DBDVulture
DBDVulture
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@KeiOrtem said:
Apparently theres a new exploit out and about that I really hope gets fixed as it affects killers like billy, demo, blight and maybe a few others. Apparently if a survivor crouches while billy is doing a chainsaw sprint or demo with a shred(which depends on location for demo I think) all the survivor has to do is crouch and the killer will either bounce off or just act like they are hitting a wall. I really hope this gets fixed because we already dont have enough people playing demo or billy ;~;
It isn't new. It's been part of the game for as long as these killers were in the game.
Billy for example cannot get a chainsaw hit if he is moving down a hill and a survivor crouches. It is an incredibly dumb oversight.
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@fussy said:
Just remove Obsession condition already. As much i love this perk as much a hate it, because survivors get value from this perk way more often then me.
I really hope u have some huge overhaul for perks for anniversary ptb, because u just destroyed killers perks and gave nothing in return.
Any Means (my favourite survivor perk btw long before its last buff) need a cooldown, at least 30 sec.
CoH still broken af.
Dark Theory also increase vault speed.
Selfcare 45-50%.
Oppression could easily have 40 sec cd.
Grim Embrace 60 sec and works twice if you didn't hook someone twice in a row.
Hangman's Trick. I haven't seen this perk either in my matches or on anyone's streams for three years. Still untouched lmao.
Fire Up 5-5,5% per token?
Game Afoot 8-10% for 10 seconds
Thana 4+4+4+(4+4)
Predator shows scratch marks of survivors for 2 seconds after they stop running.
Should I continue? Or do the killers have to use Sloppy/Corrupt/Deadlock/No Way Out for another year until they are became "meta" and get nerfed?
Just remove Obsession condition already. As much i love this perk as much a hate it, because survivors get value from this perk way more often then me.
Just make it so that hooking someone is -4% and remove any buff the survivors would have.
I mean imagine if having Sprint Burst buffed the killer in some way lol.
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@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
Lately there was a lot of posts about this game dying, as always.
I have seen lots of complaining about tunneling and camping. Even tho my experience was quite good even as soloQ, but that's anecdotal.
Funny to me is that I don't think there is a way to play killer except losing that survivors wouldn't complain about.
I would just like to find out what you see as a playstyle, which would be managable to balance for 60% kill rate, but also acceptable to play against.
So what killer can do:
Tunnel?
Best way currently to win, survivors hate it
Camping?
Also good way to win, got nerfed (by perk) and survivors hate it a lot
Slugging?
Hate it almost as much as camping. Three killers basically have to do it.
3-gen?
Another good way to win, got nerfed hard and survivors hate it. Even tho some killers are really bad without this.
End-game build?
It allowed more friendly playstyle with chance of comeback later, got nerfed (NOED). Most survivors hate it.
Hit&run?
This was really bad for long time, because of CoH. It got comeback this patch. I have already seen complains on it. Most players also don't like Legion, who is one of best killers for this. Survivors want to chase, but killer won't do it.
Slow-down stacking?
Got nerfed probably most, you could basically do whatever you wanted, because you had time for it. There was lot of complaining on slow-down perks. Most of them were nerfed significantly.
Zoning / anti-loop?
Not sure if this should be single category, but we can see how much hate Knight get. Also lot of complaining about all new anti-loop killers. Survivors don't like hold W, but neither do killers.
Playing top tier killer?
Yeah, Nurse and Blight are so popular between survivors...
So far only acceptable way would be 12 hooking, without top tier killer, without stacking slow-downs.
How the hell you want to balance for that...
Everything you said is factually correct. Most of the people I play with in a SWF cannot play anywhere near at the same level as killer. So many times I hear people say : why is the killer tunneling?
The reply that floors 100% of people who ask is : when was the last time you played as survivor and got all gens to 33% before ever getting a generator to 66%? Nobody plays like that because it is incredibly inefficient.
@IWasLrft2Die said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3410079#Comment_3410079
Yeah 3 gen isn't as bad as people make it out to be tbh. That's more on survivors planning poorly than the killer being lame.
The only real way I get irritated is getting facecamped on first hook, but people can play how they want.
Skull merchant 3 gen is obnoxious to me, but I can see why a killer might enjoy it.
Issues with how a killer wins is more on the game having issues than the player themselves to me (unless a teammate throws the game)
-"Yeah 3 gen isn't as bad as people make it out to be tbh"
Skull Merchant and Knight kind of ruined the game in that they were abusive when combined with a 3 gen WITH only slowdown perks. Instead of fixing the problematic killers they killed slowdown for most of the other killers.
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@EmmaFrostyEyes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3413411#Comment_3413411
Historically both sides have had busted perks. After 6.1 eruption was the best perk in the game easily.
“What does the killer have to earn time back to counter an exhaustion perk?”
what?
“Gen regression was nuked to the point where I would never consider using any of those perks anymore”
eruption is still good its just not op. Pain res is still a good perk i had a blight use it and i had a gen 98 percent and 2 pain res hooks made it take forever. He won that game too
also if you had to stack gen regression (using overbrine eruption) to win games and your complaining that its gone then you just were never good to begin with
the game is in its most balanced state its whoever sweats the most that wins at this point
-"also if you had to stack gen regression (using overbrine eruption) to win games and your complaining that its gone then you just were never good to begin with"
I was using 1 regression perk with most of my killers.
When I played Trapper I was using a combination like Overcharge+PR because that killer is trash compared to the good killers.
Your reply is not really very fair when you play against people who are in a 4 man SWF using BNPs and Hyperfocus, etc.
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@EmmaFrostyEyes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3413245#Comment_3413245
Um idk why you brought up boons and hexs.
“exhaustion would be fine if there was a counter perk that penalized a team of survivors while they were exhausted. As an example : the killer has a perk maybe called despair that reveals your aura to the killer if you are exhausted. Don't want to be seen? Don't run an exhaustion perk.”
this is what caught my attention. And again one of the worst ideas i have ever heard. At that point just delete all survivor perks since if they nerf them exhaustion youll be complaining about the next meta after.
also boon totems suck. There only one good boon totem and its only in swf. They are worthless in solo que. There are plenty of good hex totems. I see devour alot in my games. Noed got nerfed yet its still very good as it will give you 1 free down even if you got 0 hooks all game.
Well my phone has been ringing off the hook and I might have answered the wrong thread when I got interupted - my bad.
What does the killer have to earn time back to counter an exhaustion perk? The perks that could were things like Overcharge, Eruption and CoB but all three have been obliterated.
Gen regression was nuked to the point where I would never consider using any of those perks anymore (the same way I would never use Sabotage after remembering the 2016 version).
The problem with this game is that some of the perks are S+ tier and most the perks are C tier. More often than not killers get B-C tier perks and Survivors overall have historically had much stronger perks.
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@Xernoton said:
Shadowborn is overrated? I've never seen someone say that Shadowborn is a good perk and I run it EVERY MATCH. It just feels so much better.
The most overrated perk in my opinion is Discordance. It's a great perk in theory but I'll be happy to see it trigger once or twice per game. I just don't get that much value out of it.
It's much better on some killers like Legion or Nemesis. For most of the killers you can't pressure more than one person at a time anyway so it does nothing.
@GensByDaylight said:
NOED, Jolt, and NWO.
NOED will get you 1 or 2 downs... and? You can just facecamp like you normally would? Or you can actually try to stop the survivors from getting all gens done. It doesn't feel that useful. The only time you'll get good NOED use is if you facecamp someone at the totem...
Jolt is only 8%. As well as only on a basic down. Before hyperfocus and genrush focused builds? Sure, but now its just not that useful.
Everyone puts No Way Out in S-Tier. Every single time I play against it we all just stealth off and the killer spends a minute running around and sometimes finds someone. Its only really good if he's already in chase, or near the final gen. It isn't rare to get use out of it, but its no where near as good as PR or Corrupt or even Deadlock
NOED has been a trash perk for a long time but the changes to make its aura visible make it a complete joke.
Jolt is only good on small maps where you hit multiple gens per down. It does very little without the regression perks that got obliterated last patch.
NWO is overrated because it is more efficient to tunnel the first person out.
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@EmmaFrostyEyes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3408008#Comment_3408008
this is one of the worst ideas i have ever heard
Explain to me why it's a bad idea for Survivors and killers to play by the same rules for Hex Totems and Boons?
If the thought is : nobody would use Boons if they were kicked once and removed then you would be right. That's exactly the reason almost nobody playing a serious game uses lots of Hexes.
Boons/Hexes are the perfect example of where Survivors get a very "feel good" version and Killers get nearly useless perks that are best used mostly in meme or gimmick builds.
