DodoSwarm
DodoSwarm
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4110490#Comment_4110490
I think looking at the game this way can make it become something of a self-fulfilling prophecy, because most of what you're saying here I'd argue definitely isn't true.
Take stealth as a major example. I see people say stealth is dead all the time, but that's definitely not true if you stop and look at all the perks available to you.
For responding to auras, you have Distortion, Self Preservation, Shadow Step and Off The Record for blocking them, plus We See You and Object Of Obsession for knowing you're being seen and avoiding the killer that way.
For breaking chase, you've got Quick & Quiet, Dance With Me, Overcome, Lucky Break, and a few others.
For general stealth, Iron Will, Lightweight (maybe? Always had a hard time getting a bead on this one), Ghost Notes, No Mither (though this one heavily defines a playstyle), Fixated, Urban Evasion, and any killer-aura reveal perk since those help you keep an eye on where the killer is and thus avoid them seeing you.These are just the perks that are worth using, by the way, there are definitely perks I'd say aren't really worth using at all like Sole Survivor. It's also not counting Fog Vials, which are a stealth tool as well now they're more worth using.
I'm using stealth as an example but it's something that generally applies to most things in the game. You might have to be willing to branch out into new tools, and some playstyles may not be as strong as the general meta tools, but there's plenty that's worth using out there.
in a sense you are right, because I am looking at the game as a game that used to have a much stronger sense of "there is a slasher trapped in an area with me and I have to escape them" and now it just has a sense of meta and best/worst build to survive the same old unchanged stale objective that has always existed, still do 5 gens and get out or don't, and all other survivor "goals" do not work to progress the "win condition" to the point where interacting with the killer is tedious and playing the game without killer interaction is boring. It doesn't feel like any more than a poorly compiled Half Comp game with no practical features present in every other competitive game. that translates to narrow gameplay style, I started playing this game because it has the unique ability to bring so many horror icons together into the same space for a "what if" scenario but decreases them so much so that its just tag with a different pursuer except the game of tag is riddled with gameplay choices that encourage outright griefing. the reason I still play this game is because it is still the only Asymm horror that has the reach to obtain multiple IPs. I used to main Michael Myers because he felt like Michael Myers at least a little bit, now he feels like some random guy that has very little in common with myers other than a very brief stalk and a kitchen knife.
This is why my approach to the nerf of Vigil is extremely negative, as a player that prefers setting over "perfect balance" (Which will never ever be achieved in this game anyway) I prefer to run generalized perks that get me through the nightmare games that I don't want to play at all and allow me to more thoroughly enjoy the increasingly rare games where the killer is playing the game for fun and not to curb stomp people. I don't find tunneling or slugging, or having to contest it to be a fun gameplay loop at all, and I think by further closing in the walls of rigidity towards it being a comp game while also denying basic functions of literally any comp game is bad across the board. and when I do play killer, I prefer to play killers that appear as themselves rather than a stat machine of how well they compare to other killers in comp with a X or Y skin on it based on who it was supposed to be. Ghostface sucks, but he's funny and he at least at some level embodies who the personalities behind Ghost Face were in that they're not serious and almost a parody of slashers but still very much killers. I used to like myers for the same reason, likewise as simple as leatherface is you still se a great deal of the fun exchanges in this game come from Leatherface. and survivors were never given a chance… There is no quentin there is only Wake Up!, Pharmacy, and Vigil and even then they're slowly draining the value out of it.
That is why I said it is a hard disagree and its not going to get reconciled, I am never going to agree with Behaviour trying to balance this game as if it were a comp game while simultaneously denying almost every necessary feature of a comp game, the whole outline of this game is averse to proper comp. but if Behaviour would at least make it public that they don't care what players like me think, its going to be a comp game and here comes proper ranks and MMR, and Seasons, Comms, etc then thats great… I will leave and find another game to play because I am not interested in seeing what makes Asymm so unique slowly be meshed into being yet another comp game. but while there's still hope of the game returning to the idea of the setting over the perfection of the perks, and the identities of the killers and the survivors over the next three to six perks they're going to add that people are going to complain about then I am going to continue to be vocal about changes that are pushing farther out of reach of returning to that. -
@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4110477#Comment_4110477
Not all that many survivor perks are non-viable, though, and even fewer are genuinely just a matter of luck if you get to use them.
You bring up a good case study here in totem perks. It's a matter of chance if the killer has any hexes, so, is that the only use those perks have?
The answer is no, they do more than that. For example, Counterforce may on its own only really be useful for countering hexes, as all it gives you otherwise is BP and emblem score, but what if you bring it alongside Inner Strength and/or Overzealous? What if Small Game or Detective's Hunch isn't used to find hexes, but spots for your boons?This is what I mean when I say there's a lot of variety in the game if you want to go find it. Plenty of tools synergise together in obvious ways and unexpected ways, and most things in the game have at least one decent enough use case. Not to say none are bad, of course, some perks really are just weak, but I find there's a troubling trend that's existed since I started playing about six years ago for players to write off tools immediately, especially if they've recently been nerfed.
Build crafting really isn't being narrowed. Some tools are being nerfed - and some of those do actually end up bad instead of just "good but not as good" - but tools get buffed as well, and there's been plenty of just pretty decent perks in the game for years that haven't been touched in a while. The pool isn't shrinking, and in my experience it's grown a fair bit since I started playing.
its just going to be a hard difference of opinion from me, I know what you are saying but boons are in a terrible state, Circle of Healing which, outside of Exponential, was the only boon to ever be solid, got totally crushed into the ground, and I actually agreed with it being nerfed, it was pretty hard to argue that it was fine in its release state, but Behaviour loves "balancing" things by totally destroying them. Boons suck in Solo Queue, and unlike Hexes, Killers can hear Boon totems from a considerable distance. most of them are negligible in value and the better ones are rarely ever utilized by Solo Queue teams, they create a distraction rather than provide a benefit, 90% of the time players in Solo Queue have a boon they will be setting it up on the first totem they see regardless of where it is or how helpful it is rather than doing things that progress the game.
And Still, my point is that DBD, while having more perks and characters now than it used to, has become more narrow with far less room for "sidequests", Stealth is dead, Distortion was gutted already, Lockers are obsolete regarding gameplay as a base function and are only used in interesting ways with Head on, The Dredge, Killers that need to reload, and Vecna (The Lich) or dodging Friends and BBQ despite being one of a few offered "Base" avenues to operate in the match, Pallets are more dense but less valuable, Gens take longer, Tunneling is more prevalent, unlocking chests and doing dull totems and boons doesn't advance the game for survivors benefit almost ever, the only times that boons see good value is in SWFs that are built around them, and even then I think its a fundamental problem to balance the game around 4man Survivor Teams when a ton of people play it with virtually no communication, even after the addition of the upcoming preset chat wheel its totally incomparable. Survivors are, to restate, just husks that bring nothing individually to the table and don't mix anything up, and their only avenue remains perks that may or may not have value in a match against killers who's perks definitely will have value unless they are trying to do something outlandish. -
@TheMruczek said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4110450#Comment_4110450
killer being hard to play isn't the issue, survivors having an easy counterplay made easier is.
As for ping thing, yeah I agree, issue being it's not on the topic itself. My post criticizes Bhvr game design, Ping will always play some sort of role on any killer so why are we nerfing particullarly this one? Wesker on higher ping can grab you behind walls? Should we nerf him too?the difference between wesker grabbing you behind walls, annoying as it is, is that wesker is in the act of chasing you, not slinging projectiles through walls from across the map.
That's the problem with such an imposing power, it has to have strong drawbacks as well, I am in the camp of not liking the power at all to begin with, it sucks up close, often times outright sliding through people and it encourages just throwing nonsense at people not even engaged in a chase, that's less interactive as a design concept than the Knight, it literally encourages you to fling projectiles at people from a distance that aren't in chase because the projectile is so hard to hit and so janky to work with, that's an awful design concept, I don't know why people would want that personally. I think it will be one of those problems where when you play it, it's going to feel like you should be hitting things with the power but you aren't and when you play against it if you're getting absolutely no-skill sniped from across the map while doing the objective, its going to be a bad experience. either The Judgement will end up seeing play from people who learn to use its power in chase rather than gen snipe, or it will be one of the most loathed killers ever added to the game by survivors because getting hit through the wall by a questionable shot from an M1 killer is already upsetting, its going to be hell when people start complaining about getting hit from the other side of the map when on gens.
I haven't played the judgement myself, I have only seen videos of it, ultimately I may agree with you once they're released onto the main servers, but for now I can't, hard to endorse making such an outright strong power also fairly easy to hit -
@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4110226#Comment_4110226
I don't think it's true that build crafting variety is really going down all that much, and I think it's a mindset that can lead to being more irritated with changes than you might need to be.
Right now, we've actually got a lot of room for creativity in our builds if we want it. Let's look at your example of wanting something that helps with tunneling without needing to be a dedicated anti-tunnel option. This is a pretty good place to look, not just because there's a fair bit of variety but also because Vigil itself had pretty low impact on tunneling, meaning its peers in this regard don't need to be too crazy either.The most obvious things to mention off the bat are just, the exhaustion perks. Specifically the ones that make distance, like Sprint Burst, Lithe, to a lesser extent Balanced Landing, and an even lesser extent Dead Hard.
None of these are dedicated anti-tunnel perks, but they're useful when you're being tunneled. In that vein, you've also got stuff like Resilience for faster vaulting, or Quick & Quiet + Dance With Me as tools that can help when you're being tunneled without being dedicated to it.If we assume any given player is already running an exhaustion perk - not an unreasonable assumption, though I personally don't most of the time - there are lots of things that can support that too. If you're willing to run one dedicated anti-tunnel perk, you can be in a much more solid position.
