Trollinmon
Trollinmon
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@Peanits said:
First, I just want to make it absolutely clear that this is not intended to 'solve tunneling'. This change is solely to make the perk provide more consistent value when it activates, not bring an end to the entire tunneling playstyle. I wouldn't recommend approaching this with the idea that it will end tunneling entirely as that is not the purpose behind the change - you would be setting yourself up for disappointment.
Secondly, regarding disabling Killer powers: I see this getting suggested a lot, but this is not an option. It's one of those things that sounds really simple on paper, but once you start drilling down into it, it turns out to be a whole can of worms. Each Killer power works differently from one another, and there is no one-size-fits all solution that can apply to all of them. Each power would need to be considered on a case by case basis to determine what should happen when they're 'disabled'.
For example, even if you disable the Killer's power button to stop The Nurse from blinking, there are multiple Killers who may already have traps set up around the map - would these also need to be disabled, or are they okay since they were already there? Some Killers also have passive powers/mechanics, such as The Cenobite's Chain Hunt, which would also need to be considered. It would also limit the possibilities for future Killer powers since we would always need to worry, "But how would it work if it was disabled by this one specific perk?"
To be frank, this would be unsustainable. With over 30 Killers in the game and more on the way, having special conditions for each one would require far too much ongoing support just to make that condition feasible. To give an real example from the past, the original version of Tinkerer used to increase the effectiveness of all charge speed add-ons. Even with only a handful of Killers in the game at the time, it ended up being very confusing for players to keep track of which add-ons it could affect, a nightmare to balance because those add-ons could be too strong with the perk or too weak without it, and an unreasonable amount of work to upkeep as the game grew. In the same way, this would require quite a bit of additional work to be done for every Killer just to support one perk. It's one of the reasons that perks typically don't interact with powers, and the few that do are gradually moving away from that (e.g. Adrenaline waking up Survivors).
Don't get me wrong, it's a neat idea and the intention behind it is good, but it's way outside the scope for a single perk and could quickly turn into a confusing mess.
Would think making the killers' power go on cool down and doesn't start until they recover from the stun to be more effective at dealing with the stronger killers being impacted less compared to the weaker ones. Would fix the killers like Nurse, Blight, and Spirit getting hit much less than a Trapper. Don't really get how something like that with making DS a 4 second stun isn't overall more consistent vs all killers compared to just making it 5 seconds.
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@oxygen said:
I'd really like to at least see them try the no collision idea at least for basekit endurance, if not for whenever someone has endurance full stop. Seems like the smoothest thing to at least try that doesn't have the potential for extremely obnoxious side effects (like the terrible idea of treating protection hits as inherently conspicious actions. Yes, I totally want to have all my anti-tunnel turned off because there was an injured Meg in a bush where I happened to go down, very epic!)
Obviously makes it so you can just walk through them if they try to block, and also makes it better at anti tunnel too. Killer can't partially or even fully block to wait it out, and it's easier for teammates to take hits for the person that came off the hook without risking accidentally blocking the survivor they're trying to help while doing so as well.
Is there even a major problem with reworking base kit BT to not be endurance and simply turn it into a 10 second mettle of man with no collision? Seems like that fixes the only issue OTR has in the game and makes it so survivors can't body block off hook.
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@TheDavidKingMain said:
It's kind of funny watching killer players whine about the recently announced DS buff, saying that 5 seconds is too much. But, the DS stun time literally used to be 5 seconds and NOBODY complained about that part of the perk. The only things that were complained about DS were the old variations where you didn't lose it on conspicuous actions, but that was patched out a long time ago.
But now that DS is being restored to its former glory, suddenly it's a massive problem to some people. This is making me believe that killers have gotten so used to winning games by just hard tunneling since survivors don't have a strong counter to it.
New DS will not affect you if you simply don't tunnel. If you have an issue with new DS, YOU are the exact reason why this perk had to be buffed.
