DBDVulture
DBDVulture
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@Squippit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3394633#Comment_3394633
Ok hold on, old Eruption was stupid, it was basically Killer Deadhard (which is also stupid)
The counterplay is "predict when the perk is in play and about to happen to avoid it by stopping doing your objectives". It's a perk that had counterplay that felt bad, like Spine Chill and Pain Res/DMS combo. I do not want that back.
Old eruption was stupid but could have been made fair to both solo queue and SWF.
When someone goes down any kicked generators lose 10% porgress and start regressing for 35% as if the killer had kicked them (triggering the regression rate of CoB/OC but not any side effects like the required skill check or aura vision). Keep those generators untouchable by survivors for 35 seconds.
The survivors can heal or go do other generators but they can't touch THOSE generators.
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@Rogue11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3394221#Comment_3394221
Good thing the generator that got tunneled out of the match in 2 mins won't burn out and quit playing the game. They really are a calm and understanding bunch, those generators.
The survivor crowd wants to say : nobody cares when the killer loses a generator because it's not a person. The problem is that as a killer you had no chance to defend that objective. That really is your objective - you can never lose the game if the gates never get powered.
I don't tunnel survivors so they quit playing DBD. I do it to make the game into a 3v1 where I have a chance of winning.
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@LollyGurl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3394689#Comment_3394689
Gen rushing does require skill, a lot of survivors struggle with difficult skill checks, which is part of what made Overcharge good and it’s why not all of them can use Brand New Parts or Hyperfocus. Then easier stuff like Prove Thyself or Friendly Competition causes Discordance to trigger or requires them to waste time cleansing/booning like Overzealous, which gained the booning option just as the best boon’s getting giga-nerfed :D
-"Gen rushing does require skill, a lot of survivors struggle with difficult skill checks, which is part of what made Overcharge good"
I really hope your post is satire with the ":D" at the end. Most survivors do not struggle with skill checks. It's literally an "afk" test. Nobody struggles with Overcharge checks unless they are drunk or they tap the generator and are not ready for the check mid chase.
Overcharge works because if left alone for ~40-60 seconds it nukes the generator. What do you need to do to get overcharge to work? Tunnel one player out and hook/slug another player.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3394633#Comment_3394633
Interesting. Considering healing changes and how much easier the killer will have it after the patch, at minimum me personally is changing sides. I will still play some survivor, but probably more killer, because butchering of CoH, huge reduce to medkits and even DH limitation (this last one bothers me only indirectly, I wasn't using it for a long time, but ppl that did used to save me with it sometimes)...
Also. Where does that stupid notion of not enough killers come from? If you pick random time during a day, chances are incentives will be on survivor. And the chances are very good. 60% killrate after all. Queue times also match this. Maybe check incentives also any other time during day and not just at 7pm...
-"Where does that stupid notion of not enough killers come from?"
Every day for DBD follows the same pattern.
- In the morning all the SWF groups go to bed so more people play killer. This is when survivor mains play killer. This is when you have a guaranteed survivor BP bonus.
- In mid afternoon survivor mains hop on and the bonus flips over - but sometimes it goes back and forth because once again : it's not "SWF central" time yet.
- Once evening rolls around it's 100% killer basically all night until morning.
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@Steakdabait said:
no you had your fun stalling matches for 50 minutes. You made your bed now sleep in it.
You do realize that very few people continue to regularly log in to play killer right?
If there is no viable gen regression then what happens if a big chunk of killers like me who have been here since the beginning just stop playing.
It would be one thing if they said : oh by the way all gen rush perks are getting the same nerf as CoB/OC with a 70% reduction in effect AND toolboxes are now sabotage only AND we made all the healing slow.
What is going to stop the gen rush? There's literally nothing viable left and the devs have done nothing to stop the ~40 second generator repair rush with Hyperfocus.
We know there is a massive imbalance of survivor to killer ratio thanks to the BP bonuses. We know it was the same before the 6.1 meta shake up that was supposed to make more people want to play killer. We actually have leaked data from people pinging the DBD servers where in some cases we had 45 killers or fewer in queue with 4500 survivors.
Killer has always been kept one step away from being miserable. But they can't just destroy every viable gen regression perk if they want people to keep playing killer.
@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3394619#Comment_3394619
Sure, but some people aren't gonna have any one specific perk, even if it's been in the shrine. If the question is what players who only have access to some perks will use, I can't really answer that without knowing what DLCs they have, y'know?
Jolt does work on its own, but yes, it's better with other regression perks.
Why do people keep saying Eruption is dead? 10% regression on every gen you kick with no range requirement is perfectly serviceable, you just have to be playing a killer that can cycle between those gens. Wraith is my best for it, personally, but anyone with mobility or a teleport can do it.
-"Why do people keep saying Eruption is dead?"
Because it went to 10% reduction and the survivors could immediately start working on the generator again. Previously it lost 10% immediately and then it would lose another 20% while that player could not work on it.
When you look at player usage for Eruption it's down in the 6% range but it was supposed to become meta - oops they missed the mark.
-"you just have to be playing a killer that can cycle between those gens"
If DBD is moving to the point where only Blight and Nurse are viable then I'm out.
I was barely hanging on playing older killers. I was still having fun vs most of the 5000-10000 hour survivors I played against as "weaker" killers with the limited regression we had left.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3394607#Comment_3394607
So! You've got Jolt, Deadlock, and Eruption. All solid perks, to varying degrees; Eruption can be a little killer-situational and Jolt can be a lot map-dependant, but they're pretty solid and reliable picks that you can depend on to give you value within a match. There's also Corrupt, as you acknowledged, that gives you some pretty good early-game pressure from denying the gens survivors spawn on.
Since self-healing got moderately-to-severely gutted, Sloppy Butcher is going to be pretty solid on the killers who can apply it- and most of the ones that can't have addons for it anyway.
Dead Man's Switch is surprisingly good even on its own, at least if you're playing a mobile or ranged killer. Might not be as good for the likes of Clown and Trapper, but I run it on Wraith and see pretty noticeable value.
Gift of Pain is decent, if not amazing. Pairs well with other forms of slowdown, so maybe don't run it on its own but do keep it in mind.
Plaything/Pentimento remains a very good pick if you're willing to invest in it, probably the best active slowdown there is. That's for generators being done slower, mind, not regressing or being blocked or any other form of slowdown.
Basically, if you put even the slightest amount of thought towards considering your options, understand that what killer you play should affect what perks you bring into a trial, and accept that perks should only give you windows to generate proper slowdown via hooks with your own skill, there's plenty of good perks left. This is only slowdown, too, you're going to want chase and information perks as well.
-"You've got Jolt, Deadlock, and Eruption. All solid perks"
Deadlock has never been in the shrine so some people don't have it. It's functional but that's about it.
Joly only works with another strong gen regression perk.
Eruption is completely dead and it's just wrong to imply otherwise.
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@GlamourousLeviathan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3394161#Comment_3394161
You know what is funny about that Borrowed Time base kit? When talking about the possibility of making BT basekit, the devs also mentioned how difficult the early game is for killer. Then the community said that BT should be made basekit alongside Corrupt Intervention. BT got added as basekit and Corrupt got nerfed.
Corrupt got nerfed because " survivors didn't like it".
They should have given killers Base kit dead lock - that way both sides have objective tunneling protection.
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@CrossTheSholf said:
COB and OC should have been capped at 150% not 125%. That just kills it.
I wouldn't mind if CoB and OC were nerfed by 70% if base kit kicking a gen was 1:1 regression with survivor repair - if 4 survivors are alive. Reduce the effect by 25% whenever someone dies.
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@CrossTheSholf said:
AHHAAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAA. Nope, they are still killing them. Welcome to the true gen rush hell.
If that's so then a lot of people will immediately retire from the killer role.
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It would make zero sense if we had nothing for gen defense- although that seems to be path we are heading down.
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@Sonzaishinai said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3394053#Comment_3394053
tunneling generators is all i needed to hear.
Sounds to me you relied to much on a cheese strat and are now forced to deal with survivors above your skill level.
Hardcore tunneling from the start is something that can backfire massively if survivors get stronger. 95% of genrush complaints are just killers who tunnel at the wrong time.
Genrush and tunneling gens are excuses you are giving yourself. If you want to become better at the game you need to ban those words out of your vocabulary. The only time an actual genrush happens is with multiple bnp's or /and gen perks.
There are plenty of strategies against survivors "tunneling gens". Slugging being one of the biggest ones. Not many people talk about it but pay attention when you watch high level players. Almost every time they slug for pressure atleast once. That's one of the biggest things you can learn.
