DBDVulture
DBDVulture
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3439251#Comment_3439251
What do you get if you don't tunnel? One hook on multiple people gives you nothing. Adding a base kit mechanic to change that would influence killers to do something else.
The problem is that that base kit mechanic would need to be MORE oppressive than tunnelling in order to wean killers off of it. You yourself already suggested a whopping, agonising THIRTY-SIX percent repair speed slow, and it still would not even be enough! Both mathematically (In which I made a mistake, so the actual numbers make the comparison even worse), and by your own admission!
You're correct that tunnelling is the strategy right now. But we're not fixing that with 'more carrots'. You would keep tunnelling. You'd keep tunnelling with an average kill rate of 70%. You'd keep tunnelling with an average kill rate of 80%.
Tunnelling needs the stick, not the carrot.
But with the same thought in mind Survivors literally have nothing to do but tunnel generators. It would almost make sense if we just went ahead and gave killers NOED base kit. That would force survivors to break all the totems so they couldn't just gen rush in 3-4 minutes and then be safe b/c they brought adrenaline.
You're the only person who believes in 'gen tunnelling', and your definition of genrushing includes 'using a perk' and 'doing a gen'. Your perspective is a bit off.
-"You're the only person who believes in 'gen tunnelling', and your definition of genrushing includes 'using a perk' and 'doing a gen'. Your perspective is a bit off."
That's just not true; what you have said just now is not at all what I suggested previously. Gen rushing is a posture stance that you can easily recognize when you see it. You kick a generator and before you even have a chance to leave someone else has touched the generator again. It's an attitude where survivors are on the generators literally non stop.
Tunneling is a problem when both sides do it. Survivors tunnel gens so killers tunnel out survivors. We go back to the old problem that survivors don't really have a main objective other than the generators. It's a shame that in ~7 years of development we couldn't find one.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3438973#Comment_3438973
You'd stop tunnelling until you lose a match again, and then you'd be right back here demanding more killer buffs and survivor nerfs and promising that you'll 'totally stop tunnelling, guys, trust!'.
Tunneling is the strategy right now.
What do you get if you don't tunnel? One hook on multiple people gives you nothing. Adding a base kit mechanic to change that would influence killers to do something else.
But with the same thought in mind Survivors literally have nothing to do but tunnel generators. It would almost make sense if we just went ahead and gave killers NOED base kit. That would force survivors to break all the totems so they couldn't just gen rush in 3-4 minutes and then be safe b/c they brought adrenaline.
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3438197#Comment_3438197
I'd agree that he doesn't need a CD buff for better players, and it may overtune him for the best Ghostie players. It does make Ghostie a lot more playable for newbies though, which is the majority of Ghosties people will run across. Plus, even if he had a 10s CD, he still can't reach the same levels that any Killer with an actual chase power can reach.
Overbuffed compared to Myers - I'd say no. The issue is Ghostie only exposes 1 person from stalking them, with individual stalk bars. Myers can farm stalk without exposing someone, get the down, and then insta-pop it on someone he never has even seen before. Ghostie at least needs to have 99'd you on an individual level. Also the expose duration was bumped up to 60s from 45s, not 30s.
Reveal warning - This is still important for counterplay. It allows Ghostie to not have his power hard countered by someone just starting to look at him. A good Ghostie will stick near cover so they can dip behind it to prevent the reveal. Also it is super latency based, so kinda like Doctor, not only do you have to learn the power, but also how laggy the Survivor is and will affect it. That requires more skill than most killer powers to pull off successfully, so I don't see why a higher skill expression factor should be removed. He still is stuck along the framework of an M1 killer, so minor intel when you are in the process of being revealed is a decent non-chase aspect to be given. If he could Legion/Myers vault faster in Night Shroud, or throw his knife, then maybe he would need to be tuned down in other areas, but for now you want someone with near nothing to have less.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3438982#Comment_3438982
Also this is a big nothing burger. It drops a 5s stalk to 4s, and a 2.5s lean stalk to a 2s lean stalk. Saving ~2s every minute or so is exactly the realm of a brown addon. Also in what universe should Ghostie be nerfed before the likes of Nurse/Blight/Spirit/Wesker/Artist/Twins? They all have insane lethality that can bypass most loop designs, but Ghostie still has to play the loop. The only player getting free-downed to a Ghostie is an unaware Survivor, which shouldn't they go down if they were that unaware?
Edit: Myers does need love too, but a very simple 24s->20s CD and .2m/s boost to crouch speed is simple enough for Ghostie. Myers needs much more in-depth help. I'd go as far as removing T1, except with Scratched Mirror, which would nerf vault speeds and movement speed to match its current values, maybe even 4.3 instead of 4.2.
-"Overbuffed compared to Myers - I'd say no. The issue is Ghostie only exposes 1 person from stalking them, with individual stalk bars."
GF can stalk multiple people at once unlike Michael who was able to multistalk on release but got nerfed.
-"Edit: Myers does need love too, but a very simple 24s->20s CD and .2m/s boost to crouch speed is simple enough for Ghostie. Myers needs much more in-depth help."
The devs have said they have no plans to change MM and with that in mind it makes no sense that they would massively overbuff GF. They are franchise killers.
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@thrawn3054 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3438197#Comment_3438197
Because Myers can down everyone with a single tier 3 pop. Of course he still needs a rework/a buff to his stalking.
Ghostface needs to be toned down if anything. He shouldn't have an addon that makes stalking 20% faster.
That's not what a brown addon should look like.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3438960#Comment_3438960
It's only -25% if the killer is AFK, otherwise you will never have four survivors on gens at the same time, the max will be 3. Which gets reduced to 2 if you tunnel one out and then target the next, so that's -33%.
So yeah, 36% in four hooks, or 33% in three, with an easier time pressuring once you hit those three. Even though you are suggesting a crippling 36% slow, it still doesn't compete with tunnelling. This is why the 'carrot' doesn't work. Tunnelling is way too powerful, so that 'carrot' would need to basically fundamentally break the game in order to overshadow it enough to wean people off of tunnelling.
Do you even play killer? I would stop tunneling with such a massive slow down - at least for the first hook. If they weakened some of the tiles to make chases a little more difficult to loop without using resources then it would have a huge impact on the game.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3438185#Comment_3438185
Okay, but we're generally trying to keep the game balanced, not just hand out free wins to killers all over the place. With that in mind, carrots don't work.
But yeah, if you throw balance out the window, you could probably design something that makes not tunnelling more effective than tunnelling.
Imagine for example you give survivors a 9% permanent penalty to all actions each time someone is hooked for the first time if no one is dead. Hook everyone once and there's a nice 36% penalty to all actions for the rest of the game.
So 36% in four hooks, or 33% and way higher pressure in three hooks.
Swing and a miss.
-"So 36% in four hooks, or 33% and way higher pressure in three hooks. Swing and a miss."
The alternative is I hook one person three times in a row every game because 3x hooks is -25% so it has to be better than 8% per hook.
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@oreoslurpee said:
for the love of god, what the title says, JUST STOP
i dont want to see him in any of my matches i get jumpscared by him way too much in 1 match its horrifying
Ghostface doesn't need a power cooldown buff.
He was overbuffed with his last change when you consider Michael. Why does Michael's power last a minute if GF's power does the same? What?
If anything GF probably needs to have like a 40 second expose as the 30 might have been too short but 60 is too long.
Also why does GF have those stupid white line marks when someone looks at him? Remove them.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
We have carrots galore in the past year. 6.1 gave 10 seconds to gens, mini pop on kick, tier 1 brutal strength, 2 permanent stacks of stbfl, entirely free as base kit buffs.
Dead Hard got nerfed twice, DS got deleted, circle of healing is all but gone too.
Killers used every single one of those buffs to camp, tunnel, and hold 3 gens for nearly a year.
Carrots don't work without directly making camping and tunneling less efficient in some way, plain and simple.
-"Carrots don't work without directly making camping and tunneling less efficient in some way, plain and simple."
Wake up - reality is calling. If you put in a base mechanic that is better than tunneling then I'll do that. It needs to be a stronger bonus than hooking one player three times.
Imagine for example you give survivors a 9% permanent penalty to all actions each time someone is hooked for the first time if no one is dead. Hook everyone once and there's a nice 36% penalty to all actions for the rest of the game.
Anything less than that and I'm gonna tunnel at 5 gens because it works.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3437836#Comment_3437836
Here’s the issue. The chase for killers needs to be quick in order to win. So you cannot really enjoy the chase. Because enjoying the chase is counterintuitive.
Survivors want long chases because it’s fun and because it means they will win the game. Killers can have long chases but they will not win the game if they do. This is a fundamental dilemma in the game. Long chases are too punishing for killers to be able to enjoy them.
- "The chase for killers needs to be quick in order to win. So you cannot really enjoy the chase. Because enjoying the chase is counterintuitive."
