Kebek
Kebek
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And what am I supposed to see here ? Survivors are constantly out of position, stay on gens until he's right behind them, do dumb plays and don't know the layout of the map, constanlty play into nemesis, do meme worthy plays (claudette) and aren't even close to skill level of Tru3.
It took them almost 4 min to do first gen on midwitch, those all are definitely not sgins of good survivors. And even with ruin up all game and all of their horrible horrible plays they manage to do 3 gens.
They are prime example of bad players polluting high ranks. I'm not saying that they play like that all the time but this match they sucked and it's not proving anything in regards to LF's viability.
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It's hard to take his claims of underrated killers seriously when survivors he faces aren't doing proper strategies to counter said underrated killers. Whenever he states that some killer is kinda bad one of his arguments is usually that there are many ways to counter that killer's power but then he uses different killer (that is considered bad) and states that he's underrated while stomping survivors who don't know how to properly counter his playstyle.
Defeating survivors that he considers "good" doesn't mean that they are actually good and know proper strategies against "underrated killers" he plays at the time. We all stomp mediocre survivors that are polluting high ranks but when it comes to ranking how good killer is we base those claims of facing good survivors who know the game well.
If he wants to prove viability of these underrated killers even a little bit he needs to face optimal players who play on the same skill level as he does. You can't really be calling out killers viability when you don't face players as good as you are.
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Shrink it a bit and make few of the most busted loops more mindgameable. If that doesn't fix it, we can go further with changes.
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@CashelP14 I know, opinions differ so much with tier lists based on personal experiences. Having many points of view is a good thing for thinking out of our comfort zones.
DS can snowball if survivors swarm him then he can punish them really hard pretty fast but if they run away it can be tough yeah. His map pressure comes mainly from getting short chases so you need to be on top the whole match otherwise losing becomes pretty real pretty fast but perk help with that a lot. DH is strong but with how fast his ADS is survivors need to predict the shots before they happen or just when they're about to reach safe spot. It's still not countering him as hard as many other killers, I would dare say it actually hurts him less them most of the killer roster.
People won't ever make a collective decision on a tier list. Everyone plays differently and has different experiences. Discussing about them is still quite fun even when I can disagree about some choices made.
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@Zane said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1387424#Comment_1387424
The perk really doesn't make the kill use any skill or learn from anything its just so you get a kill, unlike other second chance perks
I also wouldn't call perks rewarding unsafe unhooks or hitting a skillcheck after getting caught skillful but everyone has different opinion on what is skillful. In my opinion, quite a few of these perks could use some additional changes on both sides.
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It's a second chance perk that can turn the game around. Ofc people will use it, just like survivors use theirs.
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My fav killer to face will always be nurse. Pity that after her "rework" she's became so hard to find. Nobody wants to play the mess they made of her unless they were already gods with her before.
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@CashelP14 None of that really excues calling DS worse then any killers put higher then him. Since I main him yes I know quite a bit about him and play him extensively against good players at rank 1 since he came out. I can assure you he's (when played well ofc) at least very high B tier and possibly up to mid A tier at least from my experience playing him for months at red ranks.
Also playing badly is part of getting outplayed. If I played perfectly each match then I would have 100% killer/escape rate since I would never do any mistake in any aspect of the game which includes mindgaming opponents. DS counters half the loops in the game and he's still got options against the other half. Not many killers can get so many hits over as many loops as he can.
Ofc you're entiteled to your opinion but I felt like sharing my view when you've ranked him as low as you did.
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Deathslinger in C tier makes me laugh as DS main. I know it's just an opinion but you must have seen or you are a really bad DS player if you rank him so low.
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@supersonic853 said:
140%x5=700% more bp. I mean...i dont see why not but we might break the bp economy.
Just for 1 anniversary each year. No biggie
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Take it like this, if killlers had to for example 4k to earn it then all killers would use the most OP builds to ensure killing all 4 and ofc slug for the 4k every match. I think devs made a smart choice with these conditions.
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@Parallax said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1379408#Comment_1379408
There's an achievement for tombstoning everyone in a match, so I wouldn't hide in a locker to keep them from getting it.