Hooking someone takes 6-21 seconds, that's ~7-23% times 3 of gen times you are giving the survivors for free when you hook somebody. A survivor slugged while you chase another means 3 survivors aren't on gens as someone has to pick the slug up. Slugging at the right time can turn any match around.
You still ofcourse want somebody dead asap but you need to do it while keeping the rest busy. Higher level players don't tunnel from the start, they look for the oppertunity to do so. Oppertunistic tunneling is very strong. Trying to force it leads to "genrushing". If you watch higher level streamers you'll notice this a lot. They make a snap judgement of when they tunnel. They pretty much never plan it from the start.
This probably won't matter cause you want to believe your own excuse too much but only you is holding you back from becoming better at the game
-"tunneling generators is all i needed to hear."
Both sides tunnel in DBD. If you think it's fine for one side and not the other then you want the game to be unfair.
-"If you want to become better at the game you need to ban those words out of your vocabulary. The only time an actual genrush happens is with multiple bnp's or /and gen perks."
You need a flag to go with that propaganda.
DBD works fine if nobody plays efficiently. If the survivors are efficient and you are not you will get stomped. If the survivors dont tunnel gens and the killer tunnels they get stomped.
I genrush all the time as survivor without genrush perks. It's a mindset where you look at the map and disassemble the 3 gen before it happens. You trade 1 hook for 1 generator and you're out very quickly. Most killers simply cannot handle efficient gen completion with mediocre looping. Nurse and Blight can do whatever they want because they are so much better than every other killer.
You act as if I have no idea what slugging is but I played killer without hooking anyone for a long time.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3394193#Comment_3394193
Yes, it can. You or me being able to may be different, but being completely unable to is false.
You didn't give a definition at all. You just went and pulled numbers. Which went down because people found toys they liked more after they got nerfed. Your insinuating that if the usage numbers dropped significant it got nuked correct?
That sounds condescending all things considered over us not being clear with wording but your welcome?
Lastly:
"DH is stronger now than the old "DH for distance" because you get sprint burst distance on demand."
We were referring to THIS specifically with those questions
-"That sounds condescending all things considered over us not being clear with wording"
I didn't mean to be rude. I just think we can both agree that perks that went from 30 to 6% or lower usage is a very clear indication of "nuked". When they change a perk with the intention of making it a meta perk and then it gets 6% usage - that's an indication the perk sucks.
-"DH is stronger now than the old "DH for distance" because you get sprint burst distance on demand."
I still stand by this quote. DH now is better/stronger for the top 5% of players than the old DH was for most players.
DH in its current form lets you loop throw a pallet and then take a hit - letting you go to a new loop. If the terrain is great you can run 2-3 loops and waste all the pallets. When you're about to get hit you use DH. This last part is the key here because you get the endurance twice.
What if you only get endurance once per "down". In other words if you were hurt and used DH you could get the endurance - but if you were healthy you would only get the endurance the first time and get no speed boost from using DH (just the distance from killer recovery)
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@BougieBlackChick said:
Actually penalize tunneling and camping on your end and stop with the whole “we want players to penalize it.” Before y’all freak, hear me out: Wanting players to penalize tunneling and camping hasn’t worked and hard tunneling and camping is still the META for killers because by their own admission “It’s the easiest and most efficient way to get a 4K.”
You guys say you don’t want people just clinging to the same perks over and over because that’s what makes the game stale right? That’s pretty much what’s happening at low and mid-tier MMR and certainly solo Q you know why? Because survivors are clinging to their chosen same old build, instead of actually having fun and experimenting with different perks and builds, because it’s the only way to keep from being tunneled and camped right out of the game in 2 minutes.
I mostly run at least the same 2-3 perks and then try to play around with a 4th if I feel I can but honestly all the matches I play are the same because the same perks are being run and every killer claims and/or believes they have to tunnel and camp just to get a win or have fun. So every match is tunnel, camp, slug, rinse repeats
So try this: Actually penalize tunneling and camping on your end. I’m not saying to ban those gameplay styles. I’m saying penalize it whether it be with loss of bloodpoints, or loss of a “merciless killer,” pips, whatever it is that the killers personally play for. Force them to try different play styles. Maybe have it be that if the killer doesn’t go a certain distance from hook after a hook, the hook timer doesn’t start. If they are in chase with the same survivor that just got unhooked within 5 -7 seconds, they get no chase BP? I don’t know, just an idea. I’m sure you have a team that can think up stuff too.
NOW to be fair to killers, this is where you come in with the survivor nerfs. This is where you hard nerf META survivor perks so that the killers actually have a shot at being successful without going against OP survivor perks. As one example, as much as I loved the self-heal aspect of COH, I think that nerf was fair. If killers are gonna be forced to lose their easiest and most efficient tactic, they have to be compensated properly for it. This means everyone has to try something different. This means everyone can play around with perks, play around with different play styles and every match isn’t tunnel, camp at 5 gens, slug, rinse repeat therefore survivors knock out gens back to back because tunnel camp slug because gen rushing etc. This is all just a horrible circle jerk of one side does this because the other side does this because the other side does this because the other side… you get the point. That’s why this game is stale and boring. I also agree with the idea of giving survivors other objectives besides gens.
For me, the most fun games I’ve had are with killer chases, the mind games, cat and mouse with trying to get that last gen popped and each side trying to mind game the other. Add to that the aspect of actually being afraid of the killer, that adds to the tension of the match.
My point is tho, as long as tunneling and camping are the chosen tactics for the majority of killers and they’re given free reign to do it, no amount of perk nerfs or buffs you try to do is going change anything. Now there are of course those killers who will always tunnel or camp no matter what. Because it’s the easiest thing to do and all they care about is winning with the least amount of challenge possible. However, I believe that a lot of killer players and survivor players out there actually want a game that’s a challenge but also fun and has a lot of variety, and I think this would be the best way to do it. Just my opinion.
"Actually penalize tunneling and camping"
How do you plan to prevent survivors tunneling generators?
The problem with your post is that you want to eradicate killer tunneling and have no idea that survivor tunneling exists or is even a problem.
I'll let you in on a secret. When playing Killer I tunnel because the survivors tunnel my gens.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393943#Comment_3393943
"That's not a valid opinion for people who play killer often vs good players. Everyone I know and the big streamers share the opinion that those perks are dead."
And thats their OPINION . Can it be used? Yes. Can it work against your opponents effectively? Yes. Is everyone gona have the same opinion? Not a chance in hell.
Lets decide on a definition of "Nuked" before we go on with this otherwise its gona be you say vs us say. We say nuked is "Becomes practially useless [give too little value for the effort] to detrimental [actively helps the opponent or help not at all] to run in an average game". By this definition we would only consider Ruin truly nuked. Each has been hit with the nerf hammer but are still usable and practical enough to run (PR needs testing before we're gona call it.)
"My friends who play at comp level in bully squads had already started planning builds w/o DH. The previous plan where you had to unhook someone would have killed it- and rightly so."
Your friends are not the only ones here playing mate. There would still be people to run it no mater what you and your friends do. Why it even maters is beyond us.
"You're not giving the impression you are a centrist considering you think this change to PR is a buff."
Overall its a nerf, but its a buff from 15% with 4 tokens. Mayhapse we wern't clear so that may be on us.
"What question do you feel I avoided that was worth mentioning?"
How pray tell do you get SB distance if they failed? How do they get it on first chase without SB itself? How do they get it if legion frenzy stabs them? Admittedly it was abit venting at all the nonsense combined with an annoying day but we would realllly like to know.
-"Can it work against your opponents effectively? Yes"
Will it work well against efficient survivors regularly? No.
-"Lets decide on a definition of "Nuked" before we go on"
We already agree on the definition of Nuked. What we dont agree on is which perks got Nuked. Pop has been Nuked.
Pop went from ~33% usage or more to 6% usage. That's a nuke.
Iron Will went from ~20-30% usage to 4.5% usage. That's a nuke.
Eruption is down to 6% which is once again a Nuke because they intended this to become a meta perk. It should be having a ~30% usage with the "buff" it got recently. Lol.
Right now PR is looking at 23% usage and that's going to get nuked when the patch hits.
"Overall its a nerf [to PR]"
Thank you for being honest.
"How pray tell do you get SB distance if they failed? How do they get it on first chase without SB itself? How do they get it if legion frenzy stabs them? "
You get distance on SB because you pre-ran or because you were holding it at 99%. That's how you use that perk most effectively.
Legion is a pretty stupid killer because much like plague it doesn't matter if you are hurt. Both killers suck at getting the second hit.
