DBDVulture
DBDVulture
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@Tostapane said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384817#Comment_3384817
Without realizing that you have various perks such as resilience for example that will almost deny entirely the effectiviness of that perk (not to mention that you need to injure EVERYONE to gain the full effect from it, forcing you to waste time to seaching everyone and hitting them, in the meantime gens will still fly...). Please, thanato is a dead perk that it could barely work only with plague and sometimes legion (good survivors will spread while doing generators, making your FF only a tool for better mobility and for tracking the other survivors if they are in close proximity)... the new meta (always has been tho, but it will be even more common than now) will be tunneling the 1st survivor that you'll see from the beginnning (in that way you don'y have to deal with possible dead hard in game), hit and run tactics aren't viable in high mmr because people will rush gens even when injured (what's the problem, after all adrenaline will heal you completely once all gens are done)
And what happens when everyone starts running Sloppy+Terminus?
DBD is going to remain a "weaponized" mess at high MMR. Gens will fly and the camping/tunneling will get somehow worse.
You are right though that Than is a dead perk. It does basically nothing unless everyone is hurt and that immediately forces one player to make sure they aren't hurt to ruin your bonus - while everyone else just rushes generators.
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3385100#Comment_3385100
The reason it devolved into this deplorable state, is because they needlessly nerfed earned regression (pop) because of popularity, while buffing unearned regression (CoB/OC), and nerfing Self-Care before daring to touch their baby CoH. CoH was a problem since it was released, and if anything it should have always been a hybrid of the altruism bonus only with aura reveal, and Self-Care at 35%. That way, people would know it is better to heal each other, instead of guitar soloing adjacent to one another like we see on live.
That last part you are talking about would be exacerbated by an altruism heal change, as only a SWF on comms could reasonably coordinate heals in such a meta. More SWFs will dominate killers, and soloq will suffer even more. Nothing about increasing hook times would threaten 'making injuries have value' for normal gameplay. It would only nerf early onset camping.
(Also if you are a Clown unable to get a hit on The Game, unironically skill dif git gud. You don't need to be a manifesto Clown to throw both types of bottles. Also non-manifesto Clowns know enough to bring Brutal Strength anyways. To be fair Clown is probably my 2nd most played killer behind Ghostie, so take that with a grain of salt. Any M1 killer like Legion can have fair complaints on that map, but not anyone with a slowing or damaging [to the point of downing] power.)
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3385145#Comment_3385145
Anyone who has played both Killer and soloq surv for at least an hour knows the 10s borrowed time is a joke (outside of endgame), as all that tests is a killers capacity to count into the double digits. If you went down in the first place it was because the resources of the area were used up, making where you get hooked a deadzone, making any killer wanting to tunnel just needing to wait 10s before plopping the survivor back on hook. It also had the consequence of unintentionally nerfing the only anti-tunnel perk remaining, as if you can't hear them, you hit them immediately off-hook to proc the non-stacking endurance ASAP. If anti-tunnel endurance stacked, it wouldn't be a problem. Sadly people made meme videos with viewers to show off theoreticals of every endurance possible, but if that were to happen in a real match, the game would have been lost before even 3 generators popped since you lose endurance when touching gens anyways.
Also the basekit BT has nothing to do with empowered facecamping, as you don't rescue people and pump gens in that case. The issue was they added nothing to prevent the gen timers being abused by facecamping, as even Reassurance requires you to get within downed range of facecampers to use. "Oh you used Reassurance, well now I get to camp your corpse on the floor as well as the person on hook, and it takes you 30s to recover to 95% anyways, and your team is now only working on 2 gens at a time instead of 3." (Except on 2-story maps, which is a flaw with map design, not the actions and perks.)
Corrupt is a solid perk, and it already is much better used in the hands of hit and run on live ever since the drop early on downed change. The main value of corrupt though is forcing survivors to not hop on a gen on spawn, and that hasn't changed.
I think you don't know how to take advantage of NWO if you think it only provides value against 2 max living survivors. Also all balanced slowdown are win more perks, as pop was before, and SH:PR as well. (I am against the proposed method of nerfing SH:PR, because I understand camp hook recycling is the problem, and people not doing that playstyle are victims of the proposed nerf. A different method such as 2 uses per Scourge would give roughly the same average reward as current, without punishing non-campers. I primarily use SH:PR to hide my SH:Floods on most killers, and I might have to swap to SH:GoP instead.)
Deadlock not being in the shrine is an argument against P2W more than anything else. Even then, Call of Brine is equally locked behind a licensed killer, so that argument doesn't hold much weight. Also you say 'delays the inevitable' as though Killer isn't designed to win chases. If pallets weren't finite, entity blocked windows didn't exist, and bloodlust didn't exist, then you'd have a point. However since the survivor is designed to go down, it is only the problem of Fractured Cowshed/Borgo/Garden of Pain that needs to be fixed. Those maps are known outliers in terms of bad design. (Since I am a Ghostie main, Gideon's Meat Plant gives me easier wins than losses, as most people are too stupid to pay attention to stealth killers sneaking up on them. But I can understand if other M1 killers aren't a fan. Blights however can shred through the pallets so fast that it is copium for them to claim it is Survivor sided. Although, to be fair, it is so easy (for me) to win as Blight, I have to run meme perks/add-ons to give the vast majority of survivors a chance.)
-"Anyone who has played both Killer and soloq surv for at least an hour knows the 10s borrowed time is a joke"
It's a free perk slot base kit. That's not a joke. Literally nobody runs BT anymore because the base kit version is so damn good. Before Base kit BT I immediately punched anyone I was able to right after an unhook - because why not?
-"I think you don't know how to take advantage of NWO if you think it only provides value against 2 max living survivors."
The door mechanic is a joke. If you don't have NWO then the gates are 99% completed ~20 seconds after the last generator pops. NWO doesn't really let you pressure most good survivors because things like DH, Adrenaline, Deliverance and Unbreakable still exist. Post patch 3/4 will still be a huge counter to NWO. That does not even consider things like insta heals or for the PePo.
-"all balanced slowdown are win more perks, as pop was before"
Pop was an extremely healthy perk for the game. In no way was it a "win more" perk except vs top tier players who are basically playing at comp level. On average with Pop I could kick gens 6-9 times and increase the survivor objective by 2-3 minutes. I didn't need to tunnel one person out every game - but now playing the same level of people I do. When you get to the point where you're playing comp level survivors like Hens and his crew - nothing short of Nurse/Blight with best perks and addons are going to win so it becomes a moot point.
The point is that Pop was the only gen defense I used for the most part and it was preventing the gen rush to hold my 3 gen setup. When I played Trapper I used to run Pop+Agi+ Pain Res and that absolutely obliterated generator progress.
Compare old Pop to something like Dying Light. By the time you get any meaningful slowdown with DL the game is basically over. That is the absolute best example of a win more perk in DBD. I can't even begin to count how many times Pop turned a 97% generator into a 77% generator and then that gen went all the way down to zero for one reason or another.
-"Also you say 'delays the inevitable' as though Killer isn't designed to win chases"
Pig, Trapper, and most of the low tier cast are not designed to win chases. They are relics of a by gone era.
Nurse and Blight are designed to win chases. Nurse and Blight are so far removed from all the other killers that people lose sight of just how bad everything else is that people actually play at high MMR. I have a friend who plays at comp level who told me he has not seen a trapper in 2 years.
Map design is a huge problem but so is killer design. Every killer needs to have Mobility, Lethality, Anti loop, 4v1 and some degree of detection. Those are the 5 killer traits and to be honest the first three outweigh everything else by a huge margin. Detection is meh when you do everything else well. And of course tunneling happens because otherwise you can't pressure 4 players because fewer than 5 killers have 4v1 worth talking about. Oh and by the way - 2 of those killers are Nurse and Blight who have 4v1 because they can start their second chase after hooking one player before a lot of the "weak" cast members even finish their first chase.
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@irnbru said:
Why in gods name do we still have this in dbd? Everyone knows that 90% of the maps in dbd are bad but some of them are extremely bad such as garden of joy and that awful pallet heaven gideon meat plant.
Disable it until you rework all the maps to perfection.
It would be fine if the maps were mostly 9000m² because that's the floorplan size that is fair to non mobility killers that are not Nurse/Blight.
Tiles are too safe meaning you cant have fun with a killer lacking anti loop.
Maps are too big - allowing Shift W to control chases.
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@jesterkind said:
Can I ask why?
I've never really seen a good argument for it beyond a general curiosity or explicit desire to be mad at perceived mismatches, neither of which are really compelling. However, that doesn't mean no such arguments exist!
It promotes honesty. I have had many bad experiences where game companies hide things because they change things without telling us.
We would know that the devs are not doing something sneaky like "zapping" fog whisperer accounts with low MMR so they get easy games to make the game look good. I know some companies that have done far worse.
The fact that they keep MMR hidden only reinforces that they have something to hide.
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@Justa335i said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384452#Comment_3384452
I mean, shattered hope also removes the totem but its a waste of a perk unless you have pentimento AND they bring boons.
You could have stopped by saying : waste of a perk slot.
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384192#Comment_3384192
It would be more accurate to say the problem perks on both sides are being addressed (CoH+DH/OC+CoB), and an area that is innocent to all this is being caught in the crossfire.
It is also being made with 0 thought to the rest of the timers in the game. I thought when gens were getting 10s added to them, hooks would get 5s added to them, to make sure they didn't incidentally buff facecamp Bubba. Sadly those changes didn't come alongside them, and facecamping was buffed. Now all forms of camping will be buffed, as the counter before was to send 2 people for a 55-59s rescue while the last person works on gens. Now there isn't enough time to heal up and reach the hook again in time for a single stage trade. That is a problem, making a massive change without thinking even the basic scenarios through.
The gen and hook timers not being adjusted together I could excuse, as facecamp Bubba/(any other killer from the start) is an edge case scenario. Camping or even Tunneling outright is not an edge case scenario, as both are becoming all the more the norm, and those low risk strats are getting more and more rewarding with every patch. This seems like there was very little to no thought put into a change that will have massive ripples.
-"I thought when gens were getting 10s added to them, hooks would get 5s added to them, to make sure they didn't incidentally buff facecamp Bubba"
Gens went +10 seconds because everyone gets +10 seconds of free borrowed time.
@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384335#Comment_3384335
'Killers that lack skill' would be a fair claim to make, not killers as a whole. When they know they are engaging in a pseudo-hostage game by intending to kick 3-gens for an hour through their build and actions, they never had any faith in their ability to play. 3-gens are out of control because the perks give unearned regression, not because 'they don't think injuries matter'. When regression was tied to hooks, they have to play the game and win or lose from skill. Since regression is tied to kicking gens with bad perk design, we have this abomination of a state of the game that we have right now.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384453#Comment_3384453
No Way Out, Corrupt Intervention, Eruption for regression, and Deadlock all aren't having their numbers dropped. That is a fully functional full slowdown build. Jolt is for the non-oppressive Killers, and it works more than adequately. You also didn't say anything in regards to the topic, should hooks also take proportionately longer? If 2 people are injured and one gets hooked, it current leaves you 28s after they both heal each other to get the hook, but after the proposed change that will drop to 12s. So should we give 16s per hook stage, or 50% longer at 30s, for the same as percentage as injuries?
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384534#Comment_3384534
Hard agree here. 6.1.0 nerfed earned regression needlessly while buffing unearned regression, and buffed tunneling through the DS nerf needlessly. I think the best state of the game for everyone was on Mikaela's release while CoH was killswitched. To be fair though, I am fine with many of the basekit killer buffs they put in 6.1.0, since it shortened the theoretical 20s hold W to a theoretical 18s. It also mostly buffed the killers who need it. I think the Surv speed boost on hit and kick speed shouldn't have changed though, just the basic attack cooldown further from 2.7s to maybe 2.5s. That way Nurse and Blight don't get the buff benefits when hitting with their power, but the Doctor and Trapper get something.
No Way Out, Corrupt Intervention, Eruption for regression, and Deadlock all aren't having their numbers dropped.
Corrupt will be "ok" for hit and run but it was pretty heavily nerfed in the 6.1 changes. Eruption? Oh no sorry... it's dead as DH. NWO is a "win more" perk. When it works best is when there are 1-2 people left when the gens get powered.... and that's not helpful. NWO is also not optimal because it goes against efficient play - tunneling.
Deadlock is "ok" but has never been in the shrine. It delays the inevitable and right now is worse than strong gen regression combos.
The base kit perk will be Sloppy Butcher to make sure nobody heals. Terminus might become meta to prevent adrenaline. That is a far more likely pick than NWO.