For example, Sprint Burst or Lithe and Blood Rush is a solid combo that provides potent anti tunnel but decent value when you aren't tunneled. Similarly, DS and either Head On or Plot Twist pushes killers into some lose/lose scenarios while still being relatively useful when you aren't tunneled.The list can go on and on. Second Wind may be a little awkward to use but is quite solid in this regard, Made For This improves your anti-tunnel Endurance while having some use cases outside of that context, Fixated can help you walk off exhaustion, Ghost Notes can do the same and provide an extra benefit too…
It's not just tunneling, either. Any scenario you want, provided it's not too specific, there's probably a pretty decent variety of tools you can bring. I personally find a lot of players just don't have that much willingness to change up their build, which is fine if you're owning it but kind of a concern when it's being presented as a lack of options.
To clarify a few things:
When I say build Creativity is getting narrowed down, it's objectively true, because perks are getting gutted while old perks also remain unviable, that doesn't mean that there arent currently other options but it means its a problematic trend. that's the first part of it, the second part of it is that DBD itself has forced itself to be far more linear than I think it should be, more or less what I mean by that is there are entire categories (Like countering totems as you can go several games without seeing a hex at all making the perks useless otherwise since they are specialized and never guaranteed to have an impact) or bizarrely fun build ideas becoming less and less possible and that is not entirely due to direct perk nerfs over the years, but generally because of a trend towards this game being a "Comp" setting without any of the proper framework for it to be that way. Vigil isn't even amongst the top perks in escape rate, it falls decently below the 40% baseline (where 41% and above would indicate a perk is overperforming)
TLDR for this is: Build Crafting is narrowing because perks are given a narrow avenue to operate in, and even in that narrow avenue the number of perks which are guaranteed to give value are outweighed kind of significantly by those which do not guarantee value or give very little value when measured up against Exhaustion Perks. even a decent amount of the gen perks can be countered by a killer outright, if you're facing a legion but you brought a Gen Buff build for the team you're trolling the game by trying to use your build as legion is getting all of his targets in one place.
I am still in disbelief that Vigil is being written off as "not very impactful" to escape a tunneling killer, one of the fastest ways to get a killer to change their mind about tunneling is to gain distance with an exhaustion perk, Vigil lowers your recovery by several seconds. that's absolutely huge. DBD is a game of seconds.
At the end of the day what I am saying is that survivor perks being diminished further and further over the years feels terrible because perks are the only avenue of expression for survivors who are otherwise a null singular being with no individuality besides which one of six items they want to bring. there's nothing special about playing Quentin over Jill, or Jill over MIkaela… so the feeling of having generally good perks gutted is much worse because it effects all survivors in a much larger way than it does for killers to have a perk nerfed, killers have a power and addons for that power whereas survivors are a blanket statement, they are all the same. with less to play towards and at the same time more to have to know gamewise (killers will always be facing 4 survivors, in High MMR likely with the same groupings of the front runner perks) but survivors could be loading into basically anything, that was a comfort in picking Vigil, because it helped a little against a lot. -
@GroovieAshes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4110455#Comment_4110455
I will answer as best as I can. My escape rate is probably around the desired 40%. I could probably push it higher if I played for the escape but I generally don't because sitting on gens is simply not fun. Escaping doesn't equal a feel of power or fighting back in the Survivor role. Saving and playing aluristic is exciting but so damn niche and risky that you probably end up throwing by even attempting to do it.
I've also noticed that the games we do win as Survivor seem to always be against a newer player or a low tier Killer. They obviously aren't great in the role or I got the 1 out of 10 good teammates and we outplay low tier Killers. The sweats always beat us in Solo Q. I imagine I bounce back and fourth between the lower MMR and Higher or the Q is just thorwing us all together to decrease wait time… who really knows?
As Killer I would say I could 3k to 4k 60% to 70% of the time with Killers that I have practice with and play well. Nurse, Blight, Mastermind, Spirit are my go to Killers that I enjoy playing. Often times I make decisions not to tunnel for example. If I see an unfortunate situation where I keep downing the same Survivor, I will leave them on the ground and leave so they can be picked up. If I played sweaty, I'm sure I could increase this to near 80% Kill rate. And I've been Survivor main for probably the past three years now.
this is a good point by the way
"I imagine I bounce back and forth between the Lower MMR and Higher or the Queue is just throwing us all together to decrease wait time"
IDC what people say, it's pretty evident that DBD has a convoluted MMR system and when you reach "High" MMR on survivor playing solo queue it falls apart because you're dealing with a killer who is actually playing efficiently and has a build setup to compliment that, DBD only releases a generalized escape and kill rate and we have no idea what the breakdown looks like per "Skill Bracket".
I don't know how they can justify balance, or what is strong/weak at all to anyone when we don't know what these differences look like publicly. a decent killer player will curb stomp a decent survivor player almost every time unless everything is aligned against the killer (map, survivor build, RNG of good pallets, etc) and its pretty observable when in a solo queue game too. If Behaviour had actual matchmaking with actual ranks one of the first things people say is "it would increase wait time". Good. then we can see what the actual dispersion of the game looks like, who is stronger and in what situations, how many players are actually "high MMR" and how many totally mismatched games are contributing to perk win/lose rates. In MOBA's there's a detailed breakdown of what exactly is doing good/bad in what ranks and that leads to more directed nerfs based on the real impact of something. Consider Vigil right now, it's "Too Strong" is it? what is its winrate against freddy and the clown directly? what about how well its doing specifically in Low to Medium MMR where the greater majority of the playerbase is?
MMR and proper rankings being absent from a game which has shifted to being marketed as a competitive PvP experience is a major reason the game feels bad to play for survivor right now as well IMO. -
@Your_Dad_Playing_DbD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4110324#Comment_4110324
I don’t disagree with what you’re saying, but all that has been true for basically the game’s entire existence. I don’t understand why some people are saying that the game is somehow worse than ever for survivor players.
I think it is undebatable that it is worse. and it is important to point out that I am not talking about various QOL changes over the years that have made the game feel smoother and fix obvious problems like the strength of old flashlights, but The game has been pushed into a narrow corridor of competitive nature that a good portion of survivor players don't care to experience, a lot more build options used to be more routinely viable then they are now, paired with the fact that over time people have gotten generally better at killer which makes for a "bring the best perks or get destroyed" kind of scenario over and over. many of the most common killer playstyles feel like BM to even deal with whether they're "Valid" playstyles or not… even the anticamp feature feels pretty weak and pretty rarely gets triggered in full because "proxy camping is fine" but that proxy camping is just jason standing outside of the camp range with a spear in hand over his head or myers hiding behind terrain 15ft away waiting to come slug everybody. the Killer justification is "I need to do these things to win" and that's fine, but nobody likes playing games with those strategies present, it immediately turns a game into a chore rather than a game.
A large part of why it is worse is exactly as @AliceNull mentioned, there are killer content creators consistently putting out builds to win as quickly as possible with the best perks and strategies with hundreds of thousands of views, and most survivor content to look out for is "We're going to be running around this hole for 11 minutes and not taking the game seriously" and I still watch a good bit of JRM content, his more seriously styled videos featuring builds that are cool and unique for survivor are horrible and often times he has to play several games to get them to work. it's just incomparable at this point how bad the disparity has become. I rarely check in on killer build videos because I don't personally care about my winrate and like to just have fun playing the game via the killers theme rather than guarding hex totems and plotting 3gens, but I just saw another one put out about the twins, rare as they are… the best and most consistently winning twins strategy is to literally slug for a 4k from the beginning while guarding hex totems the entire time. it curb stomped high tier comp players who couldn't communicate for the sake of the video in about 2 minutes and also beat them soundly when they were allowed to play as a FULL comms SWF. 50,000 hour SWF team. I'm sure that survivors with 400 hours in solo queue want to experience a 4k slug in the first 3 minutes of a match…
Basically: Killer "strategies" that remain frontrunners feel like BM and when you mix that with years of the same strategies being prevalent (tunneling is arguably the worst it has ever been right now), and repeated nerfs on the most consistently valuable perks (Value measured by how many times you get use out of the perk in a round not how good or bad it is directly) you get a bunch of angry people that are tired of the game. -
@shunzetsu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4110335#Comment_4110335
You gave one scenario where this perk *could* be acceptable, but ignore all the unhealthy things it brings. If the devs would want to make this perk only work when a generator gets into a certain completion rate, then they would've made it like that. But that's just not how things are. Killers get free aura reading for zero effort and it kills a huge amount of perks from the survivors side and most definetly the stealth aspect of the game. Don't tell me about lockers now. 99% of the time survivors don't have enough time to jump into a locker without leaving scratch marks. Its absolutely disgusting. Also, how do you talk about Urban Evasion when this perk is literally NEVER EVER played. I haven't seen this perk for the last 1000 games. Even if a survivor decides to bring this perk, its usually working for the killers favor since these players don't really engage in teamplay.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4110293#Comment_4110293
Dude Urban Evasion is a perk that helps killers more than the team. Haven't seen this perk in my last 1000 games at least.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4110336#Comment_4110336
How can you tell me that this perk is fine when there's pretty much no counterplay to it since Distortion got nerfed to the ground?
I don't think Distortion should have been nerfed but I generally believe perks should do something. I think survivor is most consistently on the bad end of perk gutting but just because Distortion is gone doesn't mean I think other perks should start getting gutted too… I think Distortion should come back, I don't think Vigil should be nerfed either. DBD has an increasing number of perks that are so situational they are downright useless, and I think its a bad trend to point out perks that are repeatedly useful as problematic and remove their usefulness.
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@TheMruczek said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4110351#Comment_4110351
Bruv, you cannot be serious about this. It only should take you a quick glance to know what your team is doing. You aren't starring at UI for 29 years wondering what they are doing.
"If the killers power is gaining an advantage of sniping people through terrain without them really having time to see it coming then maybe it does need some changing." You had enough audio and visual cues on PTB to see it coming already. This is dumbing down survivor role at this point and it's impressive you managed to squeeze ping issues. Why? Ping is something not at all relevant to this topic.