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@Mystic_Mizu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3394105#Comment_3394105
Okay, Pain Reso... you're not guaranteed 15% gen regression if the highest gen is below 14%. Is it bad? Absolutely not. And LOL Adrenaline is one of the highest tier perks there is, that's why it's worth the risk running it.
Literally every single perk you use is a gamble because why?
1) You could be facing a killer that has no impact on that perk at all.
2) Could be using a bad map for the intended perk and you don't get the right use out of it.
3) Literally every survivor hook/healing perk can be countered by a camping/tunneling killer, or a killer with the right build. You gonna try and tell me that OTR is a low tier perk? Nope.
You know what I'm saying, you're just trying to nitpick with your own opinions to try to prove me wrong. Not every perk that is a gamble is a low tier perk, and every player with even the slightest knowledge of the game knows that.
-"Adrenaline is one of the highest tier perks there is, that's why it's worth the risk running it."
Adrenaline is definitely worth the risk when you play in a SWF focused on gen rushing. Perks like this would be "ok" if SWF teams had the rule : no character, item, perk or offering repeats.
Survivors can finish the generators in under 3 minutes thanks to the stupidly high number of gen rush perks. And in the same breath more and more of the killer gen regression perks keep getting obliterated - which only increases the value of gen rushing perks.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3394161#Comment_3394161
Then he's a bad Wraith player.
Also, Killers did get basekit STBFL. 2 stacks of it.
With all your bemoaning, I take it you wouldn't care if all the Killer changes from 6.1.0 were reverted
-"Then he's a bad Wraith player."
Ah yes certainly that is the issue. He has nearly 9k hours played and has been playing Wraith for 6 years. He plays DBD for a living - he must be bad at it. LOL.
-"Also, Killers did get basekit STBFL. 2 stacks of it."
So why not give survivors 2 seconds of BT? That's because 2 seconds of BT would not be useful. They could have just made STBFL base kit and it would have made killer a lot more enjoyable.
-"I take it you wouldn't care if all the Killer changes from 6.1.0 were reverted"
Against SWF teams killer was stronger before rather than after 6.1 but became better against solo players until the HuD update.
The upcoming patch will make killer "less unfun" but won't revitalize the role.
To make killer "fun" they need to go through with the second part of the plan. Just to remind you - Step one was to make Solo queue survivors closer to SWF players. The HuD update did that.
Step two was : Buff killers.
So where are the big killer buffs? I'd totally be fine with : here are +2 perk slots.
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@Gwinty said:
This is not only about survivors and "they" did not get everything.
Dead Hard is still nerfed, Med-Kits are still nerfed, Cycle of Healing still got the worst aspect cutted down.
Those are 3 aspects about survivors, one which is basekit that got a straight L out of this patch. Killers only got perks nerfed which can be replaced or you can adapt to the changes. Survivor now need to adapt to another change to their basekit, because let us be real: Most survivor who played to "win" were running a med-kit (green with extra charges). Also Hillbilly got his changes to his add-ons reverted leaving him with a straight buff and Pain Res got a buff (it is still a net-nerf by the way).
Not even most Killers wanted them to go through with the nerf to healing (24 seconds). Most wanted to go for 20 seconds or no changes to altruistic healing at all.
Sure, Cycle of Healing go a buff. But you can adjust to that as a Killer with ease now. Not to mention that with one of the main Boons getting kicked all Hexes are getting a "shadow buff".
If you play a Killer with a strong lethality you can even capitalize from the changes: Bubba going to a Cycle of Healing and getting undetectable somehow along the way and getting the jump on two survivors seems fine, same for Killers like Oni, Hillbilly, Ghostface...you get the idea.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393544#Comment_3393544
This sums up my playstyle with Oni as well as Ghostface: Slap on Lethal Pursuier and go.
I also would always suggest people to run only 1 regression perk (maybe Corrupt Intervention). When I started the game I ran max regression + NoeD like the noob I was. This hindered my growth with certain Killers very much as the perks carried be to good. Once I went away from that and down to a single regression perk I was forced to get better and it helped me a lot...
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393536#Comment_3393536
You ignore that Killers also got a buff by making their pallet breaks faster.
Survivors also got less of a speed boost after each hit and most importantly: +10 seconds of generator time, adding up to around +50 seconds over the match and improving all percentage based regression perks...
I am quit happy as a Killer.
-"You ignore that Killers also got a buff by making their pallet breaks faster."
Truetalent made a video on this using Wraith to have maximum speed pallet breaking and even with something like 100% faster breaking it made no difference in chase. So the 10% pallet break speed was literally nothing.
"Survivors also got less of a speed boost after each hit and most importantly: +10 seconds of generator time, adding up to around +50 seconds over the match and improving all percentage based regression perks..."
Survivors also got base kit borrowed time - which was a meta perk. But now almost nobody uses BT because the base kit effect is so strong.
Every unhook gives the survivors +10 seconds. So while survivors "lost" 10 seconds across five generators they "gained" 10 seconds off the hook about 8 times per match. That's a net loss of 30 seconds.
The devs could have given killer base kit Fire Up or base kit Save the Best for last. Instead they gave paltry buffs that basically change nothing in the grand scheme of things.
Survivors now have 5 perks each thanks to base kit BT and the killer has 4 perks. Overall patch 6.1 was one step forward and two steps back for killer.
@Caiman said:
Remember when this was supposed to be a meta shake-up?
Exactly. DH needs to go down in usuage to where Pop is right now - dead.
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@MikeStev said:
Breakdown has been buffed since patch 3.6.0, but until now, I still saw so few random survivors using it (SEA REGION).
Breakdown can destroy a hook for 3 minutes, which is a good perk for countering scourge hooks. This is the reason I don't get why pain resonance is getting nerfed, but it already happens, so whatever.
Breakdown can also somehow counter camping, forcing the killer to move to another hook, and maybe another survivor can help bodyblock or sabotage the new hook where the killer is going.
And for the worst-case scenario, if you're getting tunnel-hard, you can just bring killer to the 2 hook that has been destroyed by breakdown, wasting killer time (because the other hook is just too far), or postpone your sacrifice.
Imagine 4 SWF using Breakdown
I'm just wondering why "active perks" like self-care or dead hard are so popular but "passive perks" like breakdown are unpopular. What I mean by passive is that you don't need to do anything to activate the perk, getting save from hook then boom, hook destroy.
Please give me your opinion about this, thanks
using Quilbot for grammar check
-"Breakdown can destroy a hook for 3 minutes, which is a good perk for countering scourge hooks. "
For Breakdown to have real value you need to make sure everyone has it. And then usually what happens is player 1 gets tunneled out and killed. The next player gets slugged and then it's 2 active people vs the killer for the rest of the game.
"I'm just wondering why "active perks" like self-care or dead hard are so popular but "passive perks" like breakdown are unpopular."
Self care works for me if I have it. Breakdown as a strategy only works if 4 people use it. Or if you double down and the team has things like flip flop/tenacity/breakout on some of the team.
What if the killer had planned on slugging everyone to death? Your entire strategy is nullified.
Also there's the problem that to make Breakdown work you need to bring 4 of the purple Oak offering. Well that makes my game crash *wink wink*.
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Deadlock has never been in the shrine and that's one reason it has remained untouched. If you didn't buy Pinhead then you don't have it.
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@Skill_issue said:
survivors wanting fun games(as well as killers) usually state that chases are the most fun part of the game.
so what are your thoughts on how we can balance the game so that killers don't lose gens quickly during chases and make it fun for survivors so that multiple hooks are feasible?
would making pain res (at 15 percent) pop on every hook be seen as to op or even a basekit jolt/deadlock for killers? how about smaller map sizes and less god pallets so there are more mind gameable chases (reducing bloodlust gains to compensate)?
i would love to hear from both killer and survivor mains to see if there is a compromise on how to achieve this.
It's pretty easy :
- Make all killers have no less than a 15% power difference than nurse.
- Make all killers have a movement power that defeats shift+w or limit all maps to be smaller than 9000m².
- Do not allow tiles to be heavily linked : The car park in Garden of Joy and Coal tower are extreme examples where linked tiles break the game. Allow tiles to be linked only by a pallet that creates dead zones when used.
- Limit the number of god pallets to 1-2 per map. Limit the number of pallets on any map to no more than 14.
- Make all killers have an "instant" pallet break option. Once upon a time Blight/Demo didn't break pallets base kit (/gasp). Both killers sucked when they couldn't use their power to do that. We could for example rework brutal strength so that it also allows a killer to lunge at a pallet to instantly break that pallet once every 60 seconds. For killers like Legion you just make iri button base kit and change that addon. For Nemesis you just make T2 the new T1 so he can always break pallets. Change T3 to be a "long" process that makes t3 whips damage+infect on every hit. Make the T2 whip stats be the current T3 whip stats.
