Hex: Under Your Thumb HAS TO GO
I haven't seen anyone talking about this yet but this is the most obscenely overpowered hex in the game. I understand why they thought it would be good on The Judgement since she is so slow and immobile but did they not consider mobility killers at all??? For reference, Balanced Landing gets you almost no distance with this, if you combine that with weskers hindered effect you get zero distance against a killer with two dashes built into his kit. what about kaneki? The Blight? Myers? no lithe? what the heck is that? TOTH still exists btw, although it is getting reworked soon. but Vigil is getting gutted because it "has too consistent of an effect against too much" and this is getting added? This perk kills most of the Exhaustion perks.
I was extremely concerned with the Judgement herself, and whether adding a killer based around sniping people without directly interacting with them was even a good idea so much so that this went under my radar, I haven't even had a particularly bad time with judgement I think they're a lot more interesting than I had assumed they would be, although annoying strategies are already starting to form. but try getting tunneled by a Wesker who has Under Your Thumb… what about the way this perk interacts with Blood Fury or any killer perk that blocks vaults..
This perk actually has to go away or be severely nerfed, It's not even relevant to the judgement, it's unreal how badly it nerfs the best counters to mobility killers.
Comments
it's a hex break it. if it's that prevalant use counterforce
… Ah we for real right now? Just break the totem. It's not even that good of a perk.
classic killer main "skill issue" response.
We are getting a hex to absolutely murder Exhaustion Perks at the same time vigil is going to be reworked to only affect exhaustion perks, and Tunneling has just been buffed and Hex totems are totally unstable.
TOTH makes this perk unfathomably overkill. a 15% nerf to haste is strong, this takes SB, Lithe, Breakout, Balanced from 150% to 115% Movement Speed WITH AN AURA READ. suddenly viable distance needed to survive a chase is entirely gone and the hex totem starts the match without being ignited so nobody knows it's in play. acting like this isn't ridiculously strong when paired with certain killers and perks is unbelievable.
Devour hope is an instant one shot that gives haste. You know the counter? You break the totem. If it glows, it goes.
And this is the totem you take exception with? I'm so confused.
Oh yeah man Vigil is unfairly OP because it helps you recover from statuses faster so we have to gut it to only having a 30% effect on Exhaustion recovery and also remove everything else from it but lets throw in a hex totem that starts the game unlit which deletes Distance Making perks. "Just break the totem" when in Solo Queue totems go the whole match without even being found.
We are for real in a state of
"If you don't like being tunneled bring anti tunnel"
"If you don't like hexes bring an anti hex build"
"Just run Kindred its solo queue"
yeah sure bro I'll get right on filling up all 24 of my own personal perk slots up with these counters.
They just added a tunnel affirming Hex totem which works insanely well with restrictive perks and negative status effects and its a "just break the totem" problem for you?
If Vigil is a problem just catch the survivor. if old DH was a problem just catch the survivor, if Circle of Healing was a problem just stomp the totem.
Devour is a power creep perk, it does not immediately give the killer an incredible advantage and gives survivors plenty of time to find it. and, might i add, you can run them both. all of the sudden you're permanently exposed AND exhaustion perks don't work. and you have to cleanse TOTH + Devour + Under Your Thumb.
I'll admit to not having played on this patch just yet (hopping on later tonight), but surely this being a hex means you can play around it?
You could bring anti-hex perks like Counterforce, use more active totem perks like Overzealous, or swap from Haste to some other kind of build. Worst case scenario is you swap off Exhaustion perks until next patch when TOTH is reworked, and while that's annoying I don't think it's that big of a deal.
Personally I suspect it'll probably be popular so I'll likely sub in a map with the totem-finding addon for some of my builds, that should probably do it. Failing that, something without Exhaustion or a full totem build should do nicely against this.
The Look is part of the problem. Already Vigil being nerfed has been extremely controversial, and even people who think it needed a bit of a nerf tend to disagree with the fact it is getting totally gutted, at the same time there is an uproar over a projected nerf to The Judgement pre-release (And after playing against the Judgement I do understand why people were upset, I don't think the nerf was necessary, especially not if they had added the visual effect as a warning) and the Devs clearly listen to the player outrage about the Judgements Nerfs but totally ignore the outrage regarding vigil and a continued worsened state of playing Survivor.
