DodoSwarm
DodoSwarm
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@Piruluk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4111079#Comment_4111079
What I dont understand many killer players say they need to be given a reason to not tunnel, like what buffs can we give killers compared to instantly winning a game when only 3 survivor alive with multiple gens remaining?
Simply game design issue, its mindblowing how easy to win against majority of survivor teams, all it takes one weak link or missing communication (no discord) and most of teams has 0 odds against a high tier killer.
I can tunnel and also mix with it slugging and then survivors has no answer to this, so the game just miserable as survivor.
If i have to say one thing, its the pure torture, when you realize game lost because the weak link was tunneled out, and you need to repair 2-3 gens or more with 2 people, never gonna happen , you lost but no surrender option, no comeback either because all killer slug for 4k, so hatch wont ever happen
yeah I mean I have been playing more random killer games just waiting for 2v8 or something to come back around and I played a game of huntress yesterday that I had NO BUSINESS winning, straight missing hatchets consistently, chased this ace for a long while and he was just better than me, and still came out with a 3k in the end without tunneling or slugging… I definitely play more survivor but it's like Bafflingly easy to play killer and people act like its some insane challenge in the current state of the game.. it Just Isn't…
I understand thats "low MMR" because I don't play huntress but I am telling you I was considerably worse than these people, there is no reason a killer should be able to make this many mistakes and win the game soundly. the only reason it was a 3k and not a 4k is because I let Ace leave after i found hatch first. I play Unknown semi consistently with a horrible build (I like building killers with perks that make sense for their character design and lore rather than perks that will win their game, I used to play walk em down myers (no perma T3) a lot before he became a soulless husk) and 3 and 4k… I have an average of a 65-75% killrate on killers and thats without optimal builds or tunneling or slugging for a 4k or any of that|
Meanwhile if a survivor makes one mistake at the wrong time (yes, one survivor out of four) the game's immediately over on a regular basis, especially in solo queue. Survivor is most often punished by doing the "right" things. you're supposed to run the killer away from where gens are being done, if you go down across the map from the gens being done in solo queue and one person comes to save you, by the time the team realizes you're being proxy camped and/or tunneled its already too late, they have to run the entire map to come help but you're going to second hook or you already got put back on hook for the second time then everything has to stop to come save you. Killer gets rewarded for doing this but survivor gets punished severely but what was the alternative? run the killer around the gens being done so people are closer to save you? that's easily punishable and a lose lose… Don't get hooked? how often are survivors in solo queue running killers all game? its insanely rare, its almost always instant hook, instant tunnel, trash experience. -
@pidgeon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4111239#Comment_4111239
it's really not though, people were only using it for the exhaustion or to abuse stb/deli shenanigans. Plus its legit a 4 second nerf.
I used to use vigil a good bit when sloppy butcher was more common. It helped in situations like Thanataphobia and Sloppy Butcher, there's literally nothing wrong with a perk synergizing with other perks, not everything needs to be niche. Vigil is dead. they more than halved the value of the perk.
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@OrionQc24 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4111222#Comment_4111222
I don't understand how sabotaging the game within the first 30s is fun ? If you want to save your friend then do what is necessary even a trade is better than a double down and arguably it's just as bad. Like I am all for using weird builds and atypical strats I'm not a "comp" player but double down at 5 gen is literally selling the game right as we start. I played this game for over 2000 hours now and I can tell you recovering from that is extremely hard and doesn't happen reliably. Again, let your friend go down and wait for the right moment to save them if altruism is what you like. But doing a trade or double down literally lose use the match.
He's saying the sentiment for people who typically want to play survivor initially is that its a cool scary game where you have to survive the killer, if they are newer and its not for some other reason (Trading hooks so they can quit) its probably because they're thinking "Man I should probably save that guy he's just hanging there" I think a much more solid and mandatory tutorial would benefit a lot of people in this case, though I really do miss casual DBD
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@Angy_Quentin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4111188#Comment_4111188
The biggest thing any newbie needs to understand is distortion. And ofc a vet player needs to take chase a lot.
The problem is Distortion got gutted badly for pure stealth, it requires the weakest link to actually be chased directly in order to void any more than one aura read which is unreasonable when there are tons of killers running consistent aura reads. once the new player ends up on hook its likely a tunnel out
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@SpyUA said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4111149#Comment_4111149
Personally I love executioner and I don't see why survivors would hate him, I voted a high score for him, I often forget he exists tho.
IDK, I get destroyed by him a lot but that's hard to really be angry at… its hard to argue that he's too strong or unfair when his primary damage is a skillshot that's pretty easy to miss
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@Danoobiel said:
No.
The only way to fix tunnelling is to incentivise the killer to not to do it, in giving them a bigger reward then getting rid of one player.
Unless that reward is giving the killer more time to win the game, it's not going to happen.
bhvr has stepped away from that design anyway.
I think part of the problem with tunneling though is that some killers are definitely going to still do it because they like making people angry. the "I want people to have a bad day" sentiment is on both sides, survivors have bully squads and killers have people who are hard tunneling at 5 and making sure the game sucks for somebody, the problem is that SWF bully squads are blatantly foregoing the gameplay loop to act like clowns and almost always end up losing against decent killers, but Hard Tunneling is a mix of people doing it without intent to directly BM people and people who definitely are, but it's entirely unreportable because its "technically gameplay".
A true solution would need to Incentivize killers not to do it, give them some kind of consistent alternate option instead of it, and also punish killers for doing it. -
@Angy_Quentin said:
Let them run heavy stealth builds exclusivly on survivor. Oh and let them play killer.
heavy stealth was nerfed quite a bit though both through direct perk nerfs and the extreme increase in aura reading over the years so its kind of just wasting perk slots unless they have enough game knowledge to know when they are hidden IMO
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@SweetbutaPsycho said:
Would honestly be a horrible idea cause way too abusable. You also would need to give killers the same out option a la "2 gens with no hooks=forfeit". Since we all know that skill based matchmaking is just a myth , probably 70-80% of matches would not reach endgame collapse, people would throw on purpose to get into forfeit range, people that want to forfeit while their teammatea dont would just throw, etc. It would cause a whole lot of problems.
Also I don't think the focus for the devs, as they have stated many times, lies in making the game competitively viable but more that people just play their matches from start to finish. After all we have throw penalties, dc penalties and bots to keep people in matches till the end. A forfeit option would go pretty hard against their previous changes.
I definitely get the concern towards people quitting or waiting out an FF but we have to be honest about the state of the game, Survivor in Solo Queue feels absolutely horrible to play right now and in like every third or fourth game someone quits, oftentimes not even a DC just someone not playing the game. I Would agree with the devs sentiment of wanting people to play the game until the very end but they are not going to achieve better results by endorsing and allowing forms of gameplay that people loathe, combined with the already high amount of survivor mismatch in lobbies and then keeping people in the match by increasing penalties rather than increasing reasons to play until the end.
