jesterkind
jesterkind
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4097087#Comment_4097087
I got them the other day when a Hex Jason was keeping an eye on the first move and I was waiting for him to go on another survivor so I could have time to deal with his thrill hex.
It's the 2nd time I got crows vs a hex jason, they don't need to risk coming out of OE coz they get ruin value if no one is on gens, if someone is on a gen/totem then they get blood favor for p.much free.
OE is just not very interactive when used optimally.Hexes are an issue with Jason, yeah, if we're narrowing the scope to just those builds I can see how people would get crows if they're not confident.
The solution there is to weaken his ability to monitor hexes though.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4097325#Comment_4097325
you have a decision to make: do you want to risk Jason seeing you, or do you want to stay hidden?
The problem is crows decide that you can't stay hidden. All this killer has to do is hard tunnel one or two people out and your choice in the 2v1 is reveal yourself and die or wait for the crows to do it for you. His power negates every single stealth perk in the game, and every stealth option. It negates aura. It negates perks like Stakeout and Hyperfocus, one of the only gen builds not nerfed by diminishing. He also gets to do casual drive-bys on gens without leaving his power or even kicking. So focusing on gens is more restricted as well. OE forces survivors into a chase-based playstyle, and his assortment of other tricks makes the chases 10s against many players. The idea of voluntarily taking chase works fine if someone has that confidence, or if it's a SWF coordinating, but that's not most people. Not to mention the non-existent cooldown on OE which was heavily used to tunnel in my survivor matches.
The issue is OE on top of everything else. If that was his whole ability, minus haste and and KI, with no ranged attack, then the info would be fine, because he's now a regular M1 killer. He'd be Wraith but more interesting. But the ability to infinitely sit in OE until survivors absolutely most reveal themselves combined with a very easy to replenish projectile, haste, KI, and a bunch of mini moris that make saves impossible against an already overstuffed killer is just too much.
I mean, in a 2v1, yeah, but the long drawn out stealth standoffs there aren't exactly good for the game, that's its own issue that needs solving constructively for everyone involved.
While you're actually still playing the match, crows don't stop you from making the decision to stay hidden unless you're trying to avoid ever being seen at any point, which isn't something you have access to against any other killer either.
As for it negating every stealth tool, that comes at the cost of it having a counter that is far more effective than all of those stealth tools combined. Nothing that you can personally bring into a match can make you completely invisible and undetectable the way crouching while Jason's in OE can do. In a sense it gives every survivor stealth perks by default that they can choose when to use, because it replaces the usual perk-based stealth loop with one that's baked in to every single game against that killer.
Yes, at some point you have to show yourself and take chase, but that's not unique to Jason. That's just how DBD works. -
@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4097306#Comment_4097306
OE isn't comparable to anything else in the game. Sure, killers can see without an ability with just their eyes, but survivors can see them too. You can also just choose the right time to not be findable by utilizing other information, or perks. The only killer you can't deny your location from is Legion. But you can't deny a killer the information if you have zero ways to know where he is. If Jason gets all this free info their should be a visual that shows his presence.
The only things even slightly comparable to OE are Draculas'a bats and Henry's Undergate. But both make a lot noise, both are visible, neither get KI. Pretty sure everyone just waits for Dracula to fly by before getting on a gen. Henry is wrecked by prerunnng when he performs his very slow and obvious ascension from the ground. He also has a proper cooldown on his traversal ability and gets no free haste despite also being a 4.4.
I honestly don't know how you can view this as cool. He's power crept every teleporting and traversal killer and gets an absurd amount of info just for existing.
Part of my reasoning here is that he doesn't get as much information as some people are implying, because it seems like some people are acting like he has the red mist and footsteps as an increase on the info he has available and not a decrease.
He still can't see or hear survivors directly, which is a downgrade from just walking around normally and a downgrade from other "survivors are invisible" powers, and he's one of very few killers where you can be completely invisible and impossible to trace without prior knowledge of where you were when he entered his power.
There is a back and forth here - he's better at detecting people through floors than he would be with normal sight and sound, for example - but his info gain is a tradeoff rather than a straight increase.
That's what makes his basic power design cool to me. When he enters OE - which is the only tell you need for what I'm describing - you have a decision to make: do you want to risk Jason seeing you, or do you want to stay hidden?
Which of those two options is the right call depends heavily on a whole bunch of factors, which is kinda refreshing considering a good few killers have far more flowchart-esque counterplay. Plus, if you do decide you want to be hidden, you can be way more hidden than against most other killers, because again- if you stay crouched Jason cannot see or hear you at all, that's a more potent way of avoiding chase than you can get even with perks involved against other killers.Not being able to see him doesn't make a tremendous amount of difference here, the decision is about risk to begin with. If you're taking that risk (which is practically the right call by default, you'd need a reason to avoid him outright), you'll be scanning the teleport points nearby to see if he's manifesting, similar to looking out for Wraith's shimmer as he approaches.
I want to repeat though, I think some of the information he gets - mostly totem cleansing - isn't healthy. I'm talking strictly about the footsteps and generator mist here.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4097087#Comment_4097087
I was getting crows against him. I don't really see why a killer should force you into broadcasting your location. Why can't survivors stealth but this stealth killer can stay hidden for as long as he wants?
