DBDVulture
DBDVulture
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3365111#Comment_3365111
That’s not what happened at all though. Dead hard has been the most complained about survivor perk for a while. But when BHVR announced that eruption was getting a massive nerf, but didn’t mention anything about dead hard, that caused people to become so outraged that they started flooding the forums with dead hard posts.
-"Dead hard has been the most complained about survivor perk for a while."
Dead hard has been the most hated survivor perk for a long time. Here's the thing - the devs should be willing to nerf it into the ground because it is a free perk that anyone with 3m BP has access to if they level up David.
IF I were designing a 4v1 video game and I cared more about making money than actual balance I would introduce a new pay to win perk and make sure it never hit the srine until like two years had passed .
All you would need to do is make some extreme BS perk like as follows. Let's call the perk: Beach Run. While another survivor is in a chase and you are not in a chase you can press "E" to give the survivor being chased a sprint burst. This gives you- not the player in the chase exhaustion.
This would be ridiculously broken to the point where literally everyone would buy the perk. And then SWF teams would have one player take chase and the team would take turns giving the person being chased multiple sprint bursts. For best effectiveness this player would also have Dead Hard.
All jokes aside- DH gives the survivor team more time to work on their objectives than any other perk. It's incredibly unfun to play against as killer and requires you to play the game differently because it exists.
Imagine for example that gates automatically regressed to zero progess at a 1:1 rate. Killers would actually use Bloodwarden. It would force survivors to open doors or face the consequence of automatic door regression.
You would have to play the end game in a completely different way. No longer would you feel "safe" just because the gates are powered.
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@Skill_issue said:
welcome opinions on all perks and add ons and mostly curious about plague and legion
Play Nurse and Blight with meta perks. Don't touch any of the other killers - unless.
You could for example treat yourself to a riveting game of clown+pinky finger with a map offering. Or perhaps you will play Ghostface on Lery's where your advantage becomes stupidly broken.
If you are going to play Legion you need to only play with Iri button. I highly suggest running Bamboozle as well as Julie's Mix tape.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3312255#Comment_3312255
Right, but the odds of you or anyone on this forum playing at that level are incredibly slim. I've said it before: I played killer and survivor in comp for years. I've yet to encounter anything in a normal match that even approached the game speed or coordination of competitive play. You are not encountering this in a regular queue.
Are you sure you are a comp level player?
The first rule of fight club- I mean DBD tournament play is usually : no character/item/perk repeats. That doesn't exist in "regular" play so actually the potential for you to play a challenging game is actually extremely high.
One of my friends plays a team where everyone is p100 and uses deliverance, DH and the strongest possible toolbox. What tournament would allow that?
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@Peanits said:
Everyone will reach a point where you plateau while playing the way you would typically play. This point will vary person to person: Some people are absolute legends and will climb really high without much effort, others will cap out fairly low (and that's okay!). This is exactly how MMR systems work. The game is trying to find a spot where your playstyle, whatever it may be, will work about half the time.
That said, if you try to play in a way that'll make you win more often, your rating will increase and you will get tougher matches, eventually plateauing again where your new strategy only works about half the time. The harder you try, the tougher your opponents will be. If you feel like you need to tunnel after tunneling to win, it's more than likely due to the fact that you've climbed above your comfort zone.
To be very clear, if you're hyper focused on winning more often than not, you will have to try (and try hard at that). The game will not try to give you easy wins. Winning consistently means the other side is losing consistently, and that means the matchmaking system isn't working.
Trying to boil the game down to an equation doesn't really work. In your example, you haven't factored in the time survivors spent saving their teammates. This is by far the most important factor in the game: Pressure. If you have one survivor on a hook, another in a chase, and a third going for a save, that leaves only one survivor left free to work on generators. This is also something you sacrifice by tunneling one survivor; the other three have nothing to do but generators since you aren't giving them a reason not to, so your generators will fly by. There's way too many factors to stick a number on it without grossly oversimplifying it.
All that aside, I really wouldn't assume you're at high MMR (not just you, OP, but anyone). The actual distribution of people across all MMRs is like a bell curve. There's a lot of people in the middle and very few at either extreme (high or low). The vast majority of people will fall somewhere around the middle. While I don't doubt that some folks here truly are playing in the high MMR range, the amount of people there are so low that it's a really bold claim to make when you can't even see your rating.
-"Everyone will reach a point where you plateau while playing the way you would typically play..... This is exactly how MMR systems work. "
If we look at the Elo system for chess you do not have people in tournaments with 1600 Elo playing people with 2000 Elo. DBD says : whatever lol. I couldn't find a balanced match in time so here play this instead.
-"While I don't doubt that some folks here truly are playing in the high MMR range, the amount of people there are so low that it's a really bold claim to make when you can't even see your rating."
What do you consider high MMR? I would define any rating over 1600 as "high" because that is the cut off point where your rating ceases to matter. We know this is the line in the sand thanks to Choy.
If I am consistently playing people who win or place in comp DBD tournaments and their hour count is in multiples of 5000 then I can assume one of two things :
- I am in the correct MMR bracket.
- I am not in the correct bracket and the system is broken.
I cannot determine if the system is broken because you hide MMR from me.
Furthermore most people absolutely hate the MMR system. Let's look at some numbers.
MMR was introduced ~ September of 2021 right?
Look at what you did to the game.
MMR reduced the average player count on steam by roughly 20,000 players.
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@crogers271 said:
I have won 20/21 games on Rancid Abattoir with one tie.Okay, then how is that map fair? Because that doesn't sound 'fair', that sounds massively killer sided.
As a statistic win rate is a poor indicator of balance without an understanding of why.
Do me a favor and please read the discussion we have been having about Groaning Storehouse. I'll post the picture he linked if you can't be bothered.
If you are the average joe noob you probably don't know where the gens spawns are without a map like this. I can tell you for example that Generator #2 is almost never inside the jungle gym. There is always a generator at #4, #6 or #7 and #10 or#11 or #12; consequently these are the most equal distant generators you can hold.
I said before It's basically an automatic win if I get to hold # 6, #5 and #8 (or #9). If you don't know that I am trying to hold that three gen and blast other areas of the map you are in for a world of hurt when I hook a survivor in the #6 tile. You will not get in without taking a hit and you most likely will trade. Then I will stand at the X tile on #8 and wait for the next trade. Nobody is allowed to touch any of the gens in that area.
Basically the survivors messed up if they allow me to do this. I bring perks like Bamboozle and Save the Best for last to minimize chase times and make rescues even more punishing.
Anybody who doesn't see my strategy coming is in for an equal amount of despair when we play abattoir. I don't have a map handy for Abattoir but you can three gen around main, you can 3 gen on the side away from shack and you can 3 gen on the opposite side on the corner away from shack. The take away point here is that it's not dead dawg saloon where there is one viable 3 gen and you lose when that vanishes.
All of those locations are very strong just like groaning storehouse. I can stand in a position to protect a 3 gen while I watch you die on hook. But I don't need to do that on this map because it is small. Overall there are a few strong pallets; once they are gone chases get very short. I tunnel and protect my 3 gen and the possibility to lose vanishes quickly.
When I play survivor on this map I blast the generators that make a 3 gen possible. Most people don't think about DBD in this way. They think : blasting any old generator is fine.
Going back to the Storehouse example if you have gens at #4 / #11 /#6 you have what my friend calls a "Y" gen. Experienced players that understand the game know which generators to finish to make the killer always have a "Y" gen.
What do Nurse/Blight and Sadako have in common? Every generator combination is a 3 gen. Nurse and Blight however are extremely lethal in chase in addition to having crazy map traversal. Almost every other killer in the game needs the map size to be small for it to be fair.
Why?
Small maps organically allow you to interrupt one person while chasing another. This does not happen on large maps because there is so much free space. More space equals less likely chance for any of the 5 moving objects on a map to have a collision if they were all set to move randomly.
Small maps have less room to shift W. This is incredibly important for M1 killers. Abattoir always has two L/T walls by shack. If you bring Bamboozle that obstacle becomes a death trap unless you have Lithe armed and ready. Bamboozle also trivializes Shack and the main building. This reinforces the emphasis sooner on pallet use which ultimately makes all the chases much shorter faster.
To make a long story short : my perk build+ killer choice is very difficult to beat on a map like Abattoir because almost nobody takes Nemesis seriously. If you used my build and played the map I play it - I could probably beat you with a proper SWF team who played around my level. Most people I play against would probably do much better if we played two games in a row with everything the same on the same map. But that's not how the RNG match making works.
Along the same lines imagine you played two games in a row vs a Demo using whistle+ Devour Hope. In the second game you know exactly what to do. Nobody touches any generators until he comits to a chase. You only start really playing the game when DH is destroyed.
My win strategy works because nobody sees it coming. As a matter of fact - almost every streamer I stream snipe always says "Bamboozle?! on Nemesis? " When you pick perks you can either take something to fix a problem or you can take something to make what you have even better. Most people that know how to loop very well become almost powerless in a chase against Bamboozle as it basically removes something like 3000-5000 hours of gameplay knowledge in terms of how well you can continue to loop me.
Bam essentially forces pallets to drop much faster or you give me a free hit. If you give me a hit then I get a stack (why would I chase the obsession first - lol) and if you dont then I get the pallet. How many pallets are there on Abattoir?
Main building has 1 by the haybale.
Shack has 1 pallet.
Backside has 2 jungle gyms/pallet gyms with pallets.
Frontside corner away from shack has 1 jungle gym.
Shack corner hay has 1 pallet.
There is usually 1 filler pallet between shack and backside that could be used to lead to main
There is 1 filler pallet on the backside of main near some hay that leads to the corner pallet gym.
Is there a pallet I am missing? That's 8 pallets. Most of the time I only chase on one side of the map which means at most I use up 4 pallets (chases against the last person with everyone else down don't really count).
Do me a favor and think for a moment. Have you thought about Abattoir as much as I have? Can you recall all of the possible 3 gen locations by memory? Did you know where all the pallets spawns were before I mentioned them? My guess is : probably not.
At a guess I suspect that 95% of the people I play against on Abattoir don't have the same knowledge of the map that I do. This contributes heavily for their inability to have a winning tactic against me.
