DBDVulture
DBDVulture
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
Honestly, I feel really indifferent about it (kinda, I mean I like the update, but a lot of the changes do not affect me particularly), other than having the Visual Terror Radius to help (I have hearing impairments) every change just seems pretty alright, obviously the update just released, so these are just "first impressions".
But overall, I really cannot be mad this with update. I never really ran slowdown too much so it barely affects me AND the healing/meta changes for Survivor do not affect me either.
And a lot of my matches have been fun for Killer and Survivor, I know some people have been throwing tantrums and DCing because of the changes, but even with it the DCs I still had a lot of fun.
Good job BHVR, I personally enjoyed this patch (so far, because again, people are still adjusting to the changes). 👍️
But how does the community feel about the update? That's obviously why I made this post, youve read the title, so give me your thoughts on the update!
Most of the games I played yesterday were miserable in a 3 man SWF.
The random player usually gave up way too fast or was actively sandbagging.
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@Cryptikk said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/K73UCABMV8ZC/image.png
i really dont think she is that bad personally haha
This killer is probably one of the top 3 least fun to play against.
She is the entire reason that OC/CoB got a 75% nerf. Instead of fixing her they just nuked those perks.
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@Rudjohns said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3404514#Comment_3404514
(Queueing up together is not SWF)
How did you queue up together if not in a SWF lobby?
Did you say in voice coms - 1,2,3 - click as solo players over and over and over until you got in the same lobby?
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@pseudechis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3403657#Comment_3403657
I'm afraid your points are not as strong as you think and neither is your definition of fair play.
Fun doesn't mean fair and vice versa in fact most games a designed to be challenges that are stacked against the player. DBD is asymmetric which creates scenarios that can favor one side over the other this lopsided nature is part of the game design.
Asymmetric games often have lopsided or unfair elements that's what makes them asymmetric and that's actually part of the fun.
Play guaranteeing fun does not mean its fair, in fact the most fun scenarios are often when it falls in your favour rather than being the fair outcome, because fun is so subjective it often blurs what's truly fair.
"imagine a fps shooter where you get a crazy ability for making a kill streak that allows you to kill more people and get even better killstreaks and better rewards. Would it be fun in a Call of Duty match if someone got 30 kills in a row so they could deploy a tactial nuke that deleted anyone in a 50m circle of a painted target? The answer is no." _ Of course no, but you've crafted an example so extreme that the only logical conclusion could be no, this is called "appealing to extremes or reductio absurdum" and is a great fallacy people often commit when trying to legitimize their point if not done properly.
If you have to propose such an extreme example to make your point then your point doesn't stand on its own validity, this is a very common mistake people make when debating.
With that said lets delve into your wider point...
"It needs to be fun to play as Nurse but it needs to be fun when you play against Nurse. Assuming you have a good understanding of DBD this is true for the most part. But for the majority of DBD's lifetime there has been great consideration about what is fun to play as survivor without any consideration for how it feels to the killer." Really? I sincerely doubt that there has been no consideration of killer's fun or how it feels to play killer when making survivor changes, this is another extreme that makes little point.
The DH example is a good one and while changes took a long time, they have been made and DH is in a pretty good spot, its still over-represented though which is why more changes are coming. It doesn't make chases longer for no reason, that's what DH is for to extend chases, that's its purpose.
As for the among us example, coordination between the survivors of any asymmetric survival game always makes it harder for the killer, but it rarely makes it impossible. Among us has some flaws but they can be fixed by improving the subtlety of killing as the imposter. Overcoming coordinated teams in among us is really tough and requires some serious lateral thinking and deception, skills that honestly most people lack. A few extra tools I'd like to see in among us is the ability to force a teams to separate by being able to spread more chaos from greater distance.
"This creates an unfun scenario where you have no chance to win as the imposter when crew members can without a doubt identify other players who have a 0% chance of being the imposter.
"If everyone plays this game in this manner then it becomes a pointless endeavor to play the game at all. If you are the imposter then you will lose so the game is not even worth playing." We've now come full circle to my first point. Among us is still a fun game even when you get the more dull coordinated teams that make it harder to win and to ruin the game entirely it requires everyone to play like this which often isn't the case. Just as not every group of survivors is a coordinated SWF. Remember my point about extremes.
So if you define fair as being tools that are fun for the opponent and define fun as being the ability to win. Then any tool that limits your ability to win could be deemed as unfun and when used in a coordinated fashion deemed unfair. This is just blatantly untrue, and body blocking is a great example. (bringing it back on topic)
Having collision in game opens up all kinds of plays to use it as a tool, which is creative and fun. Both sides can use this tool which is fair, and scenarios where it can be exploited need to be identified and patched out, such as the OP's example of only one door to a hook which can be blocked.
So the OP's question "is body blocking a fair technique?" well not in the specific example they give, but they are asking the wrong question, its not body blocking that's the problem here its the bad map design that allows body blocking to become exploitable.
-"Among us is still a fun game even when you get the more dull coordinated teams that make it harder to win and to ruin the game entirely it requires everyone to play like this which often isn't the case."
So you admit it ruins the game - interesting. But when we consider DBD it's 4 people who usually have each other on their friends list are in a voice call together. That's really easy to coordinate. In other words : it's easily to play survivor in a very scummy way that forces the killer to react in an unfun way. This is basically the last year of DBD content.
-"So if you define fair as being tools that are fun for the opponent and define fun as being the ability to win"
No I'm not accepting this definition either. The one I am using is from a game design article I saw more than 10 years ago. It's not mine and is literally the best definition of fair play I have ever heard.
Is killer fundamentally fun enough? It's probably not when we look at a raw statistics metric considering that most people do not play killer for a significant period of time. Most of the day is 100% killer bonus because not enough people are playing the role. Why on earth do you think that is?
-"If you have to propose such an extreme example to make your point then your point doesn't stand on its own validity, this is a very common mistake people make when debating."
Don't be a parrot.
It's also not as extreme as you think because such a system has existed (in a lesser form) in games and you know what - people hated it. If you make the example of something that already happened easier to explain so that I don't have to give you 3-5 paragraphs about another game then that in my eyes is a smaller crime. But I am fully aware of what you think you are calling me out for.
-"Having collision in game opens up all kinds of plays to use it as a tool, which is creative and fun."
It depends on how the tool is used. Let's look at another game with collisions : Mechwarrior Online. If I'm in an Atlas (100 ton mech) moving at max speed and you're in a Jenner also moving at max speed (35 ton mech) and we have a collision then one of is is getting knocked down. By the way it's not going to be the Atlas.
The collision system in this game was *mostly* fair. If you were moving too fast and hit something you usually fell over leaving you completely vulnerable for enemies to shoot.
One of the gripes everyone had about MWO is that they did not have a kick or punch system. That big Atlas in table top would have gotten a punch as soon as the Jenner got close. The Jenner would not like that any more than you would like to get hit by Mike Tyson. Why was the lack of kicking and punching a problem?
To easily relate this - in DBD you can crouch behind a killer and stop them from moving that way while carrying someone. Were you playing this game when it was possible to block basement stairs while crouching and prevent survivors from being able to be hit or carried to the basement? That was most definitely not "fair play". The survivors could do something that the killer had no way to counter. In a similar note do you remember the old MM map where a killer could just stand above the basement and there was no way to move past him? That was also unfair.
The lack of kicking and punching made getting close to an Atlas have no consequence. In the tabletop you would get mauled by a close combat attack. Since there was no penalty for it people often ran right next to big mechs and prevented them from moving or just moved behind them with impunity. A kick/punch system would have been lore appropriate AND it would have prevented abuse.
Since this game was basically pulled from an existing tabletop game it should have had a kick/punch system. If they had wanted to get really fancy they could have made some grab/throw animations and done some street fighter style cinematics. Did you ever play Street Fighter 2? Essentially the rule was this: if you moved your character to touch the opposing character you should expect to get thrown.
To make a very long sidestory short - If touching a killer knocked you down and stopped all motion for 1 second that would be a stiff punishment. You could still prevent a hit possibly but it would come at a cost. The problem with body blocking right now is that there is literally no cost for it.
A more severe penalty might be : touching the killer or moving through his space makes you exposed for 10 seconds (note this is different than the killer touching you).
See how long we needed to get to an example with no extremes? The extremes are a shortcut to make the point cleanly and quickly.
What's the counter play to body blocking survivors? You needed to "get good" and bring infinite MM with t3, Nurse, Blight or a chainsaw. That's a very dangerous road to go down where some killers stop bodyblocking and others do not.
Most people hate playing against Nurse but I rather enjoy it. I understand her limits so I know how to move to "mess her up". What is the counterplay to a Leatherface who backrevs with the chainsaw when the pallet is used and there is no nearby vault? The limitation on leatherface is that in theory you can't run one green addon and one purple addon every game. Except you can just choose to not play LF until you have more of those addons - it's quite stupid.
-"So the OP's question "is body blocking a fair technique?" well not in the specific example they give, but they are asking the wrong question, its not body blocking that's the problem here its the bad map design that allows body blocking to become exploitable."
You are also asking the wrong question. What game design elements make Blocking unfun/unfair?
I find it hilarious that the only time it's not ok to body block is when you hold someone hostage by pinning them in place.
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@pseudechis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3403657#Comment_3403657
I'm afraid your points are not as strong as you think and neither is your definition of fair play.
Fun doesn't mean fair and vice versa in fact most games a designed to be challenges that are stacked against the player. DBD is asymmetric which creates scenarios that can favor one side over the other this lopsided nature is part of the game design.
Asymmetric games often have lopsided or unfair elements that's what makes them asymmetric and that's actually part of the fun.
Play guaranteeing fun does not mean its fair, in fact the most fun scenarios are often when it falls in your favour rather than being the fair outcome, because fun is so subjective it often blurs what's truly fair.