To be fair, every other killer save for Spirit and Dracula can just visually see you while you're on those generators. The difference between Jason and the others isn't that he can force you to broadcast your location, it's that you can actually hide yourself from him.
The Omnipresent Evil info structure is one of the cooler parts of his kit to me, it gives you a more potent ability to choose when you take chase compared to other killers. Some parts could be tweaked, for sure, but the mist on generators really isn't one of his problems imo.
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It's the team heal, far and away. It's not even close.
The Haste and unbreakable pallets are annoying too + I'd definitely suggest scrapping them for the next iteration of this event, but they're nowhere near as irritating as losing an injure instantly or watching the whole team get Adrenaline's strongest effect multiple times a match, not to mention that the heal is the one consistent effect survivors always get.
The portals are fine, immersed survivors are a little annoying but at least they're a role-agnostic toy to play with. The invincibility has enough wind up and a short enough duration that it's a non-issue and the invisibility is strong but at least feels appropriate for an event ability, disregarding how lopsided the fun toys are this year.
The heal, though… if the only adjustment made this year was to emergency hotfix out that effect entirely, I'd be happy.
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Chainsaw Man is definitely horror enough for DBD, but honestly, I think after how well Dungeons & Dragons was integrated… I'd be open to BHVR pulling more from things that aren't explicitly horror, up to a point.
They can clearly translate things well, if something has horror to be teased out I think this studio can do it.
There's still a line, of course, but I think it's further back after that demonstration.
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@random1543 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4097087#Comment_4097087
I've gotten crows before once in a Jason match, and saw a thread with another member also complain about getting crows with Jason before event.
My point in post is Jason can drag out the game using OE, survivors should be able to do that same to him with crouching / trying to bait in away from gens rather then basically being forced into areas he wants while you have no visual or audio ques that he is nearby. Its not that you have to crouch, its that you are FORCED to be seen, weather that is by you working on his prime gens or totems giving him red mist or getting crows because you are crouching/ trying to bait him away from his prime area.I understand other killers can do this but every other killers has visual or audio ques that they are nearby, (used wraith as example in previous comment) Jason does not while using OE, If he had any visual or audio que as he was moving around in OE (other then map specific stuff like grass) OR a longer cooldown on being able to use OE again would not be a issue. (or even not being able to see you do objectives as a previous comment mentioned)
Even if we compare to other killers who are good at holding prime areas, the survivors are still able to track their location though visuals or audio that they are nearby.It's not as though his presence isn't telegraphed at all, though. You can't see if he's just hovering around looking at your mist, but you can see (and hear) when he decides to actually target you because the Jumpscare takes enough time for you to start making distance before he's even fully manifested.
That's pretty in line with a killer like Wraith depending on how far you are from where he'd teleport to, and that just means how close vault spots are would be one of the variables for whether you'd crouch or not. There's a corner gen in a hallway on Hawkins for example where Jason just gets a hit for free, so you don't want to let him see you there if you can help it, but if you're in a safer gen then you don't really need to care as much.
That's why crows shouldn't be an issue, you're not just arbitrarily crouching because he's in Omnipresent Evil, you should be crouching as a tactical decision to deny him information in certain circumstances. Jason has issues but I truly don't see this as one of them, if a match is being dragged out by OE it's because everyone's crouching unnecessarily, not because of what the killer is doing.
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Surely nobody is crouching enough in a Jason match to actually be getting crows?
You don't crouch all the time, you only crouch if you need to avoid him finding you at that moment. If you're in a solid position and the gen you're doing isn't as important comparatively, you wouldn't even bother letting go of that gen at all, just let him see you.
I think some people have got it in their heads the only way to counter Jason is to make sure he never sees you at all, but that's not really how it works. You CAN make sure he doesn't see you, IF you need the heat to be on someone else (injured on death hook, doing an important central gen, etc).
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There are a lot of chase perks in the game right now, what kind are you looking for?
Even vault speed, which I'm assuming is what you mean from old Spine Chill, is present on two other perks at the moment.
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Giving him all his traps at the start of the match isn't the best idea, it emboldens and strengths the most obnoxious ways of playing him more than it helps playing him "properly", so to speak.
If I were to give Trapper a quick and dirty update to try and address some pain points in just one patch, I'd probably pitch the following:
- Traps spawn placed at windows and pallets (still close to generators like now), so experienced players can eyeball and make a judgement call on whether to pick up or just drive-by arm it and brand new players can be shown where bread and butter trap spots are
- Massive addon overhaul that focuses more on survivors disarming traps as a trigger for common effects, and that also gives him some effects he doesn't currently have like Undetectable and Exhaustion
- Optionally give the traps a handful of map variants so they're less likely to stick out on unfavourable maps
- Optionally let him re-arm traps on the ground faster than placing them from his inventory
Something along those lines I think would get him up to the point where you'd stop and monitor him again. He's never gonna be top tier, but he could be a lot better than he is.
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I don't know, I think Jason has issues but I don't think being conditionally 4.6 is one of them. It encourages him weaving in and out of his power, and the ranged attack he gets is reasonably restricted in being one shot before a reload and being reasonably reactable while he has it.
