DBDVulture
DBDVulture
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@FootMan2893 said:
It's an OG pick that has been on the back burner for years. Despite that it still remains a favorite of mine. Could you make it an aura reading perk instead of a noise notification? With gen regression constantly getting nerfed I don't see why we couldn't get some large buffs to information perks, especially niche ones.
Spies even as an aura perk would not be worth using without significant changes. Why?
The perk had a triple nerf and has never recovered.
- Crow placement overall got massively reduced.
- Crow triggers went from 8m to effectively 0-1m.
- Crows were allowed to be ducked past.
If you wanted to make it an aura perk then make it map wide and it would still be "meh".
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@Coffeecrashing said:
I can’t believe Dead Hard got such a tiny nerf.
Dead Hard has been the #1 complained about survivor perk for months, and the new nerf still allows survivors to easily get multiple uses per game.
How is this fair at all? All the good gen kicking regression perks got massive nerfs, but dead hard gets such a small nerf that I might still need to suffer through it every game?
I assumed this was satire... and my friend linked me the patch decisions.
DH needed more of a nerf. It's really that simple. It remains high risk high reward. It probably should only give 1.5 seconds of sprint burst or maybe just give endurance and no sprint burst.
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@Sava18 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3391855#Comment_3391855
True didn't do anything special in the blight matchup and blight was sub par based on the entirety of the first chase. What's the point of this? That blight was wasting so many rushes. Starting rushes before it was good on Lery's. Not waiting out easy dh in slam or bumping one more time when true wasn't ready for it.
True was literally just holding w and breaking LoS and the blight was too meh to do anything about it. Yeah for sure that Blight was at the same level I was a month into the killer. I can't deny that breaking LoS and making distance on Lery's is decent vs blight but he literally did nothing special in terms of playing vs blight. Seemed like playing vs Nurse game play and was rewarded for it because the blight was only decent.
You're right but it goes to show that hope is not immediately lost.
He has several games in the last week or so that are better but I can't be bothered to spoon feed. He can go find them.
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@Mystic_Mizu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3391863#Comment_3391863
Funny enough, I've never had a Nemesis tunnel me... *knock on wood*
Nemesis gets more of a benefit than most killers by tunneling.
Most killer's cant even the odds.
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@Canas said:
I played two matches today and both were marked by abhorrent bullying by the survivors, I simply couldn't bother playing any further after this.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/9OABVK7J2XUR/1.jpg
The matchmaking and map design were so blatantly survivor sided that it took me four gens to secure my first hook. With no other option but to camp I kept hooktrading just to end up with a 1K anyway. It was an extremely onesided experience and to make matters worse they verbally abused me for being unable to compete against these sort of odds.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/VGGBTU62YGML/2.jpg
Another unwinnable match, once again the survivors were playing like a sweat-hitsquad while I was struggling to down anyone. Circle of Healing completely nullified any damage I put out. In the end Nancy even had the audacity to ask me if I feel ashamed for losing to the survivors. It's absolutely abhorrent how survivors like these full-knowingly abuse their role to bully killer players with.
The game is extremely survivor sided in its current state and bullysquads know it damn well. They show no remorse when it comes to exploiting their busted role.
They revel in harassing and insulting the killer while a simple m1 killer player like me can do NOTHING to stop their relentless assault on my sanity. Dead by Daylight is a bully simulator and nothing else.
Bully squads could be 100% prevented with one easy rule:
No repeats of characters, perks or items in a SWF.
The only problem is that the survivor mains go crazy and say you are punishing them for balancing the game.
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@Killing_Time said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3391849#Comment_3391849
Which is so unfortunate because he used to be the most balanced
Billy was great once upon a time... but that was many many years ago.
They did many micro nerfs to his kit as well as having a different level design philosophy to nerf his kit without touching it.
And then they added all the exhaustion nonsense and deleted every viable addon he had.
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Here's a new video with true playing against a Blight.
You won't be able to loop against a Blight like this though unless you understand the limits of the killer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGwWKJldywk -
@Veroles said:
I personally do really enjoy the concept of blight. The idea of it that a killer is able to bounce like a freak against objects is pretty funny to be honest. Nevertheless when you compare blight with other killers, it is absolute ridiculous that almost all addons of this killer have massive strength compared with other killers.
I also have no doubts, that it needs hundreds of hours to get blights true potential. But on the other site i have my struggle to see it as "full acceptable", that when you master this killer perfect all the time that you are always allowed to stomp nearly every lobby. Not sure if that is really something what should be able in a game like this and also that PC users seem to have a massive advantage.
When i play solo queue for example and i get matched against a cracked blight, i can not take this round very serious anyway because that simply does not feel like a real match.
Nevertheless i can understand, that there should be something, what makes very experienced and good coordinated SWF's struggling, otherwise they wouldn't have any challenge anymore.
-"when you compare blight with other killers, it is absolute ridiculous that almost all addons of this killer have massive strength compared with other killers. "
The rule for most DBD killers is that they are garbage until you equip an Iri addon and then they are "scary". Nurse and Blight have a much higher skill ceiling required to play them and therefore some people think that it is "ok" therefore to make them stronger.
I say no. Make all the killers vary in power by no more than 15% and make some easier/harder to use with a slightly higher reward. Blight gets to break pallets base kit and most killers cant get that power w/o an iri addon. So take it away from blight or give it to everyone base kit.
The devs don't want to do that though because then the game "feels bad" to survivors.
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@FMG15 said:
Most of my matches consist of stealthing genrushers that just hold w in chase and of course they have full blown meta perks with BNPs and all that fun stuff. I'm a Billy main that only really cares about chasing and getting some fun plays like curves. But against these survivors it's so boring. They are expressing very little skill in chase, they are no good loopers all they know is how to hold w and pre drop pallets. And the game rewards such a gameplay decision. Nobody really seems to be interested in chase anymore. They are mostly hiding and rushing gens. And I'm one of those people that run no slowdown most of the time so nothing slows them down in doing gens. So despite short chases it feels like it doesn't matter. They still slam those gens in record time because surprise surprise they all run gen builds. Barely anyone is actually interested in chase anymore and I do enjoy playing against those people. I don't have a need to win games but I also hate those types of matches. It sucks out the fun in this game. And I'm not saying "Oh this game is so survivor sided" because thats not what my post is about. But why is someone like me who never tryhards going up against people that are so desperate in winning games to the point where I have no fun anymore?