The Judgement's changes are weird and make already hard killer even harder to play. Why bother with Judgement when counterplay to it is far far easier than actually play it, not to mention it will take so many hours to be even decent at it and you might as well just play Nurse or Blight and get the same results for far less effort.bro don't talk to me like i'm an Idiot, I absolutely can be serious about this. Videos have been going around showing the problem before nerf, in some situations you would have about 0.5 seconds to react to a beam if you were on a gen. if you happen to be checking what your team is doing that matters a lot, actually. I am not trying to say that I need 3 business days to read the simple UI on the side of the screen, what I am saying is that it's already enough that you can snipe someone through a wall, it doesn't need to be near immediate. when you are dealing with those situations where you get 0.5 seconds to react, and you happen to be looking at UI, or you happen to be hitting a skill check, or any number of other things that require you to briefly divert some of your attention, you might get hit and not have reasonable time to see it coming. it doesn't have the benefit of skill like the huntress hatchet does at that range its just a straight line once people get it down that voids terrain.
Why are people angry that a killer with a much more potent power than… bear trap guy or half invisible man, is made hard to play. that's the point of killer variation. if anything too many killers changed or added in recent history are getting too much for too little (or are entirely broken in an unplayable way, shout out houndmaster) there is nothing wrong with a stronger killer that is equally hard to play. We all know why the Nurse has sat at the top for so long, lets just wait and see how Judgement does in regular gameplay and then nerf or buff it accordingly after public release.
Acting like Ping doesn't insanely affect every killer damage interaction is ridiculous by the way, its always relevant, everyone sees a fair bit of it in their games, to pretend like it isn't relevant in an issue where they're making a snipe style ranged attack more detectable is dishonest. -
I think that using streamers as a Justification to do anything for a game is bad. that being said, think about some things that do exist in the game for everyone, since you mention it making solo queue worse… currently the only UI to know what your team is doing is on the far left side of the screen, doing a generator is one of the best times to look and see what's going on with the team… in that split second you can get sniped, some people just aren't fast enough to dodge something with almost zero warning… it's just the reality of the game.
If the killers power is gaining an advantage of sniping people through terrain without them really having time to see it coming then maybe it does need some changing. I understand that the killer is very difficult to play already, but I think its just one of those things where we'll have to see how the week or so goes after release as to whether or not certain things need to be changed.
For Example: Ping is one of the biggest and most common discrepancies in DBD, maybe previously you could see the beam coming in just enough time to react, add a little ping to the killer and you're getting hit from across map without much warning AND a faulty hitbox. I know ping is another issue entirely but it is something that can affect this killers power in a huge way. even projectile hits from the huntress with high ping can be absolutely mental on occasion.
I think The Judgement will be a case of a killer that looks weak on release but becomes more consistently strong after people have really had time to learn the ins and outs of how she interacts with everything in the game. Ultimately she isnt even in the game yet and i think itll be pretty easy to tell once she's added if her nerfs were justified or not. -
@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4110005#Comment_4110005
"I would like to see the Devs be decisive and vocal about what kind of game DBD will be going forward"
They used to be like that. I don't know when it changed, but they used to update things as they wanted and just let people ######### about it. That's not to say they didn't adjust according to feedback, but they'd have an idea about the direction they wanted to take the game and they'd take it. Somewhere along the line they stopped making the hard decisions themselves and just decided to be led.
Yeah, I am hopeful with the upcoming release of Halloween that it will give them some solid competition (although most asymm games tend to fall away largely because of lack of diverse options) and things to think about… there are several ideas in that game that are extremely beneficial to the Asymm genre like keeping people involved throughout the game even as it shifts towards the survivors losing. In DBD I just see awesome concept characters reduced to statbots at the end of the day… I get that at some point its a different game and not DBD anymore but I don't even think that it's necessary for the exit objective to be the same… Why wouldn't the matches be more designed around the killer who survivors are stepping in to face? Why are survivors no more than perks…
I remember a while ago when they did a "why do you main one survivor and not the others" survey, and it seemed to totally ignore the fact that they're all the same… there's actually no reason to play more than one survivor once you have unlocked the perks… you don't even need to play them to unlock the perks. at least Killers offer a bit of a switchup in gameplay… If you get tired of Bubba then play Deathslinger, or Oni, or whoever and the playstyle will be at least somewhat different but play Fan Favorite characters from various horror settings and its just the same thing with a different skin. further, you're almost incentivized to play only one survivor… the bloodweb is extremely disrespectful of peoples time and why would I switch my survivor when all of my items are on one?
Why isn't there anything Unique about playing Ash VS Quentin? Why doesn't Laurie bring anything unique to the table? you could say "yeah they have unique perks" but they don't and you can use them on anyone and most of them aren't worth using anyway…
DBD has the unique ability to mesh these settings together to create something great, and for all of the problems the game has now it still has something special… Hopefully we will see more of a shift to a revitalization of the entire game rather than continuous balance hell and a slow degradation of the individuality of the very characters and setting that make this game so standout. -
Sorry I disagree… I tend to fall on the survivor side of things but this perk is fine
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@Wraff said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4110326#Comment_4110326
Money. We all know 90% of the perks of borderline worthless because they are so situational
Man, In the wake of the totally uncalled for Vigil nerf I have been trying to make this point and people just think its unheard of: A perk should ALWAYS have value. they consistently nerf perks that do and further narrow the amount of ones worth bringing if you want to win…
Perks should always have an impact, it shouldn't just be the same few. I don't know why that seems to be a foreign concept. -
Because people don't want to feel like they have to bring the same two or three perks over and over and over again. Why do over a hundred perks exist if we're supposed to be bringing the same builds all of the time?
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@Your_Dad_Playing_DbD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4110298#Comment_4110298
”Completely powerless”? How often are you escaping? And related question - do you play killer and are you winning every single match? If the survivor role is as bad as you seem to think it is, then it should show in your performance in the game. I’m a casual solo player and am still having fun playing both sides, so when I hear people say stuff like this I get quite skeptical.
I think it's more of a matter of how the game feels to play. I play both as well and have about a 70% kill rate and a 55% escape rate but the survivor experience is ultimately reliant on more factors. you experience way more problems caused by other people, if you load into a game and you have a teammate crouch walking around the map its just an immediate sign this game is probably going to suck, if you load into a game and someone is getting hard tunneled while another teammate or even both teammates are trying to disrupt and save them and just getting beat down in the process the game is probably going to suck and so on down the line. a lot of killer powers that lean on the obnoxious side of things like Legion and Plague feel gratifying to play as but absolutely not against… so its a ton of things built on top of eachother to make you feel like you have no recourse in a lot of games other than to wait out hatch.
The experience just isn't the same as killer… and I am not trying to imply killer can't have bad games but there is less that can happen which isn't your own fault that can directly lose to your loss. if a survivor is trying way too hard to get a save or a sabo you just down them and move on but thats like a game defining failure for the other survivor players they had no part in…
I think the competitive nature which DBD has slowly eased further and further into feels way worse to play survivor in as opposed to playing killer in. It is much easier to pick up a killer and learn to play them than it is to learn to play survivor effectively against all killers. it's like a lot of the negatives that are naturally brought about by this game are piled on survivor disproportionately when compared to killer. -
@Wiccamanplays said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4110008#Comment_4110008
Nothing you say is actually an argument against nerfing perks that are overtuned, you're just unhappy that it's happening to perks you happen to rely on. I hope that you made the same arguments against nerfing the most egregiously overpowered Killer perks too. If we actually want a diverse perk meta we have to accept that strong perks we like will be nerfed as well as weak perks getting buffed.
Vigil and Sprint Burst don't even really help against strong Killers who have total map control and you can never really escape. They help you pre-run against M1 Killers who have no way of catching up. Dead Hard is useful against almost all Killers (Nurse as always breaks the game) which is why having it basically for free like it used to be was awful for the average Killer. Same way that having a Pain Res every hook or Eruption Incpacitating Survivors was awful for Survivors and now that's gone. The game has actually been getting slowly better balance-wise over the years but my god some people have to be dragged kicking and screaming into the light.Vigil has a 38% escape rate despite being used in 6% of games. I Haven't used Vigil in a good while myself, I do not use DH or Sprint Burst Either. My argument is super valid, you just assumed I am making points because I use these perks and that I am angry my favorite perks are being taken away but that's not even true. The Reason that I used Sprint Burst and Dead Hard as an example is because Garunteed Value should be the baseline, not the exception to the rule. Vigil had near guaranteed value because it was the universal "Recover better" perk which is absolutely fine. The reason the same perks remain near the top despite nerfs is exactly because worthless perks remain worthless, many of which are kind of just BMing your team to even bring because their value is so low. and other categories of perks are totally situational and you could go through 5 games without needing them. The argument is that perks should always provide value, and the ones that do still stay at the top despite nerfs because they always provide value, the ones at the bottom rarely do or outright do not and they won't suddenly be used a bunch more because the other ones are getting gutted.
Also, you cannot compare the impact of Pain Res and Eruption Pre Nerf to Vigil at all. you could basically render three survivors totally irrelevant for half a minute with them, Vigil lets survivors heal and recover a little sooner. I am not arguing those aren't valuable things but clearly its winrate isn't inflated, and the entire reason for its nerf is that "it affects some killers more than others" okay sure, and the Plague makes every single healing perk and build irrelevant from the moment the match starts. tough luck, that's how the game works. -
@apathyinc said:
The game has really shifted away from the slower, creative playstyles that used to define it. The loudest part of the community kept pushing for a speed‑focused meta, and Behaviour tuned the game around that feedback. Now everything feels like a rush with constant info perks, nonstop mobility, and matches that play out like a race instead of a horror game.
The old fun stuff like stealth, weird perk combos, and experimental killers pretty much got erased. What’s left is a shell of what the game used to be, with almost no room for the slower, more atmospheric styles that made DBD special.
this is what I am saying, years ago when I started playing I was hopeful that DBD would continue to be creative and expand to become something able to better bring to life these horror giants but instead its balance and efficiency hell, I don't care how well Michael Myers measures up to The Blight in Kill rate, I care how much Michael Myers measures up to Michael Myers from Halloween. I don't care about balance to the point of being angry when someone gets perk value when I play either survivor or killer so long as the match is fun. I never have tunneled or slugged except when its common sense to do so (people who won't ditch the idea of a flashlight save or hook sabo, etc) and Have always enjoyed the theme of the game over the competition but the Theme is dying and its getting less compelling to play, but I want badly for it to return to that feeling of being a horror slasher setting over a reskinned PvP comp game that doesn't measure up to any real comp games.
