DBDVulture
DBDVulture
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3371642#Comment_3371642
Nothing Windows of Opportunity does allows survivors to accomplish anything they couldn't without the perk.
Iron Will took away the killer's ability to track by sound.
They are radically different with Iron Will being far, far more impactful.
That's an opinion - and one I do not agree with.
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@NerfDeadHardPLZ said:
Why don't Devs put rules if you quee as 4 man premade, such as each perk can only be brought once, even then it will still be OP but at least a bit better than what it is now, when you have 4 people running all meta perks and there is nothing a killer can do about it
A better rule would be : No perk/character/item/offering repeats.
It would be a very simple rule to prevent Bullying in DBD.
They will never put this rule into the game because "it would not feel fun" for survivors.
Who cares about fair play? The most important thing is to make sure the killer is the survivor's play thing.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3371672#Comment_3371672
Getting yourself bodyblocked by killer - especially by one with some kind of instakill is your fault and it serves you right for getting downed. WP by killer if it happens.
Bodyblocking for someone is one of very few things survivor can do to save tunneled person. Remove it and the game will be even more stale and feel much worse.
And I mean - remove bodyblocks, flash saves and sabo saves & the days for the game are numbered. These plays provide most dopamine rushes. Why even play the game where you get constantly camped + tunneled and all you can do is watch it from gen holding m1? Who would consider that fun? Why even bother at that point?
What you don't realize is that because Body blocking exists - it leads to more tunneling.
Most of the things survivors really love make killers really angry. This leads to more tunneling.
You are most likely a huge contributing cuase to making the killer feel like they need to tunnel every game.
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@tristenbennett381 said:
This tactic is so cheap, every time I carry someone a teammate will stand under the hook so I cant hook the person I’m carrying, when I hit them to get out of the way it always stalls for enough time to let the survivor struggle since I was already looking for a hook beforehand anyways.
Survivors should not be able to disable hooks just by standing under them to prevent you from hooking, it’s to unfair when they are at full health and takes away the one ability that a killer should always have.
Let's just call bodyblocking cheap and end the sentence there.
Is it fun when Plague pins you against the wall and vomits on you until you are broken and then instantly downs you? No.
Is it fun when survivors body block and make hits irrelevant? No.
Overall the game would feel a lot more fun if there were no bodyblocking.
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@Deathstroke said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3370850#Comment_3370850
If ideal stragedy to win is 5 hooks 120s will be too long if now it is 3 hooks before first kill. Would you believe me if I tell you I win many games with that stragedy even now and it's some cases better stragedy than just tunneling one survivor and ignoring everyone else as there is risk that one survivor loops you too long. But when you bit switch targets you can identifyi weak link.
Many killers are as well succesful with this kind of stragedy so giving killers massive buffs would be too much. That 120s sounds fine if we're balancing killer going for 8 hooks before first kill but that just should remain as showing skill expression. 100s gens would be more reasonable start and basekit mini deadlock. But probably survivors would need buff in 3vs1 as that just makes tunneling more viable that it currently is even with buffed ds. As it's still easier option than switching targets.
I seem to need to remind you that Oni is an outlier. Most killers cannot win in 5 hooks.
The only time I could win with 5 hooks is if I get one player to stage two on the first hook and then practically one hook everyone else.
For most of the killer cast you automatically lose any ability to contest harassment of the unhook while you are spending ~15 seconds hooking the next survivor. You do not have a ~9 m/s movement power to chase down the survivors who were just on the hook.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3370060#Comment_3370060
This would be fine for original chapter perks. There's little functional difference between paying 9000 IS for a character, or 2000 IS for one of their perks. Value differences sure, that's just a matter of personal preference/priorities. So why not provide this choice at all times?
I could definitely see this being an issue for licensed chapters though. Why would you buy the whole chapter, when you could just buy the Killer, and then grab the survivors perks from the Shrine?
They would probably have to charge AC for licensed perks instead of IS, if they were permanently available.
Alternatively: permanent catalogue for orginals, rotating shrine for licensed.
Or more likely: permanent catalogue of 3000 IS / 300 AC perks, plus rotating 'discounted' options that includes 2 originals and 2 licensed for 2000 IS each.
"I could definitely see this being an issue for licensed chapters though. Why would you buy the whole chapter, when you could just buy the Killer, and then grab the survivors perks from the Shrine?"
Your statement makes no sense. In the first place you can't buy Freddy with Shards.
Also let me remind you that the purpose of the shrine as defined by the developer Dave in 2016 is to give everyone access to DLC perks. In part this is a measure to make sure new DLC is not "pay to win".
The shrine is most definitely not doing that when Pinhead's perks have not been in the shrine over a year later.
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@not_requested49 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3366129#Comment_3366129
DS is useless now, OTR is also useless if the killer hits right off the hook, and Reassurance only applies to others, bot yourself, and they have to be close enough to where they can unhook you anyway
So all these anti tunnel perks you suggest are moot, 2 seconds does not give you enough time to do much of anything
-"So all these anti tunnel perks you suggest are moot"
Using Reassurance one time gives your team +2 minutes because it gives +30 seconds to four players. This is the same as the killer using pre nerf Pop goes the weasel six times.
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@Jackal7879 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3371061#Comment_3371061
I mean monstrous shrine is the reassurance for killers
and since DS got nerf it has never been easier to tunnel a survivor out with off the record just simply hit them off hook and that completely get rid of it and when you get add ons into the mix like pin heads original pain that literally gets rid of the perk
And y’all basically did with eruption
and honestly, can you answer how many reassurances do you see every time you play killer?
"I mean monstrous shrine is the reassurance for killers"
Monstrous Shrine is more like Fast track for killers. But unlike survivors we do not have 7 perks to hasten a survivor's death. If we did we might see 35 second hook timers. Then sure Reassurance needs to be a big part of the game.
-"can you answer how many reassurances do you see every time you play killer?"
Once is too many because Reassurance is a force multiplier. Use it once and 4 players get 30 seconds. That's +2 minutes to the enemy team.
This is the same time savings as the killer using Pop goes the weasel pre nerf six times.
And you want to say : this perk needs to be buffed.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3371144#Comment_3371144
Let me sketch out how the conversation is going right now:
"Can we nerf X?"
"No, X is not a problem."
"But it's got a high pickrate and killer perks with high pickrates often get nerfed!"
"Pickrates work differently for survivors and killers."
"But Y got nerfed for its high pickrate!"
"Actually, it got nerfed because it was terrible game design."
"But some killers are weak!"
?????
"Also, Z used to have a really high pickrate (before it was nerfed), so why can't we nerf X? (Which has a lower pickrate)"
??????????
Are you actually here to talk about Windows of Opportunity or are you just venting in bulk?
That might be your take on the conversation.
The windows buff allows the very best players to loop better.
Iron Will did the same thing and had an almost identical pick rate.
You can say whatever you like but both of these are true statements.
Windows might be fine in a world where the pallets follow the Scott Jund dream patch notes and all maps are 9000m² or smaller. Nerf windows until these things are true and then when we have reached that map utopia - restore windows to what it does now.
I would be perfectly ok with that.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3370800#Comment_3370800
I'm not actually. I'll offer a clarification : lead to a perception of more wins. If you scroll up you can re-read where I explain how their stats can easily be spoofed because of how the chase system works.
Of course, stats being inaccurate only works in a way that favours your argument and never against it.
When NOED and RUIN were nerfed it was done as a result of "pickrate" more than anything else without even considering if it was effective.
No, NOED needed a rework because it was garbage game design, and Ruin was actually really powerful. That's not to say Ruin didn't get overnerfed, but it did deserve a nerf.
The same consideration is not given to killer.
No, because killers, such as yourself, blow a gasket over literally anything but are mum about the stuff that is -actually- unfun to play against. You don't get what you want because what you want is for the game to be broken beyond belief.
Do you deny:
Windows allows a survivor to be able to spam pallets in an unhealthy way.
Yes. Obviously.
Because anything done by a survivor with Windows of Opportunity can also be done by a survivor without it. Objectively, Windows is not the problem there. It makes it easier, sure, but it's objectively weaker than a huge number of nigh pointless survivor perks.