-"But against these survivors it's so boring. They are expressing very little skill in chase, they are no good loopers all they know is how to hold w and pre drop pallets. And the game rewards such a gameplay decision. Nobody really seems to be interested in chase anymore. They are mostly hiding and rushing gens."
This is the gameplay survivors crave. They want to always feel safe and in control during the chase. You're giving that to them because you're playing Billy. No offense but he's a 2016-18 killer who sucks in the current game build.
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@Robotfangirl67 said:
I mean I can understand why they thought it was strong at first when it came out. But then got nerfed a little bit to were I think it’s more balanced. I mean all you do for it work is to hook people on a specific hook and sometimes those hook’s depending on the map and rng those hooks can be far away from where you are. So anyway all I’m saying is I don’t understand why they think that. I always thought it was more similar to pop but required more work. So yeah why do some people think it needed to be toned down?
The real answer is : survivors don't like it.
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@smartemarte said:
unless you're a hardcore SWF it's a complete waste of time when they use lethal pursuer BBQ etc
people either DC as soon as they go down within a minute or kill themselves on first hook because it's that frustrating and pointless to play against.
the way his mechanics are makes it very hard to dodge and with the addon that instantly refreshes his dash on a hit it makes it inevitable. Again maybe at the top level SWF hardcore it's better (but not by the tournament games i've seen where it's lucky to have 1 survivor escape) but at lower level it's more pointless and boring than nurse to play against.
there's a reason there's certain streamers that go AFK until 1 gen is left with blight then get a 4k with just the extra vision perk and it's not 100% skill.
-"unless you're a hardcore SWF it's a complete waste of time when they use lethal pursuer BBQ etc"
I'm guessing that you are a mid tier survivor because you are saying this. You need to go out there and find someone who is "pretty good" who plays Blight. See what the weaknesses are - or better yet take up the mantle yourself.
@KayTwoAyy said:
This isn't as great as a video demonstrating the concepts, but hopefully some people can put this to practice and find success.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/UVC1SH5S03PF/image.png
If you don't run into a lot of hug tech Blights, and just struggle with how quickly he can run you down, my best advice is to constantly double back around thin obstacles. The wider the obstacle, the easier it will be for him to hit you as he flies around a corner.
This type of person rarely wants to learn how to get better. They want the devs to flip the "nerf" switch to make Blight worse.
I am hoping the OP actually reads what you wrote though- they stand to improve.
I will also point out that Truetalent recently has been playing as a survivor lately. I suggest you take a look at some of his survivor games recently against Blight. He shows how you can use his power against him.
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@dollidahlia said:
Change the win condition from kills to hooks.
this right here would discourage more killer players to camp and tunnel and instead spread out their hooks.
it’s a win-win for both sides.
survivors have a higher chance of escaping because everyone is being two hooked instead of tunneled out of the game.
and killers still get to rank up and pip because they met the condition of hooks. It would also feel more rewarding for the killer that they hooked everyone twice.
of course, there are gonna be some killers who still will tunnel and camp but this should minimize it
The problem is that you don't know DBD is like hockey and only goals/kills count.
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3390145#Comment_3390145
All games balance around top tier play. The fact is that it is unfair to people who have put in time to balance the game around people who don’t. Why play if my effort doesn’t matter?
DBD most definitely does not balance around top tier play. The problem with a game where you have super skilled people who are way better than everyone else is that it ruins the game.
You can't have the very best people able to loop a killer for 2 minutes and then the next category of player lasts 25-35 seconds between hits. DBD used to be that bad when we had ultra broken maps. The maps are overall somewhat better as they are *less abusive" but overall they still massively favor survivors.
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3390108#Comment_3390108
To better clarify.
I am not saying "there is nothing that can be done about camping and tunneling". I just personally believe that BHVR is going to nothing (or bare minimum) to actually handle it.
To me, personally, it feels like any suggestion I give just goes nowhere, and even with accessibility, I had to fight tooth and nail only to get bare minimum features that almost every other game has, and even then, I was not alone while doing it, it took me fueling an entire movement on DBD Forums and Twitter to get it actually going somewhere.
And my question is regarding how they make changes, if BHVR is so keen on using data, what would happen if we skewed the data?
Idk, I just do not have the same hope that I use to, DBD has taken what hope I had for the game improving and thrown it into a meat grinder.
-"I just personally believe that BHVR is going to nothing (or bare minimum) to actually handle it."
Then I would 100% agree with you. The devs rely on camping and tunneling to win. They do not play at a level where they have a good understanding of the game.
Furthermore they are highly reluctant to make changes to DBD where killer is better balanced by Survivor feels "bad" to play.
@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3390103#Comment_3390103
There are way, way, way less farming killers than suicides, so definitely not a close comparison at all. The suicides are a multiple times on a daily basis whereas I can’t even remember the last farm match I saw.
Also I completely disagree on balancing against casuals. There are some changes that are worse for casuals but the games casual player base is extremely catered to and balanced for to an extremely larger extent, like it’s not even close. Way too much for that matter. By and large the game is balanced around players with sub 100 hours.
-"Also I completely disagree on balancing against casuals. There are some changes that are worse for casuals but the games casual player base is extremely catered to and balanced for to an extremely larger extent, like it’s not even close."
Games that are actually balanced make the experience fun for low/medium/high skill play. They make it so that the highest skill players are limited and make sure the people with no skill are still having a decent experience.
DBD basically has no balancing at the upper end of the skill limit. This is a problem because it lets survivor walk all over every killer except Blight/Nurse.
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
I know a lot of people are going to see this and instantly think that this question is stupid. "The game's balance is the hands of BHVR, so it is their fault clearly," but I think this is an interesting question to approach.
DBD's balance is based on statistics, which a lot of people pointed out as flawed, which it is, but those statistics can be influenced by us, most notably, killrates.
Ive seen a LOT of people complain that Killer as a role is weaker compared to (SWF) Survivor, and the developers have tried their best to shift things around to benefit Killer, but I often wonder if the game would have gone a different direction if the players played different.
Camping and tunneling are tactics that Killers often employ to try and bring more pressure to the game, to have an easier time securing hooks and kills, and I feel like most people in the community have accepted that these tactics are not going anywhere anytime soon.