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@HoodedWildKard said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3412610#Comment_3412610
This is the thing. I'm not saying to nerf killer and buff survivor in general. The mmr split is pretty wide in this game. High mmr the sweaty survivor swfs rule and killer is always playing catch up. But at low mmr, for killers it is such a cakewalk.
I'd love to see a way to help low mmr survs without it benefitting high mmr swfs. I have suggested detailed ways of doing that before, VC, rolling handicaps, an actually decent tutorial etc. But all we've seen has been the player action icons, handy but it doesn't really fix how garbage solo q is.
"The mmr split is pretty wide in this game. High mmr the sweaty survivor swfs rule and killer is always playing catch up. But at low mmr, for killers it is such a cakewalk."
If you mean : persons playing the very strong killers win easily at mid MMR then sure. If you mean the "meh" killers win easily in Mid MMR then I'm going to say no.
This is one of the things I would love to blast Otz with; he says well when survivors have the very best vs Blight and Nurse it's equal. Well that's fine but the difference between Blight and Nurse is extreme. What would make playing Trapper be on the same playing field? Maybe it would approach equality if every survivor had to bring No Mither.
"I'd love to see a way to help low mmr survs without it benefitting high mmr swfs"
That would be perfectly fine.
I would also love to see real changes to the game so that the broken/weak killers can play "fine" against 4 man SWF bully squads. This of course is no easy task because in order for weak killers to be viable they need:
- Movement speed as either a power or base speed increase. Without movement speed you suffer from the "shift w" problem. Would Trapper be scary with 120% speed Base? The answer is probably no but it would make him "suck less"
- Strong Anti Loop. Every killer needs this as part of their kit.
- 4v1 potential like Pig, Pinhead, and Nemesis enjoy OR the same kind of 4v1 that Blight and Nurse have because they end chases so fast that there is almost no downtime between chases.
- Chase Lethality is necessary for every killer in the game. The moment the survivors do not care about being chased is the clear notification that the killer(s) in question need massive buffs.
You either need to do everything in this list OR you need to do a complete map redesign scheme. Imagine for a moment that we keep all the maps we have and make 9000m² versions for all killers who are NOT Nurse/Blight. That's right we make a new smaller version of all the maps with fewer vaults/pallets with everything closer together. Then we prevent Nure/Blight from playing on these maps and maybe we make the maps we have even bigger b/c they will only be played by the "broken" killers. All the generators on the new maps are closer so that we have multiple possible locations per map for 3 gens.
God pallet count per each map will be 1 or fewer. /gasp.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3412996#Comment_3412996
I'm pretty sure that they've spoken about how a Killer not attempting to pursue their objective and holding an infinite three-gen is holding the game hostage.
Could be wrong though. Also, am I still a Survivor main or do I get to join the killer club again?
-"I'm pretty sure that they've spoken about how a Killer not attempting to pursue their objective and holding an infinite three-gen is holding the game hostage."
If you chase people and try to get hits then it's not holding hostage. If you are doctor and just chain shock so nobody can ever do anything then that is hostage taking.
Holding a 3 gen is completely inside the rules.
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@IWasLeft2Die said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3413028#Comment_3413028
I'd be into killers being able to see all dull totems and they can go to the dull totem to light the totem. I'd say you should be able to keep relighting the totems though
Totems never get used because they are once and one. Consider for a moment Bamboozle. Is the perk overpowered? No it is completely fine. What about the hex version that basically does the same thing : Crowd Control? Inherently underpowered because it is a hex that gets removed.
Funny enough at one point we suggested Dead Hard should be a boon and then every survivor was like hell no - because they were worried about the killer kicking their boon that can be infinitely restored.
Boons should be kicked once and removed forever and Hexes should be cleansed once and removed forever OR both should be able to be rekindled as long as there are bones
Killer should be able to break bones with a "stomp" interaction as part of the base kit.
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@Cynwale said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3413015#Comment_3413015
I don't even know if u are correct or not, I just said Survivors are always bad.
It sounded like you were trying to say I was opinionated killer main who claims survivors are always in the wrong - which is NOT what I was saying.
Go have a look and search the forums for holding the game hostage.
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@Skill_issue said:
Right now it has 100 percent regression and is disabled after a survivor death (along with the nerf of being a hex/cue overzealous boost)...would it be so crazy to keep everything the same but buff it to regress 200 percent(possibly back to 100 if within a 32 meter radius of the killer to prevent gen camping)?
It promotes a healthier game dynamic since it encourages chases for gen pressure and even with undying isnt that impactful currently...what are the communities thoughts?
Are there any other hex totems you feel deserve a buff and/or nerf?
Ruin is a dead perk - thanks for playing.
If you want hex totems to be a healthy killer experience then change them as follows:
The killer can re light any unlit totem (other than undying) instantly by clicking on dull bones just like a pentimento interaction.
Survivors can remove hexes forever by removing all the bones.
This is the beginning of making hexes useful.
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@Cynwale said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3412996#Comment_3412996
Exactly, Killers Mains are never faulty unlike Survivors Mains.
Holding the game hostage for killer is very clearly explained in multiple places by Peanits.
Doctor not hitting anyone but just causing madness level 3 is actually holding the game hostage. Hitting people every now and then is not because you are advancing the goal. Comming to chases trying for a hit also counts as trying to achieve the goal.
Look it up and you will see I am correct.
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@MrMooseyMan said:
Hey everyone, I wanted to share an experience I had in a recent game and get your thoughts on who was at fault here. I was playing against a Pyramid Head, and it came down to me and one other survivor. Neither of us had been hooked yet, but the killer kept knocking us down without hooking us, seemingly intent on getting a 4k. This cycle of getting knocked down, picked up by the other survivor, and then hunted down again repeated a few times.
Finally, the killer knocked down the other survivor, and I decided not to rescue her, just wanting the game to end. The killer toyed with her a bit before finally hooking her. I didn't attempt a rescue and managed to escape through the Hatch. In the post-game chat, the other survivor blamed me for not ending the game sooner, even though the power to do so was in the killer's hands.
So, I'm posing this question to you all: In this situation, who was really at fault? Was it my responsibility to end the game sooner, or should the other survivor have been blaming the killer for dragging the game out? I personally think it's the killer's fault for holding the game hostage, but I'd love to hear your thoughts.
"Hey everyone, I wanted to share an experience I had in a recent game and get your thoughts on who was at fault here."
"I personally think it's the killer's fault for holding the game hostage"
Holding the game hostage is when the killer physically blocks a player and does not attack them. It is also when survivors refuse to save players , heal or touch generators. These are deliberate choices where neither side is actively trying to progress the game.
This might shock you to learn but survivors who do not complete their objectives for an extended period of time are actually holding the game hostage.
If the killer is actively chasing people and knocking them down without hooking then they are 100% NOT holding the game hostage. You might feel that way but knocking someone to the floor will eventually end that player after four minutes.
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Deadlock is actually quite good right now as it lets you stand around a hook longer when most players cant be pushing the most important objective.
If you watch the streamer CMWinter he's very good at punishing hook states while deadlock is active. When you look at how much time you save with perk XYZ Deadlock is a very real winner in that it will block 4 generators for 30 seconds which is a total of 120 seconds guaranteed.
It might not block the gens when people want to finish them but you can force that situation (see above).
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@HoodedWildKard said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3412596#Comment_3412596
Then we'll have to agree to disagree. Old eruption would absolutely destroy solo q teams because there was no way to reliably avoid it except to just not work the gen at all which would lose more progress in the long run. And pain res was so spammable, plus it's synergy worh DMS made it pretty much the same as eruption just more avoidable. Inused to use pain res a lot on my sweaty builds and it really carried games.
You can't base perk balance just on the performance at high levels of play. A good swf with VC could counter them reasonably easily. But teams with less co-ordination (i.e. most of them) would get crippled by these perks.
-"Old eruption would absolutely destroy solo q teams because there was no way to reliably avoid it except to just not work the gen at all which would lose more progress in the long run."
And DH still is very strong while Eruption is very "meh". The nerf DH needed was no sprint burst but you get endurance.
-"You can't base perk balance just on the performance at high levels of play."
That's not fair when most of the killer perks they implement are severely limited b/c Nurse and Blight are awesome with no perks.
Balance needs to look at low level/mid level/high level. Some games have different rules for each tier.
Most of the maps are not fair to most of the killers because they are just too big.
Otz has a video where he looks at Nurse and Blight vs super strong survivors and determins the game is "fine" b/c Nurse and Blight exist. Excuse me but where's the world's best doctor to compete with the #1 survivor team? There's actually no need to play that game out b/c we know what happens : Doctor gets owned.