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@TicTac said:
I really dont understand the new Myers hate. I have him p100 and played him long before the change. Even then i had a 80% winrate (pwyf-build). Im really interested why people dont like him anymore. Can you explain?
New Myers has an awful dash-bug, but if you take one addon he has the old exposed lunge. And with that he feels like a straight upgrade.
Mode changing: changing between T1 and T2 gives you more options. Personally old T1 felt not like Myers. Being forced to use it, being no threat for the survivor and if you make it to T2, you can never use T1 again.
Basekit buffs: better lunge, break and stun recovery is nice and feels like Movie Myers.
T3: i dont like that i cant 99% T3 anymore to use the stealth to get a free instadown. Jumpscares are kinda gone from his basekit.
Different playstyles: Mirror Myers is better. Higher movement speed and basekit lunge, i think. What kills him is the change to map offerings. But i still think map offerings are bad for the game. Mirror myers is more fun against friends anyway. Hearing them scream is the most fun personally. And tryharding with mirror on Lerys with proxy-camping was also a problem.
Tombstone myers was never my favourite. Iridescent was just a noob stomper. Just a power-fantasy and zero fun for the survivor. And yes, thats kinda movie-accurate, but wanting to play a game and winning with no effort, makes no sense to me. And against good survivor you get maybe one kill. Piece was really strong, but just another way to achieve a 3vs1 as quick as possible aka the same as tunneling. But is that really Myers identity?
I don't mean to say that nothing good at all came from the rework, I think there are some good changes for sure but its pretty undebatable that he doesn't at all feel like michael myers, the stalk is barely relevant and extremely easy to get and doesn't require a different playstyle than just walking people down from the moment the match starts when Myers has ALWAYS been a building force in the movies. I like Myers from Halloween, and because Myers from DBD isn't at all a convincing version of that Myers, I don't have any interesting in playing as him, and absolutely hate going against him.
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@Rickprado said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4110005#Comment_4110005
I get what you mean. I did an extrapolation to explain why balancing is important.
When you've said "room for some unbalance in DBD" i disagree. This game won't be perfectly balanced ever, but it doesn't mean the devs shouldn't aim to balance the experience as much as they can. Keeping broken stuff will just make everyone experience worse.
There is a current discourse on this community that we should have "imbalance in favor of fun" but i hardly believe that this is said considering only one side. For example, Old Eruption was fun to use as anti-gen since it held the match for longer but it was far too unhealthy to maintain, specially with some killers; Old Undying would made totem builds fun because it turned hexes into a lottery, but it made survivor experience horrible - and Jason wasn't a thing when Undying released; Made For This was far too free and made some specific killers power pointless (Knight, Doctor), etc etc.
All i'm saying is that balance is something done to preserve both sides fun and trying to keep imbalanced things in favor of fun is the wrong move, specially considering the assymetrical nature of this game.
But it isn't working. I could be outright rude about it and say "Behaviour has no idea how to balance anything" but I don't think thats very fair or true. I think the reality of it is actually that from the outset this game is not, and never was capable of being a streamlined competitive experience like LoL, DOTA, R6, Overwatch, ETC because its Marketed as Asymmetrical. It isn't only a 1v4, which is a unique and constant balance problem it is also a roster of killers who are not the same and don't measure up the same at all in most respects. so what you get is balance hell… If I try to play huntress and get Hawkins or RPD as the map when I am trying to learn the killer I will probably do worse, but if I get Coldwind or Ormond I will probably do better, Map VS Individual Killer VS Survivor success rates is already a balance nightmare, so are perks when you consider like Vigil right now people are arguing that it's too strong against Freddy and Clown because they rely on Hindered to gain distance.. Okay but on the flipside The Plague can totally ruin an entire build, items included for survivor players out of the gate with no warning… there's all of these moving parts that are impossible to balance because it isnt fair by design. the game was made with RNG heavily intertwined with it, RNG becomes much more of a balance issue when it isn't RNG that affects both sides equally.
That's why you can point to things that obviously changed for the better because it was so egregious that everyone knew it was bad for the game, but on less obvious issues, assuming they are even issues, there is going to be an overwhelmingly negative response because right now the gameplay loop is suffering badly as a rush to maintain a sort of competitive balance has outpaced what the game was designed for. people are forced from a formerly more wide open gameplay style that favored creativity into an attempted "Ranked" like gameplay where killers are running the best builds to find you as fast as possible and kill you immediately and lets face it, most survivor players are dying immediately unless you're in high MMR. It has by extension removed the feeling of DBD being a horror game, and most of the general ambience that originally came with a game like this and it has become no different than loading up the next match of Rainbow Six only without any real feeling of success whether you win or lose because there still is no established win or lose conditions and there is no ranked system and reasonably nothing to work forward to except scoring bloodpoints which becomes irrelevant to long time players.
This is why I believe Behaviour needs to just stop trying to make this game "always fair" 2v8 is NOT balanced, and most people do not care, they have fun playing killer with their friends or running around playing as survivor because the same old monotony of "Someones being tunneled, now we have to sit on gens and get them last minute and its going to be a slow 3v1 where the killer doesn't chase me in earnest he just defends a hook over and over until we all die or escape without much validating interaction" Why not make the killers more themselves as opposed to worrying about if they can play pallets to proper standards all of the time, that was my point about myers, I used to love him, I hate his rework and don't play him anymore. I would rather an F tier killer that feels like a faithful recreation of who they should be than an A tier killer thats optimized around kill rate.
I will also add that "balance" has accounted for the remaining prevalence of strategies (for both killers and survivors) that SUCK to deal with, and nobody likes them. Nobody likes tunneling, its immediately a game ruining experience so much so that people get cussed out and berated in post game over it almost every time, Nobody likes being slugged all game, if its going to be a twins game (rare as they are) and Its just going to be a game of get slugged and stood on while someone else gets slugged with viktor, nobody wants to play that game, people DC every time. and on the flipside, No Killer player wants to get hit by head on 300 times and flashbanged in the face over and over again while survivors neglect the primary objective to make the killers day worse. but these things aren't "too out of balance" to get behaviours notice so they continue to ruin games and I think a LOT of people are tired of it. -
@Malkhrim said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4110007#Comment_4110007
If you're ACTUALLY being tunneled, you'll get one use of the exhaustion perk off the hook and nothing else, because the killer won't drop you and you will not recover from exhaustion EVEN if you have Vigil, so the perk will do NOTHING for you there. If the killer is NOT tunneling you, however, then you will recover from exhausted more often and get far more value from the perk. Plus, other status effects it acts against are mostly useful against people who are NOT being tunneled:
Exposed: tunneled people often don't get time to heal, and perks that inflict it are far mostly used against people who where not on the hook recently or are not being tunneled: Friends Til the End, Make Your Choice and Ravenous trigger the exposed affect either when someone is hooked and unhooked. Starstruck triggers when the killer is carrying another survivor, Dragon's Grip triggers on a survivor doing a gen. Haunted Grounds is a 1-time use and it would be a waste to use on a recently hooked person that is either still injured or could have DS.
Broken: Most of the stuff that inflict this trigger it uppon being injured in chase. It won't make a difference right off the hook, and if you heal of tha hook and THEN suffer broken, the killer will not drop you if the intention is tunneling you.
Hemorrage and Mangled: the only situation when they do something against a tunneled survivor is when they still have time to heal before the killer returns to the hook. Hard tunnelers won't let that happen anyway, and with how long mangled effects last, you'll still have it off the hook anyway, even with Vigil.
Oblivious: only useful when you don't expect the killer to be near you, so not when you're being tunneled.
Blindness: rarely does anything anyway, perks and add-ons that inflict it are very underused. If you're in chase, it's only useful against specific perks.
Hindered: the one you mentioned. Only 4 perks with a very low usage rate inflict it. Add-ons that do it have a small effect and are usually not that popular either. So it's only CONSISTENTLY useful against Clown and Freddy, and the pick rates of both together don't even reach 3%.
So no, Vigil was never a viable option against tunneling. It's extremely rare for it to do anything against it and is far stronger and more valuable when you are NOT being tunneled.
This is just outright false. It is incredible that people say Tunneling is a Skill Issue and then type something like this. If you're a good survivor player you're walking as much as possible and trying to get your exhaustion perk back online, Vigil helps you do that. you're just saying that Tunneling has reached such an oppressive state that no matter what you won't get Vigil value because you're going down before that which isn't a good argument it just points towards a glaring problem. IF the killer tunneling you is causing effects like hindered, you will recover from it faster… and the point I am making is that its an Adjacent perk to Anti Tunnel Builds, not something run in pure Anti Tunnel Builds.
The Choices for Build Creativity are just getting (and have been getting) narrowed for no reason at all, what if A survivor doesn't want to run a full anti tunnel build but wants a good generalized perk to help a little bit in the case that they do but will also give value if they don't? Vigil was one of those options. Survivors ONLY have the benefit of perks to diversify playstyle as half of their six item choices are nearly useless when compared to Toolbox, Medkit, or Flashlight and there are options for killers already to totally nullify or significantly hinder these items. why are we allowing killers multiple layers of freedom of creativity in builds but narrowing the survivors only avenue of build changes? It is a double standard. -
@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4110018#Comment_4110018
Obviously, perks should impact the game. But a single perk should not completely counter an entire killer, that is my point. Survivors have 16 perks to work with between them, and the killer only 4. By definition, the killer perks should be stronger.
Then by this logic a single killer shouldn't counter an entire perk and item build, but they do. The Killer IS Stronger, and there are several killers who could be tweaked and made better for sure but that should lie in their power and not the balance of perks. Perks for the killer are foundationally different than perks for the survivor.
Survivors are all reskins of the same individual with the same abilities only differentiated by perks. Killers are entirely their own and so killer perks should be arranged to compliment an already existing power, not make or break the game. on the other hand Survivors without perks are confined to items to direct different gameplay styles and there are killers and killer builds that entirely curb stomp entire survivor builds before they even load into a match.