Part of me wonders, if Killers did not camp and tunnel, and the Killrates were lower a result, would Killers receive more significant buffs? Better yet, if people did not camp 3-gens for entire hours, would certain regression perks remained in a strong state without changes?
Are these unreasonable questions to ask? Maybe, since obviously not everyone would follow what everyone else does, but I think it is still an interesting question nonetheless.
-"Camping and tunneling are tactics that Killers often employ to try and bring more pressure to the game, to have an easier time securing hooks and kills, and I feel like most people in the community have accepted that these tactics are not going anywhere anytime soon."
This is the delusion of the unimaginative mind. We could very easy stop camping and tunneling. Let's imagine some base game kit changes:
- When the killer has exactly 1 player on the hook (and 4 players are alive) the generator with the most progress immediately becomes unable to be repaired and immediately begins regressing. The killer has 15 seconds to move 16m away from the hook or this effect ends. The survivors can end the effect if they unhook the hooked player. The 15 second timer is reset if the killer is in a chase around the hook.
- Whenever a killer hooks a survivor for the first time they debuff all survivor actions by 9% if no one has been killed yet. This debuff will remain until the trial ends. Where do we get the 9% number? If the debuff is 8% then it's just more efficient to tunnel the first player hooked out of the game.
- All maps will now be 9000m² or smaller. Until all maps are reworked to be that size killers without teleports or movement speed cannot play those maps unless the killer specifically uses a map offering. Survivors playing against a "no movement" killer using a map offering would have all maps with a surface area larger than 9000m² become invalid. In other words using a farm map offering would only be able to take Trapper to the abattoir map as all other maps in the tileset are too large. Blight and Nurse and any killer that can teleport or has a very fast movement power (Billy/Demo/ Freddy/Sadako/etc.) would be unaffected.
- No map will ever have more than 14 pallets. More pallets on every map will be "unsafe" meaning they have a long side and a short side so the killer can "mind game" the pallet. If the map includes a SWF then 2 pallets are removed from the map.
- DBD will rebalance all tiles to have less maximum linkage than is possible right now. Having lots of linked strong tiles allow players to loop those tiles without using resources.
-"Are these unreasonable questions to ask?"
No they are completely valid. Most of the balancing feedback comes from people who do not understand the game and "feel bad" when they lose a match without even knowing why they lost.
-"DBD's balance is based on statistics, which a lot of people pointed out as flawed,"
DBD looks at the end result without considering how we got there. This is problematic if you are familiar with rigged wins/losses in sumo wrestling. In short some Sumo matches are arranged losses so certain wrestlers preserve their rank. If you didn't know what was going on it might look genuine. But people have figured out that there is clearly cheating in sumo wrestling just to help other fellow wrestlers out.
How does that relate to DBD? If you don't measure a statistic then you can't measure how it influenced the match. If you just look at the outcome you will miss how everything came together for either a survivor to win a match or for the killer to lose.
DBD does not track when hook events happen vs when generators are completed. This is a big problem because if people mess up at the end the killer might get two kills that should have been easy escapes. Does anyone really think DBD is a fun/fair game if there is one to three hooks before the gates are powered? The DBD stats suggest that's not a problem.
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@TheArbiter said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3390072#Comment_3390072
I don't even think hexes were a problem, Totem spawns were. Hexes needed a 60 second entity blocker at the start of every match so that they didn't go in 20 seconds when they spawned next to a gen
What Hex perk is so worth the risk of using that it is meta? There isn't a single one.
You could make the argument that Demo can use DH because he has an addon that automatically reveals anyone getting within like 6m of the totem but that's incredibly niche.
The hex totem perks by design are weak.
- They are too easy to remove - in part because of communication and the fact that spawn locations can be morized (not to mention when they are literally in the open with zero cover).
- Generally speaking they are worse than most killer perks that can't be destroyed so why bother?
- The few perks that are good never last long enough to matter.
- Compare boons which can be re-ignited infinitely if the bones are not broken to hexes and you will see the problem. Killer's can't break bones but survivors can. Boons can't be removed unless all the bones are broken - wow what a shock that Boons have the potential to be better.
- Any time killers found a way to make totems strong resulted in an immediate nerf to the strength of hex totems. Anyone remember the Thrill of the hunt meta that actually allowed you to protect totems? They Nerfed it to oblivion. Anyone remember pre-nerf Undying that actually made hexes decent again? It was nerfed to oblivion.
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@TheArbiter said:
With the recent nerf to COH, this effectively makes every boon a waste of a perk slot. I'm assuming it's a failed concept at this point? Can't say I'm really complaining as it was dumb killers didn't have a basekit way of destroying them, but I am a bit disappointed with the concept being a failure.
Dont forget Hexes - they are the original problem child.
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@Snowflake_Syndrome said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3385153#Comment_3385153
It's so weird like I see some popular streamers play and as I watch I look at how baby like these survivor players are. Odd since these streamers are good Killers and have thousands of hours.
Yet I'm a regular joe and the survivors I who I play against are sweaty af swf's.
It's funny how that works isn't it?
The other side of the honesty issue is that we can't see if the system works. We have to trust that their system works exactly as advertised. In the history of this game there are a lot of things that do not work and have been fixed because players could see something was broken.
Overall MMR is a failed experiment that makes the game feel worse for the better players.
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@Seraphor said:
No map is perfectly balanced, and never will be.
All maps are viable for killer and survivor.
I really wish people would stop freaking out about maps such much. It leads to map homogenisation where every map is just an open field with a main building in the middle. Just like the latest Autohaven and Shelter Woods reworks.
We need more unique maps, and it doesn't matter is they're not perfectly balanced. Perfection is unattainable.
-"No map is perfectly balanced, and never will be."
Maps need to be in a place where survivors are picking maps not because they offer an escape advantage but because:
- They like the Nostalgia of that map from other games
- They like the graphics/sounds
- They have not played that map in a while.
Survivors usually pick maps that include : Ormond, Garden of Joy, Decimated Borgo, RPD as well as farm maps (which 4/5 favor survivors).
The Eyrie of crows was massively broken and the devs made it less unfair (still not exactly a fair map but it's better). Everyone knew it was survivor sided so survivors picked offerings to send them to that map for an easier chance to win.
-"All maps are viable for killer and survivor."