- Limit SWF to no character, item, perk or offering repeats. This makes solo queue "better" in that it can choose anything and SWF gets voice coms+efficiency.
- Make all killers have good or better anti loop. If you made all the "no movement" speed killers 120% base speed this would work fine.
- Make all killers have some kind of "base slowdown" or inherent 4v1 pressure.
- Make all killer powers AND their extensions immune to flashlights (this includes Nemesis zombies).
- Give killers some base kit perks or free perk slots. Look at all the gains survivors got with the hud. Remember the plan was buff solo que then buff killers. What are some good options? The killer needs at least 2 strong perks to counter the buffs survivors received. Pick two of the following:
A) Base kit deadlock but now it has "rollback protection" so that if two gens pop at the same time one rolls back to 99% completion. The perk by the same name extends the effect for +30 seconds.
B) Give killers Base kit Fire up with one slight tweak - breaking a pallet does not remove bloodlust. Add: Every dropped pallet (looking at you any means necessary) makes destroying pallets and walls 2% faster.
C) Add new base kit mechanic: kicking a generator makes it unable to be stopped from the regression state for 30 seconds.
D) Give killers basekit No way out. Make the perk by the same name stack the effect twice but with a twist - you proc base kit and then when that ends you can proc the second version granted by the perk. Add : triggering No way out reveals your aura while the gate cannot be opened. If the user has distortion your aura will be revealed until your tokens run out.
E) Add basekit mechanic: survivors cannot escape the trial while crawling unless they have No Mither or have Unbreakable charged.
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@WeaverReaver42 said:
So, I had asked this question in ask the community, but someone suggested I actually put it in general discussion, and I thought that was a pretty good idea!
What are some perks that you think are good in concept, but need a little change or alteration to be worthwhile? In addition, what do you think that change should be?
For me, We're Gonna Live forever is the first thing that comes to mind. I like the idea of rewarding altruism plays and helping people get up from the downed state, however because of how strongly killers are incentivized to pick up immediately- the healing speed bonus isn't worthwhile. Instead of a healing bonus, I think you should be able to spend a token while healing a downed survivor to instantly pick them up with endurance. This would mean you still need to take protection hits and safely unhook survivors in order to use the perk, but now you will actually be able to get value from doing so.
Pop, Ruin, PR and Eruption come to mind.
Make Pop great again: 20% of the total progress.
PR: make it 15% progress and show the survivor that scream
Eruption: make the generator regress 10% and be untouchable to survivors for 35 seconds.
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@smartemarte said:
two of the must unfun killers to play against unless you're a hardcore SWF team...
there is a reason they are go to killers in tournament games and there is a reason some of there addons are banned ....
the issue is not that they are easy to play it's the fact as soon as the player has put the time into learning them they are extremely hard to play against and almost impossible to loop even for tournament players where they are lucky if the killer only gets a 3k. Both of their skill ceilings are far above the top abilities of a survivor meaning you're going down quickly regardless of what you do unless the player messes up.
Add to the fact that solo survivor matchmaking is a joke and you have team mates that go down in 30 seconds it's a complete waste of time.
will inevitably get the "they're easy to loop once you learn" but as I said at the start if you watch tournament matches with tournament teams they are almost always 4k'd vs these two killers.
There is a reason both of them can play without any addons comfortably and win as long as the player has put time into learning the mechanics.
Allow me to play a reverse with some copy pasta.
Two out of thirty one killers are viable against SWF on all maps. Please nerf all maps to be no larger than 9000m².
Nerf SWF so that there can be no character, item, perk or offering repeats in a SWF.
The day that solo queue has an advantage over SWF is the day that SWF starts to feel "balanced".
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@Sonzaishinai said:
In a ironic twist they may actually have made the perk stronger then before.
You need 7 scourge hooks of current PR before you surpass the vallue of the 4 hooks from the new one. And i would say by the time you have 7 hooks you should already have won so what does it matter at that point?
More important then that is that the vallue is more front loaded. The early game is the point killers struggle the most and there is no denying the early game of new PR is stronger then the old one.
2 hooks for 50% vs the old 3 for 45%
The only time time new PR is weaker then current is if you hardcore tunnel one person so all the people who say it's dead are really showing their colors
-"In a ironic twist they may actually have made the perk stronger then before."
Stronger than before would need to be like 40% per use. Why? Because if I hook meg on a scourge hook right now and then tunnel her and hook her again I get 30% in the current system and 25% in the new system.
-"You need 7 scourge hooks of current PR before you surpass the vallue of the 4 hooks from the new one."
Or you play efficiently as killer and get 2 hooks on the same person and get more regression now then you would after the nerf.
-"The only time time new PR is weaker then current is if you hardcore tunnel one person so all the people who say it's dead are really showing their colors"
The only problem is that there is no basekit defense against survivors tunneling your generators. If they tunnel your gens then you need to tunnel them out.
In short you're saying : if survivors loot lots of chests and break dull totems for points then killer game play is fine. While that is a true statement it is not a realistic depiction of efficient survivor gameplay.
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@WinchesterxNL said:
I just read the latest Dev Update on Steam, and it looks to be a decent one.
Honestly, I can get on board with a lot of these changes. But the COH no longer allowing to Self Heal is a bit of an extreme nerf. Especially in a SoloQ, or when running together with Boon Exponential.
Meaning you're able to get up while in the circle, but then you have to wait for someone to come and heal you? Might as well leave Exponential behind and let someone heal me completely.
With that nerf, you essentially throw away the use of another perk altogether, which is a bit of a shame.
While I get wanting to change those.
I'd say have the 24 second rule for Self Healing be part of COH as well then. If you want to nerf it that badly. In addition to the speed up perks for people healing you.
I definitely hope that this change will be taken into consideration for the final update.
-"But the COH no longer allowing to Self Heal is a bit of an extreme nerf."
The point is that you need someone to heal you in the boon. This prevents scenarios where you can indefinitely heal yourself. Survivors quickly and infinitely healing themselves breaks the game.
Let's think back to self care since 2016 for a moment. If heal time is X then self care takes 2x. If two people are healing then that means two people were busy for X healing time (also known as 2X). In other words Self Care was perfectly balanced to two people healing - with the caveat that in the past you could run spine chill and get more checks and great checks used to save 2.4 seconds instead of 1.2 seconds. Even without making any great checks it became clear that when travel time was greater than zero : self care was more efficient.
What is this change going to do? It will force a player off a generator to heal you. This is a healthy change for the game. In theory the heal time will be something like 0.5X but the travel time will make up for the difference. This is actually a very fair way to make CoH viable but not completely broken.
The problem really is that you were accustomed to a completely broken perk and want the game to stay that way. You can have old CoH if I can have 2016 NOED back.
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@FFirebrandd said:
Initially this PTB was looking terrible for both sides. Multiple perks dumpstered along with the healing changes and Billy changes that had nearly everyone up in arms due to just how bad they were.
But now... the Devs posted again. Base heal nerf and Billy nerf are gone which is fantastic. Honestly well done on that. Those shouldn't have ever been proposed. But they didn't stop there. Dead Hard is now looking a lot more akin to a version of Renewal that doesn't require you to heal someone else (aka a whole lot better than initially proposed) and CoH is looking to be useless to solos but very abusable for SWF... so probably a lot like old Object, where you won't see it often but seeing it as killer means you're going to have a terrible game.
Meanwhile... on the killer side they got a minor Pain Res buff that's still looking kinda meh. That's it. Between CoB and Overcharge nerfs and previous nerfs to Ruin, Pop, Thana, and Eruption, a lot of killers are wondering how exactly they're going to get back time spent on chases... and they're not really coming up with anything.
Short story, this is not looking like an even remotely fair patch. Some killers are not happy at all.
To make matters worse, DH could already be made a non issue after the first chase by hitting during base BT... but now killers can also avoid it completely by never letting an unhook happen or by bleeding out anyone they think might have it. Also it can't be used first chase. So well done... DH, one of the most hated survivor perks ever can be completely bypassed by tunneling, camping, or slugging.
In short, if this patch goes live as proposed, I am pretty certain that it will cause even more tunneling, camping, and slugging than ever before. Which is not a good thing.
Significantly buffing Pop Goes the Weasel is the easiest and fastest way to head this off. Firstly, it will make the patch feel more fair so you'll have less killers doing all that out of spite. Secondly, this will give killers an answer to "How do I make up chase time?" That isn't tunneling, slugging, or camping. Thirdly, Pop doesn't really work well with any of those three. To get value out of Pop, you need to hook so no slugging, then go to a gen to kick it so no camping, and there was probably a survivor at that gen you just kicked so it is more efficient to chase them instead of returning to hook so no tunneling.