I don't care about achievements of other, I want to survive so I'll counter it when I feel I'm about to get tombstoned. Achievements are supposed to be achievements so they should work for them. (ofc I'm not the kind of person who would use locker for example during EGC when killer is literally infront of the locker and I don't have any chance to survive, it's legit to do that but I can understand the frustration of such plays)
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Counter it with lockers, easy.
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Only reason why would anyone wear Legacy is because it's rare. If everyone had it nobody would use it since it isn't even half as nice as other available skins and you can get spotted across the map with it. Also going back to the horrible bloodwebs only for mediocre looking cosmetic is bad idea.
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From general survivor pov, whatever you do unless you completely ignore anyone who got hooked within last 1-2min you're probably gonna be called a tunneler eventually. You can't reach perfect balance when there are so many entiteled players who don't have any idea what is and what isn't tunneling and are just salty cause they're losing.
Best way to go about it is do whatever you feel like doing. If you think you have enough pressure you can go easy and ignore someone freshly unhooked running at ya even when it's dumb play. But if they're giving you hard time then you're in no way obligated to give them fair/easy game. Do what makes you enjoy the game, whatever it is (within official rules ofc).
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@xEa said:
To all of you killers who tunnel the survivor who bring keys to their matches. Did you know that survivors tend to really like getting chased by the killer?
As long as you can handle it. Don't be too suprised if you die on your first hook thou.
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Gen rushing is a term for doing gens efficiently/fast which killers don't like due to it causing their games to be very short (little to no chases, hooks, points etc) so they complain about it. Same goes for killer strategies that make survivor games short and unfun (tunneling/camping). Both are legitimate ways to play the game so yes genrushing exists as much as tunneling/camping.
Neither can be fully prevented or punished since both are part of the most optimal way to win as long as you use them correctly. Devs continually adjust the game to discourage these strategies in hope of making matches that have healthy length for all players. Unfortunately DBD can never be fully free of them due to many random factors in each match and disparities in player's skill levels.
You can chose to play unoptimally and do random stuff - walking around, chests/totems, annoying the killer, etc but if you decide to rush gens (generally matches that last less then 10min can be considered as rushed games by actions of either side be it gens or tunneling/camping) no one can blame you for doing your best to win.
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@Valeficent said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1375531#Comment_1375531
Not trying to sound like one those people who corrects other to look or sound Smart, but PH leaves trenches, not lava :3
I'm fully aware but devs decided to call SH chapter "lava chapter" internally and I like the sound of it so I just call his trenches lava 😉
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@Blueberry said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1375502#Comment_1375502
"I think his ranged attack is fine as it is. For an ability bypassing all obstacles in the way (besides gaps) it needs to have heafty CD otherwise he would need reduction in MM to 110%."
It bypasses all obstacles because it's extremely easy to dodge. It doesn't need a hefty could down because of that reason.
"Also it shouldn't apply Torment since becoming tormented should stay as willing decision by survivors, you are either confident in looping him and thus you ignore his lava and don't care about loss of hook perks you use or you suck at looping and decide to evade lava even at cost of getting downed just so you can use your hook perks."
Whether he gets to use his power or not should be up to the survivors? Lol no. That is terrible design. Attaching Torment to his ranged attack only matters if the survivors fails to dodge it.
"I think devs nailed the balance of PH and nothing at all should change. He's a great 115% killer with well balanced ability."
I think he's quite weak and doesn't have much of a chance against "good" rank 1 survivors.
It's not exactly easy to dodge as it is mindgameable, if you predict when & where survivor attempts to evade it you can make them walk into it. If it's aimed directly on you by the center it will hit you unless you're already dodging so predicting where he's using it is essencial to dodging. People like to say that some abilities are easy to dodge when it really boils down to which side made better prediction.
Actually, it's a great design because if they don't want to get tormented ever basically means that for that specific survior your lava actually does damage (since they'll rather take damage from you then getting tormented) like your ranged attack would do. They won't step into it even if it meant getting downed = lava's effect is so dangerous for them that they'll get downed insted of taking torment, in other words lava gives you extremely free hits thus even if it doesn't give you torment on them, it has (debatebly) even stronger effect. That's a great design imao. Also survivor's complains about cages disabling their perks are invalid since they made a decison to step into lava, no one forced them, if they want their perks they need to evade lava at any cost and if they don't care, then they get punished via not having hook perks.