I would agree the killer should be able to forfeit at a point too, as it happens they can already quit and it just stops the game for everyone anyway so why make them get longer queue times if they're getting stomped and obviously need a more valid matchup for them? this would also help overall game queue times for killers because rather than the last few minutes of games feeling hopelessly wasted on a regular basis, people would just go next and be back in queue.
The Devs can say what they want about "not focusing on making the game competitively Viable" but it's pretty clear that's the trend over the years over a fun casual atmosphere.
DBD allows Insane toxicity, some of it is even technically "playing the game to win" despite many players running inflammatory names and participating in those playstyles purely to make people angry, and so they can't be surprised when people want out of matches that are just toxic to experience. its not a case of "The Killer is Winning so they are Toxic" but if i am on hook and there's a survivor lapping the map looking for dull totems I deserve to be able to leave and not be penalized for it.
I am interested in the MMR rework though, maybe it will do a bit of good in making matches less agony, i'm hoping so anyway -
@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4111009#Comment_4111009
You must not know me very well.
I think tunneling is a horrible thing for the game and needs to go, but i just disagree with the methods the devs have tried to deal with it. So bringing that up isn't gonna be a "gotcha" for me.
we aren't arguing lol, I'm not looking for a "Gotcha" im making a point that the game isn't balanced and the devs are drawing weird lines with what is okay and what isn't that are very inconsistent, how would I know you?
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@AliceNull said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4111009#Comment_4111009
Are you using nightlight stats to determine pick/escape rate and overall strength? Those stats are notoriously unreliable, both because of reporting bias and the fact that a lot of perks or even some incredibly strong killers aren't really problems until a certain level of play, and you're not going to see those levels particularly represented in nightlight stats. Like, if we were to base our interpretations off of the stats right this very second, Pig would be the strongest killer in the game, even above the current Power 5, having a higher kill rate than even the lowest skill floor killer of the lot (Ghoul). I think its safe to say thats not the case in reality. Not to mention there isn't a single killer even vaguely meeting BHVR's 60% goals according to these stats.
Even if we were to account the fact that Vigil a passive, its also a passive gets its power by enabling the strongest meta perks that the more casual playerbase aren't using well or even bringing very often. The exhaustion perk its most effectively used with, Sprint Burst, is pretty well known as a perk that takes a fair bit of awareness and effort to use super effectively without wasting it, to the point a lot of people bringing in new players will warn people off the perk entirely, even though it seems the simplest on paper. Then you look at other strong perks that Vigil is a problem with, namely Deliverance and Shoulder The Burden. Both of these are perks that have a high skill floor and are DIRECTLY countered or outright prevented by common mistakes in solo queue, especially at the lower levels most represented by that site in the first place.
Besides, a perk can still be unhealthy for design reasons, not just direct strength that translates into kill or escape rates. Vigil in its live state acts as a pretty heavy enforcer of the current meta without really enabling any interesting side strategies on survivor. It makes the best perks better while also having a pretty heavy chilling effect on a wide variety of perks and add-ons on the killer side (many of which are already middling in strength, and would likely be unhealthy if they were buffed enough to compensate for Vigil's existence) just because invisibly wiping off almost half of any given status (in a LINGERING AOE no less, meaning you can't even tell who has it) just removes the fun or viability of the majority of recovery based status options.IK what you mean but unfortunately DBD doesn't provide proper stat breakdowns like it should, I made this point somewhere else earlier today: DBD has (unfortunately) become a Comp game in spirit in a lot of ways but BHVR has not provided almost any of the basic functions required of a Comp game, one of which is fully broken down stats per MMR Bracket so all we can use is what we have.
I am of the belief that a perk having "too common" of a high impact is a very bad grounds for a nerf. I will agree Vigil helps fortify an already solid Exhaustion perk meta but the only reasons to bring it apart from with exhaustion builds just got entirely nuked from it. I think perks across the board should guarantee an impact if we want to go that route, that's why losing Vigil is such a bad thing. If I am bringing a perk into a game with so many elements of RNG (what killer, what map, what build, what tile layout, what teammates, etc) I want it to be generally good. that is whats enforcing the meta more than anything, it is that Exhaustion perks ALWAYS have an impact, the line of perks related to chests do not, the luck perks do not, the totem perks do not, so on down the line.
And as I said already in this thread: We are going to have to clarify what is unhealthy for design reasons in this game because apparently it is beyond me… Vigil is too unhealthy but Plague isn't, and Tunneling isn't, and that the likes of even the new killer, The Judgement isn't… its an entire killer designed to win by slinging beams of light at people on gens from across the map… i think that's unhealthy, Voiding the point of loops and pallets is unhealthy… the game is absolutely full of unhealthy mechanics and ideas and that is because it doesn't have the framework for a comp game but people are pushing it to be one.
(and to clarify, I am not trying to justify the removal or change of any of those things except for Tunneling as I think its the most unhealthy thing in the game currently and has been for a long time, I am just saying that if we're going to start deciding things are "Unhealthy" rather than OP for kind of non-solid reasons "ehhh just does a little too much" then we better start fixing the glaring issues that are way bigger.) -
@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4110777#Comment_4110777
Good way is sometimes play with one survivor and hold togeather so you can heal or when one of you gets downed then other kicks victor and picks the downed one up but ofcourse this is more viable for swf because positioning and having some distence from charlotte is must but its viable.
Fact is twins are super rare and most of them are either mains or people hust trying them out and these suck but mains usualy dont.
Twins is basically banned in Comp rn because they're so good at slugging btw.
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@100PercentBPMain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4110986#Comment_4110986
it really is unfortunate that the exhausted portion ate so much of the perks power budget because being a passive auramancer is something we are sorely lacking as we have like, Vigil and Leader since Streetwise got reworked. I don't like to see perks being made useless, tbh I'd have just washed my hands with the exhausted portion and just make Vigil the ultimate status effect related perk.
yeah, I used to run vigil a good bit, it's been out of my survivor builds for a bit but it sucks to see it go… it is interesting to see the difference of Developer Response to the issue regarding Judgement and the Developer Response to the issue regarding Vigil. I get that Vigil has existed a long time and Judgement is unreleased but its kind of sad and telling to see how immediately the Devs walked stuff back and clarified their intentions regarding the judgements power nerfs but haven't said anything of value about Vigil.
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@OrionQc24 said:
A DOUBLE DOWN RIGHT AS THE MATCH BEGIN SERVES NO ######### PURPOSE! LET YOUR FRIEND GO DOWN FOR 20S AND UNHOOK THEM AFTER!