"imagine a fps shooter where you get a crazy ability for making a kill streak that allows you to kill more people and get even better killstreaks and better rewards. Would it be fun in a Call of Duty match if someone got 30 kills in a row so they could deploy a tactial nuke that deleted anyone in a 50m circle of a painted target? The answer is no." _ Of course no, but you've crafted an example so extreme that the only logical conclusion could be no, this is called "appealing to extremes or reductio absurdum" and is a great fallacy people often commit when trying to legitimize their point if not done properly.
If you have to propose such an extreme example to make your point then your point doesn't stand on its own validity, this is a very common mistake people make when debating.
With that said lets delve into your wider point...
"It needs to be fun to play as Nurse but it needs to be fun when you play against Nurse. Assuming you have a good understanding of DBD this is true for the most part. But for the majority of DBD's lifetime there has been great consideration about what is fun to play as survivor without any consideration for how it feels to the killer." Really? I sincerely doubt that there has been no consideration of killer's fun or how it feels to play killer when making survivor changes, this is another extreme that makes little point.
The DH example is a good one and while changes took a long time, they have been made and DH is in a pretty good spot, its still over-represented though which is why more changes are coming. It doesn't make chases longer for no reason, that's what DH is for to extend chases, that's its purpose.
As for the among us example, coordination between the survivors of any asymmetric survival game always makes it harder for the killer, but it rarely makes it impossible. Among us has some flaws but they can be fixed by improving the subtlety of killing as the imposter. Overcoming coordinated teams in among us is really tough and requires some serious lateral thinking and deception, skills that honestly most people lack. A few extra tools I'd like to see in among us is the ability to force a teams to separate by being able to spread more chaos from greater distance.
"This creates an unfun scenario where you have no chance to win as the imposter when crew members can without a doubt identify other players who have a 0% chance of being the imposter.
"If everyone plays this game in this manner then it becomes a pointless endeavor to play the game at all. If you are the imposter then you will lose so the game is not even worth playing." We've now come full circle to my first point. Among us is still a fun game even when you get the more dull coordinated teams that make it harder to win and to ruin the game entirely it requires everyone to play like this which often isn't the case. Just as not every group of survivors is a coordinated SWF. Remember my point about extremes.
So if you define fair as being tools that are fun for the opponent and define fun as being the ability to win. Then any tool that limits your ability to win could be deemed as unfun and when used in a coordinated fashion deemed unfair. This is just blatantly untrue, and body blocking is a great example. (bringing it back on topic)
Having collision in game opens up all kinds of plays to use it as a tool, which is creative and fun. Both sides can use this tool which is fair, and scenarios where it can be exploited need to be identified and patched out, such as the OP's example of only one door to a hook which can be blocked.
So the OP's question "is body blocking a fair technique?" well not in the specific example they give, but they are asking the wrong question, its not body blocking that's the problem here its the bad map design that allows body blocking to become exploitable.
-" Really? I sincerely doubt that there has been no consideration of killer's fun or how it feels to play killer when making survivor changes, this is another extreme that makes little point."
How long was Sprint Burst, Self Care, Sabotage meta?
Only Sabotage changed when M. Cote kept getting all his hooks broken and he "didn't like it".
When did flashlights change? It changed when M. Cote got floored in Korea while playing Hag.
For 4 years we heard the rhetoric from the devs : nah SWF doesn't give an advantage. Then suddenly next year we heard - oops SWF gives up to a 15% escape rate.... our bad. This is terrible when you consider Freddy's last nerf was due to a 4% "too high" kill rate. But SWF gets a 15% advantage? cool.
Where's that SWF nerf? It's not going to happen because people would not like it. This causes almost nobody to want to continually play killer (the stats are like 1 killer for every 10 survivors).
Dead Hard has been a meta perk for a very long time because it gives an obscene advantage in chase. Did it get obliterated to the point where nobody uses it like Eruption? No. Most people are still likely to just use good old SB (or Lithe).
I've said for a long time either killers need exhaustion perks or some kind of "punish" mechanic that gets stronger when there are more people who are exhausted.
The bottom line is that if you've been playing this game for 6 years you know that overall there has been a very different treatment between killers and survivors in terms of rule changes. A classic example is the Mori/BNP. The mori is now useless and is only there as a bandaid to SWF breakdown spam or to counter poor game mechanics where the killer is punished for killing a survivor (with a forever broken hook). Let's stop for a minute to remember when they had announced that hooks would regenerate after 2-3 minutes.
So obviously the BNP is now just as useless as the mori right? No - it offers very real progress on a generator. How many examples do you need where the game has softer/nicer rules for survivor and less advantages rules for killer?
It's not some "extreme little point". It's not Hyperbole either - the role of killer in DBD has been kept 1 step from miserable for a very long time. One of the advantages of moving this board away from the steam forum is that they can leave behind all the messy history this game had in the first two years.
Does anyone remember the killer strike? Once upon a time it took 15 minutes to get a game as survivor but that same wait period for teen killed the game VHS just a few months ago.
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It's absolutely gross.
But let's be honest here for a minute - if we are going to have breakable doors they should shut down loops not open the opportunity for stronger ones for survivors.
Badham has 2 walls that are best if you do not break them- which is beyond stupid.
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@Rudjohns said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3404074#Comment_3404074
There is no way for the game to know if a team is an "SWF"
(Queueing up together is not SWF)
There is no way for the game to know if a team is an "SWF"
That's just ridiculous. If you started the game in the same lobby inviting people to play "SWF" then you're a SWF.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3404072#Comment_3404072
Sure. No problem. Bring old BNP where I can delete single gen out of existence and it's perfectly OK.
In current state? Hell no!
And if you get the old BNP then killers get the old mori - you fell to the ground? Have a mori with no hooks required.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3404091#Comment_3404091
Appreciate you never responding to my last question on that other thread btw
Anyways, yeah, that's not true. You get MORE from hooking the same person 3 times, but you don't get NOTHING from spreading hooks. I don't enjoy curbstomping people and ruining their experience by hard tunneling off of first hook unless I know I'm in for a good match.
It's not about wanting to ruin the game for people. I've never had survivors get every gen to 33% before getting any gen to 66% and until people play that way I'm gonna tunnel.
Even Otz tunnels as the "goto" winning strategy.
The people I am playing against would win in a huge way if I stopped tunneling and tried spreading hooks.
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@Pulsar said:
No. Why would I?
Unless it's a team I know, and I know that they're gonna be going hard, I have zero reason to tryhard and ruin somebody's game.
I think, ya know, if there's two gens left and someone's on death hook, it's completely understandable to tunnel. You want to win, and that's the best way to do so, the other players have gotten to play as well.
I think hard tunneling someone off of first hook is really a detriment to you as a Killer. You'll never get better and eventually, you'll run into people who can deal with it and that will be a truly miserable experience.
-"No. Why would I?"
Base kit you get nothing for hooking three players once each. But if you hook one player three times then the entire game dynamic changes.
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@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3404004#Comment_3404004
Yeah I'm not surprised. I feel like it's the best perk to stop a potential snowball from happening with the nerfs, so I'll do my part and bring it lol
For once I played a bunch of survivor on patch day and this perk was saving tons of time. I use it because I hate when survivors try to use it against me.
But I tunnel so that people don't get to heal often.
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@[Deleted User] said:
Main building in Ormond and Eyrie. It's such a time sink to chase here and every single survivor runs straight for the safety of these buildings.
You know what's worse than a ground floor window like old Ironworks? Let's have that upstairs in Ormond.
But the absolute most stupid main building is Garden of Joy. You have three windows to abuse - of which only one should ever be open.
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@GgamerG said:
Predicted this would happen. The last thing we needed was to buff SWF. I know many survivors will say "but statistics..." SWF can use callouts to their advantage by where to find a totem, the best place to put it, and when to call for a buddy to run over to heal them INSANELY QUICKLY. I thought we were trying to get rid of the healing meta.
I don't expect any changes for a while, seeing as how CoH was just nerfed for solo, and I still remember how long it took BHVR to change OoO 🙄
Old CoH was ridiculous but the new perk is "ok".
I still think they should have gone through with all the heal changes since they deleted all the gen regression perks.
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@Rudjohns said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3403852#Comment_3403852
Then remove the possibility of people playing the game together
Let's see for how long the game will survive
All you need to do is make SWF not have EVERY advantage over solo.
It's really simple.
Add the rule : no character/item/perk/offering repeats in a SWF.
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@oreoslurpee said:
look it looks amazing and the placements are great, but the generators are absolutely vile. i just played my first match on the new gas heaven and i got the most vile and disgusting 3 gen known to man. i have never seen a 3 gen so bad like this before
look at the top right, and the left side of your screen. notice the flashing light of the generators. their all only like 12 meters away from eachother.
There is nothing wrong with this.
DBD used to have this all the time and quite frankly it was one of the things that made the old/weak killers "work".
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@imakepeoplehateme said:
I keep on seeing this topic brought up and it rubs me the wrong way,since i personally couldn't disagree more.
Firstly depending on how back you want to go,the game was not as survivor sided as much as it was an unbalanced mess.Yeah the loops were stronger,infinites existed,busted perks roamed free for a while,hatch gave survivors an easy escape but killers also had tools such as moris for over half of the game's lifespan to even the odds to an equally oppressively degree.
If you want to talk about modern era dbd such as pre patch 6.10,yeah gens took less the complete and killers were a bit slower,survivors had their perks at full power but so did killers.
Corrupt,pain res,DMS and Deadlock was a disgusting combo,that could be run with great success on almost any killer, and has yet to be rivaled imo.A combo in which all 4 perks not only slow the game down but to the resourceful,provided valuable information(Split the map in half,loud noise + scream bubble,info on blocked gens,gen with most progress).
The strongest killers in the game were also arguably stronger.Not only were blight and spirit the best users of the aforementioned build but old DH was of equal hindrance if not a worse since their powers are predictable and speed boost is far worse than a near miss.Ds didn't matter to these strong killers either the same way they couldn't care less about it now.