Most of the killer cast gets Destroyed by 4 man SWFs running best items.
I will remind you that SWFs have an escape rate that is in some cases 15% higher. Amd we just give SWF a blind eye because changing it in any way to make it fair would be "less fun for survivor".
You can't have the downhill street both ways for survivor if you want the game to be fair.
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@HoodedWildKard said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3411987#Comment_3411987
Tbh most of those regression perks needed to be toned down. Not nuked from orbit like bhvr has done but things like eruption and pain res could carry games on their own. And the CoB overcharge combo was way too strong.
There is a big difference between annoying and oppresive. SB and lithe give survs a much needed tool in chase, a one shot to use in each chase to gain distance and extend the chase. The old regression meta made it nearly impossible to finish gens if killer had half a brain. As for the killer specific nerf idk what state they were in before, but spirit is still strong. Dread to think what she was like beforehand.
I have to disagree sorry - those perks were fine but it was Knight/SM who needed a proper rework.
Those perks did too much with their kit. CHange their kit not nuke the perks so most killers cant even run regression anymore.
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@Gylfie said:
Because I can't pull it off, and I feel like I will never be a good survivor without it.
I'm okayish at looping but the moment the killer catches up to me or I make a mistake, I go down 100%. But when content creators on Youtube get caught off guard or make a mistake, they casually dodge the swing with a spin and make it to a nearby loop. Not every time, of course, but I think it happens often enough to matter.
I've looked up tutorials on how to 360 on pc but I just can't pull it off and I'm the type of person that gives up easily when I don't immediately have a knack for something, so I haven't tried again.
Is this something everyone else is easily doing? And is it really as important or game-changing as I think it is?
-"I can't pull it off, and I feel like I will never be a good survivor without it."
I dont know if I want to play killer anymore after this last patch but I can tell you in the patch before and in 6.1 I was regularly playing against comp level survivors (many of whom had 5,000-10,000 hours played and had various comp wins in their profile).
Generally speaking 97% of people don't ever spin me. In other words : in all the games I have played this is an effective tactic 3% of the time.
If you ever watch Ayrun or JRM play they do these giant super spins and most of the time it doesn't work. If you watch their videos it works all the time (funny how there is a difference right).
When does spinning work?
1. Very rarely the killer isn't expecting it due to some terrain element or something else and it works as a fluke but would never work again in the same game.
2. It works great against noob killers you would have easily won against without it.
Also be aware that spinning will go down in effectiveness because DH largely speaking doesn't really get used anymore.
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@HoodedWildKard said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3409516#Comment_3409516
Well I started playing august last year so no never saw the early state of the game.
Even without killer inflicted exhaustion revealing you (that'd be a nightmare to differentiate when coding) it would still shaft newer players and punish them hard for using what are really essential perks for survs to run.
Just because high mmr survs use something effectively doesn't mean we need to nerf it all around. There's more to think about when you balance a game. Can't just nerf everything that frustrates killer mains.
-"Can't just nerf everything that frustrates killer mains."
But the reverse is obviously true; anything that annoys survivor mains on a long enough time line gets obliterated (not nerfed).
See : NOED, Spirit, Billy, Pop, Every Gen Regression perk, etc.
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@HeyItsQuiet said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3408024#Comment_3408024
Can I ask why this is even a recommendation in a non-competitive game? Especially when you're well aware that it makes the match miserable for everyone else?
Your directive as killer is to kill. If the way you want to play the game is completely ruined some people will stop playing. This has a noticeable effect on the game when it happens in enough volume.
Some other people will say : well my fun has been ruined and now I will run yours too. These people will have fun by inflicting misery on others. Thankfully overall most people tend to not behave this way most of the time.
Not everyone who is playing their best to win is necessarily trying to make the game miserable. But it's important to consider that it someone trying to inflict misery might actually help achieve a better end if it helps create a fun change for the game.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3409516#Comment_3409516
exhaustion was not invented for the killer to get wallhacks. exhaustion was invented to prevent stacking chase perks on survivor. There are perks to counter exhaustion. they're called mindbreaker and blood echo, but they kinda suck at countering exhausting. Mindbreaker can be exploited by SB users to 95% sprint burst and blood echo requires survivor to be injured. perhaps buff those perks for killer player's like OP and Blueberry that dislike exhaustion.
"exhaustion was not invented for the killer to get wallhacks. exhaustion was invented to prevent stacking chase perks on survivor. There are perks to counter exhaustion. they're called mindbreaker and blood echo, but they kinda suck at countering exhausting"
And that's exactly my point :the perks to counter exhaustion suck. There is no real counter that feels punishing.
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@HoodedWildKard said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3408304#Comment_3408304
Lets also remember that not every surv wants to be chased. Newer/midlevel surv players rely on stealth a lot. Many of my early escapes were more down to my stealth versus my lacklustre ability to run a killer on chase.
Players who want to be chased have an easy time getting up in killer's face and provoking them into chase. Aura reads while exhausted would suck. Admittedly I'd be all for a permanent aura read if you've made a successful DH. And aura reads on anyone exhausted would make fearmonger a really good info perk. But it would most punish the weaker survs who already have a bad time of it. Whilst not really doing anything to experienced survs since they can run good chases regardless.
People need to remember, just because they see high mmr survs when they play killer. Doesn't mean the whole game is like that. Ran a few solo q surv games last night to clear a challenge or two. 5 deaths and 1 survival. Five 4k games and a 2k game. Feels balanced man.
-"Many of my early escapes were more down to my stealth versus my lacklustre ability to run a killer on chase."
This may come as a surprise but there was a time that stealth was stronger than good chase skills. Do you remember when Shelter woods had a 76% kill rate?
Also if people wanted to be stealthy they would never appear "on radar" without an exhaustion perk.
Also it would make sense if killer addons that inflicted exhaustion prevented you from seeing the survivor (because catch 22 mechanics are stupid).
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@MrPeanutbutter said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3408315#Comment_3408315
I play both sides and I strongly disagree. DH and healing just got nerfed. Killer feels a lot more manageable to play now than it used to, especially against solo queue even if they are good. SWF remains ridiculously unbalanced, especially when you throw in broken maps with 1,000 pallets and strong loops that spawn right next to each other. These are problematic with solo q too, but it becomes an unfair game when you throw in the perfect coordinator that SWF on comms have the advantage of
-"Killer feels a lot more manageable to play now than it used to, especially against solo queue even if they are good"
I think you're suffering from the Dunning-Kruger if you're saying this unless you unironically play Nurse/Blight every game.
What did this last patch do? It made me lose all my gen regression. How much time was I getting on average? about 90-120 seconds. I'm playing a "meh" killer that has no movement speed but has good antiloop.
Imagine starting a game of DBD and you can press a button to make the other side go afk for 90 seconds. That's essentially what this patch does to how I have been playing the game for a very long time (since Pop was introduced).
I have three options :
- Stop playing
- Stop playing Killer
- Play stronger Killers.
I refuse to do #3 because I already did that a long time ago and basically said goodbye forever to some of my old timey favorite killers like Billy who if we are honest is just a big joke.
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@Zokenay said:
Yeah, they need to be removed, they've always been a problem, they're still a problem, even after the multiple nerfs they've gotten.
Arguably worse now that Gen Regression took quite a hit, this addon is a product of its time, aka when balance didnt even existed, it doesnt belong in the game anymore.
+1
Make toolboxes sabotage only and retire the BNP. Moris do basically nothing but the BNP is way too strong.
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@MrPeanutbutter said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/373380/swf-is-killing-this-game
BHVR knows that if they do anything to nerf SWF that it will kill the game. A lot of people play SWF because they enjoy playing with friends and it’s a lot easier to win or even bully the killer for laughs in some cases. If that consistent fun is diminished, a lot of SWF players will leave the game.
-"BHVR knows that if they do anything to nerf SWF that it will kill the game"
But what happens if nobody wants to play killer? This is probably the worst I have ever seen the game in terms of "fun to play" as killer.
Things were bad in 2016 but we had NOED which for at least a while was the complete equalizer because it lasted forever.
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@Triforcer said:
Since this patch increased the misery of both gens flying and camping/tunneling, here is what we will see:
- Corrupt Intervention (90 second version) base kit
- Lethal pursuer (minus enhancement to other aura reading perks) basekit. Survs will complain this makes Distortion mandatory.
- Deadlock gutted
- Jolt gutted
- PR dialed back to 15 percent (or maybe 20)
- OTR base kit, and if you are hit in first 10 seconds off hook (triggering BT) OTR stays on.
- DS goes to 5 seconds
- BNP gutted
- Toolboxes nerfed in both speed and duration
- Prove thyself and resilience gutted
You don't use Corrupt and Lethal as they have the same base effect. You know where the cluster of players is with either perk.