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@Phasmamain said:
So with merchant’s release there’s been a lot of discourse over her ability to camp a 3 gen. This similarly happened with knight (I’m sure you’ve all seen the hens video)
But I feel like a lot of people are placing the blame on the wrong thing. The number 1 cause of this issue is not these killers but the current gen kick meta. Fact is without overcharge, CoB Jolt and PR this strategy wouldn’t really work. CoB and overcharge are solely designed for defending a 3 gen which is not something a perk should be designed around
Once the meta shake up was released we began to see complaints of killers camping 3 gens from the start of the match giving survivors no room to counteract it. These perks incentivise kicking the same gens repeatedly while not interacting with the survivors which was not true of the other metas.
These killers definitely aren’t engaging to play against but this is more an issue with current regression meta than the Killer’s designs. By creating a more engaging regression meta I guarantee this strategy would become rarer than a twins main
I think you don't understand DBD very well.
@False_Hydra said:
no, it's really a problem of Skull Merchant very much as well, because camping a 3 gen is her only option.
It doesn't help that this strategy is already very obnoxious and powerful (although I personally don't see an issue with general 3 genning, apart from a few characters doing that like Knight or skull merchant), it's that skull merchant can do only 3 genning if she wants to be at least seemingly effective.
It's like Pyramid Head's power was nothing but torment + cages and the latter were in their first iteration. Literally the killer only good for tunnelling.
Or Bubba before rework. Only good at facecamping.
Although even these killers would at least be powerful, because efficiency of their power isn't fully under survivors' control.
So yeah, Skull Merchant is a huge problem on her own that just so happens to multiply the severity of the other issue.
"no, it's really a problem of Skull Merchant very much as well, because camping a 3 gen is her only option."
This is the reality.
Skull Merchant would be "fine" with 1 small tweak. Change the arm band so that it doesn't make another drone automatically detect you.
In the same way that one person can be the designated "bear trap disarm specialist" this would let someone who wants to be chased become the "drone remover".
SM is punishing because they can put down multiple drones to make any setup of 3 gens into a powerful 3 gen. Combine this with a hex or two + pentimento and it is beyond punishing.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3366839#Comment_3366839
The Library has a single pallet that can be easily forced out. The window isn't strong either.
Oh, I see. You agree that those maps a fairly Killer-sided as there's not much Survivors can do against a war of attrition when gens are split unfairly by RNG. Gotcha.
These are the gen spawn locations that I remember on Groaning Storehouse. Many of these cannot spawn all at once. A gen is guaranteed in the following sections: 7 or 6 and 3 or 4. There will usually be one in 11 as well.
That's THREE corners opposite of each other. Trust me, I know my gen spawns. Are you sure you're thinking of the right map?
Where is this map from? I'd like to see the source.
If I get a spawn of : 6/5/8 or 4/2/5 it's literally impossible for me to lose. The last time I played this map I actually used 8/9/10 as Michael Myers. Unless you play Bamboozle all the time you can't really neutralize main but Infinite T3 MM definitely does that.
@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3366843#Comment_3366843
No he is right, Growning storehouse is balanced by its 3 gens. The 3 gen is not impossible break because one of generator spawns near shack which is strong loop. Shack in this map can often be instant-win button for killer in terms of camping if the basement spawns there. very strong for killer such as Hag basement.
The 3 gen combination is 8, 7, 6 or 5 and 5,2,3,4. Growning storehouse is survivor sided map however it has poor gen distribution for survivor meaning that killer can balance the map by 3 gen similar to maps like Azeroth resting place. The upper 3 gen(5,2,3,4) is pretty scary though because it is easy to create giant dead-zone and easy hook camps if the killer hooks the survivor on hook 4.
If your facing Top-level SWF team, the generator to push are gen 6 and gen 4 at the start of the match. You always prioritize these gens regardless your spawn position as survivor. If the killer has good macro play, they will immediately attempt to interrupt you from doing these gens right at the start of the match. A really strong play for survivor to stealth/hide at the start of the match when doing these gens to waste the killer time at the of the match. Gen 4, 6 and gen 8 I refer to these as "High tension gens". You go to these gens IF you want to get chased as survivor at the start of the match. If the killer is heavily invested in defending that area, It might be impossible complete gen but you can keep killer worried in staying that area which allow your team to pressure other generators around the map. If you find a survivor on these high tension gens, expect survivor to have an anti-tunnel build such as Decisive strike+DH+Off the record etc. The gen 9, 1, 2, 11, 2 are safe generator. you go to these generator if your on death hook.
"No he is right, Growning storehouse is balanced by its 3 gens."
Thank you- appreciate the validation.
The other thing that makes Storehouse fair is that there is huge RNG on the number of pallets. Otz did a video of "worst RNG possible" and someone found a variation on GS with maybe 6 pallets or less.
@Shroompy said:
Autohaven, MacMillan, Red Forest and The Borgo actually got a sort of shadow nerf on PTB and as far as Im aware it did reach live. Its a change that prevents the repeat tiles, meaning you cant have things like 3 jungle gyms spawn right next to each other, or Suffo Pits infamous 5 T-L walls in the middle. Only one of them can spawn per seed.
Asylum and Coldwind still dont follow this rule tho, and its probably because they havent made any new tiles for them yet like they did for Autohaven and MacMillan.
I expect changes to them soon, especially Coldwind. Hopefully we get a pass on map sizes as well after that
Nerf? I think not.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwUNGrkY1AMDo you like near infinite loops? Because this is how you make an infinite loop. Red forest needs to be killswitched. Thankfully my game crashes when that map tries to load. It's a shame I get that bug often.
Actually the devs need to rework the vault mechanic as follows: To get a fast vault you must be running in the direction parallel to the window for 0.75 seconds or it will be at best a medium vault.
Last night my friend found an even bigger exploit on Red Forest he was going to show me.
@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3366832#Comment_3366832
This is not true. Rancid Abattoir is the only fair corn map. It's ~8700m² and I win something like 97% of games on this map.The worst corn map in my opinion is Torment Creek which is ~10750m². I lose something like 95% of games on this map. I only win if survivors play it real dumb and let me three gen on the strong side of the map.You're probably being sarcastic on the numbers here, but is the premise a map is fair if you have an overwhelming win percentage on it?
A map is fair if :
- It's under 9000m² in size
- It has multiple possible 3 gen locations
- The tiles are not massively interlinked (this is why coal tower is not a fair map).
My numbers are not made up. Out of the last 20+ games on Torment Creek I have won once as Nemesis. This win was due to massive survivor incompetence.
I have won 20/21 games on Rancid Abattoir with one tie. If I recall correctly there was something fishy about that game because one of the generators went from 0 to 100 in about 40 seconds and no one with HF+toobox was alive. There was only one person working the generator as one person was dead, another was in chase and the other person was healing/booning/disinfecting/starting a gen at 0 progress.
The map is small. The tiles do not link well and after a few pallets are used the dead zones become massive. The main building loop is weak and easily countered.
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@Gandor said:
1, killer does not need to setup his hexes and waste 14s time doing so and X time finding totem
2, hexes are map wide, boons are not
3, survivors can't chase away killer
4, hexes are stronger (or at least should be stronger) then boons
They just can't work the same.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3366135#Comment_3366135
yes. Give us old old SC with 16s heal and I never ever ever will use CoH. Even old SC that was 32s (which many people called killer's perk at that point) was better then CoH and I never used boons while that version existed. But 42s (and pray to god killer can't apply mangled in any way) is just unreasonable. Do you realize the choise is between doing almost half a gen or getting one heal? That's just stupid.
Also once again - 21s heal from CoH is just stupid. It's the same as saying old eruption slows down gen progress by 120s for each down. Meaning it can technically be true under ideal conditions, but in fact the time can be anything between 21s and never - with average time going somewhere around minute (because totem searcha and because killer can snuff the totem much quicker then you can set it up and because survivors also need to travel to it same as killer and because sometimes survivor just can't go to it without throwing himself at the killer and because sometimes there are just no totems in game)
"1, killer does not need to setup his hexes and waste 14s time doing so and X time finding totem"
Each second as killer is 4x as valuable as 1 second for survivor. If killer could rekindle they would be wasting time to find more bones.
-"2, hexes are map wide, boons are not"
Most of the hexes are laughably bad:
Crowd Control, Face the Darkness, Haunted Ground, Huntress Lullaby, NOED, Plaything, Retrribution, Ruin, Third Seal, Thrill of the hunt, Undying.
Pentimento can be good if you can force people to cleanse.
Devour Hope is a perk I would like to see removed as it is actually more frustrating than NOED. In 9/10 games you lose it before it does anything. The one game where you get to use it is an automatic win. That's not fun for anyone.
Undying was strong and got gutted. Killers dont get to have strong perks. This perk showed that if hexes had to be re-cleansed then some of them would actually be viable.
Blood Favor is decent but gets cleansed instantly because it's a hex. This perk would be top tier if you had to remove all the bones on a map to get rid of it forever.
-"3, survivors can't chase away killer"
Actually this is false. You can pressure an objective to say : if you dont come and stop me I can do something that might cost you the game like break the only viable 3 gen on this map.
-"4, hexes are stronger (or at least should be stronger) then boons"
If hexes are going to be something that is permanently removed they should be beyond punishing.
Here's an example of what would be viable for a hex to be worth the risk.
- +5% movement speed for killer. Note : this is a flat boost so a 115% becomes 120% movement speed.
- Your totems can't be interacted with for 2 minutes at the start of the game. For every hex totem you bring after this perk your hex totems cannot be touched for +1 minute. (note ruin would still poof if someone dies).
- Survivors play the trial exhausted until this totem is broken.
- Fool's Greed - this was the perk my friend came up with back in like 2017. It was even announced that it was going to be added to the game on a dev stream. Fools Greed is not a hex perk but it affects hex perks. Whenever your totem is destroyed (making your perk inert) all survivors lose their perk in the same slot. For example if the killer had Haunted Ground in slot #2 then every survivor loses their second perk when the killer's hex perk is cleansed.
- Survivors cannot heal while this totem is active.
The reality is that boons are stronger than Hexes because the killer can't destroy them. You cannot "waste" a perk slot gambling that one of the survivors spent 1/16 perk slots on a boon. Even then Shattered Hope does not immediately destroy their boon perk on kick like a hex.
Boon/hex Rules massively favor survivors and need to change.