I'm making this message bc I kid you not more than half my matches start this way.I think a decent bit of people who are doing this are "playing the game" to a point where you can't report them for griefing but are trying to go next as it puts them right on hook most of the time as they usually "take a hit, unhook, get downed"
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4110947#Comment_4110947
Its not necessarily OP just because of that, but it is problematic. Things can be inherently unhealthy for the game while not actually being overpowered. In fact things can be unhealthy for the game and still be completely underpowered.
okay and I think its pretty easy to argue that a single killer totally negating an entire avenue of survivor gameplay just because that's their power is WAY more unhealthy than Vigil providing a faster recovery against negative status effects. I think you can argue that One survivor being sacrificed before the other three survivors get hooked is WAY more unhealthy than Vigil, its a problem of picking out the wrong things to balance. Vigil, as has been mentioned in this thread, is already below the 40% winrate target for escape rate as a perk and therefore is not unreasonably powerful. it can be measured this way because it is a perk that works as a passive and not an active, you have to look at perks like DH and DS differently because they provide an active skill component and might be better than direct winrate actually reports and people who are dying with those might just be losing more because they can't use them well. Vigil is a status cleanser and its fine… or was fine… now its pretty bad.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4110909#Comment_4110909
So just because they aren't played that often its ok if there is a perk that counters them? How does that make sense?
That wasn't my point, though, It was yours. I was just responding to your point that the nerf might bring back clown and freddy mains all of the sudden, which It will not.
My personal stance is just because something counters one killer more than the next doesn't make it OP. that's why I have repeatedly brought the Plague into the discussion, because her power destroys healing in its entirety, totally invalidates dozens of perks and builds, do you think that is OP? I Don't, because the Plague is a lower tier killer who doesn't get played much anyway. but saying that Vigil needs to be gutted because it is disproportionately affecting Freddy and Clown is the exact same thing as saying that the Plague should be gutted because she counters healing. to reiterate yet again: This is a double standard. -
@Xendritch said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4110884#Comment_4110884
TOTH is getting completely reworked so this isn't going to matter in a month and a half.
yeah I think the totem rework serves everyone better as opposed to another perk rework.
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@Snapshot said:
Tbh even in the PTB I didn't really have ANY issue dodging long-range snipes. Once you see the killer do it, you expect it.
It's just a part of how this killer plays. I hope they don't add any other hand-holding for survivors and I'm glad the bigger visual indicator is not applied on release
Imagine having an indicator when Myers or GF stalks you 😭There is an indicator when you are in imminent danger from both Myers and Ghostface, though. first and most obviously the unmistakable "Exposed" Sound but also the red ring from ghost face and the Myers sound to inform survivors that he has stalked enough to use his power. Having an indicator for Judgement would put them on the same level Myers and Ghostface already are on.
Stalk is not equivalent to "you are about to receive damage", that's why myers and ghostfaces indicators are hidden until they pose an immediate threat of downing someone VIA Exposed status.
The Pig does not have this because she does not have exposed in her kit, although there is still an SFX when she chooses to use her lunge rather than grab off of gen or sneak up for a hit.
The reasoning being used for Judgement is that even if it isn't exposed status instant down, people deserve to have proper warning so that they can react to damage and unlike myers, ghostface, or the pig, Judgement can aim targeted damage at a player without being anywhere near them. The Nurses TP has an audio queue, Trickster daggers aren't used to snipe but even they "clink" off of objects… the huntress hatchet requires quite a bit more skill to hit at orbital range, more than Judgements beam ever will and AFAIK its the only example of a hit from somewhere that survivors aren't given a particularly good warning about, and it still has a SFX its just kind of quiet unless its the Eddie variant then its just obnoxious. -
Yeah that sounds about right, way too much outrage towards something entirely unknown. Nobody knows what release will look like for a killer with such an overwhelmingly strong power even with high skill requirements. if its too weak on release just remove the extra warning… no big deal.
Forums are half overrun over a nerf to something unreleased… I get the worry that the killer they want to play will be weaker than it should but at least wait and see. -
@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4110737#Comment_4110737
Moving the goal posts again. Ever think that perhaps the reason there are so few is because of this perk?
no, we don't. there aren't many Clown and Freddy mains because people like other killers more. Freddy is based off of the far less popular remake of Nightmare on Elm Street and the Clown is a low draw non IP Killer, Ghostface sucks too but I see him a fair bit because people like scream, his entire kit is countered by exhaustion perks which are way more common in different forms and more relevant than Vigil.
and for the people who play to be as optimal and win as brutally as possible they are playing killers with more aggressive powers than Freddy or the Clown, they will not be played more all of the sudden because Vigil was nerfed. if you look at the killer options you have stuff like "Teleports through terrain with a low cooldown", "Almost Constant Exposed + Long Lunge + Pallet Break", "Throws Spears, can move quickly while obscuring vision, blocks vaults, has an execute built into his kit", and then "Fat Bottle Guy" or "Knock off Freddy Krueger" that disparity isnt changing with the vigil nerf. -
@Dreigonix said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109778#Comment_4109778
Judgement just got shot in the back of the head, Merchant is still unplayable, and gen speeds are so fast that killers have to tunnel to stand a chance, but when you're the victim of a bad BHVR decision, then it's a problem.
Judgement isn't even released yet so lets wait and see if she needs a buff, Skull merchant is very playable she just isn't very good (she is getting reworked actively, and her kit on release is based around camping gens, which people don't like, and she was nerfed for being way too strong, albeit overnerfed as Behaviour tends to do. Gen Speeds just aren't that fast, especially not when people are bringing more anti tunnel perks than ever as opposed to gen speed builds.. but the last thing is true… somehow BHVR cannot balance anything almost ever in any way that makes anybody happy… its like its gotta be an inside joke at BHVR that they hate people complaining so they just ruin whatever they're complaining about and move on.
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@Darkest_Night said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4110821#Comment_4110821
It takes away the agency we wanted. As someone who actually streams, this is a stupid change. If you are reading chat mid chase( which you shouldn't do anyway) you're most likely going to get hit. That's the risk you run
I mean TBF I agree that no change should be made on behalf of streamers QOL that directly influence gameplay but its not being nerfed for people who are in chase, its being nerfed against being used to snipe people on gens as the devs believe people will not have enough reaction time to make it fair… IDK how that will look on launch, i think it'll be clear pretty quick whether the nerf should be reversed or not
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@Dokta_Carter said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4110883#Comment_4110883
I can see what you mean
The game does appear to rotate around hooks rather then gens. And sadly, it doesn't help that the ecosystem we have been in has pushed that.
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We would need a system that promotes that play style. Make it feel better, and gives a bit of fun. And I want hope it comes, but the change has to be good with efficiency. Because making the game revolve around only speed/movement will gradually kill the game at a quick pace
Yeah I mean as I said earlier I think the ultimate "Good" end of this would be that Survivors are unique to themselves (rather than husks for 4 perk slots and an item) and that killers are even more unique and imposing. There obviously has to be an objective or objectives but I don't really like that the "Wincondition" is the same for killers and survivors every game.