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@HoodedWildKard said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3408008#Comment_3408008
"Almost always" hardly. And it benefits only IF you can trigger it successfully which is easier said than done. not the guaranteed trigger people keep saying it is. And it isn't like killers can't hard counter DH, legion, deathslinger, trapper. These are just the ones that have hard counters to DH in their basekit.
Any addon/perk that causes exhaustion can nix a potential DH play. The only time you can make it a guaranteed trigger is at a pallet. And even then killer can hold back and all you've done is gained the time you would from a pallet. In any other situation DH is counterable by simply not swing at the first available instant. It's a mind game, just requires skill to counter.
It's punishing if you swing into it for sure. But it's definitely avoidable and counterable whether you use straight up mechanical counters or simply skilled gameplay.
P.s. the perk idea sounds kinda interesting, but constant aura read on an exhausted surv would be absolutely cracked. Perhaps a 5 sec aura read when surv becomes exhausted.
-"but constant aura read on an exhausted surv would be absolutely cracked."
Remember for a minute that survivors want to be chased. A perk like that might sound horrible but it would encourage people to be chased.
I'd say sure 10 seconds of vision for Nurse/Blight but everyone else would be fine with if you are exhausted then you are visible (with an exception list - Oni for example would only get 10 seconds if in his power, same for MM, etc.)
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@KenwanObinobi said:
First of all, my MMR is not inflated, it is the MMR the game put me at, even with Wesker that i have just bought, after winning some games i'm now facing strong loopers games after games.
I cannot win a single one, i'm in a huge loose streak since the patch (just some garbage win here and there tunneling) but playing as usual, withotu tunneling, i cannot win.
Even 3 gens do not last long enough.
As always, the side that can abuse broken things use them and now all lobbies are full of BNP, toolboxes with addons, Resilience and Prove Thyself.
Every killers beside nurse and blight cannot do anything now against good players.
Not mentionning the base kit BT/SB that is now way too strong in the current META.
The killer cannot do anything :
- gen regression ? doesn't work
- slug ? doesn't work
- 3 gens ? doesn't work
- tunneling ? sometimes work
Honestly what the hell is this patch ?
You can play to tie. Force one stage two then tunnel them. Then face camp the second player.
This makes everyone not have fun.
It's so stupid that we lost the ability to 3 gen just because the Skull Merchant was completely broken with kick perks.
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@Dennis1242 said:
I mean even if I play survivor I feel so bad for the killer. I encountered a lot of good killer players that couldn't really do much due to the gens flying. Even when I play killer. I can play with the best killers, 4 gen perks and still get genrushed. The survivors don't even bring toolboxes with brand new parts or hyperfocus but I can't stay in a chase for more than 20 seconds without a gen being done. I played a few matches recently with some of the weakest killers and some of the best and I tried to play fairly, like I didn't tunnel, I didn't camp and in almost every match I get t-bagged at the exit gates and genrushed. Did I miss something? And when I play survivor I get facecamped even tho I didn't rush the gens and I was more of a chase survivor. What is the point of playing killer if the match lasts only a few minutes and what's the point of playing survivor if I get facecamped and tunneled? Now, i'm sure the devs know that this is happening and if they want to do something about this they gotta be fast because the dbd player count is dropping. Maybe a licensed chapter will solve the problem but only temporarily. The best solution for this is make so that gens can be done only after finding some kind of gen parts and the endurance effect after hook to be like the effect of mettle of man, last longer and to not have collision with the killer. I really don't like this "genrush and camp" meta and I hope things will change in the future. I really enjoy dbd and I want things to get better.
Here's the thing : you don't.
You either stop playing killer, stop playing DBD, or play stronger killers that can lose the gen regression perks and still be fine.
Before the last patch I was making survivors do about 1-2 extra gens worth of repairs per game. That number is now closer to zero.
I can't defend generators but I can defend hooks.
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@Ἥφαιστος said:
Why isn't Valve dealing with review exploitation? They should legitimately be banned from Steam for review bombing Dead by Daylight. Absolutely disgusting.
Voting against change is exactly what the system is for.
It makes other people think carefully if they want to buy this product. If the devs revert bad changes then I will remove my negative reviews.
I posted negative reviews on all the DLCs I own that I feel were changed in an unfair way or a way that made me regret the purchase. I've had a negative review for DBD for at least 6 years now.
Michael Myers got ruined 1-2 weeks after release so that review was deserved.
Spirit has been completely nuked by the directional phasing nerf - also deserved.
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@HoodedWildKard said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3407025#Comment_3407025
When you say "fine" against nurse and blight you mean "useless". Distance doesn't really matter against those killers. This is kind of my point. Killer mains are fine with perks that do not work well against them. But the second there is a perk that directly counters their power/build they are up in arms and it's apparently unfair.
Some killers have DH counter in their base kit, some don't.
No the issue has always been that a perk like Sprint Burst saves you a moment against a nurse. You force one blink to miss and then she blinks twice and is right on you again. In most situations you are better off having Sprint Burst vs not against a nurse as the perk will give you a little bit more time in any situation.
But what does it do against a Huntress? If she doesn't know you have it and maybe swings you can use that exhaustion perk to get to an obstacle where it becomes not worth the time to chase you. That's really not fair (yes this is a map design issue as well but we can focus on the exhaustion problem).
The problem with DH is that it almost always saves TONS of time for your team no matter what killer you play.
As I said before : exhaustion would be fine if there was a counter perk that penalized a team of survivors while they were exhausted. As an example : the killer has a perk maybe called despair that reveals your aura to the killer if you are exhausted. Don't want to be seen? Don't run an exhaustion perk.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3407241#Comment_3407241
I know but it's likely the closest thing to a QoL improvement Billy is going to get. Removing overheat would be the best option and I stated douzens of times how I didn't like that this actually made him stronger at camping because it contradicts overheat's existence in the first place. However, being in chase and not having to worry about overheat feels good, there's no denying that.
-"it's likely the closest thing to a QoL improvement Billy is going to get"
Sorry but I fundamentally disagree.
Until it has been proven otherwise I suspect that Hillbilly was nerfed because for a very long time the best two killers were free. Why would players buy other killer models that were inferior? Dave at one point suggested that DLC killers were "pay to lose".
I think marketing said no we can't have that and that is why LF got massive buffs and Billy got nerfed into the ground.
@[Deleted User] said:
I still don't think he's playable without map offerings. It's a complete waste of time to play Billy without one, because there are so many maps where he basically doesn't have a power. I just went Lerys/RPD back to back and closed the game. A couple days ago I went Garden of Joy/RPD/Midwich/Badham/RPD in some order. This game is OBSESSED with giving you RPD. It makes Billy an expensive killer to play if you care about having fun. You need a combo of his 3 good add ons against good players (engravings/Lo Pro) and a map offering to avoid fun-vampire maps.
-"I still don't think he's playable without map offerings."
Most of the killers (especially the M1s) fail on most of the maps in the game. This is because Nurse and Blight are on a completely different level and they need maps to challenge the best players.
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@Xernoton said:
The overheat changes are good. However, some things felt a bit wrong over the last days. Like some pallets that I just couldn't break with the chainsaw or objects that I couldn't see (even with Shadowborn) stopping the sprint.
These overheat changes are not good.
How about we have : no overhead unless you are within 16m of a hook where someone is hooked?
The devs told us that overheat was added to prevent people from using the saw to guard unhooks so that would prevent such a scenario.
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Billy has been dead a very long time.
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@HoodedWildKard said:
You mean killers will always complain about exhaustion perks. Just whatever causes them the most frustration in a game rather than if it's actually unbalanced or not.
Survs need something that helps in chase. And exhaustion perks are always going to be used. Wouldn't be much of a game otherwise.
If all exhaustion perks get nerfed into oblivion then killers would complain about genrush and stealth builds.
Exhaustion perks are fine vs Nurse and Blight but they have always been quite punishing to the killers like Trapper and Wraith who are completely turned off when a survivor drops a pallet in chase.
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@[Deleted User] said:
Recently a friend of mine started streaming DBD. We will occasionally duo together in survivor. She has TTV in her username and I can say anecdotally she definitely gets targeted more in games. Not always outright tunnelling, but it does happen fairly often that it led to me thinking about two issues/questions I’d like to pose the community.
Question 1- should the ability to hook the same survivor twice in a row, without any other survivor being hooked, be taken away from the killer? So you don’t have to go A-B-C-D-A in regards to hooking fairly, but you can’t just go A-A-A.