Long chases would be fine if generators took like 2 minutes base.
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@Nebula said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3437694#Comment_3437694
I’m not talking about survivors vs killers. I’m talking about balancing the game around the average player and not someone with 5k+ hours.
You can't have the game be stupidly broken when we look at what the very best players can do. You must take the best players in mind and the worst players in mind to make sure neither side if having things too easy or too hard.
This game currently really doesn't care if the "good" players abuse mechanics but that's just as bad as noobs getting stomped.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3436294#Comment_3436294
If the intent is to have the Killer patrol the entire map and be "roaming", as you write and I suggested in the original post, most Killers need a massive overhaul, as this simply is not possible beyond the lowest levels of play.
I would argue both Hag & Trapper have to choose gens, and stay within range of those gens, to be effective at all.
If you spend time setting traps around a gen, and they go off while you are clear across the map, those traps are worthless (as well as the time spent setting them). Further, Hag has a very finite limit on the number of traps she can place, slow movement, and must be inside a very limited range to teleport, so she has no choice but to focus. I would agree her entire design is "outdated" in exactly the same way Insidious is.
I have never seen another poster mention indecision as an issue for Killers, so I'm not sure where we are going with it. Killers, to my knowledge, either patrol the hook or nearby gens. I don't disagree standing still with no plan is a poor decision.
We will have to strongly disagree regarding the significance of injury as "pressure". I would refence the many threads since the last patch noting Survivors don't even bother to heal and simply focus on repairing gens due to the short time required.
Lastly, the complaints regarding the Killer "holding the game hostage" by patrolling gens is dishonest (not from you, but the general claim). The game lasts that long because the Survivors are unwilling to take chances on those 3 generators just as much as it is the Killer patrolling gens. Why is the Killer solely responsible for ensuring the Survivors have a chance to complete their objective? Shouldn't the same logic apply to ensuring the Killer reaches theirs?
When you say Insidious is outdated, I think we are agreeing/reinforcing the idea the game was designed to played one way, but the Devs have attempted to alter it in a fundamental way. I also believe there is a mistaken tendency to view the Killer as a NPC (which it IS in most every other game) that should ensure the Survivors are having fun.
The chase-focused style of play is problematic to the original design, and I don't believe BHVR has addressed the issue of Killer play with that transformation. IOW, it seems the developers have failed to consider the impact on Killer play enjoyment and has concentrated on entertaining the Survivors.
-"If the intent is to have the Killer patrol the entire map and be "roaming", as you write and I suggested in the original post, most Killers need a massive overhaul, as this simply is not possible beyond the lowest levels of play."
This is the sad truth. If you want a killer like Trapper to be viable on large maps then they need to be something stupid like 150% move speed out of chase.
@Nebula said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3436458#Comment_3436458
And the minority needs the majority more or else the game would die? Balancing around the top percentage of your players is a sure fire way to kill a game that’s not competitively viable and DbD for sure falls under that category.
-"Balancing around the top percentage of your players is a sure fire way to kill a game"
Dont forget that killers actually need to be having fun to continue playing. Most of the changes over the game's lifespan focus on the idea of survivors having fun with little thought for the killer. Things are fine if you play one of the top 5 killers but everything else kinda sucks.
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@Orthane said:
I either get completely stomped and barely have 2-3 hooks by the time they get 5 gens done, or I completely stomp them and they only finish 2. There is almost never an inbetween. Having an actual good game is super rare. I've had a few where I didn't have to tunnel and still got 2-3 kills and those feel good. But having to hard facecamp and/or Tunnel because I have 2 hooks and they're on last gen, and they spread them out so I can't 3 gen is so unfun. I hate tunneling but I HAVE to do it in most games or I won't even get 1 kill. Gens pop so extremely fast that every regression perk is completely unviable and useless. 125% of normal Regression whoopy doo that means it'll take survivors 22 seconds instead of 20 seconds to repair 1 whole minute of regression! The only useful one is Jolt, and that's just because on pretty much every M1 killer there's no better options.
Idk what it is about the games I've been having lately but it truly feels like tunneling is a requirement if I want to get even just 2 kills most of the time. With how fast gens fly by when 2 people have boxes, Prove Thyself, and maybe a few other tools for gen speed, and God forbid one of them has a BNP. Which means you are forced to take someone out of the game as quickly as possible or before you know it all gens will be done. And if you injured everyone too bad, because Adrenaline is picked by over 25% of all Survivors, and if that pops not only can you not catch them, but they've also healed instantly. Incredible.
I've started playing Survivor with a No Mither build and even when I'm basically exposed all the time I have so much more fun than as Killer. When I'm playing Killer it's a constant battle with frustration while I desperately try to get 1-2 kills and getting annoyed when 2 gens pop in a minute when I'm on first chase. But with Survivor, I can genuinely just have fun. Maybe I'm just bad at Killer, but playing Killer is just so demoralizing in so many games.
-"I either get completely stomped and barely have 2-3 hooks by the time they get 5 gens done, or I completely stomp them and they only finish 2. There is almost never an inbetween."
That's the basic idea however as you win more as killer you start seeing more of the survivor favored side than the other.
-"I hate tunneling but I HAVE to do it in most games or I won't even get 1 kill. Gens pop so extremely fast that every regression perk is completely unviable and useless."
The professional players who stream DBD for a living tunnel to win tough matches so you should too.
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@Frogsplosion said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3436971#Comment_3436971
pretty clear survivors desperately need a second critical victory objective besides just slamming gens.
Even something as boring as : NOED is base kit would go a long way to change the game.
Rushed the gens and didn't break the totems? Oops!
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@Raptorrotas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3436910#Comment_3436910
1 new base mechanic that was a perk before, not even weakened > some small number tweaks.
And the perks of 6.1 are gutted by now.
I think killers are maybe rightfully annoyed that only survivors get the benefit of new mechanics. Even the 2.5% (1.8 charges) bonus to kicks doesnt feel special because survivor or killer interactions werent changed by this. Survivors might as well forget it exists.
-"And the perks of 6.1 are gutted by now."
Pop is not buffed until it does more than it did before and that's likely never going to happen. I would settle for the killer kicking a generator taking of 7% of the total progress.
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@The_Krapper said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3435656#Comment_3435656
Nobody in this game is perfect and this game isn't a skilled game at this point in time , maybe it's because I have darn near 13,000 hours that the game doesn't feel hard I've been here since the beginning, but these hit squads you're talking about are like 4 percent of the playerbase they really aren't that common because most of the time there's always at least 2 survivors who aren't the best in chase even if they have thousands of hours, the level I have to try to depends on what killer I'm using at the time like if I'm playing nurse they might as well just DC I've quit picking her up because it immediately turns me off the game when I beat a squad at 5 gens, one thing I'll recommend for a lot of the killers struggling is to find a tournament group that likes to practice and take turns playing killer, you'll figure out exactly what you're doing wrong as a killer, I tried facing team oracle with Demogorgon one time and it didn't go very well for me but it taught me what I was doing wrong and what I needed to improve on and in fact there are a few tourney squads that ask me to scrim because they know I play a variety of killers and I'm a decent survivor, I'm nowhere near the best but knowledge is power in this game because there arent a lot of skilled plays to make it's what you know and how you use it
-"but these hit squads you're talking about are like 4 percent of the playerbase they really aren't that common"
And if you win often enough you'll have them every game for the next 4-5 games; yet they are supposed to be nearly nonexistent.
Fundamentally speaking there should not be as possible a potential gap as there currently exists between best M1 killer plays and best survivor plays.
If the devs made survivors have the same collision model as the killer then the best player in the world would be able to loop better than an "average joe" by about 10-15 seconds. Maybe that's the solution : when playing an M1 killer all the survivors "get fat" and have the same collision box as the killer.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3436469#Comment_3436469
Tackling those points in order:
1: I don't need to. That has nothing to do with the point, which is that if you want to only run one regression perk, there are options available to you now that are better than CoB from before its nerf, assuming you aren't going for a 3-gen strategy. I also don't have to because there aren't any survivor perks that need that kind of nerf in the way that CoB did.
(Also I don't play that much survivor? I barely have a defined build as is, I'm a killer player first and foremost.)
2: Well, simple fix there. Don't tunnel. It isn't necessary and more perks will help you if you don't.
3: What does Otz and Hens have to do with this, exactly? Comp level players like them are outliers, that's true of every live balance multiplayer game. Genuinely, what exactly is the point there? What part of those videos or those games is meant to translate to the average game from the majority of players?
For your bottom line there... if you rely too much on trying to remove one player from the game ASAP, to the point where you're actively denying the use of strong perks that would help you play otherwise, you're gonna find that you lose when those less fair and more cheesy tactics are addressed by the devs. The right call on your end is to adapt.