I could see some nerfs like decreasing the duration of Haste slightly, increasing the distance between scrap piles so whiffing is more punishing, and maybe making hooks stay broken for longer if he grabs from there so it's more of a tradeoff being worth exploring, but the general shape of how his power is designed there doesn't really strike me as his major issue.To me the far bigger issue with Jason is that he can see you cleansing totems and opening the exit gate, those two bits of information encourage some really nasty strategies on the killer side. I'd much sooner see those things adjusted, on top of him obviously having a couple way overtuned addons.
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It's a difficult question to answer because there are far too many variables.
We can imagine two hypothetical games, in neither of which are any perks or other loadout options restricted. In game one, the four survivors are a SWF coordinating strong meta perks for robust chases, decent gen speeds, fast heals, the like, but the killer's playing Wraith with a fairly gimmicky off-meta build + plays the game fairly.
In this game, the killer's not throwing, they're playing a perfectly serviceable killer with perfectly okay perk choices, but what the survivors brought means that match is gonna tilt towards them.In game two, the survivors are solos, a pair of duos, or just a casual four-man, all of whom are bringing perfectly decent off-meta perks and an array of middling items, but the killer is a Nurse with slowdown + aura who tunnels aggressively off their first hook.
This is the reverse. The survivors here aren't throwing either, what they're doing is perfectly down the middle and viable, but what the killer brought just outclasses them.This isn't even getting to maps; it could be that both sides decided to bring their A game or both decided to bring generally decent stuff, but in match one the survivors get Garden of Joy and in match two the killer gets Midwich, meaning those matches slant one way or another anyway.
The argument could be made that the game is killer sided because coordinating three other human beings for highly specific builds is less accessible than picking a strong killer and targeting someone as soon as they're unhooked, and I sort of agree, but at the same time killer choice is a huge variable- some people just aren't going to be picking Nurse or Blight, and many try to play the game without crutching on a huge balance problem like tunnelling. The game isn't as clearly killer sided for them and I do think that matters for a conversation like this.
Zooming out and assuming a matched set of players, as in, they're all bringing the same intensity and nobody's leaning on any balance issues… I'd say the game's actually pretty fairly balanced. At the same time, though, how likely is a match like that to happen?
Ultimately where I land is that the game isn't killer sided or survivor sided because the balance problems are too specific.
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Not really?
I feel like killers were just as likely to slug for the 4k and just as unlikely to carry you to hatch before. The last survivor mori had basically zero impact on this as far as I've observed.
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The short answer is that they don't.
Every once in a while something will happen that in a vacuum lowers BP gain - something like removing the BP bonus from perks or lowering the maximum on the role queue incentive - but they pale in comparison to the ways the grind has been obliterated and they give BP away like candy.
6.1 was the start of this, because it took a sledgehammer to the perk grind and made it so that new characters represent a flat increase, not an exponential one. Starting from assuming you actually care about the new character's perks - which I always do because I've been playing for years and like to have everything, but the average player may not - they represent a flat addition of three prestiges, that's it. Then you're done and their stuff is unlocked on everyone.
They've also increased BP gained in matches and the category cap in matches (for survivors anyway, killers never had this issue), lowered the amount that things in the bloodweb cost, added a role incentive for extra bloodpoints (which wasn't for lowering the grind but still helped there), added BP to the empty spots in the rift, added the milestone system, routinely have login bonuses for extra BP, and semi-consistently give out big chunks via codes or inbox messages.Trying to explain why BHVR are lowering effective BP gain or increasing the grind misses that the opposite is true, the grind's been steadily lowered by a lot over the years. This game barely has a grind unless you're looking at a longterm goal like P100 or every perk unlocked on every character.
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I think a lot of people just quietly realised this system doesn't affect their builds nearly as much as they thought, because it really isn't currently a problem.
All that's really "needed" is to buff a handful of perks with low numbers, and even then the needle hasn't really moved on how useful those perks actually are right now.
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There's one thing I want to speak out against here and I'm only doing it because I think it being untrue (in my eyes) is a sharper criticism than it being true, which is the idea that the poison isn't good.
It is. It's disgustingly powerful. It basically guarantees a free hit in 90% of all possible scenarios after the bottle connects, its strength at stopping survivors running away is difficult to overstate.
What I think is more pressing is that killers only really get two things, three if you count the portals (which are for both sides and not a killer or survivor thing, so, debatable how it should count), and the only one of them that's worth anything is boring.
Survivors get some honest to god toys this event. Sure, the passive heal and the Haste effect are just boring improvements like the poison is, but the invisibility, the endurance, and the minigame of ferrying morsels to the table are all gameplay-changing effects that open up some interesting opportunities and situations for the player using them.
The bottles, though… outside of needing to aim them manually, which is something, you just get the survivor slowing down so you can hit them. The idea of the stamina bar could've been a bit more interesting, but the implementation is just that killer gets a basically free hit for a minor mechanical feat.What this event desperately needed, in addition to some of the survivor effects being toned down (and removed in the case of the free heal, my god), is ways for killers to get toys as well. Even something as basic as Undetectable opens up more opportunities than the poison bottle does, and a bit of creativity could get killer something as unique as the invisibility as well.