Question 2- Following on, should a survivor be able to be eliminated from the game without any other survivor being hooked or should some sort of minimum amount of hooks/other game state (number of gens done as an example) be required before a survivor is killed?
Now in the essence of transparency my friend is not the best player. So I’m aware one of the responses to these issues could be “if you don’t want to be tunnelled, git gud”. But there isn’t much incentive or opportunity to get better if you’re tunnelled out in a lot of your games. Also, I know putting TTV in your name (and being live) is like putting a target on your back, but for discussions sake let’s agree this doesn’t warrant being tunnelled.
My own thoughts are that I’ve always been wary of taking away a killer’s agency when it comes to managing hook states and kills. If you force a killer to hook in a certain way, killers could end up losing the game due to being forced to chase very good loopers whilst leaving the weaker ones alone- and weaker loopers can still do gens.
However, I am starting to lean towards the idea that a survivor should not be eliminated by being hooked three times in a row without any other survivors being hooked (or camped from hook one) at any point in the game. I know some people will say “but gens fly, sometimes you have to camp someone or eliminate them to get some momentum”, - I personally don’t agree with this- but I’m aware that I’m not as competitive as some other people when I play killer and that’s fine.
Now if this was made a thing, that a survivor couldn’t be eliminated up until a certain point, I know this would create other issues for the balance of the game. But could it be healthier to balance around such a thing? People have said in the past that killers have been incentivised either through perks or some nerfs on the survivor side to spread hooks but these changes still result in tunnelling. I would suggest that these incentives were never as rewarding as tunnelling so the solution is to remove the possibility of tunnelling entirely and then give incentives around that.
But I’m just spitballing here. I want to hear the community’s thoughts.
-"Question 1- should the ability to hook the same survivor twice in a row, without any other survivor being hooked, be taken away from the killer? So you don’t have to go A-B-C-D-A in regards to hooking fairly, but you can’t just go A-A-A."
Are you aware that the killer's objective is longer than the survivor objective? In other words it's far easier to finish 5 generators before the killer has 6 hooks on 2 different players. Most people want the killer to do 2 hooks on everyone before there are 3 hooks on anyone. The problem is that in order to do this we would need to make generators longer and remove all the gen rush perks.
You can point to content creator XYZ and say well this person does not tunnel so what's the problem? I guarantee you if we get 5 content creators who can all play well on both killer and survivor you will find that the killer will regularly get stomped with 3-4 escapes.
Why does this happen? DBD is not a competitive game. As an example : Doctor has lesser maximum abilities than Nurse/Blight and the difference is massive but they are treated equally by the game. A more balanced system would say Doctor you kinda suck so you get +2 perks.
I have a Question for you :
What penalty do the survivors get if they finish a generator and there are no hooks? Do all generators immediately get blocked?
You didn't think that far ahead did you?
"should a survivor be able to be eliminated from the game without any other survivor being hooked or should some sort of minimum amount of hooks/other game state (number of gens done as an example) be required before a survivor is killed?"
I'll answer your questions in a way to make you realize that what you asked is not well thought out.
I'll stop tunneling survivors the second that the survivor team I play against must always get every generator to 33% progress before any generator can get to 66% progress. And before any generator can get to 99% progress all generators must reach 66% progress.
Since survivors are unwilling to abide by my unreasonable demands I will tunnel them out.
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@Gamedozer7 said:
I've been saying it forever people don't realize how strong SB Is it stops a chase from happening and if the killer commits then your in a good spot because you SB to a favorable loop.
I never really used DH ivr always been an SB user.
This is going to come as a surprise but SB has been a meta perk since 2016. As time moved on we got more exhaustion perks but it has ALWAYS created distance where none existed.
@smartemarte said:
so are you going to nerf sprint burst?
Instead of an ability that could only be used when injured, had to be timed perfectly, half of the time didn't work because of the server lag even if you timed it correctly everyone I come up against now is just using sprint burst....
which literally can't be countered, is 100% guaranteed to work, requires 0 skill and has no draw backs.... I really struggle to understand why you changed dead hard to only work when being tunnelled because it's that unreliable that you just wouldn't pick it now over DS, Off the record etc.
I'd much go up against a survivor with DH and wait 0.5 seconds to bait it out like any good killer would instead of complaining it was overpowered...
like wise when I play survivor now I enjoyed using dead hard because it was extremely situational against a GOOD killer that didn't bait it out, now I have to wait until i'm hooked to get it for my second state so instead i'll just use one of the boring exhaust perks that are guaranteed to work from the match starting ....
Dead hard made you think about when you would use it where as the other exhaust perks are just switch your brain off dull.
Maybe it's time to make all exhaustion perks reset only by being unhooked or unhooking someone. We could have all the exhaustion perks except DH be "loaded" on game start so that you get to use them immediately.
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@Crowman said:
Dead Hard and CoH are hardly dead perks. Dead Hard is just as strong as before, just limited. CoH massively buffs healing speeds on other survivors.
Whereas CoB and Overcharge got hard nerfs with no real upside to them.
It's definitely not killers the one getting pampered.
CoH is actually still very good. The problem is that many survivors got used to a super broken version and nothing else will appease them.
With this patch killers lost the ability to increase survivor objective times through gen regression. This is a problem because the survivor objective was already faster than the killer objective.
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@[Deleted User] said:
You can memorize spawn points on every map and get 75% of Lethal value with game sense. You can't replace Corrupt in the same way.
You're right and you're wrong.
Sometimes there is a very low chance a survivor spawns relatively close to you on a "3 gen map". If you don't check that place or if they hide from you in a smart way then they likely just broke your 3 gen setup.
If you go back and watch Otz's first video about why lethal is a good perk Im pretty sure he goes over it.
@H2H said:
The only thing corrupt is good for is wasting a perk slot.
Corrupt became kinda useless with the 6.1 nerf unless you are playing MM or trapper - who let's be honest both severely need a rework so they don't suffer tremendously for the first 2 minutes of the game.
@Skill_issue said:
i have started to use lethal over corrupt with almost every killer (except trapper/hag) yes i even use it with skull merchant
you can start a chase immediately at the start of the round (which is what corrupt does as well but you know exactly where to go)
lethal pursuer has better synergy with perks and addons that show aura (nowhere to hide, gearhead, and bbq especially) whereas corrupt is gone after the first down or 2 minutes
corrupt disables after the first down (which in reality should be after the first hook) while lethal continues to give value throughout the round depending on your build
with 3 gening become harder to manage it is more important to go for chases when possible which lethal does
am i missing any good reasons to use corrupt over lethal? what are your thoughts?
-"corrupt disables after the first down (which in reality should be after the first hook)"
That would have been a much nicer change for Corrupt but it would just have made the killer slug for the first 2 minutes.
The real crime is that killers very commonly used corrupt in 6.1 because they felt the very real gen rush threat but the devs did not give killers ANY base kit gen protection.
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@KenwanObinobi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3398498#Comment_3398498
Dunno why ppl are still discussing this issue as it is not.
There are two ways to get to the hook, the killer is blocking the short way, preventing a fast save to escape move.
The killer does not block access to the hook as you can go around the map and get access to it.
There are many maps (corn maps come to mind) where you have an obstruction and there is really only 2 ways to grab a survivor. If a survivor comes from the left I can body block a gap left. They have to go around like 8 steps to the far side to go right. I go 3 steps right to block them from that side.
I do this all the time.
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@pseudechis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3405333#Comment_3405333
Well yeah survivor is a team game, you'd expect a coordinated team to do better than a group of solos. Its harder but not impossible. As you keep implying.
Yeah if we cherry pick patches that predominately favor survivors then you could say killers don't get much but, the point being discussed here is your suggestion that killers never get consideration, which historically and currently isn't true. If you are going to say hyperbolic statements like "they never consider how it feels to play killer" then you need something to back that up with and you don't have it because even with recent patches the killer game is still better than the dismal examples you pulled from 7 years ago.
Is it perfect no, is it better than it was yeah, are the recent changes more survivor sided I'd say yeah they were preceded by some pretty good killer changes that you seem hell bent on ignoring.
Forget otz and Tru for a moment and try and have a few ideas about the game of your own. Nothing wrong with with taking in the perspective of others but seriously their opinion carries no more weight than anyone else's.
This isn't some complex topic that takes years of training and study to get an informed insight into, its a game with pretty basic mechanics.
That's the thing about streamers they belong to this really exclusive group called... anybody with an opinion and a camera. We lend them too much weight.
Finally yeah moris do suck now and as I've said before I'm bummed about that. They got changed too hard. BNP's have also been nerfed too not as much as moris have but the point is neither addon allows for a near immediate game ending experience for either side anymore and I think that's what they were trying to remove. Which they did for both just a lil too much for moris in my opinion, in that we are in agreement as I've said.