What you are complaining about will not be solved with the removal of Windows of Opportunity. You will still get pallet-slammed. You will still get taken from pallet to pallet.
Nurse/Blight are viable. There fixed your sentence for you. If you'd like to disagree then how about I arrange a KYF game where you play against a team with ~25000 hours? They pick the map and your killer. No iri addons or items.
Jeeze, dude, if you don't want to engage with the argument, just say nothing at all instead of taking a hard left turn into a completely different territory to have a different, completely unrelated whinge.
Are you actually trying to make the argument:
A perk used by 35% of killers probably needs adjustment but a perk used by the top 75% of survivors is fine.
"an extremely high pick rate killer perk is much more likely to actually be OP than a survivor perk with the same pick rate"
Spec-effing-tacular.
You really are the new Lord_Tony/Killer Sluzzy. Except even Sluzzy's arguments are better than yours.
-"No, NOED needed a rework because it was garbage game design"
Here we can agree because DBD has a garbage game design. NOED used to be the great equalizer in that you were hard to get for the entire game and then it was "revenge time". If you want to make it so that M1 killers get downs like Nurse/Blight (very quickly) and NOED is weak - fine.
What is completely unacceptable is to keep weak killers in a pathetic state of balance. Why should I play any killer besides Nurse/Blight if those are the only fair killers?
-"killers, such as yourself, blow a gasket over literally anything but are mum about the stuff that is -actually- unfun to play against."
I have always asked for the game to be fair to both sides. The problem is that a large number of people want the game to favor their side at the expense of the other.
"an extremely high pick rate killer perk is much more likely to actually be OP than a survivor perk with the same pick rate"
As I said before- there are no killer perks with a 75% pick rate. Dead Hard of course still has a near 75% pick rate in top tier games.
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@Wewantjason said:
That map was the final nail for me as killer. Taking atleast a week off to come back and see if killer is still worth playing. Just too many nerfs back to back with survivor
red forest went from being an amazing survivor map to a better survivor map. What did killers get? Scream perk nerfs >_>
My game crashes if survivors use an offering to pick this map. I'm really lucky that happens.
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@Marc_go_solo said:
I have to disagree here with regards to your comments on the gen spawns. There is a viable way of making them more evenly distributed without creating even more issues. It's already a system in place with the sacrificial hooks.
The hooks currently have a set distance they need to be minimally spaced between each of them. The branch offerings either increase or decrease the spacing and there are many around the map. There are only 7 generators to take into consideration.
The same system can be put into place for the gens. It may already be in place, but if so the values clearly aren't correct. RPD is a perfect example, as I shouldn't need to use just one flight of stairs to get to 1 gen from the other. Each map could have a distance value between gens in relation to its size. It's a method that would balance it better, IMO.
As for the Skull Merchant, perhaps put in place something to make the exposed part fairer. With 3-gen situations, her drones can more or less guarantee an exposed status along the area. Maybe have an RNG in place for how far drones are apart to activate exposed? That way, the Skull Merchant has to choose between information gathering and fast knockdowns.
3-gens is a valid tactic and you're right a change to the Skull Merchant is needed, but gens can be looked at and a better RNG value on them would make the balance fairer.
-"There is a viable way of making them more evenly distributed without creating even more issues."
Some of the maps in DBD already have fair map distributions. Largely speaking the only fair maps are those that are smaller than 9000m².
Small maps allow killers with normal speed to patrol and chase without issue. The same killers on a large map must immediately play : 3 gen or gtfo. Nobody enjoys the game that follows. Any map that has a "3 gen or GTFO" map scheme is not fair. Any map that has stupidly linked tiles is not fair. Any map that has way too many pallets is not fair.
Each of these three reasons makes Dead Dawg, Coal Tower and "The Game" unfair maps even though they are small sized.
Wrecker's yard is literally the perfectly fair map. There are multiple possible 3 gen locations. The map has strong pallets but not too many. The map is small so at least once per game you will be chasing player one and end up chasing player two as well. That "double" chase effect is what makes DBD fair as a 4v1 game. Large maps completely delete this as an option - so the killer just tunnels and 3 gens.
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@HugTechLover said:
My god they obliterated that map for blight. I could hardly traverse the map, as there is just SO MUCH STUFF just randomly placed.
And that main building… damn near an infinite when you tie all the windows in.
What an awful map.
Just wait until more people figure out how to turn the upstairs drop to the window into an infinite loop.
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@Jackal7879 said:
Ok before people say it’s one of the strongest perks in the game which I do agree on some level. The effect is strong but the requirements is to activate it is what drags the perk down I mainly talking about the distance (6m) you basically have to touch the survivor on hook and some killers you can literally go down in front of the hook depending on killer power/add ons and perks.basement it doesn’t even work from upstairs unless it’s the one hook closest to the stairs and if it’s leather face you are pretty much down if you try to get value
the buff should be
can be activated from 12m-15m
and maybe make the effects last 45s
and make it to were you can activate it with hook stages NOT instances
and maybe buff kinship time to 50s and to activate after hook animation scream like Reassurance
if you don’t camp you won’t even feel the effects of this perks and it gives more value for a soloq survivor who wants to bring this perk for a support build and before you say swf can abuse this once again if you don’t camp you won’t notice these perks if you camp at 5/4 gens then you will feel these perks and that’s if they are even in play
That my idea for buffs for Reassurance and perks like Reassurance
-"people say it’s one of the strongest perks in the game which I do agree on some level"
So you realize it's already incredibly strong but that's not enough?
Reassurance should only be usable once every time you are hooked. Cycling it multiple times is not fair to the killer because it denies any sense of urgency for the rescue.
Reassurance might be "ok" if we had some kind of base mechanic where when only one survivor is on the hook the generator with the most progress is blocked as long as the killer is 16m away from the hook. Furthermore while that generator is blocked it will regress as if the killer had kicked it (activating any perks that modify gen regression speeds but not perks like dragons grip).
@Nos37 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3371034#Comment_3371034
The killer carries a survivor down into the basement. A survivor upstairs reassures immediately after the hook (through the floor with the increased range) and runs off. Now, when the killer leaves, whether the killer finds the survivor who reassured or not, the survivor on the hook has 90 seconds before the next stage. The killer DID NOT CAMP, and yet is still punished for it.
The other survivors have 90 seconds to unhook instead of 60, buying them more time to do gens before they have to hop off the gen to rescue. That's where the abuse comes in. Worse if the hooked survivor has Deliverance ready and waits until the 89th second.
-"Now, when the killer leaves, whether the killer finds the survivor who reassured or not, the survivor on the hook has 90 seconds before the next stage. The killer DID NOT CAMP, and yet is still punished for it."
And this is a clear explanation of why the perk is too strong.
Where is the killer version of Reassurance?
The killer should have a perk that reads : after kicking a generator survivors cannot touch that generator until 30 seconds have passed. The perk has no cooldown but is limited by how fast the killer can move around the map.
Explain to me why you need more time on the hook? You already got that for free years ago. Hook stages used to be 45 seconds. The result of giving survivors +15 seconds meant they could hold m1 on generators for 14 seconds longer than normal.
Did the killer get any compesnation for hook stages being longer? No.
Survivors recently got free borrowed time for 10 seconds as part of their base kit. The killer got nothing to prevent survivors from tunneling generators but survivors got free base kit tunnel protection. That's not right.
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@PalletMuncher said:
I feel the abundance of pallets in the more recent maps like "Shattered Square" and older maps like "The Game" I think those maps highlight the issue of Brutal Strength not making much of a difference in chase when it comes to stopping a survivor reaching the next loop or catching up to them fast enough to really impact a chase. Dead by Daylight also has a variety of killers that have pallet breaking abilities baked into their kit having no need to run this perk.
I suggest that Brutal Strength has it's numbers bumped to 35% to give M1 killers with no pallet breaking abilities in their kit a much better time dealing with pallets and make a bigger impact in chase while giving killers with pallet breaking capabilities a cool option select on whether to use their power or commit to the break animation.
Buff Brutal strength :
In addition to what it does add - every 60 seconds you can break one pallet with a lunge attack.