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@ironblade said:
Wesker, Blight, Nurse, they all have a common theme; win the game easy mode. Hillbilly doesn't count with all the nerfs he's gotten. Meanwhile killers that have no mobility in their kit will suffer and lose more than mobility killers. 3 gens will blow up in your face. Nemesis, trapper, any m1 killer with no mobility will crumble even killers with teleportation like Sadako, Freddy or Dredge.
So, why don't you give mobility to the weaker killers? Make nemesis run, give Trapper bonus speed when picking up/setting up traps, whatever.
There are 5 killer attributes.
- Movement speed - either by teleport or by chase power (not looking at 110 vs 115)
- Anti loop strength - some killers have basically none and Nurse on the other end of the spectrum is "complete shutdown"
- Lethality in chase - is a function of the first two properties. Look at Nemesis for example - he has anti loop "if the survivors are blue". He has no movement power. Therefore his chase lethality is actually quite low. But he's miles ahead of Pig Because Nemesis can instantly break pallets.
- 4v1 potential - this is a measure of how well you can pressure multiple survivors. Pig and Doctor have this to a limited degree because you are forced to do "something else" as a side objective. Pinhead and Nemesis have this to a medium degree as there is a strong game element to hinder you. Nurse and Blight also have this ability but not in the way that you might think. Their chase powers are so good that they can already be in chase #2 with the first survivor hooked before many other killers would still be stuck on chase #1.
- Detection - this is the attribute that doesn't matter. Unfortunately it's doctor's "main thing" and as a result he is a very poor archetype. If you are an experienced killer you have good game sense and you know where people are. You don't need a "detection" power but you might bring one perk for that role to assist you during the game. One thing about this category is that movement powers also give you increased detection. How so? Well once upon a time when I bothered to play Billy from 2016-2019 it was very easy to startle people with Billy using a chainsaw sprint. If you suddenly appear 4m away from someone on a generator their only choice is to start running. Once again we have Nurse and Blight who also have this attribute.
Billy has "ok movement" thanks to the overheat. Also overall his mobility was far superior in 2016-2019 because maps were designed in a way where he could almost always zoom from point A to point B without worrying about hitting a wall - oops that's gone. He has basically no antiloop either thanks to the 2 most importnat addons getting nerfed. He has potentially strong chase lethality but in reality he doesn't because loops are safe in 2023 in a way they were not in previous versions of the game. You're almost crazy for not using Bam with him. Billy doesn't get fast downs so therefore he doesn't get 4v1 anymore. As mentioned - depending on map he might be able to detect people but that stupid "yell" before a sprint gives him away.
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@Trollinmon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384890#Comment_3384890
Gen regression is there to amplify your tempo. PR and old pop made downs regress gens and then the survivors had to save and reset which if you were getting fast down could stall the game. The healing changes are basically taking the new role in that regard. Low tier killers are should also be better in this meta if you weren't doing gen kicking.
-"Gen regression is there to amplify your tempo. PR and old pop made downs regress gens and then the survivors had to save and reset which if you were getting fast down could stall the game. "
This is true. Gen regression with good pressure on the survivors kept them from 100% doing the gens "most of the time".
- "Low tier killers are should also be better in this meta if you weren't doing gen kicking."
This is so not true- lol. There is nothing in the patch to make Pig better. Pig had natural slowdown and that fed into some level of gen regression. It's kinda like the situation with Jolt; by itself does nothing but in the current patch it adds a lot when added to other regression.
Killers that already downed players fast might be ok. Killers that have anti loop and don't have a chase end immediately when a pallet drops are likely going to be fine. Healing will take forever and survivors will play hurt. We will see a lot more punishment with slugging and camping when the gen count gets low. We will see scenarios where everyone is hurt and one player is on their last hook state. Who goes for the unhook? Nobody - because the killer knows everyone is hurt.
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@Crowman said:
So fictional characters being murderers is fine. But how dare they do anything else besides murder.
Kek- but correct.
Game is fine. I's a horror game not a puppy hug simulator.
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@Tsunami said:
I don't disapprove of the nerf but I believe It should have recompensation in the % of gen losing progression.
It shouldn't be a huge amount just a few percent from the 3%-4% additional lost progress.
The token seems fair to prevent endless activation that would bury survivors chances but since this perk got limited usage as well as a specific hook requirement few percent would be beneficial to the overall balance.
To anybody mentioning the Call of Brine situation, I believe the nerf is more than a little too harsh I just wanted to talk about this specific perk.
CoB Overcharge and Pain Res are nerfed so hard their use rate will approach 0%.
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@AnchorTea said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/S6ZP8117BBS6/my-image-282-29.png
And there you go guys! Heavily crafted and straightforward tier list of mid-tier and below killers that can win without anti-gen cheese.
Hope this helps!!
Kek of truth.
@hatchetChugger said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384632#Comment_3384632
Billy, Bubba, Knight, Deathslinger, Executioner, Nemesis, Clown, Freddy, Trickster
"Billy, Bubba, Knight, Deathslinger, Executioner, Nemesis, Clown, Freddy, Trickster"
Billy is trash and the 5 people who play him made a thread begging for the doom engravings to not get nerfed. So after this patch - Billy is out for sure for the top 10 billy mains. Everyone else was already not good enough to play Billy in high MMR.
How do I know?
legacy censor.pngKnight? You do realize he works right now because he can : regress generators. Without that he will be trash.
Deathslinger? Low tier killer that works vs bad players. Extremely poor movement with low lethality and "ok" antiloop. You can't afford to run STBFL because the punish for it is absolutely insane.
Pyramid Head is an A tier killer - check your list.
Nemesis is a functional B+ killer who has 4v1, antiloop and really only suffers from : no movement.
Clown is only viable with pinky finger which is getting nerfed this patch.
Freddy? Old Fred is about as retired as Robert Englund. Freddy was heavily reliant on old Tinkerer which is dead. He is nothing without loads of gen regression as he loses the power to teleport when the gens get done. His anti loop got gutted several patches ago.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3381693#Comment_3381693
Killers wanted survivors to have a second objective. And oddly, this update is going to minimize the one survivors had (totems). Healing isn’t an objective; survival is. And what you’ll see are more survivors pushing gens.
Pushing gens is fine. But what you will see is people either doing gens or healing. The meta will be slugging and camping with no gen defense.
If someone is on stage 2 and everyone is hurt - who makes the save?
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@Jonesnz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3381166#Comment_3381166
Even if it took longer, it's good to have higher skill ceiling killers, most games have them. Widow from Overwatch is a good example.
-"it's good to have higher skill ceiling killers"
Is it? Because Nurse and Blight have a complete kit we have to water down any perk ideas because a perk that would help trapper "not suck" would make nurse an even more powerful killer.
You can fight me on this but every killer should be no worse than 15% worse than Nurse.
Every killer in DBD should have :
- Movement powers OR long range attacks
- Strong Antiloop
- Lethal Chases
We cant have Doctor at one end of the Spectrum and Blight with numerous broken addons at the other end. I would love to see every killer that doesn't have movement/long range attacks just become a 120% movement speed base killer. Trapper, Doctor, Pig, Nemesis, etc. would all just be 120% speed and that would make their antiloop better and it would serve as movement.
Wraith and Sadako already have movement so they don't get movement but they could get some kind of buff to be better in chase. We could go down the list and fix all killers with some very simple broad strokes.
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3383616#Comment_3383616
There is still more than enough slowdown to play normally, with being mentally-afk kicking the 3 gens over and over until the survivors kill themselves rather than submit to the torture. Even if you wanted to run 4 Slowdown you can still easily run No Way Out, Corrupt Intervention, Deadlock, and Jolt/Pop.
The abusive part is being fixed. They didn't nerf Eruption's 10% or Jolt's 8% per gen, they didn't nerf the basekit regression rate, they didn't nerf the 2.5% max progress regression on kick, they didn't nerf any of the Killer's basekit in nerfing the problem perks. They are nerfing the basekit of Survivor, even the non-problem parts, so the least they could do is nerf the basekit problem part of Killer to keep things in line.
Edit: Also the important part is healing is not being nerfed to make up for the problem perks being nerfed. Nowhere in the dev update do they even pretend that is the reason. The regression perks being nerfed mainly mention their overuse being the reason for being brought down. The only healing aspect you can fairly claim is CoH being nerfed alongside them, not healing in and of itself.
-"There is still more than enough slowdown to play normally,"
What makes you say that? Base regression is 1/4th of one survivor. The two kicks perks are getting a 70-75% nerf. Pain res can be used up to 4 times per game. Nobody is going to use any of those perks.
By itself Jolt does nothing. It worked "fine" when you could combine it with another perk like Pain res to be getting something like -40% off a generator.
@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/369515/heal-time-changes-hook-time-changes
No. Making all healing speeds longer, is the compensation for all the gen regression slowdown being shorter.
The killer perk nerfs are absolutely huge, as in they nerfed those perks into the ground. This is a fair trade, as BHVR is basically destroying an entire genre of game slowdown.
-"Making all healing speeds longer, is the compensation for all the gen regression slowdown being shorter."
Unlike the OP you understand what is going on here. Healing will be the new "secondary objective". You play the game hurt and win quickly or you heal and the game lasts a long time.
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@MeanieDeeny said:
As a killer main, I feel like I should be rejoicing with the upcoming changes to COH...but the SoloQ survivor in me is disappointed.
I think that changing COH so it can only be used with a medkit really takes away from Mikaela's "power" or perks, whichever you'd like to call it by. She's a witchy girl and these boons are what makes her who she is, character wise.
I've wondered if it wouldn't be more useful to instead, keep it the same..BUT..limit the amount of times a boon can be lit and relit per match. I feel like something like this would be far more useful..IMO...thoughts anyone?
Boons broke DBD balance in a very stupid way.
- They provided infinite quick healing
- They were impossible to remove completely (other than killing the owner)
@MeanieDeeny said:
As a killer main, I feel like I should be rejoicing with the upcoming changes to COH...but the SoloQ survivor in me is disappointed.
I think that changing COH so it can only be used with a medkit really takes away from Mikaela's "power" or perks, whichever you'd like to call it by. She's a witchy girl and these boons are what makes her who she is, character wise.
I've wondered if it wouldn't be more useful to instead, keep it the same..BUT..limit the amount of times a boon can be lit and relit per match. I feel like something like this would be far more useful..IMO...thoughts anyone?
Boons have been overpowered and they're being brought in line with the new balance for medkits.
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@Pulsar said:
I'm mostly okay with the nerf to PR. I like that it encourages hooking different Survivors instead of tunneling. However, I feel that the effect no longer warrants it being a Scourge Hook perk. It should be changed to simply be a token-based perk, without the extra pre-requisite of finding a Scourge Hook. This will make the perk more consistent and will continue to encourage going after new people.
If BHVR is insistent on keeping it a Scourge Hook, remove the token-based system and have it activate whenever a fresh Survivor is hooked. This, once again, encourages going after new Survivors instead of tunneling out one in particular.
The point is that PR cannot have both a token-based pre-requisite and an RNG-based pre-requisite.
Next up is Dead Hard. I'm less okay with the nerf to DH. I think adding an activation condition is fine, but having it be a Safe Unhook leaves a lot to be desired. I like that the perk will, hypothetically, be available when Survivors need it the most, during the mid to late game. However, the activation condition being Safe Unhooks presents issues.
This perk MASSIVELY encourages camping and tunneling. It punishes Killers who play nicely. It also pits Survivors against each other in a competition for safe unhooks.
In order to both de-incentivize camping and tunneling, as well as unhook fighting, Dead Hard should be activated upon taking a Protection Hit for another injured Survivor. This incentivizes Survivor teamwork, Killer-Survivor interaction, pulls Survivors off of gens, gives the Killer pressure by injuring another Survivor AND is thematically accurate to David's character while still preventing DH from being used during the early-game.
Thoughts on these changes?
-"PR cannot have both a token-based pre-requisite and an RNG-based pre-requisite."
Nobody is going to use a perk that gives a 1 time event per enemy player that reduces one generator by 15% progress so it really doesn't matter.
Nobody is going to use Overcharge or CoB either. Those perks basically just got deleted. Sloppy Butcher however is now basically base kit. What killer would not bother bringing it?
-"I think adding an activation condition is fine, but having it be a Safe Unhook leaves a lot to be desired."
Let's talk about this a second.... how do you not get a safe unhook in the age of base kit BT?