A. perks affecting bones can be rekindled until the bones or destroyed or are immediately destroyed when interacted with. Pick one.
B. Base kit the killer must be able to interact with dull totems and delete them on interaction. This would allow a killer to press space to stomp a boon and then press E to break bones. If they press space again they could rekindle their hex in that spot.
C. Either Shattered Hope needs to become Basekit or survivors lose the ability to interact with Hexes and can only interact with them by overwriting a hex with a boon.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3366832#Comment_3366832
Groaning doesn't have many good three gens spots at all? The gen spread is awful, there's gens guaranteed to spawn in four different corners.
What do you mean 3-gen or gtfo is broke?
Lery's is one of the best Killer maps for non-mobility Killers imo. It's got 3 or 4 strong pallets, RNG dependent vaults and a whole lot of LoS blockers.
-"Lery's is one of the best Killer maps for non-mobility Killers"
The library is insanely strong. There is only a strong 3 gen guaranteed on one end of the map. There are so many things about this map that suck. This map has a ton of vaults that lead to more vualts/pallets.
You can hide literally anywhere and you can't see startled birds from 50m away. This is most definitely not a killer map.
-"What do you mean 3-gen or gtfo is broke?"
I enjoy playing Nemesis. if I play suffocation pit I claim one end of the map and that's my side. They cant touch the 4 gen on that side. if they do I hurt them. Eventually all the pallets are gone and someone goes down. Then I camp them to death. This is very boring but it is how you win 90% of your games on this map.
The same strategy is the only way to win on Azerov's and RPD. You use attrition to remove pallets and don't commit to any chases unless someone is out of position and you can down them quickly.
Maps that are fair like : wrecker's yard and Abattoir are small so you can make a 3 gen with most of the generator options.
-"Groaning doesn't have many good three gens spots at all? The gen spread is awful"
The last time I played this map it was a 10 second walk to go from gen A to B to C. I could see gens C and A from generator B.
You haven't learned where to hold the right gens on this map yet.
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@Trickstom said:
Coal Tower and Wreckers' Yard are pretty much the only two maps that are actually balanced in the game currently.
It doesn't matter if you're playing a weak killer with no chase power/mobility, you're always going to have a great time on these maps.
Midwich is also considered a killer-sided map, but if you get a RNG that spawns 2 gens on the 1st floor and the other 5 on the 2nd floor, you're screwed.
Wreckers Yard is the fair map. It is small, has no BS building and a fair number of pallets although they are strong pallets. Generally speaking if a map is 9000m² or smaller it has the potential to be fair.
Lest we all forget that one of the most fair maps ever in the game was Demo's map. It was small and had mostly mindgamable pallets.
Coal tower is not fair because it is too easy to jump from one tile to the next without actually using resources. Iron Works of Misery often has the same problem. I played a game on IWoM tonight and if I had not brought Bamboozle there would have been a near infinite loop where a window from one gym linked to another.
After Wreckers yard the next most fair map is probably Father Campbell's Chapel. What do both of the fair maps have in common? Small size and you can make a 3 gen in numerous places.
@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3362367#Comment_3362367
i don't think so. coal tower has ton of pallet and linking. Iron works is really big map. Suffocation pit in the middle is an actual nightmare if the setup is remotely possible to link.
Shelter woods is really killer sided for wrong reasons which is there is way too few pallets on the map. I am so happy they're fixing that in next chapter. one of best changes in tool of torment chapter.
Autohaven maps are survivor sided however Wretched shop has shelter wood problem too little pallets. they need add few more pallets on it and azeroth resting place is an annoying 3 gen map. its survivor sided if the killer has no 3 gen kick perks but killer sided if he does. it is lop-sided map with different imbalances.
-"Shelter woods is really killer sided"
Maybe for Nurse and Blight pre-patch. Overall this map was broken for most M1 killers before they added the completely ridiculous and broken "camp" building.
@Tostapane said:
we'll see (i won't consider the size of the map in this instance since everyone know how big certain maps are):
1 Badham (variations included): awful due to certain pallets that are too much safe paired with loops that can be chained easily alongside with 4 strong buildings (shack, the school, the "fake basement" and the house with brekable walls)
2 haddonfiled : few pallets (all of them are safe except for 2) overall but, but it's one of the safest maps in the game due to the houses that can be considered (almost) infinites (bonus: i personally despise that map)
3 swamp (boat): the boat is an infinite, pallets are enough safe and there's a couple of zones that are really annoying to deal with (bonus: i personally despise that map)
3.1 swamp (house): that house is evil incarnate due to the HUGE resources that survivors have to keep you busy (worthless chaing in that zone unless you are aganist potatoes or you are using the nurse), not to mention the other smaller building that aganist 4.4 killers is an infinite, collisions and hitboxes are weird (bonus: i personally despise that map)
4 garden of joy (pain): another map with a building that's an actual infinite, tons of pallets (most of them safe) easily chainable between each other and jungle gyms (bonus: i personally despise that map)
5 macmillan (soffocation pit): the mine it's a strong loop, add also that the centre of the map is a loopfest full of walls and window easily chainable between each other (bonus: i personally despise that map)
5.1 macmillan (ironwork of misery): strong building paired with good amount of pallets and jungle gyms easily chainable
5.2 macmillan (groaning storehouse): same as above
5.3 macmillan (shelter woods): same as above
5.4 macmillan (coal tower): same as above (but at least with less jungle gyms)
6 corn maps (all variants): low visibility paired with safe pallets and certain buildings that are too much safe (nothing new until now)
7 the game: palletown
8 erie of crows: good amount of pallets and windows, but this one is somewhat fair if rng won't screw you badly with double pallets (a pity for the height of certain loops that won't give any chance for ranged killers tho)
9 lery: too much walls, too much windows and too much pallets all together (bonus: i personally despise that map)
10 ormond: the central building is strong and some loops aren't exactly fair
11 midwitch: good and strong amount of pallets that can be chained with windows
12 dead dwag saloon: only 2 zones are really problematic/strong: the saloon itself and the jungle gyms (it can be easily considered a WHOLE and HUGE jungle gym) on the other side of the map
13 autohavens: aside the central buildings that are strong loops and the ones with a bus, the map has a fair amount of jungle gyms
14 raccon city: palletown plus a couple of loops really nasty to deal with with no room for mindgames
15 crotus (asylum): strong central building with many jungle gyms
15.1 crotus (chapel): central building can spawn with an infinite in it, good amount of jungle gyms
16 yamaoka maps: weird collisions, a couple of jungle gyms and good amount of pallets
17 decimated borgo: actually the worst map in the game imo with extremely bad hitboxes, collisions and objects placement (look at the shack for example: it's even more safe due to the objects that will block the killer more easily), tons of pallets, loops and jungle gyms, not to mention the awful colors that this map have (good luck finding pools of blood and scratchmarks here). Bonus: i HATE this map with a burning passion
18 red forest maps (new): too much objects (ranged killers will cry when they'll play in this map, killers like billy, wesker, blight and oni to some degree are heavily hindered), loops were enforced and the main structures still have the same problems as before (the house in the huntress map is still an infinite)
19 HAWKINS: (REDACTED)
this sums up everything
-"corn maps (all variants): low visibility paired with safe pallets and certain buildings that are too much safe"
This is not true. Rancid Abattoir is the only fair corn map. It's ~8700m² and I win something like 97% of games on this map.
The worst corn map in my opinion is Torment Creek which is ~10750m². I lose something like 95% of games on this map. I only win if survivors play it real dumb and let me three gen on the strong side of the map.
@Pulsar said:
Most of the MacMillan and Autohaven maps are Killer-sided I feel, besides Gas Heaven and Groaning Storehouse.
RPD is probably Killer-sided but the map is just miserable, Midwich is Killer-sided.
I think Lery's is Killer-sided as well, though perhaps Killer-leaning would be more accurate. I think the same of The Game, depending on the Killer.
You already mentioned Dead Dawg
"Most of the MacMillan and Autohaven maps are Killer-sided I feel, besides Gas Heaven and Groaning Storehouse."
Groaning Storehouse has some of the strongest 3 gen potential of any map in the game. Also you can almost always hook someone in the middle of a three gen or on the "wing" edges of a map and soft camp someone from 30m away. This is one of the easiest maps to win if you play like I do.
Ironworks is "mostly" fair but way too big. Every other map in the MME tileset is in the "not fair" list. Any map in the 3 gen or gtfo list is automatically thrown in the the broken pile. Therefore RPD, Azarov's and suffocation pit are broken.
Wretched shop is "borderline" in terms of fair. It's too big and needs to lose some area and then maybe I would put it in the fair category. It's not omg I hate this map but it's not an easy win.
"RPD is probably Killer-sided but the map is just miserable, Midwich is Killer-sided."
Any map in the 3 gen or gtfo list is automatically thrown in the the broken pile. Therefore RPD, Azarov's and suffocation pit are all broken.
Let's talk about something very briefly.... Midwich is killer sided but it's not "garden of joy" level killer sided.
-"I think Lery's is Killer-sided as well, though perhaps Killer-leaning would be more accurate. I think the same of The Game, depending on the Killer."
Lery's favors survivors unless you are playing Ghostface, scratched Mirror MM or Hag. Those killers make this map miserable for survivors. Lerys is way too big and has far too many vaults for it to be fair.
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@yeeeitsdustin said:
Just for reference, this is an idea that I heard from Otzdarva on the I'm All Ears podcast. I wanted to post about it here so more people can hear about it, and it can hopefully gain some traction. Here's the suggested change:
Decisive Strike will do exactly what is does currently. However, when the killer is stunned by a survivor using Decisive Strike, the killer will lose the ability to use their power for 10 seconds.
This will hopefully make it so Decisive Strike will affect killers the same across the board. What I mean by this is that the Decisive Strike change will stop the issue of Nurse from being able to blink on top of you 1 second later or Blight being able to pinball his way over to down you, while a basic M1 killer such as Trapper has nothing to help him catch up to you after being stunned by Decisive Strike. Instead, a killer such as Nurse or Blight will be forced to hold forward and chase you normally just like a basic M1 killer for 10 seconds after being stunned by Decisive Strike.
Let me know if you would change anything about the Decisive Strike change I suggested!
DS is already in a fine place. It has the potential to be powerful or not based on where you go down and how your team responds to you using the perk.