/Fixed.
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@JustAShadow said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3370981#Comment_3370981
I disagree, I think Eruption was the most unhealthy slowdown perk since the old old Ruin, it encouraged killers to take completely stupid chases and get value from it, especially against people without comms and even with comms it wasn't always possible to outplay it. Also incapacitated effect is just too obnoxious to verse to be on a perk that easily activatable and especially lasting for 25 seconds. Better example of a perk combo that encouraged killers to go for chases was Ruin Undying but sadly Ruin got completely gutted.
I agree that the inability to do anything for 25 seconds was "not fun" and punished solo players.
Why not just make the perk prevent the affected generators from being able to be touched for 30 seconds? The perk still rewards chases and helps protect generators.
Every perk that has encouraged the killer to do something other than tunnel gets nerfed into the ground.
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@JustAShadow said:
Survivors have a few problematic perks and Windows is not one of them.
I could have said the same thing about eruption pre nerf.
It encouraged killers to go for chases because they had a reasonable chance to down someone and protect their generator.
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@BlueHorkew said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3370872#Comment_3370872
That's a map problem not the perk.
The perk didn't make you spawn in garden of joy or fractured cowshed.
So leave the perk that helps survivors in the most fun part of the game alone.
It's a problem when a perk makes an existing unfair map situation worse.
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@Technature said:
This is a weird request.
WoO isn't really that strong and there are better perks that should be looked at first.
Then again, Self Care isn't that good either.
######### it, let's nerf it.
Self Care already got nerfed in the 6.0 perk shakeup.
Historically Self Care required exactly the same time for your team if travel time were zero. If travel time were greater than zero this made old self care more efficient than an ally healing you.
Nice bait and switch though.
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@BlueHorkew said:
It's amazing that a perk that doesn't actually affect killer, doesn't buff survivors and only gives info to make survivors play better.
Killers hate the perk and think it's OP. This is so sad
The perk would not be a problem if we had fair maps. We do not have fair maps and the perk therefore allows the survivor to game the system vs M1 killers.
The solution to the problem for a killer player is to only play Nurse/Blight. Is that what you want?
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@jesterkind said:
When the topic of buffing the Trapper comes up, a very popular suggestion is to have him start with all his traps on hand, similar to the Trapper Sack addon without the associated downside of being unable to pick up any set traps again. This, in my opinion, is a bad idea, and I don't actually think the most common counterargument - that basement Trapper is unfun for survivors - is the most compelling reason why.
It is a reason, of course, but I think the more compelling argument for why Trapper should not start with all of his traps on hand has a lot more to do with the mechanical "power fantasy" vibe of what Trapper is designed to do.
To me, the point of the Trapper has everything to do with the careful placement of his traps and the juggling of how many you have on hand, because he's meant to be a tactical, careful, planning-ahead kind of killer. If he started with all of his traps, what would stop him from just brute-forcing a down and setting up around that first hook? More to the point, would new players even understand how he's designed to be played if they're never pushed to carefully consider their trap placements?
If a Trapper player is just capable of setting everything down around their first down, it flattens down all of the killer's nuance and interesting depth. It's exactly like the Artist: Her kit is very well designed with a super high skill ceiling, something that you can spend hours learning how to use and getting the placement + timings down perfectly, but... you could instead just place a bird at a loop and force the survivor to run away, and that's a lot easier. It's not more powerful, you're still rewarded for bothering to learn how to play her properly, but it's easy and it's simple and so that's what a lot of players do.
Now, that's not to say Trapper doesn't need any help. He could do with his traps starting closer to him, and he could do with having his setup time reduced through a number of other potential methods, but at his core he should always be a tactical killer that has to think ahead and actually care about how he uses his power. It's a matter of his identity more than his strength that I'm getting at here, and those two things are just as important as one another.
This combined with the fact that things like basement Trapper just aren't very engaging for the survivor side is why I don't think he should start with all of his traps. There's a hundred other things that'd be a much better fix for his current problems, in my opinion.
Trapper should start with 4 traps in hand and 4 should be toward the middle of the map not the far corners like it can be on swamp.
Is the goal to make him suck less or be an A tier killer?
If the goal is "A tier killer" then he needs:
- Basekit bloody coil. Buff this effect to give deep wounds to a survivor already injured.
- Rework bloody coil iri addon as follows (pick one): A) Bear traps cannot be disarmed except via toolbox or sabotage skill; bear traps can only be disarmed otherwise by stepping in them. B) Bear traps are invisible until the survivor is 1m from their hitbox range. From this distance until the player touches the hit box they slowly "fade in".
- Restore the bear trap 2016 hitbox which was about 50% larger than it is now. Increase the size of the trap if necessary to make them overlap
- Rework trapper sack to give Trapper +2 traps in hand on game start and +1 trap on map.
- Increase base speed to 120% (do this to all M1 killers) OR buff Brutal Strength to read : additionally once per 60 seconds you may break a pallet instantly with a lunge attack.
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@Deathstroke said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3370815#Comment_3370815
Nurse is actually fine with controller survivors can just spin more easily your hits that is probably biggest difference. Oni could be fine with few buffs on console that is all I ask so why you don't want that?
I don't think basekit ds is unreasonable if killers are buffed bit and gens made slower that in fact would help most killers as we don't all always play optimally/tunnel. Even if you tunnel new ideal stragedy 5 hooks before first kill should not be unreasonable amount and you can still tunnel but you do have to eat ds.
-"Even if you tunnel new ideal stragedy 5 hooks before first kill should not be unreasonable amount and you can still tunnel but you do have to eat ds."
What's the base generator completion time going to be? 120 seconds? Do killers get base kit 1:1 regression?
Your argument boils down to : I can't play Oni as well as a PC player therefore buff Oni.
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@Johnagon_Infinity said:
Billy is in a horrible state since his rework. He is extremely weak. His power is absurdly difficult to use and each new realm rework seems to screw him over harder and harder with the amount of junk collision they keep adding. The latest culprit, Red Forest, has absurd hitboxes for damn-near everything. After the removal of SkyBilly, there's but a scant few Billy players who actually linger around anymore.
BHVR has done a pretty good job of almost out-right deleting Billy from the game. I'll keep this post short and simple, but rest assured, I could absolutely write many paragraphs about BHVR's incompetence when it comes to how they've handled Billy.
To start: yes, overheat sucks. It is a dumb, absolutely worthless mechanic that makes a mid-tier killer even more frustrating and difficult for new players to use. You could remove this mechanic completely from this killer and he'd still suck. Why? Because his basekit is garbage. His base movement speed is slow, his stun duration is unnecessarily punishing and damn-near all of his addons are terrible. He even has some addons that have a buff, with an even bigger debuff. Like.... hello? What the hell?
I am so glad BHVR's killer design philosophy has looked at the failure of Billy and moved past it. No more garbage addons that have meme effects on the killer. No more addons that offer buff/debuff tradeoff, where the debuff is significant enough to warrant not using the item.
I literally get comments daily like "I can't believe someone actually still plays Billy. I never see him." or "I love a good Hillbilly, it's been forever since I versed him." Billy is one of the most beloved, difficult and rewarding killers in this game, and it's clear you've moved past caring about him.
BHVR, you've messed up a lot in the past. A lot. Not just Billy, but he is a glaring issue of when you thought you knew better than the community, and took something we all enjoyed and completely killed it. Show the community you still care, buff this beloved killer. Give him an addon rework and buff his basekit to make him useful again.
As of right now, the only addons Billy has that are worth buying are: Doom Engravings, Death Engravings, Tuned Carb (depends on the map), and Lopro chains.
-"Billy is in a horrible state since his rework. He is extremely weak"
Honest opinion: someone in marketing said - hey nobody is buying LF. Why not Nerf Billy so People buy LF?
Do yourself a favor and try this:
- Go to Shack.
- Have someone stand outside shack at the pallet.