Here's me pouring one out for Pop. It was unfairly destroyed and it was a good risk/reward perk that encouraged the killer to chase. You got good value for the perk and that's why nobody uses the current version (or eruption).
@FFirebrandd said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393756#Comment_3393756
They're complaining because it isn't a big win for killers anymore.
Sure, medkits got nerfed, but they'll still be pretty strong. A addonless brown medkit will still save the team 8s and temporarily make the survivor holding it self sufficient. Throw on gel dressings and a heal speed add on and it'll be probably all the healing that survivor needs and save more than 16s.
On the topic of CoH... it is now 100% a dead perk for solos. The issue is that going against solos aren't the games killers worry about. They worry about facing coordinated SWFs... and the fact that CoH literally had its healing buff multiplied by 4 is crazy and hands a new tool to SWFs on a silver platter. That'll be an absolute massive loss for Killers when it does show up. Much like old Object of Obsession was.
-"They're complaining because it isn't a big win for killers anymore."
Let's look at the big picture since the 6.1 patch.
-What got better for killer: you get 2 stacks of STBFL.
-What got better for survivor: You get free base kit tunnel protection with BT (to the point where BT is a dead perk that nobody takes). This free +10 seconds of protection gives more time than the +10 seconds required to finish a generator.
What killer perks have been obliterated? Pop, Ruin, PR, and Eruption are all effectively deleted.
What survivor perks got obliterated? Iron Will+ Spine Chill.
What survivor perks got nerfed but are still usable in certain situations : DH, DS, CoH,
Medkits will be nerfed but toolboxes are still OP (looking at you hyperfocus).
The meta shift overall deleted instant regression from killer. So now regression is kicking generators. This meta encourages camping and 3 gen tactics.
Just as a reminder: Pop encouraged chases and so did Eruption.
Eruption could have been changed so that when it went off it made generators regress for ~35 seconds and nobody would be able to interrupt them during that time. That would have been fair AND encourage the killer to have the safety to commit to a chase.
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@hailxsatanxeveryxday said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393270#Comment_3393270
I get that response a lot. I grew up in an era when internet forum posts were commonly as long as book chapters. The internet was better that way.
You need to start reading books. You have no idea how much brighter the world gets as your reading comprehension starts to improve.
I'm not immune. I've been lazy lately, but I've been using techniques I learned from a speech therapist and starting to read novels again, and it's helping.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393307#Comment_3393307
Sleep deprivation on and off to the point of psychosis. Finally popped some of my zyprexa (nasty #########!) which I won't touch under normal circumstances, which knocked me out for 20 hours and left me feeling groggy for another 12, but I'm feeling a little better now.
How are you?
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393347#Comment_3393347
You're wrong about everything.
- Right. Activating "basekit BT" is the idea. You want to hit them before the BT timer is up.
- I've been running Forced Penance in almost every game lately. I Love it with a capital L when survivors try to bodyblock.
- Even if you're not running Forced, no, they won't have time to "run off and mend" if you're even halfway paying attention to the screen. Stay on the main target; the other survivors will follow you and give you free stuff.
- Survivors who try to 3-man bodyblock don't know what they're doing. It doesn't provide much benefit, and it's too easy to get snowballed. If you're still doing that, you're probably still in low MMR. I very rarely see teams that do that anymore, and it usually doesn't end well for them.
- Even if survivors B through D all jump in front of me and take hits - which would, mind you, make me very happy, since they're all off of gens and now injured - that isn't going to buy enough time for survivor A to mend, and even if it did, it's okay, because the slowdown and the extra hits/downs I got out of it are probably worth it.
I'll tunnel off the hook if it's an appropriate thing to do in that situation. Rendering my gen kicks completely useless and not giving me any reason to leave the hook while simultaneously making hard tunneling the only counter to DH means I'm going to hard tunnel.
This is how the game wants me to play, as far as I can tell.
I'm not out to ruin survivors' fun, but if the optimal way to play makes them feel like I'm giving them a big middle finger, that doesn't bother me, either.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393480#Comment_3393480
We'll see, but I don't think it's a "slight chance".
A lot of the games I've lost recently featured three or four DHs, so I think you're understating how devastating that perk can be against low mobility and M1 killers. Hitting someone off of the hook can be the difference between that survivor dead before the last gen and losing the game.
And since gen regression is gone, it's the most optimal play in most circumstances.
If I stop seeing 1-4 Dead Hards every single match after the update drops, that's that, but I think that the prophesied "Sprint Burst meta" is going to give way only to the "Dead Hard Meta, Chapter III".
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393504#Comment_3393504
I think I've made several posts on this forum to the effect of, "I camp and tunnel because it makes life easier for me". I don't have to justify it.
This post isn't about that, though; this is about a very specific meta change that has a very specific and effective counter. Even people who don't tunnel and camp as a matter of course are going to see this as an option, because it is one.
Yeah, "I camp and tunnel because I have to" is a common copium cop-out, but so are "camping and tunneling is always a cop-out" and "you were probably going to camp and tunnel, anyway"; those are just ways of dancing around the fact that there are times when it's absolutely the correct thing to do, sometimes as the result of some change to a gameplay mechanic or another.
I'm also trying to lightly point out the absurdity of introducing a gameplay mechanic with the stated intention of discouraging a gameplay strategy that it then goes on to directly encourage.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393508#Comment_3393508
You're partially correct about this. If you're not putting any pressure and survivors are smart enough to do gens, tunneling can bite you in the ass. It's about knowing when to do it.
I'm just saying that if you didn't notice an exhaustion perk, assuming DH stays meta (and of course it will), you gain more by proxy camping the hook (and "proxy camping" means you run off to go pressure a gen real quick while you wait for the unhook).
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393511#Comment_3393511
That's a good point, but if they're wasting an entire perk slot just to use 1-3 of their perks suboptimally, so be it. That probably works out in the killer's favor overall.
If I start seeing this every game, I may very well just starting hitting everyone right off of hook, but I'm not all that worried since it's a pretty bad strategy.
-"Survivors who try to 3-man bodyblock don't know what they're doing. It doesn't provide much benefit, and it's too easy to get snowballed. If you're still doing that, you're probably still in low MMR. I very rarely see teams that do that anymore, and it usually doesn't end well for them."
I can say in my personal games this is not true. I often play against people with multiples of 5,000 hours. I saw a game from CM winter recently that shows exactly where this idea fails.
If the survivors have green medkits and a boon then they can cycle hits no problem. This "loophole" is getting closed and that won't be a thing anymore.
The only problem is that I like to run STBFL on a killer that can keep my stacks forever. Punching someone with 5 8 stacks benefits the killer even with mega boons/ green kits. This works because most survivors don't expect a killer to play "attrition" mode. A green medkit right now is great but it runs out of charges.
If the killer can't run STBFL then cycling hits can allow a survivor to get away -depending on the map.
-"A lot of the games I've lost recently featured three or four DHs, so I think you're understating how devastating that perk can be against low mobility and M1 killers."
Most of my losses are against DH and boons. The only time this isn't the case is when I get a complete BS map and the survivors start the game by breaking the only viable 3 gen on the map.
"-"I camp and tunnel because I have to" is a common copium cop-out"
If the survivors play efficiently then you must mirror their aggression or you lose. You won't find most streamers posting the game they got 1-3 hooks and the enemy team got a 4 man escape because it makes them look bad. The reality is they should because it shows the potential that even someone with 9k hours can get floored by survivor teams who make essentially 1-2 mistakes per game (and usually minor ones at that).
Anyone who says otherwise can take my challenge. Play a m1 killer with no mobility/pallet break power and hook each player once before you can ever hook someone twice on a map that is 10,500-11,000m². You're going to have a bad time when the try hard SWF with best in slot items shows up. And of course you can't hook anyone three times until you have hooked each player twice.
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@hailxsatanxeveryxday said:
If there was one thing that might have salvaged this update even after the healing nerfs were reverted, it was the death of DH.
Now that that's clear that that won't be happening ("a powerful reward for those who have earned it", they said), and it will instead be just as powerful as before, except that it can't be used during first chase, killers need a solution. Luckily, we have one:
If you don't see an exhaustion perk during the first chase, proxy camp the hook and hit them as soon as they're unhooked.
It's not ideal, but it still means that they can't use DH at pallets/windows later on in chase, and it's a legitimate counter. Ironically, BHVR's stated intention in buffing the perk was that killers would be less inclined to do this exact thing when it's the only counter, but hey.
If it turns out they didn't have DH after all, at least you're going to get a survivor out of the game early, and it's still likely that they might not have enough time to get to a safe loop by the time they're downed again.