What it sounds like you want is a "free escape". That's exactly what the perk was before and that is why the perk got nerfed.
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@BlueHorkew said:
Ok, so before it starts, i am not going to talk about pallets or M2s, you stop reading if you want.
What do i think are the true issues with DH. I think 2 issues:
1- The perk is super inconsistent because of Ping, lag, delay you name it. Timing a DH on console feels super unnatural because you are DH before an attack because if you don't the game just won't register or even worse makes you exhausted on the ground
2- The Reward is MASSIVE, the reward for pulling of a DH is so bigger than the old DH. This made the waiting for DH worse because its game-changing dodging a hit with the new DH, the old DH wasn't a big deal because you need structures to get anything (that gave rise to the DH for distance, which was problematic, i think all remember that)
So, you now have a perk that is really clunky for the game but because of the reward really has a hold on killers.
I honestly don't know how to fix any of them. I just know that i don't want the perk to loose its identity or for the perk to start getting exceptions to when it shouldn't work.
In the end, i don't use DH anymore and honestly i am doing better on my games because of it. How do you solve this issues, should bhvr do anything at all. Idk and honestly don't really care.
I just think this are the true issues behind the perk, why it holds so much power over killers while survivors don't feel like perk is overpowered at same time. So i don't think resolving the issue is as easy as many people think.
-"The Reward is MASSIVE, the reward for pulling of a DH is so bigger than the old DH"
The solution to this perk is very simple. Pick one :
- DH can only be used once per game.
- After using DH once you become broken for the rest of the game.
- DH does not give a sprint burst effect and instead will rely on your ability to vault or throw a pallet before the killer recovers.
- DH changes the Deep wound status as follows : While in a Deep Would state with Dead Hard equipped your deep wound will cause you to bleed out while running. You gain +5 seconds of time before you bleed out. (to make a long story short you have 20 seconds after a DH and then you will fall over unless you stop to mend - running will not pause the timer).
- Equipping DH increases all "heal" actions performed on you by 100 (including mending).
The problem with DH is that extends a chase for much longer than both SB and Lithe. It is important to note that DH allows you to loop normally and then take a hit. Instead of taking a lethal hit you "reset" the chase and can sometimes loop for another 30 seoconds or longer. Meanwhile three other people are working generators. So that means +30 seconds of chase = 90 seconds of time gained for your team on generators. This breaks the game.
There is no viable nerf to DH that does not remove the "third health state".
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@philward1953 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3366129#Comment_3366129
Getting bloodpoints obviously isnt why people tunnel and I don't claim that, but giving killers less for doing it would be a way of discouraging them from doing so. Even if its just slightly.
Also, did you just ask survivors to stop doing gens as quick as possible?
Also, I like your deadlock idea.
-" giving killers less for doing it would be a way of discouraging them from doing so. "
You get more points if you win than if you lose - generally speaking. Also people like to win so for a number of people you would do nothing. We already have a pip penalty if you camp. And if I want to win the game more than I want to pip then I will camp you to death if that is the winning move.
-"Also, did you just ask survivors to stop doing gens as quick as possible?"
That's an interesting way to put it. The reality is that gens need to get interrupted regularly and naturally as a base part of the game.
The reasoning tunneling happens as I said before is because the survivor objective is too easy/quick to complete. Nobody wants to hold a button for more time. So what needs to happen is that they can't just "afk" on a generator (as Hexy is fond of saying).
Imagine for example if we had a base mechanic where your generator gets to 90% and then your friend gets hooked. Your generator immediately gets blocked (because it has the most progress) and starts regressing as if the killer had kicked it (which means CoB or overcharge gen speeds would apply). The killer has 15 seconds to get more than 16m away from the hook unless they start a chase; failure to leave would end the effect. As long as no one else is on the hook your generator cannot be touched and will continue to regress. You can either start a new one or go rescue the hooked player.
-"Also, I like your deadlock idea."
It's kind of unfair really that one side has lots and lots of anti tunneling and the other side basically gets nothing. I would love to see a killer kick perk where you kick a generator and it can't be interrupted for ~20-25 seconds. The perk would have no cooldown as your travel speed will limit how often you can use it. Furthermore it is fundamentally not viable to just kick gens without getting downs and that more than anything would limit the perk.
@Conrad16th said:
On my first day of playing DBD I was thinking it is a horror game at which I am meant to die. I felt like I won each time I got high points for the match. I played with friends and I had no problem.
Next day some of us actually survived.
Then I tried to play killer. And first thing on my mind was to kill one of survivors to have better chance for win. It is the most obvious and optimal path.
A few days later someone told me that tunneling is an actualy a thing.
So we all start complaining and calling killers tunnelers.
Now I know that when we spread on gens, 90 seconds to the game we can be on 2 gens left. If we are 4 alive killer is already losing.
For the killer in most cases is no way to tell if he play against good survivors and did they spread on genes or not. Before you decide to tunnel it maybe already too late. When I play nice as a killer (and I always do) I have matches when I am on 1 gen in 3 min even if survivors have 200 h in the game.
The problem
Tunneling hurts mostly when you new to the game and you play solo survivor. When you are an average survivor then the problem gets smaller, with swf even smaller, good survivors and on competive level survivors starting to have no problem at all.
You can not solve a problem that is existing and not existing at the same time unless you do another game mode with separate rules.
The game offers a bunch of counter plays that make this game more fun and push survivors to play as a part of a team.
Imagine unhook. 10s base BT, another 10s of BT perk or Off the record, speed bust after hit, Decisive Strike into The Lithe, Anti-Hemorrhagic Syringe med kit, body block, For the people, die on palet....
Obviously this is not happening very often but it doesn't mean survivors not trying. Smart killer will give up chase before all chain of event will destroy him. If not.. then this is gg for the killer.
Whatever you give to survivors to prevent tunneling they will abuse it.
Some survivors, when slug, they will crawl to the edge of the map and bleed out for 3 min just to prevent the killer from getting points for hook. Survivors are not an angels.
Base kit BT is not only use to take hits and body block. Is used for unhooking also. If you have two survivors on hook you are not in as strong position as before the patch with base BT.
Is not nice to be tunneled 3 times in a row I got it. But if my teammates won one of this games I am good with that.
So where is the problem?
Problem is in the community.
And the best prove for that is the fact that there is no non tixic name for winning strategy for the killer. People like to complain - tunneling, camping, sluging.
Hit and run is not optimal and gen kicking build sometimes don't work with bad RNG and good survivors The killers who use them are called tryhards in post game chat.
Recently I was watching championships. People on competitive level. The Blight sacrificed 4 survs at 5 gens. Why would you apply any kind of mechanic to punish the killer for quick hooking and wining the game at 5 gens? That was big missplay on the survivors side.
Another match - The Doctor looses with 0 hooks. How do you tunnel in this situation? Bare in mind that this survivors had only one brown tool box because of competitive rules.
If you still reading this, when I play the match I have 2 main goals - learn and get decent Bloodpoints. Maybe that aproach will help you. Yes, I am a bit upset if I got tunneled or survivors rush the gens and leve before I get a few hooks. But this is not happening so often to cry about it for years. Sometimes you lose and you getting triggered but thats makes the game more fun and not boring.
From what I hear even from an experienced streamers, people would like to take from the game tunneling, camping, slugging, gen kicking. Imo, whatever you left with it will be boring by is own. Find, chase, kick 5 palets, hook, find new surv, chase, 4 plaets, hook... The decision making proces is narowed totaly. Realy? is it what everybody wants?
Conclusions
This is a competitive horror multiplayer game not adventures fairytale game. Just be ready to be sacrificed and have fun.
Entity is waiting for you.
-"Problem is in the community"
This is true.
I was asked why I tunneled someone out of the game tonight and I said you tunneled the gens so I tunneled your friend. My goal is to defend the generators. If I can't reasonably do that then I have to inflict as much damage on the enemy team as possible. Removing one player from the game does that.
Tunneling a survivor is not a toxic act. It is a desperation move that is required because you have no real viable alternative.
The problem is that we essentially have proliferation.
- Survivors tunnel gens to win as fast as possible so they all escape.
- The killer starts tunneling in the next round at 5 generators so that what happened last round never happens again.
- The survivors who got tunneled at 5 gens last game double down by picking a survivor favored map and bring gen rush items/perks.
- Killers stop playing weak killers and play Blight/Nurse with strong addons. They tunnel even harder.
- This creates a loop that makes the entire community unhappy.
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https://youtu.be/GwUNGrkY1AM
Here's a video showing how broken the new loop is on red forest. There's a reason people are choosing to be sent there even more now than before.
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The new Red forest looks nice but it doesn't play well for the killer. This map would be so much better if it were way smaller.
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@Thusly_Boned said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3366406#Comment_3366406
Players like Otz and many other 8-10K hour players might need to, sure. But they're not representative of the vast majority of the player base, or virtually any of the people on this forum. Plus Otz isn't the voice of god, there others as good as he who don't share that opinion.
The player base is loaded with people who think they are better than they are, and that they are somehow they are playing a different game than everyone else.
Plus Otz was largely mostly talking about situational tunneling, or at least that's how I interpreted it.
When it comes to the notion that you have to start every game with a tunnel to win at any MMR (again, "top level" is a myth), I say BS. Of course doing so increases your chance of winning, but it will do so against a potato squad or a seal team, but most often isn't necessary.
I'm not saying don't do it situationally (like when the game is starting to slip away from you), but going into every match with a quick tunnel as your gameplan is generally just overkill.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3366403#Comment_3366403
No one has to, but more people should.
Does stomping all over people who never really had a chance make you feel better? I know it doesn't make me feel like I accomplished anything but demoralizing someone(s) who were mismatched.
It's not great that it is incumbent on us to make up for BHVR's limp d MMR system, but it's better for the game when people play with a little discretion and thoughtfulness.
And for the record, I have seen consideration shown between players quite a bit. Nowhere near most of the time, but it's not unheard of.
All I am saying is maybe just let a match breathe for a minute before going into stone cold killer mode, so see if it's even called for.
Truetalent, Otz, CMWinter, Hexy and many others all tunnel. What do they have in common? They try to win - not have "feelgood" games.
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@bunnyfengenthusiast said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3366112#Comment_3366112
Yeah I can't take you seriously, I'm sorry.