The only sticking points, and I will acknowledge them, is the strength of toolboxes and the unbalanced nature of some maps. However, BHVR cannot do everything at once, and since you do not need to camp or tunnel or commit so hard to a 3-gen that your game lasts 40 minutes, there's nothing wrong with them starting there and working outwards.
-"if you want to only run one regression perk, there are o"ptions available to you now that are better than CoB from before its nerf, assuming you aren't going for a 3-gen strategy"
And that's the problem because most of the maps in DBD are so large or safe that you either 3 gen or you "Y gen" as my friend calls it. The viable strategy for old M1 killers is to 3 gen but that strategy is getting phased out because Knight and SM make that unfun. Instead of reworking the base game mechanic why don't we rework the two killers that almost everyone hates instead of throwing out a mechanic which has been part of the game for nearly 7 years now.
-"simple fix there. Don't tunnel"
Ah yes great advice. I mean it would make sense if we went back to the time of 2016-18 when survivors didn't tunnel generators and routinely tried to escape three times on their first hook. Even Otz is extremely guilty of saying : if I want to win I need to tunnel out this Meg. Are you saying I'm better than Otz? Thank you.
-"Comp level players like them are outliers"
You have a fundamental misunderstanding of DBD as a whole. Killers catch people when they are much better than the survivors they are chasing unless they are using a very strong killer. Moving from Nurse/Blight down to worse killers you need to play better in order to catch weaker players because the chassis is less functional. If you're playing extremely good players then you need to be better² but you can't do that because you're on Trapper or Doctor.
If you need a translation: the best trapper in the world will probably get stumped by just a "pretty good" 4 man SWF team. Does that seem right? I can look back at DBD four years ago and we were getting three players out in ~85% of our matches. That's not right. What allowed us to do so : SWF+ Broken items+ Broken maps +Broken perks.
What has changed since that time? A few of the maps/items/perks are less busted but they are still way too strong when used at their full potential.
If you look at the best players in the world and walk it down two steps you have survivors who are better than their equals. This goes all the way down until you get to medium ranks where the playing field levels out. Survivors don't really play well and the killer has some minimal advantage as a result. If you go below that then the killer actually has an advantage because people literally don't understand the game most of the time without coaching or 100 hours of play time.
-"if you rely too much on trying to remove one player from the game ASAP...you're gonna find that you lose when those less fair and more cheesy tactics are addressed by the devs"
I've basically retired playing most of the "pathetic" killers unless I want to play a chill game after I've hit max rank for the month. When the rules change in DBD to favor the survivors and you need to adapt the solution according to my friends list over the last 7 years you (in order of likely hood of being chosen as a course of action) :
- Play a stronger killer.
- Quit playing
- Try something else.
When we look at the previous patch I don't see a problem with any single killer besides Knight/SM for the "3 gen problem". If Nurse and Blight are miles ahead of all the other killers then that's a balance problem and we need to adjust all the killers to be on the same footing.
-"since you do not need to camp or tunnel or commit so hard to a 3-gen that your game lasts 40 minutes"
Again I will repeat that people who play this game professional as their job repeatedly say: I need to camp/tunnel/slug this person to win. When the very best players need to do it (when not using the "not so great" killers) it kinds shows you that something is wrong.
Fundamentally speaking there is a huge gap in terms of what the average baddie does when they play DBD vs what the very good players do. Bad players see a pallet and throw a pallet; this mentality actually makes many of the maps in DBD make sense. What becomes a problem is when you have good players (not even talking comp level) who loop a pallet, loop it again, and then a third time they might throw it or they might not. Either way you still don't have a down and you're only half way there. So they run to a new loop and you have to do all that over again. Maybe on the second loop they throw the pallet and stun you.
So you go to the next loop and someone takes a hit for them. Around this time two generators pop and you've gotten zero hooks. Most people have never played against this but some people play against it almost every single game. This isn't some phantom 1% comp team - it's just really good players all in the same lobby who understand how to punish the killer and waste time.
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@NoHookDC said:
The devs literally increased the time to do the main objective of the game.
- And then they nerfed gen regression perks.
- And they just gave Survivors a new genrush perk.
- And they are now forcing Killers to play slower with the anti-tunnel change. Without changing genrush.
It's almost like the +10 seconds per generator was literally nothing with the genrush meta, which the devs clearly and carefully did not change. Because they knew they were giving Killers an empty update Survivors could point at and say 'You got what you wanted!' while not actually changing anything for the catered-too Survivor mains.
-"Because they knew they were giving Killers an empty update Survivors could point at and say 'You got what you wanted!' while not actually changing anything for the catered-too Survivor mains."
Sadly this feels so true. By giving killers small segmented changed it didn't really add up to one nice "thing". Survivors got a free perk; that translates to 4 free perks for their team. And the killer didn't even get base kit save the best for last- they just got 2 free stacks. That's just not a fair trade.
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@toxik_survivor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3435924#Comment_3435924
Don't you think that's a little too exaggerated? Like yeah when you dive deep into it that's what you're gonna get but ur acting like the only thing a survivor does in match is do gens and the only thing a killer does is chase and hook. Time is money In dbd, every second counts and that's obvious, so there are other mechanics like people going out of there way to do archives, using perks, playing a specific style on purpose etc, all this adds time.
I like your perspective, but it's a little over the top on my opinion.
Edit: if every single survivor was a SWF organized sweat squad your point would get across to me much easier, but that's just not the case. In the end it really just evolves around the play style of the survivors you face and sometimes you have to adapt mid game to combat it. Some matches ur gonna get gen rushed no matter how you adapt, and some days you will obliterate the gen rush. There's not much else too it.
-"Don't you think that's a little too exaggerated?"
No I don't. DBD "works" when you goof around and treat it like a party game. When people play efficiently by looping well and repairing gens with focus the killer gets stomped.
I would really like to see some equality for the killer side. Survivors have tunnel protection with free BT. Where's the killer's version : free basekit Deadlock? Don't you think the killer deserves some kind of built in slow down to prevent the loss of two generators or more in the first chase?
With the current meta I have zero tools to control generators so I go after what I can control : hooks. It's far less fun for me and I know the survivors hate it even more to be systematically deleted from the game.
@nars said:
it was fine then because gen kick existed so genrushing died as long as you got there first. But now that regression is dead gen progress stays practically forever, so the faster you gain progress the more permanent progress stays. BNP does 25% in 5 sec, an effective 500% repair speed (roughly). 22.5s completed in 5 seconds. 22.5x4=90s. It takes 90s to completely degrade one 5s BNP. Thats excluding the extra charge, prove, other addons, other perks all that jazz. All of it put together is uninteractive and unfair for the killer, because being able to complete a gen solo in less than 30s isnt fair.
-"All of it put together is uninteractive and unfair for the killer, because being able to complete a gen solo in less than 30s isnt fair."
That's a really good point with the gen regression deletion. You can't even tell when killers have three to four gen regression perks most of the time. I mean you can physically count them but they don't do what they used to do.
How would survivors react if the killer could combine Monstrous Shrine with another perk to make you lose a hook state in 30- 40 seconds? What's fair for the survivor should be fair for the killer right?
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3435864#Comment_3435864
Hold on, what do you mean?
Why has that changed, exactly? If you only want to use one regression perk, you can still do that, you've still got options. Better options than pre-nerf CoB, too, assuming you aren't sticking by three generators and harassing survivors away to let CoB eat away at them. Pain Res, Eruption, hell, even new Pop and Jolt are perfectly serviceable. Let alone if you branch out into other forms of slowdown, where there are even more options, and let alone if you allow yourself full builds of complementary perks with more than one slowdown included.
Even if you lost your entire ability to regress generators (which you absolutely haven't) that doesn't automatically mean you have to start camping. You could just, generate normal slowdown pressure through downs and hooks.
As for survivor perks, I don't know. Other than pre-nerf CoH, I can't think of any survivor perks that need a 75% nerf like CoB did to its regression half. It's kind of a false example when CoB needed a change and other perks don't, wouldn't you agree?
-"If you only want to use one regression perk, you can still do that"
Name a survivor perk you would continue to use it if only gave 25% of its current effect. Go on, I'll wait.
-"Pain Res, Eruption, hell, even new Pop and Jolt are perfectly serviceable"
I don't agree. Jolt is 8% and needs to be combined in aggregate with other regression perks; meanwhile clever survivors jump into a locker to prevent its use.
Pain Res does nothing if you tunnel. This is a tunnel meta for both sides so I'm not going to bother with that. Hooking one player three times was -45% progress on generators and then you gave the team a permanent -25% progress penalty.
To put this into perspective : survivor gen rushing perks have no limitation and work at full speed if the killer has one hook or 9 hooks.
-"that doesn't automatically mean you have to start camping. You could just, generate normal slowdown pressure through downs and hooks."