I actually like the format and presentation of the Black Banquet, so I hope BHVR doesn't abandon it, but it desperately needs more active gameplay for killers. It's okay for killers to have less, because killers already have powers, but they shouldn't have this little.
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I'd argue that the light pressure to play a more diverse spread of killers that comes from wanting to do a challenge more smoothly is a good thing, and we should probably get more of it from a more diverse array of quests.
It's a very organic way of encouraging killer diversity, because nobody needs to swap killer to do it (like with the old tome quests) but they might feel inclined to.
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@Memesis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4094376#Comment_4094376
The way I see, m1 basic-break-only killers aren't going to use this perk anyway. Enduring spirit fury will always be more practical. If you over buff it, it will feel brainless to play against. The only killers that would get any fun synergy out of it are special breakers
Well, the full rework I suggested would fix that, at least. I still don't think it'd be healthy to give this effect to special break killers.
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@Memesis said:
All it needs is to gain tokens on special breaks to be decent. That, scared to death and game afoot are worthless not working on special breaks.
Hard disagree. I really don't think killers with special breaks are the ones who need this kind of effect, it's better to lean into what it does right now in boosting killers who just have to deal with pallets.
This goes triple for Scared To Death, that perk just needs a bit of a range increase and it's fine but it definitely isn't an effect special break killers should have.
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The answer, I would strenuously argue, is neither.
Default gen speeds are perfectly fair. Good killer play can disrupt it and slow things down, but skillful survivor play + decisionmaking can tilt the match in their favour, I think it's pretty fair.
Gen repair perks range from decent but not incredible to outright bad. The ones that are worth running typically provide a passive but inconsequential boost (eg, Deja Vu) or they provide a more noticeable boost that requires something from you to activate (eg, Overzealous).
Where the problem lays is in two places, one major and one minor. The minor one, just to get it out of the way, is a lot of commenters don't generally understand how to slow gens down or even that it's something they need to be concerned with, and misplace their complaint onto gen speeds. This isn't always the case and it doesn't have to be the ONLY thing happening in any given complaint, but it's worth mentioning.
The major problem is toolboxes. No perk build that doesn't involve toolboxes can even scratch the effectiveness of a stacked toolbox with even just one extra perk to support it, let alone a full build. Toolboxes are so extravagantly overtuned that, were they to be fixed in any given patch (such as by removing their repair speed bonus and replacing it with something else), genrushing as we know it would disappear overnight.
I do think the distinction matters, because the source of the problem really is very specific and not identifying that could lead to nerfs that target the wrong thing and don't address the problem.
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@IronKnight55 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4094124#Comment_4094124
Probably because people were hoarding thousands of cakes, and they want players to grind more.What better way to keep people playing and grinding for longer than by taking away their cakes?
It's not as though the cakes actually affect the minimal grind we have substantially more than a bloody party streamers, though. These cakes aren't incredibly potent, they're a 10% increase.
To the overall topic I've never really understood this drama and it rolls around every year. Sure, I don't really know why BHVR bothered to change the rarity either, doesn't seem like it was worth doing, but at the end of the day cakes aren't so scarce you aren't coming out comfortably ahead by levelling your character between matches.
I really don't know why people want or expect thousands of cakes stocked at the end of the event. What difference does that actually make…?
It'd suck to run out of cakes during the event because they affect the event directly, but other than that they're just a themed replacement for a BPS. -
Have they ever actually done this for basekit changes?
That's a legitimate question, I'm trying to think if any event-specific mechanic ever made it to the basekit of the main game. The most I can think is that fragile pallets and the void fog crystal thing both became perks, but I can't think of any situation where something actually became basekit after being put in an event mode.
I could definitely see them reusing these effects for a perk down the line, but people always say basekit too/instead and I'm really trying to think if that's ever happened.
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It operates based on survivors being outside of your terror radius, so Pig has the dual benefit of having a smaller default TR and the ability to go Undetectable, both of which mean she's going to be getting pings from FtD more frequently than other killers might.
iirc screams also interrupt box searches on Pig, so it activating has that benefit too.
Pig is definitely one of the better users of Face the Darkness, I'd say.
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I don't know, I've been playing Jason a fair amount and I don't think that's really a problem?
If you're actively aiming you're looking at the end of the spike anyways, because that's generally where you'd be throwing it. When you ADS as Deathslinger that also tightens what you're able to see, because you're actively aiming and the focus is the point.
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I don't know about anyone else, but I'm having a blast. This is the most fun I've had with a new killer since Houndmaster, I'm eating very well here!
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@NeverSolus said:
Jester is right in that they aren't far off from being good, theoretically.
Silent Shadow - Leave as is. I suspect we're going to see a Silent Shadow + NOED explosion. Either completely rework it, or leave it alone. I suspect a total rework will be in order to prevent an unhealthy end-game meta. Just triggering on gen completion and removing the final gen progress would make it sub par unless the duration went up to 30 seconds or so.
Scared to Death - Either remove the hex part of it entirely, or reduce trigger requirements. It's a perk that can be broken, and likely will be broken, so it should be starting from the first hook. Otherwise no one will bring it, as there's a huge chance for it to be cleansed before it ever adds value at all.