People keep on saying that. I've been hearing that about Deathslinger since he was released how unviable he is, yet I'm doing extemely well with him on rank 1 and if I play really well I can beat even the super sweaty SWF death squads. PH's power has pretty high potencial just like DS so calling him weak without mastering his ability is like calling nurse weak because most players can't do consistent great blinks.
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@Blueberry said:
I honestly am not seeing any of this "tunneling" from cages everyone else is. This makes me think it's players playing badly and calling it tunneling when it's not. The killer has to literally cross the entire map before a teammate saves.
That said, remove the auras and it doesn't really change much. PH still needs the recovery time on his ranged attack lowered and to apply Torment to its hits to reward good plays. Currently using the ranged attack in most cases just doesn't feel worth and all you really do is fake it, which isn't fun.
I think his ranged attack is fine as it is. For an ability bypassing all obstacles in the way (besides gaps) it needs to have heafty CD otherwise he would need reduction in MM to 110%.
Also it shouldn't apply Torment since becoming tormented should stay as willing decision by survivors, you are either confident in looping him and thus you ignore his lava and don't care about loss of hook perks you use or you suck at looping and decide to evade lava even at cost of getting downed just so you can use your hook perks.
I think devs nailed the balance of PH and nothing at all should change. He's a great 115% killer with well balanced ability.
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@Artemis_LH said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1373650#Comment_1373650
Yup, because it takes so long to travel across the new, smaller maps.
Geez, like only 2-3 maps had slight size reduction and everyone keeps on mentioning it like some massive nerf that completely changed DBD's problem with map pressure and made all maps easy to traverse as all killers.
Map reworks focused on removing some of the god loops not reducing size of all maps so yeah it still takes a while to cross maps, long enough to give a fair window for an unhook. If survivors keep on sitting on gens and don't give saves high enough priority then killers are going to defend them and punish survivors for ignoring their hooked teammates.
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Or survivors could just reach the cage first and then leave before killer has to cross entire map. This feels like asking for even more free unhooks then the cages already are and as you said, the spawns are predictable so it would in the end only be annoying bad QoL change which does nothing else then annoys killers.
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Imao it's fine, I've been doing on it just fine. HF is much much worse still.
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It could definitely use some buffs to anti-tunneling aspects and nerfs to do a dumb/dangerous play (if you didn't use DS) and be protected by DS aspect.
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I dislike from all of the perks that can give second chances to survivors only DS. It's single perk that drastically changes playstyle of all killers by just it's existence. You have to respect the possibility of them having it and play around it (just like with NOED wich also need rework), that in itself is a massive advantage not even counting the effect itself.
The effect is also pretty dumb supporting literally running into killer and doing unsafe unhooks creating scenarios where both hooked and unhooked survivor has DS and you can't punish neither of them for doing dumb plays. And if you by any means decide to counter it by slugging them, they just hop into a locker forcing to stand there for 1min (game losing) or just let them go for free / take their DS and lose most of your pressure anyway.
Honestly, I don't want it to be just nerfed, I want it to be nerfed and buffed at the same time. Nerf the dumb aspects of it - no notification of who uses it, working on gens / unhooks, forcing it with lockers etc and buff the anti-tunneling aspects of it - longer duration while slugged / chased, bonus stealth effect after triggering DS (to give you good chance to LOSE the tunneling killer - can't tunnel you anymore), possibly even 2 uses (ofc with many conditions unlike now) and stuff like that.
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Not really bad with hearing but I used to play DBD without headphones so I never relied on hearing survivors pretty much at all. You can do just fine by knowing general survivor routeing, scratchmarks/bloodpools and by simply following them based on visuals.
Ofc after I started using headphones I realised how usefull can hearing survivors actually be. It's a great bonus, not mandatory but everyone who doesn't use them is missing out on quite a bit of fun and skillful gameplay unfortunately.
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"Nerf everything that's boring, in other words, everything that makes me lose."