New DS will not affect you if you simply don't tunnel. If you have an
issue with new DS, YOU are the exact reason why this perk had to be
buffed.I don't tunnel and I can still will deal with OTR if survivors are running it. The change will make everyone run OTR+DS which all killers will be dealing with regardless if you play nice or sweaty. The only difference between playing sweaty vs nice is the frequency that you have to deal with the perks.
DS+BT at hook was dumb before. The survivor getting saved would always body block because if you tunnel them they had DS. Now with DS not working at endgame survivors will try to force the DS since you lose it either way. OTR makes it so survivors can now take that situation and take it else where in the map. If I get unhooked with OTR+DS+UB why am I not going 2 tiles over and body blocking the killer twice? If the gens are about to be finished my DS is turning off regardless. Is that somehow not the correct play for the survivor? And if so, that means a killer playing nice now has to deal with this buff.
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So back to the old meta but BT received a small buff of going from 12 seconds to 80 with IW and Distortion added to it. That seems really fun to deal with on all 4 survivors. Gunna just play survivor and run DH, DS, OTR, and UB.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3686762#Comment_3686762
IIRC he said when DS was nerfed it was weak and did like an experiment to show that it does virtually nothing against most killers (not just Nurse and Blight, but most of them). Now he’s saying that same untouched perk is somehow good… against killers those same killers—some of which have received buffs? 🧐
Old DS made it so you weren't punished if you went down in the open since you could just hold w and go somewhere safe. If you use the nerfed version the same way it is garbage. If you DS a Demo in the open the perk does literally nothing but a slight inconvenience to the killer, however if you end up going down before reaching that next loop you all of a sudden get to reset that chase. If that reset ends up adding 30 seconds additional to the chase then theoretically if 3 survivors were all working on separate gens your extension of that single chase you would have added an extra 90 charges to gens. As a comparison Pain Res Removes 90c if you hook all 4 survivors on a scourge hook.
Nurse is the only Killer that truly doesn't care about DS since she is all about maintaining distance and you getting to a pallet means nothing to her. I even think the blight streak that was lost had a massive DS value happen in that game since it happened at a pallet.
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The perk is objectively good. The entire problem with the perk just really comes down to it being useless vs certain killers or not saving you in dead zones, since the stun doesn't let survivors just hold w mindlessly for an extended amount of time.
If all killers are doing is tunneling then the correct build would be running DS and OTR. If you face killers that are like Nurse and Blight then DH would be a great exhaustion perk and DS is needed for you to be able to reset endurance, and lower tier killers you can run any exhaustion perk and DS is going to have great results once you proc it. Since OTR means the killer has to eat an endurance you really are fine when you get the DS proc unless the entire map has the pallets thrown.
Hard to say the perk that has a place in the META isn't good. With hundreds of bad perks in this game only a few are really worth running, and DS is one of those perks.
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@SolidRazo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3683954#Comment_3683954
Yeah but they will probably never make survivors ghosts when unhooked due to it not making sense. No scratch marks and no blood isn’t meh it works pretty well while using “babysitter” and it genuinely confuses the killer when they try looking for the unhooked survivor. The mechanic would be slightly map dependent but I think that is fine.
Babysitter is great if survivors make the mistake of healing under hook with the killer not in a chase. If a Killer comes back to hook and tunnels it usually is a survivor mistake, and they should be leaving hook asap and have the person that saved being aggressive.
The mechanic would do nothing if the killer proxy camps or on maps that are open where the killer would have an idea of what direction the injured survivor went and then tracking them down due to injured noises. I would think you would have to make the mechanic last for at least 15-20 seconds and make it also remove 100% of injured noises for it to be effective.
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Throw OTR on top and be a ghost. Would be extremely hard for a killer to tunnel a survivor that makes zero noise and leaves no scratch marks/blood. Without something like OTR It would be meh. Problem with doing something like this probably comes down to maps. Indoor maps would insane with this mechanic but outdoor maps might have it do very little.