Rampage - I disagree with Jester here, respectfully. This is garbage. Charging tokens by breaking pallets is punishing in and of itself given the time sink involved - and it generates tokens far, far too slowly. Last I checked it takes 2.34 seconds to break a pallet. Factoring five seconds to move between pallets, that's 95.4 seconds of nonstop pallet breaking, doing nothing else, to fully charge this perk. That's enough time for up to four generators to be completed in standard settings, and more likely two on average. So to translate this in time as a resource, I sacrifice one of my four perk slots to lose two generators before this perk comes online. Then it requires me to be stunned by a pallet (of which very few are left now because I broke 13), or be flashlighted (which I should just be looking away and avoiding), to get 13 seconds of 13% haste.
So I have to build tokens, which requires survivor interaction to begin with in throwing pallets, and then I get the privilege of getting haste if I let them blind me? AND they can just counter it by having champion of light? Shadowborn gives 10% haste for 10 seconds right out of the gate with no pallet breaking requirements, making it immensely easier to use, and it's still considered a bad perk.
No. Rampage is just bad. Max haste per token should be [2*TOKEN]%, and duration should be lowered to 9 seconds. Give me 26% haste for 9 seconds (three seconds of which is lost to, you know, being blinded) and we'll talk. Otherwise either get rid of the pallet breaking requirement entirely, or skyrocket the value from the trigger. Outside of that it needs outside interaction buffs to be even remotely plausible.I'm not sure I'd agree that pallet breaking is in and of itself a punishing trigger, it's a part of normal gameplay.
There are pallets that must be broken for the chase to continue, and a lot more that you're going to want to break to make a hit easier. That on its own isn't too egregious in my opinion.
It's also worth considering what the break points for perk value are, not just the perk's whole value. Zooming out from any of the perk's specifics, this gives you a percentage of Haste for thirteen seconds. To me, the minimum number for that being noticeable would be 5%, and the minimum number for that being good would be 8%.
Looking back at the perk's specifics, this is a bit different if it activates from a stun because part of the duration is eaten into by the stun itself, but nothing about being blinded would change those numbers, which is why I consider this mostly an anti-flashlight perk.Right now, getting to those break points is miserable, eight pallets is a lot. At double token generation speed, though, you only have to break four, and it's not impossible for that to be your first chase if you're unlucky. More typically, especially as more of an M1 killer (who are more likely to use this anyway), it's probably your second or third.
Two tokens per pallet break would mean survivors who like to blind you at pallets or windows are way more likely to get taken off guard and smacked when you speed after them because it'll happen way sooner.
Though, I didn't mention this in my first post, I'd also like if it granted its tokens at the START of the break animation, not the end, so those same survivors blinding you means you actually get to benefit straight away.You're right that Shadowborn already does this and people already don't bring it, though, so I wouldn't oppose a full rework. I just think this perk can be made "decent enough" with that one small change.
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@bm33 said:
Diablo 4 - They could have character skins, Maurice could be a horse cosmetic, Victor or mini Dwight could be a pet. They could make the undercity DBD themed for limited time where its gens or need to make dull totems a boon totem instead of lighting spirit beacons and boss at end is a DBD killer.
Outlast Trials - Could have skins in an event catalogue with DBD theme. Trials could have fog variator and secondary objective to collect gen repair parts. All the trials for the events would be the ones that require gen activation.
Phasmophobia - Could do an event similar to the Alan Wake event. It could take place on the camp maps. There could be totems to cleanse or gens to activate around the map for event points. Ghost forms could be DBD killers. Rewards could be survivor cosmetics.
Powerwash Sim 2 - Could do several levels of cleaning main building/shack of different maps. The texts about why it's so dirty could vary from different killers or survivors.
Houseflipper 2 - Renovate different main buildings/shacks on maps. One employing/giving description could be killer or survivor.
I wouldn't mind seeing another DBD side mission in the upcoming Assassins Creed Hexe. The Oni one in Shadows was fun.
Oh man, I would love a Powerwash Simulator DLC for DBD cleaning the shack and the like, that'd be really fun.
You could even toss in some lore characters sending the texts, like Tryks. I'd definitely play that.
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I don't think they're that far away from being good, honestly.
Silent Shadow just is already in a completely acceptable spot. You have a reliable and strong primary effect in the endgame stealth, and a weaker pseudo-sidegrade to Furtive Chase on the secondary effect. That's fine, not to say it can't be improved but it's totally usable as is. I wouldn't suggest any changes, I just want the start-of-round stealth it had on the PTB to be put on a different perk, I liked that.
Scared to Death I think is actually really close to being good. Taking Vigil out of the equation, you've got a decent enough effect on a hex that benefits from being delayed, that stacks nicely with other tools because what it does won't have Diminishing Returns overlap with the most obvious synergies.
Were I to suggest changes, I'd probably lean towards lowering the activation requirement to two hooks instead of three. It being delayed makes it stronger, but it'd be nice it if activated juuuuust a bit sooner. You could buff the effect by increasing the duration up to five seconds, but I personally don't mind perks that shine best in full builds.Rampage is the one I think is hurting most, but again, I think it's pretty close. All I'd do with it is make it scale faster, two tokens per pallet break with the last break only giving one token for the 13 reference.