- Have them duck and stand still
- You cannot be hit by Billy's Chainsaw
- ????? How was this made part of the game
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@Deathstroke said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3370042#Comment_3370042
I could think solution for tunneling basekit ds that disables after you hook someone else. Basekit ds should be 5s stun and it should disable killer power for 10s. So if you hook survivor A but go after someone else and hook survivor B now you can now after/hook A again. Well ds perk itself would stay activate if you manage down them both in under 60s. Probably also survivors should receive buff once game is 3vs1 as 100s gens would be too much in that situation.
Oni is weakest killer in the game at start of match so if he should not be 120% neither should anyone else be. Trapper at least has his traps. I've seen Otz looped all 5 gens before he got his power with Oni. He only won when survivors throwed and wanted to save their friend. Oni is killer which requires big missplays from good survivors to win.
Nurse has stronger power than Oni but can use it all the time why should it not be bit easier for Oni to get his power? I play on console so I can't use flicks, 180s hits maybe those should be removed im fine with that if he can get his power easier. Even good Oni would have hard time win games I lost some maps has just 100 safe pallets so what can m1 killer do to that?
Hold the phone!
You're saying let's remove flicks from Oni and buff Oni? Deal. Still no on the 20% movement speed though. I really hate to be that person but you can't be competitive on console with Nurse/Oni/Huntress compared to PC. Funny enough Rocket League has the inverse problem with the controller. You cannot be competitive without using one.
-"I could think solution for tunneling basekit ds that disables after you hook someone else."
This is beyond unreasonable. Allow me to offer you a counter deal that is equally unreasonable. Base kit as a killer if I kick a generator then that generator cannot be touched for 30 seconds and continues to regress. We will nerf Overcharge and CoB but the base killer regression will be moved to 1:1 regression relative to survivor repair rates if all four survivors are alive. Each player removed reduces the regression rate by 25% so that when three players are dead the killer would have the current level of regression (which is 1/4th of one survivor).
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@Caiman said:
I think WoO should have its range reduced. 16 to 24 meters sounds fine to me.
Keep the range as it is until you throw two pallets. Then give it a 60 second cooldown where you see no auras.
@Entitled_survivor said:
LMAO people thinking they have long chases because of windows blows my mind,,,
When tournament level players bring windows so they can attempt to punish when a killer tunnels - this reveals there is a problem with the perk in that it can be far more effective than DS.
@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3340119#Comment_3340119
Sure. And killer must be forced to swap target if he does not get that survivor in 1 minute. Oops. There's thing like tunneling and sometimes 1 survivor should be able to use ALL map resources and even this being the case the game is not fair for him...
There was an argument years ago on the developer discord. It went something like this:
"IF I am skilled enough to loop the killer forever then I should be allowed to loop the killer forever".
The resulting mechanic from this conversation gave us Bloodlust - and not what we see today in game. You could break a pallet and keep bloodlust with the old "super Bloodlust".
If you balance the game around allowing a survivor to loop for an extra minute then you would also need to have perks that regularly extend the length of multiple generators by 1 minute.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3329524#Comment_3329524
Almost every killer perk that has been used "too much" has been nerfed because it was picked too often and lead to more wins.
Glad to see you're already backpedaling away from an untenable position by adding the 'it must actually provide a meaningful winrate increase' stipulation, but you're going to have to backpedal a bit more.
There's 31 killers in the game and only 1 survivor.
If a perk is good on that survivor, it is good on all survivors.
If a perk is good on a killer, that doesn't immediately mean it is also good on other killers. It also doesn't necessarily mean that perk is the top pick for other killers, as it may be outperformed by a perk that better synergises with their power.
That is, if the perk is balanced. If a perk is OP, it's much more likely to take the top pick spot for multiple killers, even if those other killers have picks that specifically synergise with them (Think Hoarder/Franklin's on Pinhead) and even if the perk itself doesn't necessarily synergise with them.
Basically, an extremely high pick rate killer perk is much more likely to actually be OP than a survivor perk with the same pick rate. Consequence of an asymmetrical game.
-"Glad to see you're already backpedaling"
I'm not actually. I'll offer a clarification : lead to a perception of more wins. If you scroll up you can re-read where I explain how their stats can easily be spoofed because of how the chase system works.
When NOED and RUIN were nerfed it was done as a result of "pickrate" more than anything else without even considering if it was effective. More important was the concept of "how does it make survivors feel" when they play against it. The same consideration is not given to killer. DS was allowed to be in a broken state for about 5 years. DH is still broken.
Do you deny:
Windows allows a survivor to be able to spam pallets in an unhealthy way.
-"There's 31 killers in the game and only ...."
Nurse/Blight are viable. There fixed your sentence for you. If you'd like to disagree then how about I arrange a KYF game where you play against a team with ~25000 hours? They pick the map and your killer. No iri addons or items.
-"an extremely high pick rate killer perk is much more likely to actually be OP than a survivor perk with the same pick rate"
This is not logical and bordering on strawman. What was the dead hard pick rate before the shake up among good survivors? It was ~75% usage. Borrowed time had a similar pick rate among top level survivors but not quite that high.
There was no killer perk with a 75% pickrate ever other than the use of NOED in 2016 because it was literally the best perk in the entire history of the game (and there were fewer perks). If you had NOED then you used NOED. People that didn't use NOED were not using it because they did not have it yet.
Are you actually trying to make the argument:
A perk used by 35% of killers probably needs adjustment but a perk used by the top 75% of survivors is fine.
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@mr_Beast_Artist said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3336627#Comment_3336627
What a joy it is to hold someone hostage at the top yeeeeeeeeee what an interesting gameplay.
Doors should be randomly generated and there should not be such words that only the killer should use this passage.
You are a real egoist and I am sure that you stand near the hooks toxic and nod spoiling the game for everyone.
As I said, it is necessary that both teams can interact with the doors or let them make walls there since no one wants to break these passages
-"What a joy it is to hold someone hostage at the top yeeeeeeeeee what an interesting gameplay."
When you play killers that are not Nurse/Blight the game devolves to I have to tunnel or 3/4 people get away every time if they are efficient.
-"there should not be such words that only the killer should use this passage."
Sorry but hard disagree unless you want to make all maps smaller than 9000m² or you want to make a "killer only path/teleport" for every map larger than 9000m².
"you stand near the hooks toxic and nod spoiling the game for everyone."
I don't stand near hooks to be toxic. I stand near hooks to apply pressure esepcially when I am defending my 3 gen.
Last night I played a game on coal tower - which is a very survivor sided map despite its small size. There was a 4 gen around main and the middle of the map. Any time a chase started everyone automatically went towards shack. Everyone knew this was a literal get out of jail free card.
But at one point I had everyone hurt and two people on death hook. At great risk tried to finish one generator and this let me get one person slugged. Then I kicked the gen that was ~80% and no one dared touch it. I got a quick chase on someone with 1 hook already while I did a full reset. Then I found the obsession who got to use DS on me since I had been tunneling them. At that point the game was over. Then I found the other person I had tunneled and it was a 3v2 match (I was playing Nemesis).
Had I played the way that you find acceptable would have ended with 5 hooks and most likely 1 kill. No thank you. The survivors played with the goal to break my 3 gen setup so I had to play with the goal to remove one of them from the game.
This is not a toxic response. It is both a tactical and a logical one. The removal of my 3 gen setup is just as detrimental as the removal of one of their players.
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@DyingWish92 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3369136#Comment_3369136
Is there really only 8 pallets on that map?
so you can't think like that when each of these pallets is a : you must break this or I can run around it forever even with bloodlust 3 kind of pallet.
But generally yes, there are 8 god pallets.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3369460#Comment_3369460
Bloodlust exists because the maps are unfairly balanced and bloodlust is the design fix to remedy that. If you don't understand why the game is that way then you're basically saying : lets only have Nurse and Blight be the viable killers.I have no idea what you are saying - to the point that I feel like you are responding to the wrong message. Yes, bloodlust is useful for some killers more than others, @NerfedFreddy proposed increasing the rate it is gained for weaker killers, I'm agreeing and saying that's a good idea as a balance solution without overhauling the game. I then propose a couple of other ideas that are mix of simple and if I could redesign the whole game type ideas, which was the request of the OP.
But then you go on to say : let's make sure we have variety in killers.Variety in killers/maps/etc is a key point of the game. DbD wouldn't have had nearly the lifespan it did without it.