Just because the entity Snatched Myers from Haddonfield doesn't mean he should be anything less than himself. but because the general release style is to bend killers to criteria rather than bend criteria to killers, we get a lot of uninspired outcomes i think. its also why survivor feels so painful right now, they suffer the most with lack of identity because they have none, Quentin is the same as Mikaela who is the same as Jeff who is the same as Laurie and so on… personally I actually liked Tokyo Ghoul up until a point where i think the show fell off but the Kaneki in DBD does NOT feel like the Kaneki from Tokyo Ghoul at all, and its because they made the whole design about how well he could traverse the map and pressure and loop, etc and then threw a little tokyo ghoul influence in afterwards.I think its more reasonable to settle somewhere in between though as I understand that giving every killer a game that is their own is a HUGE undertaking and just not realistic, it would have to be a different game at that point. so because it is DBD I think it's definitely time to shake up the foundation a little bit and add something else to do in a match, something else to be contested, maybe a sort of neutral ground that is a win condition for both survivors and killers for different reasons… just anything to make it less of the same, by extension that would probably kill tunneling mostly for people who aren't doing it out of spite (because some people definitely do)
In other words: something that is very hard for survivors to accomplish but can be done if the killer is too busy guarding one person on a hook… don't know what that would look like in practice and there would absolutely have to be equal returns for the killer, something to be gained from a change like that for their side as well but I am very interested in the idea -
@Xendritch said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4110758#Comment_4110758
It's called counterforce, small game, detective's hunch, extrasensory perception. Take your pick, there's literally enough perks to run a full totem hate build so you have no excuse.
I think the problem is that TOTH makes totems way too strong with certain characters but on the other hand without it they are way too week, that's why its a balance hell.
Those perks do help but it doesn't matter when you're screaming half way through cleansing a totem in TOTH and it resets or you have to spend a considerable amount of time contesting totems instead of advancing the game from the survivor perspective depending on totem RNG and how the killer is defending them, TOTH is bad because the singular perk is affecting how viable all hexes are in general. it could be entirely redone to be something totally else and totems just be longer to cleanse across the board with either slow regression or no regression on them.
also, on the flipside if someone is running a totem build and you don't have TOTH you wasted a perk slot because its gone in 10 seconds sometimes, its just unhealthy from both sides -
@Dokta_Carter said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4110856#Comment_4110856
There is something I would really really like to say as I play solo q a lot
The main reason I go to Second stage, is because my teammates are often not paying attention to the HUD at all, like I've legit had a survivor crouch walk to me while the killer is mid chase.
Also, often wise I do want to point out that killers have two rule sets they have to play by and I'm not talking survivor rule book crap, I'm talking
Efficiency rules vs Kind rules.
As well survivors have three teammates for their main objective(gens) and if your teammates are competent(which I'm not saying high skill I'm saying just can see the game flow) can take advantage of certain time frames that leave a killer kind of gobsmacked with how fast Gens pop when they think they are doing fine.
Also you can not blame a killer for returning to hook when a survivor doesn't wait till a killer is far away or mid chase to save.
The major problem with this game is Competency. On both sides.
If a killer hyper focus a strong survivor, and cant catch them at a good pace, that's the killers fault 100%. If a killer hard tunnels and the gens are flying that's the killers fault.
You have to agree that it's more Competency(with the game) being the problem over all in this game, because otherwise you are kind of lying to yourself. Because what makes or breaks a good killer and survivor is knowing the game
no, I agree with you, I think that the reason so many points sound framed against the killer rather than truly neutral is because by definition the Killer is the power role in DBD, I understand that survivors can contribute to why a killer does something people generally don't like. If you force your way into blocking a hit after being unhooked and then get downed after that and put back on hook it's your own fault.
I think that maybe the best, most neutral way to put it is that for various factors the game plays more around hooks than around generators, Physically I Mean. there are definitely games where a killer is roaming and there are long chases or killers choose to camp a 3gen (some killers playstyles are kind of built for that over other strategies) and playing around hooks is just always a benefit of the killer not the survivor. that's just the way it shakes out, the only reason survivors have to go to a hook is because someone was caught and put on one (or to sabo before they get put on it), but survivors cant win the game around them, the killer can, but doesn't have to.
For the Killer, they can win by Slugging, or by hooking and oftentimes its the latter as a result of the former. Ex: Someone gets hooked, someone is not paying attention and runs the killer back to the hook and gets downed next to it and that's a game winning scenario for the killer right away.
Basically the issue is that what's being contested most often is not the "Main Objective" for survivors, it feels like the actual point of contest for gens is people pre-running when they hear a terror radius. but the killer is most at an advantage when they can force a scenario that forces survivors to run to them which is the hook. that's why the game state feels so unhealthy imo and why I said the core gameplay should expand. it isn't an easy issue to solve either, people love to say (I am one of them) just remove tunneling and slugging but if we're being realistic its not like a quick patch its the engrained meta in the game that happens in most matches as a result of the gameplay elements in play. IF Survivors only win by Generators then just make them come to the hook and you win as a killer. (Hence Pain Res, Corrupt Intervention, Dead Mans Switch ever prevalent meta) because survivors can run for 100 hours and they cant win unless they can do the gens. In other words: Survivors goal is to waste time and Killers goal is to not let them. but the "Tom And Jerry" sort of setting DBD was supposed to be has kind of fallen by the wayside because its considerably more valuable for a killer to pressure by proxy camping a hook and forcing survivors to run at them and I think that's a core system that might need to be changed.
Personally I don't have fun doing that as a killer either its just standing there with a hammer and hitting people when they run to you and then on the flipside its frustrating when you do eventually get outplayed (usually by a SWF) and you threw the game because they came to you and you couldn't keep them there. but that's just not the gameplay loop I want and I think most survivors feel the same way, overwhelmingly so in Solo Queue. it kind of removes the tension of "horror" and makes it the tension of "comp" and I dont play DBD to experience a Comp setting. -
@Dreigonix said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4110856#Comment_4110856
Agreed with most of this, but the initial framing is flawed. To paraphrase zuhkashi:
The survivor team has to repair five gens, open the gates, and escape while racing the killer's hook progress.
The killer has to find survivors, win chases, carry survivors, hook survivors, protect gens, manage map pressure, predict where survivors will rotate, keep track of hook states, prevent resets, watch for flashlights, sabos, and body-blocks which can all cause a minutes-long play to have been entirely wasted, and somehow be in multiple places at once, while effectively racing a 90-second-maximum clock for each gen with a single survivor on it. Note that there is only one killer doing their objectives and four survivors doing the survivor team's objectives.