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Nah we need more, indoors maps are so rare compared to outdoors maps. Even if they were just half indoors that would still be good.
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As usual, the teacher is a complete clown.
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Your warning will very likely have exactly opposite effect, more players will abuse it when they learn about it. That's most likely why it got deleated on steam as you said.
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@ThisGuuy83 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1368215#Comment_1368215
Because noed is fine the way it is.
Debatable
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@tixerp said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1368298#Comment_1368298
I know you can't sabo anymore, that's why I initially said "could", as in past tense. Was just doubling down on it's purpose.
I'm not saying he has a literal stratosphere of abilities with his traps, the outcomes could just always be different, therefore there is a lot of possibilities and replayability. It's always a spice up every other game as long as the Trapper themselves is interesting. With something like Spirit though, once you've seen a few, you've really seen them all.
And flashlighting/DH'ing an attack isn't the same because that has little relation to a killers power. There's little difference between DH'ing a Trapper M1, than DH'ing a PH ranged attack. The only result in the end, is you gained distance in a chase, specifically, more distance in PH's case. DH'ing through a trap, depending on it's placement can mean a lot more than just "Did you hit or not him".
Possibilites are there but as I said they are unused. Trappers trap loops, that's what they do, I haven't seen almost any trappers since 2016 that would do traps in random places and even far far less trappers that actually got a random trap to work. Nothing that special about it, many even hate trapper for having uninteractive power since unless you have eagle sight you can't see a trap in the grass mid-chase so many just loop the trapper hoping he didn't have time to place trap in loops they go for.
Distance gained is what usually gives a chance to break off the chase so it's actually pretty huge if done correctly. DHing through traps work mainly on very trappers who would walk into it otherwise good trapper will just cut the closest route around it not giving survivor chase to reach another tile forcing them towards that trap again or even picking it up which happens quite frequently as well. And if it works as you stated what you gain is once again distance used to break off the chase, same thing as vs PH.
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@HamdaN said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1367689#Comment_1367689
deathslingers power is absolutely unskillful wym..??? the instant quick scope with a projectile that fast leaves literally no possible reaction time for counterplay. it also goes through holes in walls which is straight bogus. i think YOURE the one who hasnt vs’d them at all
Couterplay to DS requires you to think when he'll shoot not wait & react to him shooting. Thinking's hard when most fo the time you can just react to killer in plain sight and loop them for free since you see them.
Also if it's as unskillful as you say then play and post a few rounds of you playing DS, I'd love to see how easy it's going ot be for you if he doesn't require skill to play.
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@Poweas said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1368304#Comment_1368304
No, he was actually quite good lol. He demolished my teammates. The only reason he couldn't catch me was because I played it safe and predicted him fairly well. Funny story, he 4k'd us at the end anyways.
Oh, good job on reading him then. Many survivor just loop DS like any casual killer which is straight path on the hook.
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@Poweas said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1368248#Comment_1368248
Honestly, I did it instinctively to the one I faced. He was chasing me for a good chunk of the match, so I started to take it more lightly.
Poor guy, probably still learning the ropes or just having a bad day with aiming. I guess he didn't do well if he chased someone for a long while ?
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@tixerp You can't sabo beartraps since 3.6.0.
3.6.0 | Chains of Hate
- Survivors will no longer be able to sabotage a Bear Trap with a Toolbox or the Perk Saboteur.
Every other chase interaction with PH and trapper power wise is the same as what you metioned first. You can blind or DH etc to make PH miss and lose time giving you a chance to break the chase as much as you can DH through trap or blind trapper to step in it.
It feels to me like you're giving Evan more credit then he deserves. Trap map knowledge doesn't make him the most unique/deep killer with best designed power with infinite possibilities for unorthodox plays.
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You can always play killer and not tunnel or camp. Spread the fun you never had.
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@Poweas said:
Omg you might've faced me before XD. I was the Kate in the white T shirt on that Groaning Storehouse map lol. It's just for fun.
I don't think so, probably. I play a looot of Deathslinger and it's been happening since PH's release. I just wonder what got into everyone all of the sudden, I never once seen it in the insane amounts of games I played with him until now.