Most people playing "normally" never use NOED. It was good in 2016 and if you don't know why - go have a look.
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@Thusly_Boned said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3366377#Comment_3366377
I mean play how you want, but it's really not necessary most of the time. The "you need to tunnel to win" sentiment in the meta is so overblown.
I'm not saying hook everyone one at a time in order or anything, but just drumming someone out of the game asap early in the game to increase your chances of winning because of some misguided notion that you can't win unless you do is both excessive and lame. If it's a sweat squad, sure. But going into every game with that mindset just kinda sucks, imo.
But to the OP: no, I haven't noticed an increase. Like anything else, there are some days you might see it happen a bunch and it'll feel like a trend, but sample sizes are a thing. I generally don't think it's as big a problem as it is made out to be.
-"The "you need to tunnel to win" sentiment in the meta is so overblown."
Ah yes that's why Otz - who is always reluctant to tunnel repeatedly says : I have to tunnel this person out to win.
When the 9k hour professional streamer says that - it's a solid indicator.
When almost all the really try hard competitive mind set streamers tunnel - you know it's necessary.
Where it is not necessary is mid/low MMR which is where most people play.
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Most of the main streamers have taken to a hard tunneling strategy. They either only chase two people or they just chase one person out of the game.
I do the same every time.
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@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
I can honestly agree with all the gripe I hear from the killer side, regardless of experiencing it. It would be frustrating to not get that down when you thought you would, or should have. Thats a human element that I wont contest.
But its a 0.5 second window, and typically useless after one use in a match vs a competent killer. The risk is high, but the reward is higher. The only change I could see happening is the hit sprint being reduced. Removing it would gut it like Eruption's initial hit. I have never used Eruption on killer personally, but as a survivor, its far less scary, and that makes me a lil sad.
I'd like to know why Eruption is to killers as DH is to survivors. Lots of 'If one stays/goes, the other should too', mostly from people at work who play and just a few here. This stuff is so interesting!
But I think this won't resolve so Ill give a smile and nod. Thanks for explaining a bit more and knowing BHVR, it'll get over/under tuned, or simply ignored.
-"But its a 0.5 second window, and typically useless after one use in a match vs a competent killer."
And that 0.5 second window can allow you to extend a chase for 30 seconds. That's not fair relative to SB or Lithe - much less to the killer's objective.
Losing 30 seconds in a chase against one survivor means the enemy team has three characters working during that time. That's 30 seconds * 3 = 90 seconds gained by the enemy team.
Imagine for example a DBD parallel universe where the killer had a perk named "despair". Once per game you can "rollback" a completed generator to 0% progress after it has been completed. Press "E" on the completed generator and it will reset as if it had never been touched.
That's one instance of 90 seconds gain for the killer. Would you want to play against this new perk I have called "despair"? No one would want that. Imagine if "despair" could be recharged every time a new surviovr uses DH against you. If 4 people use DH then you can use Despair 5 times in total. Would that be fun? It would theoretically theory be "fair" in terms of time saved/chase.
Nobody enjoys playing against Dead Hard. Fundamentally speaking it breaks the "fair play" rule. If a game element is not both fun to use and fun to play against when on the receiving end then it is does not abide by fair play.
How about this for a nerf to DH? Equipping dead hard removes one of your hook states. That would be a rather "fair" nerf in terms of time gained/lost for the risk/reward. It would not be "fair" for the game because a killer would just camp you out after hooking you every time.
The more I think about it - DH should be a "once per game" move or it should make you broken for the rest of the game. That keeps it powerful with proper risk and reward.
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@itsPina said:
Many months ago you claimed the mid chapter patches will be used to address newly released killers. That happened maybe twice since announcing it like two years ago.
Why is it that onryo is still heavily addon reliant? Why is knight still incredibly unfun to play as and against? Why is the dredge still incapable of teleporting to an unlocked locker if there is a locked one directly next to it? Why does pyramid head have no good add-ons while pinhead has one of the most busted add-ons ever (engineers fang). Why are killers like demo allowed to be basically hard countered by one perk (dh)? Why has every map that has released the last two years been *incredibly* survivor sided? Hell even survivors don't like the new maps.
It's crazy to me that if BHVR were to just listen to some of the bigger content creators that are sharing our points of view the game would be in a much better state yet they never do.
Why is TWINS STILL BUGGED? You are literally charging money for a broken chapter on Steam.
Shame on you BHVR. Please do better.
The truth is that the developers fundamentally do not understand their game. I do not even want to type the alternative as that might sound like criticism for which I might get banned.
- They do not play their game at a level where they can make fair/balanced changes to high tier play. Therefore they do not balance for high skill players (largely speaking). When M. Cote got schooled in Korea while playing Hag he was told : "If you were better at the game then this game would have better balance".
- Survivors having fun = company makes more money. Therefore for 6 years the gameplan was keep killer just barely playable and make sure survivors had fun. Before they bought the IP from the parent company they were under a mandate for ~2 years where they were told not to nerf survivors again.
- Most of the game decisions trivialize playing any killer other than Nurse/Blight due to map design and game mechanics. Why are there even maps larger than 9000m²? Killers with no movement power should either never play maps larger than that or no map should be that large.
- Why do we have so many loops in game that remove all ability of the killer to "get you" if you are an M1 killer? It's a 100% hard stop that completely invalidates playing that killer archetype. At the very least all such killers should probably be buffed to 120% movement speed.
- The survivor objective can be completed in under 3 minutes. The fastest I have seen is around 2 minutes and 44 seconds. Generally speaking the killer objective takes about 6-8 minutes to win the game. A killer can only win very quickly if the survivors make a massive mistake. An average comp game takes about 4 minutes to finish the generators. A skilled SWF without the rules to limit perks/items to one instance each can do it much faster consistently.
- Killers have no "reassurance" or "deadlock" base kit but survivors have plenty of anti tunneling and gen rushing perks. This highly contributes to why the killer objective is so slow. Can you imagine if the killer had a perk that read : after kicking a generator that generator cannot be interrupted from the regression state for 20 seconds. Furthermore the killer has 1/4th of 1 survivor as their base regression speed. There are 4 survivors so they have a 16x advantage potential over the killer. This is foolish.
- Killers have no reliable method to "rush" survivors to their death on hooks. Survivors have TONS of methods to rush generators. If you think generators are "fine" when someone can complete one in 40-45 seconds alone then maybe hook states should be able to be rushed by 60% too. The takeaway here is that generators probably need to be more like 120 seconds base if we are going to have so much rushing OR make no more than 10% of the total time be allowed to be "rushed" by a single player. In other words after 9 seconds of "proving thyself" you get nothing.
- Killer perks are not allowed to have Synergy. You are not allowed to "chain" Pop goes the Weasel with Oppression. Survivor perks are allowed to have synergy. You can use Stake out and not hit great checks and be rewarded as if you did - to get that ~40 second generator.
- Playing killer is not really fun compared to a SWF because you are alone and have no interaction. In fact you need to isolate yourself from other friends on discord playing other games because you need to hear nuanced breathing. On the topic of SWF : they are broken and heavily contribute to "unfun" feelings for killers. But they will not be nerfed because it makes survivors happy. In fact all survivors got huge buffs with the hud changes and killers only got harder games that are less fun to play because everyone has SWF levels of info.
- Multiple game elements allow survivors to prevent a killer from getting hooks. You can make a flashlight or pallet save to prevent a hook. Even DH fits in this category as it can extend a chase by 30 seconds because it exists. Imagine if missing a skill check or even being interrupted from working a generator caused that generator to lose 30 seconds of progress. That would be reflective of what it is like sometimes to play killer. You could spend 40 seconds getting two hits on a survivor only to have the rest of the team body blocking the hook. Now you have to spend another 30 seconds chasing that person down - again.
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@Zaydin said:
It's effectively an infinite use medkit for every survivor. Either make it a single use per survivor and if the Boon gets snuffed out, it's gone for good just like Hex perks or make it so that only one Boon totem can be active on the map period.
Hexes and Boons need the same rules: killer/survivor can rekindle their totem perk indefinitely as long as the bones are not broken.
Killers should have the base kit open to be able to kick a boon and destroy the bones.
@GannTM said:
It’s already been nerfed 6 billion other times. Perk is fine.
Infinite healing required you to take the perk : self care for roughly 6 years.
Infinite healing completely ruins the "hit and run" playstyle.
Base kit killers should be able to break dull totems before they become boons. Shattered Hope should be : destroying all boon perks of the player whose totem was kicked on the first kick. That would be balanced.
Imagine if you needed a boon perk to be able to cleanse a hex perk. That sounds broken right? That's because it is but that's how it works in survivor land.
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@philward1953 said:
Okay, so I have two ideas that could help discourage killers from tunneling, and actively make it worse for them to do so in regards to winning the match.
1.) Implement a MASSIVE bloodpoint deficiency if the killer is found downing and hooking the same survivor within 60 (this can change) seconds of them being rescued. If a killer tunnels a survivor, then the game should maybe take into account the amount of generators left in the trial, and apply a percentage to the amount of bloodpoints the killer would receive from the chase and the hook.
- E.g. 5 gens = 50% BP taken from chase/hook, 4 gens = 40%, etc. (These numbers can be changed obv.)
- I want to acknowledge how there ARE reasonable scenarios where tunneling is key, so I feel like taking how many gens are left is a good starting point. The next thing I would take into account would be hooks using the same percentage method, but I feel gens are maybe doing enough.
2.) A survivor should last longer on hook if tunneled. The same 60-second timer could be used. If a survivor is hooked within 60 seconds of their last unhook, then the struggle timer could be increased.
- Currently, the struggle timer lasts 60 seconds. Maybe if a survivor is tunneled it lasts 70 or 80 seconds.
- OR, and this may be better when it comes to acknowledging reasonable tunneling scenarios, the amount of gens is once again taken into consideration, and 1 gen equals 5-10 seconds
- E.g. 5 gens = +50 seconds/+25 seconds, 4 gens = +40 seconds/20 seconds, etc.