Basically they are saying don't farm someone recklessly and you get one use of DH. Nobody is going to try and get a down in 12 seconds to prevent you from getting one use of DH.
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@feffrey said:
With the healing changes coming into DbD its going to impact SoloQ to where they'll have to stay stacked due to not being able to efficiently heal themselves and SWF are going to play injured for the mast majority of the game. The changes doesn't really do anything to the Vets who play. What concerns me is that now it's going to be easier to tunnel players out of the game right off first hook now that players will play more cautiously not willing to body block or take hits to get the save or protection hit. Leaving that player to fend for themselves they'll be the easy choice to pick. You got 3 healthy survivors not hooked vs 1 injured survivor who has 1 hook. The choice is easy to pick
Why spread hooks out when you got a guaranteed kill now.
This will hurt newer players and the casuals who want to just learn and play the game. You can't learn anything if you get tunneled out the game
What do you mean "now?" /lol
Tunneling has been the goto meta for close to a year because survivors want to blast gens and escape.
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@Akumakaji said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3383993#Comment_3383993
Shroompy, I must say that I am surprised by such a bold move, as well as pleased. I would never have thought this up myself, but this is rather elegant!
With a base-kit NOED "do bones" would suddenly become the new de-facto secondary objective, everybody knows what to expect from endgame and it would give this awesome adrenalin kick, with the escape so close, yet the danger of failure looming high.
One thing I would add: make the totem for base-kit NOED visible to everyone, but if the killer got the perk equipped, the totem becomes gradually visible to nearby survivors, maybe even starting at zero to account for the perk slot "wasted".
Base kit NOED might have made sense before they announced the changes to healing and boons.
It would be unhealthy for the game to have both.
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@Michi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384080#Comment_3384080
I always said that the worst thing they could do to her is adding a basekit removal for her traps (and this happens now without any compensation)
It is a gigantic nerf. As example :
People will still run around and trigger traps when hag is busy, far away or if they want to lure her away. But guess what happens if you set a few traps mid chase and the survivor you chased has some time later? That survivor will just undo all your hard work or tell their swf buddies where to remove traps.
The old method was to crouch or to trigger and run away which often leads to chases and survs are never tired to express how much they like a chase. Well this is gone now too.
I wouldnt be mad if there would be a compensation for this astronomically nerf like normal killer speed + guaranteed hit after a trap trigger (unless haste effect or window/pallet is in play) but she got nothing.
She already one of the least played killers and people are sick of facing the same ones day for day and now even Mains will drop her
-"But guess what happens if you set a few traps mid chase and the survivor you chased has some time later? That survivor will just undo all your hard work or tell their swf buddies where to remove traps."
That's entirely the point. You give players an option for dealing with traps instead of having a system where no flashlight= no counterplay unless you have an exhaustion perk ready.
-"I wouldnt be mad if there would be a compensation for this"
What do Dead Hard, CoH and Healing in general have in common? They are all getting nerfed to oblivion and will remove three of the things that plagued her the most.
The difference is now you actually have to use effort to get people to step into traps. They aren't just a thing that has zero counterplay because you pressed a button (kinda like dead hard right now).
Again the issue I see is that this is a huge quality of life increase to make playing against Hag more fair. Now you don't need to bring Franklin's Demise - but you can't take away people's ability to disarm your traps in a fair way. I mean imagine if you could see what killer you are playing against in the lobby and everyone switched to a torch. It's pretty stupid to not have any meaningful way to counter her power without a light.
It's not like you have to go around the map and collect your traps like poor old Trapper.
-"Boo Hoo Hag lost the ability to play in a way that was unfun and had little counterplay".
This is what I'm hearing.
Sneaky smart plays will be rewarded. That will take some critical thinking and it will take you some time to get used to that idea. Welcome to how most of the "low tier" killers have to play in order to get any kind of traction.
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@Gamedozer7 said:
To start I want to say this isn't a I got killed my noed so is op because it's not but....I've ran into it quite a few times in the last week and almost all of them should have been a 4 man out. The killers had 2-3 hooks but end the game with 2-3 killers. Then I was thinking those matches are boosting kill rates. Those matches were noway balanced and I'm sure the killer wasn't having fun untell noed kicked in.
So I say nuke the perk and let's see if the kill rates do.
NOED got Nuked with the 6.1 patch - dear time traveler.
Showing its aura to the survivors made it worthless when it was already in a risky state. If you ask me it has been garbage since the 1.05 patch which turned it into this:
And before it looked like this :
The nerfing of this perk goes to show you that Killer doesn't get to have things that annoy the survivors. While Survivor toys do eventually get nerfed it happens on the order of years (note plural).
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@ironblade said:
Did survivors bring the most lamest map offering possible? Discarded thanks to Sacrificial Ward. RPD, Eyrie of Crows, The Game, Badham, Garden of Joy or Decimated Borgo offerings? All flushed down the toilet.
But then I realized... we have so many awful and unbalanced maps. Damn.
You must be one of the "lucky ones"....
Many streamers have their game crash when a 4 man SWF uses a Garden of Joy, Borgo or Farm map offering.
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@foodie said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3383982#Comment_3383982
I mentioned Otz because he made a video with the exact suggestion that is getting implemented a few months ago. You might have suggested something similar on Steam, but I'm sure more people have seen the video that has been up for a few months than your 6-year-old post. I also heard other content creators suggesting this to the devs. The difference in Otz suggestion is that he also wanted Hag to have normal killer speed. This is not something included in the mid-chapter so far.
Now, about your points:
- Hag players, excluding the ones doing their occasional Hag daily challenge, put either 0 traps at hooks or 1 trap. They can put 10 traps, but they don't, because it's not helpful. Don't compare Trapper here, because unlike Hag, his traps need to be disarmed in order to walk over them. He can block off all paths to a hooked survivor, and Hag can't. The simple thing is, you can walk over the trap without triggering it. You don't become injured, you're not stuck without being able to move.
- You have a 3rd person view, you can use it to see the traps away from the trigger range. Move your mouse and look around, run places where it's unlikely to have a trap. You don't have to crouch the entire match and if you are, you don't understand how her power works. It's easy to notice where her web is, so you know you don't even need to pay any sort of attention to the floor when you're away from her web. Fact is, you need to think logically and strategically when versing this killer, but it's not complicated, I promise.
- Your point is incorrect. A player with 30 hours is able to do this successfully. It's not complicated nor hard to achieve.
- Not going to comment on it, she has 5 ways to avoid/remove her traps. 6 if you want to count flashies.
- You trigger a trap and a scary skinny lady pops up, screaming at your character. The camera flip is your character reacting to that. It is actually realistic.
-"Don't compare Trapper here, because unlike Hag, his traps need to be disarmed in order to walk over them."
You never answered my question : would it be fun/fair if you needed sabo or a toolbox with charges to disarm a bear trap? Trappers would run franklins and would have nearly impossible to disarm traps.
-"she has 5 ways to avoid/remove her traps"
She has 2 ways to remove traps currently and those are flashlight+ run over them with an exhaustion perk or while she is carrying someone. Stop sugar coating the issue.
-"It is actually realistic."
Is it though? You're Dwight and you've been chased by Hag for ~5 years on the upwards of probably close to a Billion times. Hag again? /sigh. Also what's the realism of magic? Can I interest you in some magic crystals? Maybe if you are a Billionare the French would sell you a Mirage F1 with the R. 550 magic missile.
-"You have a 3rd person view, you can use it to see the traps away from the trigger range"
What happens when you put traps under vegetation? Do they glow? No. Do they have any indication they are there? No. The implication is : traps would be more fair if they could not be placed where they have the option to be occluded. Note I'm not advocating for that because that would make Hag very weak. Compare that to a beartrap that is physically visible inside the terrain (and even more visible if you turn vegation to 1 in your GUI settings).
Let's be brutally honest here for a second. What killer in the game historically has the most beneficial kit for camping without being right on the hook? It's Hag with Make your Choice. She is probably the main reason we have base kit BT so that you can't down the healthy player and then insta down the hurt player for huge snowball.
Removing that as an option made Hag far less cheap to play against and was a good decision for the game.
@Brokenbones said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384053#Comment_3384053
Like I said apologies for treading old ground
I mean I don't disagree that playing Hag both right now and potentially in the future may still be pretty rough with the nerf. She is def getting to the level of killers like Myers who are just really outdated. That being said I think this nerf is a step in the right direction in bringing her in line with the rest of the cast
Also I agree with you, current hag's power is counterable, it totally is.
-"I think this nerf is a step in the right direction in bringing her in line with the rest of the cast"
Honestly I think most people will agree when they stop and think about what this change means as it will make playing against the Hag far more tactical. It will require Hag mains to be sneaky with their trap placements - something that has been unnecessary because until now she could brute force her traps on you.
If any of the killers should be about Guile it should be Hag. I think the use of Franklins by Hag mains told the developers that something was wrong.
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@foodie said:
***Warning, this is a rant.
So instead of Hag getting a deserved buff in the current state of the game (yes, she does need a slight buff, despite what some may think), she is receiving a massive nerf, thanks to Otzdarva, who made this change suggestion a few months ago in a video.
It's disappointing to see a content creator who doesn't main this killer get his suggestion into the game, instead of the community that actually play this killer exclusively. Her needed changes have been discussed many times by Hag mains that are content creators as well as here on the forums.
Removing the ability of survivors with flashlights to destroy her traps is not going to be oppressive, and saying that this was the only way to remove her traps safely is simply wrong.
Survivors have plenty of ways to avoid and remove her traps without taking a hit. You can crouch to avoid or run around the radius of the trap, so you don't trigger it. You can trigger the trap on its very edge of the radius and even if the Hag teleports, she is unlikely to hit you.
You can keep an eye on where the Hag is placing her traps and run at them while she is carrying a survivor. Her traps are not invisible and very easy to see and if you happen to know the Hag is very far away from her trap, you can safely trigger her trap without her being able to do anything about it. Yes, she would get a notification of the trap being triggered, but she won't be able to get there in time since she is SLOW.
Instead of only survivors with flashlights being able to destroy her power freely and without any consequence, now all survivors can destroy her traps without consequence.
This is a huge change. If such a big nerf is going to be made, where is her add-on rework? Such a change deserves an add-on rework. Since her traps are going to be constantly removed without her being able to do anything about it, she will need to waste even more time retrapping. She should then receive normal killer speed.
I would like an add-on that will injure survivors who remove her traps, just like Trapper and his add-on that injures all survivors that remove bear traps.
Hag being one of the most unplayed killers will now become even more unplayable. Instead of making changes that will motivate players to play this killer and shake up the meta around Nurse, Blight, Spirit, etc., which are most played, this change will make even players who play Hag not want to play her anymore.
I know I won't want to play her knowing her power is to be made useless without consequence by every survivor, and without her receiving 0 buffs to compensate this nerf.
I don't think this change has been well thought. I see this being heavily abused, especially by SWF, so good job on killing the killer.
-"she is receiving a massive nerf, thanks to Otzdarva, who made this change suggestion a few months ago in a video."
I have posts on the steam forum dating back to 2017 saying you should be able to scratch out her traps. I have been posting this suggestion a very long time.
Imagine playing against trapper but you cant disarm his traps without using charges from a toolkit or having the sabotage perk. That sounds ridiculous right? That's because it is. Hag has been ridiculous for ~5 years.
Even though she was weak she needed a mechanic that introduced : Fair Play.
-"Survivors have plenty of ways to avoid and remove her traps without taking a hit. You can crouch to avoid or run around the radius of the trap, so you don't trigger it. You can trigger the trap on its very edge of the radius and even if the Hag teleports, she is unlikely to hit you."
This is propaganda and let's talk about each.
- Unlike Trapper you can trap the hell out of hooks. Trapper lost this ability because it was "cheap". You trap a hook and if they run you teleport and if you dont you walk over and smack them. This is a "catch 22" scenario where either way the survivor loses.
- You cannot avoid the traps because unlike beartraps they are flat and cannot be seen from a distance. You do not have time to duck walk around the map. It is not realistic to use Urban Evasion (ever) because that perk keeps you from learning how to stealth and instead you use that perk to fake knowing how to stealth.
- -"You can trigger the trap on its very edge of the radius and even if the Hag teleports, she is unlikely to hit you." This is a true sentence if you are someone who has had hundreds of hours of playtime against hag or you are a Hag main. Otherwise 99% of people can't do this. This is a "comp level play" skill that most people do not have.
- The reality is only a flashlight or "armed" exhaustion movement perk like Sprint Burst gives most people the ability to trigger traps safely.