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1368172#Comment_1368172
Yeah I can see that angle. its just requiring hooks is tough because one of the uses for NoED is to help against gen rush, which means you're not going to get many hooks.
True but that still makes NOED bandaid fix to balance of gens. Hopefully introduction of new early game in upcoming DBD year will help with the gen speeds or any other blance issues.
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You can still do totems to counter NOED even in 2 of my ideas. Also reading before posting is a good advice I heard.
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1368098#Comment_1368098
Put the block on a timer then. You don't need to cleanse all 5, you can cleanse the 1 after it activates. And yeah that might be true some games, but those are more the exception than the rule. I'm not saying we should make camping stronger, but not doing a change better for everyone because a few bad apples will mess it up is not the stance to take. People will always abuse the game, that's just how it goes.
That's why I don't suggest these reworks to fix that specific issue, as I said, fixing all that is a bonus of it. I find NOED pretty plain so I though if some fun new interactions to have longer and more fun endgame.
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@MrPenguin said:
If I had to pick from these I would pick the 3rd one but make both exits blocked.
But NoED is fine where it stands, there are much more pressing things that need attention such as second chance perks and map balance/gen balance and on the killer side things like Spirit and such. Not to mention the many many bugs that need addressing. I'm all for making the perk stronger but not so annoying, but it is not high priority.
On a second note, NoED can't be abused afaik. Its a very hit or miss perk that survivors kinda have to play into for it to get much value, not to mention the counters it has. You give up a perk all game for the possibility of a very short strong effect at the end. Don't really see the abuse potential here.
Third option is also my fav but bloking both gates would create holding the game scenario - hex activates and killer camps it = no one can end the match unless killer decides to stop camping the totem.
I know, other issues are far bigger but I recently though about possible NOED reworks so I shared a piece of my mind, maybe inspiring anyone who reads for the future.
Abuse is unfortunately for survivors there. You never had a match where LF facecamps first caught survivor to death and then does the same for the second one and so on ? Survivors have to rush gens and if they waste any time checking what's actually happeing or anyrhing besides gens they are getting closer to beiing facecamped themselfs. Once killer kills even 1 survivor, dowing the rest with NOED + bitter murmur becomes very reaslistic option or he just gets another free facecamp. There isn't really time to cleanse 5 totems when killer does this tactic unless you're in 4 man SWF. I've done it a few times and it's really nasty way to play.
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@tixerp Man, sabotaging traps is no longer possible and overall that's like saying that counterplay to nurse is to use flashlight to cancel her blinks. Can it happen ? Yes. Can you do it reliably for normal gameplay ? No. You also use DH through PH's power or blind him to miss it, see interactions are there. Oddball for PH is to randomly lay down your "lava" for survivor to randomly walk into it, another interaction just like trapper.
Trapper just like every other killer is you trap them or you don't. It's honestly the same thing done differently just like all killers.
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@elvangulley said:
Sure when survivors perks require any skill at all instead of rewarding you for failing.
And they should be reworked as well, at least the most opressive of them.
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@MiniPisa said:
I'm sorry, but noed doesn't need a change.
Can totally bad killers use it and get kills? Yes. Can the survivors stop this from even happening? Also yes. 100% balanced as is
I don't dislike NOED per say, I just think that pure MM speed bonus + exposed on everyone is pretty boring. I'd love to see some new unique effects for it.
Also if it helps with the issue of for example LF facemaping survivor and the finishing another 1 or more with NOED (which I can understand why survivor consider cheap and want it reworked) is a bonus that would improve DBD's health.
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@tixerp said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1367837#Comment_1367837
PH, Demo, and Spirit AREN’T that deep, is my point. They just have a bunch of different utilities to make them FEEL complex, when in reality their gameplay is shallow and easy.
That “level of depth” with PH where you hit someone through a wall is a perfect example of “immediacy of thought and not profoundness of thought”.
That is intentionally how you’re supposed to use the power. That’s its main purpose. So it might FEEL like a big brain skill shot, when in reality its a little shallow compared to the tons of mindgames and strategies given to you with beartraps. Not very deep if it’s not the player actively improvising and thinking outside the box. Not that you can’t at all with PH, mind you.