IK what you mean, I tend to play killer without doing the things I personally hate about the killer when I play survivor so my take on killer has always been that they themselves are too limited. I don't really care for the fact that killers are made and designed around how well they can patrol gens and loop pallets, it just makes the whole feel of the game fall away for me. I greatly appreciate things like Ghostface and Old Myers for this reason, and killer tier has never mattered to me personally (although I fully understand why people don't want to repeatedly lose on their favorite killers) I see all of these horror giants and kinda just wish there was more to them you know? why wouldn't michael myers objectives at least bend towards his character and presence a little bit…? I don't really get a sense of "Man this is like SAW" when i am facing the pig, its usually someone getting followed around until their head explodes, the saw traps feel less like something from SAW and more like a short generator that you die as a result of not doing immediately. I think objective should bend to a killer, not killer bend to an objective, and as a result survivors from the outset enter into that killers wheelhouse and then have to escape it, overcoming the killer not the map… does that make sense?
I think Jason is a reasonably good example of a well designed killer for example, Jasons whole thing is an undead, unstoppable monster that walks through doors and hits people with a machete, appearing and dissapearing seemingly at will… Behaviour did a generally good job of capturing this IMO, and if they went just a little bit farther it could even be great… -
@Leon_van_Straken said:
You guys see Twins that much?`
I see twins maybe 1 to 2 times a month and I play a lot of survivor.
Since WglF won´t leave my build except I take Boon Exponential Slugging isnßt that big problem either.
saw them twice yesterday, a video just came out about why they're banned in comp so naturally people are trying it out.
https://youtu.be/OizZhN-D-O4
If their primary playstyle is slugging and standing on top of people and that primary playstyle is only countered by a few perks she needs a total rework. that's my take on it at least. DBD needs to stop making killers that feel like BM to play against, that will do some good for the toxicity problem too. and there's a big difference between getting soundly beaten by a huntress or a demo, even a blight or nurse IMO as strong as they are and having to face a killer that just feels bad to experience from the outset like Legion, Twins, Plague, Pig… and it doesn't have anything to do with how strong they are, its the nature of how badly their power interacts with people Ex: Constantly mending, slugging for a 4k from the beginning, never able to heal, throwing up constantly, Purposfully abusing chase mechanics to ensure someones trap goes off.. these things don't inspire a sense of "I can win this and I want to".
The Twins is the worst of them, Its a nightmare, and its nice that she's very rare to see but she needs a lot of changes IMO. -
@Piruluk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4110818#Comment_4110818
Actually no, for survivor side there is no winning once a survivor dead, as hatch can only spawn if 3 dead, and killer can make 100% sure with slugging that hatch never spawns, and they do almost always. So essentially survivors act as a cattle for killer when even one dies, with many gens remaining, this is outside of player control
yep, there's examples of Stomps in every PvP game, they all have FF options. either you aren't penalized for leaving (like in BR style PVP or Team based Open lobby PvP like COD or TF2), or you are offered an out if you realize you have lost. Holding people hostage is a bad game design. someone plays badly, gets hooked, gets tunneled, people are getting hit trying to rescue, gens just aren't done and everyones on death hook + theres a dead survivor from the tunnel? its an FF, game is over, making people play it past that is where a lot of this animosity is coming from in post game.
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@Piruluk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4110710#Comment_4110710
Whats the point playing when 3-5 gens remaining and only 3 survivors left alive?
At that point truly waste of the time, the killer won and will go for 4K so survivor slugged so killer prevents the hatch even spawning. And survivors has no way to win, I dont know after 100th time feels total waste of time
whats the point of playing a game made for 4 people when one person is dead and barely any of the objective is completed? if people have the sentiment that they want to play it out to win that's awesome, they should do that. if an entire survivor team is done, the game is over anyway, its just going to be a waste of time until the killer finds and kills everyone. is DBD a comp matchmade game or not? if it isn't then why is everyone so obsessed with Kill/Escape rates and build efficiency? if it is, where are common sense comp game options like "ahh, games over, i'll spare us the rest of the time and we'll move on"?
People don't want to admit that DBD has way too many matches that are curb stomps and people deserve to have an out if they're getting curb stomped, its a mismatch, let them leave. to prevent people from leaving as soon as something goes wrong or its a killer they don't like only let them leave after a certain point in the game. griefing is already reportable, it will be no less obvious if someone is outright griefing until FF, just report them. -
@ShanoaLegendaryPlz said:
They try to limmit abruptly ending the round, as much as possible. Tome challenges still exist requiring certain conditions to be met, which if everyone can just shut the match off at any time skipping any segment of the game, challenges and achievements will be much worse.
And the game is built in kind of an "it ain't over till its over" kind of mode, where any 1 player can still get extra points for escaping through hatch (or even finnish challenges/achievements) or a killer can snowball and get the whole team down even if the door is open (I somehow managed it on deathslinger).
The more ways to quit the game early we add, the more we just chop the game into pieces where noone wants to play this or that phase of the game, or noone wants to play against _____ killer or perks so forfeight every time.
We have gotten to the point where we now have so many second chances that we don't even want to use them all anymore, and noone wants to fight to the last man standing anymore because a free go next exists.
the game is over. I specifically described a FF option in two of the most hated experiences in DBD: Immediate DC right after the match starts, nobody should be forced to play that match, and Endgame slugging for hatch. "it's still technically winnable" okay cool and 99% of the time its just laying on the ground for 2-3 minutes while the killer wanders around the map, just allow a FF at that point "Congrats bro you won, we don't want to lay on our face for 3 minutes" seems pretty reasonable to me.
its like people don't read, there comes an obvious point when games are lost, especially in Solo Queue, if everyones on death hook or dead at 5gens what usually happens is people just give up and stand there or sprint around the edge of the map, or outright DC anyways, just let them FF, go next… that's literally all there is to it. save people some time on both sides. -
@Dreigonix said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4110715#Comment_4110715
Agreed. Killers have to juggle a hundred objectives at once; survivors should have more stuff they have to do.