Mind you The Judgement totally renders dozens of perks unusable because she doesn't hook people very often, so you have an update that essentially blows up a good generalized survivor perk (Granted it was pushed back until an upcoming patch), releases a killer that with time will be insanely rough to deal with, and adds a perk that stomps vigil even farther into the ground as well as nerfing off-hook endurance pretty significantly.
And What about killers that are both very oppressive and can defend totems? it just seems shortsighted. It would be different if we were talking about a 15% nerf to haste but its an insane 35% speed nerf from Haste Exhaustion Perks. as i mentioned pair that with hindered from Wesker, or just the general movement ability of The Ghoul or Blight. Balanced Landing makes no distance at all anymore under that. The perk is way too strong, if it was a 15% nerf it was very strong just like Blood Favor is very strong. it will further encourage people to get off of gens and look for the totem immediately too which is a pretty bad recurrent stall in solo queue.
I don't really see the connection between Vigil and this perk. Five other perks were nerfed this patch too, that's just something that happens alongside new perks, even strong ones.
As for it being too strong, it is a hex, isn't it meant to be strong? It should be an effect that makes you want to go out and cleanse the totem to stop being affected by it, that's kinda the whole point.
I'm sympathetic to TOTH making it a problem, but that perk's getting reworked next patch, so like I said: worst case scenario, swap off Exhaustion until then.
Gotta say, most unexpected crashout I’ve ever seen. Bros feeling so griefed by a perk that can be turned off. I’m a 50/50 player before he goes on his “killer main bias” tangent.
Hexes should be strong because they can be turned off and one person running counterforce is enough to invalidate an entire build.
Breathe bro, it’s going to be okay.
Not gonna lie. Vigil was never a problem in my games. I actually do what you suggest…Catch the survivor. Im sorry but you respond to everyone crying about this perk then when someone actually gives you the simple counter to it. AKA break the totem, you go straight to "Must be a killer main saying skill issue". Honestly sure ill bite. if you can't play the game and break a hex totem then yeah MASSIVE skill issue.
Don't get why anyone can complaint about a hex totem that can literally be removed from that game. Sure TOTH can make it hard to clense but thats the same for every hex in the game.
I also find it laughable that you said
" "Just break the totem" when in Solo Queue totems go the whole match without even being found"
If you have every played a game as killer with a hex totem and run lethal pursuer you will see that in i would say 70% of your games 1 survivor spawns basicly on top of the totem lol. If you can't find totems then that really is a you problem because unless you have less than 200 ish hours in the game its really not difficult to learn totem spawns.
Bottom line. If your going against this hex perk constantly then just don't run exhaustion perks run something different. The killers you mention who have high mobility it doesn't matter if you have your extra haste or not its not going to make much difference and it for sure isn't going to be the difference between a win or lose.
Vigil is relevant because it shows a pretty obvious disregard for survivor in my opinion, Vigil is being nerfed extremely hard and even so much that it effects exhaustion less than it did before. at the same time there's another hex totem that totally destroys mainstay distance perks like SB, Lithe, and Balanced.
Effectively this perk, plus BHVRs Vigil Nerf is gutting every exhaustion perk in every match where its active. it's not a matter of "It won't be in every match" yeah no kidding, but you think the already bad game experience against killers you have to hold W against like artist and knight, or already extremely easy to play movement killers like the Ghoul is going to feel anything less than TERRIBLE when this perk is around? the counterplay to the knight is to make distance with something like lithe and outlast the guard as picking the banner is not often viable, now no distance. the counterplay against artist is to hold W, against myers its often hold W to a stronger area… that's what exhaustion haste perks are for specifically… "oh shoot, holding W is the best viable counterplay for me? Sick i'll just negate all haste perks that are used to make distance. already strong killers are going to disproportionately benefit from this much more than M1 killers are, that's a recurring problem of its own…
already a ton of saves against camping and tunneling killers are bad in solo queue, usually it ends up with a hook trade one way or another. its extremely common for killers to camp and tunnel at 5 as well, and if you're relying on an exhaustion perk to get past a proxy camping killer while they are distracted they get a notification you tried and you also get no distance and it goes from maybe a hook trade to definitely a hook trade, that's stronger value than Blood Favor, which is an insanely strong hex. and, mind you… Saving a camped, tunneled person from a high mobility killer, or even a damn bubba requires a whole team. nobody is cleansing that totem because they are trying to get their teammate off of a hook.