That might be true at low levels of play and mid levels of MMR but it is definitely not true when you consider efficient survivors. Most of the maps are so big that the killer will likely lose if their 3 gen setup is broken.
Wreckers Yard is a pretty fair map to killers. It has a small area, but has strong pallets. It can have a few linked tiles but nothing gets crazy like coal tower.
We can look at any map in the game and I'll tell you how to make it fair but keep it different. Let's consider Garden of Joy for example.
This map makes a "U" shape with the generators. It should probably then look more like this:
- Delete the entire back wall so that you can't go behind the house (removing one of the cheese windows completely. Change the shape of the upstairs drop to go to the east insead of dropping behind the house. Remove upstairs pathing on the east/west sides of the house except for the overlook over the top of the front porch.
- Make either the upstairs vault window open near the generator OR make the window downstairs next to the pallet open. Note: the front side of the house can have a vault but if it does then there is no pallet in the house.
- Delete the Jungle Gym near the Car park that leads to another jungle gym that leads to shack.
- Push most of the generators on the bottom of the map to be closer to the house.
- Remove generator spawns in the "NE" and "NW" corners. One generator will spawn in the green box area guaranteed.
This would be a pretty fair map as the two most abusive areas just got fixed. The house is no longer a near infinite loop. The deleted jungle gym prevents the ability to link approximately 7 tiles (several of which have pallets).
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@Skill_issue said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3389537#Comment_3389537
i agree on both counts...both of those maps need to be trimmed to smaller sizes
No map should be larger than 9000m². That's one of the core game issues when you have most of the killers lacking mobility. If the killer has no mobility then the survivors can just pre run and you have no ability to pressure. Likewise if the killer has no mobility then you can just shift+W to prolong chase. Larger maps make shifting more viable.
One of the key designs of the smaller older maps was that you chase someone and during that chase you come along someone working on a generator who is now also being pressured. Massive maps never have that happen so you are almost afk on your gen oblivious to far away chases.
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@Skill_issue said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3368378#Comment_3368378
the farm maps are the most unbalanced maps in the game...the way the rng tiles can chain (especially shack into jungle gym into cow tree) are disgusting
I would argue that there are more broken maps. Garden of Joy is almost impossible to win and there is no redeeming quality to it. Knight map has tons of pallets is big and has one viable 3 gen that always gets broken early.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3388744#Comment_3388744
Okay?
I wasn't arguing whether the perks were going to be effective. I was arguing about whether or not they'll still see use.
-"I wasn't arguing whether the perks were going to be effective"
I will accept your concession. My bad - I thought you were trying to tell me those perks were sill going to be viable. They are as dead as Disco (and even saying that is dead).
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3388484#Comment_3388484
PGTW, Overcharge, CoB and Eruption.
Overcharge and CoB are still fine when used together. They have excellent synergy. PGTW eliminates the big weakness, which is the lack of short-term chunk regression. Overcharge prevents gen tapping and helps after CoB runs out. Eruption then slaps another 10% regression whenever you get a down.
I guarantee you will see people running this as they attempt to cling to the old meta.
-"Overcharge and CoB are still fine when used together."
So you do realize that both perks together on the PTB do less than one does right now right? That's because it's a 70-75% nerf to effectiveness.
-"PGTW eliminates the big weakness, which is the lack of short-term chunk regression"
Kicing a generator takes 1.8 seconds and removes 2.5% progress which is 2.25 seconds (add this to all calculations).
Pop was dead last patch because it only affects "current progress." What do you get if a generator is on 20% progress? You get 20% of 90 seconds% which is : 3.6 seconds.
You're spending 1.8 seconds to remove 3.6 seconds of generator progress. During that 1.8 seconds you give 4 players 7.2 sconds to do whatever they want.
What happens if you kick a generator for 40% progress? You save 7 seconds. Oh man look at the savings!
This is a joke.
If you're running these perks and winning then other players likely could have won that game with no perks.
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@killeriseasy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3388095#Comment_3388095
I would be fine with that if it gives me a chance
What killer do you want to opt out against?
If you pick Blight then you would only get Nurses; if you pick Nurse then you would just have all Blight games.
There's a reason the best players are only playing against Nurse/Blight when you watch a video from Hens looking at a 200+ escape streak.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3386015#Comment_3386015
Doubt it.
It's going to go up as people look for new gen regression combo's.
Ah yes let's consider the combos.
- Pain Res works once per player instead of ~8-12 times per game. That's something like a 50% nerf ; it's mathematically more but realistically do you really need to keep using PR after 6 hooks and 2 people are dead?
- Overcharge and CoB are 70-75% nerfed. There is no combo on perks that lost 70-75% effectiveness. Would anyone use an exhaustion perk if they were only giving 25% of the distance you get now?
- What you have left are "nasty" combos like Jolt and Oppression. Jolt is great if you keep downing the same player over and over again in the same spot and does nothing when people Shift+W. Jolt works great when you can down them and take off 8% progress and hook them for another 15% progress removed. Jolt is not going to do anything on its own - it never did. Many of the perks that are left are things like Oppression that nobody used anyway because it had no synergy. If you could combine Pop+ Oppression every 80 seconds then maybe that would make the long cooldown of Oppression and the nerfed state of Pop make sense. But there is no combo so it doesn't make any sense to use. There is of course Eruption but that perk already got nerfed because it used to take about 25% off a generator (considering you can't touch it during the timer) and now it just does 10% which is not worth a perk slot.
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@Bartlaus said:
...and why are perks nerfed in such a way that nobody plays them anymore?
Scourge Hook: Pain Resonance
This perk has gradually found its way back into the meta. To address this, we have given Scourge Hook: Pain Resonance a slight rework.
That is why my questions came up. As an unbiased DBD main playing both sides, I have my concerns about the upcoming changes. Does it make sense to nerf perks just because they're popular?
If you nerf current perks to such an extent that nobody plays them anymore (e.g. DH, CoB, Overcharge, Scourge Hook PR, CoH etc.), then there will inevitably be a new meta. And this meta will make people complaining again. There will be more nerfs again. It is a doom-loop.
I appreciate the devs listening to feedback from their Fog Whisperers and complaints from their community and making changes based on that. But making changes that no one asks for (e.g. Billy´s engraving add ons) just because it's meta is wrong in my opinion. I agree with most of the changes in the patch, but I don't think it's a good idea to degrade perks to the point that nobody is guaranteed to use them anymore.