That way you've got an anti-flashlight perk that scales fast enough it's not unreasonable you'll actually get to benefit from it the first time someone tries to blind you at a pallet. Niche, but not too weak within that niche.None of these are gonna be meta-defining monsters, but they're all pretty close to having a reasonable place in the game, with the exception of Silent Shadow that's already there.
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@Sp00kyb0b said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4088416#Comment_4088416
That was it… thank you so much !!
Ayyy, we found it
Happy to help!
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Do you maybe have one of the Remix tome challenges activated by mistake? That's the only thing I can think of with the information provided.
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I do think it'd be a no-brainer to make them optional for all characters. It's supposed to be a big step forward to make the game better for people, and a toggle probably doesn't represent so much extra work that it isn't worth doing for the parts of the community who prefer their characters not talk.
Hopefully if they don't already have it planned, it's something that enough feedback will have them add partway through.
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That's awful to hear, I wish him the best as well!
Here's hoping for a speedy recovery with minimal complications.
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Happy ten years to DBD, here's to ten more. I haven't been playing for the game's whole existence, but I definitely plan to be celebrating my own ten-year anniversary when that rolls around.
One of my favourite stories from playing DBD comes from one of my survivor games that happened shortly after Xenomorph's addition to the game. The killer in this match actually was Xenomorph, and one of my fellow survivors was playing Ripley.
It's the end of the game, with the gates open and at least three of us still alive, I forget the exact number. I end up getting downed and hooked, so I shrug and start thinking about the next match, as you do.This Ripley player, however, runs right back into the trial and unhooks me, tanking a hit from the Xenomorph as we both scurry out of the exit gates.
What tickles me about this story in particular is that Ripley going back in for one last heroic act is extremely in-character… and it also means that I was Jonesy the cat in this scenario.
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Damn, now that is a generous code.
Instant P3 on the two new upcoming characters, lmfao
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@KerJuice said:
Revert the following perks back to their original/intended release (all buffs): pain res, ruin, undying, NOED, Off the Record, DS, WGLF, Lucky Break, Distortion, Sloppy Butcher.
Revert Chucky, Trickster, and Blight back to release (buffs).
Revert having endurance and haste for survivors off hook.
Revert smoke grenades to original release.Buff Territorial Imperative to aura reading once inside shack period, not just basement. If perk is equipped, a map with basement in shack must be selected.
Revert all maps, keys, and add-ons back prior to last rework.
Remove negatives from Calm Spirit, Iron Will, and Medkits.
iIncrease map offerings to 45% chance of success for selection.
Wouldn't a lot of those be nerfs, not buffs?
OTR, WGLF, and Lucky Break have all basically only been buffed since release, exempting the duration nerf for OTR and the speed nerf for WGLF. The release iterations of those perks were all missing key components - OTR didn't have Endurance or scratch mark blocking, WGLF only increased BP gain on release, and Lucky Break didn't block scratch marks + couldn't be recovered on release - and even only partial reversions would be walking back buffs for the most part.
Trickster and Blight were also much worse on release. Especially Trickster- Blight's release was before my time but I do remember Trickster's release and he was godawful.
Some of these I do see the reasoning, but I'm curious if I'm missing something on the ones I mentioned.
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I'm of the opinion that if a new player is spooked by what they perceive as a crazy grind to get all the characters and perks, the best response is to tell them "You really don't need all of that, don't worry about it."
I've been playing for years, I do have everything unlocked, and I personally use a fraction of that stuff regularly. It just isn't that important to unlock a litany of perks you'll never use, just focus on what you have and the next handful of perks that look interesting.
The actual unlock-to-unlock grind is minimal these days, that's the far better way of approaching the game.
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@TurnOffTheTVs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4086000#Comment_4086000
It's so funny how this has more downvotes than upvotes. This site is genuinely just an echo chamber for survivor players. Every single CC. Every single top dbd player has said the same thing.
Cross examination is a disgustingly overpowered perk that should not exist in its current form. Elusive is too powerful of a status effect to just hand out willy nilly.
Not a single argument gets made for why it's balanced, they just downvote and move on because they can't actually retort anything.
In this instance, to be fair, I think it's more that people who are being overtly hostile and unhelpful are getting downvoted.
Downvotes don't mean anything, of course, you shouldn't pay attention to them. Here though, of we want to find an explanation, I think it's more that posters ranting about how the devs must favour survivors because this perk is the most broken thing to ever exist in the game is just kind of annoying.
Plus, of course, if you disagree with the overall opinion of a given thread you get downvoted, that's just how it works.
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The thing is, there really isn't that much of a grind anymore, at least when it comes to BP/unlocking perks. Unlocking characters can be very grindy, but that's another conversation.
I think a big problem is that people don't focus on how much time/grind one prestige takes, which is the important metric, and instead zoom all the way out to how long it takes to get everything unlocked on every character. That's already a longterm grind, and be honest with yourself- you're never using half of those perks. I don't use half of those perks, and I'm a noted perk defender who likes using unpopular or off meta things.
I have to imagine most people don't even own every character. Again, I didn't for a long time and only purchased the survivors in particular that I was missing because I got a chunk of auric cells and figured I might as well.