So when Otz made his video showing that the best survivor options were well countered by the best killer options we didn't see Hens and crew going against any of the killers that Otz puts in the lowest tier on his killer list. Why is that? We all know the answer - those killers would have been absolutely destroyed.
Think for a moment about the slow walking speed of M1 killers. Think about how almost all the maps in DBD play out for those maps vs strong loopers. How does the game go if the killer goes for chases and abandons their 3 gen setup?
Think about a map like Azarov's; there are 3 gens on one side 1 gen in the middle and 3 gens on the other side. What m1 killer without teleport abilities has the potential to contest any generator setup other than the last three generators all being on the same side? The answer is none.
To this you might say : well that's an unbalanced map. You would be correct but the problem is that nearly 80% of the maps in DBD can be polarized in a similar manner where M1 walking speed killers cannot contest the generators.
Meanwhile you can always contest the unhooks. I can play with 0 gen regression perks now and just play to remove one player from the game asap. For years we had a meta where you could defend the gens even with the lowest tier killers on Otz's list. That's simply not true anymore with nerfed regression perks.
The bottom line is that when you play efficient survivors you have to play efficiently as well. That means camping/slugging and tunneling.
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@Kirarozu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3434810#Comment_3434810
If you lose multiple gens in the first chase then it’s your fault for chasing the looper. Leave that survivor and chase the other 3.
That's a lovely piece of rhetoric. What happens when a 9000 hour killer streamer gets into that situation and every player in the game can loop like that?
I will remind everyone that once upon a time people said the same thing during the time of infinite loops. "Just chase someone else" works great until it doesn't.
Map design in dbd fundamentally needs to change. There should never be a time in DBD where the killer thinks : I shouldn't take that chase.
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@Green_Sliche said:
Some killers were designed around 3 genning playstyle. For some melee killers 3 gen can be a saving grace. This is soon to be changed.
While it's understandable that 3 genning can be annoying, it's removal will take another game plan from many killers. I have a feeling nothing shall be introduced in exchange to this 3 gen nerf ( survivors won't need to worry about which gen they should do anymore ) which will in turn only lead to faster overall gen progression as survivors will simply latch themselves to the first gen they see without any potential risk down the road.
To sum it up - another nerf to killers, albeit indirect. As for how devs think killers should play - with a clown hat and nose on. That's how.
The question you need to answer is : would you rather the killer Camp a 3 gen or camp a hook?
Punishing the "3 gen style of play" and nerfing all gen regression into the ground tells me I shouldn't bother with gens. Instead I should just punish unhooks. Hit the unhooker and down the unhooked player to tunnel them out.
If that's the direction you want to go then proceed.
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@toxik_survivor said:
I just don't get it. The devs literally increased the time to do the main objective of the game. I understood the complaining before the change to gen times, but now? Personally I haven't experienced a severe case of gen rush like it used to be, obviously every once in a while it'll happen but sometimes gen rush will happen, it will never not happen. Maybe it's different in different mmr ranges? As someone at a high mmr range it's always a whole bunch of people that just want to mess around and loop and not really gen rush so maybe it's different at mid to low mmr I'm not sure, but I just don't get how we can never be happy 😖. Gen rush is the least of worries right now.
-"The devs literally increased the time to do the main objective of the game. I understood the complaining before the change to gen times, but now?"
You want to hear something crazy? Gens were slower when survivors played against me before 6.1 than they are right now. You might ask how.
Before Pop got obliterated it gave a 20 second reset on generators every time I got a hook. Looking at 95% of my games if not more I got somewhere between 6-9 pops per game. In other words I changed the survivor objective from 4 minutes to 6 minutes. Why does that matter?
Good survivors can finish all the gens in under 4 minutes (the very best can do it in under 3 minutes). This really didn't change with the last year of patches but my ability to slow down generators did. Largely speaking it takes about 6 minutes for the killer to get enough hooks to win. If the game is over in 4 minutes then I have lost; I need another 2 minutes of time to achieve my win condition.
In case you haven't been here for six years the main gripe of killers during the entire lifetime of this game is : generators are completed too quickly.
The expected goal of the killer is 9 hooks. This is the "grading" system the game uses for emblems.
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@jesterkind said:
Map design is pretty bad across the board, so I don't think some maps requiring/forcing 3-gens is a decent defence of it being intended, personally. Hell, that could be part of what they're working on to address the complaints, adjusting the maps in some way.
Also, they released Skull Merchant and Knight to be played the way they're clearly intended, the fact that people use them for obnoxious 3-gen stuff doesn't mean the devs wanted that to happen necessarily. Maybe they were more fine with the possibility then than they are now, but it's not as though either of them were explicitly designed to only or primarily patrol a tight perimeter and never commit to chases.
As for how they want killers to play the game... normally? Spread pressure, use your macro sense, don't delay the game indefinitely and/or minimise gameplay with cheese strats like 3-gens or camping?
-"Map design is pretty bad across the board, so I don't think some maps requiring/forcing 3-gens is a decent defence of it being intended"
Look at a map like Azarov's.
You have 3 gens on one side+ 1 generator in the middle + 3 gens on the other side.
There is no M1 killer in the game without a movement power that can contest any combination of two generators on one side and one generator on the other side.
So when the developers say: we don't want 3 gens to be viable you either need:
- To Delete this map
- rework the map to be massively smaller (change that 11 to an 8)
- Prevent any killer without a movement power from playing this map
What most people don't realize is that most of the maps in DBD can be polarized in the same way that this map can be. The removal of "3 gen" as a strategy removes most of the killer roster as being "viable".
If you want to kill the game then removing 3 gens as a tactic is a good way to encourage all nurse/blight all the time.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3435768#Comment_3435768
I don't really think personal preference makes much of a difference regarding this one patch, though? The two things being tackled simply break out that way. Survivors always self healed. Killers did not always need to jealously hold a 3gen for forty minutes. If you played normally as killer, the changes in that patch to CoB and Overcharge shouldn't have affected you since those perks weren't that useful for regular regression anyway; the only thing you'd notice is Pain Res being sidegraded. If you played normally as survivor, you're gonna notice your medkits and CoH being much weaker.
-"If you played normally as killer, the changes in that patch to CoB and Overcharge shouldn't have affected you since those perks weren't that useful for regular regression anyway"
That's a false statement. I've used a single gen regression perk for years going back to the "time of Pop". With just one regression perk I was able to slow down survivors on average 90-180 seconds per game.
It was lame when people would touch a gen and pre-run so the killer just kicked that generator and went back to their three gen. What part of "pre running away from a gen" changed? It didn't.
What changed? The killer lost almost their entire ability to contest generators. What then do you have the ability to still do? You contest unhooks. Is that fun? No.
When I played the more terrible killers like trapper I used two gen regression perks (/gasp). Trapper with two regression perks was not bad. I used AGI with him as well to have good synergy for PR.
Tell me honestly though what survivor perk you would continue to use if it got a 75% nerf? How cool would Adrenaline be if it said : instantly heal 25% of the next health state and gain 1.25 seconds of haste.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3435753#Comment_3435753
...I'm starting to wonder if the segments of a post you highlight are the only parts you read.
The changes to Call of Brine and Circle of Healing specifically are not equal. The changes to the overall element being changed between survivor and killer - healing and 3gen protection, respectively - are equal. Or, at least, comparable. Like I said, killers came out ahead.
-"killers came out ahead."
I can't agree with that sorry. I would rather play in the pre 6.1 patch world than how the game is right now. As bad as DH was it wasn't "all this".
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3435703#Comment_3435703
I don't know, why would you? It's an interesting hypothetical, to present a situation where the point of the perk is to regress generators.
Because of course, on live, you'd use Call of Brine to track when generators are being repaired, since that's the thing that it does. Of course again, equally as obvious, I'm not stating those two perks are of comparable strength.
The point isn't that the changes are of equal impact, either, not one to one. Taking the update as a whole, though, yes, the changes are equal. Survivors lost ultra-fast self healing, killers lost (or at least partially lost) obnoxious 3-gen nonsense. Frankly, killers came out ahead in that patch, and by a long shot.
-"Because of course, on live, you'd use Call of Brine to track when generators are being repaired"
Here's the problem with what you're saying. Why use Bond when I could use CoH to track people who need healing - not that I want to heal them, I just want to know where they are.
CoB had a very clear purpose : regress generators. Nobody was using it to track gen repairs and that was just a built in bonus.
-"The point isn't that the changes are of equal impact"
Oh so one minute you say that survivors lost X and killers lost Y so everything is fine. And then you say: we'll it's no big deal if the losses are not equal.
The problem is that the altruism healing nerf didn't go through. That would have slowed down the game but what we have now really doesn't. Killers lost way more than survivors and you really see it on the bad killers that were massively being propped up by gen regression.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3435645#Comment_3435645
Pretty much, yeah, if you look at how useful each half was. Removing the self heal is ABSOLUTELY removing the biggest part of its use, exactly like Call of Brine.