What do you think?
-"Does it make sense to nerf perks just because they're popular?"
It does but not for the reason you might think. We all know that the expectation that 4/5 players in every game but the truth is that the balance is nowhere near that. Right before the 6.1 patch people pinged the DBD servers and found regular instances of 45 killers in queue with 4500 survivors.
The marketing forumula for DBD has always been : keep the survivors happy and they will buy all the DLCs. In order to make killer competitive force them to buy the meta perks/killer platforms. Think for a moment if your friend wanted to play Blight and needed all the meta perks "today". How many DLC's would he need to buy? He would need at least 5 minimum just to make that one killer work. Pick a different killer and you need 5 other DLC's.
So from a "making money" standpoint it makes perfect sense. From a gameplay balance perspective it does not. Let's make a pretend example where as some kind of grand April's fool Joke 10 YT streamers got 1/3 of the survivors to unironically use Deja Vu every game. Sorry if you like that perk but it is not good because it gives you something that good players already know because of hours played/map knowledge.
Imagine two possible outcomes for the joke (experiment).
- Using DV did not lead the players to win more games
- Using DV caused those using it to win significantly more games.
If #2 is the answer then someone who is bad at statistics will cry "Eureka" and declare that DV helps players win more games. The problem with this experiment is that it doesn't tell you under what circumstances DV influenced the game. All it does is paint a possible correlation. In this case maybe the really good players were in on the joke and didn't use the perk or weren't even playing survivor during the experiment but were playing killer most of the time for that 100% experience bonus.
So then from a "money making" standpoint does it make sense to nerf anything the survivors don't like? Basically the answer is Yes. And that's the basis of something like 75% of the game decisions for DBD over the history of the last 6 years.
Now on the other hand let's consider Dead Hard and CoH. There is no doubt in my mind considering all the games from the 6.1 patch to now that those perks are broken. They get picked often because they do in fact help the best players using them to win more often. Note : CoH is easily used by "average" players but average players do not use DH well; only the best players can make good use of DH. We see the same parallel with the Nurse killer - only really good players can use her and everyone else "sucks" when they try.
When I lose a game I keep seeing the same patterns:
- I am playing against SWF teams
- At least two but usually three to four players use DH.
- There was at least one CoH boon
- The survivors had strong items
- The map was heavily weighted in favor of the survivors.
Let's look at each of these factors.
- SWF is better than not and that's a fact. We can discount this because we know how it influences games.
- What I see here is strong players using DH perform better than strong players not running DH. Let's ignore weak players using DH because you would catch them easily anyway because they are weak players.
- Boons make the game easier for survivors because they spend less time healing/looking for heals and they can shrug off the danger of being injured more easily (an infinite number of times in fact).
- We can ignore this issue because Strong items are better than weak items or no items.
- We know that sometimes the map is "rigged" against you. Conveniently like many streamers my game crashes when survivors try to take me to survivor sided maps so we can largely ignore this aspect as well but remember it is there as a contributing event that can occur.
With all that aside let's ask some questions:
A) Does it make sense to nerf DH if that perk is significantly making the game easier for the very best survivors?
B) Does it make sense to nerf Boons if that perk gives all players the ability to easily negate an injury from the killer?
In both cases the answer is yes when I look at my games and when I look at games of "professional" streamers when they struggle.
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@ThePolice said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3386883#Comment_3386883
Not really, it’s always a waste of time to heal vs legion, now it’s just MORE of a waste of time. Plague will always be stronger
-"Plague will always be stronger"
Play as Plague on The Game vs people who never drink until the end. You're a M1 killer with basically nothing. Play the same map as Legion with Iri button+ Julie's mixtape and you ignore the pallets. In fact people will likely stop using them.
@ironblade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3387796#Comment_3387796
Which gen regression perks?
Right now I am using Overcharge+ Scourge Hook Pain Res but you could use CoB+Overcharge also.
Just for fun I actually used : Bamboozle, Dying Light, Overcharge, Scourge Hook Pain Res. I would not suggest using Dying Light because it is a "win more" perk but in this case it can actually work with Legion.
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@killeriseasy said:
I wish there was a button I could press to not play against certain killers. I absolutely hate playing against certain ones.
You'll likely get your wish the moment killers can just "opt out" of playing against anyone in a SWF and only play against solo players.
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@Emoba said:
Balanced. Killer is perfectly fine the way it currently is.
Not really when you compare to a killer that works - like Blight who has pallet breaking in his kit.
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@ironblade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3387320#Comment_3387320
What perks do you use with those addons?
Well right now Bamboozle and then 2 gen regression perks. Can use sloppy or another slowdown perk for last slot.
Make the gens looooooooooooooooong.
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@ironblade said:
I have a hard time playing Legion in huge maps but in small maps, it's easier to use Legion's power. What's your take?
Legion is fine with :
If we are honest- this should be base kit. Imagine Blight not breaking pallets base kit!
Play this addon with it and most survivors have no idea what to do (even the good ones).
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@MeanieDeeny said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3386124#Comment_3386124
I gave Blight a try last night..whew...he's hard, but I can see how he would be powerful if you knew what you were doing.. I got 7 hooks in two games, so I don't haha...Nurse is pretty difficult, but I think i'm going to practice both on bots for awhile in my free time or when DBD has me stressed. Thanks for the tips and advice!
Blight is hard because you need to be running to where the survivor is going to be when they run the loop in an optimal fashion. The thing is - you don't know where that is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8u0jRxN2kQOverall I don't like SJ for personal reasons but he has a good guide on how to run killer tiles.
If you play Nemesis the bots are actually harder to whip than most people in open spaces. But if you mess around with Blight the Bots don't really run the loops well like players do.
Something to keep in mind : the devs are planning on removing Hug Tech. This is what makes Blight an "S" tier killer. People say: oh he's better with only bump logic. Well that's just not true. The very best blights would lose like half of their arsenal when hug tech and all associated tricks are removed. As a reminder - it is a factor of when will this happen not if as confirmed by one of the Mods.
It would be like if you go for the "option select" with huntress at a loop. If they vault you hatchet if not you cancel and M1. Well if the survivor knows you have no hatchets then you can't hatchet and they can vault freely. This type of counter play move will open up when hug tech gets removed.