- Hag is one of the most annoying killers to play against because she rips control of your camera away. This is really unfun. Even if you know a trap is there you are forced to have your camera yanked toward the trap and there is nothing that can be done to prevent that.
@ad19970 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3379576#Comment_3379576
I really doubt Hag of all killers is going to need any further buff with healing being nerfed.
If I understand correctly, strong healing items as well as CoH is what hurts Hag the most currently.
Hag is supposed to be a hit and run Killer. She will be better after the changes. She will lose her "catch 22" power set and this is 100% fine.
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@MaudetteClorel said:
For better understanding, I have been playing DBD for approx. 3k hours now, mainly solo Q survivor but I also enjoy playing legion/dredge and spirit from time to time. And especially because I've been on both sides, I try to make the game fun for myself while also trying NOT to make it unfun for the other side.
Ever since the last lackluster chapter came out, I have been trying out other games and what I've noticed is, no other game has mechanics that can be abused and be called a playstyle by the people who do abuse it.
For example, I had a game (as solo Q survivor) on ormond against a blight. His first chase was me, I looped him for 2 gens and from the moment he finally downed me the game went downhill because all he has been doing was slugging me/my teammates repeatedly, going back and forth as soon as either of us got picked up. He refused to hook people and it resulted in 3 people dying on the ground (do the math, how long the game has been going on). Unfortunately I don't know what happened to the last of us, but I guess he was left to bleed out as well.
In what world can you call it a "balanced" gameplay or a playstyle and why does the game allow that? And mind you, I know that some killers tend to "punish" survivors by leaving them slugged for BMing or running dead hard or flashlight clicking. But none of us were running meta perks and none of us BMed this poor Blight, so I don't quite understand what his intentions were slugging every single one of us.
For context - this is the builds of me and my teammates. No dead hards, no breakout (wouldn't have made much of a difference that one of my teammates had saboteur because he didn't even pick up anyone to begin with).
If the next patch doesn't scare away a big chunk of solo players, killers like this blight sure will.
Stay safe, be kind
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/GAWGWEN22H9V/313213.png
Back before we had MMR I played Michael Myers when I had otherwise mostly lost interest in this game. I played with no addons and bled out 99% of the people I played against for about two years.
Considering that many of the strongest survivor perks require unhooks you are sometimes better off just leaving everyone on the floor.
There is nothing in the rules saying : you are not allowed to slug the survivors to death. I know most people didn't enjoy playing against me when I did this but I didn't do it to BM. I was playing the game "my way".
Also considering that I got very good at bleeding people out I found it was easier to win this way than hooking. The final piece of the puzzle was that during this time you could effectively "smurf" this way and kill all four survivors without ranking up.
@ProfessorDunwich said:
- noob tubes in MW2
- AWP in Counter-Strike
- projectile spam in literally any fighting game
- Early Void Rays in Starcraft 2
You need to play more games. People have been abusing things in PvP games for ages.
Bleeding out is not an exploit. It's a much more difficult way to end the game actually.
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@Clueless said:
I can't get over the fact that he thinks light-burn is a good thing.
If a killer already has counterplay, adding light-burn is just to make that killer suffer. If they have no counterplay besides light-burn, that is ######### design. Ripping the band-aid off by removing light-burn, then adjusting killers based on how they perform is the right choice.
-"I can't get over the fact that he thinks light-burn is a good thing."
Torches messing up a Nurse or Artist's power is fine but Wraith is not exactly a B tier killer much less an A or S tier killer.
The ability to scratch out Hag traps is what is known as : fair play. Needing an item that she could knock out of your hand was an incredibly stupid design.
@TigerSnake said:
Yeah, no one asked for healing itself to get increased, and they’re really screwing us over by nerfing all the good regression perks.
So you might want to think about the fact that for 6 years we have asked for a second objective. Totems overall were a failure and I think the devs realized this too.
Healing is the new "secondary objective". Without perks or items two people healing each other will take 48 seconds. That's an eternity if one player is sitting on a hook.
@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3381792#Comment_3381792
Extending chases
Yes, if you run adrenaline, resilience, and bring a BNP you can rush gens and heal with adrenaline.
Your point about extending chases is 100% correct, and why people will pre drop every pallet to avoid taking damage.
And survivors will burn Borgo, The Game, or Garden to make sure they have as much time to pre drop as possible.
24 seconds base heals are a complete waste of time, botany or no. Split up, work injured, bang out gens faster than the killer can snowball.
Edit: autocorrect.
-"Yes, if you run adrenaline, resilience, and bring a BNP you can rush gens and heal with adrenaline."
It's even more simple than that. Everyone brings We'll make it so that every heal after an unhook is very fast.
-"people will pre drop every pallet to avoid taking damage."
This will improve the health of the game so that they don't loop that tile and the connected tile for 40 seconds before even needing to use the pallet.
"And survivors will burn Borgo, The Game, or Garden to make sure they have as much time to pre drop as possible."
Many killers already have their game crash When people use Borgo or Garden offerings - Mine does. But strangely enough when I play Nemesis my game does not crash and I crush people who picked The Game.
-"24 seconds base heals are a complete waste of time, botany or no. "
The meta is going to likely encourage slugging. You hook 1 player three times and in the meanwhile slug anyone else. If you have some time you hook but otherwise you tunnel.
@Sweet_Potato said:
Quintessence of OhTofu's review on the upcoming changes starting here:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1774914286?t=00h51m30s
Regardless the entitlement of biased killer mains all people who understand how this game works say that the healing change is just horrible for this game. If it come live killers will have to wait 30 minutes in their lobbies for the next easy mode 4k cuz noone will wanna play a boring m1 holding simulator anymore.
Tofu is just "some guy" at the end of the day. I consider many of his opinions to be wrong - for example I think the old super bloodlust was healthier for the game than current bloodlust. Old super bloodlust meant that when you got chased you were getting hit. It should be noted that the hit was likely to be very soon after the chase started.
Since the devs refuse to balance "stacked" tiles they could give us back old bloodlust that didn't go away when you broke a pallet. It's not like M1 killers are really any better off now than they were before. Killers either have antiloop or they get pallet comp dropped.
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@gtVel said:
You are removing two of the most functionally enjoyable and balanced addons for a killer by nerfing engravings in the way you are.
Engravings trade utility, for lethality. And a sharp increase in skill requirement per engraving added.
It is INCREDIBLY easy to counter as well, purely just by predropping and breaking for distance nonstop.
It's taken me roughly 4500 hours with double engravings ALONE to tell you, they do NOT need to be nerfed. Despite having all this time and experience, I can tell you, billy is STILL weak with them. It's why I enjoy billy, it's a challenge to win with a mechanically high skill ceiling character that's at a disadvantage. I regularily play with no slowdown, or occasionally just agitation and shadowborn and only queue lery's because I LOVE the unfair challenge. The overheat changes make no difference either, because overheat is only an issue against players BETTER than you, (until you reach extremely high skill levels). I understand overheat and it's impact VERY well, and it only becomes an issue if you're not aware of how to manage it, and it's a very basic skill to learn.
If you make those changes and nerf engravings, you neuter this killer to a place of irrelevance, and no overheat changes fix that. There is a cult following of double engraving players that has been bleeded out slowly by every billy change that's been made, ESPECIALLY over the past few years. I'd fairly confidently say i'm one of, if not the MOST experienced billy player, and I'm genuinely considering quitting this killer over the changes. And it doesn't stem from a place of bias for wanting a strong killer, I don't care about winning in the first place. It's purely from enjoyment of developing a mechanical movement skill because it's an incredibly unique, incredibly difficult, and incredibly satisfying skill. The high sensitivity inherently makes billy a high skill muscle memory challenge by design, similar to aiming, and removing the skill ceiling and potential range is just antithetical to what actually makes billy punishing! Remember, the faster you're moving, the more challenging that initial turn sensitivity is. That fast movement speed is EVERYTHING that matters, and inherently balances itself with the wind up/cooldown times of the chainsaw on TOP of the mechanical complexity.
That doesn't even get into the VERY intimate and frequently changing knowledge you have to develop about timings, every potential angle of exit of a loop, and which one is most likely by the skill assessment you've built of the player you're chasing, literal update-to-update environment hitbox changes, and other weird idiosyncrasies billy's chainsaw has. Overheat being added to the game was just salt in the wound.
Billy is HARD. That is FINE. There needs to be something like this in the game, because no other killer comes close. He's already on a knife's edge of being unusable and I say that with again, 4500 hours. Let's talk about making him better in a healthy way to serve his strengths in fun, or at least leaving him as is until he can be addressed in a healthier manner.
Please Behavior, reach out to me and talk. I don't want to see what makes me passionate about this game fully die.
Billy died a long time ago friend. I say this as someone who put a lot of time into him before BHVR ruined him with a 3-5 step process that until now "ended" with the overheat.
legacy censor.pngThis is a retired costume and the only level 3 legacy I have for killer.
@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3379221#Comment_3379221
Listening to the professional Hillbilly players is what caused Hillbilly to be insufferable to play as for any casual player. He is just too hard to play and only hardcore experts play him. Listen instead to the rest of the community who does not play him, ask them why they don't play him. Hillbilly is like Nurse in that regard, completely insufferable to play as except you get mediocre results for your sweat. bHVR could have given him quality of life, change the power. but that would not fly.
Leather face is a much more viable and open to other players kind of Killer, but you have to pay for him.
Like have you seen the gameplay vs a Good Hillbilly? they walking back and forth revving the chainsaw around the same loop for a min and then BOOM insta-down. Its super boring and Im glad I never see a Hillbilly nor have any want to play as them. Hillbilly needs a full rework of his Power and a reduction of addons that show too high a kill rate is a good solution while we wait. Make Hillbilly fun and easier to play instead of gatekeeping him hard.
"Leather face is a much more viable and open to other players kind of Killer, but you have to pay for him."
Go back to 2018 and BIlly was better than Nurse on some maps. Mind boggling isnt it? I suspect that marketing called up the devs and said : everyone is just playing Billy or Nurse. You gotta nerf Billy so people buy other killers (/queue Guinness Brilliant.gif).
Indoor maps were added as a way to nerf Billy/Nurse without adjusting their kit. This along with other map changes prevented you from having a direct path from A to B so that your movement became less effective as Billy. In case you didn't know - most of the time from 2016-2018 you could make "laps" around most of the maps as Billy. Everything was a 3 gen because you moved so far so fast.
Look at the state of DBD right now :
Trapper, Wraith and Hillbilly are all free but suck compared to other DLC killers. Huntress and Nurse are hard but powerful in the right hands (yet also free).
Somewhere between 2016-2018 The developer Dave said : DLC killers are "pay to lose". In other words they would not be pay to win. The devs obviously have changed their minds with that idea so you buy more DLC. On that note : did you ever notice that you can play survivor "for free" buying no DLC and have amazing access to strong perks? But if you want to play killer you need to buy DLC for gen slowdown (Deadlock is still paywalled behind Pinhead and has NEVER been in the shrine), detection and to have better options in chase.
I feel bad for anyone who never got to play "flick billy" in 2016. That was a monstrosity and it was the only deserved Billy nerf. What do you mean Billy can still flick? - said the sweet summer child in 2023.
Insta saw Billy from 2016 was "fine". There was still counterplay and it is good to have a strong addon combination for killers.
There was a quote from Zubat around 2018 where he said something like, " Most of the time it's faster to just M1 good survivors but using the Chainsaw is more fun and stylish."
The overheat system absolutely destroyed any desire I had to play Hillbilly. His License might as well have been revoked like Demo. That nerf was the last straw for me in a long line of little nerfs that added up over about 4-5 years.
The only thing Billy needed was a overheat mechanic when around a survivor on a hook. And that should have been extremely punishing to the point where it is 5-8 times as severe as the current mechanic.
But you know the hilarious thing? Leatherface doesn't even have collision with hook poles when he is in his power and can rev his chainsaw without penalty at a hook because he is the "pay to win" version of Billy. You can change my mind at any time BHVR but you won't because I am right.
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@feffrey said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3381678#Comment_3381678
60s is fair it isn't the survivors fault for the killer not being able to adapt or get any better. They played it bad and have to own up to their mistake not get a free handout if a chase is lasting 60s additional then that's on the killers for not pivoting where it was needed.
Here's the problem with your analysis : There are pallets in the game that literally turn off any attempt at skill for the killer to outplay the survivor. If this pallet is thrown and unbroken then it creates a "mini infinite" loop. That should not be part of the game but it is anyway.
It boggles the mind when a survivor main says things like :
- If they can loop for 60 seconds against an M1 killer then they deserve all that time.