The rest of your points require me to be an uninformed "survivor main" but the reality is I play a ######### ton more killer than survivor and am mostly being accused of being a biased "killer main" on these forums. Thanks for being the first person to ever call me a survivor main its kinda funny. Guess my opinion has become less biased and more universal over time.
Engaging in tribal identity bias is one reason why a lot of your points lack validity, it renders you incapable of applying an unbiased detached critical assessment of changes, most of the complaining and suggestion posts made on these forums are corrupted by this kind of tribal identity bias often making them very un-objective.
I would propose, if you feel playing killer is as bad as it is... that maybe you aren't as good at killer as you think you are. That's ok neither am I, but its neither unfun nor stressful to play killer and if you are finding so then DBD may not be the game for you at least not the killer role.
"-your suggestion that killers never get consideration, which historically and currently isn't true"
I said we could go line by line from every patch since 2016. Overall survivor has more favorable changes in addition to things that survivors hated getting changed quickly. This is a fact not an opinion.
-"are the recent changes more survivor sided I'd say yeah they were preceded by some pretty good killer changes that you seem hell bent on ignoring."
It sucks playing M1 killlers right now vs efficient people. If I added you to my friends list and had you play vs some pretty casual people on voice coms Im pretty sure we could make every game against you not fun - if we limited you to the really old and bad killers in desperate need of modernization. I could expect you can do the same for me.
The bottom line is that two killers work great because they have a complete kit and the rest do not. There's another thread for killer mains and most people are saying : weaker killers that needed regression are suffering.
-"Is it perfect no, is it better than it was yeah"
DBD is a worse game now than it was before the 6.1 patch. Yes DH sucked to play against but having no ability to contest generators is really stupid.
-"Forget otz and Tru for a moment and try and have a few ideas about the game of your own. Nothing wrong with with taking in the perspective of others but seriously their opinion carries no more weight than anyone else's."
The reason to bring up the industry big names is to remove ourselves from the equation. Maybe you play in a tiny region like Africa that is a meme in terms of difficulty (those were the days lol). Maybe you play at 4am due to work hours and your games are an outlier because you never play vs swfs. Maybe you only play Nurse and Blight and really dont "see what all the fuss is about". One of my friends who plays killer tanks his MMR to get easier games and often lets people go to prevent MMR gains; that's not going to be "normal" play either.
I have my own opinions about the game. I noticed that Sprint Burst has been a meta perk since 2016 for creating distance where none exists and as a result makes chases longer which makes the killer objective longer. Most people say these perks are "fine" and largely speaking I would agree until this patch. Why not make all the exhaustion perks be refreshed by being unhooked or unhooking? We could leave everything except DH in the "charged" category before a game starts. If that's too much we could make a killer perk to punish survivors in the exhausted state. Maybe while exhausted your aura is visible; if that's too much we could do something like while exhausted you repair generators at 50% speed. That would essentially give you time now that you would have to "pay for" later.
What happened net result this patch? Killer objectives got longer if you were using at least one regression perk well. Survivor objectives didn't really change because they still have crazy heal perks and can heal with adrenaline after rushing the gens (which was already meta last patch).
-"Finally yeah moris do suck now"
Why don't BNP suck equally? One is worse than not having it and the other does 25% of a generator. It's almost as if the rules for changing survivor and the rules for changing killer are completely different. What happened to the " DBD is a perfectly fair game rhetoric" you keep shoveling?
"That's the thing about streamers they belong to this really exclusive group"
We can look at all the big streamer players and most of them are very good at the game because nobody really keeps watching a (male) failure of a player no matter how entertaining they are.
Unlike most of the other "bozos with cameras" I think True and Otz know exactly what they are talking about. They are also generally better than most of the other options and on that note : excellence speaks for itself.
I don't agree with most of the ideas of Tofu, Hexy, Bronx (the secret Nemesis main), Hens, Dowsey, Scott Jund (especailly disagree with his ideas), etc.
-"Thanks for being the first person to ever call me a survivor"
I did no such thing and I call your reading comprehension skills into question. Many survivor mains posting as killer mains are saying : this is the greatest time ever to play killer (they said this last patch too). I think in many ways the game right now is horrible and in terms of "unfuness" reminds me of 2016 play in November.
-"I would propose, if you feel playing killer is as bad as it is... that maybe you aren't as good at killer as you think you are"
Let's talk about a different game for a minute. The name of the game doesn't matter. In mystery game X I was one of the top 2% of players looking at statistics. They changed the game mechanics over the years to make sure people like me don't exist anymore. If you have a "free to play" where people can win more than their share and actually "play for free" the model breaks. People really didn't like when you had "ace" players that could eliminate somewhere around 40-60% of the enemy team by themselves. After many many years of repeated nerfs to the style of play that made me nearly untouchable I would just be "average" if I started playing again. Therefore I choose not to play.
Someone like you is likey to say : maybe it was all luck and you were never really great to begin with. I have a very deep understanding of DBD and I play the game well. My kill rate was verified by one of the steam mods to be higher than Zubat's "back in the day".
I dont want to play Nurse/Blight because I view them as the extreme easy mode killers. Once you get over the learning curve you have the potential to stomp anyone no matter what. Let's take the #1 nurse main streamer and make them play Doctor. Let's schedule them some games with Hen's survivor team and see how that goes. If the nurse main gets floored does that mean they suck at DBD? No - it means their skill is neutralized when the parameters of the game change. That is what has happened to me with this patch.
No matter how lightly you want to word it this is the old trick of : you're not good at the game and therefore your opinion has no meaning. Shame on you.
At its core DBD is a time race game. Side A races to complete generators while Side B races to get kills (since defending generator is just "out" with this patch). Side A has a shorter objective than Side B when we look at "maximum possible" skill levels (if for example we could make pixel perfect AI play each other. This would be incredibly interesting btw because we could see the AI send each other messages in Norse code via hooks/ducks/points/waves and all kinds of nonsense people could never do).
I would propose that the removal of the ability to increase the survivor objective timer in a meaningful way (as a result of gen regression getting a 75% nerf) has shifted the time clock to be slightly too fast for the killers I enjoy playing.
After having played for 6 years I really don't think I will find a "eureka" moment where I get better to overcome the time changes. I already watch plenty of streamers who generally speaking have nothing left to teach me except for nuance tricks for killers I do not play (my watch time is roughtly equal if not higher than my play time). The solutions then become:
- Stop playing
- Stop playing Killer
- Play better Killers
None of these options feels great but I will pick option #1 or #2 before I pick option #3.
All I've ever wanted was a fair game. But to be blunt DBD has never tried to achieve that goal. The developer Dave gave us a quote from either 2016 or 2017 where he said something along the lines of : We enjoy that the game is unfair.
Most of the recent changes since 6.1 feel like a push to make the game feel good to casual players. MMR is hated by most people who are good at the game. I can say with certainty that noobs are far less likely to get stomped by veteran killers now than on the previous "rank reset days" we had before MMR was introduced.
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@jamally093 said:
I get there's the strategic camping you know a survivor is near by so you sorta stay near the hook your moving around ready to attack. Then there's camping just sitting there not moving all match. BHVR wanted to prevent slugging by making Unbreakable base-kit it flopped because of the finishing mori well try testing something that removes camping and not the good kind like I don't know if the killer stands still infront of a hook for more then a minute or something they I don't can't use their power or just something that forces the killer to move and actually do something that isn't standing there. Camping is boring as survivor because of the fact your not doing anything still useful since your wasting the killer's time at least but still boring and I seriously don't get why killers do it in the first place.
What did the last patch do? It nerfed generator regression peks by ~75% and did not adjust gen rush perks.
I can't guard the generators anymore so I have to guard hooks.
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@KhrisCo said:
The gen rush is worse now. Everyone is bringing brand new parts and prove thyself, and resilience. Prove thyself needs to be nerfed badly. Med kits should have been left alone. COH was the right move though.
Three gens are done in 5 mins if not less now. I'm lucky to get one kill, and in order to get that kill I've had to tunnel. I mean hard tunnel someone non stop til they're dead. I don't want to do this, but it seems the only strategy. I'm also being brought to very survivor friendly maps. I mean most are survivor friendly, but Garden of Joy and Eyrie of Crows over and over.
-"The gen rush is worse now."
They nerfed gen regression perks by 75% instead of fixing the two killers that abuse them : Knight/Skull merchant. Meanwhile gen rush perks were not nerfed by 75% so it does not take a genius to figure out what was going to happen.
Solution : Nerf gen rush perks by 75% and watch nobody use them ever. Nerf Toolboxes to be sabotage only - retire BNP.