I mean not really, Killers have to juggle 8 gens at once and survivors have to juggle 8 gens at once… its stale, is what i am saying… most killers can quickly void filler pallets and lockers feel obsolete as a way to hide, its just for perk interaction or brief killer power interaction (except The Dredge) and I am not even saying Lockers or pallets or whatever should go away, I am just saying side objectives feel not worth doing, hex builds in their strongest form are a nightmare, hex builds in their weakest forms dont work at all, boons mostly suck unless used in a SWF and people who run them in solo queue tend to grief the game by prioritizing the uptime of a boon over the generators… I think these are indirect factors that influence why tunneling is so prevalent…
there's just not that much to do ultimately, if a killer runs someone down early, throws them on the hook… 90% of the time people are coming back to it right away and you can just proxy camp it and wait and then they come because they have to unhook their teammate and you get free hits on them at the hook, then you can run down the guy you're tunneling again… rinse and repeat. that's happening so often because thats all thats going on. from the killer POV: Why not, they ran into a bad part of the map and they're hooked by a 3gen or a hard place to save from and I know that their team has to come get them. its basically the overpunishing of a part of the game that has to happen. if theres a game where a killer gets zero hooks its just a severe mismatch by definition but if a single survivor gets hooked its immediately a free snowball option for killers because survivors have to leave their only objective (if they are even doing it) and run to save their teammate. The UI to see what your team is doing helped a little but even still people just go to second hook kind of a lot in solo queue from camping alone because by the time Solo Queue survivors even realize that the killer is proxy camping, if they were doing the right thing and doing a gen on the opposite side of the map, they get punished for that and don't have enough time to reach the surv on hook. sometimes just to rescue someone who was hooked a single time in an inopportune place it takes all three survivors to even rescue them. that experience is absolutely horrible in solo queue and rarely works out for survivors…
this is why pain res is still so popular, kick a gen without being there for your first hook buys you some time and sets survivors back without you even having to leave the hook, when whoever comes to rescue you get a free hit on the hook, or two… so you bought yourself a kick on a gen across the map without moving and free injured states… these things overwhelmingly harm solo queue over SWF teams though, because there's no proper way to communicate that it's happening until its already too late most of the time. someone is hooked, pain res goes off, Dead Mans Switch, you have to find something else to do for some time anyway, might as well get the unhook, run into the killer who is waiting for you to do that, ultimately you have to get hit to get the unhook because the anticamp is very easy to exploit as killer, you die… the only mistake made there for the survivors is literally the first person who was put on the hook, the second survivor was on a gen, pain res, DMS, runs to save but the killer is standing there waiting to chase you into the hook so he gets a free down from it, you die for the act of having to save a teammate, or the alternative is that all survivors show up and the game stalls because one person got hooked. bad game design, its no wonder that it feels like its Griefing because survivors are losing because the best killer strategy is to win Via overpunishing people for saving their teammates off of a hook.
There are just too many situation hook proxy into a tunnel makes too much sense from a POV of winning for the killer, that's a bad game design. that's why perk changes won't fix it, it has to be totally voided from the game with some kind of compensation for killers to ensure they still have solid options to win. -
@Dreigonix said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4110702#Comment_4110702
I agree that tunneling is a problem— but keep in mind, killers tunnel because there is physically not enough time to hook everyone before the gens fly. The tunneling problem is downstream of the gen-speed problem. Punishing killers for tunneling is like punishing a starving mother for stealing a loaf of bread; you're not solving the root of the problem.
absolutely insane comparison at the end of the point there ngl but regardless The truth of the matter is that Tunneling has been Cemented as the best option in a lot of games for a lot of killers, which makes it way more oppressive when its being done by people who are very good at that killer or are already playing a high tier killer… it's just every single game, its an outlier when its not someone tunneling and that's why the game needs to change so that it isn't valid but also so it wouldn't be necessary at all. I think part of what feels lacking in DBD to me right now is how narrow the objective is: 5gens / 4 Kills. the only other objectives ever are when killers have a side game in their kit or when there's hexes/boons in play which usually don't feel good to have to deal with.
I think it makes a lot of sense for the match goal to widen, I think it will help with the staleness of games, it will lead to more killer innovation and more ways to play towards winning as a survivor… I am not even sure what that might look like in practice but the far end is that the objectives to escape are different per killer, though I understand how extreme that is as a concept its just unreasonable for the game to shift that much all of the sudden, but I wouldn't mind the base game changing you know? its just been hatch or door for years and years and for killer its orbit gens or a hooked person so that i can keep pressure on the match and win… -
Y'all can downvote this all you want to but it's literally a win for a killer. people deserve to decide they are done, there's not really an argument against it. you gain MMR, you gain Pips, you get a 4k. Survivor quitting has been a seriously common problem since this game started and there's no reason people should have to play a 4v1 game as a 3v1 from the start, there's also no reason to be against the game just ending at the end. if you are slugging for a 4k and both survivors agree they are fine with moving on you get your 4k and they get to move on instead of laying on their face on the ground.
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@Hoopme said:
Terrible idea cause it would just cause Go next syndrome to be worse
thats never going away. at some point people are going to have to face the fact that people don't want to lay on the ground for 3 minutes at the end of a game that is already lost while the killer hunts for the other person who's just in a locker or crouching somewhere. if someone gets downed in 12 seconds and DCs, the game is ruined for the other 3, its a go next situation anyway. I Elaborated on this for a reason: there should be a certain amount of time that has to pass before a Forfeit is possible to prevent killer skipping, unless someone DCs at the very beginning.
Someone DCing as soon as the match starts is already no different than someone DCing in loading which kicks people back to the lobby regardless. "Go Next Syndrome" is a case of one or two people deciding the game is already over for them and just not playing. as it stands, I give up on winning on a regular basis, if you play solo queue a lot theres multiple matches a day that feel hopeless and its inevitable you run into games where people do more than know they can't win, they quit, that ruins the game for people who still do want to play it. there's nothing wrong with a mutual agreement the game is over, it rewards the other party and permits the other players to move on without penalty to queue. -
It has been particularly bad after the RGMs left, its so bad right now that it's rare to get into a solo queue game that is even fun. Its just a cycle of "Man, this game is over at 2 minutes" all it takes is someone getting tunneled, unhooked, and hooked again and the games over against the higher tier killers… its just not a fun experience. I would just rather not see those types of strategies, they arent fun or engaging and they make the game as boring as possible.
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@Dokta_Carter said:
If, and only if it ends the match immediately I can see the appeal, which I assume you mean by it counts as a 4k.
And personally I think it should only be available with three or more survivors in match. Tmwith two it makes no sense in my honest opinion
yes, it would immediately end the match or at the very least allow the killer to DC and it still be counted as a win. and the reason I Included the slug + find hatch and 4k scenario is that it just feels bad to have to be stuck in, if the killer wants the 4k that bad and both survivors agree to forfeit IDK why its bad, it would just save everyone time at that point.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4110220#Comment_4110220
No, thats not the case. The game is literally a 1v4, by DEFINITION AND DESIGN the one should be stronger than the 4 when looked at individually. The killer SHOULD be stronger in the 1v1. If an entire team of survivors are all taking altrustic perks and get countered by a plague, that is on them for all playing the exact same build. It is a team game for the survivors, they need to coordinate as a team to win.