I don't want to pursue COMPLETELY removing tunneling from the game, I don't think that's responsible or correct, but I just think it needs to be DETRIMENTAL to a killer in the early stages of the game (5-4 gens left). I think the notion that a lot of killers have (that they need to tunnel at 4-5 gens left to win) is VERY flawed, and doesn't promote skillful gameplay or learning. I think it's everyone's right to play how they wanna play (obv.) but I don't think an unskillful thing such as tunneling at the early stages of the game should not be very detrimental within the match for the killer.
This is coming from someone who plays survivor and killer mostly equally nowadays. I don't think this suggestion is perfect, but I think it is a good starting point. I'd hate to get a 4k as a killer by tunneling off 5 gens left and see I only cracked like 15k bloodpoints.
*Upon further consideration, the 60 seconds is probably too long for either timer. I'd reduce it to 30 or so. Also, I would for sure NOT have struggle timers increased by 10 seconds per gen. I'd go with 5 seconds per gen. 10 is wayyyy to long.
Also, I'm seeing so many complaints about basekit BT being used for bodyblocking or taking a hit. The point of BT is to make tunneling right off hook just less effective enough so a survivor has the chance to put themselves in a situation to make a skillful or helpful play and not just go down immediately to the killer. Unlucky for killers, taking a hit may be the best play in a certain situation. It only lasts 10 seconds, and a killer can usually wait out the BT or bodyblock the survivor to exhaust the timer in order to hit them without any punishment or discouragement (even at 5 gens, which is where I think the problem lies).
-"1. Implement a MASSIVE bloodpoint deficiency"
This isn't why people tunnel. You might as well punish SWF with point penalties for playing together to curb the advantage of voice coms. It's very reasonable actually to say : you will be given a 20% point penalty to your 4 man team because you are likely to earn 20% more points. It would make survivors very angry.
Do you not notice that for the most of the day killer is sitting with a 100% bonus? Nobody wants to play killer anymore.
-2. A survivor should last longer on hook if tunneled"
This is the wrong idea. You have perks to prevent tunneling. They include DS, Reassurance, Off the Record. The killer has no perks to prevent gen tunneling besides Deadlock - which has never appeared in the shrine.
Survivors need to stop tunneling generators so the killer stops feeling like they need to tunnel the survivors to win.
Tunneling one player for three hooks reduces enemy team efficiency by 25% so THAT is always going to be the killer's best play unless they get a base kit buff where something else is better. As an example : give the killer a stackable 9% debuff that affects generators/totems/hooks/healing/chests/doors. Every time you hook someone for the first time the team gets another 9% debufff to all actions (except things like unhook speed/vaulting/moving). If the killer sacrifices a player then they can't get the 9% stacking debuff from a player who has not been hooked anymore.
As a reminder: this needs to be base kit. Deadlock also needs to be base kit and have "rollback protection" so that if two gens finish at the same time then one is returned to 99% progress and blocked for 30 seconds. The perk by the same name would extend that timer by 30 seconds.
Before we had bast kit BT the survivor objective was shorter than the killer objective. Nothing changed here in a positive way for the killer. Time to kill went up and the killer had to tunnel MORE as a result of base kit BT.
Let us not forget about the hud changes. This makes survivors massively more efficient. What did killers get? They get more frustrating games that end faster.
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@bunnyfengenthusiast said:
The visual "uplift" for this map is the worst thing I think I've ever seen introduced in DBD. It's like the devs looked at the map and thought "hey, maybe we should follow the AAA trend of making pretty graphics but with atrocious level design and inconsistent collisions.
Let's look at the individual things that contribute to making this map trash. First off, the performance on this map is much worse than anywhere else in the game, because of all the extra clutter.
Second, this map has even worse fog than Eyrie. I never thought I'd live to see the day where this was possible but here we are.
Third, why is there clutter ALL OVER THE MAP? I play Blight, and I'll have my rush interrupted by some random stump, or a fallen tree log, or some random bush, or anything in between, that serves no purpose but to scream "look, our map has a lot of things in it".
Speaking of which, why are the collisions so atrocious? I thought I had seen it all with Yamaoka, but this map takes it to a whole new level. Every surface feels like it's covered in butter, and every surface that looks like it should be covered in butter is bumpy as hell. The only thing with even remote collision is the bushes (and you'll find out pretty soon because there's one every 3 feet, and at every pallet).
Just give us back old Red Forest and let's pretend this never happened.
-"pretty graphics but with atrocious level design and inconsistent collisions."
If they had reworked this tileset to be ~9000m² it could have been very fair.
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@bunnyfengenthusiast said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3365588#Comment_3365588
Are you also implying NOED is a bad perk?
NOED is a terrible perk. it was used well in comp before it worked on all attacks. It was a great perk in 2016.
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@bunnyfengenthusiast said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3365353#Comment_3365353
Comp players still use it. If you think you know better than comp players, by all means.
Comp scene is completely different. They also sometimes used NOED before it became a only on regular attacks perk.
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@bunnyfengenthusiast said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3365186#Comment_3365186
Current pop is fine imo. Provides just enough regression to slow down a high progress gen, without being stupid oppressive when your teammates are feeding hooks. If anything, bump it up to 25% of current progress.
-"Current pop is fine imo."
That's fine use it. Most people don't because it was reduced in effectiveness on average by about 13 seconds of regression less than it gave before.
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@BlueHorkew said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3364542#Comment_3364542
Regression is supposed to extend the killer's time, not prevent gens from happening.
You can argue if the values are balanced or not, but base regression being 1/4 of a survivor progression is that way for a reason.
Regression exist to buy time. The killer objective is to kill the survivor not to prevent gens.
This past 3 gen meta already kinda shows what happens if base regression is too strong, killers loose interest in chases and start defending gens and areas.
I am not saying what we have is perfect, but there is a reason base regression needs to be weak. In the end, for the best health of the game, buffing regression needs to be in a way that incentives active gameplay and chases
-"Regression is supposed to extend the killer's time, not prevent gens from happening."
And the base value is so low it makes kicking generators be a waste of time without kick perks. We have plenty of videos where you see a 4 man SWF team finish the gens in under 3 minutes. And while this is extreme 4 minutes is still very possible. That's messed up. The killer objective is closer to 8 minutes unless the survivors make some massive mistake. And that is the problem with DBD because the time to finish generators is massively shorter than the time to finish the survivors.
You can't really defend the generators without perks and therefore must run 2-4 perks to defend generators if the survivors are efficient.
- "But I can play weak tier killer just fine in mid MMR with meme perks"
Yes that's just it.... you can play whatever at mid tiers and it works because people are not efficient.
@bunnyfengenthusiast said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3364542#Comment_3364542
Killer doesn't need to match the regression of survivors, and attempting to is what leads to stale gameplay like 3-gen camping. The fun part of this game is the chase, not kicking gens. If there's an issue with survivors doing gens too fast, we address that instead of turning trials into a footsie where survivors bring BNP commos and killers bring 4x slowdown.
-"Killer doesn't need to match the regression of survivors"
Killers need a meaningful way to slow down generators as part of their base kit besides : remove one player from the game. But that doesn't exist so killers just remove the first player to get hooked. What you've decided is that tunneling is fine because killers should not get meaningful generator defense perks.
Survivors got free base kit BT. Why didn't killers get free corrupt or deadlock? The answer is because survivor's wouldn't like it. The reality is that most people don't care if the killer objective gets tunneled. They only care if a survivor is marked for removal.
Objectives that cannot be defended lead to unfun feelings. This is especially the case when you are a survivor and your life becomes the killer's objective with their third hook. Most people forget that it isn't fun when you play killer and you have no chance to defend the generators. An organized team will "pre-run" whenever you focus on them and everyone else just sits on the generator with no real pressure directed towards them.
Survivors have at least 7 perks that can speed up generators. There are no meaningful perks to speed up a survivor's death. Imagine if killers had numerous perks to make you die faster. Imagine for example that the time to kill on a hook was reduced by 50-80% of what it is now. Would that be fun? The answer is no. Should that be a consideration for the game? No. What's the point in mentioning it? Maybe we shouldn't have any perks that speed up generators unless the killer can stack massive slowdown that cancels out multiple running "speed up" builds. Then the problem would be that the game would be unbearable if gens took forever and you had no "speed up" perks to cancel the slowdown.
You may or not be aware but most of the maps we have are nowhere near close to being fair. Most of them are too large, have too many safe loops or have way too many "time wasting" map features.
Now if you play Blight or Nurse all the maps are "fine". But that leaves nearly the entire killer roster with a problem. Do we just say only Blight and Nurse can play 50% of the maps? That works and is a simple fix. But most people won't like that - if you use a farm offering and you're not playing Blight or Nurse the only viable option is abattoir. A red forest offering is just outright refunded and the game picks some other map that is ~9000m².
A more simple solution is to just say give every killer 120% speed if they lack a movement power (including teleports) or projectile attack. Trapper, Pig, and Doctor would be a lot more viable with +5% base speed. Yes they would ruin a lot of the "safe" loops and that's exactly the point.
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@HalloweenKid909 said:
Dead hard in my opinion is better than it was.
Because now you hit the survivor with endurance they get a big ass speed boost and make it to another pallet or multiple.
Before : you swing (they dead hard) and dont get the huge speed boost but have a big DH distance
WHAT THEY SHOULD DO: You dead hard (no endurance) (no big dead hard distance) and you just avoid the hit without making way too much distance.
I dont give a damn if you disagree but tell me what you think anyway ( I PLAY BOTH SIDES EQUALLY)
EDIT: They should just remove dead hard 💀
If Eruption was too much for survivors after a few months then we should obliterate dead hard since it has been overpowered for years.
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@Utilitarian_Belt said:
If the killer pins me, or another survivor, in the corner via body blocking there needs to be a way of breaking out. I propose the following baseline rule/ability:
If a survivor is touching the killer for 20 seconds, they can interact with the killer to punch them back a couple meters.
I had a match the other night where I took a wrong turn, a losing killer body block pinned me, and my.......teammates.......refused to open the exit gates, making for a really long match. I shouldn't need a one minute leaver penalty to get out of that situation.
How about : remove all bodbblocking all the time.
The rules need to go both ways. You can't just write them to make it more fun for survivors only.
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DH needs to provide the same chase benefit that SB or Lithe can offer.
It should not be a "third health state".
It should not be superior to SB and Lithe.