@tyantlmumagjiaonuha said:
Knight,shape,dredge are terrible.No way to counter Gen Rush.
Only Nurse and Blight were fun to play with the original configuration without Gen regression.
-"Only Nurse and Blight were fun to play with the original configuration without Gen regression."
Only Nurse and Blight can make a 3 gen out of any gens on any map because they move so damn fast. They also hard couunter Shift+W and have strong antiloop.
These are the only two killers in the game with a "complete" base kit.
Quick fix solution: Killers without movement powers do not play maps larger than 9000m² unless they use an offering to go to a map that is larger (example : you use a heart locket and automatically go to Abattoir as it is the only map in the tileset of the correct size; if you use a Strode realty key you will go to Haddonfield because YOU picked a large map).
@mustdogen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/373033/killers-how-its-going
Still have lots of COH, fewer DH
Overcharge is completely useless now if survivor can hit skill check, but it just like the very old vision so I guess it's ok?
My first thought is to try hit and run killer.
But i found out that the cob and Overcharge nerf hurt hit and run style very much too.
The medkit nerf is far from enough to cover it.
But when i back to tunnel style,the PR nerf cause you have less pressure in the early game.
I don't know what to say.
Tunnel ,3 gen ,hit and run, playing normal without any strategy seems all unviable now.
Should I try slug next?
But slug never really viable by itself either.
TBH i have no idea how to play killer now.
So i play more survivor and try to find the solution,wish that the killer can give me an example about how to play killer right now.
But until now all of the killer i play against can't stop 4 gens done in 5 minutes.
And by the way, the medkit nerf really feel like untouched, the 8 second healing is really overkill, after the nerfed it's still fast enough.
"My first thought is to try hit and run killer."
"But i found out that the cob and Overcharge nerf hurt hit and run style very much too."
"The medkit nerf is far from enough to cover it."
"Tunnel ,3 gen ,hit and run, playing normal without any strategy seems all unviable now."
All of this is very true. How do you address this as a player?
Player Solution : don't play weak killers. I know it sucks but just stop. Your killer of choice needs at least 2/3 following characteristics:
- Strong Anti loop
- Movent power
- Instant down or ability to get rapid hits (STBFL users can qualify) or double hits.
- 4v1 capability OR built in slowdown mechanic (something like pig traps)
What are some killers that fit in this category : PH, PnH, Nemesis, Wesker, Demo, Oni, Spirit (with good addons), LF (Purple+Green addon only), Legion (Iri button).
What works this patch? Ignore the generators completely. You can't guard them. Know what you can guard? Hooks. Find one player and tunnel them. Try to injure other players with chases not too far away from the hook. If they do not rescue quickly then force stage two on that first survivor. Proxy chase around and wait for the unhook and then delete the first player.
When possible Slug players with no hook states unless a hook is immediately nearby. If you can get a kill however do not let that go instead of hooking someone for the first time.
This patch is all about the camping and tunneling. That works great still. Remember that 2 kills is a tie - at least you didn't lose.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3404508#Comment_3404508
Nope. I am fine the way it is. Just address 3gens that literally have all 3 of them within circle with 10m radius and the game is good. We don't need all the old busted things that were in game (and survivors had a lot more of those BTW).
It's actually your argument that "it was always in game, so it's fine the way it is". There were busted things in game. Now they are not. So busted 3gens are also not OK (so long as we don't bring back busted counters for that)
Three gens are what make it possible to play old killers. Remove them and you'll see more games where there are only Blight/Nurse left.
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@MonsterDilf said:
I took a break from survivor to nuke on Ghostface, and was averaging 4k for about 7 games in a row.
Decided to hop back on since the update, and EVERY round has consisted of Face-camping to the point it is obscene. Players were running BUBBAH and I gotta admit, unless you're running bully squad, survivor is just exhausting.
Artist? Proxy camped continuously, face camped first hook
Bubbah? Face camped each player
Legion? For some reason, face camped the first hook
Huntress? They hook camp every game, usually with iri because bad mmr and desperation
Watching a streamer RIGHT now, and they've been proxy/face camped for 2 games in a row. Tunneling is whatever, but jeez dude. When I run GF, I just can't commit to camping a hook or tunneling: I don't know why this is so hard.
It's very simple cause and effect.
Last patch killers had tools where they could regress generators with things like Pain Res, Overcharge and CoB. Those perks do almost nothing compared to what they did before but 75% nerfs will do that.
I removed every single build regression perk in my builds. I replaced them with other perks that potentially could save me time elsewhere. But since I can't guard generators I need to guard something else. Instead now I guard hooks.
Before sure I was mostly hard tunneling but now I'm adding hard camping because there is little point in trying to stop generators. Spread some damage and then proxy camp until someone dies.
I don't want to play the game this way but that's what DBD has devolved into. As a reminder : we had a very healthy chase meta with Pop when it took 20% off a generator regardless of its progress. Then we went to a meta where kicking was more important than chasing. Now we're at a point where I don't even touch the generators most of the time.
I don't play a killer with fast movement so if someone holds shift+W I am powerless. I could waste lots of time chasing them or I could just do what the most successful predators in nature do : you wait for the prey to come to you.
The worst part is that I played in a SWF today with a collective hour count close to 15k or more and we lost several games when the killer just camped someone out.
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@Nerfnurseplz said:
With a very low skill ceiling with maximum reward for doing nothing since the changes nurse is unbearable to play against people can say otherwise but she really is even people like hens are complaining about it and I’ve for sure seen a lot more nurses The nurse is a very poorly designed killer that negates any sort of recourse a survivor has other than luck you go one way she goes the other break line of sight and hope she does not blink on top of you but with 2-3 blinks it’s very easy my solo queue team will give up all the time but ya know devs dead hard was the problem and I agree with healing but honestly you take away a good recourse it’s one of the only ways to stop a nurse from sniping you out of the game same with spirit blight ect these killers just feel unbearable camping and tunnelling is more rampant than ever so is Gen rushing do you not get you are killing you are killing the game for solo survivors or do you just not care and want to appease who ever cries the loudest cause guess what killer mains are already asking for more nerfs and complaining just why add killers that literally break all physics of the game if you are gonna try to “balance” it the whole reason dbd was fun was because it was a goofy party game with lots of cheese moments now it just feels like a sweat fest
I'm not going to take the time/effort to do so but I could make a copy pasta repost of your grips and replace Nurse with SWF.
Nurse/Blight and SWF are the most broken things in this game. All three need to get nerfed or every other killer needs to get buffed so they can deal with SWF (or the impossible option : only Nurse/Blight play against SWF).
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@Rudjohns said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3404616#Comment_3404616
People do that
Nobody is forced to use voice chat to play the game
People did that in 2016 on release. It's extremely difficult to do that now unless you turn off cross platform.
@Rudjohns said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3404985#Comment_3404985
If you balance around SWF than you kill solo queue
And solo is like 80% of the playerbase
Game will be dead
There are 10 survivors for every killer instead of 4 survivors for every 1 killer. We know this b/c right before 6.1 people were pinging the DBD server to gather data.
I remember when they posted these but you can be sure almost everyone who keeps playing this game plays more often in a SWF now than they did then because the game feels worse.
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@pseudechis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3404613#Comment_3404613
"So you admit it ruins the game - interesting." um no, you made the point that if everyone played as you described it would ruin the game, not everyone plays as you describe and if it requires everyone to play that way then its not as bad as you think because most people don't play that coordinated, which is my point. Similar to SWF in DBD not every game is against highly coordinated SWF teams but you'd swear it was the way people go on about it. I'm sorry you missed the point here.
You can't reject that definition its your definition not mine.
"Body blocking is not fun for the killer when the survivors do it to the killer. Nor is body blocking fun for the survivor when they do it to a survivor and get a free instant down as a result.
The definition of fair play is when you use an ability and it's fun to be the user as well as having that ability used on you."
You then give examples of how its not worth playing if its unfair and not winnable so to reiterate, your point hangs on the fact that "you define fair as being tools that are fun for the opponent and define fun as being the ability to win" This isn't my definition this is the basis for the points you've made in your examples and why you feel they are unfair or unfun. So if you reject this premise I'm not sure what your point is then because your point kinda requires this to be the case for its coherency.
I don't really have an answer beyond that if you re-read what you've written it all falls apart if you reject the aforementioned statement. Its kinda hard to make a counter point to someone who's already countering their own point. So I'll leave that one.
As for MWO, its a little apple and oranges. A 100 ton Atlas crunching into a 20-35 ton scout mech will knock it down and its great, but the scout mech has a maneuverability that should make it really hard to get that knockdown. That's the trade off, its not fair to match an assault mech against a scout mech but the scout mech has tools to deal with that making it a very effective hunter of assault mechs.