There are different Tiers of Hex totems, some that are powerful but more in a manageable and not as upfront threatening way (Ruin), some that suck apart from other perks or specific builds (Shoutout Huntress Lullaby), and some that are extremely dangerous and have to be dealt with right way and encourage a "Drop what you're doing and get rid of the totem attitude" (Devour Hope, Blood Favor) as we all know hex totems are RNG, that means that RNG can be very good as well.
Particularly problematic is the fact that this perk is not able to be cleansed until after someone is hooked. this is just digging the survivor experience further into a hole, it falls into a bit of its own category too as a hex that outright punishes you for using a perk you brought. like I said, balanced landing actually gets you no distance at all.
perk doesn't appear until after someone is hooked. using counterforce to break dull totems preemptively is griefing your own team, Devour Hope can be turned off, it doesn't make it any less of an S tier perk against most people, why run devour hope on myers when you already have a dash + Pallet break + Exposed + survivors cannot make distance anymore? The same logic was just used on vigil, its too strong when synergizing with other things, its too generalized, but its going to be overlooked for a perk that has the same generalized capabilities?
everyone's response has been to treat this perk like its the standalone objective. "its not that big of a deal just break it" that's, from the outset a bias, I didn't say that just for the sake of calling someone a killer main. Solo queue revolves around dealing with tunnels, more tools to that end feel bad to deal with, you get ONE use of a distance making perk most of the time if you are tunneled off of hook and its meaningless if they have Under Your Thumb, that's all it takes, you drop one pallet, get no distance, back on second hook and your team is forced off of gens to come help you, game's getting snowballed, totem is not a priority at that point.
totem doesn't spawn at the start of a trial.
The sticking point for me here is that I don't see how Under Your Thumb contributes to any of these things specifically because it's a hex, and it's not a weird or funky hex that relights or targets specific survivors or anything.
It's just a hex, and it'll be the same as other strong hexes; it might mess you up in one or two chases, but once you know it's in play, it can be removed. Same as something like Blood Favour or Devour Hope, it might be obnoxious in full totem defence builds, but that's not any different to the current staples and those builds are getting a key component dismantled (at least hopefully) next patch.
This is kind of the ideal perk to be strong, as far as I'm concerned. It's strong, but only because it counters the current meta, and it's also strong in ways that can be worked around or negated entirely depending on your loadout choices and gameplay.
If multiple survivors across the board choose off-meta tools to respond to seeing Under Your Thumb often, especially the ones that are useful when the killer doesn't have this perk, that's a good thing. That broadens the meta and brings in more variety.
its different because one effects survivors movement and perk choices directly, not as the result of a killers power but as a result of a perk. and when paired with the others makes it unreasonable. this post wouldnt be made if it was decreasing haste by 15%, that's still strong. 35% basically eliminates the effect of again, the most mainstay and common survivor perks especially in the current gamestate. its not like its a niche counter to a perk you don't see often… when I do play killer I see Lithe specifically all the time, if I am playing Leatherface, as I do and I have bamboozle and Under Your Thumb you are dying at shack and going into the basement and your game is over because you aren't making distance with lithe and if you don't have lithe and you are just looping the shack I will just bamboozle it and get you anyway… and if we're being realistic Leatherface SUCKS compared to high tiered killer, I just play him to meme around on. no distance against Kaneki and Myers is outright terrible, sure blood favor is strong and it blocks pallets, it doesn't physically change my survivors ability to move around. filler pallets are useless against mobility killers anyway, so you use an exhaustion perk. but, if they have both then you're just outright dead, no distance no pallet, nothing…time to get camped and tunneled…
Exhaustion perks being mainstay perks is why I say it could be healthy for the overall meta.
A perk like this being strong puts pressure on survivors to potentially change their builds without actually needing to nerf any of the popular perks or classes of perks. If you run a lot of Exhaustion perks, this perk being strong and popular could push you towards considering other kinds of chase perks, or maybe shifting to a different playstyle entirely.
Or, if you really like your Exhaustion perks and just want to keep using them, then the pressure might push you to sub out one of your other perks and replace it with something like Detective's Hunch to find totems, or Counterforce to cleanse them faster, or Overzealous to benefit more from the cleanse, etcetera.
Introducing strong perks like this is a healthier and more organic way of slowly changing the meta than just doing a full meta shakeup patch and nerfing everything. Because this perk can be dealt with from so many angles, it's probably pretty good for the game that it's strong.