Call of Brine had its regression half removed, Circle of Healing had its self-heal part removed. In both cases, the problematic element and the reason why people used it were addressed.
The reason I bring it up is that it irks me when I see people say "they killed regression without touching genrush!", because it misses the fact that 6.7.0 fixed one of the game's biggest + longest-standing issues and I really do not like that being glossed over for the sake of a narrative.
As a whole looking at the last few years of DBD killer was recently best right before CoH got added to the game. Everything after that is downhill unless you're playing Nurse/Blight with strong addons.
Why would you use CoB if the point of using the perk is to regress generators? You can still use CoH for super strong team healing that is on the level with We'll make it (which is still super strong and had zero changes from the dreaded "heal nerf").
That's not even close to being the same.
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@ApartheidChappie said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/376322/i-dont-trust-behaviours-map-designers
I can't say it more enough. Remove jigsaw map from this ######### game until you remove every god pallet and balance this map.
Here's how you balance "the game" map - you make only killers that can ignore or instantly break pallets be able to play it.
So if survivors use an offering to go to that map and you're on Doctor then the offering is ignored. If you use a game offering as doctor it works because you chose it.
But if you're playing Nemesis, Blight, Nurse, PH, Demo, etc., then you play the match.
You do the same for all maps that are larger than 9000m². Is that map really big? Ok then killers without mobility don't play it unless they pick it.
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@Kaitsja said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3434486#Comment_3434486
How often, realistically, does one get matched with these SWF kill squads? Unless you're high MMR, you're about as likely to get that kind of match as killer as survivors are to get matched against a 4,000 hour Nurse/Blight main who can 4k within a couple minutes of the match starting.
It happens, sure, but not nearly as often as people like to pretend. The problem with the genrush discussion is that no-one wants to admit that simply playing the game normally and doing your objective as a survivor is not genrushing.
Genrushing would be dedicating a build to completing gens as fast as possible, in order to maximise efficiency. That means perks like Hyperfocus w/Stake Out, Prove Thyself, Overzealous, etc. That means Commodius Toolbox with BNP.
-"How often, realistically, does one get matched with these SWF kill squads? Unless you're high MMR..."
Once is enough to make many people turn off the game instantly for the rest of the night.
@The_Krapper said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3434789#Comment_3434789
Not every team is a hit squad, most swf are still bad at the game and just because bad killers dodge lobbies doesn't mean swf is a problem, these are the same killers that dodge items and outfits it's absolutely ridiculous people are this upset that face camping is getting nerfed when everyone knows it's a cheap strat that unskilled players use and now they won't be able to just sit there like a sleezeball and ruin the game , the forum is in tears because now you actually have to go pressure the gens you're complaining are being rushed it's classic after people have been making gen stall perk builds and face camping for months now.
-"the forum is in tears because now you actually have to go pressure the gens you're complaining are being rushed"
The problem is when you see players with 7000-10000 hours who get absolutely rushed when they go from chase to chase to chase playing very efficiently.
If the professional players have problems then how is average joe noob killer going to fare? There's a reason nobody wants to play killer : the game is less fun than it used to be for the role.
-"Not every team is a hit squad"
You're right and you're wrong. Most people who are playing DBD in a SWF who have thousands of hours play massively better in SWF. What does playing in a SWF "cost"; in other words what do you "lose?" You lose nothing. What does the killer gain? The survivors play better with voice coms, have more coordination and the killer gets a more frustrating game where they are likely to get fewer points.
Why doesn't the killer get +2 perks when they play against SWF? When I talk in a SWF I'm getting the value of at least 12 info perks. That's on the level of cheating. So then why doesnt the killer get +4 perks?
I would never dodge a SWF if I got 4 bonus perks of my choice that only activate in case of SWF. You could do the same for solo survivors but only give them info perks ( rookie spirit, bond, kindred, alert, etc).
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3434836#Comment_3434836
What survivor perks got a nerf to compensate killers getting a nerf to Call of Brine? Circle of Healing.
Did it get a 75% reduction? No.
CoH was absolutely without doubt broken on the levels of 2016 NOED.
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@solarjin1 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3434823#Comment_3434823
1 I can agree with less god pallets and more pallets that can be mind game. The game map should be a perfect example of why.
2 kinda agree. Some killers just auto lose cause half the gens can't be Patrol on these big maps.
3 all maps should absolutely not have a guarantee 3 gen build into them. Your fifth point sound way better
4 The main building is fair because of all the pallets that spawn around it. The actual building itself is hot garbage on the survivor side. 2 windows on the lower level that get u nearly no distances. One window upstairs that get u some distances if they have to break the wall but immediately is offset cause u even gotta run down the stairs or fall off and stagger. It a bottom 3 main buildings...right up there with coal tower building and bargo (not that bargo need to be any stronger lol)
-"all maps should absolutely not have a guarantee 3 gen build into them."
The second there is no viable 3 gen the best option becomes : camp the hook and punish unhooks.
"The main building is fair because of all the pallets that spawn around it"
When you look at Ironworks vs Garden of Joy it becomes clear one has a fair setup and one does not. GoJ main building has three massively overpowered windows; the map should at most have one good window.
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@Orochi said:
This may have already been discussed in some ways here, but I just wanted to share my thoughts on this topic. I have seen people pointing out the healing nerfs may have something to do with it, but I am going to elaborate on that further.
I think the biggest reason gens are going so much faster now is the CoH nerf. In SoloQ, you would typically see at least one person running this, if not sometimes 2 or 3. And more often than not, these players are prioritizing searching for a totem and booning it ASAP. That's at least one person using what could be a full generator's completion time to boon. Not to mention having to keep re-booning once snuffed, which some players would do predictably and waste a lot of time or get themselves hooked trying.
Another part of this is that less teamwork was required to heal. In most ways removing this attribute to promote team play was a good thing; no more interference with hit and run and worrying about having to constantly snuff boons way out of your radius to stop gens. But as far as generators getting completed is concerned, you now have 1.) People being forced to find teammates to heal, but now they are teaming on gens more, making Prove Thyself even better, and 2.) Not having players go completely out of their way to run to the boon and self-heal. Considering getting healed by a fellow Survivor was comparable to the boon self-heal (I forget the numbers) I think people are actually saving time without CoH and can spend more time on gens. As Survivor, I was never a fan of CoH for this very reason, sometimes it was placed well and saved time, but also could waste a lot of time on gens too. Also, not having to run CoH frees up a perk slot for whatever they want, like Resilience or Prove.
The next part is the Medkit nerfs. No CoH does promote more Medkit use, but people can obviously opt to run their best toolboxes as well. And...THEY ARE. I will admit, as Survivor lately and understanding the meta and what people are going after as far as wanting nerfs, I've been bringing BNPs as much as I can. I've typically gone after them if I see them on my Bloodweb, and I KNOW they are going to be nerfed in the near future. Wanting the most of my Bloodpoint use, I am bringing them more lately, especially with Medkits being less effective (they are still good however). I don't know if others have the same idea, but even in SoloQ it appears to be so.
Now, we take a look at how this affects SWFs. The aforementioned need to team up for healing, less time wasted needing to boon, and more toolboxes? These healing nerfs have actually made them so much more proficient at wanting to pump out gens. Now they are 99'ing heals for Resilience (a perk you have no idea in SoloQ if your teammate is running or not) splitting up who brings Prove Thyself to team gens, and possibly a full set of BNPs or at the least strong toolboxes and maybe one flashlight. They can coordinate so much better to just pump out gens.
I know a lot of this is probably obvious, but I just wanted to sum up my thoughts on the matter since it's such a hot topic ATM. It was a mistake to simply nerf healing and not take a look at generator speeds in the process. It was easy to overlook since nerfing things seems like a good way to help (and in a lot of ways it still does), but the culmination forced Survivors to adjust and simply doing gens faster against all the tunneling and camping with no boons has resulted in the gens now flying. Thanks for reading.
It might have had something to do with gen regression perks getting a 70% nerf and gen rushing perks getting no changes.
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@Nos37 said:
I was playing Huntress and I began looking down as soon as I got pallet stunned with Enduring. My screen stopped moving down (meaning I was looking all the way down) BEFORE it started filling up brighter... And then it continued getting brighter... Then I was blinded.
Purple flashlight with the iri bulb and the event bulb.
Was this a cheater, a bug, or are survivor items just allowed to be that stupid broken??
-"Was this a cheater, a bug, or are survivor items just allowed to be that stupid broken??"
When you are stunned at a pallet you can't look away fast enough if the survivor decides to blind you. It's really that simple.
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@Johnny_XMan said:
See patch 6.1.0 😉
The patch that made killer easier to play against solos and harder to play vs SWF?