In the right hands that scout mech mech can kill that Atlas via a death of 1000 cuts making this incredibly one sided and unfair match up on paper a much more interesting and varied experience in reality. The simple key is to move quick enough to not get knocked down which the scout mech can realistically do.
The differences in survivor/killer maneuvering in DBD aren't really equivalent to the differences in light/assault mech example. For the example to be valid it requires them to be equivalent that's why it doesn't work.
Its not hard to bump into a survivor even mid chase so the ability to knock a survivor down would need a big increase in survivor maneuverability to counter this very easy to achieve chase ending bump. What's interesting is you attribute a mechanic like that as fun but then dislike collision as unfun without any real basis for the distinction.
"You are also asking the wrong question. What game design elements make Blocking unfun/unfair?
I find it hilarious that the only time it's not ok to body block is when you hold someone hostage by pinning them in place."
I never said the only time its not ok is when pinning people in place, but its what makes the OP's example not ok and that's all they have given as basis for their question, that one example.
So lets, as you suggest, expand on the OP's narrow scenario beyond the singular example given where the problem is clearly map design not body blocking.
You claim there is no cost for body blocking, it costs a health state, as killer you have this big weapon in your hand which you can use to swing at body blocking survivors. If this scenario is stopping you from hooking people then you need to plan your hooks better. You don't need to bring anything more than that to counter body blocking.
There are perks to make it easier to counter but they aren't needed with a bit of game sense. Your basement stairs example, I wouldn't have picked up a survivor with a bunch of others around to block, and I probably wouldn't try for the basement with a crew of survivors that were lining up to block me. But I'd in close so that my chances of getting into the basement were better the next down and direct my gameplay toward the basement rather than away from it if that was my plan.
"To make a very long sidestory short (way to late for that but lets soldier on) - If touching a killer knocked you down and stopped all motion for 1 second that would be a stiff punishment. You could still prevent a hit possibly but it would come at a cost." Explain to me the mechanics of not getting hit if stuck on the ground for 1 second? This makes no sense whatsoever. How is this not more extreme than the body blocking we have now?
A more severe penalty might be : touching the killer or moving through his space makes you exposed for 10 seconds (note this is different than the killer touching you). This is even more extreme for something as simple as collision and is pretty unbalanced and unfair within the context of DBD.
You can't rail against things you think unfair but then offer up just as unbalanced mechanics as counters or alternatives.
See how long we needed to get to an example with no extremes? The extremes are a shortcut to make the point cleanly and quickly."
No they didn't because you are still proposing really lopsided mechanics as equivalent to body blocking. You could have proposed these prior to your first "extreme" example of nuking your opponents in an FPS, (which makes no sense and clearly is a terrible idea that doesn't serve any purpose for your point or mine but lets not go back to it).
Even after all this exchange it still appears that you point is... it seems your dislike of body blocking isn't about fairness its about annoyance that you can't counter it well and feel its unfair. I've said this before and haven't changed that opinion based on what you've countered with.
-"Similar to SWF in DBD not every game is against highly coordinated SWF teams but you'd swear it was the way people go on about it."
Every game is not a comp squad but even games with 2x 2 man swfs are far more difficult than 4 solo players.
-"You do accept that things have more recently been changed to the positive of the killer player which kinda blows away your "they never consider how it feels to play killer" comment."
I absolutely do not agree. This patch is way easier to play survivor than it is killer- like most patches. This patch made it impossible to defend generators so I expect more people to move to defending hooks.
-"I play trapper and Myers and have a great time, they are hardly "S tier" as people put it. "
Almost everybody I know who is a survivor main says they have a fun time playing killer. Almost everyone I know who is a highly skilled killer main regularly takes breaks from the game because this game is very stressful and often not fun.
-"you say stop being a parrot but you keep continuing to make the same mistake every post."
So are you accepting it's not fun when you play vs a comp squad and get absolutely dusted?
-"Otz can play however he wants to play to maintain his streak its not an indicator of poor game health"
Many people use Otz as the "wholesome" example of a killer main. He does look wholesome compared to say CMWinter but that's a different story. Truetalent understands the game very well and advocated we move the game for chases not hooks. Patrick pushed the game in a different direction and most people hate the result. Like him or not he has excellent game knowledge and pushed for good changes for the game.
-"not a really a fact but they do do less than what they did"
If we compare a pink mori in 2016 to a pink mori in 2023 how effective is one compared to the other? The original effect does not compare and offers a negative advantage to hooking as the animation takes longer.
If we compare 4x BNP in 2016 to 2023 we went from a 100% effect to a 25% effect.
There is no way you can spin these factsThis is a clear example of one side's tools got obliterated and one side did not. You are in some crazy denial mode when presented with undeniable facts.
-"Patch 6.1 was a pretty big buff and QOL change for killers"
That's the rhetoric of survivor mains.
Killer got weaker against SWF and stonger against solos. And then they gave solos HuD info including gen/healing percentages.
There's an old quote from one of the devs where the plan was :
- Make solo survivor closer to SWF (they did that).
- Buff Killer - they haven't done that yet.
-"But to claim that survivors get it all and killers get nothing really isn't that accurate."
Survivors get softer and more favorable adjustments than killers. This is a true factual statement that we could go line by line for every patch since 2016.
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@Mooks said:
Contact support, they are able to look into your account and give it back to you;
I was looking over my account to see if anything else was missing and when I came back to survivor after looking at killers my jake had his old face again.
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@pseudechis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3404552#Comment_3404552
Oh man your bias is showing.
A lot of this is unsubstantiated opinion being touted as fact, that's a really bad way to make a point.
Yeah change has been slow but generally killer play has seen marked improvement, its lot easier to play killer than it has been previously.
To dismiss those improvements is just not accurate.
I'll say one point where our opinion does align is, I dislike the mori changes too, moris made the game fun and exciting. Even a mediocre killer with a mori was something to be feared. Its sad to see it go.
Lets take a more holistic view of the mori change though, if you queue for 10 mins to be eliminated in under 2 mins that's a problem. It did need some changing, just a shame to see it completely gutted the way they have. I thought the initial change of mori after first hook was fine, I can accept how mori on death hook is more balanced though so its also a good change anything further than that is just crap in my opinion.
"the role of killer in DBD has been kept 1 step from miserable for a very long time." This kinda is hyperbole, can't you see that this is just opinion and while it perfectly valid, it only applies to you because that's how opinion works. So the solution to this starts with you figuring out why killer is miserable for you and how you might improve to make it better.
There are many many players who don't find killer miserable to play and do pretty well with it, myself included.
-"A lot of this is unsubstantiated opinion being touted as fact"
Did you play in 2016? It was a complete joke. Look at the old killer vs survivor vault times and infinite windows. The only way we killed people reliably was NOED and the fact that ~15-20% of players tried to escape the hook in stage one so they immediately went to stage two
Killer didn't get better really until bloodlust was added much much later. And then it was nerfed and DH got added.
DS HD Unbreakable and BT reigned supreme for like 3 years.
What did killer have that was fun?
Billy was cool and they neutered him.
-"To dismiss those improvements is just not accurate."
Things got better and things got worse. The stun mechanic in 2016 was way more fair than 2023 (by the way the pallet hit size box for the stun has been increased twice AND the delay for the stun effect was removed very early on in 2016 or 2017).
DS needed multiple nerfs to make the perk still have a strong chance of giving you an escape from tunneling. It only took 1 nerf to NOED to make me never want to use it ever again (I forgot I had an old challenge so I had to do the 2023 version).
Killer is fine - if you're playing the S tier killer at the time with meta perks. If I put you up against 10 comp squads in an "anything goes" format where I pick a weak killer for you to play you will be miserable.
-"There are many many players who don't find killer miserable"
Did I say killer is miserable? I said it one step away; if killer is super fun and awesome why is there a 1:10 ratio of killer to survivors instead of a 1:4 ratio? We know that's the data statistic before the 6.1 update when killer was actually way better off than it is right now.
Let's look at the two big names in DBD streamers. Otz is the 10k hour guy who will camp, slug and tunnel to preserve his win streak or challenge. Otz is supposed to be the poster boy "nice guy" so that tells you DBD is in a bad spot.
Truetalent is a 9k hour player who gets frustrated by the game balance all the time and tries not to talk about it on stream (because he regularly plays far more difficult people than Otz).
-"Lets take a more holistic view of the mori change"
No how about we look at the factual evidence. Killer Moris do nothing and BNP's are still wickedly powerful. That's the status quo for DBD balance where killer gets obliterated and survivor gets a slap on the wrist.