides?
(That doesn't mean BHVR should just disregard obvious problems either though)
again, I just don't see an end to tunneling in the current design of the gameplay loop, as long as it's even possible, the people who are doing it to be toxic are still going to do it, and as long as it's valuable everyone who plays killer is going to do it. so if BHVR makes it possible but not valuable then only people intentionally being toxic are going to be doing it and if BHVR makes it not possible then there has to be something kind of major to fill the void for the sake of killer players. -
@Bloodraven said:
Cyberpunk 2077, Baldurs Gate 3 and Divinity Original Sin 2 are superb titles to sink hours into.
If you want some space 4x strategy Stellaris is pretty good to waste time in.If you want horror at a slow pace Still Wakes the Deep is a solid title also.
+1 on Still Wakes the Deep, was an awesome horror game
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@Angy_Quentin said:
Vigil makes it hard to balance exhaustion perks and is unique in its weird property to fck over specific low tier killers like clown.
It's as healthy as original tinkerer.
this is the repeated justification people are using but if that was really the case they could just remove hindered from the debuffs Vigil interacts with. It's also not a good justification anyway since RNG is a defining factor of this game, I have used The Plague as an example a lot because she totally destroys an entire quarter of survivor gameplay, if you bring a medkit and a healing build against the plague you're just perkless and that's somehow fine but Vigil VS Clown and Freddy isn't?
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@sadakomura65 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/471885/vigil-absolutely-massacred
Skull Merchant also got massacred and still is to this day yet no one cares
that's because on release she was like the worst experience a lot of people have ever had in this game, I hope they entirely redo her design or she gets outright deleted even if she's F tier now
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I chose to not take a side until after full release and as of currently… the VFX would probably kill Judgement, it's not that difficult to stop healing and take two steps to either side and start again… the VFX would be too blatant
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@ForTheEntity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113650#Comment_4113650
That's not really true. It used to be that with an Ebony Mori offering killers could mori survivors after just downing them and later after just hooking them once and then downing them again. So killers used to have easy mode with a single offering.
On the other side the hatch used to be an insane mechanic. Without explaining it completely as it was quite complicated, the hatch would spawn with all 4 survivors still alive with 1 gen left and with just one key they could all escape.
So stuff used to be really broken on both sides, and in both cases it's just from bringing 1 thing. They deleted that stuff which changed the core gameplay, simplifying it.
The issue is that DbD got really lucky and found a simple formula in an asym that somehow works. And after seeing so many other asyms with different formulas fail time and time again including their own Deathgarden, it's understandable that they don't want to mess with it too much as they could kill the goose that laying golden eggs.
Whenever they try to mess with the core gameplay it backfires. There is no other asym we can point at and say "that's how it should be done."
Yeah I partially agree (as far as DBD Having found an overall good form for Asymm) but its important to note that neither old mori nor 4 man hatch are examples of a good "second objective" at all, Mori isn't even a second objective its just an insane shortening of the main objective. That doesn't mean that they cannot expand the core game to benefit both sides equally. I would say both old mori and old hatch had the primary fault of just being a net loss for the other side, there was no "win" in 4 man hatch for killer and there was no "win" in old mori for survivor.
Part of the failure of the other Asymms comes from single IP as well, although TCM was doing well until devs abandoned it and F13 is still beloved but was lost due to license problems. Ghost Busters and Evil Dead never had the benefit of being able to expand out of one setting, that is my same concern for Halloween. DBD has the unique stranglehold on the genre of having a large amount of horror icons all in one place even if (in my opinion) they do a pretty bad job of bringing them to life.
DBD has the problem now where there's "too much stuff" (not saying more content is a bad thing directly), and it's starting to overlap and have to be powercreeped to be "new and interesting". someone already pointed out that Judgement draws a lot from Pyramid Head for their kit, but especially perks… there's only so much they can reasonably do with perks considering how limited the actual gameplay is, but at the same time the game is changing killer wise… that's where the disparity between killers like Clown and Trapper and then Kaneki and Jason come in… balancing niche perks around a diverse roster of killers who don't even have the same level of raw capabilities is becoming impossible… there's a resonably strong case that in high MMR people kind of do have to tunnel on certain killers to stay in the game, but on the flipside if tunneling is available on B - F tier killers its also available on A - S Tier killers and it's a problem.