If you absolutely must play other killers I would suggest using : Bamboozle. Why? You can turn off shack window on the first loop and if done correctly they either give you the pallet or take a hit. Bamboozle is essentially the killer version of "god pallets". You can to a very large degree turn off survivor skill options.
It also messes up survivor understanding of spaces at most loops.
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@Jacen_vG said:
I'll never understand how so many killers struggle with a half second endurance, especially when those running it move in predictable ways. They can't use it & vault or drop pallet simultaneously. All you have to do is not act like a dog slobbering over a treat. & I barely even use DH ever. 🤷♂️
I could do a copy pasta for Eruption pre nerf.
DH is the single most time wasting/saving perk in the survivor arsenal. Using it once can mean a chase that would last 20 seconds instead lasts 40-60 seconds. The problem is that an extra 40 seconds of chase = 120 seconds for the enemy team.
-"I barely even use DH ever"
That's cool but it's somewhere around a 90% pick rate in my games vs high tier survivors. Remember old PGTW? I used to get something like 6-9 kicks per game; that's 2-3 minutes of extra generator time for the survivors.
The "nerf' to DH made the perk stronger for the very best survivors and let them get +20 seconds minimum in chase for every chase. This is a problem because the killer objective is already longer than the survivor objective.
@Anti051 said:
Dead Hard is the only exhaustion perk that allows you to get outplayed at a tile, but undo it after the fact. Now people actually have to be good at judging distances and truly outplaying the killer to get to safety instead of just pressing one button on time near a pallet whenever they miscalculate.
It isn't something to lament that DbD is finally going to feel more like a game and less like a weird horror charade....Unless you were never really interested in having a fair game in the first place, which seems to be the case to a rather disturbing degree.
-"Dead Hard is the only exhaustion perk that allows you to get outplayed at a tile, but undo it after the fact."
Quoted for truth.
-"Unless you were never really interested in having a fair game in the first place, which seems to be the case to a rather disturbing degree."
The average comp. level DBD player is 17 so "fair play" isn't exactly top priority. They want to have fun at the other party's expense. This attitude will hopefully change by the time they reach 25 and their brain is "finished".
It takes a childlike mind to be able to enjoy a victory where the opponent never really had a fair chance to win.
@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/369195/dead-hard
Well, thanks. I even prepared a little edit just for the occasion:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRnWxX04ZVI
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3382279#Comment_3382279
This is why I've never hesitated to denounce Nurse and Blight. The two are just on a whole different level from the rest of the cast, they warp the whole game around them. No place on the map is safe from them, and the sheer speed with which they can end chases is incredibly obnoxious. So Survivors tend to feel like they need dumb bullcrap along the line of DH, Medkits and Circle of Healing just to keep up, and I can't exactly blame them.
But then I'm the one who has to deal with the fallout as a Killer that just plays the game normally.
I'm also not in favor of the healing nerfs. On paper, I can kinda get what they were going for, but in practice, the balancing around healing is very delicate. Besides, Medkits and CoH are what actually push healing over the edge.
-"This is why I've never hesitated to denounce Nurse and Blight. The two are just on a whole different level from the rest of the cast"
DBD basically needs to have a "SWF mode" where you play vs Nurse and Blight and solo queue where you play against the rest of the cast.
-"But then I'm the one who has to deal with the fallout as a Killer that just plays the game normally."
The reality is that DBD might be "fine" if Not Nurse/Blight killers had a different rule set. It could be any of the following (pick one)
- If not playing Nurse/Blight you get extra perks (note multiple and likely in the 2-4 range)
- If not playing Nurse/Blight you have a MMR limit (ie you can't go above say 1400 MMR for an "A" killer, 1200 for a "B" killer, etc.)
- If not playing Nurse/Blight you cannot play maps larger than 9000m² - because your movement sucks.
There needs to be no more than a 15% difference between the best killer in the game and the worst. Or the game needs to recognize that some killers are just "not as good" and treat them differently.
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@MeanieDeeny said:
I am seeking advice from experienced killers to indeed "git gud." Well, better.
I have under 4k kills and I've been playing killer maybe for 8 months or so. I truly don't know if this is good or average or low on the DBD scale..but the survs I face feel like very good, experienced (mostly) SWFs.
I was a Trapper main, but the teams started being too difficult with his current setup and so I switched to maining Plague months ago. She brings me more success, and I just love her.. but my teams are so good. It gets very stressful...
So I had a couple questions I hope maybe people can weigh in on...
-Is it pointless to use corrupt when using lethal?
I'm very sad to see scourge getting a change, as I typically run it w jolt...most good killers at this point, just say to tunnel..or camp...I don't like having to rely on this, I want to play...and have some kind of fun doing so...
I very much struggle at Ormond w Plague, for whatever reason, i've praticed on bots and for some reason in real matches, the entity brings me there almost every match (if survivors dont)..I have a hard time outplaying survivors there, because the map is just so big...any good tips for being able to have a successful Plague match there..without losing 3 gens during first chase? sigh it's very frustrating.
Thanks ahead of time for anyone who can provide positive tips or feedback!
"-Is it pointless to use corrupt when using lethal?"
These perks have some overlap in what they do. Generally speaking the survivors always start near the 3 corrupt generators unless you spawn in the middle of the map and the white gens are scattered around the map (As a side note when that happens your corrupt is generally wasted). Lethal makes sense if you also have BBQ but bear in mind that's half your build for info. If you can get some quick injuries Lethal+BBQ is better than corrupt.
Overall I stopped using corrupt post 6.1 except for trapper and MM as they absolutely need the time to build up.
- I am seeking advice from experienced killers to indeed "git gud."
Learn to play Blight and Nurse then. No I'm being serious. They are the only killers with a complete kit. Let's talk briefly about what that is.
- Movement powers are important. Since most maps are not a fair size (smaller than 9000m²) you don't want to play a killer without a movement power. No movement = defeated by Shift+W. It's really that simple. Also movement powers generally make map size not matter.
- Strong Anti loop makes a killer powerful. Nurse is strong because you can't loop her and you can't shift W. Nemesis is hard to loop but you can Shift+W against him. Don't bother learning to play any killer without strong anti loop.
- Chase Lethality makes survivors hate playing against that killer - you want this. Trapper sucks if you are trying to chase people where you have no armed traps. Nurse can obliterate a player on any loop and it's up to you to make the mistake to not get a hit instead of the other way around.