Nurse was also significantly nerfed,in both build(ruin,penti,und,retri) and addons to a significantly weaker killer.
IF you think m1 killers are stronger,than you might be right,i would argue it slightly depends on the playstle,what doesn't change however is that at a high level these killers cannot compete so it doesn't matter.
On top of that every new map and rework has filled the pool with more survivor sided maps,and butchered some of the few killer sided maps, reassurance was added to completely kill camping by efficient teams,meanwhile otr is as efficient as DS at preventing tunneling.
I would also like to mention that the gen kicking meta(excluding erruption,that was vile) is not as strong as the builds of old for the simple fact that a competent swf can easily power through your 3 gen,unless you play the infamous 2 killers.
This is not even mention the upcoming patch,which we'll have to live before we can comment on it,but it seems like a buff to blight and nurse(Dh nerfed mostly) and a nerf to 70% of the killer roster since they cannot end chases fast enough without slowdown.
-"On top of that every new map and rework has filled the pool with more survivor sided maps"
Blood Lodge got a lot more fair but Gas Heaven went to being more survivor sided. You're not wrong though in that most maps favor the survivors.
-"IF you think m1 killers are stronger,than you might be right"
I would argue that m1 killer got hit very hard by the update b/c more than anyone else they needed regression.
Killer is not most definitely in a good spot right now - unless you play nurse/Blight.
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@caseyfromspacey said:
I think something needs to be done regarding the killer perks, this game used to be quite enjoyable. However within 5 seconds of spawning into a game now teammates are getting tunnelled by killers who know our every move. I thought this game was supposed to go by player level, clearly not the case anymore and is becoming a little frustrating how we’ve got no chance of even completing a single generator before we’re all dead.
-"I think something needs to be done regarding the killer perks"
Did you not see where the killer regression perks basically got deleted today?
The result however will be more tunneling and camping if that is possible.
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@pseudechis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3402893#Comment_3402893
"As I said before it would be incredibly easy to make it so that if you touch the killer you are stopped and get knocked down and have to take time to pick yourself up before you can move. In fact this literally happens all the time in horror movies where some character runs into Jason and falls down (possibly in sheer terror). And then they get killed." Yikes while simulating the realism of a horror movie what you a proposing here in game mechanics terms is more game breaking than body blocking. If all I had to do to stop a survivor was to ram them and knock them down with my hitbox that, while cool, it would be a bit much.
The second half of your reply really gets at the nut of the problem, and I hate to say it but it isn't body blocking, the nut of the problem is your perception that its not fun. Which is a valid feeling, but not valid enough to justify removing body blocking.
The definition of fair play is equal respect for the rules from both sides. In that both sides acknowledge the game rules and adhere to them and accept them graciously in both victory and defeat that is the literal definition of fair play.
Someone leveraging a legitimate tactic better than you do and winning as a result, you may not find fun but it is fair play. Collision mechanics like any can be utilized in a few different ways and players leveraging that to their advantage is good play. Both sides can leverage it making it rather fair.
That's doesn't mean there aren't scenarios where collision can be exploited, but that gets fixed by map design not removing body blocking. The example given by the OP where there is only a single point of access that can be body blocked is an example of bad map design.
-"The definition of fair play is equal respect for the rules from both sides."
I don't agree with your definition; I think the one I gave is a much better fit.
The definition of fair play is when you use an ability and it's fun to be the user as well as having that ability used on you.
Imagine a fps shooter where you get a crazy ability for making a kill streak that allows you to kill more people and get even better killstreaks and better rewards. Would it be fun in a Call of Duty match if someone got 30 kills in a row so they could deploy a tactial nuke that deleted anyone in a 50m circle of a painted target? The answer is no.
It needs to be fun to play as Nurse but it needs to be fun when you play against Nurse. Assuming you have a good understanding of DBD this is true for the most part. But for the majority of DBD's lifetime there has been great consideration about what is fun to play as survivor without any consideration for how it feels to the killer.
No killer main ever said : I sure to love how DH made the game less fun for the killer and made chases longer for no reason.
I saw a discussion recently about the game Among Us and what constitutes fair play. It is possible to prove your innocence by performing certain tasks to other crew members. If you do this with 3-4 crew members then you can be certain that those players are not the imposter. If those players always stick together it becomes impossible for them to lose.
This creates an unfun scenario where you have no chance to win as the imposter when crew members can without a doubt identify other players who have a 0% chance of being the imposter.
If everyone plays this game in this manner then it becomes a pointless endeavor to play the game at all. If you are the imposter then you will lose so the game is not even worth playing.
@drsoontm said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3398499#Comment_3398499
Instead of making everyone a ghost, make body-blocking a killer an instant-hit without any time penalty for the killer and call it a day.
The problem with this is that new players would get really frustrated because they already suck in chase. Good players would have no issue with collision.
If touching the killer knocked you over and stopped you then it would 100% stop bodyblocking. The killer could knock you over and then swing at the injured player and then turn around to hit you as you stand up. it would be high risk/high reward to try and block a killer from hitting your friend.
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@Unimatrix00 said:
I'm not sure how many people would agree with me, but based on my playing as Trapper against decent teams is a fool's errand. Especially when someone can just go around and disable your traps. Remove this ability from survivors, or at least make it a trade-off. Like if a survivor were to be injured by disabling the trap.
I would go even further and say that all trap killers need some real love to make them viable against decent survivors, so that includes Hag.
What does everyone else think?
Trapper is easily fixed.
- Restore the 2016 trap hitbox (it used to be larger and could not be so easily walked around)
- Give trapper 4 traps in hand and put the rest in the middle of the map in an "x" pattern (any offerings adding +1 trap to the map get added on the middle)
- Make bloody coil base kit AND add a deep wound effect for disarming a trap while injured.
- Revert the Purple trapper sack to be +2 traps in hand and +1 trap spawned on the map
- Replace Bloody coil offering with one of the following: A) Traps can only be disarmed by sabotage, a toolbox, or by stepping in them OR B) Traps are invisible to a survivor until you are within 1m of the trap hitbox (which is about .75m after we change #1).
This makes trapper strong again. He still has no mobility but he isn't a joke that you can just turn off his traps with no consequence.
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@NovaKane said:
Given the new changes and the fact that Sloppy Butcher will constantly be used, can you please remove the Exhaustion part of Iron Will. Thank you.
I was an Iron Will user for ~6 years. I always loved playing the stealth game and to be perfectly honest it was probably too strong. But it is now very "meh" tier because you're gimping yourself as a survivor if you do not have an exhaustion perk.
It was definitely abused by the best players in the game to guarantee longer chases - which is not something the game needs right now on the day they are nerfing all the gen regression perks into oblivion.
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@HungrySnek said:
So, yesterday I had the same scenario a few times and it's absolutely stupid. I am playing a bloodpoint build because I want to hit the 2 Millionen Mark before the new Bloodweb Update goes life.
So I bring Decisive Strike, Deliverance, Prove Thyself and Kindred
The gens where completed pretty quickly since the killer chased one survivor for the whole match. So the end game starts and the survivor get's hooked, I trade with them since the killer Camps him. Then I get unhooked and.....Decisive Strike is deactivated because it's the endgame and I get tunneled again.
I don't understand how this change is fair. So the survivors gets punished because the killer wasn't able to spread pressure or hook me before?
Decisive Strike works only 1 time, is only activated for 60 seconds and deactivats itself anyway when you do a Action. Why this stupid "It's the end game so your perk is worthless" crap?
-"I don't understand how this change is fair. So the survivors gets punished because the killer wasn't able to spread pressure or hook me before?"
If everyone has DS then the killer is almost guaranteed to get no kills once the gates are powered due to how the unhook mechanic works with base kit BT. How do we know? The devs needed the DS perk nerfed so they would stop giving away multiple escapes when they played.
As it stands quite often it still results in a free escape.
DS got nerfed from being a "guaranteed" escape to the "potential" to escape. You might not agree but it's in a very fair state right now considering M1 killers. The problem is that DBD can't have one rule set for M1's and another rule set for the "a list" and a third rule set for Nurse/Blight.
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@SkeletalElite said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3402888#Comment_3402888
Honestly, I'm not concerned with most perks that increase gen speed because 90% of them suck. As for the only good ones, Hyperfocus is extremely difficult to use to the point that I don't think it will ever be meta for 99% of players. Combing with stakeout takes half your build to make it slightly good. The only other gen speed perk that's close to good is prove thyself, which is overrated IMO. It only makes a gen around 8 seconds faster at most and needs survivors to group up to work. This isn't playing optimally, which will be especially true with the gen lockdown 3 gen meta going away with CoB and OC being nerfed.
With toolboxes, BNP is overpowered and maybe commodious is a little strong, but the BNP is the real powerhouse of toolboxes.
But if the devs were to make good gen speed increasing perks, I would hope they would be tied to outplaying the killer. Ie. the perk powers up by spending time in chase to get its effect therefore if you have long chases against the killer the gens go faster.
-"I'm not concerned with most perks that increase gen speed because 90% of them suck"
I think you don't know what you're talking about. Survivors who win save time for their team and waste time for the killer. Saving 9 seconds with prove might sound dumb but it makes all the difference in the world if two people have it vs when they don't in terms of interrupting them with "slow" killers.
Also let's be clear here - Gen regression kinda sucks as an idea when we consider there are 4 survivors and the killer at base has a 1/4th regression speed. Giving the killer a "200% regression gives them 1/2 of one survivor and there are still 4 survivors. Nobody is going to kick gens in the next patch because it was hardly worth it with the 2 perks that made it work.
Also I'd love to see the pick rates of gen rush perks if they got nerfed by 70% because that is what is happening to CoB/OC. Those perks are obliterated. Imagine if Streetwise, Built to last, Hyperfocus and all the gen rush perks got a 70% nerf - nobody would use them and that's my point. Furthermore nerfing the slowdown of one side but leaving the "rush" ability of the other side is absurd.