The Tunneling exists because it largely supercedes perks, yes there are perks to combat it, no they are often not used well enough to matter a lot, and killers have learned to play around the best of them. don't forget BT off of hook got lowered by 5 seconds because survivors were… using it to help their team (dang that is rough, we gotta nerf that!) and now killers who wan't to tunnel regardless can do it quicker… no matter what stats they change or tweak, whether its on perks, or base game functions like BT on Hook rescue, it can't fix the problem because in the current gameplay loop you have side A: where low tier killers need to tunnel and making it unviable for them makes the killers unviable (as much as I hate tunneling at all, I play bubba and not tunneling leaves me with a lot of 1 and 2 Kill games) but then you have side B: where high tier killers absolutely do not need to tunnel and do it anyway, but removing the general ability to tunnel through stats disproportionately affects group A, and increasing the ability to tunnel disproportionately affects group B.
This is why, in my opinion, the game has to change. and not in a way that just benefits one side or the other, one that just widens the playing field (while making sure killers who lack pressure have a way to keep up, hence my suggestion of making secondary objectives bend to the killer and be individual rather than generic) -
I don't hate it enough for it to be something I care that much about but it is… odd? but I guess I can't really think of what would replace it now that it's in the game like it is. I do like that it provides a "this thing is not human" aspect to the killer, I think just floating human legs or something would be worse than the crab legs
I will say, it makes me hope for more large sized killers in the game. -
Personally I prefer DBD as a horror game, The Trickster is already kind of a step too far, I'd rather not it start becoming fortnite.
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I have over a thousand hours and the survivor builds that require epic and Iridescent addons, even on my P100 Nick Cage and P50 Ash Williams are kind of despicable in time requirement ngl.. P50 Ash Williams and if I want to run a build with a brand new part for one day I use half of my brand new parts… unreasonably disrespectful of people who don't have hundreds of hours to play for items.
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@cammoking123 said:
No BHVR wants to force the chase meta. Honestly killing stealth and forcing the chase meta is one of the worst things to happen this game. As a controller player I can't hug loops tight so I doubt I'll ever be a great looper. BHVR is basically giving me the middle finger.
yeah forcing a chase meta by nerfing good chase perks for survivor, nerfing stealth perks for survivor, and also adding more killers with antiloop and zone capabilities that force people to hold W…
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113651#Comment_4113651
The patch was today, they did lower the percentage to 30% but they didn't implement the other part of the change properly
oh, my bad, I didn't know one came out today
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
I agree it should go back to 40%, but the current version in today's patch is bugged now (they didn't actually remove the other status effects from it) so that needs a fix. But yeah, the further reduction to 30% was not needed at all
didn't they say they weren't actually changing it until a later patch?
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@HoodedWildKard said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113450#Comment_4113450
I'm not sure if more objectives will help. Since the main focus is getting kills most killers will ignore existing side objectives until the game is practically won (e.g. glyphs)
Personally I'm in favour of making it much harder to hard tunnel while incentivising killers to spread hooks. And rebalancing chase to make it harder to hold chase for long periods of time. Perhaps messing with how blooust works. The reason players tunnel early is because they are bad at chase. Perhaos if there was a catchup mechanic that activated if a killer spends a certain amount of cumulative time in chase with individual survivors.
I mean there should be a few ways to win for either side that make sense directly regarding the killer in play. that way one killer or another isn't "Good or bad" at all of these things and it would do a lot to solve the "S Tier, F Tier" Tierlists because the matches would be personalized to the killer, things that would propose a direct threat to the killer winning the game if they want to just mindlessly camp a hook and then tunnel off of it. I just don't see a way in the current layout of the game they are going to be able to stop tunneling as being the consistent strategy because if you strip everything away except base gameplay the fact that the killer can win around the hook but the survivors cannot is why tunneling is so strong.
There's been basically zero core gameplay change in DBD for its entire existence and so no wonder tunneling and camping remains the same when they're trying to solve it with perks… its a problem with the actual gameplay design not perk stats -
@Piruluk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113445#Comment_4113445
I think thats the design philosophy for longtime though.
In what world a solo team has any odds against a mediocre A-S tier killer?
Queue times says all, like before evening usually 7-10 minutes for a killer game, survivor instant and always on bloodpoint bonus, I never saw killer bp points since months.
I kind of agree but that doesn't make it any better of a game design idea lol, once survivors finally get tired of it its going to be extremely hard for BHVR to get them back to the game.
Its mostly because Killer players are generally playing to win and survivor players are playing for a number of reasons but (especially based on the difference between survivor main and killer main CCs) mostly to have fun whether they win or lose… my personal experience is that BHVR is making the game less enjoyable especially for solo queue survivor in a lot of ways.