The Double Standard I am pointing out is that it is okay for there to be perks that are better against some killers than others, just like there are some killers that counter altruism and have better chase potential than others. the Nerf on Vigil is a standout problem because it is setting a bad precedent going forward where perks must be nerfed based on how they effect all killers across the board and that is a literally impossible standard when killers arent even balanced amongst themselves. its impossible to balance DBD to this extent and a waste of time, the only result that (already has) and will come from this is people generally being more upset about the state of the game. Vigil is Worse but a Good Nurse can still throttle a group of decent survivors, Sprint Burst is worse but Blight can still get 1000+ winstreaks, Deadhard is worse but Its still possible to tunnel someone at 5 gens and it not be considered griefing (not to open the debate over tunneling here, just to mention people hate it) -
@Mrbecke said:
Hey everyone,
We all know the pain. Someone wants to "Go Next" (give up immediately), the automated system acts up, bans innocent players who were just getting tunnel-visioned, and everyone is mad.
Why? Because:
- Pure AI is dumb: A strict algorithm has zero context. It can't tell if someone is intentionally trolling or just getting brutally farmed by a sweaty killer.
- Pure Team-Votes are chaotic: If your team is angry right during the match, emotions run high and people abuse the system out of pure salt.
So, how about we stop relying on extremes and use a Hybrid-System (kind of like CS:GO's old Overwatch)?
Here is the dummy-proof breakdown:
- The AI Flags It (The Detective): An automated filter spots suspicious "giving up" behavior after a match ends. It doesn't ban anyone by itself—it just marks the clip. No false bans on the spot!
- Cooling Off (The Time Delay): The flagged short replay is reviewed after the match. By then, everyone has cooled down emotionally.
- The Neutral Jury (The Overwatch): Instead of salty teammates, neutral players (or a rotating pool of players) review the short clip out-of-match to see if it was actual intentional trolling or just bad luck.
- The Veto Rule: If there's any doubt, or if someone votes "Not Guilty", the player walks free. No unfair penalties.
TL;DR: AI finds the needle in the haystack, neutral human review checks it with a cool head after the match. No more broken auto-bans, no more emotional team reports.
What do you think? Let’s hear your thoughts (even if you think it's garbage)!
I kind of prefer the Behavior Score implemented into Dota that effectively lets every player in the match have a say on whether or not someone was intentionally doing something toxic or abusing a mechanic from the outset and after a moderator views it, the system lowers their overall behavior score (which is between 0 and 12,000 and I have no idea why its that number specifically but it is) and informs both the person being reported and the people who reported them that an action was taken and by extension that affects the type of games they are going to get into. if you want to consistently grief or abuse things then you can find yourself in a lobby full of people who do the same, and only over time does the score go back up.
(This provides the reporting players with positive feedback that their effort actually meant something rather than leaving them in the dark and also properly informs whoever was reported what they were doing wrong and then they know not to do it if they want to be in respectful lobbies)
But I think part of the DBD dilemma right now is that people are at odds on what is even reportable or considered griefing. -
I will also add the following because it is probably the most relevant problem in the game right now: I have played between 15 and 20 games after 2v8 left and its immediately an oppressive difference. a hard tunnel in about 80% of these games, and this is the result of exactly the problem that this game has, everyone is too worried about whether this or that perk is perfectly tuned (they aren't, and will likely never be) while the gameplay loop is skull crushingly bad. most of the tunneling is coming from P100 Killers too, P100 Myers Tunnel, Ace quits but doesn't DC, Just stands there at basement hook, game is ruined. Jasons face camping on purpose with power and making sure to hit a survivor who goes to unhook the person being tunneled and then immediately going for the tunneled person again, Legion defending the hook from the beginning and just knife spamming with power anyone who goes for an unhook. It's like incredible almost how oppressive and negative the feeling is after playing into this over and over and over and all we get back is "working as intended" P100 Artist earlier as well, Hard Tunnel from the outset, using birds as a way to hit people immediately after a rescue and then running down the person they want to tunnel.
Genuinely how is this good for the game? Nobody wants this experience (except the ones doing it to other people), at this point Behaviour needs to add a Forfeit function (which just about every competitive game has by the way) and I think the Forfeit numbers against a hard tunneling killer would Immediately speak for themselves.
Why would the following be appealing to somebody new coming to the game: Queue for a game, mess up a skill check or walk into the killer by accident, get caught immediately due to lacking game knowledge, get hooked, get taken off of hook immediately, killer returns (Not your fault your teammate came to divebomb the hook), you get chased again, hooked again immediately, happens again… okay maybe thats just a bad game, load into another one… happens again (everyone says it's your fault for being the weakest link), decide to stick it out anyway, learn a little more about the game, teammates are crouch walking around the map, you get put on hook, nobody is doing gens, people are hiding in lockers and crouch walking at 5-4 gens, why? they don't want to hang on a hook only to get taken off and run down in 15 seconds and go right back onto the same hook. "Skill Issue" (apparently) and its just over and over and over again. even if you play at mid level MMR after playing for a long time but preferring fun builds as opposed to what's strongest its relentless, just denial of peoples ability to play the game they want to play… -
@SkeletalElite said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109815#Comment_4109815
A seperate ranked queue is needed because of mindset not mmr. Many casual players who are queuing do not go into the match giving it their all. This is what is refreshing about cross off on steam and why there should be a separate queue
This exactly, The two camps will never be reconciled at this point, give tryhards something to actually try hard at and let casual people play casual. This has been the best immediate way to solve this issue for years.
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Just pray that they don't do to him what they did to myers, better a lower tier character that at least somewhat resembles their source material than a grossly under-effort dash merchant killer with exposed
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4110015#Comment_4110015
But that's the point, vigil in its current state protects you from almost every status effect so you'll almost always get value out of it. Its just especially bad against a handful of killers.
Okay but there are other things you could run if you want protection from other things too. Perks SHOULD have an impact on the game, that's a good thing. Exhaustion Perks also always give value, the baseline should be that every perk always provides value, not that there's a chance it provides value. what needs to happen is perks that do not always provide some level of value need to be reevaluated and if there's not enough reasonable function to distribute between the perks then its time to add to the core gameplay loop. and the Idea isn't just for survivors either, its also for killers, if I run a perk I want it to give value, not possibly give value. there will be more build variation when there is more viable perks to pick.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109966#Comment_4109966
Let's look at old vigil for a second. 66% reduction in duration of a debuff right?
Freddy slow lasts normally 4.5 seconds and is a 12% hinder. That means for 4.5 seconds, the survivor is moving at 3.52 m/s. This means that landing your power as freddy gets you 2.16 meters of distance.
Now factor in vigil which reduces that down to 1.53 seconds. Now instead of gaining 2.16 meters of distance you gain 0.734 meters of distance.
That is a massive decrease in the effectiveness of the power for a single perk slot out of 16.
Okay, and this would be a problem if people were making builds with full knowledge of what they were facing but they aren't and they don't. Even in a SWF Scenario either all four people are using it or you are prioritizing the wrong person. at the end of the day the justification for gutting this perk has come down to "But what if theres a clown or freddy" what if there is? what if I run four healing perks into the Plague? then I went into a game perkless. what if I went into a game with a flashlight and the killer has lightborn or Two Can Play? What if I Drop a Pallet and spirit fury results im ny death? then oh well.
DBD has an anonymous lobby system, if anything it favors a killer more because they can see what items survivors are bringing, this means there are going to be cases of inopportune things. What if I am playing killer and I get a map that is stronger for survivor or Vice Versa? there are situations in this game that are set up for an automatic counter, Vigil is one of an insanely high amount of these things and its a slippery slope to start removing them because it is better against certain characters than others. the game is ultimately user influenced RNG, there is a heavy element of Luck of the Draw. -
@Wiccamanplays said:
Circle Of Healing was completely busted and would still be a good pick if other healing perks weren't disgustingly strong right now.
Sprint Burst and Dead Hard are still two of the best perks in the game by any definition.
Vigil makes splaying M1 Killers insufferable and particularly hurts weaker Killers more than strong ones because of their reliance on additional effects like Exposed or Hindered.
You could also make this meme with DMS, Pain Res, Eruption, Grim Embrace, Thrill etc. (because those perks were unhealthy and are now less unhealthy because they were nerfed or reworked)
"A Reduced Version of Sprint Burst and Dead Hard are still two of the best perks in the game" is not a good thing. If these notable perks that feel necessary to run in some form to survive are being nerfed and STILL are being used for lack of a better option the problem is with the vast amount of perks that don't see use here. Sprint Burst has significantly lost its value regardless purely because of the much higher chance of a high mobility killer, Dead hard is extremely easy to wait out once you know somebody has it, but even still these are being used because theres so many perks that do not provide nearly as much value. you could have a great totem build and face 5 killers in a row who don't have a single hex totem but Sprint Burst is relevant always, DH is relevant always. they are being used constantly because its guaranteed value over hoped value.
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@Malkhrim said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109805#Comment_4109805
These perks were not anti-tunneling measures. Most of them are stronger when you are not tunneled.
Hell, Dead Hard BECAME an anti-tunelling perk after it was nerfed, as it's just not usable in early game now.Stop appealing to tunneling when talking about unrelated stuff.
yeah so If you don't think that a perk made to decrease exhaustion time has any notable effect in surviving being tunneled that's kind of sad. I can't imagine how a perk to reduce the cooldowns of distance making perks as well as ease the effects of things like hindered might help someone out who is being tunneled. the point I made without voicing it verbatim is that there goes yet another alternative option to the same perks we already see over and over again.
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@Rickprado said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109837#Comment_4109837
Completely agree.
I really wonder if people have dealt with Broken stuff when they say that "balance makes the game boring". Have anyone faced a Old Starstruck Nurse with aura reveal? Or a Spirit with Mother's Daughter Ring + Amulet? Old Medkits + Botany? Old Dead Hard? Prime Ghoul?