Also don't forget the patch right after that took away almost everything the killer got from the 6.1 patch. What survivor perks got a 75% nerf to compesnate killers getting a 75% nerf to CoB?
What was the net gain for killer? You have zero base kit perks.
Survivor has Base kit BT and will soon have basekit deliverance vs campers.
All survivors got massive info updates to make them play more like SWF groups by being able to see gen/heal progress.
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@GHOSTfaceP3 said:
Ive put over 7k+ hrs into dbd most of that on solo survivor or killer and stopped almost a year and a half ago ....my question is, is it worth coming back?? Killer was very frustrating to play when I left and so was solo survivor but I stayed because I genuinely love dead by Daylight and even tho I stopped playing it always remained my favorite game online ...so what is the new meta like?
-"Killer was very frustrating to play when I left and so was solo survivor but I stayed because I genuinely love dead by Daylight and even tho I stopped playing it always remained my favorite game online"
Nurse and Blight are "fine". The Top 8 or so killers beneath them are "mostly ok" if you bring super strong perks and addons. Everything else is not really worth playing in terms of frustration.
To play survivor and not suffer you want to bring a 4 man swf.
The new meta? Gen Regression got completely deleted but gen rushing perks didn't get touched - enjoy playing killer. Both sides tunnel out their objective to make the game as short as possible.
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@[Deleted User] said:
I think the filler tile philosophy needs to be:
Low wall=somewhat unsafe but playable
High wall=safer but LOS blocks to compensate
Too many filler tiles have low walls or no walls at all like Shattered Borgo, but they're also 100% safe. It can't be both and be balanced.
Most of the pallets in DBD now are "safe". This is not the same as having pallets that can be mind gamed (such as both of the pallet car loops around Badham).
Once upon a time we had plentiful pallets and they were "unsafe". A perfect example was one loop from the old haddonfield that was a tree+ garbage can+ pallet. If you didn't get the stun you were getting a hit. The rock pallet in the corner of main on dead dog is a similar style of pallet to the old "unsafe" pallets but the loop was much shorter so the killer had a near guaranteed hit if you did not get the stun.
Map design needs to be something like :
- For every god pallet there is one unsafe pallet that is almost completely unusable; do not add extra "unsafe" pallet spawns but instead replace some safe pallet loops with unsafe pallets. There should never be "lots" of god pallets (looking at you "the game"). Just pause to think for a minute if that map had like 80% unsafe pallets. Note : the car pallet loops around badham are "mindgamable" pallets not "unsafe". Almost every pallet on a map should be mindgamable if you want M1 killers to be viable.
- All maps should be ~9000m² or they should not be playable by killers without mobility powers.
- All maps need to have multiple viable 3 gen locations. The whole : 3 gens on one side +middle gen+ 3 gens on the other side needs to go away. Wreckers yard is a perfect example of a fair map.
- Main buildings need to not have broken time wasting events. Ironworks is a perfect example of how to make a fair main building. The breakable wall upstairs works exactly once and that loop is "done". The main building loop only works in one direction. There are NOT multiple vault windows out of the main building (reading that sentence should tell you Garden of Joy is trash). If the same person that made the Ironworks rework made the Badham rework then there would be a breakable "fence" wall next to the vault on the main building (on the inside wall not the outer wall).
- If you want to make large maps work then killers should be able to open up passages that survivors cannot use. The bathroom passage in Mid is a perfect example. Remove the corridor and make it an instant teleport only for the killer from one doorway to the other. Maybe you could add a survivor perk that lets them use such a door way once per game with some severe limitation - but only if they are injured and using the door gives them the broken status for the rest of the game.
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@H2H said:
Since survivors have basekit anti-tunnel and will soon have basekit anti-camp and basekit anti-slug, it seems only fair for killers to get a basekit counter to survivors engaging in unfun boring no counterplay gen rush gameplay.
Maybe the first time a gen reaches 50% it will automatically block for a while or instantly regress a large amount! Maybe survivors will have to take a chase to gain repair tokens they can spend to repair some percentage of a generator!
The starting point for fairness would be : basekit Deadlock. This should prevent the killer from losing multiple gens in the first chase.
What if someone wants to run the Deadlock perk? It's very simple : you just change the perk to add +30 seconds to the base kit timer.
Furthermore the Deadlock mechanic would need to have "rollback protection" added in so that if two generators are completed at the same time then one rolls back to 99% completion and is blocked.
So many people want the killer to suffer when they tunnel a survivor. The reality is that tunneling becomes necessary vs efficient survivors because the gens get completed too quickly.
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@[Deleted User] said:
They did - it's called +10s extra gen repair time and 2.5% progress loss on kick
If you can't stop gens, im afraid that's a you problem and not a game problem
They really didn't. Remember how survivors got +10 seconds of basekit BT off the hook? That's the exact time shift killers "save" with the extra generator time except that you expect 9 hook events during a game and only 5 gens to get completed.
Even this math is in favor of the survivor by 40 seconds.
@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3434740#Comment_3434740
Yeah actually, i want the game to be balanced around high level players. Not even just SWF. This video at the timestamp sums it up:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1p42KtZOCw&t=203s
What is the high level top tier survivor doing? They are exploiting extremely powerful loops on cowshed that make it nearly impossible for a killer to catch them. What are "average" survivors doing? Predropping shack pallet at 5 gens and getting hit anyway. These average survivors aren't exploiting the broken mechanics that top tier survivors are doing, so if you nerf those top tier mechanics, you aren't actually hurting those survivors.
If you disagree, and think the game should be balanced around low skill players, then i'll be eagerly awaiting the MASSIVE buffs that nurse needs, given that she is by far the worst killer in the game when looking at "average" skilled players.
-"What is the high level top tier survivor doing? They are exploiting extremely powerful loops on cowshed that make it nearly impossible for a killer to catch them."
Never played TF2 but the parachute segment is a perfect example that shows the difference between top players and average players. One of the biggest problems with DBD is that the loops are designed to hand hold average players. When you get to Cowshed and someone runs around a loop and doesn't throw the pallet after running around it 3-4 times then this ends up not being fair to the killer.
Funny enough VHS had mechanics that overcame several of DBD's problems.
Healing in DBD is still questionable because when I play "medic" I use 2 perks to heal people off the hook in under 7 seconds. This leads to scenarios where it feels to the killer that hits don't matter. VHS solved this problem by having the monster go enraged which meant hit = down no matter what.
Going back to the problem of looping we could fix broken maps very easily. Once upon a time in 2018 we had "super Bloodlust"; if you don't know what that is you can find some videos where streamers like Tofu talk about it. In short imagine if we changed the Bloodlust mechanic so that when a killer chases you they buildup bloodlust and it doesnt ever go away until they hit someone for damage. How would that change the game?
If we look at "bad" players we can say they loop for X seconds and we can be sure that X is some variable between 5-20 seconds before a killer hits them in chase. If we changed the game so that no matter what the very best players were only X+10 seconds instead of what we have now which is closer to X+40 seconds then killer would have a minimum chase time.
This would allow everyone to be on roughly the same page. The problem is that veteran players who are used to looping a killer for 30-60 seconds before getting hit would be very angry.
An even more simple solution would be to limit people by their MMR. What does that mean? New players have an 800 MMR so they would play on the maps we have now with extreme hand holding. Imagine if we made a 1200 MMR version of the same maps where either an entire jungle gym were removed from some maps or 2 filler pallets never spawned. That would be a much more challenging map but players in that MMR bracket would be fine. That leads us to the 1600+ MMR players who could run killers on maps with 4 pallets/vaults missing - therefore when they play any map it will spawn with a combination of 4 vaults and pallets "missing".
OR we could limit killers by the maximum MMR they should face. Imagine for example if Trapper were set to a 1199 MMR limit so they would never play against 1200 MMR players. That might make that killer "fair" to play.
Or we could go through the list and change all the killers to be on a Blight/Nurse level. Imagine the Legion killer. We give Legion Iri button base kit. Now Legion will chase down survivors with the ease of Blight.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3434096#Comment_3434096
he can still traverse maps better any other killer in the game. his mobility still exceed blight because it has no real internal cooldown. From point A to point B, Its straight up the best mobility in the game. the big nerf to billy are his chase potencial because of removal of charge-time add-ons. they reduced his chase potencial to basic m1 killer gameplay vs competent survivors. Only time will tell if billy ever get buffed properly but given that fact that they wanted to nerf doom engraving and yellow engraving in the PTB. Likely no real buffs will show up. Till then I'll just be playing chase bubba in memory of billy.
-"he can still traverse maps better any other killer in the game."
Did you forget Nurse? Even when Billy was considered an S killer most people considered Nurse to be S+.
-"From point A to point B, Its straight up the best mobility in the game."