- Fewer than 5 killers have what is called: 4v1 potential. Nemesis and Pinhead are examples as you can potentially keep all the survivors busy while chasing one player. But Nurse and Blight also have 4v1 potential. How? They down players so fast that they can have hooked their first chase and start the second before "weak" killers can finish their first chase. Stop playing Weak killers - Unless DBD adds some kind of "protected MMR" mode.
- Detection is the last attribute and it's kinda pointless. As you get better at killer you have more game sense. You know where everyone is by what is going on around you. This gen went up 35% progress in the last chase so someone is here - scout around and find them. This is basically the point of Doctor's power and that's why he's a crap killer. You get something that good players already have- wow. One last note here : fast movement helps you detect people because you weren't close but now you are before they could blink.
The best killers have strong marks in categories 1-4 and have some ability for category 5 because they have strong movement. Think about the killers you play and you'll realize why they suck.
Plague sucks without her power - compared to Blight or Nurse. Good players prevent you from getting to use your power more than 2-3 times per game. Why bother with all that? Learn to play the killers that work well on every map and chase very easily.
The alternative is to pray that the devs "fix" the game for the other 29 killers. Good luck on that ever happening.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3385969#Comment_3385969
Okay?
Idc what it is now, it's about what it will be
Gen regression works in aggregate. CoB+ Overcharge obliterated gens if they were left for 30-40 seconds. Post patch they will do almost nothing so they won't get used.
Nobody is using Pop right now when there are other much better gen regression perks. In times past I averaged 6-9 Pops per game which means I would delay the survivor objective by 2-3 minutes. If I tried using it now I would probably save 20-30 seconds per game. Wow!
-"it's about what it will be"
Pop use will go down from what it is now because without multiple sources of regression you don't stop generator progress.
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Eruption was super powerful for killer and it was obliterated. People who wanted balance for the game said - ok fine nerf my eruption but please do the same for DH.
The PTB has changed DBD to a state where :
- Killers dont need gen regression - because none of it is viable.
- Survivors cant really heal effectively without items or very strong heal perks (we'll make it).
- Survivors can still bring gen rush perks and toolboxes
- Healing comes at the expense of "chase buids" and "repair builds"
- DH is not an incredibly overpowered perk that everyone uses. It might see two to three uses per game instead of 8-16.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3385942#Comment_3385942
yes, it will be gen slowdown lol.
Every Killer build post-patch:
PGTW, Sloppy, Deadlock and Corrupt.
It's still gonna be mostly gen perks lmao
Statistically Nobody is using Pop. It lost something like 75% of its usefulness on average. It went from something like 30% usage down to 0.3% usage.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384343#Comment_3384343
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384356#Comment_3384356
BHVR has to balance around all MMRs.
At lower to mid MMRs many killers don't have all the perks of the game unlocked and full gen rush slow down isn't a thing, the nerfs to their perks are not a huge deal.
Less experienced survivors over-commit to heals. That will probably still be true.
I agree with what Pulsar is saying - 8 seconds of extra healing is a massive nerf for those lower levels, even if higher levels just genrush more.
BHVR has to think about those, if kill rates increase they'll either have to walk back the healing or nerf killers across the board.
If you are a killer main, the thing you should be most worried about are game changes that make it easier for killers at low MMR without changing high MMR, because that's going to result in corrections that will hurt you to get the game back in line.
-"BHVR has to balance around all MMRs."
I've been saying that for years. But you have to remember what Mclean said about the Marth experiments : "we weren't trying to make a balanced game."
That tells you a lot but the reality is that they can't balance high tier play because they can neither play at that level nor really understand it.
@appleas said:
Nothing much will change for those who are experienced with survivor since Resilience + Adrenaline isn’t uncommon.
For the less experienced survivors, it will be an issue since they need the two health states to avoid going down early.
You're missing a huge piece of the puzzle here. Chases are "fine" when every member of your SWF has DH and it's active on game start if you get hurt. That goes away with the patch. Chases are going to be shorter and require pallet use much sooner. Even the good players aren't really thinking about how this will change the game.
You can take the most stalwart 10,000 hour player and they have limited options if they have no pallets to work with. Sometimes a 10,000 hour player makes something out of nothing. But your 3000 hour player or less is just "down."
@Skill_issue said:
the proposed healing changes doesn't affect your ability to genrush...heck even overzealous is getting a buff and you don't have to waste time healing...i guarantee your matches are going to be much shorter with the new changes and the nerfing of gen regression perks on the killer side. slap on a resilience/overzealous/stake out/fogwise with a good toolbox and you will still be able to listen to music and chill
the medkit and circle of healing changes are also needed...it was always ridiculous that survivors could heal mid chase (and very easy to do all you need is to predrop pallets and heal quickly)
as for killers you still are going to need more chase and aura reading perks than gen regression and try to get those downs as quickly as possible
your thoughts?
Gen regression is 100% dead. It only works in aggregate. CoB pre nerf only saved you 15 seconds if it was allowed to go for 60 seconds. It's going to save 4 seconds now. Nobody is going to say well this perk is fine with 11/15 seconds of its effect removed.
Overcharge is also 100% dead. Pain Res is likewise Dead. People are saying they will just use Jolt. Jolt was a great combo with multiple Pain Res hooks - that's not gonna happen and you will see that Jolt by itself does nothing.
If this patch happens DBD will become a game where : nobody heals and the generators always get powered. Tunneling remains high. Slugging goes up. Instead of the killers needing gen regression perks - survivors will need both healing perks AND generator rush perks AND exhaustion perks.
Killers will bring Sloppy Butcher - and then what? We know it won't be gen slowdown.
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@Skill_issue said:
be it mmr/unfair perks/game issues etc. what are your thoughts?
I feel it is important to retain those veteran players because with backfill lobbies/mmr those high end groups will be placed with mid mmr killers who are not going to be able to handle them. i also don't want default survivors learning how to throw pallets to be fed to a 4 slowdown nurse main.
DBD loses players because MMR exists.
MMR was added in September of 2021. DBD had 50k average players. MMR made 20k players leave. Solution : remove MMR and make it random again.
MMR "Weaponized" the game. You run faster and faster only to stay in exactly the same place. You get to a point where you can't play unless you bring "the best".