Probably just be better to have survivors go into a different realm for 10 seconds where other survivors can see and interact with them but the killer can't. That would fix the consistency issue while also avoiding any abuse the survivor can do as much as possible.
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Don't see it being better than DS+OTR, and running a full anti-tunnel build doesn't make sense. It is in some ways an anti-tunnel perk but that mostly comes from the condition to activate being synergistic with OTR.
What made MFT so strong was the fact you could continuously leave gens early while injured resulting in a slightly less effective SB that had no CD and in addition to that would gave amazing value in chase at times. You could then pair it with DH to ignore the only really downside the perk was suppose to have.
If you want a good anti-tunnel build then DH, DS, and OTR really cover all the bases for tunneling and different types of killers. Throwing MFT on top really does nothing outside of your low-mid tier killers, which you shouldn't be having an issue in the first place.
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Things like camping and tunneling should be in the game. It is healthy that if survivors don't heal the killer can proxy camp to punish that. Survivors should in general want to avoid the killer and not try to force an anti-tunnel mechanic as an offense move. The problem with tunneling and camping really comes from the fact that spreading hooks is the only other option and is not only less effective but also harder.
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@xltechno said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3661484#Comment_3661484
I see.....
Adds OTR to Survivor's base kit and maintains it for 80 seconds regardless of actions. Instead, survivors with this effect activated will receive a 30% debuff on all actions.
During this time, it is better for the Sweaty Killer to leave the Survivor alone, so many Killers will remove them from their targets. If the survivor is still tunneled, it's just a traffic accident. The frequency will drop significantly.
This proposed adjustment is a win-win, buffing both Killers and Survivors.
Isn't the correct play from the survivor is to just increase the chase time for the next chase then? You have a free health state and do gens much slower. Why wouldn't you take that free health state and help the survivor that is in chase making the next down take longer. This delays downs and makes gens go faster since there is less interruption. Best way to slow gens down is forcing survivors off gens constantly because they need to unhook.
You then have the issue of OTR not working with BT, and if you change that then survivors can body block with BT and have OTR in their back pocket.
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I think survivors are just in need of a rework. They are balanced around having to use exhaustion and I don't really see there being any room to innovation in that space. So 25% of survivors perk slots are basically always going to be the same thing with no room for new and exciting perks. We saw them try to go outside the box with MFT and it backfired. Hard to see them being able to create something that is healthy, new, and worth running over other perks for that slot.
Aura reading is basically just WoO, Bond, and Kindred. What mechanics can they add into the game that can compete with these perks? If you are running WoO, what aura reading perk can they make that makes you want to swap and isn't problematic and/or just power creep?
Healing perks seems to have very little room for innovation. So we either get power creep or perks that are not worth using.
It feels like adding new perks for the role doesn't do anything unless it is power creep. COH and MFT were really the only new perks added in years that actually saw long term use. It was nice on the survivor side but miserable for killer.
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So is shred pallet breaking buffed or not? Why is barb's glasses getting adjusted to reflect the changes when there is no changes mentioned about the pallet breaking speed.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3649121#Comment_3649121
How buffing DS is bad idea? Ofcourse it won't stop the tunneller killers but it will give chance to survivor to waste more of their times which is good value.
It is an anti-tempo/tunnel perk that also allows survivors to mindlessly dive bomb hooks and have BT to body block and then DS to "punish" the killer if they go after them. I would eat DS even though I wouldn't tunnel in games because of those things or survivors playing super aggressive with trying to get saves because they had DS+UB.
Because of all of that I would say buffing the perk and having those things pop up would be worse compared to the devs trying to fix it at base. I personally find eating anti-tunnel perks when you are play nice to feel extremely bad. So it is helping one problem(most likely still a common tactic though) but creating others issues in the process.