IDK about where you are playing but in USA Queue times rarely, basically never get that long. -
@Royval said:
judgement is an broken killer players are getting 4ks in 1 minute
I think this is just because she's still so new, people are still doing things that are directly bad against her so often that it's hard to be accurate about how good or bad she is rn
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@Arcturus said:
For totems, Hexes can't be relit because most of they're effects are 1. more impactful than survivor boon perks 2. take time to cleanse rather than just snuffing them out in a short animation and 3. boons have a very limited range of 24m except on indoor maps. Boons already have a sound to reveal where they are, but I could get behind an accessibility change where boons are revealed within maybe 6m? Any higher and it might be too much due to how limited the range of the boon is in the first place.
As for survivor perks that reveal the killer aura, you kind of betrayed yourself in your own post. Exactly, in SWFs they are comming the killer's location already, so it only benefits solo players to see the killer's aura at range. Solo survivors are objectively weaker than SWFs, so I don't see the problem there. The other kind of aura reading survivors can get is in chase like with keys with the iri addon, or with things like Troubleshooter. However, killers have equivalents, such as I'm All Ears and Zanshin Tactics. This effect is good on both sides, but certainly not meta.
don't forget that Killers don't have to spend time setting up HEX totems, and by extension don't have to find a place to do so.. both of these things (even if you know where dull totems spawn) waste objective time… many games its outright better for the killer that survs are wasting time continuously booning
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I think this would be an incredibly good thing in general… there are a handful of killers who's powers feel outright bad to deal with at all, and they're mostly towards the bottom of the killer tierlist anyway (Spirit is an exception) but I have always found that The Plague is the peak example of a design that just sucks, and it's not even like it sucks because its so oppressive or hard to deal with, it actually just isn't fun or engaging… throwing up the entire game, lots of perk builds rendered entirely useless, the MMR scoring idea of the game effectively being a FFA despite being a 4v1 also means many people cleanse at times that destroy the team, and so on down the list… the design is just bad, I think part of a killers health and status should also maintain that they are engaging in a good way for both sides to interact with. that doesn't mean that they need to be super weak or super strong either, just actively engaging for both sides win or lose.
People hate spirit for the same kind of reason, it's hard to be content with being outplayed when her spatial audio is so difficult to pick up on, especially in certain situations or for hearing impaired people. so overall, he power just feels bad to deal with as a survivor.
The Clown is this way as well, and the clown is horrible, near the bottom of the killer tierlist. His power is not only bad, but its also just something that feels bad to deal with as a survivor… "Man I love Pre Dropping and Holding W", The Knight is horrible and uninteractive in the same way… or the once infamous and now terrible and still mostly disliked Skull Merchant who was just built a round proxy camping and 3genning… that's a design based on tedious and annoying parts of the game that stall an otherwise engaging game out unnecessarily. but then on the other end you have generally respected and fun killers that most people engage positively with like The Hillbilly, Springtrap, Wesker, Xeno, etc…
I don't even care if a killer is S or F tier personally, I care if their mechanics are fun to engage with as a survivor, regardless of whether I am winning more or losing more against them. -
@Wraff said:
You literally have a system in 2v8 that determines gen speeds based on how well the Killers or Survivors are doing in game and you haven't put this thing into normal DBD? Really?
I don't think this should be the case in normal 1v4, arcade mode feeling is a part of what makes 2v8 unique and fun. also, it's kind of a bad feelng when you do the right things (either as survivor or killer) to be ahead and the game just forces you to be kind of even until the end of the game.
To the point you're trying to make though: Stomps don't feel good for anyone whether its a hard tunnel at 5 that leads to a snowball of being slugged and healed and slugged again, or just being unable to catch anybody as killer, I wish BHVR would put serious time into how to make the normal game have many more opportunities for either side to get back into the game rather than it just feeling like a scale tipping further where one or two bad plays feels impossible to come back from for either side… -
@HoodedWildKard said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113310#Comment_4113310
Very well put. It is depressing how many killer players just want to make the game miserable for every survivor they come across. I've had way more fun with dbd as killer simce i started being more chill and actively letting survivors go more often.
Entirely fixable by the way, but it won't be fixed unless BHVR considers actually expanding the objectives for the killer and the survivor. Right now the Killer wins by hooking people, the survivors win by doing gens. The Killer can tunnel and proxy camp because it forces survivors off of gens and into the hook. that's bad design because the killer has a lay up way to force survivors into losing scenarios just by doing the bare minimum on their end.