"thats on them" okay buddy Solo Queue exists. Its a team game dominated by solo queue where people barely coordinate at all until upper MMR. Totally Nullifying dozens of perks is not a matter of "the killer should be stronger" because the plague isn't even in the upper tiers of killers, its a matter of bad design if you want to put DBD fully in the light of a comp game. there should NEVER be a character like that in a game that is supposed to be taken seriously as an Even match (Even as in 4 survivors equal 1 Killer) but it does. that's the reason I am using it as an example against Vigil, this game just isn't capable of being reasonably balanced because its an Asymm with different killers that have different counters and perks are RNG because you don't know what you are facing. if we go the route of "this perk disproportionately affects two characters but is generally fine against the rest then a ton of stuff has to get changed in this game. personally I don't think it does but people appear to think DBD can be perfectly balanced despite a total lack of comp framework
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@Dokta_Carter said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4110640#Comment_4110640
The problem with Judgement in comparison to nurse, is that nurse still requires you to pay more attention in comparison to Judgement.
Personally I think having a hud alert for it in general is a poor idea.
Plus it doesn't help in all honesty, using that as the reason, although it might not be the main but stating it? Paints them in a bad light to the community.
i'm not necessarily against reverting the nerf, I am just wary of the outrage, I will decide what I think on release, the outrage right now seems a little performative to me just because we can't possibly know until full release
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@Your_Dad_Playing_DbD said:
Respectfully, this is a terrible idea. This would result in far more quitting and giving up than there already is.
Yeah, I get what you're saying but that should be available after a certain timestamp in games if thats what everyone wants to do, otherwise it's just people stuck somewhere none of them want to be which is increasing hostile interaction in this game already. They can even make it penalize survivors, lower their monthly rank, etc but It does need to be implemented.
This game is moving towards being a comp style game more and more every year and its time to start adding basic functions of comp games if that is going to be the case. Proper Ranks, Ability to FF, Better Comms (yes, even besides the proposed preset wheel), etc… but I think FF as an option is relatively non-invasive compared to other system changes that would need to occur.
Also, if people are disproportionately leaving against certain things… maybe its time to consider whether they are a good design or not. -
@HoodedWildKard said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4110626#Comment_4110626
Yeah as i said in my previous comment. Did that, had an experienced mate on hand to heal and demostrate stuff in chase. But yh dbd really isn't accessible for players with less than several hundred hours. It honestly surprises me that anyone bothers to keep it up when starting dbd as a surv player.
Largely I think its the hope of the setting, if you like Classic Slasher horror there's no other game but DBD… F13 had the copyright dispute and TCM / Evil Dead / VHS / Ghost Busters / ETC were short lived and I would argue lacked longevity from the outset in the way DBD has because there are so many IPs in DBD
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I'm Unknowning It!
(I Based my ranking of him based on my personal experience playing killers of different types) -
@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4110606#Comment_4110606
Quite literally no correlation. The change was made for people being oblivious which tell that to anyone and they would look at you with confusion. Would it NOT be right to be punished for not paying attention?
The reason given was definitely bad but that doesn't make the change bad I think is the biggest point, Judgement might release a little weak, I would imagine the Nurse, if released today would feel weak on release… I just like the idea of great killer powers also having great drawbacks, when you consider how extreme some killer powers are now compared to "Bear Trap" or "Kind of Invisible but not really, just a little bit" people are arguing over whether a cross map shot is fast enough or too obvious and I think its crazy that there's even such a thing as a cross map terrain ignoring snipe… I'm skeptical of how it'll launch, maybe it really will be too weak with the new changes but I wouldn't be surprised if The Judgement quickly becomes a high tier killer once people put real hours behind it.
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@HoodedWildKard said:
Trying to introduce a friend to dbd. And even running as a 4 man swf with 3 experienced players every game we played tonight was a hatch game, because one weak link survivor kills a team stone dead.
So anyone have ideas to mitigate this? After 10 years and an insane glut of killer and perk mechanics to learn, I'm honestly surprised that the game retains any new players whatsoever at this point.
I know we have a tutorial overhaul coming. But we could do with a way to make the game less punishing for new players. My friend has literally been hard tunneled in every game they've played once the killer has realised they suck at chase. Aside from one where we got them to hide from the outset and escape through a hatch offering in main.
The game is so anti new player and that is very unhealthy for a game.
This is the side effect of a game like this having MMR, even if DBD has very questionable MMR, if you're not new to the game and you play with decent players and there's three of you and one new player, they're going to be playing in higher MMR. the reverse of this is true as well, if you play with three newer players (I play with my nephew and his friends sometimes) you're going to get more routinely worse killers. Basically DBD has, at this point, become a relatively competitive game for better or worse and in mid level MMR you're going to run into people who have game knowledge. IMO it has crossed the threshold into the "MOBA" type of game territory where it not only takes a LOT of time to acquire enough game knowledge to play consistently decently but also has the drawback of the fact that you aren't playing against someone on equal terms.
@SpyUA said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4110609#Comment_4110609
Lots of new players play killer because either they want to play someone like Jason or they don't have friends to play with, the "too high learning curve" has nothing to do with this, killers do require probably as much and on some killers even more skill then on survivor side so there's a lot to learn on both sides.
There is a lot to learn on both sides but at base, (obviously) killers are faster, stronger, and are the ones doing the killing so a new killer will most likely have a much better time than a new survivor, I don't know that it's even possible to make it any different. Also, if you pick up the game and have been playing one killer, depending on the killer there's definitely a lot to learn about them and their power / what perks work best, ETC. but A new survivor has to learn about a LOT more than that, all of the different killer powers, how to run loops effeciently (as obviously if they aren't running loops efficiently even against a bad killer they are getting caught), How to play into certain game situations VS different kinds of killers, what situations their aura are being read in, Fast/Medium/Slow Vaults, etc… these are all (By design) situations that survivors are the underdog in, by nature the game is more brutal for survivors, if it wasn't then it wouldn't be an Asymmetrical game. also note that when you start this game you don't have the benefit of most perks and will be very limited against killers, especially if they are playing with friends like in OPs example.
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@Elan said:
Tbh. they can remove hatch. Last survivor can abanson anyway, so if they don't want to play for gates they can leave.
I just abandon after the hatch is closed, no point in even trying to battle the gates against most killers, especially depending on certain gate layouts
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@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4110563#Comment_4110563
Plague is double edged sword at one side you cant heal but on other side she has no power and is super tall m1 who leaves smoke behind her so she is easier to see and read when looping plus people rin on gens due to fact they cant heal.
Only thing that keeps her strong are two main things first is soloq teammates that are unorganised and give her power/red puke fontain in very reacheable place and second are very strong addons that mainly make her that high tier killer. She is rare while she is very strong with good addons and effective against low skilled players but at average she isnt that problematic.
Vigil not only screws few powers but makes meta perks nearly one time stronger like sprintburst,lithe, cages perk that gives you haste on command too.
Tbh as double standart you can take fact that two survivors can double a gen but killer cant team on survivor at this point. Its mainly asymetrical game where one part is bit stronger then other so it cant be symetricsl in gameplay by 100% just dwight cant take down 1v1 mayers like base skin fotnite character can omniman.