- Why is the killer camping to conform a hook state? (the answer btw is because he could have chased you for 60 seconds and lost 2-3 generators around extremely safe/broken parts of the map. )
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@TigerSnake said:
Self healing only takes 24 seconds, altruistic healing will remain at 16. Call of Brine goes to 150 instead of 125, and leave Pain Resonance, Overcharge, and Billy’s engravings alone FFS!
You forgot to make killer base kicking 1:1 regression with survivor progression and tooboxes be Sabotage only unless they have a BNP.
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@leowt said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3381689#Comment_3381689
"You want team members healing each other to be faster than self-healing".
Yes. You are not considering the fact that as of now, 2 team members healing for 16s is equivalent to 32s of gen progress. After the change, 2 team members healing for 24s is equivalent to 48s of gen progress. On the other hand, if the teammate heals themself with the new medkit, they will be spending 24s for an equivalent of 24s of gen progress. Even if you kept altruistic healing times to 16s, self-healing with the new nerfed medkit is still more efficient.
The reason why I questioned whether you read my post is that you completely missed the fact that I support the nerfs to boon COH and medkits, the 2 primary ways that survivors heal themselves. Yet, you disagreed with gusto even though I am literally saying the same thing as you.
"Self Care"
First of all, I don't care for Self-Care and I never have. Self-Care is irrelevant. Second of all, I am advocating for altruistic heals to remain at 16s. This literally does not apply to Self-Care. Self-healing via medkits and Self-Care should be changed to 24s basekit speed (meaning I'm okay if Self-Care gets nerfed from 45.7s to 68.6s. Lastly, this really proves to me that you are misunderstanding this whole conversation.
"
"the increase in healing time from 16 to 24s should not apply to altruistic healing."
Yes it should. Why? Self Care already has a built in penalty. Survivors can bring We'll Make it to heal everyone faster. In fact if this patch made a "Well Make it" meta then you could always get fast heals after an unhook.
"
Sorry, I don't really understand how the presence of We'll Make It and Autodidact in the game justify nerfing altruistic heals. The logic there is equivalent to saying that gens should be 60s because killers have slowdown perks like Deadlock. Like what?
"Secondary Objective"
Yes, I agree with you on this point. What I'm saying is that without boon COH and with nerfed medkits, this secondary objective would already take significantly longer to achieve. There is no need to nerf altruistic healing because there is already significant foregone gen progress, a time investment in finding and travelling to your teammate, and a risk due to grouping up.
What's the post title:
Leave altruistic healing alone
-"Medkits will save survivors even more time than before, making them even more necessary than before."
While medkits will likely be more necessary than before they will not be healing for 8 seconds anymore. So the claim of them saving more time is just not true.
Compare 10.7 seconds to 45.7 seconds (medkit vs self care).
Compare 10.7 seconds to 16*2 seconds (medkit vs team healing)
And After
Compare 24 seconds to 24*2 seconds (Medkit vs team healing)
10.7-45.7= 35 seconds. (medkit vs self care before)
48-24 = 24 seconds (medkit vs team healing after)
68.6-24= 44.6 seconds (medkit vs self care after)
The take away message here is that self care is getting nerfed to oblivion. This is fine because infinitely healing invalidates pressure from the killer.
-"Camping will be more profitable than before"
Gens will fly like they always have - maybe even faster. In the current meta you can blast the hell out of a generator with Overcharge +CoB and then use a scourge hook. None of those perks will be worth it after the patch.
What you will see more of is : slugging and easy unhook denial. You are going to get severely punished for playing hurt. So you can blast the gens but you'll pay for it when you need to make the unhook.
The survivor team will always have to keep one player unhurt to be able to unhook or then the killer can camp out a hook state.
Because healing is the new secondary objective - this will take up lots of time.
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Self care already got nerfed with a slower healing speed. This patch seems to be addressing what survivors have asked for since DBD launched : a second objective to make the game interesting.
When you are full health against most killers you do not feel threatened because maps are pretty safe and you have to be attacked twice. Since heals are the new second objective designed to "waste time" for survivors there should be no difference in the heal changes. We already have perks like Autodidact and We'll make it that massively speed up healing other people.
If you want to heal other people faster then bring those perks.
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@leowt said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3381580#Comment_3381580
Did you even read my post? I've said the nerf to boon COH is good and justified, and I think it's good that medkit self-heals are increased to 24s and capped at 2 heals. Nerfing self-healing of all kinds is good for the game. I only want altruistic healing speeds to remain at 16s.
Also, if you want to complain about DH, there are hundreds of other threads for that - not this one.
-"Did you even read my post?"
You want team members healing each other to be faster than self healing. Self Care already got a slower heal speed nerf but for six years it had the same mechanical advantage as two people healing. It used the same "time" resources for the team if travel time were zero but if there was travel time then SC was actually more efficient.
-"the increase in healing time from 16 to 24s should not apply to altruistic healing."
Yes it should. Why? Self Care already has a built in penalty. Survivors can bring We'll Make it to heal everyone faster. In fact if this patch made a "Well Make it" meta then you could always get fast heals after an unhook.
There is a perk that already makes healing other people better - maybe you should use it :
The devs are basically making healing be the "second objective" everyone has asked for since the beginning.
- You can play the game hurt and risk getting caught but do the gens faster but you might die faster too.
- You can slow the game down and heal but gens will take longer.
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@feffrey said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3381592#Comment_3381592
Not everyone is a top player though and the game shouldn't be balanced around top players. If a chase is 90s long your over committed and that's you're own fault. Who would let someone kill you for free
-"Not everyone is a top player though and the game shouldn't be balanced around top players."
You can't have a perk that gives almost 4x the advantage of a similar perk in the same category. DH and SB are both exhaustion perks meant to give you a tool to create distance where none exists. If the best players are always getting 17 seconds from SB and the bad players are getting 12 that's fine. No one is upset about 5 seconds longer in a chase.
DH was giving good players 40-60 seconds extra in a chase. Do you think there is any scenario where equipping DH and getting that much extra time in a chase was fair?
You cannot have a game ignore "top tier" balance unless as a player you can "opt out" of top tier gameplay.
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@feffrey said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3381566#Comment_3381566
Isn't that the purpose of a perk to be useful and for survivors to you know survive ? How tools to survive you know? Or should they lay Dien snd due when you see them
Here's the problem :
Sprint Burst and Lithe really only work "a little bit" compared to current DH. The two front loaded perks let you change the tile you are on at the start of a chase and then do nothing. DH lets you get distance to get to a new tile mid chase. That means you could combine it with windows and then run to 3 safe pallets and force the killer to drop all those pallets and break them.
It was common to see strong players use DH and then get 30 seconds in a chase but sometimes 40-60 seconds. IF the survivors get 30 seconds extra time in a chase that gives their team 90 seconds which is the time to complete three generators.
In the very best of conditions when you use SB/L you're going to get about 12 seconds in a chase if the killer is expecting it. If the killer attacks and misses then maybe you get ~17 seconds in the absolute best case scenario. The realistic use of DH gives you basically double time at the worst and +40 seconds at best. That was absolutely game breaking.
When playing vs high level survivors DH extended chases by minutes over the course of the game.
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@leowt said:
The issue with healing has always been with self-healing with medkits and boon COH, and it is a great thing that they are trying to address this. However, the increase in healing time from 16 to 24s should not apply to altruistic healing.
To understand why, I think it is helpful to think of health states in terms of forgone generator progress and risk.
As of now:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/AP0EM46XO6QL/image.png
If the update goes live as is, this is what healing would look like:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/5OE7V7RTJ51S/image.png
From analyzing these numbers, we can make several predictions:
- Medkits will save survivors even more time than before, making them even more necessary than before.
- Camping will be more profitable than before. Killers can injure survivors coming for the save, and since it will take survivors a longer time to reset to go back for the save, there is a higher risk of a survivor hitting stage 2/dying and hook trading becomes more necessary.
- Although these changes will make stealth killers stronger, they will undeniably make top-tier killers A LOT stronger. Killers for which inflicting health states is trivial will become much much more oppressive.
- Perks and addons that inflict Mangled and Hemorrhage will undeniably become meta.
I think the most problematic aspects of healing have always been medkits (especially green ones) and boon COH, which allow survivors to split up and save time. Altruistic healing, on the other hand, should in fact be encouraged and should remain unchanged at 16s because
- It is a fair time investment of 32s (36% of gen progress)
- It takes time for survivors to find each other and travel to heal
- It increases the chance of grouping up and allowing killers to pressure multiple survivors at once
Also, if you devs go ahead with this change, please think about reworking Hemorrhage. Even in this boon COH and medkit meta, I have never lost a game as Wraith using Sloppy Butcher and Nurses' Calling to harass and constantly regress healing. I can't even imagine what it would be like to play against that after this patch drops.
Sorry but you're wrong. There are too many ways to heal in DBD currently. Medkits could heal 2-3 times per game and offered very quick heals. Boons added a 5th phantom player to heal anyone in its radius and that broke the game too.
When you look at the DH meta it didn't matter when you got hurt because you had to get hit twice more. It was overall far harder to inflict an injury than it was to heal it.
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@Anti051 said:
Oh no, people will have to actually be good at running tiles to escape now instead of just smashing E after getting outplayed, how terrible and "unhealthy." 😆
This is a really good point - Dead Hard allowed survivors to mess up and have "insurance" in case they made an error mid chase. Where was : Generator Hard? You lost a generator because someone wasted your time with Dead Hard so you press E on a completed generator and now it goes back to active with 60 seconds of repair time lost.
DH was too strong when used by good players but was used poorly by bad players. Good players were getting even more time in chase before than they were with DH for distance. Old DH for distance gave you about 2-3 seconds of distance. The current form of DH gives you ~16 seconds of distance + the killer's recovery animation.
@tyantlmumagjiaonuha said:
why is this bad park still used 75% survivers?
And that's why it got nerfed - The top tier of DBD loopers were using this every game to waste massive amounts of time. The meta didn't shift at all when the devs "nerfed" it except that only the top tier players were using it. Not only were they doing well with it - they were doing better than the old DH for distance.
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@Akumakaji said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/369195/dead-hard
People have always claimed that SB would be the next meta after DH and that killer mains would course their own words, because "SB is actually stronger then DH!!!1", but frankly, I don't see it. In the short, wounderful period right after 6.1, when DH disappeared with a bang, we had a fun time of many experiments. People used all kind of builds, tried out old, rusted and crusted perks, just to see if they could fiddle around with them and, yes, peeps used ALL kind of exhaustion perks.
During this time SB did't rear its ugly head as the bringer of the apocalypse, because getting value out of sprintburst, besides quickly bursting away from a gen that you had 30s time to regain your exhaustion, its not that easy to use, Lithe is much more plug and play, and maintaining a 99% SB is the sort of high skill play that you see very, very rarely.
The thing is this: even if everyone would be running SB, Fixation and Vigilance, this would still be far, far, faaaaaaar less aggrevating and obnoxious then DH, because its the nature of the perk to be front loaded, ie all its power is spend at the start of a chase, so the killer can evaluate if its worth pursuing that survivor or not, its not a nasty surprise 45-60s into a chase, literally taking away all your progress in the 7 frames before you would reap your benefits. And a survivor cornered can't suddenly pull a SB out of their behind and get a shot at sprinting away EVERY SINGLE TIME (at least unless they 99% it for the whole chase), nor do you have to waste time and play stupid mindgames in the open EVERY SINGLE TIME with EVERY SINGLE SURVIVOR or risk an embarressing blunder.
So call doom and gloom and the SB apocalypse all you want, it won't be happening. Oh there will of course be a few lonely lost souls who will cry for a nerf, thats just a givin with practically everything, but you won't be seeing 40+ threads all lamenting the same unfun playstyle that DH promoted, I guranteed it! And if it happens, please quote me and I will eat my words.
This post is truth. Never in 2016 through July 26 of 2017 did we hesistate when we could swing at a survivor. Those times appear to be over and good riddance.
DH was a perk that gave you a third health state in chase which gave the enemy team 3x that much time because DBD is a 4:1 game.
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Looking forward the new meta will be : zero gen regression perks.
Healing is going to be self care+medkits. Heal speeds are going from 16 seconds to 24 seconds which means if you use sloppy Butcher those heal times will go to 30 seconds.
New Self Care base will be : 39.6 seconds. Make that 49.5 with Sloppy Butcher.
@ad19970 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3379262#Comment_3379262
That's not quite true. Jolt still exists, and I am not 100% convinced that PR is going to be bad after the nerf.