-"Hyperfocus is extremely difficult to use to the point that I don't think it will ever be meta"
This is a meta perk for good players already because you can make one 90 second generator be 40-45 seconds. This would be fine if:
- Toolboxes did not affect HF (like we see with autodidact).
- Stake out did not "convert" your failed great checks to good checks. The entire difficulty of this perk is removed because the perk steak out exists.
If you think Hyperfocus is ok then as killer we should have some way to either down a player every 3 minutes with a "press E to expose the person you are chasing effect" or be able to press E before hooking someone and they go to second stage for their first hook once per game.
That's the level of advantage that HF gives when used with a toolbox and stakeout.
-"the BNP is the real powerhouse of toolboxes."
Not even by a long shot. One green toolbox is very dangerous even without a BNP. You should go watch the video Otz put out about items being too strong about 6-8 months ago. The devs are NOT addressing TB with this patch but they are changing medkits.
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@Bot_Salvo88 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3398490#Comment_3398490
There's one in RPD near the main exit gate. The killer can stand there and if survivors decide to go for that last second save they can't because by the time they realize they have to go around, the teammate is dead.
This isn't that situation where there's only one entrance but the killer can bodyblock certain doors to make survivors go around and waste a lot of time. This promotes camping on RPD
RPG and Mid both can force survivors to go half way around a map for an unhook.
Do you know the room on Mid that has a ramp with a guaranteed totem? There's one way in that room downstairs. There's one way into that room from upstairs (you can stand on the ramp). This room can have a hook but it is not a guarantee.
The strategy is to stand in the doorway and not swing. This forces someone to go to the opposite corner to get upstairs and then go all the way back around. And when they do that you can just stand on the ramp and wait for them.
On RPD you can hook someone in multiple locations that have a similar effect. For east wing you can hook a survivor by the junction to the library from the main room (right next to the vault). It's literally impossible for someone to sneak past you.
If survivors are ok with body blocking then they need to be ok with hook camping in such a way to force hook states or even death.
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@pseudechis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3398499#Comment_3398499
I don't get how its not fun to have to be mindful of your surroundings so you don't get blocked in. Its a big part of the game, I'd liken it to friendly fire in shooting games, without it you can just spray bullets like a fool no thought needed.
Having collision on characters makes for all kinds of interesting plays and obstructions that can vary game outcome.
It also adds an element of realism to the physics of the game world and that realism makes up a large part of the game experience, it would be lacking without it.
As I said before it would be incredibly easy to make it so that if you touch the killer you are stopped and get knocked down and have to take time to pick yourself up before you can move. In fact this literally happens all the time in horror movies where some character runs into Jason and falls down (possibly in sheer terror). And then they get killed.
-"I don't get how its not fun to have to be mindful of your surroundings so you don't get blocked in"
Body blocking is not fun for the killer when the survivors do it to the killer. Nor is body blocking fun for the survivor when they do it to a survivor and get a free instant down as a result.
The definition of fair play is when you use an ability and it's fun to be the user as well as having that ability used on you.
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@ThePolice said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3388438#Comment_3388438
You’re comparing addonless plague with Iri addon legion on a survivor sided map. Get a grip
That's not the case at all. I was pointing out that Plague has nothing that will make her compete on a map with lots of safe pallets. Legion with Iri button is out of her league by comparison even though most people consider Legion a "B" tier killer or lower.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3401288#Comment_3401288
You're gonna have to back that list up with some explanations, unfortunately, because I'm only seeing one map where 3-gen is basically required and that's Azarov's, due to its shape making anything other than a 3-gen a serious downside for you.
Some of them, like Dead Dawg and RPD, are easier to 3-gen on because of their generator spread, but that obviously doesn't automatically translate to holding a 3-gen being required so I'd have to hear your reasoning on all these maps. Ideally not one by one, if there's some overarching logic you're using for all of them that'd be the best thing to tackle.
(We've also still got the floating question of if you think CoB/Overcharge should've stayed the way it is, for the record.)
-"Dead Dawg and RPD, are easier to 3-gen on because of their generator spread, but that obviously doesn't automatically translate to holding a 3-gen being required"
I could load up the game with a squad of efficient players and show you that you're wrong. Around 90% of the time there is one viable 3 gen on Dead dog. Good players know this and remove it immediately. There is no M1 killer in the game that can successfully hold a "y gen" against 3 players on DD saloon.
RPD is even worse. There is almost always only one viable 3 gen on the map.; If you lose it then the game is over.
@SkeletalElite said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3398477#Comment_3398477
It doesn't take 20 seconds to hook a survivor.
It takes at MOST 21.7 seconds. That is a worst-case scenario. Realistically, you will hook in 5-10 seconds most of the time.
While it takes you 10 seconds to find a survivor, it takes the other 3 survivors 10 seconds to find gens. Then while it takes you 40 seconds to down them 3 gens get 40/90. Then by the time you hook that survivor 3 gens are 50/90.
You can easily interrupt one of them in that time and another one will have to stop to go for the unhook. Meaning 1 gen will probably pop and you'll have 2 gens about 50-75% of the way there.
The reality is, if you were consistently losing your chases, but winning matches anyways. You were crutching on endless slowdowns like CoB and OC.
It was dumb to add regression perks that could be consistently and endlessly activated in the first place. All gen defense perks should have limited use or be tied directly to outplaying survivors. When perks are limited use (like corrupt) it ensures the killer needs to make the most of the limited time its active. When it's tied to outplaying a survivor to activate (like pop/jolt/pain res) it ensures that you're only getting as much value as your skill at the game allows.
When all it takes is kicking a gen to activate both of the 2 strongest slowdown perk in the game, of course, they are the obvious choice and there is no reason to use anything else. They were not only the strongest, they were infinite use with no risk. For that reason, these perks should be weaker than other options. CoB/OC should be weaker than other options like deadlock, pop, pentimento, ruin because there is 0 risk compared to those choices. The risk should proportionate to the reward.
(please buff ruin and pop though devs. 150% speed for ruin. 17.5% for of total progress for pop)
-"It doesn't take 20 seconds to hook a survivor."
The average is closer to 15 seconds overall when you consider that you have to waste a few seconds to make sure it is safe, then you pick up, then you carry. A longer carry will definitely be close to 20 seconds when you add in the other steps.
-"The reality is, if you were consistently losing your chases, but winning matches anyways. You were crutching on endless slowdowns like CoB and OC."
The reality is that most killers suck at chasing over the majority of the maps in DBD. You cannot for example hold a 3 gen on most of the maps as an M1 killer unless they are very close.
-"All gen defense perks should have limited use or be tied directly to outplaying survivors."
Should gen rushing perks have the same limits? What about toolboxes?
How do you define outplaying the killer?
@ReikoMori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3398465#Comment_3398465
A large portion of killers are legit not designed to generate pressure effectively without having something to generally slow the game down. The question becomes what is an "acceptable" level of slowdown considering before gen kicking perks started getting nerfed the complaint was killers got to much value from passive slowdown perks. Passive slowdown as a result got heavily suppressed and gen kicking got buffed, but then the complaint became killers getting too much value outta constantly kicking gens. So now both types of slow down are heavily suppressed.
If this is the acceptable level of gen speed slowdown then at this point killers that aren't good at the traditional methods of generating pressure need to probably be considered for a rework of some sort that factors in ways to generally keep people pressured. Slowing down self healing takes some of the edge off, but it is sort of getting to the point where it can feel like killers aren't really allowed to impede the survivor object in meaningful ways unless you play specific killers.
-"A large portion of killers are legit not designed to generate pressure effectively without having something to generally slow the game down."
You're right but you're not going to convince survivor mains. What makes the problem worse is that efficient killers like Blight and Nurse still sometimes need efficiency perks to slow down the game or speed up chases. When the best killers need the strongest perks you know the "lower tier" killers are suffering.
-"but it is sort of getting to the point where it can feel like killers aren't really allowed to impede the survivor object in meaningful ways unless you play specific killers"
We've been at the point for a long time where we have 2 S tier killers that are viable for all tiers of play. And then we have a handful of A tier killers who work most of the time but need strong perks and often strong addons.
And then we have everyone else who even with the most amount of help just doesn't get much done.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3400747#Comment_3400747
A large number? I can think of a few, Haddonfield and Azarov's are pretty heavily encouraged to 3-gen in their current state, but it's definitely not a large majority. Three or four at most. Even so, that doesn't really mean anything, you can hold a 3-gen on those maps without CoB/Overcharge and that combo of perks allows you to hold a 3-gen infinitely on any map, so... surely you're not saying CoB/Overcharge were fine and shouldn't be changed because of a handful of maps having kind of poor generator spreads?
It would be a problem if old killers needed to tunnel someone out ASAP. Good thing that's not the case, eh?
Okay, we're on firmer ground comparing regression perks to progression perks, so this is where we can start having a conversation. Now, nobody's going to deny (at least, nobody with any sense) that certain elements of generator progression are overtuned; some red herrings are thrown up that really aren't a problem, like Prove Thyself, but if we're in the realm of talking about toolboxes and Brand New Parts, yes, those things do need to be nerfed. IF this patch had taken a broad sweeping look at slowdown perks, not nerfing toolboxes as well at bare minimum would be a massive oversight, to put it mildly.
However, what people keep ignoring is that this patch isn't touching all slowdown. It's fixing CoB/Overcharge, that's not a net loss for killers that aren't forcing infinite 3-gens, and it's touching Pain Resonance. All the other slowdown that exists in the game - Corrupt, Deadlock, Plaything/Pentimento, Eruption, Jolt, Gift of Pain, etcetera - they're all still there. That doesn't mean toolboxes aren't a problem, obviously, but it does make the one-to-one equivalence of "if slowdown is being nerfed, progression should be nerfed too" not apply, because slowdown isn't being nerfed. Three perks are being nerfed, and two of them obviously need it.