The game would have to be unreasonably survivor sided if most games went without even one person getting hooked, first hook is just a fact of a DBD game (except, as noted, in an extreme mismatch situation) and its basically unavoidable for survivors, but it immediately puts them in a "Damned if I do, Damned if I Don't" situation that is just by default too strong for the killer, so much so that it's a layup for 75% of killers to just do that immediately, because Only the killer can win around the hooks, they don't need to pressure the Gens and they don't need to run any survivor, they just need to make the game about the hook and not the gens.
Survivors and Killers need more objectives in game, I personally think BHVR should bend those objectives around the individual killers directly to make the killers more unique but also at the same time kill tunneling by adding some other form of win/lose where both sides can profit rather than a net deficit situation for survivors from the outset. -
@Elan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113345#Comment_4113345
Yes! If you are good with playing certain killer and master them, you shouldn't lose unless you verse coordinated comp team.
thats just horrible game design philosophy, in what world do you think that would be an appropriate way to balance the game?
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@CautionaryMary said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113375#Comment_4113375
If that is the case, why did my teammates in the video not do that? I went down once that whole trial, yet look at the randoms? Hm.
Also quit moving the goalposts, literally Platinum had a full meta slave build + OOO due to Naymeti touting it, yet she went down multiple times.
Dead Hard didn't do anything for her, Adrenaline obviously didn't do anything for her, Resilience only helped with gen speeds.
Literally in the video, you see Platinum struggling and running behind me begging to reset - amazing.
I rest my case.
again, I have no idea why you're being so aggressive… I dont use SB and dodge 95% of beam snipes just by moving… SB is not really being used well when you just have to take two steps to the left or the right, again 40s VS 6s… you can play however you wan't I am just stating a fact, you can physically move in time without SB.
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@CautionaryMary said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113318#Comment_4113318
Would you like video footage? Okay.
Here you go.
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https://youtu.be/YqBlsGRGcLU?is=31E19I01xAzaF0CD
I will edit and add that I to this day do not understand that people think a Judgment is going to spam and hit you eventually with a 6 second cooldown. Just because you have a short cooldown doesn't necessarily mean you will hit me if I know how to read tile geometry, abandon loops that I know will not work for me against said killer, and just you know - as shown in the video, you can sit on a generator, see the beam coming, and literally SB away from being hit.
If you don't have SB, guess what? You have to prerun to not be hit so much, look at Platinum with Object of Obsession (which I would argue is terrible against Judgment) and her getting sniped multiple times due to not having SB.
you can move after the beam starts coming and still dodge it, that's literally all I am saying… SB doesn't really add anything to the equation.
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@NeverSolus said:
This is just going to be a tunneling issue, as it was before, and I mean this in more of a mathematical sense. What we're discussing here isn't a distortion nerf, it's a meta shift. That is to say if a great deal of killers run aura read, the meta shift would be survs running distortion or other aura blocking perks, right?
Well this creates a scenario in which the killers stop playing aura necessary killers and run different builds to butcher anyone using perk slots on aura blocking. This creates a new stable meme in the pool, which is answered by the same meta as before, exhaustion perks and anti-tunnel perks. Which goes right back to aura perks.
This is just an argument of counters and adaptions, no?
The problem as I see if, if I were to take the survivor side on the matter, isn't that distortion isn't good enough. The problem is that there are a variety of killer perk and power load outs and as more killers are released it's becoming increasingly more difficult to run a build that comfortably denies or counters the bulk. If you run anti regression perks (Gen rush), you end up gutted if you face an aura build. If you run anti Aura, then the regression build guts you. And so on.
I think this is more of a problem of at match lock-in, feeling comfortable that the build you enter with is going to see value. This scenario is becoming increasingly more difficult as more killers are introduced that run different power perk combinations popularly.
If this is the case, the problem is more the lack of expected outcome from what the killers are bringing to a match than it is a problem of perks being undervaluable. Though certainly a buff to something like distortion would help for the anti-aura builds.that is because generalized perks are seen as "Way too strong" hence the fact they are gutting vigil. but ultimately this is STILL a problem of trying to balance an Asymm game around perks rather than around the Asymm elements of the characters. "this perk is too good here so we're nerfing it across the board" is why perks become unviable so fast. people want guaranteed value from their perks mostly, that's why it continues to hit so hard when things like Vigil and SB are super nerfed, because they usually provide some form of value. Perks are all that a survivor is, and as the roster expands and old perks are getting nerfed one by one rarely to return to frontrunner status there's just less generally strong options for your average survivor…
Is it crazy to say that this game is going to run into too many unsolvable problems (Perk Balance, Killer Tier Diff, Copious RNG, Stale Meta, ETC) to where the whole game just needs a reboot?