We'll see how effective it is to stay injured the entire match, but against killers with strong power, staying injured is very dangerous. Especially because survivors rely quite a bit on the speed boost they get after getting injured, it's one of the aspects that help them out in chase a lot to get into better positions. Being one shot takes that away.
The only thing that comes to my mind right now that might really become troubling is camping. They will absolutely have to increase the hook phase duration if they nerf healing like this, and I hope they will do so before the update goes live.
Jolt "works" because you combined it with other regression perks. The combo with Jolt was Pain Resonance. That's not a thing anymore so Jolt wont work.
Much like CoB+Overcharge - these perks worked well together but not so great alone. CoB did quick regression and Overcharge did long term regression. Both of these together now will be worse than either alone previously.
@Emoba said:
It wasn't excepted. Literally nobody asked for it to be nerfed again, not even the most hardcore survivor mains. This whole update is pure insanity anyway.
-"This whole update is pure insanity anyway."
The only thing that is "about time" is the nerf to med kits and DH.
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@Dennis_van_eijk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3376341#Comment_3376341
Fun is subjective.
Your fun may differ from the other 4 players in the match.
If what you say is true and the matches are exhausting, then why continue to play dbd and not just another game to take a little break?
Trust me as i speak from experience, it really helps
-"Fun is subjective."
The reality is that a lot of people play DBD to have fun at the other side's expense. Some people enjoy doing this with very strong killers and others do it with a 4 man bully squad.
@Grum said:
Playing survivor is miserable because every killer is more interested in immediately tunneling and camping (which they can now do freely with the DS nerf) someone out at the start of every match, and then dragging a match out forever with free and infinite regression. Never committing to any chase that they can't end in 10 seconds, because they can't stray too far from their gen kicking simulator. Then, there's the rapidly growing list of killers that have powers that deny looping outright.
Playing killer is miserable because, assuming the game doesn't match me with potatoes that aren't fun to interact with regardless, every survivor has been conditioned to crank gens as quickly as possible and then leave, since this is their primary defense against every killer tunneling, camping, and protecting a 3 gen every match. The current regression meta doesn't reward you for actually committing to chases and downing survivors, so playing for chases often leaves you feeling like you've been punished.
No one plays to have fun anymore. Every match is just so intense and exhausting; and if it's not intense and exhausting, it's just boring (and still exhausting).
On top of this, it feels like every year they remove more and more techs and diminish match variety further and further.
It just really blows.
-"No one plays to have fun anymore. Every match is just so intense and exhausting"
The problem really is the MMR system. The worst players are having a great time because they are finally winning.
Take a peek at Steam Charts and look what MMR has done to DBD. In September of 2021 we had 50k average players. Now we have closer to 30k players.
MMR creates a "weaponized" environment where everyone tries to win harder only to stay in exactly the same place (Just like the Red Queen).
Old school monthly rank resets were better than what we have now. Every month you got a clean slate so you could start over. IF you win a lot now you're gonna get punished and have lots of Nurse/Blights to keep you from winning.
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@JustWhimsical said:
DH is the most unfun perk to go against for the killer side, it's overused and overstayed its welcome in the meta for many years, to not understand why people hate the most overused perk that you see at least 2-3 of every game is simply silly considering how many people get mad about cob and other highly used killer perks.
People can wait it out, but not when they are on the pallet because its latency based you can time it perfectly and still hit dh, there are also other moments where had they not been using dead hard you could have gotten a survivor, specific instances where you cannot afford to just wait it out. Sure not every run-of-the-mill survivor can use dead hard now, but it doesn't mean it is bad if you or someone else you know cant trigger dead hard ever. If it was bad then no survivor would use it, it's similar to what people used to excuse old dead hards strength. Since I can't use it then it must be bad or in a good spot.
The actually smart people who use dead hard don't run at the killer hoping they swing they use it on pallets, while the killer's power is being telegraphed, and when they know the killer can't afford to not swing like making a mad dash to the exit gates when their bt runs out and the killer if they get that hit they get downed and can get out, but dead hard gives them that brief window to escape where otherwise they wouldn't have. This perk may not be that strong to you, and to your credit, it isn't as bad as it used to be, but it's still not enjoyable to see every game, because it makes it so killers have fewer options even when survivors don't have it in play this perk works. It's just that all-encompassing.
Literally, no perk has this amount of impact on the game, NOED used to in a way with most survivors calling out NOED if the killer is even remotely bad lol, but since it's become less used and easier to find survivors do not do all 5 totems to get it. I would literally trade any other good killer perk just for the removal of dead hard because it makes me sigh every time I see it now, I used to use it all the time like the older older dead hard when people said sprint burst was better cause it didn't leave you on the ground exhausted, but seeing it every game for years when it rose in popularity it just made me despise this perk it's not fun for the other side it's not fair to killers who have super telegraphed powers, it's just a meta perk that refuses to get out of the meta and will continue to remain the best exhaustion perk until they maybe consider just completely changing it.
-"DH is the most unfun perk to go against for the killer side"
The "O" word you are looking for is overtuned.
-"Literally, no perk has this amount of impact on the game"
What people don't realize is that extending a chase by 20 seconds gives the enemy team 60 seconds of time. Where's the killer perk that undoes 60 seconds of work on a generator by pressing E?
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3377733#Comment_3377733
How is basekit DS a problem? It was the most well-tailored perk. The only thing that could improve on it is removing collision with the killer while it's active.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3377894#Comment_3377894
Doesn't have to be just BHVR though. They do sometimes take suggestions from forums. They took a pretty ambitious one of mine, so we can all just brainstorm together about possible solutions.
-"How is basekit DS a problem?"
Basekit BT gave survivors tunnel protection. The result of giving survivors this perk only increased tunneling - not decreased it.
Why did that happen? Because the killer was already too far behind on their objective.
Why didn't the killer get Basekit Deadlock? The answer is because survivors would feel bad and not like it. From a balance standpoint the killer needs tunnel protection so they don't lose a lot of generators quickly. They don't get it because the survivors would have less fun.
The balance method for this company is : what makes the survivors happy will make us the most money. Therefore we don't really care about the killer's fun. "F*** em!"
Before DBD bought their IP they were under a mandate for 2 years where they were not allowed to nerf survivors again. When they bought the IP they had the opportunity to change the formula to a balanced game. But they didn't do that.
McLean made a quote from around this time concerning the Marth experiments : " We weren't trying to make a balanced game."
And they still are not. They want to make a game that is fun for bad and average players so they buy all the DLC and then move on. They do not balance high level survivor play because then 70% of the "long term" players would quit.
Before we had the 6.0 shake up we had regular scenarios in queue where there were ~30 killers or fewer for 4500 survivors. This data was gathered by pinging the DBD servers to see who was in queue.
Remember that the recipe for this game is supposed to be 4 survivors for every 1 killer. The queue was missing about 850 killers on average.
Since some people weren't here I will remind everyone that after the game had been out for about a year there was a killer strike where at least 2k killers stopped playing the role. There was a 15+ minute wait time to play survivor. But there was no other game to play so people waited.
This same wait time killed VHS a few months ago.
Ultimately killer is a lonely experience with very little reward. Most of my killer main friends are excited for TCM because you can play 3 killers vs 4 survivors.
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@BlueRose said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3375833#Comment_3375833
Mostly wanted to make a comment on the Otz part of your post and 50-game winsteak. I want to point out that ever since they turn mmr on Otz hasn't been about to get 50 wins in a row anymore and in fact, he even mostly retired from the 50 winsteak challenge now. He now settles for 25 to 30 wins if he is even able to get that. The only 50 winsteak he got doing the time mmr been added to dbd was on artist and that even has a * beside it bc he got that winsteak doing the days they had mmr turned off as part of the week-long experiments they were doing for mmr.
Personally, I do not find the killer the easiest role in this game at all. The killer is still to me the more stressful role and sometimes the most unfun times I have in a game(depending on the type of survivors I have). I do get 4ks often? yeah but not as often as you or the OP puts it. Maybe Im just bad even tho I have over 1000s hours in the game now but I still find matches super stressful and hard to win on a nightly basics. I would say the easiest role in dbd is swf.
-"Mostly wanted to make a comment on the Otz part of your post and 50-game winsteak"
He did complete the last ~16 or so of artist on a day when MMR was turned off. I say that mars the streak to be invalid. Imagine if there were a day that let killers only queue against solo players. Would that invalidate a 50 win streak?
-"Personally, I do not find the killer the easiest role in this game at all."
-"I would say the easiest role in dbd is swf."
That's because the power role in DBD is the SWF. They dont nerf SWF because that role makes survivors happy. IF you can play Nurse/Blight at very high levels with strong perks+addons then maybe you can reclaim the power role.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3378199#Comment_3378199
And as I said before that statement means nothing. The metrics the devs use to balance the game are largely empty.
They're better than what you've got, which is -absolutely nothing-. Everything you say is conjecture.
It's not a logic loop but it is a very simple idea. Because SWF exists and the maps we have are balanced for very low skill players - there are only two killer who are "fair" to play if you are playing people who are "good" or better at playing survivor in a SWF.
Except that idea has already been broken down when the 'no holds barred' tournament was brought up where more than just Blight and Nurse were successful.
This kind of goes back to what @C3Tooth was saying earlier in the thread: Your standards for what is 'viable' are simply misconstrued.
Doctor might be viable the second top team A beats top team B where both teams can use Nurse and Team A uses Doctor while Team B uses Nurse. That will not happen without years of map/swf/killer rebalancing. It could theoretically happen. You could also theoretically have a solid gold meteor the size of a bus land harmlessly in your back yard.
At this point, you're so far off track that you're not even talking about DbD anymore. Under what circumstance would Doctor and Nurse be pitted directly against each other? Is there a new killer vs. killer gamemode that I missed somewhere along the way? Because from my understanding of DbD, having played it a few times, killers go up against SURVIVORS, not other killers.
Why are you pitting Doctor versus Nurse when that has nothing to do with viability? Again: You are conflating 'top pick' with 'viable'.
Doctor will never get picked in the current balance because Doctor is at least 2 if not 3 categories weaker than Nurse. It's like you're trying to say : maybe fist wins at 100m if the other person with the gun is blindfolded.
Again: 'Top pick' =/= 'Viable'.
'Viable' for a killer is NOT "Can you beat Nurse?". 'Viable' means "Can you beat SURVIVORS?". By all metrics we have, it is evident that he can. We've not seen the best Doctor player in the world against the best survivor players in the world, but you're jumping to the immediate conclusion that he can't win based on nothing but your gut feeling.
To go with your 'fist' vs. 'gun' analogy: You're essentially claiming that, since a gun is a more effective weapon, it is physically impossible to kill anyone with a fist.
-"that idea has already been broken down when the 'no holds barred' tournament"
And how many killers actually got used? It was around 8-10 if I recall. So that means ~21 killers were not worth picking/considering. What does that tell us? It means about 2/3 of the killer cast would be ineffective in such an environment. If you want to put that another way : they are not viable.
-"Under what circumstance would Doctor and Nurse be pitted directly against each other?"
Doctor and Nurse are pitted against each other every time a Doctor with the same MMR as a Nurse player enter the queue. It's a mockery of game balance. There is no scenario where Doctor and Nurse are an even pick. You sometimes want to agree to this point and other times not.
-'Viable' means "Can you beat SURVIVORS?"
Since the Doctor did not appear in the "anything goes" tournament we can assume Doctor was not a viable choice.
I am saying: Doctor in an ineffective killer against very good players. Take your favorite streamer and donate 100$ and do the same for the members of a tournament team have them play a nice scrimmage match. Streamer XYZ playing the comp team with "anything goes" will be a one sided game with 3/4 escapes. Clown is better than Doctor in such an arena because he has one hit downs with a skillshot. Doctor has no "skillshock" for damage addon.
You can say whatever you like about "maybe doctor is fine" but at the end of the day he has :
- No movement power (making him weak on large maps)
- Weak anti loop (making him weak on most map tiles)
- Ineffective chases (because of previous mentioned problems)
- A power giving detection (which good killers already have via many hours played)
- a weak power without addons and has no real " punishing" addons like pinky finger/tombstone piece
Put this all together and you reach the conclusion that Doctor is not effective when compared to Nurse/Blight when considering playing against tough opponents. And that is why nobody has ever considered using him in a tournament when Nurse was available.
The conclusion I am making is along the lines of : Doctor should have some kind of "protected" match making when queuing for a game.