Finally, I was never making any comment or reference to what CoB's new pickrate will be. I have, this whole time, literally just been acknowledging the basic fact that it has always had two effects.
-"I can think of a few"
What maps am I thinking about : Storehouse, Ironworks, Shelter woods, Suffo pit, Azarov's, Blood Lodge, Gas Heaven, Wretched Shop, All 5 corn maps, Both Crotus maps , Both Swamp maps, Lerys, Both Red Forest Maps, All Badham maps, The Game, Both Yamoka Maps, Ormond, Hawkins (even though its removed), Dead Dog, Mid, RPD, and Borgo.
Garden of Joy is actually not viable to 3 gen because the map is a "U" shame and it's way too easy to deny a 3 gen.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3400053#Comment_3400053
It's not a narrative, it's literally just a fact. Call of Brine has always been a hybrid perk, the fact that a majority of people only cared about one half doesn't change that.
You're not even giving appropriate information to Exhaustion perks in this ridiculous hypothetical, either. Since it would be information relevant to the time you use the perk - kicking a generator for CoB, meaning the information is when that generator is worked on again - then the equivalent would be seeing the Killer's aura for a handful of seconds once Exhausted. I don't know if anyone would run that, but it's a weird hypothetical considering the perk doesn't currently do that. That isn't how any of the Exhaustion perks are designed, but it is - and has been this whole time - the way CoB is designed.
You keep bringing up that it's a 70% nerf (to one half, not to the whole perk, but still), but you don't seem to be acknowledging that it was a justified 70% nerf? 3-gen games have been a problem, there's no denying that, and something needed to be done about CoB and Overcharge. In the case of CoB, I think it now being pushed towards the other effect it's always had and people mostly ignored is one of the healthiest changes it could've gotten.
-"You keep bringing up that it's a 70% nerf (to one half, not to the whole perk, but still), but you don't seem to be acknowledging that it was a justified 70% nerf? 3-gen games have been a problem, there's no denying that, and something needed to be done about CoB and Overcharge."
A large number of maps in this game are "3 gen or GTFO". Most of the killers do not have the means to patrol generators unless they are close together. You will lose 2 generators in the first chase so you don't really have much time before the survivors win. If you hold a 3 gen on certain maps like Suffocation pit or Azarov's you can win if you defend that 3 gen setup until someone dies.
Is it not a problem that most of the old killers need to tunnel one player out of the game vs efficient players?
As I said before - nerfing one side's tools but not the others is a real bad idea. Toolboxes should have become sabo only and the gen rush perks should have gotten a 70% nerf if the gen regression perks got a 70% nerf.
How about this : would anyone use Hyperfocus if you did not get extra skill checks from a toolbox and it only did 30% of what it does now?
If we think about an alternate reality from a balance perspective - imagine a world where the gen regression didn't get touched but the gen rush perks got a 70% nerf. That would not be fair.
-"the fact that a majority of people only cared about one half doesn't change that."
The fact that nobody is using CoB for whatever it does besides gen regression matters because nobody will be using that perk after the mid chapter patch. The use rate will fall below 5% because it won't be worth 25% of your perk slots.
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-"They are not dead perks by any means, just because that effect can't save your gameplay,"
Pop used to save 2-3 minutes when I used it before it got obliterated. I moved to a new perk to save me time in chase (STBFL/Bamboozle).
If you're at a point where you can afford to take a perk that reduces a generator's progress by 9 seconds or less - fine that's cool. The people I normally play against would be slowed down in no way by such regression and it would cost me games.
Playing a "weak" killer vs an efficient team is only possible if you make the enemy team need to repair about 6-8 generators as a function of time. You make them do extra repair work because gen regression works (until next patch).
You also conveniently ignore the 70% nerf question.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3399084#Comment_3399084
I have to admit, I don't see how this comparison even could work.
Call of Brine started out as a hybrid perk, offering both regression and information. The regression aspect ended up causing too many problems, and so now Call of Brine is an information perk.
Laid out like that, it's pretty obvious why trying to talk about nerfing Exhaustion perks is a false equivalence. For starters, they're not hybrid perks where one half is causing problems, so there's no need to talk about changing them to begin with, and for another giving them a secondary effect that makes no mechanical or thematic sense is clearly very different to the perk already having a secondary effect.
It's a false equivalence, and a weirdly unnecessary one? If you don't like CoB's information aspect you can just say that, this is weird.
-"Call of Brine started out as a hybrid perk, offering both regression and information."
You keep pushing this narrative but nobody was using it for the information; they used it for regression.
I said what if we made exhaustion perks a dual purpose information perk and nerfed the movement or stun ability by 70% - Would anyone use them?
Nobody would use them even though they do something else but have a 70% nerfed ability and that's my point. You want to push the idea that a perk nerfed by 70-75% is still fine. Ok sure thing then let's nerf all the exhaustion perks.
In before : Exhasution perks are not the same as gen regression perks. The problem is that exhaustion perks delay damage and prolong chases. Longer chases means more time on generators/healing/rescuing/opening doors.
What do Exhaustion perks do? They give you extra time to delay so that someone not being focused in a chase has even more time to do whatever they are doing. Overall they create a time advantage for your team. Note: Kick perks that regress generators do the same thing for the killer.
@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3399293#Comment_3399293
Regardless you recognize Killers are abusing a problem in design, (kick to DESTROY progress, not hinder or slow, but DESTROY without even the need to progress the game to a close with a hook or down) and the proposed nerf is aimed at tackling that problem part.
No one *yet* has been crazy enough to claim exhaustion perks in and of themselves are a problem. Instead, the complaints have mostly been relegated to DH, because how bad it feels to be hit by it, knowing you've been outplayed. That's why I said tongue in cheek, that Killer should have basekit movespeed difference tanked by ~70% also at 106% (I wanted it to still be faster than T1 Myers though). So you could hopefully bring a mirror up to your own claims to see how absurd they are in saying exhaustion is the same realm.
No one is arguing that an X% nerf wouldn't deal with the issue. Heck, DS got dropped to effectively 2s from 4s, (counting in the 1s shoulder drop) with a 50% nerf, and is worthless now too. The issue is DS is a solution to a problem (tunneling), but the unearned regression is the problem with CoB/OC. DS/Ruin/Pop/Self-Care's 'problem' was popularity, not strictly strength. That is why those were bad nerfs. Each of them getting a half-nerf would have been fine if popularity was the main driver. (DS no endgame, Pop to current OR 20%, Ruin death removal OR 100%, and Self-Care removing the Med-Kit efficiency.)
-"Regardless you recognize Killers are abusing a problem in design,"
First of all I disagree with the word abuse as this is what the developers intended the game to be like after the 6.1 change. These perks allow you to have decent games with killers who are not "amazing" in chase like Nurse/Blight.
The thing that happened is that survivors said, "I don't like this" and as usual it got nerfed to placate them.
-"No one *yet* has been crazy enough to claim exhaustion perks in and of themselves are a problem."
From a game design perspective there is a problem if both sides have tools to do opposing things and then you take the tools away from one side but not the other.
Gen rushing perks didn't get 70% nerfs but gen regression perks did. Why did they not get equal treatment along with toolboxes?
Back in the beginning of DBD we didn't have gen rush perks because the devs were afraid we would have a situation where someone could put XYZ together and finish a generator in 40 seconds that was supposed to take 90 seconds (Looking at you Hyperfocus).
The bottom line here is that the devs caved to survivor pressure and delivered small survivor nerfs with massive killer nerfs.
The irony is that this should be the part of the plan where killers get buffed (as that was the next step after solo players got put closer to SWF play).
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3399093#Comment_3399093
The problem is I was trying to be more honest and fair with throwing a bone at 2 minute exhaustion.
Killers get perks to make gens take longer - and Survivors get perks to make gens take shorter. (Eg. Hyperfocus/Overzealous/Resilience)
Survivors get perks to make chases longer - and Killers get perks to make chases shorter. (Eg. Bamboozle/Spirit Fury/Exposed perks)
Exhaustion perks are most certainly not the equivalent to regression, especially when you have a direct comparison available. I understand you were attempting a 'gotcha', but it is clearly in bad faith with false comparisons. I was giving you multiple outs, ('dual-fortress' OR shared facets) and you didn't take any.
Would I use a perk that gives 1.8m of distance? No. That's why people don't use DS. Joking aside, would you play killer if you had to move at 106% Surv speed as an M1 Killer? Clearly no. I can make an absurd claim and act like I 'gotcha' too. OC and CoB are not having their unique parts decimated so it is clearly a false equivalence.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3399174#Comment_3399174
But people can immediately gen tap and fail the skill check, tanking 14% from the get go with no limit on gen count or cooldown. I'd be fine with CoB and OC in their pre-nerf forms if they only functioned on 1 gen at a time, and the CD was reset when the gen stops regressing.
The issue though is how they don't encourage ending the game with a reward for actually progressing it. They both encourage keeping things as they are, without requiring the game to come closer to ending.
-"OC and CoB are not having their unique parts decimated so it is clearly a false equivalence."
And that's where you're wrong. Nobody will use CoB or OC after the patch because you take them to regress generators and after a 70-75% nerf they wont do that.
Killers do not kick generators with CoB to get info; they kick generators with CoB+OC because those perks absolutely destroy a generator's progress after about 30-40 seconds.
You use Sprint Burst to create distance where none exists and if it only had 30% of it's current effect then nobody would use it for exactly the same reason.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3399073#Comment_3399073
You sure like that narrative, but no, that doesn't appear to be the case.
People gave FEEDBACK. The feedback said that DH was too inconsistent, promoted hard tunneling/camping and pitted Survivors against each other in a competition for unhooks.
Even I gave that feedback, Killer main that I am, in the same thread where I gave feedback on PR.