Distortion doesn't help rats, but it certainly helps against an ever expanding amount of aura reads, i mean lets be honest… Aura Read Judgement would shred through old distortion anyway while on the other hand BBQ on Bubba might not get a single read all game on someone running Distortion, making the perk "too good" and also "not good enough" at the same time where against Lethal and BBQ on someone like Ghoul or Nemesis uses two perk slots for the sake of keeping pressure and knowing where people are but are entirely voided by old Distortion, so why bother bringing them if people are running Distortion a lot? but Judgement, Nurse, even Huntress might Tear Distortion up to the point where its kind of not great, Judgement more than the others. I just don't know how BHVR can even go about balancing situations like this anymore.
Isn't this why exhaustion perks are a mainstay? because regardless of the RNG of killer, map, build, anything… Lithe, SB, DH will always be useful at some level whereas a lot of good Survivor Perks require teammate awareness which all too often they do not have, and there's also the reality that Survivor is kind of encouraged to play for themselves. -
@Elan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113252#Comment_4113252
If you are good killer, you should win every game. That's how the game should work. The only issue I have even as killer main is that you can now bodyblock stairs from basement and with shorter bt you can easily confirm a kill.
??? If you are a good killer you should NOT win every game? what kind of estimation is that?
"The other side should have no chance If I am good" -
@CautionaryMary said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4112867#Comment_4112867
Interesting, as a player who loved Sprint Burst and actively used it years ago I'll still use the perk.
I honestly think it's great against Judgment, I like to see the beam coming and I just SB away from the gen. I still probably will use the perk predominantly due to the fact that it just has the on-demand function of getting distance, along with me enjoying the high skill ceiling of 99ing your SB.
If I was to replace SB, I probably would just do double exhaustion. The thing with Lithe is most people typically use Lithe in chase builds, so it's more micro gameplay based while I prefer to play more macro centered, so like I enjoy Smash Hit/Lithe but the issue mainly for me is that you are highly dependent on windows and while trying to go for window vaults, you can get hit or even downed trying to get the speed you need. - not saying Lithe is a bad perk by any means, you're just more limited unless of course you are using micro perks with it (Finesse, Resilience, etc). I probably would just adopt Dramaturgy or Overcome with Lithe as a secondary perk but I don't know really, I just don't like the hyperdependence you have with a Lithe.
I don't like Head On, so there's that.
I will add: ultimately, I would prefer to have one exhaustion perk as a whole, so I guess I'd choose Lithe or Dramaturgy if I had to pick one if SB was utterly unusable - I wouldn't claim SB is that by a long shot.
Balanced Landing is just far too situational for me to justify it as a single perk and Dead Hard is too situational once more (2 uses, yikes) but I respect Dead Hard players regardless.
I Honestly think it's great against Judgement, I like to see the beam coming and I just SB away from the gen.
The Judgements Beam is on a 6 second cooldown, SB has a 40 second cooldown… how is that a great use of SB?
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@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113184#Comment_4113184
Yeah. This happened with a lot of perks. Most prominently Circle of Healing. Every time they nerfed it to lower healing rates it got called "useless" each time even though it provided fast self resets to the entire team and was still brought every game. Now it's in a properly balanced state now that it doesn't provide self care.
with the amount of aura reading in the game, it has to be brought with Shadowstep to even be viable anymore, the amount of times I have seen Judgement get a free 3 hit in a reset heal just because people are actively using CoH is crazy.
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can't have a killer with very strong capabilities with no setbacks, that crosses from great potential into totally unfair. right now The Judgement is reasonably hard to play well and very hard to master, it should stay that way.
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@HoodedWildKard said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113172#Comment_4113172
Hence why i made this absolutely carcrash of a post 🙃
Personally I suspect that a lot of killers who argue for this tactic are people who use it as their go to tactic in most matches. There are some people who's only enjoyment when they play killer is to make the survs as miserable as possible and finish of with BMing and moris. Winning at all costs rather than taking enjoyment in the gameplay. There's a lot of players with that mentality unfortunately.
By extension losing frustrates them much more than most, which is why we see so many anti survivor posts, because newer or mid killer players ramp their mmr high by scratching out every 4k they can by any mean necessary, this pitches them against 5k hour swfs and who they can't compete with. They stay in this bracket for so long that their only game experience is that hardtunneling is the only way to secure a win. Leaning so hard into this tactic prevents them from building their broader killer skills and macro tactics. Creates a vicious cycle.
That's my theory at least.