(PR is still C-tier even at 25%; feel free to ask me why.)
I appreciate your enthusiasm brother but why would I not be tunneling the first person I hooked 100% of the time anyway?
@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393069#Comment_3393069
I'm playing the game to win. And with these changes, the counter to dead hard still remains to be, hard tunnel the dead hard guy off the hook, going out of your way to hit them right off of it, or quickly, so they get the deep wounds. Then you only deal with one health state.
Instead, dead hard should either be entirely reworked, or it should have to be EARNED in a way that DISCOURAGES tunneling, and actively encourages healthy gameplay from both sides.
My general proposal is to keep dead hard as is, but it works like mettle of man, so no deep wound shenanigans. Then make it so dead hard is not active, then if you are injured for 30 seconds, it activates and lets you use it. Once you heal, or are downed, it deactivates. This rewards killers for downing survivors quickly in a chase, and encourages survivors to play well (can't just hold w) and actually mindgame the killer.
-"I'm playing the game to win. And with these changes, the counter to dead hard still remains to be, hard tunnel the dead hard guy off the hook"
That's a great strategy if you are using STBFL on a killer that can safely keep the stacks. Most killers that are good in chase/map pressure can't do that.
"Instead, dead hard should either be entirely reworked"
Dead hard would be "fine" if you needed to be unhooked to activate it. That would give you two uses per game. If you can unlock its activation by unhooking someone it might still be "ok" if you only got a max of 2 DH tokens per game. That's the problem though - you can potentially use it a lot more than two times.
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@Deathstroke said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3392927#Comment_3392927
25% regression is quite a lot but they should increased the amount of scourge hooks 1 or 2. I will probably use pop with it.
Dh is usable now twice so it's pretty big nerf especially when they can't use it in first chase. It could have more counters around pallets though survivors have managed drop pallet after I have baited it out sometimes.
-"25% regression is quite a lot but they should increased the amount of scourge hooks 1 or 2. I will probably use pop with it."
The problem is that in a vacuum yea 25% is a lot. But what kind of progress do you get with Hyperfocus and a BNP with max stacks of stakeout? Oh right that's a hell of a lot more.
-"Dh is usable now twice so it's pretty big nerf especially when they can't use it in first chase"
Actually I think you've come up with the most fair solution : Make DH be something you can only use twice per game and you must be unhooked or unhook someone to unlock those charges.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3392881#Comment_3392881
First only eruption got nuked (and only the annoying part at that) and while pr got nerfed overall (our opinion) it got a decent compensation for it.
Second people would have used DH regardless of which change went through. The newest one at least gives a reason to go for the unhooked instead and protection against killers who wait out the base kit bt.
Third, NEVER did we say it's ok. We just want it to happen less on ALL SIDES.
Lastly you straight avoided our questions.
-"First only eruption got nuked (and only the annoying part at that) and while pr got nerfed overall (our opinion) it got a decent compensation for it."
That's not a valid opinion for people who play killer often vs good players. Everyone I know and the big streamers share the opinion that those perks are dead.
From 6.1 to now these killer perks got nuked : Eruption, PR, Pop, Ruin.
-"Second people would have used DH regardless of which change went through. "
My friends who play at comp level in bully squads had already started planning builds w/o DH. The previous plan where you had to unhook someone would have killed it- and rightly so.
"-Third, NEVER did we say it's ok. We just want it to happen less on ALL SIDES."
You're not giving the impression you are a centrist considering you think this change to PR is a buff.
-"Lastly you straight avoided our questions."
What question do you feel I avoided that was worth mentioning?
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@Sonzaishinai said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393538#Comment_3393538
And here it's fair to point out my last sentence again
The only time time new PR is weaker then current is if you hardcore tunnel one person so all the people who say it's dead are really showing their colors
For the people that don't use the cheese strat of tunneling this is at the least a side grade and arguably a buff.
If you do the actuall optimal strat of hooking survivors in order of A,B,A,C,A you have the exact same gen damage, you have it earlier and you don't have to lose a scourge hook for the killing hook on A anymore.
Despite popular believe it is possible and sometimes even more beneficial to turn the game into a 3v1 asap without hardcore tunneling
-"For the people that don't use the cheese strat of tunneling this is at the least a side grade and arguably a buff."
Survivors tunnel generators and this forces the killer to tunnel one player out of the game. It's not a cheese tactic - it's the only way to catch up because the survivor objective is much shorter to achieve than the killer objective. The only time this is not the case is when survivors massively screw up.
-"If you do the actuall optimal strat of hooking survivors in order of A,B,A,C,A you have the exact same gen damage"
And the game will be over before you get player C hooked unless you are playing Nurse/Blight. The player you had hooked will have their adrenaline kick in and then all 4 players escape.
-"Despite popular believe it is possible and sometimes even more beneficial to turn the game into a 3v1 asap without hardcore tunneling"
Why don't you show me your tactics in action with some riveting Doctor play. He's "so good" in chase and has "amazing" slowdown. Not to mention he is completely shut down by Shift+W. I hope by the way you can read the sarcasm.
The devs made the only perks that work for gen regression be kick perks. So that means you need to hook your quarry next to the gen you want to protect and stand there as it ticks down.
The devs could change the game at any time by giving killer Deadlock base kit. Make the perk by the same name extend the effect by +30 seconds. It's the very least they can do considering survivors have tunnel protection base kit from BT.
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@mustdogen said:
The game is so unbalanced now,I really don't think anyone would enjoy playing killer in high level right now.
And this game would be so unbalanced is not only the DEVS fault but also your fault.
Why? Why could this be your fault?
just see the posting around.
A 16SEC to 24SEC healing nerfed which is far from it need to be nerfed can bring so much post to complain about it.
Just like others survivor nerfed the game should have , don't you see the healing speed is totally broken right now?
16secs is already too short as a reward for hit and run style,and you can make the healing time down to 8 sec by just bring a green medkit.
How fast should killer to find you chace you and give you a hit so they can earn value from hit and run then?
I really don't understand why you can keep complain about these must done nerfed,don't you wondering about why killer don't do hit and run anymore?
Because killer right now really don't have many tool to make killing speed caught up gens speed right now.
Time gaining from healing is so low.
slow gens down perk(s) being nerfed again and again (it is really shocking that with time going, a game's meta could be weaker and weaker )
And with the new HUD for survivor,the time being wasted by survivor themself become even shorter.
killer is really unplayable right now.
4gens done in 3 minutes is normal right now,and you wonder why killer playing 3gen?and even nerfed it?
The gaming is dieing, and all of us are the one pushing it.
-"The game is so unbalanced now,I really don't think anyone would enjoy playing killer in high level right now."
Most of the people who enjoy playing Killer use Nurse and Blight; those two killers are basically in a tier of their own and it changes DBD to be more of a fair contest.
-"Because killer right now really don't have many tool to make killing speed caught up gens speed right now."
Maps are potentially fair for M1 killers when they are smaller than 9000m². You'll notice most of the maps in DBD are much larger than that. So either m1 killers shouldn't play those maps or those maps should be smaller.
"And with the new HUD for survivor,the time being wasted by survivor themself become even shorter."
The new HUD changes came with zero buffs for killer. We heard for years the plan was to first buff solo players to be more like SWF and then buff killers. Where are the killer buffs? Oh thanks for nerfing more of our gen defense perks - there's almost nothing left worth using.
-"killer is really unplayable right now."
You're not wrong. There's a reason before the 6.1 update the game had queues that had something like 45 killers for 4500 survivors. It's the same reason that the killer BP bonus is nearly 100% from 12 pm to 5 am.
"4gens done in 3 minutes is normal right now,and you wonder why killer playing 3gen?and even nerfed it?"
This is what survivors want and the devs gave it to them. Survivors get tunnel protection (free base kit BT) and the killer gets no gen tunnel protection - because survivors wouldn't like it. Deadlock should have been given base kit to killers and the perk by the same name should have extended the effect for +30 seconds (60 total). By the way : Deadlock has never been in the shrine.
With the current game speed there is no other way to play a killer besides Nurse/Blight without tunneling the first person out. Survivors hate this but they pushed the game to this point and they are the ones to blame because that's the only way you can play if you want to win games as other killers.
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@KerJuice said:
The game is not survivor sided- it’s SWF sided. Come join me in solo que and you’ll wonder where the potatoes we get as teammates are hiding, when you que up for killer.
Also, matchmaking doesn’t help either. I’d rather wait 5 mins to get fairer matches than insta-load into lobbies vs. bully squads with 2K hours or vs. a 2K killer with 20 hour teammates. 😑
-"The game is not survivor sided- it’s SWF sided"
Can we not start with this false rhetoric again?