-"Even I gave that feedback, Killer main that I am,"
I'm sorry but as a professional circus clown I don't believe for a second that you are a killer main.
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@Caiman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3398499#Comment_3398499
Remove body blocking and EVERYONE will have more "clean" fun.
Then you'd get situations where survivors dodge the killer by running directly at them to phase through them, which from the killer's limited FOV would be confusing as hell. Killer could never block a window or a pallet to prevent survivors from running through them. Protection hits would cease to matter. Imagine chasing a 4-man SWF where they all run around with coordination to be a merged survivor blob.
-"Then you'd get situations where survivors dodge the killer by running directly at them to phase through them, which from the killer's limited FOV would be confusing as hell."
No we already came up with a solution to that years ago:
If you run into the killer your movement stops for 1 second and you fall into a recovery animation and have to get up from the ground (think falling over in MWO).
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3398493#Comment_3398493
No, I understand a 70% nerf to the non-unique aspect is the exhaustion timer. The unique facet is the speed boost activation method and duration. Sprint Burst is 3s on hitting shift/run button for console, Overcome 2s (extra) on getting hit, Smash Hit 4s on pallet stun, Balanced Landing 3s on a drop, Lithe is 3s on a non-slow vault, Head On is instead a stun for 3s, DH is instead Endurance only usable while injured.
You are making a false equivalence of the regression numbers being the sprint/stun/endurance duration. The actual equivalent is the shared feature, the cooldown, the exhaustion timer. The intel on CoB isn't lasting for 15s, and the Skillcheck from OC isn't a 30% chance to be placed on the gen on kick, they both function fully still (albeit OC dropping from 15% to 14% regression on failure).
The OC and CoB survivor nerf counterpart is CoH and the basekit item of medkits in their entirety. Both are addressing 'dual-fortress' gameplay as someone else put it. There could be an argument made for DH and PR being the 'equivalent', but when I did the math, I found PR is being buffed in my games. (More when I need it, less when I don't. Also I can just avoid a Scourge hook if I get too quick of a down at the start, and don't want to waste the regression.) It is being nerfed if the killer camps and hard tunnels off hook, and nerfed in toggle tunneling at the 4th hook. In normal gameplay though, it is only nerfed by the 7th hook. If you hook everyone at least once, the soonest someone dies is at 7 hooks, and the latest is at 9 hooks. Once someone is dead, I'd argue the game might as well be won for killer at that point in the majority of cases (with the main exception maybe for 1 gen remaining when placing the Survivor on their death hook).
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3398686#Comment_3398686
My reasoning for calling CoB and OC unearned, is because Pop and PR are gained on hook, and Eruption and Jolt on down. Even Ruin requires defending if you want to keep getting value, so you earn Ruin's regression through defending the Hex, and you can't defend ruin and gens at the same time. Each of my example regression/slowdown methods (other than Ruin) are gained through advancing the game (hook states, or downs which typically lead to hook states), rather than stagnation. Even with Ruin, once the hex is cleansed, it can't come back, while CoB and OC can keep rearing their heads regardless. I also think Deadlock is unearned, but I only find it a problem when paired with aggressive camping. I think Deadlock is overall healthy, because it addresses a killer dealing with survivor problem, splitting on gens. It also does what Eruption did in a healthier way, as the survivor can voluntarily 'incap' themselves by waiting out the timer, or find and progress another gen.
-"The OC and CoB survivor nerf counterpart is CoH and the basekit item of medkits in their entirety"
Killers get perks to make gens take longer and survivors get perks to make chases get longer. Exhaustion perks are to killer what gen regression perks are to survivor. Both sides have a tool to make the other side's objective take longer but the killer tool is nerfed by 70% this patch. So why not nerf the survivor tool by the same amount.
-"I understand a 70% nerf to the non-unique aspect is the exhaustion timer."
Since it's literally my idea I'm saying the stun or movement component of those perks is what would be nerfed. The timers would stay the same however.
You would never use Sprint burst with only 30% of the current effect and that's my point. You can dance around the issue indefinitely.
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3398470#Comment_3398470
BNPs - Yes, smart people do the smart thing. My question was essentially how often do you see people do that smart thing? The vast majority of my BNP matches are a single person using on their first gen, or dying with it unused (either because I saw the BNP under hook as Surv, or because 0 of the gens were completed so I just have to assume it went unused). I probably have only seen 4 BNPs once or twice, and I remember winning at least one of them regardless. I think BNPs are more of a boogeyman that doesn't actually live under the bed. Syringes I completely understand and agree are a problem though, and with the self-healing nerfs they will take 24s basekit to go into effect on yourself, so I feel like that is getting fixed.
It largely depends on who you are playing with/ against. I see people use it in a smart way all the time.
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@RaSavage42 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3398465#Comment_3398465
If that's the case then why even have Gen regression in the first place?
I think it's due to Survivors saying that they don't like holding M1
-"If that's the case then why even have Gen regression in the first place?"
You might not remember but back in 2016 we didn't have it. What survivors did was 99% generators so the killer would waste time and patrol them.
@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3398361#Comment_3398361
How does that relate to what I said? Exhaustion perks wouldn't have a secondary effect like Call of Brine does.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3398506#Comment_3398506
That's a fair opinion, albeit one I disagree with, but everyone seems to just skip acknowledging that Call of Brine is in fact an information perk and doesn't just give a boost to regression. If you think that part isn't worth bringing or isn't enough for the perk to not need to be buffed, you do actually have to say that- and more than just say it, you need to make a case for it, too.
-"Exhaustion perks wouldn't have a secondary effect like Call of Brine does."
No problem let's give them a new secondary info effect. Now when another survivor uses a perk that causes exhaustion you see their aura for one second.
And then the movement speed effect of all suck perks (or the stun effect) is reduced by 70%.
Would you use that? You would not. And that's the point.
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@KerJuice said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3398466#Comment_3398466
@DBDVulture Crow gets it. He understands.
I stand by what I say, and I’m going to keep pushing this narrative as long as game developers are going to keep pretending like grouping up isn’t an advantage and causes an imbalance. When they pair it up with terrible matchmaking, then it becomes a recipe for disaster. I’m sorry the game sucks at high level for killers, but the games sucks even more at low-mid level for survivors. AND BOTH are caused by the improper balance of SWF’s. I swear the consistent potatoes you get as teammates, do more damage to the team than any killer can. They practically give the killer the W with the lack of communication, ragequitting, cowardice, and lack of game sense/awareness. They can’t even take advantage of anything you deem survivor sided such as Ormond. Put Pinhead on that map and watch them ragequit or let go on hook once they got caught first and see he has Plaything. A 3/4 man SWF isn’t doing that. You’ll find out if you don’t do the lament box, 8 times out of 10 NONE of your teammates will do it. Onryo? You think solos strategically do TV’s in between gens to cut off her map control? No. Plague? Always cleansing to give her, her power- then will come and save infected you off hook 10 seconds right after, cleanse again, thus giving her power twice in less than 45 seconds. Nice. Always hiding, self caring, and COH’ing, and too brain dead to take advantage of a “survivor sided” game. And that’s the problem right there Vulture- all these resources put into play for those who need it most (the majority of the player base), and they don’t use it to their full potential. Who does? SWF’s do, on top of already having the one thing that Trumps ANY killer or survivor perk- Communication.
Four good solos are practically unicorns. They’re not encountered often on the low to mid level, otherwise I’d see more of them in my matches when I’m survivor. Huge difference from now and the days of red ranks. Red ranks I consistently saw good players in the majority of my matches.
SWF’s are why I don’t like playing killer. If I lose, it’s usually a stomp- rarely a close game. If I win, it’s usually a sweat fest and not enjoyable. I feel like a played 3 games in a row after just playing ONE match. Too stressful. I don’t understand how killer mains do it. When I go against solo’s who know how to play and use whatever is at their disposal, I enjoy the killer experience the most- win or lose. It’s the perfect tempo. Now going against solo potatoes is nice and an ego boost (NGL), but too often I have to let the last person or last two go because their teammates either ragequitted or were just somewhere hiding and not participating/helping. I totally understand their woes for having to endure that, so I become empathetic. But the game is not fun having to deal with that for 2 or 3 matches consecutively, so i turn it off.
-"developers are going to keep pretending like grouping up isn’t an advantage and causes an imbalance."
For the first 4-5 years the devs said : SWF offers no advantage. Then they said, "oops it gives up to a 15% increased escape rate- our bad."
-"the game sucks at high level for killers, but the games sucks even more at low-mid level for survivors"
And the problem here is that they balance the game around the bad players and ignore the high level experience. This causes high level killer players to quit.
-"Four good solos are practically unicorns."
The MMR system encourages people who hide in the corner to rank up because escaping is the only metric. Once upon a time you needed to do well in 4 categories to rank up. So only the good players were red and those who were corner campers got to maybe green if they got carried.
"SWF’s are why I don’t like playing killer"
And the problem is that the rhetoric they gave us was that first they were going to make solos closer to SWF and then they were going to buff killers. Where did that part go? They nerfed killers to the point where gen defense is impossible and gave survivors a slap on the wrist.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3399024#Comment_3399024
PR got a side grade. It's better in the early-game, you know, when Killer is weakest.
Med-Kits that heal once are exponentially less powerful than Med-Kits that heal 5 times and in under 16 seconds.
DH is an essentially dead perk. You will not see it often at all. It has a hypothetically strong effect but its gatekept by too many variables. A perk dependant on the Killers internet isn't good. You get two shots at it and if you whiff, that's it. It's not worth running over other more reliable perks anymore.
CoH lost the single most powerful effect in the game in exchange for, at bare minimum, a 30 second time investment to heal.
-"DH is an essentially dead perk"
No it isn't. They were going to make it a dead perk and survivors cried.
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@stvnhthr said:
Killer hooked me and then body blocked the only entrance to the room. He would not hit the other survivors or chase them just stood there. Seems maybe there should be no hooks without at least two modes of access. There are some real crummy folks who will take advantage of anything to grief players.