Most of the things that are not in the game anymore are gone for a reason. If they didn't balance the game then we really would see what "unfun" is.I think you misunderstood the point I am making, I am not implying that there should never be a balance or a change made to the game. I am saying that It has reached a stale point of people complaining about one change or another regardless of what the devs push forward and I would like to see the Devs be decisive and vocal about what kind of game DBD will be going forward. I believe there's plenty of room for some unbalance in DBD because it just isn't setup to be hardcore competitive, but that doesn't mean that there should just be a whole bunch of nonsense either. It's just that it feels like we get very little in the way of actual gameplay expansion and that plays into the general feeling of frustration a lot of people (myself included) are voicing.
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@Dokta_Carter said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109894#Comment_4109894
Did I say small? I stated one thing.
Putting words in my mouth is a sign you don't want a debate.
All I did was point out that you intentionally made blinding out to be a less impactful part of the game than hindered.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109816#Comment_4109816
There's a difference between bringing perks vs the literal killer power. A perk should never totally counter a killer power, killer powers can counter perks though because you as a survivor still get to play the game.
Imagine for example there was a perk that just made you immune to chainsaws. That would be silly right? Because you would just dominate billy and leatherface with it, but it would be completely useless against every other killer.
that's not at all on the same scale as what Vigil does and you know that it isn't. People running Vigil still are effected by the clown, just a little less so, its not "infinite clown protection". same goes for freddy. there are TONS of killer perks that from the outset greatly inconvenience survivors, if we are removing vigil then lets start removing those ones too. Lightborn removes a valuable part of survivor gameplay, take it out. Corrupt Intervention Needlessly Stalls the beginning of the game, take it out. Thanataphobia is causing other players to be slower because of the mistakes of someone else who couldn't loop well enough, take it out.
I am not actually trying to say that these perks should be taken out of the game though, what I am doing is pointing out that if perks ARENT effecting the other team then why are we running them? you run corrupt and pain res because you WANT survivors gen progress to slow down, so survivors run Vigil because they WANT the killers debuffs to last for less time, that's how PvP scenarios are supposed to work. You can absolutely still play the game as any killer who has any power that causes any debuff, you can play it perfectly fine. you are still faster than survivors, you are still able to LEAVE CHASE and go chase someone without Vigil if you find yourself struggling with it. this is not a viable case to remove a perk with a unique functionality. -
@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109894#Comment_4109894
Blastmine only removes the bliding effect but the stun is still there when killer has lightborn so unless you screw up moving in his FOV while he is stunned the blastmine doesnt get countered by lightborn, remember it.
Survivor main counterplay is to dont get caught easily and do their objective (the gens, getleman), blinding sabboing and pallet stunning just saving in general is option how to fight back but not main counterplay. Thats like saying killers main objective is to hit and run or tunnel (because it realy isnt these are just options same as saves).
LIghtborn at this state doesnt need nerf just one thing needs to happen so you dont get it so often and thats so killers cant see survivors equiped items in lobby.
If that happens then many lightborn users will stop existing because I believe like half of them just use it becuase they see flashlight or few of them in lobby or full lobby so they equip lightborn as answer (counter).
In majority of matches lightborn is waste of perk slot that doesnt do anything and many pick it just because of what they see in their lobby if they couldnt see survivors items they wouldnt equip lightborn, then there are lightborn ejoyers that wont put it away becaue they either love it or have pts from their time as beginers because they got bullyed by flashlights but these are very small minority.
To be clear, I am not making a case that Lightborn needs to, or should go away. I am saying it is a double standard, because it affects a relatively large portion of Survivor gameplay including perks which they would have no way of knowing were a waste of a perk slot before a match. Vigil and Lightborn are effectively the same in this regard. I think it's ridiculous to Gut Vigil at all, Its just as absurd as gutting Lightborn. because A perk SHOULD have an impact, that's a large problem with survivor perks. Most of the perks that do have impact are rendered effectively dead because all of the sudden "thats OP".
I get the notion that Survivor Perks are supposed to be weaker than killer perks for the obvious reason that theres a 4v1 scenario and if you give survivors too much you defeated the point of them having the short end of the stick from the outset which is… kind of the point of the game, that a killer should be threatening. However, if Behaviour want's to rectify the disparity of perks one major step that hasn't been addressed in earnest is that the game outright encourages people to play for themselves. A lot of survivors definitely go out of their way to help teammates, and a lot of them don't either. but the DBD "Goals" are "Escape at all costs" or "Kill at All Costs" which I think are poorly forced narratives that encourage the game to be too linear anyway but that's a different topic; The point is that Survivors need perks that are impactful because in the current state of the game they cannot Trust their teammates to be playing as a team.
That leaves one problem wide open: SWFs, anything you can buff for Solo Queue is by extension abused by SWFs. IMO this is more of a case of making too many perks the exception rather than the rule. what I mean is that "useful" perks are in such short supply that its like oh boy here comes the full bully build SWF team and they're going to be running XYZ but XYZ are three repeatedly occuring perks largely because most other viable perks get gutted one by one and unviable perks are never really made viable again. that problem extends to killer also btw. there's a reason we see so many of the same perks for killer, it is because there's an excess of horribly unusable perks.
TLDR: What I am saying is perks SHOULD influence the game in noticeable ways, this is exactly why antitunnel and exhaustion perks are always at the front as are Slowdown Perks like Pain Res… people aren't provided much freedom of expression in builds because there's not very many viable builds at the top of gameplay. If I am playing killer and I put on perks, I want them to actually visibly do something, If I am playing survivor and I put on perks, I want them to actually visibly do something. there are far too many perks that "may or may not" effect the game. thats bad design, most every perk should be meaningful rather than most every perk being niche and a select set being meaningful and the design flaw I am trying to highlight is that they should not be taking away perks that make a difference because other ones do not, they should be figuring out how to make the other perks make more of a difference. -
@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109776#Comment_4109776
You’re the killer. You control the beam of light. You control how, when and where it’s fired.
I still don’t see how this makes her “harder,” just more honest. Survivors already had a ton of counterplay at range – if you’re aiming long‑distance beams you’re committing to a prediction shot on someone who can juke or LOS break. Making the beam more visible and adding a UI cue doesn’t change the fact that you, as Judgment, still decide where and when to fire; it just means survivors actually get clear feedback instead of getting deleted by something they could barely read.
Meanwhile you’re getting Killer Instinct on downs and near‑misses, which is huge for tracking and follow‑up pressure in chase. That’s a real buff to consistency, especially when people try to play super safe around corners and walls. Jason lost specific power interactions outright, but Judgment is still doing the exact same thing she was doing before, just with clearer info on both sides.
If the “main appeal” of a killer is that the other side can’t tell what’s happening, that’s not really healthy design.kind of crazy that this has downvotes… people will see "its bad game design to have people getting injured with almost no warning from almost anywhere on the map" and dislike it because in their mind it's a great idea…
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@Dokta_Carter said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109760#Comment_4109760
Loghtborn affected one thing, Blinding.
Vigil affected more then one thing, affecting killers, and powers.
A survivor does not need to flashlight save or flashbang someone so it overall has less affects on survivor in comparison.
this is like the main function of survivor counterplay by the way, and it voids perks like Blast Mine and Flashbang as well. insane raging double standard to act like preventing flashlights or any form of blinding is "just one small thing" while taking a bit of the edge off of lingering negative effects is an insanely game changing and in a tier of its own problem wise. Survivors don't get to see what killer they are facing before a match, killers do. they can throw on lightborn when they see flashlights and it throws peoples whole gameplan out the window, survivors can run vigil and guess… it might not even affect the killer they are facing at all, lightborn affects 100% of survivors all of the time.
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@Mikeadatrix said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109832#Comment_4109832
Nerfing three mediocre killers isn't going to make the game better, my dude, Vigil does nothing against a good Nurse, Blight, Ghoul, Henry, etc etc etc, however the B and C tiers that it directly affects definitely needed the nerf, mhm /s
DBD is overall lacking a variety of perks for survivors that really have any punch towards a killer in the way of "Fighting Back" there's something to appreciate about a perk that grants a slight edge against slowing effects. it does influence some killers more than others obviously, that's just the nature of a game where you cannot make a build for what you'll face before you face it. you could bring a build entirely for healing and face a plague, or you could play hag with a hex build and someone has an anti totem build, that's just the RNG. "this thing is affecting me negatively" is what DBD is built on, getting stabbed with a knife affects survivors negatively, getting flashlight saved affects killers negatively, that's what perks are supposed to do, unfortunately there's an excess of perks for both killer and survivor that are not very good at doing that, that doesn't mean we remove the ones or gut the ones that do.
I'll say this for the second time on this thread but Survivors only have one avenue of gameplay change outside of perks and its six items, half of which don't have much value at all, one of which can be totally nullified by a single perk that's run quite often. and i'm not here to complain about lightborn, but its undeniably a double standard to give killers perks that shut off entire survivor builds from before the game even starts and then remove a perk that helps survivors recover from status effects a little bit faster. there are builds for certain killers that are so insanely tedious to face that its borderline a BM to even use them like Skillcheck Dr and Full Slowdown Legion. Pain Res is in play in like every other game but those aren't overtuned? again, double standard. its significantly more impactful to do an across the board nerf for survivor perks than it is for killer perks because survivors don't have the benefit of a power. -
@Rickprado said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109832#Comment_4109832
For TCM and Evil Dead, family/demon queues were instant and survivor queues got so long for TCM that it was almost impossible to play a match without waiting for almost 30min to complete a lobby. VHS had a worse issue with "survivor"/teen queues reaching a whole hour. If something these game teach is that leaving one side much stronger than other will just push players to the strongest side or even push them away from the game.
Balancing is a way to keep the meta fresh and the experience less repetitive. If changes weren't made, we would be still going against mother's Daughter Spirit every match, as it was in late 2020.
a large part of this is limited IP though, as I mentioned these games were limited to one or a few killers whereas DBD has tons to choose from. and to be perfectly clear I am not trying to say Balance is irrelevant to a game at all I am just saying A lot of the conversation I see on here is people trying to perfectly balance a game which wasn't setup to be perfectly balanced. it just isn't possible. its insane to think you will get the game in a state where all killers have equal opportunity and chance, etc and even if it was possible it feels like nerfing a perk across the board is never a way to achieve this outcome. if a specific few killers are struggling with something then why not initiate a sort of balance directly relating to when that killer faces a perk rather than the perk as a whole. (the only negative I would see coming from this is that people might end up complaining that the game is too convoluted and its hard to remember exactly what does what but that is already a problem in this game and has been for some time.