You missed the forest for the trees in that they designed maps that would grossly interfere with his chainsaw sprint. It was a way to nerf Billy without adjusting his kit.
-"they reduced his chase potencial to basic m1 killer gameplay vs competent survivors."
And that's the core problem that has always been an issue even when he had much stronger addons and fewer limits.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3433904#Comment_3433904
Could I do better in their situations? No for otz and coco. Coco is a cracked Huntress and Otz is is just generally very good at the game.
Sooooo, despite how "OP" Survivors are even in this EXTREME example, the killer still won. Intriguing.
I dislike Tru3 because everything I hear from him is whining and encouraging a toxic mindset. He refuses to admit his own mistakes, he plays the game like it's still 2019, he's just not that good anymore, compared to other people. No shade to him, it's totally fine if he wants to play that way, but he has a really toxic mentality, imo.
Billy isn't exactly what I'd call a strong Killer. I've definitely seen him play Wesker and Pinhead recently. We were talking about skilled players, so I'm reiterating that Hens is up there.
-"I dislike Tru3 because everything I hear from him is whining and encouraging a toxic mindset"
He was the front runner for saying the game should be about chases not kills. You want a less crappy meta? You have Patrick and Otz to thank for that.
-"he's just not that good anymore,"
Cant say that I agree. True has always been one to pull out paint and teach game elements while he's playing. When on survivor he demonstrates high levels of skill (much better than otz). As killer Otz plays whatever his heart desires and True gets paid to play with usually "crap" builds and does pretty well with the garbage he is usually handed.
Overall the biggest differences between the two is that Otz does have more of a light hearted attitude but he does overall play against less skilled survivors.
-"Billy isn't exactly what I'd call a strong Killer."
If you get a map that isn't too problematic with pallets and you play near perfectly he's fine. A single chainsaw sprint miss can mean losing two kills.
The last time I saw Hens get floored with Billy he shook it off as: well it is only Billy and not Blight (or something very close to that).
-"it's totally fine if he wants to play that way, but he has a really toxic mentality, imo."
How would you say he has a toxic mentality?
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3433286#Comment_3433286
I am reflecting to your statement of how maps are "now" biased towards survivors - and showing you they went towards killers - directly contrasting it to your statement.
Most of the things @DBDVulture said even don't matter, because even though they are true, they are mostly irrelevant towards map design (and there were other things that helped survivors insanely - the whole game was very much survivor-sided).
The point is, that maps are "these days" much more killer sided then they were and saying "they are absolute farce these days" is just... Weird to say the least.
"I am reflecting to your statement of how maps are "now" biased towards survivors - and showing you they went towards killers - directly contrasting it to your statement."
Look at the last three maps:
Garden of Joy, Knight Map, Skull Merchant Map - those are all heavily survivor biased.
Most of the maps in the game favor a SWF that blasts a gen on one side and then a gen on the other side to destroy any possible 3 gen setup. Only a Nurse and Blight can deal with that on every tileset.
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@Crazewtboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3432373#Comment_3432373
As someone who still plays Billy and consistently kills with him I have to disagree with him being trash. His chainsaw autolock is one of the strongest in the game, almost ensuring you are getting a down when people are moving between pallets. People pre-drop pallets to avoid being hit by the chainsaw, and the map traversal alone makes him insane. Sure, he is nowhere near as great as he was, but he definitely isn't trash. Now that gen regression is gone and gens get done at insane speeds, not wasting time running from one side of map to the other is a game changer
-"As someone who still plays Billy and consistently kills with him I have to disagree with him being trash"
Can you compete with him and be on par with very good Blights? No you can't.
-"His chainsaw autolock is one of the strongest in the game, almost ensuring you are getting a down when people are moving between pallets. "
I'm guessing you don't know that it doesn't work on a downward slope. Ever have someone crouch at the shack pallet and you can't connect with them?
-"People pre-drop pallets to avoid being hit by the chainsaw, and the map traversal alone makes him insane."
"Sure, he is nowhere near as great as he was, but he definitely isn't trash. "
I dont think you really understand how he used to be able to traverse maps. Lerry's didnt exist and you could go from point A to point B with maybe only the occasional obstacle from a single direction.
Just watch a very strong Blight and you'll feel like youre playing a doctor by comparison.
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@Z0mbiv0r said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3432105#Comment_3432105
While you do have a point, I'll go back to the same. The solution isn't camping. Gen repair spped needs to be looked into and balanced.
Consider this: if my main objective as a survivor is to repair gens and avoid hooks, I'll try to go for gens farthest from the killer, If I'm doing a gen and a survivor is hooked, you can't expect me to immediately drop repairing and go for the hook. I'll usually wait a few seconds and see if other survivor who is not doind anything will go for the save before going there. If I'm close to the survivor, I'll either try to get close so I can unhook them safely if I think I can get there without the killer noticing me or just wait until the killer goes to go for the save. Going for the save immediately after being hooked is a waste of time and pretty much a death warrant.
Meanwhile, as a killer, if I hook a survivor, I expect survivors to not come to the rescue immediately, so if I am lucky, I'll have a survivor hooked, another one going for the save, and I'll be chasing another one soon. So that's three survivors not repairing and if I'm lucky I'll soon hook the one I'm chasing and snowball. Granted, some times this doesn't go as planned. But that doesn't seem as an excuse to camp, to me.
To be honest, as a survivor I rarely escape and as killer (depending on the killer of course) I do have games in which the 4 of them escape with 3-6 hooks and no one dead. And while it can be frustrating, I know that next game (or the one after the next) will most likely end with 4 dead survivors and I'll have enjoyed a balanced, interesting game with no need to camp.
Proxy camping, sure, I do use it sometimes. Not really because I think 'oh, I'm going to camp that survivor' but because I have a feeling someone is getting closer. Most of the times I am right, and some other times I waste a lot of time going around searching for someone who isn't there.
So in the end, yeah, you can camp if you want, but I think it's simply because you want to, no need to use the 'punishing gens before friends' excuse. My opinion, however. It's clear that we disagree on this and it's fine. What many of us seem to agree on is that gen repair speeds are ridiculous as of now.
Also, tunnelling is another matter. I've seen many killers go out of their way to tunnel a survivor. I usually do this (and it's not like I consider tunnelling, but survivors usually see it that way) when I'm going to hit the unhooking survivor and the unhooked one takes a protection hit because they are trying to bodyblock me. Ok, so if you went out of your way to waste your endurance like that, then I guess you are offering yourself as a sacrifice to me. And that's fine too. I do that sometimes as a survivor, but I know that in doing so, the killer will most likely come for me and then it only depends on my skill to loop him. Most of the times it ends up with me being dead soon, but I don't really blame the killer.
Most killers "camp" to force a hook state. They don't sit there staring at the survivor.
At the same time survivors display entitlement when you don't let them unhook when they have been cranking gens until the last possible second.
-"Going for the save immediately after being hooked is a waste of time and pretty much a death warrant."
Let me change a few words to illustrate a point.
Going for a different survivor after a hook is a waste of time and pretty much an automatic loss.
If you as a survivor force efficient play then you are NOT allowed to complain if the killer mirrors your stance and plays "unfun".
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@Eelanos said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3431701#Comment_3431701
Well, generators don't have emotions nor do they get points by being unrepaired, yet human beings do have feelings and getting camped means they started a match to end it in 2-3 minutes with 2-3k points, which is the main difference.
And of course, the killer would never understand this because they will always play a full match and they will always get at least 12k. They cannot be held hostage by survivors and prevented to play, which the same can't be said about survivors.
-"Well, generators don't have emotions nor do they get points by being unrepaired, yet human beings do have feelings and getting camped means they started a match to end it in 2-3 minutes with 2-3k points, which is the main difference."
You know what your post reminds me of?
This is the "duck rabbit". Put it in front of a child and they will see either the duck or the rabbit (but not both) depending on how the image is turned. They assume their mother sees the same image because that's what they see. This is a development test for children.
You've decided DBD to be only to be one way.
What player has the objective to defend the generators? That would be the killer. That's a player too and they have feelings. It's not a fun feeling when you can't go for any meaningful chases due to map design. It's not fun to the killer when you can't contest generators.
I will remind you that there is no possible scenario where the killer loses if the generators are not all completed.
Killers gain emblems by preventing the repair of generators. More emblems at the end of the month means more bonus blood points. So in fact your statement is factually incorrect (nor do they get points by being unrepaired).
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@Trollinmon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3432405#Comment_3432405
Abattoir is one of the fairest maps in the game.
Honestly think that is why they are changing Rancid. Since it's not a miserable map to play on they need to change it. It would make sense with the changes they've been making to maps for the last few years.
Midwich-miserable
RPD-miserable
GoP-super miserable
Borgo- super miserable
Gas- was super miserable but now just miserable
Blood lodge- miserable since corner pallets create large dead zones
Haddonfield-miserable
Mother's-miserable
Temple-miserable
Rancid is a map that needs attention since it isn't a miserable experience for either side, and that's clearly not ok.