What I'm saying is that people have to be realistic - variety and balance don't go together. We can discuss moving more toward balance, but there are a lot of factors people need to be aware of when having that discussion. Some of those things I believe BHVR could fix, others are inevitable components of the game.
You replied very positively to someone that said :
"Make bloodlust exclusive trait of m1 killers, anti-loop killers don't need that, they are already strong and should rely on their powers instead of w-gaming"
Overall this statement is foolish. Bloodlust is a "leftover" mechanism because DBD has no real balance when it comes to allowing Tile A to be next to Tile B. Scot Jund's dream patch notes suggested making it so that tiles cannot be turned a certain way when next to each other or better yet certain tiles are not allowed to be next to each other.
As an example imagine a shack with the window facing out into a jungle gym so you can go from shack to the gym with the same angle vault. That is a broken tile unless the killer is Nurse, the killer has bamboozle or there is a beartrap on one of those windows. We could make this example worse by having that jungle gym connect to an L/T wall after. You could run this for 2-3 minutes before getting hit once.
Now imagine Shack with the window facing the opposite direction. The next tile over is a filler pallet and the next tile over is a L/T wall. This setup represents a far better balanced map. You have very workable tiles but they become worthless when the pallets are gone.
The first tile is only "fair" if you have prepared for unfair maps. The second tile is fair for nearly every killer in the game. If every tile placement were more like the second then we could remove bloodlust.
"What I'm saying is that people have to be realistic - variety and balance don't go together."
It's very realistic to either limit the MMR of all killers based on their skill cap OR it's very realistic to buff all the killers to be within 15% power level of nurse. Imagine for example if Trapper had a soft MMR cap of 1200. If you keep winning you can go over that value up to a hard cap of 1500. No matter how often you win at 1500 you can't break the 1600 MMR cap. That might represent a scenario where playing trapper is "fair".
The reality is that the best trapper in the world is irrelevant when compared to an "ok" nurse player. This is a reflection of poor balance/bad design.
Trapper could very easily be put into the "A" tier.
- Make Bloody coil base kit. Buff this effect to give deep wounds to a wounded player disarming a trap.
- Make the trapper start with 4 traps in hand and put the remaining 4 in the middle of the map in an "X" pattern.
- Make trapper move at 120% move speed (give this buff to all killers without a movement or teleport power).
- Rework purple sack to be +2 traps in hand and +1 trap on the map (in the center of the X)
- Replace Bloody coil iri addon with a new addon of one of the following effects : A) Traps cannot be disarmed without a tool kit or Sabotage; otherwise - you must step in them to disarm them. B) Traps are invisible until you are 1m from their hitbox radius. From 1m they slowly "fade in".
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@Deathstroke said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3369460#Comment_3369460
It's not nearly as that simple and the actual world what you're looking here is gen rushing. It's problem but it's not only reason why tunneling happens. Otherwise you would not see killers tunneling 5 gens remaining.
Still probably half of the killers don't tunnel often and are still able to win. Tunneling simply is most easiest and best strat to win and that's why it mostly happens. Even if gens take 200s those killers who tunnel would still tunnel.
That's why tunneling should be nerfed and make other strats more viable which I suggested taking first survivor out as you're 5-6th hook. Game would not have to be changed radically for that as this is already very common strat. But it just needs to be bit more viable.
Tunneling still has place in the game and can be never entirely removed and it should not but just with some changes it would be less common. So then when killer chooses to tunnel he can end up losing the game instead if he would went after different target and won.
From all the killers yes Oni needs buff good survivors pre drop every pallet and he is just m1 killer without any antiloop. So buff to get him that first hit would help him to be viable in highest mmr. I would think you understand. In low and middle mmr he gets hit immediatelly anyway so it would not be problem. And if 120% movement speed would be too much it could disable after he uses his power first time.
-"That's why tunneling should be nerfed and make other strats more viable"
When you say this it only makes sense if tunneling refers to killers putting the same person on a hook as well as survivors trying desperately to finish specific generators no matter what.
I tunnel every game because I usually have lobbies with players who have their hours in multiples of 2000-5000 hour chunks. The only reason I would not tunnel is if there is a "better" option.
Gen progress overall needs to be halted more often -this would happen naturally if all maps were 9000m². But maybe we need some perks to make it happen artificially. Imagine for example if we added a killer perk with no cooldown that made gens untouchable for 20 seconds after they have been kicked. The cooldown is built in as travel time.
Or we could do the intelligent thing and give killer a 1:1 regression rate equal to a survivor's repair rate if four players are alive. The current regression rate should probably be the rate if a single player is left alive.
-"yes Oni needs buff good survivors pre drop every pallet and he is just m1 killer without any antiloop"
Of all the killers that need to be 120% speed it's not Oni. If you are struggling with Oni then I think you need to work on your M1 fundamentals. Both Otz and Truetalent do a good job playing Oni vs people that play as you describe. Without his power Oni is a M1 killer and if you are struggling to get hits then there is the possibility it is you who is the weak link not the killer.
Now do not take offense to that as I am not saying 100% that is the problem. Oni is clearly weaker than Nurse but is regarded as an "A" tier killer by most people. There is some overlap here when you consider that Oni in some ways plays like MM. Both killers benefit by being a little bit clever and forcing the correct pallets to be removed.
If you don't mind tell me your perk setup and let's look at what you are working with.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3369595#Comment_3369595
Is it pure RNG? Have BHVR stated how the perks are selected?
It is not pure RNG. There is a minimum lockout of ~9 months before any premium content can be in the shrine. This was not the case when the only DLC available was Michael Myers in 2016.
@SMitchell8 said:
The knights perks have been in the last 2 shrines despite only just coming out.
The knight is not premium content.
@Seraphor said:
The Shrine does need to update. With an increasing perk library to pull from, the chances of any individual perk appearing are getting less and less.
I would say it's probably time to have two separate Survivor and Killer shrines, still 4 perks each, so that there's greater coverage and greater choice available.
As well as excluding perks from free characters. There's no reason a perk from Claudette or Wraith should ever appear and clog up the system.
-"The Shrine does need to update."
This is so simple to fix.
- Allow no "free" perks in the shrine. Free perks are the base kit characters such as Meg, Dwight, Clautette, Jake, Nea, Bill, Nurse, Trapper, Billy, Wraith and Huntress. This would remove 33 perks to make room for content people always have access to via bloodpoints. There is no realistic scenario where someone would spend shards for this content and "save" time spending 2k shards over 1M BP.
- Have the perks appear in the shine in random order but once they have appeared in a "cycle" they cannot appear again until everything has been in the shrine. There are enough perks to keep the shrine rotation long. But if you checked the shrine every tuesday for a year you should be able to buy every perk in the game.
Is that not reasonable to want players to be able to get the content if they wait a year in the shrine for it to appear?
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@Nos37 said:
I feel like the devs have already done this. They did both things, but in the oppsoite order.
First they buffed killers...
- Adjusted their balance for a 60% killrate instead of 50%.
- Longer repair times for gens.
- 10% faster basic killer actions across the board.
- Removed locker blinds.
THEN they added the HUD for solo q.
The problem is, looking at the HUD and seeing no one doing gens does not make gens get repaired faster, nor does it make gens magically repair themselves. 🤷♂️
-"First they buffed killers..."
When you say hey let's buff killers you don't do that by removing the #1 generator defense perk : pop goes the weasel.
You also don't do that by buffing DH when used by the very best players - which is exactly what happened.
You also don't do that by giving survivors tunnel protection in the form of basekit BT without giving killers base kit gen protection.
The 6.0 rework was a minor buff with mechanics for killer that gave with huge buffs for survivors and major nerfs for the best killer gen defense perks (especially when you consider eruption was gutted).
In short this was 1 step forward and 2 steps back. And then they gave survivors a hud with SWF levels of information with no compensation.
-"Removed locker blinds."
This came with the ability to automatically blind killers on most pickups. There is no counterplay at all anymore and the blind on normal pickups is nearly automatic and takes zero skill.