It's an unpopular opinion but I don't think there should be any bodyblocking in DBD.
It's not fun when Survivors do it to the killer at the end of a game to deny pressure.
It's not fun when a Trapper blocks you and puts a trap at your feet or a LF revs a chainsaw while you cant move.
Remove body blocking and EVERYONE will have more "clean" fun.
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@Pulsar said:
POV: The DH nerf, the CoH nerf and Med-Kits nerfs are actually buffs.
Keep coping, I guess.
Remind me again what i happening to all gen regression perks?
Oh that's right they are getting nerfed so hard they might as well not even exist.
Did you play back in 2016 when you couldn't kick generators? DBD will be like that because without kick perks you should basically never waste time kicking a generator.
Meanwhile gen rush perks did not get a 70% nerf like OC or a 75% nerf like CoB.
Toolboxes didn't become sabotage only and the BNP didn't get retired.
@Ἥφαιστος said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3396536#Comment_3396536
... There are other perks besides Dead Hard? Hello? Lithe or Sprint Burst??
Gen rushing is still going to be a problem who cares if medkits getting nerfed when you have toolboxes hahahaha!!
-"Gen rushing is still going to be a problem who cares if medkits getting nerfed when you have toolboxes hahahaha!!"
And that's exactly the problem because without Gen regression you will have no meaningful way to stall the survivor objective.
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@Nihlus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3398062#Comment_3398062
I think BHVR is trying to tell you that you should be generating pressure without making survivors spend the entire game holding M1 on the same gens. Almost as if, after all the myriad nerfs to loops, pallets, and windows, you should be getting people down faster so you can generate this pressure... and if you can't... then you're the one getting outplayed. Weird, it's almost like you're not supposed to stall for 30 minutes until your opponents die of boredom.
-"Almost as if, after all the myriad nerfs to loops, pallets, and windows, you should be getting people down faster so you can generate this pressure... and if you can't... then you're the one getting outplayed"
Run me through which maps got nerfed - oh that's right it never happened.
There is one fair map in the whole game : Wrecker's Yard. This is the map where good survivors can win if they play smart or the killer can win if they play better.
Garden of Joy is a complete Joke with windows that make the old Ironworks of Misery window look weak.
Shelter woods back in 2016 had a 75% or higher kill rate because it was the only map in the game with no infinite loops (after the shack lost its 2nd window). Since 2016 that map got a lot more survivor sided and now with the release of the Skull Merchant it's just dumb.
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3398062#Comment_3398062
I think it is more accurate to say people don't like the game being held hostage in spirit, even if not by the strict letter.
Pre 6.1.0 Pop/Ruin were the most fair forms of regression, and I don't like how they were changed only for popularity's sake.
At first I was against the Pain Res changes, but then I realized it is a buff before 7 hooks. If you haven't won the game by 7 hooks, an extra pain res isn't gunna help you out enough to prevent that anyways. I understand the problem of hook trade camping, and this doesn't fully address that, but at least it comes close.
CoB and OC are unearned regression, and unearned regression should be proportionately weaker than earned regression. This fits that without nerfing their unique features (Intel for CoB, Bonus Skillcheck for OC).
The reason killers run regression is they don't have confidence in chase enough to win with 450-630 gen seconds (sometimes people split on final gens, and 630 accounts for all gens 99'd). Regression adds to that minimum and maximum. Pallets are a consumable resource, in the same respect as gen seconds are. The difference is you can 'rebuild' a gen before it pops, but you can't rebuild a pallet.
The issue with modern map design, is they are based around pallets, not windows (other than a main building god window). Windows allow for skill expression on both sides, and pallets flatten that for the most part. The problem is many killers insta-kick pallets, rather than use their power or bloodlust filler pallets. That is my trick to winning Borgo/Garden of Pain mostly. Is it fun, no, is it effective, yes. When people realize they need to BL the boring filler pallets, or the maps utilize fair windows instead, then we can have better maps, and more confident killers that don't rely on 4 slowdown.
Sadly this bad map pallet abuse is the survivor's equivalent of weaponizing fun against their opponent just as camping is killer's. It isn't exactly the same (unless they sent you to that map), because the survivor's choice is drop pallet or die, and Killer's is camp/pressure gens/chase rescuer. It also isn't truly equal, as camping can be done on any map (outside of 2 story maps with Reassurance in play), but both are still problems nonetheless.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3398361#Comment_3398361
Honestly I am fine with nerfing exhaustion perks by ~70% as long as we use the same philosophy - don't touch the unique portion. That means all exhaustion perks have a T3 CD of ~120s instead of 40s. You get value once per hook state, or if the killer completely ignores you for 2 minutes of walking/not moving. I don't think unearned regression is the equivalent aspect as exhaustion, (this is dual-fortress gameplay being addressed, with CoH being adjusted on survivor side) but I don't know what would be a good counterpart adjustment.
-"Honestly I am fine with nerfing exhaustion perks by ~70% as long as we use the same philosophy"
You don't seem to understand that a 70% nerf to sprint burst would reduce the active time to sprint by 70% and then you would have the standard cool down timer.
That's what happened to Overcharge and CoB got a 75% nerf. Maybe Lithe should get a 75% nerf instead.
Would you use lithe to get 1/4 of its current speed boost? I think not.
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@KerJuice said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393540#Comment_3393540
“False rhetoric???” The game is imbalanced because of SWF’s- there’s a LOT more of them than 4 good solo players. But you know who the majority is? Solo potatoes. SWF’s are the ones who make killers lives miserable. Why doesn’t the game show who’s in a SWF? Because every killer would dodge those lobbies. WHAT DOES THAT TELL YOU? C’mon now- there are no excuses for that. That’s just plain flagrant. Overwatch is another game that won’t show who’s teamed up- it’s an advantage and causes imbalance. Let’s call it for what it is and stop pretending they’re not the real culprit. It’s a totally different game when I play solos vs. SWF’s. Matchmaking is too asss to consistently give you 4 good solos, so when you do go against solo players- it’s mostly a chill and enjoyable experience.
And as far as maps go: Auto Haven Wreckers Yard, Midwich, Lery’s, The Artist’s map, Haddonfield, The Game (goes both ways- especially for Meyers, Pig, Hag, Doctor, Skull Merchant, etc. and any pallet builds [enduring, spirit fury, nemesis, brutal strength, etc.]. Killers have their fair share of maps, plus the new and future updates are nerfing loops and shrinking more maps. Maps mean nothing in 2023. I bet you if anything, it’s the SWF’s who you are protecting who bring the most map offerings, cause I don’t see it too often in solo que, that’s for damn sure.
-"it’s the SWF’s who you are protecting who bring the most map offerings"
You have me all wrong.
- The game favors the survivor over the killer when you reach above average skill level.
- SWF breaks DBD even more
- Stong perks like DH, Deliverance, Reassurance, etc., all massively imbalance the game unless the killer is playing Nurse/Blight with meta perks. Strong items have the same effect. Survivor sided maps have the same effect.
A number of people want to say : SWF is better than killer which is better than solo survivor. That's just not true if you are playing against very good players. One single mistake as killer often costs you a kill. That is what I meant when I said "false rhetoric".
-"Lery’s, The Artist’s map, Haddonfield, The Game"
These maps are massively survivor sided. The only exception is when you pick Lery's with ghostface - otherwise that map is a survivor playground because one side of the map is impossible to defend. It is absolutely a "3 gen or gtfo map".
Crow map is less crappy than it was before but is still overall too big and it is easy to make a "Y" gen where old killers can't defend the gens.
Haddonfield is a "3 gen or GTFO" map. Also if the basement of pain is on the Myer's side of the street then it is impossible to hold that side so you don't even have a proper 3 gen.
The Game is killer sided if you are Nurse, Blight, Nemesis, Huntress, PH and probably someone else Im forgetting. These killers can play the game with no addons and be fine. Most other killers would get stomped on this map.
Take legion for example.... this map will absolutely destroy you unless you have Iri button (Iri button base kit for Legion when). But the map is "fine" if you have Iri button. That's not right.
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3397076#Comment_3397076
Even accounting for a generous 18s per 'reload', you get a solid ~50s, on top of it being available when you need to speed up a gen. the BNP is only available the first gen you try to use it on. How often do you actually see people save BNPs for the final 3 gens? Heck, you can't even tell unless you watched them personally, or had a recording of the Survivor HUD seeing it speed up. The majority of my soloq teammates burn BNPs on the very first gen, and typically drop their box for a chest item instead. Them wasting time rerolling their item on the chest often makes up for the BNP boost alone.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3397500#Comment_3397500
I thought White Ward saved whatever item and add-ons they brought into the trial, even if they used an add-on mid-match.
-"How often do you actually see people save BNPs for the final 3 gens?"
Bad players use their BNP whenever on the first gen they find. Smart players wait until the killer gets in a chase then burn their BNP on a generator that breaks the strongest 3 gen on the map.
It doesn't matter what you do after the 3 gen is broken because for most of the old killers there is no coming back. If you have gens in a "Y" configuration you can't defend that unless you are Blight/Nurse or have a teleport power.
@Ithiria said:
They aren't going to remove non-sabo, and aren't gonna make them useless.
I do think at minimum toolbox skillchecks shouldn't work with hyperfocus. Simple premise, toolboxes give you more skillchecks which synergizes very well with hyperfocus, and BNP skillchecks also synergize with it. This is bad imo. Without the toolbox interaction I think hyperfocus is actually a balanced perk.
Perhaps for further changes, a generator could be made to only take one BNP ever. If you have 4 BNPs, you have to use them on different gens. This is still insanely strong, but what makes BNPs transcendently strong is when you have multiple and use it when there's only one or two gens left.
A luxury change would be to make BNP consume the entire toolbox once you right click a gen. I don't think BHVR would do this though because it means if you brought a BNP the rest of the toolbox is irrelevant.