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@bunnyfengenthusiast said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3364399#Comment_3364399
No, we don't need to buff reg any more. If survivors are too efficient, you don't nerf it by making the killer able to hold a 3 gen indefinitely; you nerf it by reducing efficiency. Basekit 60s corrupt would be much better than bringing back old pop.
-"No, we don't need to buff reg any more."
Why would you say that?
The killer has 1/4th of the natural regression of one survivor and there are four survivors. This is a 1:16 ratio.
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@Monlyth said:
If you are a weak or intermediate Killer player and complain about Dead Hard, it's a skill issue and you need to learn to just wait it out, so Dead Hard is fine.
If you are a good Killer player and complain about Dead Hard, you just got outplayed and you're probably not as good as you think you are anyway, so Dead Hard is still fine.
If you are a top-tier Killer player who easily and consistently beats top-MMR survivors, regularly going on win streaks of 50 or more and you complain about Dead Hard, then that proves Dead Hard isn't too strong because you can overcome it anyway. So Dead Hard is still fine.
If you are a tournament-winning Killer who still swings into DH, then the fact that you won the tournament (Where Survivors can only bring one DH, by the way) proves that DH isn't too strong because Killers can still win against it. So Dead Hard is still fine.
What's that? The fact that tournament-level Killers swing into it clearly means you can't just wait it out? Sorry, didn't catch that.
What do you mean, I'm moving the goalposts? It's just a coincidence that every possible line of logic and every possible piece of evidence always leads to what I originally wanted to believe in the first place.
/s
Nerfing Eruption but not DH feels dishonest. You can't play around DH if the survivor has the perfect setup.
Your head is full of survivor rhetoric and only see the game from one point of view.
When used by good players DH gives more time in chase than any other perk. In a "best case" scenario SB is only going to get you like 8 seconds because nobody is going to fall for you walking and swing into it. On the other hand DH can change a 30 second chse into a 60 second chase if there are enough pallets around. That's not fair to the killer.
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@bunnyfengenthusiast said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3363741#Comment_3363741
rewards kicking gens
This is precisely what we need less of
pop
Pop has been making a huge comeback lately. It's not old Pop, but it's a very underrated perk nonetheless and can let you shave off crazy gen time with PR.
Pop sucks. It's not worth the slot.
If lots of people started using Deja Vu - that wouldn't make it a good perk.
It takes like 2 seconds to kick a genertor and you reduce that generator by 4-7 seconds? That's trash.
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3363678#Comment_3363678
SB had a 20 second cooldown between the days of the 16th and the 29th of June 2016, as it was nerfed in patch 1.0.2. If people were quitting during early dbd, it sure as hell wasn't because SB was nerfed.
And nowhere in that comment do you disprove what my comment was about- that I provided objective numbers as to how much distance exactly one would gain from using both perks, and then said that there was no realistic way to measure any of the other variables so I made sure to state there was much more to the story than just these numbers. Which you tried to criticise me on, and in order to do so you completely ignored an entire clause of a sentence adding major context, before now... Agreeing with the conclusion I came to initially.
Make it make sense
-"Which you tried to criticise me on"
I'm not being critical of you. I am sorry if you think that is the case.
"I provided objective numbers ... and then said that there was no realistic way to measure any of the other variables."
What I was merely pointing out is that DH allows you to use the distance in a way that allows for maximum distance because you can play around any variables in a map in the middle of the chase. In other words you can loop get hit, use DH and then loop some more.
SB prevents a hit and then you can loop but you can't reset. The difference is massive when you actually consider the variables and not just the speed advantage.
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@Anti051 said:
Now that I think about it,
If killers basically can't do anything at a god loop, and survivors basically can't do anything at a short loop, isn't that like taking turns winning? Is that even technically a game?
Loops that are fair have:
- No god pallet
- a long side and a short side.
This allows for a mind game to work.
This allows for you to get the survivor without breaking the pallet.
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@Mandy said:
Incapacitated status is pretty unfun and definitely not healthy on a perk that really badly affected solo survivors.
It makes sense on killers powers such as Victor or Pinheads chains but on a perk? I believe that it definitely doesn't make sense, as the perk shouldn't limit survivors not to do anything at all, they cannot progress the game in anyway. With a killer power they are already interacting with the killer so are progressing the game in some capacity.
"Incapacitated status is pretty unfun and definitely not healthy on a perk that really badly affected solo survivors."
So why not make an erupted generator just make the generator unable to be touched for 30 seconds? This rewards the killer for getting a down and rewards kicking generators.
Instead you ruined the perk. Remember Pop? Nobody uses it because you ruined it.
Against efficient survivors you need to end chases quickly and have some way to regress generators. You took away one of the best killer perks that encourages multiple chases.
With eruption gone the goal of every killer should now be : hard tunnel the first person hooked.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3363356#Comment_3363356
Even Nurse will have a hard time with 4 early SBs. Early SBs in the right direction make it extremely difficult to control the macro game as killer. It becomes really inefficient. It involves baiting out the SB and trying to catch them cheating back towards the gens on a re-patrol while their exhaustion is on cooldown. Just all around annoying.
That's not how Nurse works. When you play Nurse every chase is "fine". The only exception maybe is Lerrys where the interior corridors can be confusing.
SB against nurse makes her use +1 set of blinks for distance. And then they have nothing except clever movement left as an option.
If we took some of the world's 20 best players and mashed them together to play games I suspect the breakdown be such that DH would outperform SB against nurse.
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@solarjin1 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3363364#Comment_3363364
"tunneling generators" i think u been watching one to many truetalent videos kid.
"What does a killer get for hooking three different players"......the same thing u get from hooking 1 player! pressure.....
comparing tunneling a gen to tunneling out survivor is pretty silly.
-""tunneling generators" i think u been watching one to many truetalent videos."
I've been saying it long before he ever did.
Both sides tunnel their objective when you consider efficient play. That needs to change for both sides if we are going to change the game. Tunneling for all or for no one.
"What does a killer get for hooking three different players"......the same thing u get from hooking 1 player! pressure....."
No sorry - you're wrong. One player dead means generators can now at most never be worked at 100% speed. Also the game dynamic is immediately changed because if one player is on the hook and another is being chased you have to stop what you are doing to attend to the hook. That is pressure.
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3363356#Comment_3363356
This is why I said, right before what you quoted, "In simply numbers, then". Meaning there is more to the story, more nuance to the situation, far more variables than can be calculated in a simple mathematical formula. Depending on the situation, Sprint Burst can be substantially stronger, or one Dead Hard can be the single deciding factor between winning and losing a game. There's too many things that can happen in a game to quantify into one equation, which is why I didn't try to, and why I specified that I didn't try to do just that, because I'd be there for forever and a day and still wouldn't come up with an accurate number for an objective winner.
Because there isn't an objective winner.
Both SB and DH are very strong perks, and while I'd say DH is better due to its versatility I cannot completely ignore the low skill floor and easy accessibility of SB.
I'd rather face 4x DH than 4x SB, because chances are with 4x DH users at least 1 will mess it up, and I'll be able to capitalise on that mistake. With 4x SB users, because it's so easy to use and can make any desdzone completely irrelevant (SB turns Saloon from a killer sided map to literally nothing but the main building, which is heavily survivor favoured, for example).
More happens in each situation than can be put into variables and formulas. But OP asked which perk gives more distance, so I specified limitations and gave some objectively correct numbers.
Once upon a time SB had a 20 second cooldown and you could get the perk back while running (and yes there were people who quit when the 20 second timer was changed- exhaustion didn't come till much later).
You would be just about to lunge at someone and bam off they go. As a matter of fact I can tell you that it usually took about 16-17 seconds to catch up to the player who had SB. This left a very small margin of time to catch up to someone using the perk. Something to note about this time : the tip of your lunge attack actually had longer reach than what we have now. That is not to say things were easier as I can assure you that the terrain in 2016 was monstrous to chase someone around unless you were Billy.
Mechanically Sprint Burst usually only gets you 5-7 seconds of distance on average unless you are on a slow killer and the survivor does something to make more distance : like vault a drop at Mid staircase.
Last night I played against someone using DH at the upper end of the player skill spectrum. He looped for a while before he needed a pallet. Then he got hit. Then he used DH and threw two more pallets. This wasted over a minute. No other exhaustion perk in the game can compare to that.
Let's say you had a 2016 level of sprint burst and you got ~16 seconds (you cant anymore b/c every vault is no longer a fast vault). You would mechanically be behind to the tune of 44 seconds as a result of one DH.
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@Chiky said:
tbh, I want this:
"After a survivor is hooked, one of their perks at random is deactivated for the rest of the game."
That way survivors wouldnt want to get hooked, and killers would want to hook as many as possible instead of just one...
That's actually a brilliant idea I have never heard before.
Unfortunately it will never happen because it would make survivors unhappy. That's the rule that must never be broken. Things that make survivors unhappy get nerfed or removed from the game.
@roundpitt said:
Hooking each individual survivor before moving on to securing a kill doesn’t make sense given the current state of the game.
The moment one survivor is gone, the amount of gen pressure is significantly decreased. So it really does feel like tunneling is the optimal play.
This isn’t really fun as the killer, nor is it fun on the receiving end.
The core problem is gen pressure, it’s why the current meta is gen kicking perks.
Suggestion:
After a survivor is hooked, they receive a stacking debuff of -20% gen repair speed. On their second hook, this debuff stacks to -40%.
with this, it wouldn’t make sense to tunnel out survivors, because while you are chasing an already hooked survivor, you have three other survivors with 100% gen repair speed doing gens.
This would not be a perk, it would simply be a base game mechanic.
Edit: I think a few of you fail to understand that survivors who have been hooked three times receive a 100% gen repair speed debuff, 100% healing debuff, etc.
You have the right idea but have the wrong numbers .
The bottom line is that hooking a survivor 3 times needs to be "less good" than hooking three different people once. That means that you need to get something like a stacking 9% debuff for the entire survivor team for hooking each player once (since an 8% debuff would be less than a 25% reduction in generator potential with one player dead). That means if you hook everyone once then all generators/healing/totems/chests/doors/etc., take 36% longer.
That means a 90 second generator will take 122.4 seconds.
In order to deter tunneling you remove this bonus as an option once one person is removed from the game. As an example imagine you hook players 1-3 once and then player 3 kills themself on the hook. Now hooking player #4 would not give you a bonus but the stacking penalty would remain.