I am just stating that I would imagine emphasizing an originality to each killer and survivor over repeatedly arguing over perk balance would serve the game better. I don't know how that sentiment isn't unanimous actually… A lot of the IPs in DBD are beloved characters from classic slashers and atp characters that are unlicensed have a solid following so why not make the game bend more rather than being so rigid?
You have to remember that survivors are literally just reskins and there's no advantage at all to playing one survivor over another besides cosmetically, so nerfing a rather mainstay perk is insanely impactful to them, way more impactful than changing a single killer perk, because killers also have uniqueness in the way of their powers and addons, survivors do not. there aren't A tier and F tier survivors unless you rank them by the perks that came to the game alongside them and so again, changes to the few high impact perks survivors do have as mainstays effects everyone in a larger way than changing a killer does.
Lastly, the Meta isn't fresh, its been the same for a long time, and its getting pushed to be even narrower with the gutting of perks that make other playstyles viable… its narrowing the meta instead of changing it, if they want to change it they would have to revamp quite a few perks that are niche at best and horrible at worst. -
@Blazin973 said:
Respectfully, I didn’t ask for anyone to redesign my suggestion 😭 If you don’t like the idea, that’s fine, but you don’t need to replace it with your own. Move along.
I mean I partially agree with you regarding your change suggestions but you are on a forum, If you don't want feedback to the contrary or people to bounce off of your idea update your discord status or something I guess… Forums are made for conversation.
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@Domicci said:
Who's fun do we base the game off? Bully squads? New survivors? Comp killer? Low teir killer? Everyone's fun is different and the best way to make the game fun for the most people is to balance the game. Its not fun to play dbd when you like ghost face because hes just so weak your always stressed and its not fun for survivors seeing the same 5 good killers over and over again if we can balance the game the ghost face player can have more fun and thw survivors can see more killers to have more fun. You have to remember there is another person on the other side and it seems both sides seem to forget that.
Focusing on the glaring problems with core gameplay which benefit everyone is a better strategy for this game than trying to consistently please vocal minorities and then repeating the process over and over again of questionable change directly into outrage. Killer gameplay is stale, survivor gameplay is stale. the game is stale. I purposefully left this post outside of the survivor sided/killer sided various arguments because I am trying to drive the point of there's no reason for DBD to be so uniform for a game that is marketed from the outset as non-uniform. I explicitly listed Myers, however, because I used to love old myers, I do not care if he was objectively weaker than high tier killers at all, because I think capturing who a killer (or survivor is for that matter) in this game is far more important than whether they can get kills efficient enough in a linear sense.
The game isn't big enough for a "win" based on individual basis. what I mean by that is basically if you play a game like Sea of Thieves its this huge open world game where PvP is an option both competitively or casually, so is just hanging around with people or sailing and fishing, amongst endless other things, that is a game engineered for people to "decide what winning is" DBD claims this but doesn't have this. you win when you escape for survivor and you win when you kill the survivors as the killer, that is what "Win/Lose" has come to mean for the community. so my problem is that Behaviour has decided to fence ride instead of choosing what this game is supposed to be. If the game is supposed to be competitive then where is proper matchmaking and rankings and literally anything else that comes with a competitive game? if the game is supposed to be casual why are they endorsing strategies that make casual players who play for fun and not to win every time angry.
I would personally rather play and lose a match as survivor where I end up dying but nobody is tunneled or slugged than I would play the same game but people are tunneled out and slugged, I would personally rather play a killer game where I play more closely to how that killer should play based on who they are drawn from and lose rather than picking the best perks and playing obnoxiously so that I get a 4k. but that's just me. the problem with fence sitting is that Behaviour is trying to capture these two playergroups both into one which is by extension causing an extremely toxic environment. Tunneling and Slugging ARE bad for the game if the game is to be played with the sense of a continually flowing slasher experience rather than a competitive match where stomping your opponent(s) into the floor is more preferable than a game that sees both parties enjoy it is what Behaviour is trying to achieve (equally true of bully squads, these players from the outset are of the mind to abuse the killer rather than play the game in a way that both sides can engage in and have fun). but if the game IS supposed to be played purely competitively and it really is all about stomping whoever you're against when possible then Behaviour needs to go all in on that and make the experience reflect that. there are currently no ranks, there is no valid MMR, solo queue is a nightmare, there isn't even proper communication (although I know a chatwheel is coming soon)
So to determine "Who's Fun" they are even trying to appeal to, Behaviour needs to take clear steps to move the game in that direction because all I see is that comp killers are pretty unhappy across the board, comp survivors are pretty mad across the board, and nobody anywhere or in between is particularly happy with almost any change that is made. I play a lot of DOTA 2 and when patches come out people are obviously dissapointed when their favorite characters are nerfed but its nothing like DBD, people act like they are entitled to a power trip and that goes for both survivors and killers. that's the core of the reason behind this post, I loathe it, I want the game to be less toxic and more enjoyable for everyone and it feels like the first step to that is admitting it really does need a direction or its just going to keep bleeding players, and as new players come in retention will be lower because at this point the learning curve is incredibly high for a game like this and you are severely punished whether playing survivor or killer by a wacky MMR putting you against people who are just better and will stomp you. -
@Mikeadatrix said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109816#Comment_4109816
I get the comparison but when was the last time you saw a Plague? She's the 12th least picked Killer according to Night Light and aside from seeing her in the Banquet event to counter instaheals, she's by no means a popular pick. I get that running a full build and seeing her sucks, but so does running Lightborn against a team that last minute switches off of their Flashlights to Toolboxes. There's BS on both sides, without a shadow of a doubt, but I refuse to step down from the argument that Vigil was incredibly free and had so much fat on it for the sake of it.
Am I wrong to say that when you came across a Freddy or Clown or even a Nemesis/Unknown while running Vigil that you got excited because you knew that one perk effectively counters the entirety of their hindered?
then the Nemesis/Clown/Freddy can experience the same thing survivors experience on a regular basis in picking perks and having them become relatively useless. This game is impossible to balance, and so much so that when something gets nerfed, whether for killer or survivor, it just makes the game state worse for the affected party without getting better. DBD is not a MOBA and there's no reason stuff should be balanced to perfection. enforcing such a focus on these things are ruining the game state for everyone. how about put the effort into actually shaking the core gameplay up, its been stale for years… I don't want another survivor reskin or the next antiloop killer I want to see the game move closer towards the "Survive a slasher" setting that it takes place in. People had loads of fun with F13 and it wasn't balanced, people had loads of fun with TCM and Evil Dead too, they were confined in a way DBD isn't by professing a single genre. there is so much that they could do with DBD to vitalize the core idea rather than cause problems by altering perks that shouldn't be the central part of gameplay anyway. 2v8 is the most fun a lot of people have in DBD anymore and thats because the game is unserious again and not oppressively competitive for people who never asked for that.
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@Mikeadatrix said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/471331/knock-knock
Eh, I don't think a perk should impact multiple killers' base power effect. Vigil was incredibly free and basically gave you a disgusting edge in the Trial against Clown and Freddy specifically.
then why should multiple killers have powers that not only impact but totally remove survivor counterplay? The Plague from the outset thrashes every altruism build and provides a mechanic that BM's the survivor team as counterplay. but yeah man its a travesty when a survivor perk helps get over hindered a little quicker. one by one viable survivor builds to actually outlast the unbearably common killer meta of forcing a tunnel early so its a 3v1 so that its literally just the same few build options on people over and over again. if the justification for killer powers that cause unwanted effects to survivors is that "they are supposed to kill them" then its the same for survivors who are "supposed to survive". how is it a bad design to give survivors a tool to survive… I don't even use a flashlight but Survivors are given a total of Six Item options, half of which are horrible anyway, and Lightborn totally removes the functionality of one of those items? Double Standard. I dont even care that lightborn exists personally, but if we're removing mechanics because they negatively impact the other side then we better start removing them from killers too.
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A 3k is a game win, survivor finding the hatch is not a big deal, killer's slugging someone on the floor and running around looking for the last survivor who is usually hiding somewhere is one of the worst types of stalling in the game to experience IMO. the game is already over. someone getting hatch is not a big deal, I am in favor of unbreakable existing for survivors once there's only two survivors left and both have been slugged. there has to be a start to addressing parts of the game that are inherently bad. there's no reason that a game should end by someone having to lay on the ground for 2+ minutes while a killer aimlessly looks around for the other survivor.
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"If you can't escape tunneling its a skill issue"
Yeah or they're just gutting viable options to play against it one by one… -
I Hope so… I don't play killer as much as I play survivor but I tend to favor the killers I do play for fun rather than for how high they are on the skill tree. Old Myers was if nothing else, himself. new myers is soulless, has nothing to do with the design of the character except for a myers skin on a dash and slash merchant, and unrewarding.
It doesn't even look like he was given a proper animation to dash its just here comes the base kit Coup De Grace man.
Old Myers was one of my favorite parts of this game, win or lose. -
@HexSlugged said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109638#Comment_4109638
well as ive stated and stand by, it doesnt happen anywhere near as much as people say it does. i think people are all parroting each other and inventing an exaggerative reality amongst themselves thats not actual reality.
Tunneling and slugging has been around for the entire games existence and used to be even worse. The game is not dead or dying or driving players away in droves. this doom speak is nothing new and thats the same claim thats been made for a decade. idk why you claim something that is not true especially if behavior is saying the game is doing better now than it ever has. and thast with all these "driving players away"
"Who wants to invest time in learning counterplay and looping when a killer can just pick the weakest or nearest and get rid of them without consequence?" If there is no consequence to the killer for doing this then that is the failure of the team.