-"I do think at minimum toolbox skillchecks shouldn't work with hyperfocus."
And for the exact same reason that you can't use Autodidact with a medkit. Literally everyone offered this suggestion on the PTB but BHVR didn't go through with it because it makes for a nice "must buy" pay to win perk if you have the Wesker DLC.
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@KayTwoAyy said:
Wesker. Nemesis. Wesker. Nemesis. Wesker. Wesker. Wesker. Nemesis.
Are there any other Killers in the game? It's getting really redundant, and it doesn't help that both killers have nasty reputations for tunneling--which my opponents seem more than happy to live up to.
The other day I faced Wesker 5 games in a row.
These RE Killers must make up at least 75% of my Survivor games.
If I'm not going to be matched with players of equal skill level, the least I could ask for is a little variety.
-"These RE Killers must make up at least 75% of my Survivor games."
This may come as a shock but these are fun killers to play.
Wesker has a moderately strong ability that helps a lot more in chase compared to all the old M1 killers. His dash also counters Shift+W play which is the bane of killers that have no movement powers.
Nemesis too is moderately strong in chase once you have whipped two different survivors. Instant pallet break is a really strong power. You can make everyone want to stop looping you so that the only strategy becomes Shift+W (to which you do not have much of an answer).
You know why Never see Trapper? It's because he's a burden to play. People just disarm your traps and be like :
Trapper would be "fun" if he started with at least 4 traps in hand and the rest of his traps were in the middle of the map AND bloody coil was base kit.
In addition to update this killer disarming a trap should give the deep wounds effect if you are already injured.
We also need to revert the nerf somewhere from around 2018-19 where Beartraps had their hitbox reduced. Make them bigger if you need to but there should be no "walking around them".
What do we do to replace the Bloody Coil? Pick one of these options:
- Beartraps are invisible beyond 3m and slowly fade in as you get closer to the trap.
- Beartraps cannot be disarmed except with a toolbox (consuming charges) or with the sabotage skill.
The Purple trapper sack can go back to being +2 traps in hand at the start of the trial and +1 trap in the middle of the map.
These changes would make Trapper a real threat - something he just isn't right now. And that really is the problem.
Are you familiar with the streamer CMWinter? He's the Pig main. He plays very well considering he plays Pig but at the end of the day someone who is just "average" on Blight will often end up with faster downs and an equal result.
Why would you bother for "MAXIMUM EFFORT" pig when you could just play Blight and not even be stressed.
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@Skill_issue said:
for killers is it 12 hooking? no tunneling/camping/slugging?
for survivors is it lots of long chases? only large maps?
curious to hear your thoughts since i consider pretty much anything goes in this game except for tea bagging since it is only in the game to bully killer players and possibly face camping bubba
and can a fair game be an enjoyable game?
The most fair map in DBD is Wreckers yard.
- The map is small.
- The tiles are not super crazy linked (which makes Coal Tower unfair).
- The pallets are strong but there are not many pallets.
- The main building is not complete BS (but then again "shack" is the main building).
- Most of the generator locations can be a viable 3 gen for M1 killers.
When you look at a lot of the maps they lead to a 3 gen or gtfo style of play. Dead dog and Azarov's are maps where the killer has already lost the game if the three gen setup is broken.
Garden of Joy has the most broken building in the entire game with 3 completely BS windows - only one should be open. Badham is an honorable mention with a BS main building too.
Large maps are just outright completely stupid. You will chase one person and everyone else is safe off in a corner on a generator. But on small maps (like we had on game launch) you run into people during chases. So you chase one person and interrupt another person mid chase.
Large maps also have stupid travel time from one side of the map to the other - meaning you have zero chance to guard generators across the map. Generally speaking most large maps are by default : 3 Gen or GTFO maps.
Then we have maps like "The Game" where you have 25 pallets for no real reason. Survivors send themselves to this map because it's a killer sided map right (/sarcasm)? They send themselves to that map because they know it will be a favorable chance for them to win.
By Comparison Hawkins was a pretty fair map. The map had a fair number of pallets but most of them were "unsafe". That is to say the killer had the ability to mind game the pallet. Most pallets in DBD now are : you have to break this or the chase is over.
Father Campbell's Chapel used to be a fair map and now it isn't. Why? They removed the 3 gen from the carnival side. Remember that for a map to be fair the killer needs multiple locations where the killer has the potential to hold a 3 gen setup. Overall this map has always been problematic because the Shack is almost always connected to a single/double gym that usually creates a near infinite loop when you get both. The middle can be a death trap or a near infinite depending on RNG.
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@jesterkind said:
Call of Brine doesn't only have +25% regression. It has a secondary effect that was completely unchanged and is, in my experience, surprisingly useful.
If we Nerfed the effect of all exhaustion perks by 70% do you think any survivors would still use them? They would have the same cooldown of course.
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@Huge_Bush said:
I doubt every team you faced was seal team hokage plus ultra level. I’m mediocre/bad at killer and I’m doing okayish. I’m not getting easy 4ks like some one here like to gloat, but 2-3k is often.
Maybe you play to try-hard and you’re stuck in high MMR hell. If you come back to the game, ease up a bit and let your MMR tank.
First you gaslight someone when they are trying to share their experiences.
Then you say : just lose a bunch of games in a row and then it will be fine after you've tanked your MMR.
@NotAnotherDoctor said:
I can't for the life of me just have a normal game anymore.
Every single game I have I get paired against the FBI, the US marines, the navy seals, and the British army.
It's literally unbearable. I logged in today to have a quick chill game before doing what I needed to do and again got matched against a super swf.
Needless to say I uninstalled. This game has gone to hell.
Killer is trash. Solo queue is trash.
The only way to enjoy dbd anymore is to play swf.
Well done on killing off the casual players, BHVR
Killer has sucked almost the entire time since 2016. It's my belief that the devs keep the role one step away from being miserable by design.
Nurse and Blight "work" on every possible scenario; they're fine vs SWF, on hilariously broken survivor favored maps and against the most incredibly BS perks/items.
Most of the killer cast is nowhere near that lucky and any one of those things can easily ruin the game for them.
@Veinslay said:
The matchmaking just makes no damn sense in this game. Streamers like Tofu and ScottJund get fed a steady diet of complete babies to slaughter live on Twitch while almost every lobby for me includes multiple p100s, juiced items, and shattered square/farm/garden of joy offerings
-"Streamers like Tofu and ScottJund get fed a steady diet of complete babies to slaughter live on Twitch while almost every lobby for me includes multiple p100s, juiced items, and shattered square/farm/garden of joy offerings"
Why hide MMR unless you as a company are doing something shady?
Consider for a moment that maybe anyone who is a "fog whisperer" gets an emblem on their account that gives them easy games. What would that do?
- It would make the game look more fun than it actually is.
- It would make people watch these people play and think : I could do that.
- This would increase sales and make them more money.
By hiding the system from us we also can't easily tell when it is broken. Maybe that p100 player with 5,000 hours was with a drunk friend or maybe the match maker is drunk. We'll never know because they hide it from us.
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@Skill_issue said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3385942#Comment_3385942
but killers will be in more chases theroretically to make sure everyone stays injured...and i see a lot more corrupt/no way out/deadlocked/sloppy butcher builds
Why would I go for chases? Nothing changes from the killer side except that Gen regression and gen kicking no longer exist.
Long Heals "didn't feel good" so it won't be part of the patch but all the gen regression is getting deleted.
Medkits are getting nerfed, CoH is getting obliterated and DH won't be an issue until people get unhooks. But to compensate for that you don't get any ability to reduce generator progress in a meaningful way.
That means the only real value is getting one person out of the game. You will see "more" proxy camping and tunneling (assuming more is even possible).
"more corrupt/no way out/deadlocked/sloppy butcher builds"
Corrupt is kinda dumb after the nerf because you lose the perk on the first down. Deadlock will not become common because it has never been in the shrine. However DL+NWO will likely be meta to the point that it will get nerfed next because nothing else even comes close.
Sloppy is dangerous because you want them to heal. If they dont heal then they just blast the gens.
Without some new perk that is like : you cant work gens while hurt you are playing with fire if they dont heal and instead just blast the generators.
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@Boons123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3397765#Comment_3397765
Of course, I am punished for the mistakes of baby, Bill
What if I am good at a game while my team is bad why should I be punished for their mistakes?
@Archael said:
-"As much as i agree that genrush is one of the reason some killers camp and tunnel. "
"I cannot agree that we have to touch both those topics in the same thread."
Since you agree that genrush causes tunneling; do you think gen rush is fine and Tunneling is bad?
No. I agree that some people tunnel because of gen rushing. Not all of them, and not only because of that.
-"Just because genrush exists does not means tunneling do not exist."
You missed the forest for the trees. We already established that Gen rushing exists and that causes killers to need to tunnel as a reaction.
No. It was the answer for the argument. Argument was that because i'm this topic author was talking about tunneling it means that they dont want to aknowlege genrushing. And as much as i can see why this statement was made i cannot agree that if topic is specifically about tunneling we have to talk about genrushing.
And Idea You gave is simmilar to what i have posted. Yet it does not adress genrushing. It is about tunneling, making it less appealing, and its about reducing gen repair speed. But genrushing is when all surv efforts are putted into gens so that game ends in 3 mins. Even with Your suggested change, genrushing is possible.
Which means that even if You talk about genrushing, You are not touching it.
And one other things to your suggestion: giving only penalties is not good thing.
My suggestion was to reduce gen speed for hooks, but increase it for kills.
You CANNOT address tunneling if you only do it for one side and not the other.
What does the killer get if the survivors finish two generators before the killer gets 2.4 hooks?
-"One random generator is fixed automatically"
I mean really? What happens with killer if there are no kills and the survivors finish 4 generators? Does one survivor die instantly on the spot? LOL.