You can get one prestige done in about four to five games in my experience, and that's assuming you're just going based off a BP offering, if you've got quests and the like to do it's even quicker. That means the pace of unlocking things in general is quite high, and the pace of unlocking the specific things you actually want is even higher.
It's a mistake to invoke new players here especially, new players definitely don't have every character or care about getting to the end point of everything being unlocked ASAP. I remember my brother getting into DBD around Springtrap's release and him being generally baffled people think this game has a grind problem because he was unlocking things very quickly.
TL;DR, getting everything unlocked is a grind, but that's a very specific goal that any given player might not even care about achieving. The actual unlock-to-unlock grind is very forgiving, especially compared to how it used to be.
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@coldflame said:
i dont understand the obsession bhvr has with killers not being allowed to focus their primary match objective
facecamping was problematic because it was undirected griefing, sure, but defending hooks being verboten in the 'put people on hooks and defend them' game is insane
it's like if survivors got penalised for being to close too a generator
This isn't a "put people on hooks and defend them" game, though, it's a "put people on hooks and go chase someone else" game.
Almost every level of killer gameplay, with the way the game is currently built, is about juggling your objectives to slow down your opponents trying to do their objectives. You can get that with proxy camping, but not if you're trying to force someone through hook stages without them being unhooked first.
That's not why killers get anticamp in their powers, though, imo that's just to stop them being too good at proxy camping. Jason, like anyone else, can still walk back to a hook to see if there's someone coming for the save he can intercept. That basic tactic is still available, the devs seem to just not want him to be better at it proportionally than anyone else, which is reasonably fair I think.
If there's any problem with this change, it's with multi-story maps causing it to trigger when you're not camping. -
@iphone_T said:
can scared of the dark get some touch ups? Whole activation requirement that takes awhile all for an effect that needs another activation requirement that isn’t that strong and can be permanently disabled by survivors? Perk should either have the activation requirement removed or just not be a Hex.
To be fair, the fact that it doesn't spawn at the start of the trial is a benefit, not a weakness. The problem with hexes is that they can very consistently be cleansed before they do anything because of survivors spawning near them or stumbling across them while moving to the first generator.
A hex that takes a bit to spawn is stronger than its peers in this regard.
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It's more conditional, mostly.
Don't get me wrong, Self Preservation is a really good perk, good enough that a small duration nerf sometime down the line wouldn't surprise me even if I wouldn't push for it myself, but it's still restricted more than old Distortion was.
Distortion activates based on when the killer actually tries to read your aura, so it's impossible for any use of the perk to be wasted. Before, it also had the distinction of the token system not really mattering because you got them back fairly quickly and with very little downtime because being in the killer's terror radius is something that happens naturally.
Functionally, this meant old Distortion just turned off the concept of aura reading in 90% of matches you brought it. There were specific setups that could beat old Distortion, but they were the exception, not the rule.Self Preservation though, because it activates from someone else being hooked and has a timer, can have procs wasted wrt aura blocking, because it's not as good at stopping the killer from using mid-chase perks, or perks like Nowhere To Hide, things in that vein. It's very good at blocking hook-related auras, obviously, but it's weaker proportionally at everything else.
This actually puts it very nicely in line with current Distortion, funnily enough. That perk's very good at blocking early auras like Lethal and mid-chase auras like I'm All Ears or Predator, but it's proportionally not as good (but still worthwhile) at blocking off-hook auras since you need to be chased to get tokens back.
Self Preservation is the other way around. They're both strong, viable picks depending on what you want to achieve with your aura blocking, while allowing Distortion to still be the generalist pick that works more smoothly than its peers.Anti-aura is in a way healthier spot than it used to be, that's for sure.
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@Brokenbones said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4084453#Comment_4084453
I think if they wanted to 'fix' babysitter, they could rework it to behave like 'No one Left Behind' where it doesn't give the survivor haste, it INCREASES their basekit haste by the % instead.
Maybe some would think that's too strong but that's how babysitter worked pre-diminishing returns so it can't have been too bad.
Yeah, I had a similar thing in mind, something like that would neatly fix this particular issue.
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@Goblin_BHVR said:
Hello!!
Thanks for taking the time to write out your thoughts, even the criticism are always appreciated!
We'd be interested in hearing more about what people think - which perks would you like to see changed due to Diminishing Returns? What builds do you feel it has affected? Anything else you can think of that's relevant, please please feel free to let us know!
Thanks!
While nothing's being directly and dramatically affected (outside of stacking four of the same modifier, which was the point anyway), there are a few things I'd personally think are worth looking at, which I'll put in a bulletin list for convenience:
- Power of Two and Blood Pact. Specifically together; it's the only time anyone ran these two perks that I'm aware of, and even then it was a gimmick thing. It's one of the few instances where I think the lessened stacking actually matters for just two perks, but what I'd recommend is slightly buffing Power of Two then reworking Blood Pact, there's no reason for both to be in the game at once.
- Fire Up. While this perk's main draw - the pickup speed - isn't affected that much, it is one of those instances where you'd want to pair it with something else for the other effects (think Brutal Strength for the break speed, or Bamboozle for the vault speed) but the new system makes that not really worth it. This isn't catastrophic for Fire Up because it does multiple things at once, so one thing being lowered is less relevant proportionally, but it's still worth looking at.