The way to change an already relatively narrow survivor meta is not to make the meta unviable its to make the other survivor perks more usable and more consistent. The Judgement herself outright destroys a ton of perk value and even game interaction like flashlight saves, it can't be both ways so on one end, people are going to be taking those things out of their builds, and on the other hand… ironically among the best perks to counter judgement, movement perks… are being flatlined by a totem which judgement can repeatedly interrupt and other killers who are more oppressive in chase can use to 100% ensure downs. awesome.
That's exactly what this is doing, though.
Exhaustion perks aren't being removed or weakened, they are exactly as strong in their own right as they were, minus SB's nerf this patch of course.
However, if this perk gets popular, when equipping an Exhaustion perk you may pause and consider how you want to account for that.
No matter what decision is made (outside of just ignoring UYT existing, I guess) it will add more variety. Non-Exhaustion chase perks look better in comparison, and totem-related perks also look better in comparison.
The survivor meta is currently fairly narrow (though not nearly as bad as it used to be) primarily because a lot of the best stuff doesn't really get challenged very easily, not because most other tools are flat out non-viable. Additions like this could, in theory, do more for diversifying the meta than a handful of small buffs could.
you're arguing Variety by removal of Viability. Exhaustion perks are specifically used right now because of how overbearing the killer meta is, and there is very little that isn't niche that is consistently viable for especially solo queue.
Variety needs to be brought about by Increasing the variety of Viability, not by making things unviable to the point where the choice doesn't matter.
New perk counters a perk I have been using for 10 years. NERF IT REEEEEEEE
You have your answer. Break the totem.
That's definitely wrong, there's a huge swath of completely viable perks that are overlooked for a variety of different reasons.
You don't actually need Exhaustion perks, strictly speaking, they're just very useful and aren't really challenged by very much. You could, right now, opt to use all kinds of different perks and builds for the same purpose, similar purposes, or completely different playstyles altogether, there just isn't much pushing any given player to do that.
Also, again, this is really important, Under Your Thumb isn't making Exhaustion perks non-viable, that really matters here.
as an old console player this used to be basekit so it doesn't bother me.
okay man we'll just ignore the fact that even without a slowdown that high mobility killers barely lose distance on you I guess. They are the "challenge" to something that needs to be countered. now they are providing a counter to a counter against already strong killers.
If you mean in the sense that Under Your Thumb won't be in every game then yeah, you're right. but that's not a good counterargument. this is, again, why I brought up vigil. "nerfed because too consistent of a counter against too many status effects" survivor doesn't have very many negative effects that they cause for the killer, but they do have a very consistent couple of status effects, Haste is the top among them. UYT will do the exact same thing to survivor gameplay that Vigil does to negative status effects except it is stronger because it isn't reducing the timers it's reducing the actual effect. "It can be broken" okay and old Circle of Healing could be exploited and Snuffed. it is punishing survivors for using their kits well. high tier killers have the benefit of the pallet density update being relatively meaningless already, as well as the all too common gens around relative deadzones, Exhaustion Haste perks are the counterplay to this.
And, the sidepoint still is that this game continues to add things that do not feel like being beaten by skill on the survivor end but rather being forced to lose by playing the right way, we are supposed to evade the killer, we bring perks to better do that, we have a gameplan to escape or prolong a chase in an optimal point of the map where something like Balanced Landing shines, we make it all the way there by playing well and then get killed not because the killer is better or outplays us with power but because we're forced to have almost no perk value from an external source. Perks and Powers should not have this effect, though that is a different conversation.
It isn't going to make Exhaustion perks non-viable because it's a hex and you can account for that.
Either by going in without adjustments and cleansing it after it lights, or if you want to be safer about it, bringing anti-totem perks. Exhaustion perks are still completely viable in matches without this perk and in matches with it, there's just some risk to the latter if you don't prepare for it.
All this perk should really do is prompt you to think about your build a little more at most, and that's only if it properly gets popular.
I'm still in awe this is being discussed. And I still don't understand Vigil being brought into this. Is this just a 'they are nerfing things I like and therefor I will rage about new things they made' post, or?
Just… just break the totem. It ain't that deep. You don't even need to bring a perk to find the totem, totem placement is notoriously bad. Just look for the totem and break it. You're done. You have literally spent more time on this post than you will spend on the next year breaking the totem in combined break time.
Jesterkind has been a god-send of generosity and benevolence on this topic. I had to stop responding to avoid being sassy. This really isn't a problem.