I have suspected this for years as well, there are a lot more intentionally toxic killer players out there than people tend to admit, and Tunneling poses this unique problem where it absolutely sucks to deal with, even if its understandable, like its hard to really be mad if a killer resorts to tunneling off hook when they have three hooks at 2 gens, that just makes sense and gives the killer player pressure that they need to stay in the game. but even at its extreme Tunneling isn't considered "Toxic" or "Griefing" officially but it kind of definitely is… especially when the people who defend it are only able to come up with "but its an elimination game, and it's allowed, you just need to be better"
Tunneling at 5 is oftentimes either a clear attempt at the verifiably easiest, least interactive way to win regardless of individual skill, or people being toxic on purpose… I have encountered a fair bit of killers doing this over the years who make it a point to BM in the postgame lobby too and while you can report them for it if they go over the top, it's usually just them making it clear that they intended to tunnel from the beginning and they hope people had a terrible time. Even though that is a pretty rare interaction when all things are considered, it doesn't make it any less of a problem that its a core gameplay mechanic that's directly related to repeated toxic exchanges from both sides… it's also largely created a meta around the game that encourages survivors to pre leave, hold W, and Gen Rush or run full antitunnel because the alternate option is spend all game on a hook while your team tries to save you, or try to save a tunneled person with your team. and BHVR is in the middle of nerfing pre leaving as an option… -
@Piruluk said:
I almost never see it anymore, Lithe is everywhere though.
The rest of exhaustion perks are extremely situational:
- Balanced Landing most maps barely have a spot to trigger
- Overcome depends on killer to trigger it, so killer can play around it, and insta down killers laugh on it or killers where you cant heal
- Smash hit can be played around it depends on the killer to trigger
- Sprint Burst hard to manage and the reward is miniscule now
- Head on is a meme
- Dramaturgy requires you to be healthy and risky also barely gets you distance
- Dead Hard very hard to manage and sometimes you end up on the floor anyway due moderate ping killer
So ultimately only Lithe viable now.
But will be nerfed within a year or so.
It seems survivor perks are designed to barely do anything but unlike killers survivor has no power to play around they are just skin so the trend almost every perk useless for them makes the role extremely unappealing and this is why killer queue so long besides evenings
Yup and the new Hex: Under Your Thumb, though most likely overall rare, adds a further reason to not bring half of the exhaustion perks… Balanced Landing gets Zero distance with that hex active on top of only being situationally usable.
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@HoodedWildKard said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4111747#Comment_4111747
Yeah too many tribal players. Only playing one side or other. Gives people a very skewed view on game balance since they only see one side of it.
yeah but regarding this issue specifically I genuinely have no idea how Tunneling at 5 is fun or engaging for Killers either… IDK why people don't want the core gameplay changed to make it unviable and more rewarding to play against all 4 survivors rather than a 1v1 until the game ends…
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I feel like I'm on here a good bit speaking from a survivor main standpoint and even fully support the end of tunneling and camping and stuff in the game but honestly, I am extremely surprised to even say it but The Judgement is fine with me, because she brings one of the few things I really do want from this game which is a unique killer playstyle…
way too many killers are basically "Knife Guy" with a movement ability that comes running at you and that makes the game experience even worse when its a hard tunnel or a full slowdown build or something stupid and annoying to deal with. I wish we got MORE killers like The Judgement (not literally the same obviously) who seem to have the match shaped at least somewhat around them rather than being shaped around the match. I would rather face the judgement any day over the soulless reworked "Knife Guy" Dash Merchant Myers, because he doesn't provide anything interesting or different to interact with.
But its also not really possible to deny the danger of adding killers to the game that ignore dozens of perks and builds… unfortunately the game works too much around perk balance to keep things as is imo.
Also, there are definitely things I DONT like about The Judgement either (Early Stomp Potential, Uninteractive Playstyle Potential, 3gen master) but I would rather a killer be very thematic and impact the match in a way that feels like "I am facing this killer and the other ones aren't like this killer" than unviable in annoying circumstances… I wish Behavior put more emphasis on the core gameplay in this way than they do with perks… -
The only thing I haven't liked about her so far, and it may or may not get better after MMR settles and she's been around longer, is that I have been in a few games now where it just ends in like 2 mins by a 4man slug, oftentimes its because two or even three people get hit when healing as its very hard to dodge the widened beam when you're healing someone sometimes… when that specifically happens its kind of annoying, like everyone might as well have skipped the game but I don't think its going to happen very often especially as she's out longer and longer.