Abattoir isn't a fair map - It's close due to its size but it has some RNG that swings it to favor survivors.
Wreckers yard is the only fair map in DBD right now.
@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3432432#Comment_3432432
Then why is the Killer at +100% BP every single night?
It's the symptom of a very big problem. Remember that 6.1 change that was supposed to make people want to play killer? I suspect the problem is worse now that Gen Regression got deleted.
Before 6.1 it was a regular thing to have about 100 survivor for every killer in Queue. We know this because people were pinging data from the DBD servers. It was common for there to be ~4500 survivors with 45 killers.
For almost the entire 6 year history of this game it has been an "unfun" experience to play killer. There have been "exception" times when you play the very best killers. People will say things like : well what about 2016? Billy was as broken as Blight is now when he could flick his chainsaw sprint and change the direction of the saw attack mid sprint (that is what people mean when they say flick - this "tech" was part of the original game). That was also a time when he had the "instant saw" addons.
The real question is : what happens if they nerf Nurse and Blight to the point that even those two killers cannot contest top end SWF groups?
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3432363#Comment_3432363
Coconut almost never uses gen perks, at least when i watched him. That's probably why his games are over fairly quickly.
Otz usually uses a variety of builds, but often doesn't stack slowdowns and generally plays pretty nice. He also usually admits where he messed up and what he could have done differently.
Tru is...not someone I would call extremely skilled. Knowledgeable? Certainly, but he seems like he's stuck in 2018 or 2019 DBD and isn't willing to move on. Which is totally fine, but he's just not anywhere near Otz or Coconut's caliber, imo.
Better examples would be Hens, Zaka, KnightLight etc etc
-"Coconut almost never uses gen perks, at least when i watched him"
All these comments are so critical - sounds like you could be doing better.
Coco had a game within the last year where survivors finished the gens in 2:43. Despite all odds he won because he is a ridiculous Huntress. The problem overall is physically should not be possible to finish the gens that fast.
Most people who are survivor mains do not like True because he has been advocating for game balance for a long time. Game balance when the killer is weak means buffs for killer. Survivor mains do not like that. He has over 9000 hours of playtime and overall he plays far more difficult players than Otz does.
Hens only plays "cheese". You'll see him play Billy, Nurse, Huntress, and Oni but I've literally seen him play Nemesis once. And I've never seen him play a super weak killer. I think he said something like he doesn't have fun playing them - yea nobody does because it's not fun to get stomped.
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@Crazewtboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3432059#Comment_3432059
The issue I have is I honestly prefer survivor more. When by myself with no one to talk to I get bored easily so killer will get stale fast. To help this issue I try to play just about every killer but I feel like when not playing Nurse, Blight, Spirit and (I know this will be debated) Billy I start the match with the odds against me. Before I never had a problem doing this, but like I mentioned before, the devs for some reason decided to nerf all the gen regression perks at the same time they nerfed healing and that really curbstomped a lot of killers in terms of pressure. I do play both sides, and I hate to be another person to complain, but I understand the frustration of killer players feeling undervalued.
The maps play a big part in these things. You are absolutely right about that. It makes you go from starting with bad odds to worse odds. You get a large map like Ormond with a low mobility killer? Forget about that game. You get a map like the Meat Plant with a bunch of safe pallets? Hope you happen to be playing anti-loop. As far as SWF, I don't really mind that aspect. I think the most annoying part about it though is comms eliminate the need for a lot of things. You know the killer and their perks without ever encountering them, you know exactly which pallets have been used without needing Windows of Opportunity. You know which direction the killer is headed when they break chase or leave a hook or if they choose to camp. You know how many totems are left, how to decide who goes for saves/gens and much more just from talking to each other. But at the same time being able to play with your friends is what keeps survivor fun and I don't think we will ever get a change to SWF comms so that is something to get used to
The issue with gen protection is making sure it isn't abused. If they ever did decide to implement that it would have to be done in a way that is fair so that it couldn't be taken advantage of. There is a lot of ways to argue either side honestly. The whole built in anti-tunnel is nice, but works with the assumption the killer finds someone else immediately and that the unhooked survivor doesn't immediately hop on a gen in their place and this isn't the case. So your options are to switch targets like the game wants (not beneficial against a team where everyone can run), hit the unhooked person (not beneficial) or chase them and hope they can't make it to a pallet. Regardless everyone else will be on gens and that is the issue. I'm all for a window of protection to make things more enjoyable, but I wish BHVR would consider it also isn't fun to have all gens done in a few minutes.
Bonus mention: Pallet hitboxes have felt extra generous lately. You won't even be standing in it yet it still manages to stun youl
I remember ages ago when the game director when to a Korean live event and played Hag on stream only to get smashed which is when they realized how bad the balance was. Thinking maybe he should play the game again sometime against a 4 man team like before and see how it goes again.
I have to agree with almost everything you're saying except Billy. Sorry but he's trash on most of the maps.
-"But at the same time being able to play with your friends is what keeps survivor fun and I don't think we will ever get a change to SWF comms so that is something to get used to"
The problem with SWF is that you get "extras" at no cost. This is why literally every Moba limits how many people you can bring into a game unless it's teams on teams. SWF essentially gives you extra perks - so why doesn't the killer get extra perks when they play against SWF?
If that's too much then limit the perks/items/offerings/characters so that no one can repeat any of those things. That's a bare minimum request to keep the game fair for killer.
-"Bonus mention: Pallet hitboxes have felt extra generous lately. You won't even be standing in it yet it still manages to stun you"
They physically made pallets larger when they did the graphic rework. This made pallet stuns more generous since the hitbox got bigger.
-"I'm all for a window of protection to make things more enjoyable, but I wish BHVR would consider it also isn't fun to have all gens done in a few minutes."
I've said this multiple times; it makes no sense for balance that the survivors get tunnel protection but the killer doesn't. The survivor time to win is 3-4 minutes for an efficient team and the killer time to win is 6-8 minutes.
Why didn't killer get Deadlock Base kit? Gen rushing has been an issue for 6 years. We never seemed to get that "second objective" to slow down the game.
Why didn't gen rush perks get a 70% nerf when Gen regression got a 70% nerf? Why didn't toolboxes become sabotage only?
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3432086#Comment_3432086
If you lose a game in 3 minutes, that's usually on you.
Remember we're not talking about me.
I'm talking about games I have seen on the streams of killer mains like : Otz, Truetalent and CoconutRTS to name a few.
When we have extreme veteran professional players losing the gens in 3 minutes it's a pretty clear sign that something is wrong with game balance.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3431990#Comment_3431990
Downing and hooking survivors is the best way to prevent gens from being done in 3-4 minutes.
That's a great idea in theory. And what happens when you're playing an older killer that doesn't have anti loop and the only chase options you have are ~2 minute minimum due to survivor favored maps.
Oh right that wouldn't work too well would it?
Again the problem is that some of the killers are mechanically outdated. Some of the maps are just extremely gross to play as any killer besides Nurse or Blight. Put the two together and you should lose every single time. Often you don't because survivors usually make at least one big mistake unless they are on voice coms.
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@EmmaFrostyEyes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3432152#Comment_3432152
I have seen both if them post loses. Otz has done that a done. When tru3 does it its just so he can get back to his “survivor op and killer oppressed narrative”
look what they can do is make the tutorials better to help you out. But anyone that has played this game knows that eventually you learn stuff especially if you play both sides
The only loss I've ever seen true post is when he played against Oracle. The only loss I've ever seen Otz post is how he lost a streak.
@lifeisstrange said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3431990#Comment_3431990
The following are not tunneling protection but more of bandages that already a no no on a deep cut
Reassurance= you got get really close to use it and this can even have you to force yourself to take a hit
bt=95% of killers count to 10 and still tunnel example I got 0 hooks am healthy killer is face camping survivor whos on hook 1 or 2 and I decide to take the exchange, they will literally slug me and chase that person I decide to take the exchange for.
Kinship= I dont even think I ever seen anyone even touch this perk but good attempt
-"Kinship= I dont even think I ever seen anyone even touch this perk but good attempt"
Better teams can use it very well but not randoms. It's really strong as well for tournament play.
"-The following are not tunneling protection but more of bandages that already a no no on a deep cut"
Meanwhile Killers have literally nothing. We have statements from the devs like : so what if you lose 3 gens in the first chase? It's a pretty clear example of favoritism.
Want killer to stop camping? Give them a buff from core mechanics that makes sense: if a killer is more than 16m from a hook the generator with the most progress begins regressing and cannot be stopped until the survivor on the hook is rescued (as long as the killer does not get closer to the hook).
Killers didn't even get base kit deadlock. And the door mechanic remains wimpy as ever.