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Killers tunnel because it is the best way to win. Even if you nerf tunneling, it will still be prominent if it continues to be the best way to win. SBMM made the game more sweaty, and players are going for wins rather than having fun like back in the day.
This is also why buffing DS is such a bad idea. It causes its own problems and if it doesn't make tunneling worse than the alternatives then killers will still be doing it.
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@JeanGreyarea said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3647750#Comment_3647750
No one ran that perk when it was just those two effects before the endurance buff
Why would anyone run old OTR when you could run old Iron will? IW was considered a top 5 perk before the nerf, and OTR still retains the 100% silence but on a timer.
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Insta saw was stacking charge speed, and I think his brown version gave 12% alone. Think yellow+brown charge speed ended up giving 30% charge speed. You could also use tinkerer to increase that further.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
As already mentioned, there is not really any good Anti-Tunnel Perk in the game. This spot was used by DS (even tho it was not really good at Anti-Tunnel either). But nowadays Killers would probably push through a 5 second-DS as well since the reward for tunneling is just too big and it is too easy to do.
Any Anti-Tunnel which resolves around Endurance will just be negated by hitting the unhooked Survivor. OTR might have a long duration, but it is gone after one hit. Which is just not good design that the Killer can negate multiple Perks which should help against tunneling by just hitting the Survivor off hook.
IMO the best Build currently to avoid tunneling is probably a Stealth-Build. You cannot be tunneled if you are not being found and I see an increase in Stealth-Perks nowadays. Which is understandable, because you are most likely the first dead if you are found first.
Any Anti-Tunnel which resolves around Endurance will just be negated by hitting the unhooked Survivor. OTR might have a long duration, but it is gone after one hit. Which is just not good design that the Killer can negate multiple Perks which should help against tunneling by just hitting the Survivor off hook.
The problem is it is equally bad design to have a perk in the game where survivor can play bad and punish the killer for punishing the bad plays. Survivors before could just dive bomb hooks and if the killer would go and contest it they would be faced with BT into DS.
IMO the best Build currently to avoid tunneling is probably a Stealth-Build. You cannot be tunneled if you are not being found and I see an increase in Stealth-Perks nowadays
A good reason why OTR is crazy since you get distortion and Iron will in the same perk slot.
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Don't really see why someone would bring DS over OTR unless you are running DH. DS is terrible vs the top killers and OTR's silencing effect is amazing vs killers like Nurse or Spirit.
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@xEa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3636611#Comment_3636611
True but not only that. You as a solo player dont know what every other survivor is capable off. Or what their playstyle is. Even tho in a friendly non tryhard SWF group, everybody knows whats going on, so they can adapt. If someone is a good looper, this person can take the heat while those who are good in finding and repairing gens do that job. Just an example.
You as a solo player dont know what every other survivor is capable off.
I would think knowing what build you are running would be helpful in identifying what type of survivor you are, but why can't we show all survivors what everyone is running? Well survivors will dodge lobbies if they don't like those builds. But doesn't that then raise a different question in if that is the case why are those survivors even be matched in the first place?
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@xEa said:
The question is, how to fix solo queue? We already got more or less all the meaningful buffs. The HUD shows exactly what everybody is doing and therefore it shows what everybody is supposed to do in the current situation.
Sure, basekit kindred for solo survivors might be an option, but this wont still be the ultimate solution since the main advantages of SWF come with the voice coordination, especially for specific situations.
Unless they add an ingame voicechat (i would HATE that) i dont see a good solution to Solo queue. Solo feels sometimes so bad because you never know what teammates you get. Some are just in for the BPs, some want to win and some have a daily quest and only care for that.
The entire problem when it comes to soloq is the fact you never get 4 equally skilled survivors a game. You also have challenges that want you to throw the game. This MM has terrible agency for a solo player.
They could make challenges not require survivors to throw the match and have MM based of the players performance instead of the team. Old emblem based matchmaking was miles better on reset compared to what we currently have.