Also to mention the other killers like you said, Oni, nu Doc, nu Freddy. Freddy’s change is something else relevant. Old Freddy, I can understand why people hated, but it’s sad to see it go because he was one of the most creative killers we’ve ever seen in a while. The problem is you couldn’t play him like every other killer, and people couldn’t try to adapt and create new strategy. If you still don’t get what I mean, watch Otzdarva’s video titled “RIP Old Freddy”. He mentions exactly what I’m talking about, and summarizes it better than I can.
What exactly do you even imagine in deep gameplay ? Like trapper sure needs to know where to place traps but that's it. Once you know the good spots by either playing him for a bit or watching other players play him, then what. You trap a good spot in a place you want to defend and survivor either steps in it because you chased them there or they evade it if they know about it thus it's used for zoning just like PH, Demo etc use their power. Bear traps aren't as deep as you say at all, you either know good spots or you don't. What mindgame is there in knowing the spot or know, survivor either saw you or didn't, that's not a mindgame.
Old Freddy sure was unique which wasn't necessary good for the game. Overall he was about juggling survivors and knowing timing of his transition. He also held the crown of beiiing impossible to juke, extremely unfun and unskillful power mind you. You can lose chase (win it in other words) against every killer in the game besides old freddy. No matter what strategy you used, whenver you would get away his wallhacks would just find you for him. Nobody liked the forced loop fiesta he was forcing everyone to do. He had annoying RNG based stall and wallhacks, not a recipe for fun match.
I probably won't be able to see why you think new killers are lacking "profoundness of thought” compared to old ones. To me they seem well designed with right amout of depth and strategy.
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@tixerp What new killers with complex powers are you talking about ? PH and Demo are only recent killer with a more deep power. Last complex power we got besides those 2 was Spirit and that was ages ago and it still isn't even that deep.
Also killers like trapper take map knowledge since they are trapping killer, that's their whole shtick. They have many options but only few are actually used. Nobody is going waste time by trapping obvious places and even in the good spots they still completely rely on survivors walking into them and not rushing them to death since set-up time for them can be horrendous.
Ofc players want strong killers that are skillful to use but that's not all we want. We want diversity of playstyles which also means killers for more casual players and nobody wants to play crap killers so making them weak would just cause them never getting used. If you consider PH lacking depth then you're probably not thinking hard enough when you play him. He's really fun and engaging when you outplay survivor by perfectly predicting where they will go through walls without even seeing them (just like nurse btw). PH is another great addition to killer roster, survivors just complain since he's another good killer that can catch them and isn't free loopfest like some of the old killers. He has a lot of depth to him, it just seems like you don't see it.
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Ever though that not all people want to fry their brain when playing killer ? What's wrong with more casual powers that are strong. None of the "unskilled" powers you named are as fast at downing as those that require more skill to be used. Also I can't belive you called powers of Demo, Doc or Deathslinger unskilled. It feels like you never played them, I can understand Freddy but DS or Demo ? Seriously, you must be the best player in DBD if you can hit all of their skillshots 100% of the time at every opportunity or you just don't know what you're even talking about.
It's not like playing survivor requires insane amount of skill, perfect timing, predictions, aiming and all that. If anything casual M1 killer are boring since you can loop them into oblivion without much thought. Killers are supposed to be intimidating, not your toy.
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If reaching 100% aim accuracy and perfect distancing and postitioning on all your shots ever made then I would agree that Deathslinger is S tier. Unfortunately we're only humans and it's not realistically possible for us to reach such level of mastery.
Even if this is probably bait (or you just have unique experinces with killers, dunno) I still think you should be putting him in middle of A tier. He's really good if played well but he's lacking in a few departments to be S tier level.
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I agree, some players easily say that PH is weak etc when very few of us actually play him really well. Once people get really good with him, he'll be fine.
When Deathslinger came out I was asking in feedback section for a few buffs to make him stronger but once I got better with him, I then saw how brokenly oppressive he would be if they actually buffed him like I suggested. It's very easy to judge killers based on first impressions and I'm happy that devs don't do that anymore.