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@KingFieldShipper said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3369085#Comment_3369085
Are you really trying to imply the old meta only worked with playing in a swf? Unbreakable at the most maybe, but to say bt/ds/dh only worked in swf is absolutely wrong.
But you're entire post is proving my original statement. Choosing your team is the strength of swf. The ability to coordinate perks. Comms or not that is the strength. The ability to see everything survivors see in the hud right now doesn't change that fact and almost means nothing with the scenario you mentioned with Jake or Nancy if they were solo with the hud update. Because you still can't communicate any of that stuff.
-"The ability to see everything survivors see in the hud right now doesn't change that fact and almost means nothing with the scenario you mentioned with Jake or Nancy if they were solo with the hud update"
The ability to see that a generator is at 90% progress is nearly game breaking. If the player working the generator with 90% progress gets of the generator then you immediately run around the map to find the generator at 90% instead of starting a new generator.
Playing in a SWF has always broken the game. Obviously the hud upgrade is not the same but it gives you stupid amounts of information.
Think back before the time of the hud update. If someone gets hooked in solo queue you might have 3 people go to the hook. The hud change removes that as an option. Also you know to go for the rescue if someone not on a generator suddenly has chase indicators.
BT/DS/DH/Unbreakable with exactly those four perks was significantly weaker in solo queue than when you ran those perks in a SWF. I check every player to come in my lobby. If I don't like the look of a lobby then I don't play it. I can verify that people who played solo against me with those perks did worse individually than teams who had the same perks.
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@Deathstroke said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3369158#Comment_3369158
I don't want tunneling removed just nerfed and killers buffed enough to win spreading bit of hooks. Like for example targeting 2 survivors or spreading hooks but targeting one player over others. Good balance would be that killer kills first survivor 5-6th hook. That should be most viable strat. Now you could still tunnel but it would be just less effient.
8 hooking before finishing anyone off for example should never be the most viable and should be just to show skill expression or killer being friendly. I think before ds nerf 5-6 hooks before first kill was most viable strat as it bought so much time for survivors. So I think ds stun nerf should be reverted.
Also pop goes to weasel promoted leaving hook to chase others. I think it should buffed back to take 20% from total progress. Gens could be increased to 100s from starters and mini grim embrace or deadlock should be added as basekit. Each killer should be looked at and buffed if needed. Oni for example just needs a way to get that first hit faster so he could be buffed to 120% movement speed.
-"I don't want tunneling removed just nerfed and killers buffed enough to win spreading bit of hooks"
Survivors tunnel generators so killers tunnel survivors. You either leave things the way they are or you radically change the system. There is not really much room in between.
-"Oni for example just needs a way to get that first hit faster so he could be buffed to 120% movement speed"
Of all the killers that need a Buff - it most definitely is not Oni.
I cannot believe they said "flicks were OP when Billy had them but they're fine when Oni does them".
@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3367955#Comment_3367955
I'd vote you up a hundred times if I could. That's incredibly simple and elegant. You could even take it one step more where the weaker killers gain bloodlust faster.
To the OP @Skill_issue
So there are a couple of "problems" about game design
1: Variety - players want a variety of killers. Different designs, playstyles, etc. Balance and variety do not go together.
2: Map randomness - the more comp style players seem to hate it, but this is a core element of the game design. To create a variety of maps that feel different means that killers will have maps they are strong on, and maps they are weak on.
3: Add on nature - I think the whole concept of addons should be tossed and replaced, but its probably not going to be. Some killers play with the best addons, others try and play as if they can't use addons or only use certain ones. For some killers, addons change them substantially. Take Trapper - he's very weak without addons, but with top level addons, well, he's still not great, but he's definitely quite a bit stronger. When balancing killers do you do it assuming they are using addons or not? Do you try and strengthen a killer by boosting addons and making them stronger, but realize that some killers won't even touch them.
4: Player skill levels - The various MMR brackets play the game differently. Base to mid level nurses aren't a huge fear, top tier nurses can crush pretty much anything.
-
I think you're post is asking hypotheticals, so I'll give my 'if I could redesign DbD".
Toss out addons, instead allow a variety of builds that killers can select which have pros and cons.
-Now that you don't have the question of if players are using addons or not you've taken a step toward balancing.
Toss out map offerings. If a certain killer is too strong or too weak on a certain map just have it never come up for that killer.
If a choice has to be made, balance toward the middle of MMR. Top tier comp style can create their own rules if they wish for weakening survivors if they are too strong.
-I think BHVR generally has the right idea with kill rates as a balance mechanism (probably the only other main factor is if survivors or killers just DC or give up against certain playstyles). While individual feedback can point to ideas, there are thousands of games happening at any one time (I'm really curious if they've ever released how many games of DbD get played). It's the full scope that has to be looked at.
For killers that have weaker kill rates, make general small changes.
-@NerfedFreddy bloodlust idea
-shrink terror radius
-at an extreme end, give or take away a perk slot
Bloodlust exists because the maps are unfairly balanced and bloodlust is the design fix to remedy that. If you don't understand why the game is that way then you're basically saying : lets only have Nurse and Blight be the viable killers.
But then you go on to say : let's make sure we have variety in killers.
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@Deathstroke said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3369088#Comment_3369088
And that's why they will not buff killers because tunneling artificially keeps kill rates as high as before. Probably survivors will get more buffs before killers can get buffs as long as killers continue to tunnel more and more. Now if every killer would stop tunneling kill rates would go down to under 50% devs would have no other choise than to buff killers but that's not going to happen. Devs said they want 60% kill rate so they would have to buff killers.
I don't tunnel every game and lose sometimes because of it but I prioritice having fun over winning every game. Also I don't want to get to the highest mmr bracket I think I was there moment and I had to lose games to get my mmr down. There even tunneling is not enough to win games and you have to sweat like your life is at stake so that's not fun.
If you want to remove tunneling from the game you need to do two things.
- Slow down the survivor objective massively before introducing a buff to killer to make them not want to tunnel or make chases guaranteed to be shorter (these have the same effect).
- Introduce a buff to killer stronger than tunneling so they dont want to tunnel.
How could you make chases shorter? Nerf Dead hard into the ground and make all maps 9000m². Make the majority of all pallets in a map "mindgameable". In other words they need to have a short side and a long side. Spread out all tiles so that very few tiles are linked together and able to be "used" without throwing a pallet.
What would the buff be? Every time you hook a *new* survivor give the enemy team a stacking 9% debuff that slows down generators, hooks, totems, doors, chests and healing (aka everything) that lasts for the entire game. So then the killer would try to get a stacking -36% slowdown on the enemy team. If one player quits or is killed then no new hooks will give the stacking debuff. Games would quickly get to 1 generator remaining and that last generator would take : ~122 seconds.
I suspect this would never happen because survivors would hate it:
- Games would be even more centered around three gen play.
- All chases would be shorter overall because maps are smaller AND because pallets/vaults overall are weaker. The difference between great looping and "ok" looping would be something like 5-10 seconds instead a 30-40 second difference. This would make veterans very unhappy but would make all the "middle MMR killers" not want to ragequit.
- Killers that want to win would tunnel any player after getting 3/4 stacks. You would see Dying Light since you could very quickly stack a ridiculous amount of negatives on the survivor team.
- There would be even more gen regression perks and they would be more valuable because 15% reduction to a generator's progress has more value when that generator takes more time to complete. ( 15% of 122 seonds is greater than 15% of 90 seconds)
- The strong killers would be even better than they are now - which would kind of defeat the purpose.
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@TigerSnake said:
You have every right to complain about long matches against our favorite boring ass killer, but you guys saying that guarding 3 gens in close proximity to one another needs to be removed need to knock it off as what you’re asking for is literally impossible. There’s no viable way to prevent gens from spawning close together or implementing some other system to kill the strat without severely unbalancing the game entirely. And don’t say it’s a perk problem either. 3 gens have been viable without CoB/OC for all these years, and will continue to flourish with other perks, including weaken versions of the two I mentioned. What you guys should be asking for is reworks to SM as this is literally the problem here, especially when she literally cannot do anything else but guard a 3 gen. Even Knight’s power has more strength to it where 3 genning is not the only option for him.