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You'd be running CI in that build rather than GE. If you were to run GE then you would just lose games by struggling to get your first down with zero slowdown for your early game. The way you counter that build is to not go down fast and split on gens.
If you split hooks on survivors to get max value from that build you will have 4 survivors up the entire game which they will overcome your slowdown or you tunnel 1 survivor out which you have no good slowdown during that time.
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@Phin said:
It shouldn't even be a thing in the first place, the whole thing about STFBL is it's strong if it reach full stack but can be countered by (smart) obsession taking hits, the fact that killers can bypass the counter by using M2 is so dumb.
The counter for m2 killers is just different. You get slower stacks but have an easier time at keeping them. The obsession also can make it so you still can't chase them as m2 since they can loop unsafe tiles that force the m1, which will hurt significantly more when you have a slower stack gain.
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They don't chip away at problems when it comes to killers. So I would think they are taking so long because it's a addon pass with a collision rework.
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DBD and TCM are really not competitors. TCM is a game where they want players to have fun. DBD is the game where all the hardstuck bronze players go to not feel like they are terrible at every game while the devs do balance through spreadsheets since it requires the least amount of effort. DBD hasn't cared about fun for years now and it seems that isn't changing any time soon.
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I wouldn't say his best addon is getting nerfed into the ground since it still gives aura reading for everyone while traveling, but I will say that it is fkin HILARIOUS how they are going out of their way to nerf Demo when even a killer like a tunneling Wesker is a way bigger issue. naw screw Demo bro fk that dude much deserved nerf. Oh wait don't worry with the addon that encourages you to use portals way more we are going to give you a bunch of worthless placebo buffs to portals which do piss all. That makes up for the nerf =)
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You wouldn't really killswitch her but in what world do you not just gut the killer while you wait to get a rework for her?
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Iri head is honestly just a bad addon after the nerfs. Huntress is already very strong at camping and iri head doesn't really change anything. She gets good value from the addon if you lock your animation but once you know she has the addon you just try to force the injure. If she misses once she gets punished hard, and I think it isn't even a remotely good addon compared to being able to have 7 hatchets. I don't find it be be problematic like before when she could have 3 1-shot downs.
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@hmeekins said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3512328#Comment_3512328
i never said he could just recall them though. I said he would have to go and manually break the portal similar to survivors. If the demogorgon was able to walk around the map and break all of his old portals and then proceed to place two portals on each of the final gens before survivors finish a gen or at the very least makes enough progress to properly pressure the killer that sounds like a skill issue.
I missed that part. I guess that wouldn’t buff the 3 gen stuff, but what would that change really accomplish? The thing is even if you make a mistake placing a portal I never find myself running out of portals in the first place. If you have to walk over to grab a portal I would think that would be more harmful than anything since it would bait players into making mistakes.
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@hmeekins said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3511055#Comment_3511055
How would him being able to destroy his portals buff his three-gen?
You would be able to portal the last gens and have back-up portals for each gen. You can't do this now unless you do nothing but play for the 3 gen. If the survivors have a good gen spread then they can just destroy the portal you placed on the gen and force you to walk back to replace that portal, but if you can recall you portals then destroying the portals doesn't make sense since Demo will just tp to the second portal at that gen.
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NGL but looks like a nerf with some placebo buffs.
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I think it should stay since it is miserable to go against and that seems to be what the devs are trying to accomplish.
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If they let you destroy the portals I would think that does nothing but buff the 3 gen bs Demo can do.
I think a nice QOL/buff for Demo portals would be a portal placement speed. You already have to be in a area for the portal mechanic but then you also get hit with the sluggish setting time on a chase killer that just feels better using that mechanic sparingly.
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Used it on Demo and it seemed good with high STBFL stacks since it can be the difference of being able to squeeze a quick follow-up shred. Don't see how it would be good on m1 killers since you no longer gain bloodlust and I can't see rapid brutaily being better than bamboozle or another slow down perk.