Totally Irrelevant by the way. I am not talking about whether Plague is "Strong" or not. Vigil has a low escape rate, its already below the 40% aim, I am talking about the fact that The Plague is allowed to exist despite totally nullifying an entire element of the survivors gameplay, not make it weaker, but totally destroy it. Vigil does not do this to the Clown, it does not do this to Freddy, there are four survivors, if you are having trouble catching someone with vigil then chase literally anyone else.
"Tbh as double standart you can take fact that two survivors can double a gen but killer cant team on survivor at this point. Its mainly asymetrical game where one part is bit stronger then other so it cant be symetricsl in gameplay by 100% just dwight cant take down 1v1 mayers like base skin fotnite character can omniman."
This doesn't even make any sense, at least not in english if you think Vigil is making a survivor anything like a 1 to 1 with a killer you're just Delusional.
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@Fyora said:
It’s as simple as that: you keep nerfing Survivors while releasing strong Killers, and the result is that it’s becoming increasingly impossible to play Survivor unless you’re in a SWF and only using meta perks.
South American server experience is terrible. Nobody wants to play Survivor anymore. Every match is a strong Killer running regression perks, and the result is that EVERY single match has someone giving up, because the outcome is always the same: 5–4 generators still remaining and everyone on their final hook.
Honestly, I don’t even know how people still play Survivor.
Yup, and the best defense people have for this is that its a skill issue. The reality is that "skill" is irrelevent in this debate because the topic isn't "I keep losing so I am mad" its actually "ZERO of the most popular killer metas of which Tunneling STILL dominates are fun to deal with at all"
IDC How behaviour solves it, IDC if killer winrate goes up afterwards , Nobody wants to deal with constant tunneling or hex builds, to the point that even outlier builds are getting abysmal to see… if I see a twins anymore i just immediately assume they're playing to slug all 4 people, IDC what the counterplay is to that, I don't want to play against it and win and I dont want to play against it and lose because it isn't fun and it isn't designed in a healthy way from any angle. -
@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109961#Comment_4109961
Lightborn mostly effects items use (flashbank is item from perk) by removing killer being able to see items in lobby you now make lightborn more fair because its now more rng then compare current state where people slap it on when they see multiple flashlights in lobby.
Vigil needed some nerfs for two main reasons first it can higly effect negatively some effects from certain killers powers not to mention addons but main problem is that even core effect from these killers powers are effected like exposed from ghostface or hinder from clown and freddy which arent best killers mostly on weaker side or their main strenght is in one certain part like chase for clown which vigil effects higly.
Second thing is it makes exhaustion perks way more viable which are already one of best perks in entire game survivors can have except like few of them such as balaced landing (strong perk but depends on map having accesiable highgtounds to fall from which many dont have or have few which limits its power compare to other perk like lithe where its requirement is very easy), smash hit because stunning isnt so easy easpecialy against some killers like ones with range power like nemi,xeno,huntress, jason. The backgroud player is not so bad because you dont need vigil due to it having lov exhaustion cooldown and being used for saves not it chase or to prevent chase so this perk after its nerfs is ok I would say.
Vigil does a lot for just having one perk while lightborn is problem because of the lobby thing which devs diddnt spot and fixed in these 10 years because without killer being able to see items this perk is fine.
Vigil needed some changes/nerfs it did lot of things which mostly screwed all killers that werent top tier with very strong ability to catch up. Mostly used with sprintburst it made these exhaustion meta perks way stronger then they should be like having to wait 40 seconds or 24 is big difference especialy when is meta perk dont you think.
this is, again, a double standard. Plagues existence ruins every healing perk in the game, and every single medkit or altruism build. and that is an across the board thing, every survivor ever who is running a heal build into plague is borderline perkless just for playing the game, people aren't picking vigil queuing up expecting a freddy or a clown, but guess what? Across the board nerf because theres a chance that it MIGHT be a clown and this perk counters him. that's why its a double standard. Plague is rare to see and so is Freddy VS Vigil or Clown VS Vigil. Clown and Freddy are already rare to see regardless. the Exhaustion perks are commonplace because they are the line of perks that have the most real and tangible effects against the killers, and people like when their perks do something instead of situational/rng nonsense when they are trying to win. there is enough RNG in the game already by the way, survivors have to deal with it on just about everything. killers can deal with it on some things too it will be fine.
Ghostfaces power isn't even affected by Vigil, by the way.
Was Vigil a strong perk? yes, but thats because DBD is balancing perks as "strong" based on whether or not they have a consistent impact, which is absolutely crazy. why would I want to use perks that DONT have a consistent impact? -
@jesterkind said:
This exact post is post number 10,000 on my account, and to celebrate this milestone I figured I'd try and push for a little bit of positivity on the forums!
Plus being a bit sappy at the end, I think I've earned it.So, here's the question to spread the positivity: What are you guys enjoying the most about Dead By Daylight right now?
I can start: I'm really enjoying Houndmaster. She has her bugs and they are annoying, but when you get a smooth game with her there is very little in the game as satisfying as what she can offer. Outplaying survivors with Snug, whether it's at a pallet or correctly predicting a long-range snipe without line of slight, feels amazing.It helps that she's pretty damn strong, too, and very versatile. She's rapidly becoming one of my favourite killers in the game!
And, for the sappy part… I love this place. It's grown to be quite a big chunk of my recreational time, I spend time lurking and reading posts even when I'm not posting myself and I don't see that changing any time soon. It'll be twenty thousand before you know it!
I Think 2v8 has been a great experience every time it has come around, I appreciate that DBD can just be about fun again for a little while and not the best builds, most effecient kill rates, and best ways to bully killers.
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@TheMruczek said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4110484#Comment_4110484
you may be right. either way i don't like how bhvr decides to babysit players and let's hope this will end soon
I think this is happening at this point primarily because Behaviour is refusing to take a decisive stance on what kind of game they are trying to run. I tend to be in the casual group, I like the setting and idea behind the game and couldn't care less about how good or bad an individual killer is as long as they feel like they embody who they should be per their IP or their Lore, and I think there are a lot of people who are this way, I personally think survivors should be more than three perks and there should be a reason to play them individually. regardless, the point I am making is that there are also a significant portion of people who play this game and expect it to be competitively balanced, these are two groups of people who don't get along in game and Behaviour seems to be trying to hold them both down simultaneously while losing both parties…
I wish we could get a "this is a comp game" or "this is a casual game" written in stone and then some of this would clear up, I would just leave and the comp enjoyers can have their fun. but instead it's just a little to appease the casuals and the comp enjoyers get angry because they value the time they spend trying to master something, or a little to appease the Comp players and the casual players get angry because they feel like they can't just enjoy the setting.