Three gen setups have been part of the game since 2016. If you ever played DBD in that era you might remember a time before killers could kick generators.
It is only a relatively recent change in DBD ideas that "killers should not be allowed to have three gens". The killer response to this ludicrous challenge is : survivors should not have 4 alive players - allow me to tunnel you out of the game.
Part of what makes small maps like Abattoir fair is that you can turn multiple locations into a possible three gen. Maps that require the killer to hold one specific 3 gen setup or they lose are incredibly boring. An example of this type of play is Dead Dawg Saloon, Azarov's Remains and Crow map before its rework (you held the 3 gen behind main or gg).
A full breakdown of the Abattoir map can be found here in this thread : https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3367074#Comment_3367074
What makes a map fair?
- It's 9000m² or smaller AND the tiles are not overly linked together (this disqualifies Coal Tower as a fair map).
- There are a low number of pallets. In the case of Abattoir there are usually 8 pallets (this disqualifies The Game).
- There are multiple locations where the killer can potentially hold a 3 gen setup.
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3369100#Comment_3369100
Someone is trying to switch the topic..
You asked what was the source. I said the developers. You asked when - I don't have that answer for you.
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The point of the shrine is to give access to all the perks without owning the DLC content. Usually this takes ~1 year while it is forbidden to be in the shrine then it appears normally.
@TigerSnake said:
I hate how the shrine seems to cycle through exclusively the same exact perks. What’s up with that?
If the same perks keep appearing in the shrine and you want a perk that isn't there you have to buy the DLC.
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3369094#Comment_3369094
"Dont ask me for evidence, go waste your life looking for evidence yourself"
ok dude.
How many pallets are there on "the game" map? The answer is 25; this is a known answer by the DBD community.
How much of an advantage did SWF groups have over solo players? This is a known answer given to us by the developers and was stated to be up to a 15% advantage.
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@Raptorrotas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3369056#Comment_3369056
Why would you nerf a killer if the goal is to match all killers to the newly buffed survivor minimum and maximum potential?
Just buff the weaker killers.
It's a laughable notion to recursively buff survivor to match survivor+comms+teamplay ( survivor is part of survivor+comms+teamplay) and then decide to nerf the top killers. Survivors gets their minimum and maximum potential buffed and killer gets the minimum raised but the maximum lowered?
Did you miss the part where :
- Deadlock becomes base kit
- Killers can break bones by kicking dull totems?
- All maps are reduced in size to be smaller than 9000m². Note : maps will be designed so that tiles can't be super linked together like coal tower. If you are familiar with Scott Jund's "dream patch" notes - DBD would follow the rule about tile spacing.
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3369088#Comment_3369088
Show me the quote so I can see the context.
Go find it yourself if you want to "prove me wrong". I know sometime in the last year on this forum I had a discussion with someone about this very topic. You can go find that discussion and other people in that thread will confirm what I said is the truth.
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3369068#Comment_3369068
The devs told us that SWF groups escape up to 15% more often than solo queue players. I will remind you that Freddy got obliterated for having a 4% higher kill rate.
That sounds like bs. You better be able to demonstrate that or be outed a liar.
It's a quote taken directly from one of their streams.
When Freddy had been marked for nerfing he had a 4% higher kill rate. This is a fact that was also given to us by a lovely little bar graph. He had something like a 63 or 64% kill rate when all the other killers were mostly around 57-59% lethality.
If we go back in time the rhetoric about SWF from 2016-2020 was roughly something like : "SWF gives no advantage because people playing in a group are more altruistic; this evens out any possible advantage."
In late 2021 or 2022 we had the "oops our bad" moment where they looked at data and determined that SWF had upto a 15% increase in escape rate. So they did the smart thing and nerfed SWF. Oh wait no they didn't do that.... they buffed solo queue players with no compensation for the killer.
This most likely just reinforced the need for killers to tunnel more; although to be honest I can't be tunneling more if I was already hard tunneling the first player hooked out of the game every time before the hud changes.
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@KingFieldShipper said:
It's not, and killers really aren't because this is not the thing that makes swf strong.
This is propaganda in action. The proof was in the perks people used inside SWFs vs when they played alone.
The old meta build for a SWF was : DH, DS, BT, Unbreakable. Every player ran those perks and it was insane. Run those same perks outside of a SWF and it crumbles because you have zero information. What's the difference? The SWF can say the killer is doing this/that for the entire game. You always know what to do and where to go.
Furthermore I encourage you at some point to stream snipe a team of 4 players in a SWF that use active call outs (doesn't need to be Hens level). Imagine youl slug Jake and start a chase with Nancy; Jake will call out over voice coms , "not to worry friends I will use unbreakable if he keeps chasing you." The chase immediately ends and you hook Jake. Is that whole interaction fair? Actually yes that makes the SWF interaction feel "fair". When survivors called out that the shack generator was at 80% you could run over there and interrupt it.
Imagine for example if the killer could see who was linked with whom and what there perks were as a side effect of being in a SWF group. That would make SWF have a "cost". The problem with SWF has always been that it makes you instantly more efficient without any cost.
@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3334419#Comment_3334419
Do you disagree with it?
If both sides play perfectly the killer loses almost every time. You rely on survivor mistakes to win.
-"If both sides play perfectly the killer loses almost every time."
This is the reality. It is also raises the question : why should I play any killer besides Nurse/Blight?
DBD would be a far more interesting game for both sides if every killer that was Not Nurse/Blight had their MMR softcapped at ~1550 or lower. This would mean that if you are sitting beyond 1600 MMR as a survivor then nearly every game is against a nurse/blight.
Every other killer in the game would have a cap below that but could have a "float value" to surpass the soft cap if you keep winning. I personally feel Doctor is the weakest killer in the game so his MMR cap for example might sit around 1200 MMR. Trapper might rest around 1300 and you can fill in the rest.
Adding soft caps like this will never happen.
- Survivors would hate it because good players would have 95% of their games against "actually viable" killers /gasp. People who were bad at DBD would see a lot of the killer cast but the person you see playing Doctor would be good so you would be mad playing against a very good Doctor.
- It would make all the killers viable. This just won't do from a sales point of view. Have you noticed by the way that in order to play killer you need to buy the Killer and then you need about 5-6 DLC's to make a few possible viable gen regression builds? Furthermore have you noticed that Pinhead was released in September of 2021 and Deadlock has appeared in the shrine ZERO times since then?
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@Emeal said:
Killers are irrelevant to SWF/SoloQ HUD changes, if they are falling behind improve them, but they don't deserve a buff automatically because Survivor stuff gets changed. This is not how anything works.
You're crazy if you think getting to see the % completion of a gnerator/heal/down ally's recovery is "fair" to the killer with no compensation.
The devs told us that SWF groups escape up to 15% more often than solo queue players. I will remind you that Freddy got obliterated for having a 4% higher kill rate.
The hud upgrade makes playing survivor much easier with zero compensation for killer other hand harder matches and fewer points.
@AMOGUS said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3368676#Comment_3368676
You said "Myers is outdated" and how he was made for 2017 DBD. People who say that almost always have Tombstone in mind. Either that, or they mean his power. Sometimes both.
And no, it really doesn't have the same effect, Thana is a weak perk only good on certain killers while Myers add-ons can allow for a new way of eliminating Survivors, a new threat that isn't a complete joke without very specific add-ons and perks like Sadako's condemned, and you generally get insta killed at 5 gens if your team isn't doing gens. Stop blaming the killer for your team's incompetence. This is done in many topic on the forums, and I'm sick of it.
Or alternatively, we can just buff his basekit instead of touching some of the most unique add-ons in the game, with several entire builds that can be done with this Killer. His power running out doesn't matter since at that point, the game is typically done. Myers can just run Endu+Fury if that's an issue.
Let's consider for a moment that Nurse exists. Why does Michael have a "buildup" phase when nurse does not. That's because everyone knows Nurse is inferior to MM right? Oh wait.
MM is very simple to rework.
- Remove the -5% for phase one or give him +5% when he reaches phase two for the rest of the game.