If Garden of Joy is not survivor sided then why do people always pick that map when they want an easy game? The same goes for The Game, Ormond, Farm maps and the Knight Map.
The rules for DBD are stacked against killer. The better you play as a survivor the more this becomes easy to notice. Why do "god pallets" exist? It's to literally force the chase to end. The only killers who get to ignore pallets are extremely hard to use so people consider that "fine". That's not ok. Does killer have anything equating to god pallets where they get an automatic win in chases? They get nothing for free.
While it is true that SWF has a bigger advantage over solo play - good solo players will stomp you as killer if they are efficient and you are not.
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@woundcowboy said:
It’s dead. The perk was already not great because it relies on rng. Now it has even more BS conditions attached.
I found that PR was only viable on killers that already benefited heavily from AGI - like trapper. In short you needed a perk to make sure you were going to get to use your perk. That's messed up.
PR is dead and nobody is going to use it unless they forgot to read the patch notes. To balance out being once per game you would need to make every single hook be a scourge hook AND the effect would need to be something like 40% regression.
@Sonzaishinai said:
In a ironic twist they may actually have made the perk stronger then before.
You need 7 scourge hooks of current PR before you surpass the vallue of the 4 hooks from the new one. And i would say by the time you have 7 hooks you should already have won so what does it matter at that point?
More important then that is that the vallue is more front loaded. The early game is the point killers struggle the most and there is no denying the early game of new PR is stronger then the old one.
2 hooks for 50% vs the old 3 for 45%
The only time time new PR is weaker then current is if you hardcore tunnel one person so all the people who say it's dead are really showing their colors
There is no scenario where this is a buff to PR except in someone's XML spreadsheet fantasy world.
PR was one of those perks that worked well when backing up another gen regression perk. It worked very well for example with Jolt. You down someone working on a generator who was hurt and the generator explodes. You hook them and the generator explodes again. Removing 15% of a 90 second geneator does basically nothing when the survivor can just hold the button and keep working across the map.
Lest you forget this perk used to show the killer which generator you were working on. Essentially this is an extension of the 6.1 rework and is the final nerf to the perk (because nobody is going to touch it after this).
-"You need 7 scourge hooks of current PR before you surpass the vallue of the 4 hooks from the new one "
Actually you only need 2 hooks because you can't use this perk more than once per person. If I hook meg twice on the same hook then I get more regression now than I will post patch.
What you seem to be ignoring is that DBD is in a state where you must tunnel one player out of the game before the survivors break your 3 gen. You hook the same player three times and what did you get for 2/3 hooks? You got nothing.
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@Seraphor said:
CoH: still nerfed
DH: still nerfed
Medkits: still nerfed
Seriously, this is like when they teased basekit Unbreakable, a completely broken mechanic, and all the survivor mains had a meltdown when they realised their new OP toy wasn't actually coming out on live servers.
Just because you were teased with a lottery win, doesn't mean the raise in your wages isn't still a net positive.
Btw, weren't notorious killer mains complaining that the healing changes were a bad thing because it would just cause more genrushing?
-"CoH: still nerfed, DH: still nerfed, Medkits: still nerfed"
Let's look at the big picture since the 6.1 patch.
What killer things got Obliterated?
Pop, PR, Eruption, Ruin.
What killer things got better : 2 stacks of stbfl for free (make the perk base kit /cough).
What things for survivor got Obliterated?
CoH and medkits got nuked but they 100% deserved it. Green medkits healing in 8 seconds is beyond stupid when it takes 20-30 seconds to get a hit vs a strong player.
What got better for Survivor?
They got 10 seconds of BT base kit so now nobody runs BT. Survivors always have 5 perks now and the killer has 4 perks. That means the game is 20 perks vs 4 perks.
What got a slap on the wrist twice?
DH will still be a stupid strong perk. It needs to get equal treatment to what happened with Ruin, PR or Eruption to the point that its usage goes down to 5% or lower.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3392749#Comment_3392749
You're not supposed to benefit from DH as killer, it's a survivor perk! Do you expect every survivor perk to be balanced to No Mither/Autodidact levels?
Seriously, how do you expect to balance DH with Lithe/Sprintburst when DH gives a 35% shorter burst, requires a hookstate to be used, and can easily be outplayed or missed?
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3392873#Comment_3392873
DH's effect being an exhaustion perk is a con to DH. Remember that you can also get endurance from BT, OTR, and MoM.
But again, as I mentioned, you either take DH for 2x on-hit sprint, or take SB/Lithe for a longer sprint + 1x on-hit sprint. How do you want to balance this out if you took away the on-hit sprint from DH?
"-You're not supposed to benefit from DH as killer, it's a survivor perk! Do you expect every survivor perk to be balanced to No Mither/Autodidact levels?"
Why does Dying Light buff survivors. DH could have been balanced around something like : using it gives the killer an emblem that does whatever for the rest of the game. Maybe it could be a 1% permanent movement speed boost if they hit you when you use DH the first time.
-"DH's effect being an exhaustion perk is a con to DH. Remember that you can also get endurance from BT, OTR, and MoM."
MoM was stupid broken and they nerfed it. DH has needed years to let survivors abuse it before it was tapped on the wrist. Nobody uses OTR with DH as it ends up with exactly the same result - the killer just hits you 1/2 a second after your feet hit the floor from a hook. That's what I do.
"How do you want to balance this out if you took away the on-hit sprint from DH? "
Remove the movement speed effect on DH then it will only work when you DH to make a vault or pallet. There will be no more "free distance" from DH. The only distance you get is with the recovery time of the killer.
Since you seem so keen on STBFL countering DH this makes the most sense.
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@Trollinmon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3392927#Comment_3392927
But pop also had the downside of making your chase weaker since the survivor would leave and you had to either make your chase longer or forgo the kick.
I don't find myself getting really unlucky with PR. Games once in a blue moon will have really bad hook spawns on maps like swamp, but in general I can usually get a handful of hooks normally. This changed version would actually be buffed in those scenarios since getting even 3 different survivors on a scourge hook is equal to 5 in the current version. I've also experienced games with old pop where I just wouldn't get much value from the perk.
Not being able to use an exhaustion on your first chase is a pretty big downside. If you don't see them use an exhaustion then that also tells you they most likely have DH. Feels like a fairly large nerf. Is there any reason to ever use the perk over Lithe or SB?
-"But pop also had the downside of making your chase weaker since the survivor would leave and you had to either make your chase longer or forgo the kick."
Pop rewarded you for finishing multiple chases. The current meta rewards tunneling. The survivors decided they like tunneling. I never had this as an issue after using Pop for a long time.
-"I don't find myself getting really unlucky with PR. "
I played a game tonight vs some real tryhards in a swf who picked a corn map. I was playing MM for a daily. Using PR I got maybe 4/10 hooks to use my ability. If it had been once per person it would have been used like twice. That's a hell of a nerf. If every hook is made white then sure maybe make the perk do 40% progress and be once per game.
-"Not being able to use an exhaustion on your first chase is a pretty big downside. "
While you are technically correct the problem is that later in the game you can once again have the "third health state". DH would be fine if they made it so that once you DH you play the game broken.
Is there any reason to ever use the perk over Lithe or SB?
Tons of people want to use all of the exhaustion perks. I Still say make SWF have the rule : no repeats on characters, items, perks or offerings. That way everyone takes a different perk and it's not a big deal. If you want the freedom to bring anything then play solo - that's a fair compromise when solo play has an advantage over SWF and vice versa.
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@Trollinmon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3392881#Comment_3392881
What would make PR obliterated next patch? You don't always get a scourge hook on each down, regression is larger making the times where you get the scourge hook to have a higher chance for it to be impactful, and the raw value of this perk only really goes down when you get 12 procs of PR in a game. Isn't the change only gut it if you camp and tunnel with it?
Pop used to give me 6-9 uses per game which made the survivor objective 2-3 minutes longer.
PR already has a RNG element where it was strong some games and did nothing other games. Limiting it to once per player per game will make nobody use it.
They could have just said : DH is usable once per game and nobody would use it anymore.
DH gives multiple players massive time wasting potential. Killer perks that do the same thing get obliterated.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3392669#Comment_3392669
How pray tell do you get SB distance if they failed? How do they get it on first chase without SB itself? How do they get it if legion frenzy stabs them?
How the ever loving hell are people going nuts against this?
We get you want to kill the perk but the nuclear option isn't an answer for balance.
-"We get you want to kill the perk but the nuclear option isn't an answer for balance."