- Babysitter. Now I might be wrong about this, I haven't had this perk used on me so I can't test, but I believe Babysitter's Haste effect is just immediately and inherently reduced by the off-hook Haste you get by default. Again, not a catastrophic deal because Babysitter does more things + the Haste lasts longer than the basekit Haste anyway, but worth looking at.
- Champion of Light and Fixated. Specifically together, the two are fine individually with other strong use cases, but I think the combo's worth evaluating. Could be a reasonable thing to accept as collateral, could warrant changes.
- Better Than New. This isn't a perk that's actually affected by the DR system itself, but I want to highlight that the DR system opens up a new buff for this perk to allow it to give a chase buff- if you give it vault speed now, stacking with Finesse is less scary, and then the perk can fully realise its potential as "you're now buffed for anything you do except repair".
- In general, small percentage Haste perks like Batteries Included and Undone can safely be made a bit better than they currently are. This probably applies to survivor too but the only one I can think of off the top of my head is Dark Theory which I don't think necessarily should be buffed that way, it needs a secondary effect more than a numbers buff.
I wouldn't consider this list a rundown of perks that need changes because of the DR system, at least not all of them, but I do think these are among the best potential candidates for the DR system allowing more robust buffs.
Overall this system was implemented pretty smoothly. It does what it's meant to without significant collateral damage. However, at the same time, a huge amount of this system's potential value is in the future changes it allows, so I'd really love to see those changes happen sometime soon.
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@SoGo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4084239#Comment_4084239
The main point of why Gift of Pain and Sloppy Butcher are in my list is because both were omega-nerfed with the Mangled nerfs. And now that you cannot really stack antiheal that well, I believe that can be reversed.
Sloppy Butcher I'm less sure on, but I think GoP is fine. Staying injured is one of the favourable choices, so waiting out the timer doesn't actually harm this perk all that much. If they stay injured that long, you can capitalise on them being injured when you come back to them.
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@Ohyakno said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4084234#Comment_4084234
You said it's almost meta. Meta perks are popular, gift of pain is not.
Frankly it takes too long to do anything and is countered entirely by just staying injured or taking hits for a survivor being chased. Good survivors have little issue with this. As long as the perk has clear and simple counterplay it will never be a really good perk.
Yes, as in, it's good enough that it could be in the meta, it just happens to be unpopular.
Survivors staying injured is also one of the favourable outcomes of this perk.
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@Ohyakno said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4084134#Comment_4084134
Gift of pain isn't near the top ten most used perks. It has a usage rate commisirate with I'm all ears. It's like a solid B- tier perk. Hardly game breaking or defining.
That just means it's underrated, not that it isn't good enough to be in the top ten.
I use it a lot, it's a very solid perk that also is the only potent counter to Resurgence which is in the meta.
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@AGM said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4084212#Comment_4084212
Not trying to be snarky or anything, but if that's all it did then why did they use precious dev time implementing it in the first place? There were already so many mediocre perks, and it feels like diminishing returns just created a longer list of trash tier perks to balance, like Leader, Better Than New, Fire Up, etc. :/
My understanding is that it's meant to stabilise the baseline, to stop any future stacking from becoming a problem. It's happened before, with healing speed or repair speed penalties, so it's worth protecting against I think.
It also isn't really affecting individual perks that much. Leader's still in the same "this is a fine perk but hardly a top tier" position it's always been in, BTN is exactly as bad as it was before, Fire Up still isn't worth bringing… the DR system just isn't moving the needle at all here.
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@Tamo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4084192#Comment_4084192
I don't need build advice from someone who doesn't think that buildcrafting was affected by diminishing returns. Perks are made more viable or make for better use when they can be stacked with other similar perks. Weak perks will be weak but could be given some value or viability when paired with other perks. Many perks that stack though are never going to be used EVER because after the second perk the stack becomes practically redundant.
Some builds are affected, I wouldn't claim otherwise.
However, it's really relevant here that stacking the same effect is NOT the entirety of buildcrafting. There are a lot more ways of finding synergies than just using the same modifier more than once, and using the same modifier more than twice has always been either a silly gimmick or something people did because the combo ended up broken.
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I promise, Diminishing Returns has had very little impact on build crafting.
Some of the more interesting and useful synergies don't involve stacking the same % effect, and the way the DR system works you can still very reasonably stack two in the same build if there's some reason you'd want to do that. I'm a big believer in build crafting, I think it's one of the most interesting and compelling parts of the game, and while some of my builds are affected on a strictly literal level absolutely none of them have been killed.
What kind of builds do you like, what's your playstyle? I'm more than willing to pitch some builds and synergies that still exist if you do really want to run something other than the meta.
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To be fair, I think a good few of these perks need help for reasons that don't really interact with the DR system. Take Calm Spirit, for example, that perk has needed its downside mitigated or (ideally) removed since well before the DR system and its inclusion hasn't moved the needle at all.
I don't see most of these perks being affected by the DR system in general, mostly because the DR system isn't really affecting single perks directly at all.
As an aside, Gift of Pain is a top tier almost-meta perk & it really doesn't need to be buffed, said as someone who runs it in almost every match.