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Problem Stems from the idea that killers should be linear rather than entirely their own… there's officially enough killers in DBD where almost any killer they add will have similarities to other ones and it isn't avoidable without making a convoluted kit (hence lack of newer M1 killers) if Killers were the concept their matches were played around there would be much more room for expression but since they aren't I think M2 killers is probably the best way to continue to push a diverse character roster.
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@TheGoon224 said:
Been on a DBD break for a bit and I just want some single player game recommendations to hold me off until the Terrifier chapter comes out.
A LOT of people seem to have forgotten or missed out on the Narrative Horror "A Midnight Walk" it has one of the coolest artstyles in a while and though its a little short I think it is super worth it
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@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/471110/any-game-recommendations
Ive been playing a lot of Phasmophobia lately. (Single Player) Lots of fun! Scary too. I also am waiting for the next Star Wars game (Fallen Order Series)
yeah but where's that Horror 2.0 update… Been waiting for that for like 3 years :(
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@MorelClaudette said:
I simply don't understand why they never explain MMR in more detail.
Now would be the perfect opportunity to do so.
I get it that they won't show a number or something to prevent bullying each others ranks (high MMR = no lifer/unemployed, low MMR = noob, no skill). They also do not need to explain what algorithms or whatever they use.
But some examples would help with understanding the actual system.
Just simple things like
- "If you play killer and get 1 kill, but 9 hooks → MMR stays the same (you would have needed 2 kills for a MMR increase)"
- "If you play survivor and get 3 out of 4 iridiscent emblems but die in the end → MMR increase".
That would help a lot of people to get the basic idea.
I keep saying this, and have seen other people say this as well: BHVR is refusing to state whether this game is casual or competitive and its kind of taking away from everyones experience because of this. if there's an MMR overhaul focused on making the lobbies more evenly matched (So far in my games this has not been the case) At this point just make ranks mean something AND actually identify what the win condition is as opposed to vaguely leaving it up to player interpretation. Just add a by default ranked system, since so many people are afraid of splitting the queue. I would even just add Rank + BP Rank so the ash 4 to Iri 1 still remains as an identifier for how active someone has been this month and the overall rank is a signifier of their MMR range.
The ONLY reason I can think of that they wouldn't do this is because MMR is actually all over the place still and they know it is, in part because they are backfilling survivors from anywhere and any skill level (which I think a lot of people suspect they have always done to diminish queue time). I am positive in my games its not consistent, anyway. and "We don't want people being called out for their MMR" is just a fact of life in literally any PvP game that features real MMR, as always, just disable the chat if you don't want people being rude in it, they can even hide the Ranks of players until after the match to help with lobby dodgers (even though there's always a workaround to that). -
@KingOfDoom55 said:
Judgement is basically pyramid head v2, except way better, this happened with demogorgon to Xenomorph/nemesis to Xenomorph, Xenomorph to springtrap, and then sorta that way with blight to wesker when he was released, then Legion to ghoul, most of these killers have YET to be reworked or tuned to compete with their better counterparts, the big question is... WHY!? why even make better V2 of certain killers and leave the original ones with basically the same Or slightly different kits to rot or barely change their core issues but instead, nerf the completely new ones??? Some of these I can understand, but others I don't, and personally, weren't needed! This should probably change, otherwise this will continue to cause frustration with players that enjoy the character or play it because they love them
Yes but that will have to be the nature of the game going forwards… one of the more sad elements of the direction of DBD to me is the choice to balance killers around the game rather than balance the game around the killer… that inevitably leads to a progressive overshadowing of older killers who's kits have not changed and have no way to consistently keep up with the newer, more intricate killer designs. I don't think these kinds of overlaps can even be avoided when you consider how narrow the gameplay loop is of DBD "8 Generators, 12 Hooks, maybe a totem or 2" and since the balancing happens mostly VIA perks, it's just not possible to make all of these killers totally unique. If at least some parts of the wincondition were altered around the individual killer then I think it would provide more of a justification to play the older killers over the new ones because the actual game experience wouldn't be the same
@HexSlugged said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4112309#Comment_4112309
im happy to admit when i am wrong but i am not.
We can find similarities between every single killer in the game because the characters are limited by a finite set of mechanics and when there are 40 plus characters and counting there is going to be some crossovers. Thats not a good argument at all.
Pyramid head is 4.6. Judgement is not.
Pyramid head is a 115 chase capable killer. Judgement is not.
Pyramid head can lay down a trail to hinder and impact survivors. Judgement can not.
Pyramid head can send a survivor to a singular location upon which only that singular location can the survivor be rescued. Judgement can not.
Pyramid head can not be a threat to survivors who are 15 plus meters away. Judgement can.