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@Omans said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3378190#Comment_3378190
Incredibly rude, and honestly a bit strange to suggest English is someone's second language after your first post was littered with grammar mistakes, and the only reason you made a post directed at me is because you misunderstood what I was saying in the first place. Try to be a bit more considerate.
As for the rest, Trapper not being anywhere near as good as Nurse isn't really relevant to anything, so...
I've read enough of your posts to know that me replying any more won't be a good use of my time. You have picked your 'side': killer, and can't be convinced that, no, things are not dire for the killer role, even with actual top players telling you otherwise and top killer streamers showing you otherwise.
Are there things to fix for both sides? Yes. Is killer a weak role? No. Does a great killer player have the potential to win in all but the most extreme situations? Yes.
-"Incredibly rude, and honestly a bit strange..."
Twice you have failed in the area of : reading comprehension. You mentioned playing in Korea so I gave you the benefit of the doubt. I meant no offense but you are clearly not reading what I write.
-"Trapper not being anywhere near as good as Nurse isn't really relevant to anything"
This is an error in logic because Trapper ends up in the same "pool" as Nurse. Consider a tabletop game where a tank might cost you 50 points while an entire squad of infantry might cost 20 points. Generally speaking the tank is much better and everyone knows it is better so it is treated differently. In the tabletop game it costs more points.
Trapper would be fine if it had special rules to balance out the fact that Trapper is weaker than Nurse. Why should you ever play Trapper if Nurse exists and you play both well - assuming you want to win.
-"if they can make Doctor perform well, so can you. Therefor, Doctor is, by definition, viable."
That is a logic error. Never has there been a tournament where people could pick Nurse and instead picked Doctor and won with Doctor while the enemy team picked Nurse. Why has it never happened? Everyone knows that if you picked Doctor then your team would lose because you picked Doctor.
The limit of Doctor being viable is much lower than a lot of the killer cast. This is why I keep mentioning Doctor. His power is completely defeated by latency.
-"even with actual top players telling you otherwise and top killer streamers showing you otherwise."
You can find Videos of Hens playing Nuse and Blight against top tier players with no addons and even no perks on survivor sided maps. There are no videos of him playing Doctor doing the same thing. Why not? Because it's not possible to do the same thing with a much weaker killer. The best doctor in the world with no perks/addons loses to a strong SWF on a survivor sided map.
@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3378161#Comment_3378161
I have zero clue why you're so fixated on doctor.
It's weird and I'm just gonna let it go. There have been multiple examples given of Killers far weaker fhan Nurse used to win in a comp setting.
I pick on Doctor because he is a weak killer. Also I know with certainty there has never been a case where a "surprise" Doctor pick won against a Nurse/Blight. The fact that it has never happened pretty much tells you that Doctor sucks in comparison to Nurse.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3377847#Comment_3377847
What are you trying to say with this statement?
I'm trying to say that Doctor was best performing killer at all ranks.
Sure, Blight and Nurse could probably beat out his performance with enough practice, but cross-referencing ease of access with performance resulted in Doctor being best performing killer.
As for the rest of your weird 'rebuttal', you're stuck in a logic loop.
- Nurse and Blight are the only viable killers
- Other killers have worse maximum potential than them
- Therefor other killers are not viable
- Therefor Nurse and Blight are the only viable killers
The issue you're having is that you're equating 'top pick' with 'viable', while there's a huge gulf between the two. Just because a killer isn't the incontestable best pick doesn't mean they're non-viable.
Therefore I present the question: Is it possible that the people who are playing Doctor regularly are some of the very best Doctors?
Quite possibly. But that doesn't change anything about the argument. Anything they can do with Doctor, you can, too. So if they can make Doctor perform well, so can you. Therefor, Doctor is, by definition, viable.
Furthermore what happens when we get the top 3 doctors in the world and have them play the best 3 survivor teams in the world
We don't know, because Doctor didn't get picked. For all we know, if someone had picked Doctor, they could've smoked them. But you immediately jump to the conclusion that Doctor is non-viable from him not getting picked in a tournament. Problem with that is that
A) No one plays tournament level anyway, so that's a really bad balancing benchmark.
B) Even the top scene can make mistakes or overlook things. Any other competitive game, you'll find, mostly in international competitions, that one pro scene gets surprised by picks from other pro scenes that they thought were non-viable or never even considered. A small example of this with DBD is that Otz, in his analysis of the killrate stats from October, was surprised to see Sadako perform so well. Now, Otz is a very competent player, but he did not see that coming and could not explain it. So if Otz were to play in a tournament, would he pick Sadako? Not likely. Would that mean Sadako is bad? Evidently not, considering she performs well at high ranks.
I also want to highlight this from your other post:
There is a relevant quote from Truetalent's stream today : " When I play killer against survivors on my level I get 2-3 hooks".
This is a really bizarre quote. If you can only get 2-3 hooks against them, it would seem to me that they are obviously not on your level, but above it. How exactly do you come to the conclusion, when you get absolutely demolished in a match, that you are just as skilled as the people who smoked you?
Is this why half the killer playerbase is in the top 5% killer ranks?
-"I'm trying to say that Doctor was best performing killer at all ranks."
And as I said before that statement means nothing. The metrics the devs use to balance the game are largely empty.
-"The issue you're having is that you're equating 'top pick' with 'viable', while there's a huge gulf between the two."
It's not a logic loop but it is a very simple idea. Because SWF exists and the maps we have are balanced for very low skill players - there are only two killer who are "fair" to play if you are playing people who are "good" or better at playing survivor in a SWF.
-"Therefor, Doctor is, by definition, viable."
Doctor might be viable the second top team A beats top team B where both teams can use Nurse and Team A uses Doctor while Team B uses Nurse. That will not happen without years of map/swf/killer rebalancing. It could theoretically happen. You could also theoretically have a solid gold meteor the size of a bus land harmlessly in your back yard.
-"We don't know, because Doctor didn't get picked"
Doctor will never get picked in the current balance because Doctor is at least 2 if not 3 categories weaker than Nurse. It's like you're trying to say : maybe fist wins at 100m if the other person with the gun is blindfolded.
In terms of ability to counter a SWF : doctor is not viable.
In terms of moving around a 11,000m² map : doctor is not viable.
In terms of getting quick downs : doctor is not viable.
Compared to other stronger killers with good anti loop: doctor is not viable.
Doctor has high marks in detection. That's great and all but a killer who has played for thousands of hours has good game sense and can find people just fine without "wasting" their power for that. Doctor is essentially pathetic in all the categories I mentioned. Let's get some top notch survivors and have them play the best Doctor in the world. Then we can have Hens come play Nurse. The best doctor in the world will look terrible.
Then we can walk it down a few notches. We take the best doctor in the world and we have them play some experienced/good survivors. We invite someone who is a good Demo player and once again Demo will make Doctor look bad.
If we walk it down again and have a mid tier killer played by just an "ok" killer main against mediocre survivors then sure maybe the Doctor would look good.
To make a long story short : We know the DBD metrics are essentially worthless when Doctor is the highest performing killer when he is easily in the bottom 8 section of "weakest killer" in the game.
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@Omans said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3377523#Comment_3377523
Sorry if it wasn't clear. I was just doing a general reply to the original poster. Wasn't trying to reply to you. I only read the top post and made that reply.
However, now I will reply to you. No, killers are absolutely not forced to play in the way you described to do well. A lot of killer players think they are better than they are. A lot of survivor players think that too, of course. But they often die because solo queue is a scary place to be. But those killer players who think they are better than they are? They can fall back on camping the first hook, tunneling the first person out very quickly. That strategy works for a LONG time all the way up to the highest mmrs. A lot of those killer players always play that way, and think they are really good for it.
It is a real failure in game balance that playing that way is so well rewarded so often, meanwhile quickly ending chases on multiple survivors while not camping or tunneling is rewarded less so.
Most games, if you are actually as good a killer as you think, are easy wins at the top mmr. That's just fact. Watch every top killer streamer get win after win. I'm a top killer on the Korean server. I've been as high as top 5 in hatches closed worldwide, and really high on Perfect Games on the stats website.
For the games against the top survivors all together (which are so, so rare), yes, of course you will have to play optimally (doable with most killers). But, and I think this is something you need to really think about, that survivor team needs to play as optimally as possible to win against me, too. One mistake against me? I win.
If you don't have that confidence as killer, I don't know why you think you should be able to win against the top survivors? If I wasn't as good as I am at survivor or killer I wouldn't expect to be able to win as much as I do.
And, maybe I am misunderstanding your point about the Nemesis game. You said you got a 3k against experienced survivors while using weaker addons, and you don't consider that a win? What? Yes, that is a win. Like, what...? A 3k is a win no matter how you look at it. I never slug the 3rd survivor looking for the 4th, so most of my games are 3k's with gens left and the last survivor jumping out the hatch.
Just a last comment: the players who are top killers in the game will be amazing at every killer with few exceptions (for example, I feel confident I can go head to head with top survivor players as most killers except Pinhead or Pyramid Head. Those killers require a lot of time to get better at for me and I can't be bothered.) Your last sentence leads me to believe you can still practice the killer role and get better at it. Maybe that will relieve some of the tension you are feeling towards the role.
I feel like I rambled a bit...In short, yes, optimal killer gameplay is boring as heck. Yes, optimal survivor gameplay is boring as heck too. That's why I go for 12 hook no camping, no tunneling games. In the very rare games where I do get matched up with equally top-skilled survivors then yes, I do have to play optimally to win which is, believe it or not, possible on the majority of killers. If you feel like you must camp and tunnel every game to win it means you are at a higher mmr then your actual skill set is. Top killers are, factually, winning the incredible majority of their matches (easy evidence: top killer streamers) just playing normally.
-" No, killers are absolutely not forced to play in the way you described to do well. A lot of killer players think they are better than they are. That strategy works for a LONG time all the way up to the highest mmrs. "
This is the same strategy used all the way to comp play. Survivors are efficient on gens so killers have to be efficient removing people from the game.
-"Most games, if you are actually as good a killer as you think, are easy wins at the top mmr. That's just fact."
There is a limit to how well you can play with weaker killers. If you must play trapper - no matter how good you are there is a limit to how skilled of a player you can win against. You're saying- that's not true. I'm sorry but you are not being honest or you are delusional. Nurse is massively more effective than Trapper.
-"And, maybe I am misunderstanding your point about the Nemesis game. You said you got a 3k against experienced survivors while using weaker addons, and you don't consider that a win? What? "
I am thinking English is your second language so that makes sense you might have some trouble understanding me. They were the ones who said I lost because one player of their 3 man SWF escaped.
"the players who are top killers in the game will be amazing at every killer with few exceptions. Sorry but that's just not true either."
Marth - one of the oldschool best Nurse mains ever sucked at Huntress. CMWinter used to play only pig and pretty much sucked as most of the other non M1 killers. Otz used to suck with a few killers until he did a 50 win streak to practice them and get better.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3378002#Comment_3378002
I'm pretty sure I saw Ghostface, Plague and Pinhead in the DBDLeague finals.
I will ask the question again in a more clear way.
Did you ever see a team use Doctor instead of Nurse when Nurse was available and Nurse was the better pick for that map? The answer is no.
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@KingFieldShipper said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3377859#Comment_3377859
I've watched many
Then you should know that nurse and blight are not the only ones that can win tourneys/matches.
So you're not getting it. I said let's play on Random maps because overall the majority of maps in DBD favor the survivors. I want all the maps to be fair and having the game set to "random" goes to show more clearly the unfair nature of the game.
I want maps to be more balanced too, but that wasn't what I was replying to either. You said this: "Game will be played best 2/3 on random maps (no picking).", and I was explaining that wasn't the case. That just simply isn't what tourneys do.
Point for me - thank you.
No need to be snarky, this isn't a game show where we are getting points for a prize..
This is where you are wrong. You can see on his streams where Truetalent often plays with and against comp players when they grace the pub queue. I am at the MMR bracket where I normally see people from comp teaams practicing in public matches
To be honest, I find it unlikely that it is that often. Comp teams don't practice in pubs, that doesn't even make sense. They practice in scrims against each other and other teams. You are far more likely to see a comp killer practicing in pubs than a survivor team, and if a team is playing around in public matches they are probably not practicing, they are probably dicking around. Or 'bullying' as you put it.
Most SWF teams playing "normally" will try to save a player on the hook and in so doing get destroyed by 8 stacks of STBFL.
Perhaps they noticed your stbfl and thought it wasn't worth the risk? Tbh neither of those scenarios are that out of the ordinary in pubs. Because this game is random, you don't know what will happen.