Possibly the bonus would be removed if one player is hooked several times in a row (aka tunneling).
@qwertyuiopz666 said:
Yet another killer defending the most pathetic cheap play style in this game and your idea is litt the worst I’ve ever heard lol stop trying to make the game as easy as possible for your self and actually get better no offence
-"Yet another killer defending the most pathetic cheap play style in this game"
Tell me the last time when you played survivor that you got all generators to 33% progress before ever getting one to 66% progress? The answer is never as that would waste a ton of time.
Survivors tunnel generators but don't want to be tunneled in return.
Before we can address killers tunneling survivors we would need to add some kind of base mechanic where kicking a generator prevents any type of interaction with that generator for at least 15 seconds.
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@Desteriaa said:
As a someone who has been playing survivor a little more than killer something has to be done about these cheap tactics that killers love to defend. If you have to tunnel you’re bad and need to get better. If you hold a three gen from the start you are bad, if you camp at 5 gens ur bad. Tunneling and camping are stale strategies and killers do it for easy wins but god forbid a swf gen rushes for "easy wins" Killers are hypocritical and i’m over it. The tunneling and camping is genuinely draining the fun out of games for survivors. I haven’t even mentioned the slugging for the 4k all of this is not fun. Before anyone says "bring anti tunneling perks" The anti tunneling perks we have are trash. Ds is a joke. Otr is useless especially if you’re being tunneled bc of basekit bt once they hit you otr is gone.
You're one of those people that say:
Survivors tunneling generators is fine but it's not ok for killers to tunnel survivors.
What does a killer get for hooking three different players?
What does a killer get for hooking one player three times.
What does a survivor get for getting all 7 generators to 33% progress?
What does a survivor get for getting one generator to 100% progress.
If you want to address tunneling then you need to address BOTH sides.
@Tsulan said:
I know, i´m probably beating a dead horse, but camping and tunneling won´t go away as long as you try to treat them for one side only.
When you encounter a regressing gen at 90% and the killer is nearby. Do you leave for a fresh one or do you wait until the killer leaves to finish it off?
It's nice to know that some people understand how this game actually works.
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@Phasmamain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3363356#Comment_3363356
Making characters like Artist and Knight 120% is not a good idea since they already deny looping completely. It would only encourage holding W even more
I should have mentioned : no movement speed for killers with a projectile attack (huntress/artist/trickster/plague).
This would help a ton of the low tier bad killers like Doctor, Trapper, Pig, etc.
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
Sprint Burst gives you 3 seconds of moving at 6m/s. A killer that isn't the Nurse moves at either 4.4m/s or 4.6m/s, meaning that a survivor will gain 1.6m or 1.4m of distance every second, meaning they gain 4.8m or 4.2m of distance over the course of the 3 seconds respectively.
Dead Hard gives the survivor a speed boost of 6m/s over 1.8s (successful attack), however during the attack cooldown killers slow down to 0.575m/s over 2.7 seconds.
Therefore, during the initial 1.8s of 6m/s, a survivor gains 5.425m of distance each second, meaning they gain 9.765m of distance. For the remaining 0.9s they gain 3.425m of distance, leading to 3.0825m of distance, for a grand total of 12.8475m.
In simply numbers, then, Dead Hard is the clear winner.
The difference comes from Sprint Burst being able to be used much easier (you press and hold a button, as opposed to timing the perk), and being able to be activated wherever. The killer doesn't have to be right behind you, so you can use it to excentuate an already large lead, allowing you to reach a safe structure from a deadzone just like DH can except without the hassle of being injured or timing.
-"Dead Hard is the clear winner."
But your numbers do not reflect the actual distance you can get.
With SB you run in the killers face and he knows you have no tricks left. They get in lunge range and swing immediately.
With DH you get to loop and then you get distance so you can loop some more. In the right terrain DH can turn a 20 second chase into a 40 or 60 second chase. You will never do that with SB.
@Phasmamain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3363302#Comment_3363302
When people use sprint burst early that’s when it becomes an issue as continuing to chase them will cost a ton of time. If they are holding it they are using it wrong as you said just like many use dead hard wrong
Nothing is worse than 4 good SB users if you are playing a weaker killer
-"Nothing is worse than 4 good SB users if you are playing a weaker killer"
When you say weaker I assume you mean : moves slowly and/or m1 killer.
We should just make all the killers either have teleports, a movement speed power or be 120% speed.
Edit: no movement speed boosts for killers with projectile attacks.
Take every killer that has no movement power or teleport power and give them a 5% speed boost. Now they suck a lot less. "But that would break looping". The killers literally have no option at most safe loops so giving them more speed would make them fair again.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3363172#Comment_3363172
"And while this is true you're wasting a perk slot to get information that I already know about every map in DBD because I have thousands of hours."
Your entire post was implying I'm a new player with no skill and that you are so much better.
Like bruh, at least own it.
That is the conclusion you derived from my post.
I simply said : you are using a perk to get information that I already have due to my game experience.
In other words that perk is a wasted slot for me. If it's not for you and you need it- fine.
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@Pulsar said:
There is no way all the gens were done in 2:58.
Even if you did NOTHING, it would be almost impossible to do that.
If you go back a few months Coconuts RTS had a game on stream where the survivors did all the gens in like 2:48. They had all the things to rush gens other than fast track.
@Unam said:
Two Games, side by side.
First Game: Twins, I had exactly 2 chases. All Gens were done in 2:58... Two BNPs and Two Prove Thyself...
Second Game: Wesker, no Gen Perks, no Toolboxes, nothing. Had 2 or 3 Chases. All 5 Gens done in 5:40.
But yeah, please lets nerf Eruption. Thats the real problem here...
Gens have always been faster than chase time. Chases do not have a set minimum length but generators do.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3363039#Comment_3363039
Why are you so conceited and why do you constantly talk down to people?
This reads like a bad copypasta
I'm not talking down to you. It's a fact that DV is not a good perk for an "end tier" player. It's fine for when you are learning the game.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3362696#Comment_3362696
Deja Vu has been a staple in my games for one reason alone.
It helps counter the Eruption 3-gen meta. When Eruption goes away, I'll probably take it off, but it provided a ton of value.
"Deja Vu... helps counter the Eruption 3-gen meta."
And while this is true you're wasting a perk slot to get information that I already know about every map in DBD because I have thousands of hours.
If we were to pick a map like Swamp or Abbatoir that hasn't changed in a while I could open up paint and show you where all the generator spawn points are located.
I hope that you eventually grow as a player and obtain the information that I currently have about generator spawns. You could spend several hundred games as survivor to get this information by wasting a perk slot -or you could just play a lot of killer.
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@BlueHorkew said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3362444#Comment_3362444
Ok, no you are just insane if you actually think some of your suggestions are ok.
You are just short sighted and can't see how disastrous the consequences are for half of your requests.
The game is in a really healthy state for survivors and killers right now. It's not perfect, there are still a lot of things that could be improved for both sides.
But somehow you seem think that killer is dying or something. Bhvr has continuously been helping killers since the game came out and they will continue to do so
-"Ok, no you are just insane if you actually think some of your suggestions are ok."
That's rude.
-"The game is in a really healthy state for survivors"
This statement is true but the problem is that the rest the sentence which I truncated is false. DBD is not fun to play as killer right now except at low ranks and mid ranks. At high level play you need to play Blight/Nurse or an A tier killer with best in slot addons.
That sucks.
-"But somehow you seem think that killer is dying or something. Bhvr has continuously been helping killers since the game came out"
Killer has been the unpopular role for roughly 6 years. There was a killer strike for DBD in the first year; queue times at one point were ~15 minutes for a game. That same wait for a game of VHS killed that game before it came out of Beta.
Killer buffs are almost always two steps back and one step forward. A perfect example is the changes overall to survivor and killer in the 6.0 perk rework.
Survivors forever and always get Borrowed time off the hook. This was increased from 5 seconds to 10 seconds. Mind you that before this rework BT was a meta perk. What perk did killer get base kit? Nothing. There was no base generator slowdown perk like Corrupt or Deadlock. Now nobody ever brings BT. In short survivors have 5 perks every game.
Otz, a player with 9k hours, has stated that the last perk shake up has caused him more stress than any other point in time as a killer main. He made a video some time back saying he would "no longer be playing nice". When this is how a 9k hour player feels - what is a 90 hour player killer main supposed to feel? The answer is likely : switch to survivor or switch to a different game.
Killer is not in a healthy state when the bonus for playing killer is almost exclusively sitting on 100% bonus for playing killer.
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@HoodedWildKard said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3362444#Comment_3362444
Hardly, at a pallet it's not going to be a sure thing, the timing required to pull off a play like that is insanely tight. So many players on this forum seem to have a top down mentality. Just because the absolute best players in the game make effective use of it means a perk is broken?
You're basing an opinion on the top 1% of players and that isn't a healthy way to base game balance. If I can bait out DH, from players who have over 100 days solid playtime, on the regular. When I have only been playing since august last year then it can't be "broken"
It's a good perk to be sure. The absolute top players make damn good use of it. But it is by no means unbeatable. It is counterable. It requires skill and fine timing to use. If new survs were out playing experienced killers on the regular because of it then yes it would be broken. But they don't, and it isn't.
-"If I can bait out DH, from players who have over 100 days solid playtime, on the regular. When I have only been playing since august last year then it can't be "broken""
There is a logic error in saying : if I can play around it then it's fine.
The problem with DH is that it gives you more time in a chase than any of the other exhaustion perks.
-"If new survs were out playing experienced killers on the regular because of it then yes it would be broken. But they don't, and it isn't."
New players fail in a horrible way when they use the new version of the perk. The most grizzled veterans can get +40 seconds of extra time in a chase. That's not right when you compare it to Sprint Burst or Lithe.
Imagine for example if DH were changed so that it didn't give you a "sprint burst" if you already had a sprint burst from another source in the last two minutes (this is extreme but just humor it for a moment). That would change the perk so that it would be strong only if you were hurt before getting chased. It would prevent the "third health state". DH without the sprint burst unless you started the chase hurt would be a lot closer in line to Sprint/Lithe.
Overall your argument boils down to : I can play against DH just fine at mid ranks. Yes that's true. And you can also play Clown without pinky finger and play trapper without Bloody Coil and still have fun. Try that at "red ranks".