The killers that need BL the most are the m1 killers and Rapid removing BL really makes in unappealing. Maybe if you go bam with the combo for 3 chase perks it could be great for m1 killers. Another thing to keep in mind is if survivors stay injured you lose half your build.
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Funny that the only change that has an actual impact on Demo was the nerf.
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Players bringing up winning is the exact reason why this game is in such a terrible state now. It is about the experience that was had and I see a bunch of ppl saying how he was making mistakes or he wins all the time in quick play mode.
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I don't think they want the game to be what it was in the past. Sadly old dbd is gone and this current form seems to be what is staying. Thankfully TCM is what old dbd felt like so it's nice that it is coming out this month.
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Yea MFT is not broken but what about SC! I see this perk about zero times ever but it still has a 13% pick rate. Let's hurry up devs and nerf this perk out of the meta!
Bad data is worse than no data, and this data is worthless to draw any conclusion from.
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@LeFennecFox said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3500145#Comment_3500145
Singularity has a good design his power just has a little too much counterplay for what it actually offers
Yea I guess that's true that he's more of an issue with balance rather than design.
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M2 Demo
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3.0 recovery * .95 = 2.85 seconds. This means old save would remove .15s per stack
2.7 recovery * .95 = 2.565 seconds. That makes it a .135s per stack
full stacks old- 3.0 x.6=1.8
full stacks current- 2.7x.6=1.62
Difference between the two are .18s
New save is basically 9 stacks of old STBFL when at full stacks. You start at 2 stacks and need 8 additional stacks to gain 7.
The change I think should only happen is to bridge the gap between SWF and Soloq where at 4 stacks the survivors are now notified the killer is running the perk since at that point it is easy to tell if the killer is running that perk and communicated that information across the team.
Demo already scales better by not running the perk, and actually the only really a good choice for the perk is on the m1 killers which are basically all at the bottom in terms of power.
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I had an access violation and it was because of bad ram. I would say you should go and download HCI memtest and do multiple ones to use all ram and see if there are any errors.
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Honestly it would be a banger if it played just like Demo and instead of portals we get an egg mechanic that is something like what Wesker has with his infections. This should be an easy slam dunk for them to nail since we already know the Demo/Wesker archetype is amazing.
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Quantity over quality for killer design sadly. I would say since Blight release we've only had 2 good designed killers come out (Dredge and Wesker) and I think in this fall Blight is 3 years old.
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I would bet on Pennywise. Seen some videos on why it could be a thing and it would be a massive grab for the game.
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@not_requested49 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3496923#Comment_3496923
Agree... like the killer DCs and the game ends but all the survivors DC and the killer has to play a bot match?
Yea, which is dumb since before if all 4 dc you are leaving the game but now you are forced into a bot match or have to eat a dc penalty. I would say the mechanic is good if only one survivor dc's and is negative once there is more than that. Like with even 2 you could end the game fairly quick and move on to your next game by finding and camping the first survivor you find compared to now where you need to play a full game out. In a situation like that I just want to leave and find a new match asap and shouldn't be punished.
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I really hate the bot feature. Games would be over and end faster before but now they are still over but drag out way more. I've had a game last an extra 5 minutes compared to last patch while still having the same result, and it is god awful to have to deal with that experience. Like you know the game is over and you have to just sit there and waste your time for no good reason. If this stays they need to let players dc and keep the point that they accumulated during the match once someone leaves.
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Feels like one of the hardest killers in the game and only seems to be B tier.
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Running perks are free while addons are not. If I'm having easy games I feel like I'm wasting addons since I don't need them for the games. Games that are one-sided are boring so dropping addons can also give increase in difficulty with the positive of not using a limited resource.
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@solarjin1 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3492465#Comment_3492465
well u still got no one left behind for some extra bp
🤣