I am at the MMR bracket
To be upfront, this means absolutely nothing to me. mmr barely works (still better than ranks tho) and your mmr bracket means nothing. This game is too lenient with the mmr ratings and matching.
The second to last game I played today had a 3 man team where one player had 9000 hours who actually was a weaker looper than the player with a private profile. Not to say their looping was "weak" but I had no trouble beating them in chase. They were actually quite good - but not by far the best player I had seen for the day.
How is this relevant to anything? Time != skill. This is why I think dodging based on prestige and hours is stupid.
You can only speak falsely when you say: "Your games go like this," because you have never seen me play.
Yes, this is why I constantly ask people to record there games if they are struggling, or make weird claims. I just think people over-exaggerate a lot on the forums. I have trust issues. I've said this many many many times in my posts here that this game is really subjective. Likewise, you don't know what is going on in my games, you don't know what I face against regularly.
-"Then you should know that nurse and blight are not the only ones that can win tourneys/matches."
Show me the team winning tournament game in the finals where Team A won with Doctor and team B lost with Nurse. It doesn't exist. Most of the killers could be deleted next week and it would not really change the state of the game as long as their perks remained.
-"That just simply isn't what tourneys do."
And the reason I listed the rules in that way was to highlight the broken nature of DBD.
When I play Torment Creek the game is already lost when I play a non mobility killer if the team knows which three gen to break. This map is more unfair than most because the loops are strong - but there are many maps like this (Azarov's, Suffo pit, Haddonfield, Thompson House, Dead Dog, Father Campbell's chapel (since there is no longer a 3 gen in the carnival anymore), etc.
I love when people use "The Game" offering when I am playing Nemesis; but if I am playing Trapper that offering crashes my game (it's funny how those bugs happen).
Maps should not be an "I win" button. It should be a fun exciting choice because of nostalgia/scenery or something like that. You should not see survivors picking Ormond because it is an easy map to win. Likewise killers should not need to rely on "3 gen or gtfo tactics."
DBD will always be an unfair game if we have M1 killers that lose because maps larger than 9000m² exist. But small size does not automatically mean fair and Coal Tower is a perfect example of why not. That map has way too many linked tiles that allow a strong looper to loop for a long time without using any resources.
Look at Rancid Abattoir vs every other farm map. RA is small, has about 8 pallets (that are all very strong) and a "meh" main building that is usually not very helpful in chase. There are usually multiple places where the killer can control a three gen. Most of the tiles do not link well and require pallets to be used early. I would say this map is "fair" to killers with some anti loop but it can still break a killer like Pig. Even the cornfield in RA is small and not very good for hiding.
Why does small matter? First it matters because shift+w exists. If every killer had some kind of "wesker dash" to use to initiate chases (before a chase starts) it might be a different story. Second it matters because small maps organically create scenarios you start the chase against one person and interrupt another person on a generator mid chase. That just doesn't happen on large maps; if you need an explanation as to why you can look at the gas laws in physics for a very simple explanation.
I would love to see an experimental week where killers that have no movement power/teleport ability stopped being able to see maps larger than 9000m² (unless the killer used an offering to select such a map). Imagine if survivors picking a farm map vs most of the killers and it automatically sent them to Rancid Abattoir.
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@Deathstroke said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3377878#Comment_3377878
3vs4 sounds to mee too many killers but I will definetely try it but personally I would hope 2vs8 mode to dbd. Just imagine Oni with legion or plague unlimited power... I hope the texas chainsaw is popular and forces dbd to add new game mode. That's only way I imagine it can happen. If they can't do 2vs8 for me 2vs4 is fine too. But it would need lot of balancing...
Instead just making gens slower they could add secondary objective which each unhooked survivors would have to do amd before that they could be just incapable of doing gens or have massive gen fix speed penalty. Now that second objective should take decent amount of time. So now if killer chooses to tunnel gens will go fast but if not then the match will go slowly.
-"3vs4 sounds to mee too many killers but I will definetely try it"
From the sound of things it sounds like DBD where you want to hook people so you can feed blood to Grandpa. Survivors will be hiding from the family and they can slip through narrow passages that most family members cannot follow through.
-"Instead just making gens slower they could add secondary objective which each unhooked survivors would have to do amd before that they could be just incapable of doing gens or have massive gen fix speed penalty."
You mean like give the killer a 5th perk slot that can only be used for hexes or boon removing? Imagine if they made hexes able to be rekindled on unbroken bones. There would be an instant meta shift with Blood favor. Survivors would be breaking the bones for fear that every pallet would be turned off when the killer attacks. People would stop bringing bones because the survivors would be removing them.
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@dollidahlia said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/368793/otzs-tunneling-experiment
There’s an easy fix to both tunneling and doing gens being boring. Add another objective. It would massively reduce the amount of tunneling
And there is a very simple way to do this:
- Give killers a 5th perk slot that can only be used for a hex or a hex clearing related perk.
- Let killers rekindle hexes as long as totems exist.
What would happen? Every killer now runs Blood favor until all 5 bones have been broken. Chases are shorter and the survivor objectives are massively longer. Boons become nerfed because their team members keep breaking the bones to prevent the killer from having their hex of choice.
@philward1953 said:
This is EXTREMELY telling in regards to the community's perception on tunneling on BOTH sides.
While Otz obviously isn't an "average" DBD player, I think he is still comparable enough to be an efficient look at the player base.
Also, for further reading, Otz says he played around 60 games, with different killers, mostly using non-meta perks/addons. He also set a rule that prevented him from hooking a survivor twice in a row, which fully prevents him from tunneling.
- His 80% win rate is mostly indicative of his own skill, but this does have some weight when it comes to showing how killers do not have to tunnel EVERY game, specifically right off the bat at 5/4 gens. It's not like killers get sh*t-stomped if they don't tunnel for every game. Sometimes, it is a skill issue, and not the fault of the survivors if a killer is put into a position where they must tunnel to get ahead. There is a time and a place for tunneling, but its not like you'll 100% loose a 4k if you don't (at least in scenarios where a killer isn't at extreme risk like at 5 gens remaining and such).
- The fact that survivors still told him he "tunneled" after he specifically did not hook the same person two hooks in a row is absurd, and is something a chunk survivor player base needs to wake up to. If a killer does not go for, down, and hook a survivor who just got unhooked immediately, they did NOT tunnel. That is not what tunneling is, and it's insane that people think that what Otz did in a lot of scenarios is tunneling. I see the accusations of tunneling as sheer copium.
- As for people who want to be tunneled, that's fine, as some people just want chase interaction. Considering how boring gens are, I think that's understandable. I also don't think there's anything wrong with a killer giving what that survivor wants, or not. When a survivor begs to be tunneled and enter chase, its up to the killer to say yes or no, but the survivor can't turn around an sh*t on the killer for "tunneling" if they then go down. It's their fault they were the killer's next target.
- I have no thoughts on a team trying to prevent a killer from tunneling. Makes sense. 👍️
I mainly take issue with the first two points, as they poke holes in very prevalent opinions the community has. By "take issue" I don't mean I take issue with Otz's conclusions, I think they are apt based on his experiences, I mean I take issue with the opinions of the community.
So if you watch Otz's stream you will hear him say :" I have to tunnel this person if I want to win" when he is trying for an all perk challenge or if he is trying for a 50 winstreak.
When Otz absolutely positively feels he must win - he tunnels. That is all the proof you need.
@Deathstroke said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3377676#Comment_3377676
Dbd needs 2 killer mode then you can both tunnel together one survivor out... That would be fun though.
Sadly this will never happen. DBD is optimized for 5 mobile objects and having 3 bots is "too much" for the system.
Not to worry in August we will get the new Texas Chainsaw Massacre game. It will feature 3 killers on voice coms vs 4 survivors on voice coms. This is the same company that made F13 and so they already had an attempt at the "4v1" years ago so they had time to make a new game that will "work".
@Peanits said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3377674#Comment_3377674
I love the optimism, but that would most definitely not reduce tunneling. Folks who find tunneling an effective way to win will still tunnel, only they'll be even more successful since the Survivors now have to worry about another objective on top of trying to save their friend. Those two things are ultimately completely unrelated. It's like trying to fix a leak in your roof by oiling a creaky door hinge.
Here's the issue:
Tunneling a generator out of the game makes it so that it can never be "unrepaired". Survivors can trade 5 generators for 5 hooks spread evenly across the team and everyone escapes. This is called "efficient" play and is celebrated by survivors - at the expense of the killer.
The "counterplay" to this as killer is to hook one survivor three times. This is the most efficient way to play as killer. You literally get nothing for hooking three different players one time with the base kit rules. Hook one player three times and you get a death that results in a permanent 25% reduction of the enemy team efficiency.
I would stop tunneling tomorrow if I got a 9% debuff to all survivors for generators, healing, chests, totems, sabotage, doors, etc., every time I hooked a new survivor as long as 4 players were alive. Note that an 8% debuff would only be 24% by the 3rd hook making it less effective than tunneling so the debuff needs to be a 9% penalty. After hooking 3 or 4 players once I would go back to tunneling like normal however so the debuff needs to last the entire game once earned - otherwise you just tunnel as normal.
How would this change the game?
- Everyone is alive in the game longer
- Generator defense would actually mean something if killers are averaging 27-36% built in slowdown every game. (note this would likely mean the last two generators would be taking ~118 seconds.
- Three gen scenarios would get more common.
- Dying Light would become an overnight sensation and we could in theory be getting something like a 45-50% penalty for generator completion times.
- It might possibly lead to a game state that everyone hates less than what we have right now.
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@KingFieldShipper said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3377438#Comment_3377438
And that's why 90% of the dbd tournaments have Only Nurse and Blight and the survivors have massive perk/item restrictions.
This makes me think that you've never actually watched a tourney. That is not the case, and a contemporary example is a team won a two day tourney with ghostface - https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1721290991?filter=archives&sort=time - and even in other ones 'low tier' killers still do fine a lot of the times.
Not only do survivors have perk/item restrictions, killers are heavily restricted too - perks and addons. And as Pulsar mentioned earlier there are tourneys that have had no restrictions and killers do just fine too.
Game will be played best 2/3 on random maps (no picking). Addons will be limited (no iri, 1 max purple/green per player) and you can't run addons more than once for the 3 game set.
They aren't random maps, they are picked per killer to give an equal chance for both sides and give the least chance for rng.
That being said none of this matters because most tourney's don't even use kills as the win condition (this is of course per tourney but most ones I've watched use that sort of system.) they use a scoring based on hook states and gens done, and even if it did matter, you aren't running into comp teams in pub matches almost ever and survivors and killers play completely differently than people do in pub matches anyways.
-"This makes me think that you've never actually watched a tourney."
I've watched many. Yes the rules have changed overtime but generally speaking both sides have restrictions. Generally speaking the survivor rules are : no character/item/perk repeats (especially after base kit borrowed time..... but in the past this allowed to be the one perk that could be repeated).
-"They aren't random maps, they are picked per killer to give an equal chance for both sides and give the least chance for rng."
So you're not getting it. I said let's play on Random maps because overall the majority of maps in DBD favor the survivors. I want all the maps to be fair and having the game set to "random" goes to show more clearly the unfair nature of the game. Point for me - thank you.
-"and even if it did matter, you aren't running into comp teams in pub matches almost ever and survivors and killers play completely differently than people do in pub matches anyways."
This is where you are wrong. You can see on his streams where Truetalent often plays with and against comp players when they grace the pub queue.
I am at the MMR bracket where I normally see people from comp teaams practicing in public matches. Sometimes you find a group that is a comp level team and they are bullying. The last group that I played immediately went for a "comp" win and did not try to save the person on the hook. Most SWF teams playing "normally" will try to save a player on the hook and in so doing get destroyed by 8 stacks of STBFL.
There is a relevant quote from Truetalent's stream today : " When I play killer against survivors on my level I get 2-3 hooks".
A few days ago I played against a comp level team who had 2 people in their 4 man swf on different platforms to make it look like they were not a SWF. Someone brought a Halloween medkit addon with an instant heal - to tell you what level of BS they thought they needed.
You can only speak falsely when you say: "Your games go like this," because you have never seen me play.
The second to last game I played today had a 3 man team where one player had 9000 hours who actually was a weaker looper than the player with a private profile. Not to say their looping was "weak" but I had no trouble beating them in chase. They were actually quite good - but not by far the best player I had seen for the day.
The truth is that most people do not regularly play against teams of people who have 5000-10000 hours played. I am not saying I play against that every game but it is more likely I play against someone with 5000 hours than someone with 500 hours (unless that person is on a second account).