Pyramid head can not apply heavy gate pressure in end game if gates are not spawned near each other. Judgement can.
Would you like me to continue?
They are killers who have overlap in what they can do but excell in different ways and situations.
I can list 10 plus similarities between Ghostface and wraith and yet regardless of similarities they are still differnt killers who play differently.
The nonsense of dbd players is incredibly tiring.
This is kind of proving their point isnt it? you're having to split hairs to call out the differences rather than being honest about their similarities. first of all most of that are just stat differences rather than addressing the similarities in their actual kit. obviously Judgement isn't a 1 to 1 Pyramid head but better, she is very similar in some regards though.
"Judgement is slower"
"Pyramid can lay down a trail to impact and hinder survivors' (Judgement doesn't have to do anything but land a hit)
"Pyramid Head sends a player to a singular location (assuming they were even affected by his status effect) and Judgement sends people to two" (but its still voiding the hook process, its just that Judgement is stronger.
"Pyramid cannot use his ability to cover the same range as judgement, nor can it cover several floors" thats not proof of difference its proof of improvement… hence the onward creep of newer killers being more complex…
and Judgement having a more complex kit also means we just have yet to see what they can do in entirety, I have already seen a diverse amount of builds attempted on her including builds meant to play around loops like pyramid head. -
@h0m3m4r4nh4 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4112342#Comment_4112342
Bro thinks basic WASD fixes flawed game design. Just admit you need a free win machine and move on.
I'm an 80/20 survivor player bro Judgement just isnt that good when they're being played from an uninteractive standpoint, you can dodge the beams pretty easily when they're throwing them at gens and it takes much more skill than someone like Vecna (The First) to land their ranged ability against actively moving survivors…
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aint no way bro take two steps to the left
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@blondemagnolia said:
For the first time in a long time, solo queue doesn’t feel like a massive handicap anymore because people are finally doing gens instead of cleansing 27 totems and opening 31 chests. And now killers have started unnecessarily dragging matches out and manipulating the game instead, which is honestly just exhausting.
IDK I don't have this experience… I am self aware to know that I am not in High MMR because I prefer fun builds over ideal ones but I know the game, 1200 hours… and I am repeatedly getting people that seem to not understand anything, game after game of that where at least one person is totally clueless and the killers are all over the place, either brand new or extremely good… hard to tell with the judgement players cause she's so new and different but my games have been nightmarish for team coordination, tons of survivors just running the killer into the gens being done as well, more than normal
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@deception said:
So far I've had some issues going against the judgment where they'd just sit in the middle of the map and not even chase. Yes those beams are very avoidable but they use revealing perks and snipe us from the middle of the map without even giving chase and it's in avoidable other than moving out of its way.
Yeah that particular playstyle is annoying but very limited, I don't think it will stick around as people get better at her, every game I have played of a judgement just standing somewhere slinging beams across the map ends up with a 3 or 4 out… so yeah its uninteractive but also bad… When people are playing her well I think she is very interactive though and I think in a week or so you'll see more people actually trying to play the game as opposed to just beam slinging.
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@Mikeadatrix said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4112181#Comment_4112181
So what does that make Nurse in your eyes? Free, first DLC killer, and has been the undisputed Queen of DBD for over 10 years now. Ghoul has fallen off in the last 6 months at the highest levels because he's still forced to M1 you to down you and can be punished hard at loops by smart survivors (P100 Ken here, I've seen it plenty of times by comp Survs with bedazzled Steam Profiles) and Jason is definitely strong and a powercrept Huntress/Afton, but the idea that he's PTW is comical. Go play him perkless for 10 games and see how many of those games you 4k5Gens.
thats not what he's saying though is it? He is saying you are far more likely to win with Ghoul or Jason because they're just way easier than judgement is. you're describing being outplayed at pallets and he's talking about The Judgement who ignores them and can hit you anywhere on the map, it just doesn't come free. The Nurse is also in a higher skill tier than Kaneki or Jason… its kinda not comparable. Judgement requires game knowledge, map knowledge, full map awareness to even win… The Ghoul and Jason absolutely don't. and if we're splitting hairs, Jason is even a tier higher than The Ghoul in skill requirement… The Ghoul is a high tier killer because he has extreme mobility and free deep wounds with very low skill baseline. that doesn't mean you don't have to be good at the ghoul to beat high MMR players.
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Maybe not if their kit was harder to use very well but unlike the Nurse and The Blight you don't really need excessive hours on The Ghoul to be decently good with them, its more of a case of "Strong kit that can get a lot of value with minimal effort" than "Strong Kit that is strong because of knowledge and skill on the killer"