- Since GF now gets +30 second duration for his power - reduce the cost of MM's tier 2 increase so that he gets it 50% faster. Return multi stalking to the game (as he had on release). Remove the distance penalty for long range stalking; in fact Michael should probably get a 1.5x stalk increase multiplier for stalking beyond 32m (as he does in the majority of the movies) . To differentiate between GF and MM remove the ability for GF to stalk beyond 24m.
- Change MM's power to be like Oni where you hold to charge and must press again when full to activate.
- Whenever a player leaves the game either by death or D/C - redistribute the removed player's "stalk juice" to all remaining players. Alternatively you could change MM so that survivors never run out of juice.
- While in T3 MM can lunge attack a pallet to break it. This gives him a slightly longer stun recovery than normal but is still much faster than breaking the pallet with brutal strength.
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@Skill_issue said:
the new hud helps survivors to relay information and help to traverse the skill gap but what about the gap between lower tier killers and higher tier killers? what is going to be done so that every killer is indeed viable?
would higher tier killers like nurse be actually nerfed? say make her matchstick iridescent addon the base for nurse? qol such as smaller map sizes so m1 killers can actually reach far gens at the beginning of the match? more addon passes?
what are your thoughts?
-"what are your thoughts?"
There are two fair killers in DBD: Nurse/Blight. What makes them fair?
These two killers have a complete kit.
- They traverse the map quickly at all times (not some of the time)
- They have strong anti loop
- They are lethal in chase.
- Because they have all of the above they generate 4v1 pressure without some silly mechanic like a pig mask or a box.
Let's look at a killer like Trapper. How do you make Trapper no less than 15% weaker than Nurse?
- He needs a way to move faster; in addition all maps would need to be 9000m² or he cant play maps larger than that.
- His traps would need to be far more punishing.
- You would need to Nerf the hell out of Nurse/Blight
- Every killer that isn't Nurse/Blight gets massive buffs
What would each of those look like?
- You could make trapper move at 120% speed. If we did this to all non teleporting/non movement speed killers it would radically change the game. Suddenly you would need to pre-drop against every killer the first time around a loop because the spacing is wrong. Even at 120% speed there is no way in hell you could try to play a giant map vs efficient players.
- Trapper would need to start with 4 traps in hand and the rest would be in the middle of the map in an "X" pattern (not on the map edges #########). Base kit he now has Bloody coil (making his traps injure on disarm) and that effect would be buffed so that disarming a trap while injured gives you a deep wound. New iri coil addons could be something like (pick one) : a) traps cannot be disarmed except by stepping in them; b) the new addon makes traps invisible to survivors except within 1m before you hit the trap effect (they start to "fade" in and become fully visible via a slider transparency effect). Bear traps would need their "2016 Suck in" ability back. In other words the bear trap would have the old bigger hitbox. Purple sack would be reworked to give the killer +2 traps in hand and +1 more trap on the map somewhere near mid (maybe middle of the X).
- The only "buildup" killers in the game should be Nurse/Blight. Nurse starts with 1 blink. Blight starts with 2 charges. Getting a hit with your power or a regular attack gives you +1 blink/ +2 charges. Furthermore Blight loses hug tech (already planned and in the works) and can no longer break pallets with his power. Blight becomes 110% movement speed. Most of Blight's addons get gutted. Alchemist Ring is completely reworked. Adrenaline vial gives -2 charges instead of +2 charges. Compound 21 is completely reworked - maybe to something like you see the aura of any survivor within 6m of your bounce and all survivors see your aura if inside your terror radius). All killers will wipe their weapon after a successful attack (does not include Trickster, Trapper with beartraps, Nemesis zombies and Plague spit). A new animation is added for Huntress when she lands a M2 attack where she juggles a hatchet momentarily. Upon hitting with her power Nurse will wipe her weapon and then go into fatigue.
- Killers that are not Nurse/Blight should get 8 perk slots instead of 4 perk slots. If that is considered too extreme then Deadlock becomes base kit for everyone and a "rollback" effect is added so that completing two generators at the same time rolls one back to 99% with the block effect (perk is reworked to extend the effect by +30 seconds ). Shattered Hope would be reworked if the inferior killers were only getting 2 perk slots. Without the perk the killer can kick totems to break them at any time ; this also extends to boons but the killer has the option to break the bones in a second action after or not. Hexes get reworked so that they can be re-lit unless all bones are destroyed (note that Devour Hope would have its tokens reset when rekindled). Taking the Shattered Hope perk would destroy a survivor's boon perks upon kicking that boon; remove the arua reading nonsense and make that survivor play the rest of the game broken. Brutal Strength is reworked to add: once per 60 seconds your lunge attack will break a dropped pallet. A new perk is added - let's call it entity's insurance : Kicking a generator prevents the generator from being touched for 20 seconds and prevents the "workable" state. Furthermore gens continue to regress while blocked by the killer (would not work for repressed alliance). New Perk is added -Gen hard: once per game you can press "E" on a generator of your choice before it is completed. If that generator is completed it reverts to the "off" state and becomes inert for the rest of the game (cannot be completed). New game rule : Hitting a survivor with an attack (something to make you lose PWYF stacks)
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I play both sides well.
I can tell you SM sucks to play against.
IF there were an option to D/C without penalty then I would do that.
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@WaveyTrey said:
A Drone can scan multiple floors because it’s throwing off a signal. If a signal couldn’t do that then that wouldn’t make any sense. A cooldown wouldn’t stop anything. It would just make her camp that one area where there isn’t a drone until she can drop a new one.
Against SM you have to go full gen rush. Doubling on gens all the time. Which sucks for Solo Q unless you have aura reading to find people. If 4 players are alive with a 3 gen lock SM should still lose. She can’t keep all 4 players off of 3 gens simultaneously. Even with drones that isn’t happening. Not every killer should be an adrenaline junkie where the survivors are in control because they’re kiting the killer. Sometimes the killer is in control, and you have to go to them.
-"A Drone can scan multiple floors because it’s throwing off a signal. If a signal couldn’t do that then that wouldn’t make any sense."
What signal are we using to scan through a solid floor? In the example above we also have the ability to scan through two floors.
Let's ignore reality (since DBD is a magical realm) and consider fair play.
Is it fun to use Drones so that nobody can realistically touch a generator? -Maybe
Is it fun to play as survivor and not be able to touch gens b/c there are drones? No
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One of two things needs to happen with the drones.
- Drones have a fixed Z plane where you place them.
- You can disarm a drone even if you have an armband without the drone becoming untouchable.
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@Skill_issue said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3367210#Comment_3367210
those are my favorite add ons with legion if i am not using filthyblade/legion button combo
Those addons are almost kinda busted together. You win if they throw the pallet. You win if they dont throw the pallet.
Legion should have been given Iri button base kit considering what Blight gets base kit.
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@crogers271 said:
When I play survivor on this map I blast the generators that make a 3 gen possible. Most people don't think about DBD in this way. They think : blasting any old generator is fine.Do me a favor and think for a moment. Have you thought about Abattoir as much as I have? Can you recall all of the possible 3 gen locations by memory? Did you know where all the pallets spawns were before I mentioned them? My guess is : probably not.At a guess I suspect that 95% of the people I play against on Abattoir don't have the same knowledge of the map that I do.Here's the problem: the thing that you are using as evidence, the intense deep dive into the map and how to play it, makes you an outlier. You're right, I haven't thought about the map as much as you (you just typed 1129 words to a simple 17 word question), I have very little opinion on map balance, but the vast majority of the player base doesn't think about the maps that way either.
The key words you typed were:
Most people don't think about DbD this way. It's those most people that the game is, and has to be, balanced around.-"You're right, I haven't thought about the map as much as you .... I have very little opinion on map balance"
Playing this map incorrectly is in some ways like bringing a sniper rifle to a battle royale map with sight lines better suited for shotguns.
If you could turn my DBD knowledge into perfect AI replications : 4 copies of me as survivor would beat killer me on Abattoir - because I don't play Nurse or Blight. I don't feel those two killers that work should be the measuring stick of balance but in many ways they are.
When you consider every other farm map - I could get stomped by 4 copies of a friend of mine who is much worse at the game than I am.