So it's ok to obliterate perks like Eruption and Pain Res but the sky will fall if DH gets an equal treatment to the point where : NO ONE WILL USE IT.
That's the definition of an unfair game where one side gets preferential treatment. Killer perks get obliterated and survivor perks get a slap on the wrist.
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@MrPsych said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3392715#Comment_3392715
Then don't hit the survivor. So many people using Dead Hard telegraph their use of the perk by literally ramming in you.
Personally I always fall for it because I'm super trigger happy, but that ain't the survivor's fault now... or is it? Use quick attacks against DH users, these are far harder to anticipate.
-"Then don't hit the survivor."
Lol right... great advice.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3392715#Comment_3392715
No you don't.
Are you talking about the on-hit sprint? Because that's not unique to DH. People who use SB or Lithe will get that too when they become injured.
Either you use SB/Lithe and get one on-hit sprint, or you use DS and you get two on-hit sprints. You are trading SB/Lithe for an on-hit sprint.
Except DH is hard to land.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3392713#Comment_3392713
Then bring STBFL if it bothers you that much. You can't expect DH to give the exact same value result as Lithe and Sprint Burst when the latter two are infinitely easier to use and far more consistent. (And now DH also costs a hook state to use)
-"Are you talking about the on-hit sprint? Because that's not unique to DH."
Name another exhaustion perk where you get sprint burst from the killer hitting you twice. Oh right - there isn't one. This is where the "third health state" problem comes from.
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@GlamourousLeviathan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3392669#Comment_3392669
I agree, Dead Hard wasn't nerfed back then. It was more difficult to use but it gave you WAY more value if you got usage out of it. In that sense it is better on some situations and weaker on other, not a bit like Ruin and PGTW nerf which basically just nuked the perks.
Don't forget Pain Resonance. Making the perk work 4 times per game needs to have the effect be extreme with a value closer to 40% reduction on a generator or it isn't worth using.
Many of the best killer perks have been essentially deleted. Most of the survivor changes end up not happening or end up being minor.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3392596#Comment_3392596
So what should it do? Waste 14 seconds and then give the survivors nothing? What is this genre of 'yeah, this perk is waaaay more conditional than X, but that doesn't mean it should get to do marginally more than X when its conditions are met' complaints?
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3392669#Comment_3392669
DH doesn't give movement speed.
-"DH doesn't give movement speed."
When you gain the endurance effect from using DH you get a speed boost.
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DH is stronger now than the old "DH for distance" because you get sprint burst distance on demand.
DH should give endurance but no movement speed buff. The problem is that it has always given better distance than both Lithe and Sprint Burst and as a result lets you waste more time.
Look at what happened to Eruption - the core effect that made it worth using got obliterated.
DH should get an equal treatment to where it goes down to 1-5% usage among top players.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3392472#Comment_3392472
At the very least they could have made the rule : no more than 1 player gets DH from an unhook. If two people could get it from an unhook give it to the player that just got unhooked.
For the update’s release, we have changed Dead Hard to instead activate when you are unhooked or unhook yourself. This way, the unhooked Survivor becomes less of a clear target for the Killer.
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If both survivor has dead hard equipped, both dead hard are activated. honestly the idea that dead hard change encouraged tunneling was propaganda because a killer can hit a survivor to put them into deep wound which disables dead hard. The change does nothing prevent that, so expect people to keep doing that anyway. it was mostly propaganda to get dead hard buffed. It worked so I cannot argue with it.
Before 6.1 we had people pinging the DBD server and found 45 killers in queue with 4500 survivors. That's a lot of survivors to keep happy but not many killers left who even bother to keep playing.
I have heard about that. I am not entirely sure if that is true or not, but that is a problem. Killer not having fun playing dbd makes killers not want to play killer because the experience is unfun. As I said, Killer fun is generally almost completely ignored in dbd, I think that is mostly problem for high-end killer. Most of killer are balanced around low to mid-level meaning that their abilities are not particularly effective against very strong survivors. that makes killer not fun to play at high-level despite kill-statistics showing otherwise.
-"honestly the idea that dead hard change encouraged tunneling was propaganda because a killer can hit a survivor to put them into deep wound which disables dead hard."
It's not propaganda at all. I hard tunnel at 5 gens and I will always attempt to hit the unhooker and then re-chase the person that just got off the hook. The game is in a state that vs efficient players you have to "skip" the way the devs want you to play as killer to make your objective timer line up with the survivor objective.
-"I am not entirely sure if that is true or not, but that is a problem. Killer not having fun playing dbd makes killers not want to play"
Every day follows a very similar pattern with the BP bonuses. Survivor has a bonus around 6am when all the SWF are sleeping and survivor mains dip their toe into the killing pool.
Around 1-2pm the bonus usually flips to killer and stays that way until 10pm. Around 10pm a few survivors sometimes play killer and the bonus occasionally flips for like an hour and then it's a constant 100% until morning.
When I play killer I can't ever spend more than 1 web before I find a game. When I don't like a lobby I get a new one in seconds. As survivor you wait 2-3 minutes for a game and you take whatever the game gives you or you wait a long time.
@onryowave said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3392266#Comment_3392266
because this game has never been balanced around a third health state despite BHVR's insistent that one remain in the game at all times, it's actually feels terrible to be going for a down and - whoops, third health state, now the survivor can run to another tile! - with zero telegraph or anything. this is on top of gen regression being destroyed but virtually all the changes to healing being reverted, tunneling is going to be the best move for 90% of killers and they won't even be able to do that.
at this point i feel like slapping a PNG of a raised middle finger on the lobby screen when you queue as killer would be cheaper and less time intensive than this game of "here are some changes that will make the game more fun --- oh wait lol some guys on twitter complained jk"
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3392472#Comment_3392472
this is going to be shocking to the guys at BHVR but i am actually not interested in being humiliated and partaking in some 10 viewer twitch streamer's killer bullying compilation, so i will not be playing DBD if these changes go live. enjoy the queue times!
The "third health state" problem would be easily fixed if they added one small tweak to DH.
"After you use it once you remain broken for the rest of the game."
That would make it actually be high risk/high reward. Or they could make the perk not give movement speed but still give endurance. Either would be "fine" and an equal treatment to what they did with eruption.
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I'd like to see Boons get "fair" treatment to hexes.
When a killer kicks a boon the bones are destroyed base kit.
OR let killers re-ignite hexes as long as the bones are not destroyed (but reset any tokens - along that line give undying 1 token that is used once and then it poofs).
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@Marik1987 said:
BHVR wants customers who buys their stuff. Its after all a company which works at this game to make money.
DBD stops being a game people can play if nobody wants to play killer.
As a role Killer has been kept 1 step away from miserable for the majority of its lifespan.
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@Bwsted said:
Regardless of the various points of contention, it's pretty clear they don't have a clear way to balance the perk with its current effect. It should just be reworked to do something different and call it a day.
No more than 1 person at most should get DH activated per unhook. If the player unhooked has DH they get priority.
Or they could just make DH give endurance but no sprint burst.
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The least they could have done was made it so that no more than 1 person per unhook gets DH. If the person being unhooked has DH they get priority.
Or they could have made it so that DH offers endurance but no movement speed buff when used.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
BVHR is pretty survivor bias. so I was expecting DH to get a buff. It was just gut feeling.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3392363#Comment_3392363
generally speaking, BVHR tend to prioritize survivor fun above all else. The PTB was just really strange because its only time that I have ever witness changes that lower survivor's fun factor. the gen-kicking perks that encourage 3 gen gameplay is not fun for survivor. that is kinda why they are removing it.
The problem with this strategy about keeping 4/5 players happy is that almost nobody wants to play killer. This has been the rule rather than the exception for ~6 years.
They had hoped the 6.1 update would change things and the truth is that it just didn't. Before 6.1 we had people pinging the DBD server and found 45 killers in queue with 4500 survivors. That's a lot of survivors to keep happy but not many killers left who even bother to keep playing.
At the very least they could have made the rule : no more than 1 player gets DH from an unhook. If two people could get it from an unhook give it to the player that just got unhooked.
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@WeakestNurseMain said:
I'm definitely not the first person to think this, but let's say hypothetically that the following changes were made:
After being unhooked:
You can not interact with the killer or their power, this is deactivated when you perform a conspicuous action, or when another survivor is hooked.
Of course a lot of killers would need buffs to compensate, but assuming they were brought up to the level of being able to 12 hook everyone to death, would this be good for the game or not?
I'm thinking maybe this would remove an element of strategy from the game, but for casual players(the majority of the playerbase) this change would be very welcome after everyone gets adjusted.
What changes would you make so that it is impossible for survivors to tunnel generators?
It needs to go both ways.