You can have the opinion that i dont play enough survivor because i dont play along with the BS that fills the forum and community, but i know better. played surv since launch. Not sure what my actual split is since 2020 when they started tracking as i cant log in to the stat page for some reason but overall im 100% sure ive played significantly more surv and i play them currently about 50/50 nowadays and use pwyw extensively
I have played about 10 survivor games since 2v8 ended against a variety of killers and in EIGHT out of those 10 games there has been tunneling from the outset. some killers are forced into a design that encourages it too, which is bad for the game. The Pig is a weak killer who is encouraged to harass and tunnel a person because her head trap easily becomes a guaranteed kill if she just abuses "chase" mechanics. just because she's not "strong" doesn't validate diminishing someones gameplay experience to running around starting a mindless trap removal interaction until the pig interrupts you and resets the progress and then chases you for a bit, rinse and repeat until you die. horrible gameplay design, not even defensible. Myers is encouraged to tunnel because of two reasons: Solo Queue players favor altruism over objective, they see a teammate hooked and run to it, and myers gets faster stalk with more in view, so he just returns immediately once someone comes to the hook and downs people in quick succession. horrible indefensible gameplay design. the fact that game design is endorsing it is an actual problem whether you will admit it or not. and neither Myers or the Pig are even examples of what a strongest killer can do.
you can reasonably loop both myers and the pig for a while, that doesn't make the design something people want to experience. if Pig can get away with it, the Nurse and Blight can do it tenfold, and they do. Artist Players tend to not only tunnel but use their power to get free hits on people unhooking which is a mandatory mechanic, if you don't unhook your teammate they die. if you do, you get hit by artist birds and are injured while the artist runs your teammate down and throws them right back on hook. there's literally endless examples and ignoring them as if these problems don't really exist is just going to cause a continued bleed of survivors.
Tunneling is the number one most complained about issue and has been for all the years I have played this game. people aren't just making it up out of frustration. -
@Anniehere said:
Perks are what cause frustration the most, in my opinion. They're the main cause of my most miserable games anyway.
that appears to be because rather than actually fixing negative game design choices like Hard Tunneling STILL being viable after all this time as well as camping slugged survivors, etc they are "Fixing" things with perks that don't actually fix them they just empower the problem in the long run
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I think its a fine change, game is basically over at that point, I Just abandon as survivor to move on to the next game idk why a killer couldn't do the same
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It is incredible to me that while there's a just about unanimous outcry from survivor players about how prevalent bad design is in this game The Devs ignore it and Killer mains pretend like its not bad. like Killer times are long because the game isn't fun at all for survivor anymore. people love 2v8 because it brings back just having fun games where its no big deal if you lose, ofc some annoying things happen but compared to 1v4 where its just the same horrible feeling design mechanics one after another over and over again, 2v8 is just about running from a killer again. Survivors are Tunneled, Camped, Slugged, BM'd as part of "Gameplay" and also deal with maybe the worst solo Queue of any game of alltime and are told its a skill issue when they don't like those things.
Its like killers are more often designed to be outright tedious and annoying rather than a challenge as well. I immediately do not want to face a plague, or a legion, or a knight, or a Pig, regardless of their relative tier as a killer because their powers arent fun to have to play through, theres no part of it where its like yeah I loved mending every minute on repeat for the entire game against a full gen slowdown build legion, i can't wait to do that again, or I really love being thrown up on by plague, please introduce more killers that nullify altruism almost entirely and cause your solo queue team to run around aimlessly as most injured solo queue survivors do… and the devs don't even regard these things as problems, but they are.
Thats not even considering a staggering variety difference, each killer is something different, albeit mostly shoved into a hollow imagination of what they could be because even though DBD is Asymmetrical, the killers are linear and forced around a linear playstyle, but they ARE a variety from eachother. if I get tired of one killer I can play another, if I get tired of one survivor I can switch my skin… I can change my perk build… I can change what Item I am bringing… there's no intuitive variety, just horribly balanced perks that enforce an already stale and bad meta.
Also, there needs to be 4x the amount of people queued for Survivor (obviously) and the game is losing survivor players, many of them who do play just get angry and quit early in matches or run around doing dull totems or try way too hard to dive bomb a hook and ruin a game…
until behaviour takes any real step beyond "enjoy the next skin with two bizarre niche perks and one okay one that you have to pay $5 for" killer Queue is going to be longer. -
I agree. Here's my take on it: The game has become far too linear for a Asymmetrical game. Behaviour never actually went through the steps to make this a competitive game, the same "rank" system has existed forever which means nothing and the MMR is insanely out of wack, and all of the content creators for the game treat it like it's supposed to be played fully competitively anyway. the most "optimal" playstyles to "win" aren't even what get the most bloodpoints which is… the only real wincondition in the game still after all of these years. you pip up by playing diversely but the game is pushed towards not playing diversely at all.
Survivor doesn't feel particularly rewarding at this point in the game and there are multiple killers that are just not fun to play against and people complain about them all the time. there's no reason at all why from the outset a killers power should feel tedious and bad to deal with, and it isn't a matter of "I dont like losing" its just literally nobody wants to deal with Legions constant mending even if legion isnt very good, very few people want to deal with Plague at all, she totally invalidates builds and most altruism from the outset and provides a mechanic that when interacted with wrong BMs the entire team, nobody wants to hold W away from the most interactive part of the game currently, the loops but are forced to because antiloop is the direction Behaviour has taken newer killers rather than making them uniquely their own.
Why is this game Asymmetrical but played as if all things have to fit in this narrow little aisle of gameplay? there is so much to these Killers, especially licensed ones, that they could implement to make the games diverse and interesting but over hours of playing it has just become oh man here comes the knife guy and he's gonna probably dash at me I guess… there's no Nuance even, its like Kaneki: Jump, Lock on Deep Wound Hit, Jump again, Down. that doesn't make him feel uniquely himself. The Knight: Place a little guy that chases people around and then walk at them and hit them with a sword… okay I guess… At least the Trapper, who has been in the game since launch has his own goal and strategy that is uniquely his own and its like he's been left by the wayside…
Maybe I am tripping but I see a game that could be awesome if it wasn't half forced to be some kind of Competitive Win/Loss PVP experience and also half forced to be a game that encourages random nonsense… maybe "Lacks Proper Direction" is the best way to say it… -
@HexSlugged said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4108950#Comment_4108950
not sure where bullying applies with the example you provided. there are a couple free second chance perks everyone has access to and large chunk of the playerbase have lots of other ones. not the killers fault you didnt equip a perk for counterplay. if your running into this that much then why wouldnt you have the counterplay perks equipped?
thgat does sound like a skill issue if your not adapting. but it does make sense to not have second chance perks equipped when the reality is your not hard tunneled as often as claimed.
and i dont see survivors not doing gens when the killer is way behind. I assume its the same for you.
you join an elimination game in a match that lasts 10 minutes or less typically then i dont see the point of whining because you or your team couldnt avoid or punish a tunnel and you got eliminated.
and yes in an elimination game, the more people that are eliminated the stronger the other team becomes. you are correct about that. therefore it makes sense that in an elimination game you wouldnt go "hurr durr dont eliminate me, your not allowed to eliminate me until ive fulfilled my arbitrary quota of fun in this match even if that puts the game state in a bad spot for you"
hard tunneling only leads to victory if there is a huge mismatch(which means youve lost anyays) or your team is playing poorly and not touching gens and playing right into it.
Thats why i only tunnel in situations where i feel its required to get the game back in control as i understand the game well enough to play far better if im not hyperfocused on one person.
but at the end of the day, if you are so bad at the game you constantly get eliminated early in the game thats usually a you/your team issue.
Bullying someone out of the game = removing from the game without letting them play it, which is what hard tunneling at 5 gens is. you just assumed a ton of things and justified a lot more bad design problems along with it so lets talk about it:
you're endorsing people having to bring second chance perks rather than the extensive other perks in the game rather than endorsing a gameplay state where everything is viable not "second chance perk hell caused by tunneling being so common nobody wants to run anything else. this also empowers the only real survivor problem which is how strong a dedicated SWF can be. regular players in solo queue or even in a group that aren't minmax style SWFs are getting turbo stomped in this meta, that's not a good thing. it also ruins the game, its not fun to deal with even if you know how to deal with it. especially since DBD has no real Ranked system and the MMR is atrocious. but yeah lets just pretend like a foundationally unfun element of a game is a good thing and its the fault of the people dealing with it because they didn't want to run the same ten perks all of the time.
you just assumed I am the one being tunneled, there's four survivors. as soon as someone's getting tunneled at 5 gens its over. for a lot of reasons too, the major one is nobody likes it. people immediately quit because its so hated but its also because believe it or not, a good killer versus a good survivor who has -1 health state at all times is going to get them, and they are going to do it fast.
you cannot compare "Survivors doing gens" to "Killers singling out and ruining a game for someone on purpose" and the reality is that while some people are doing it because its viable, a lot of people also do it because they can. survivors are only provided a single objective and there is no other way to accomplish it, thats its own problem as theres no reason an asymmetrical game should be so linear but regardless there's no other methods to doing gens, the devs haven't put forth any. Killer can absolutely win without immediately going for one person and throwing them out of the game, they do all the time. and note that the killer is functionally the role of power in DBD which means they are a disproportionately strong role in a game where four people are supposed to be balanced as equal to them. S tier killer with decent experience can absolutely win games on repeat by tunneling people out.
"you join an elimination game" every PVP game is at its end, an elimination game, but good game design makes it so that even in elimination you get to actually play the game as its meant to be played. it is a bad game design that favors killers running one person down and downing them over and over again to win.
these points are all ultimately again, just affirming bad gameplay design and telling people who call it out that they are just bad at the game.
Why would anybody see that about half of people hate a mechanic and would rather not play if its involved (just per this poll alone but i guarantee you if only survivor mains were allowed to answer it would be almost entirely people who don't want to play a game where someone has been hard tunneled) and consider it a them problem and not a gameplay problem? its incredible to me that people are so against finding a solution to something people clearly hate. remove it from the game if nobody likes it, make the game balanced without it. -
so the valid counterplay you propose is run in a circle and vault TLs while the knight cuts you off. thats poor design on top of a boring concept that allows for no innovative gameplay.