MMR has invisible break points that once you cross you can't go back. If you ever reach 1600 MMR with a killer then all your killers have a minimum of 1200 MMR. What if you buy Hag? That's right you won't get to play vs new players - you're stuck in the mid tier game where people already know how to counter your killer and you don't have a clue how to play Hag. It's a Genius system right? (please note the sarcasm).
Furthermore there are only 2 viable killers vs efficient players : Nurse/Blight. The rest of the cast should be locked in a lower MMR bracket (along with any players who are not yet good with Nurse/Blight).
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@DudelPuma said:
bhvr took the perfect perk (everyone sees where the boon is and can heal themselves up) for the solo q and made it a swf perk, my dear dbd community that's the definition of bhvr when they say "we want the gap reduce between solo q and swf" lies, lies and even more lies from bhvr I haven't seen more for years... they say something and do the complete opposite of it
if i'm wrong come back here to the forum and please enlighten me, so much was trimmed that you communication to heal up as best as possible, even healing was destroyed, which only helped the solo q people a lot and was essential, for swf it is a drop in the bucket... but i even hope that bhvr doesn't get scared and lowers the 24sec heal, please do it and see if dbd will be slowly dead or not and if it's in there as a test for 1 week, trust please do it bhvr! do what your mind said to you!
CoH is not the "perfect perk". It's on a power level beyond all hex totems.
- It provides infinite healing in a game where healing is supposed to be slow and infinite or limited but fast.
- It can't be removed unless you kill the player who placed it.
- Even the perk that is supposed to counter the perk doesn't even really do that - so nobody uses Shattered Hope.
- Imagine a world where you can only break hexes if you have a Boon; that's what it is like to go against CoH as a killer.
- CoH essentially adds a "stationary" 5th player to heal you or anyone standing in the blue light.
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@TheWheelOfCheese said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3385227#Comment_3385227
Why did we not have toolbox reform at the same time as medkit reform?
Why did the gen rush perks not get 70-75% nerfs?
Why are we allowing Hyperfocus to potentially finish a generator in 35-40 seconds? Should we add a killer perk that lets the killer remove two of your hook states in 30 seconds? Obviously neither of those things should be part of the game.
I think the thought process is that if survivors are kept busy healing for longer, the gens won't go as fast. This is true if the survivors actually heal. If they stack resilience, PT, hyperfocus, and toolboxes then the healing nerf doesn't really matter in terms of gen speed, though chases would be shorter as survivors spend more time injured.
We'll have to see how it all pans out on the PTB. Nerfing toolboxes / gen repair perks in addition might be a bit too much all at once.
Ideally I would have liked to see a slightly less severe healing nerf combined with a nerf to gen repair speed tools and perks.
The bottom line here is that there is no world in which is it ok for survivors to have a 35 second generator unless the killer can turn what would be normally 90 seconds on hook into 35 seconds. You have to say both are ok or neither is ok.
Can you imagine a killer perk that said : the first person hooked immediately goes to the second hook state? Lol. That is literally what Hyperfocus allows right now. Yea that's really fun to use as a survivor but it's not fun to play against as killer. That violates the rule of "fair play".
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3385217#Comment_3385217
I'm not in any way saying killers like Plague and Trickster are better than Nurse or Blight. Just saying other killers are viable too.
It's tough to pull off a no-cleanse against a good Plague. Always bring an extra fountain add-on and a chase perk or two. It only works if RNG completely screws you on fountains or you struggle to get M1 downs on a map like Cowshed or Borgo.
And yeah, Trickster has his limitations. Have to build around that. I prefer Coup De Grace on him. You can save stacks by using his knives to get downs. Then when you have a problematic tile with high walls, use the Coup De Grace stacks for hits. Perks like Awakened Awareness and Nowhere to Hide are also good because he's most lethal when someone is caught out of position. A huge mistake players make on Trickster is loading up on all the slowdown in the world and then they proceed to generate no pressure to capitalize on it.
-"I'm not in any way saying killers like Plague and Trickster are better than Nurse or Blight. Just saying other killers are viable too."
I agree with this statement until we include "efficient play" by very strong players in a SWF. And then it's Blight/Nurse or gtfo.
-"yeah, Trickster has his limitations."
But also has 4 knives into a melee attack = down. In so many ways Trickster is kinda like LF because his power in the open is like a chainsaw and he is one of the best campers.
@K_Nottie16 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/369626/mobility-wins-games
Agreed. It feels like theres almost no point to play as a killer that is slow paced.
That's why I said unironically that every killer with no movement power should be kicked up to 120% speed base kit. Yes that would "break" many of the safe loops in the game - that's the point.
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@HugTheHag said:
Make Bite the Bullet make you silent when you are being healed by someone else. That would be coherent and a nice little buff.
I think a lot of those perks on both sides are in a good place. They might not be overused but what they do, they do rather well.
For example, Lightborn doesn't need anything. It already counters blinds AND gives aura reading if you prevent a blind. That's about as much as it is supposed to do and it does it very well.
-"Make Bite the Bullet make you silent when you are being healed by someone else. That would be coherent and a nice little buff."
That's a very fair buff.
-"Lightborn doesn't need anything. It already counters blinds AND gives aura reading if you prevent a blind. That's about as much as it is supposed to do"
Have to disagree with you here for one reason : Nemesis. Change Lightborn to affect you and your minions. Remember how we made Wraith not get light blind? That's cool and all but they kinda forgot Nemesis. Nurse who is a stronger killer gets immunity to lights and Nemesis who is at least 2 letter tiers weaker doesn't get blind immunity for his Zombies? Excuse me?
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3385253#Comment_3385253
Regarding Exhaustion Perks:
I dont really mind them at all and I am fine with almost everyone running one (I dont run an Exhaustion-Perk myself). But I think if they want to nerf them, they should rather look at the Perks themselves (like they did with DH twice now and they did with Balanced Landing in the past) instead of adding a Perk which provides so much Aura Read.
Because even if the Survivor is not running any Exhaustion-Perk, an Exhaustion Add On would also probably mean that this Survivor is visible for the whole duration of the chase, since even 5 seconds of Exhaustion dont go down during a chase. Also Fearmonger would provide unlimited information which Gens are being worked on.
Regarding Shattered Hope - I still think it is not a good concept to become broken just for being unlucky. Rancor has the same problem (one Survivor at random will become the Obsession), but with Rancor you get a warning and a benefit and know that you have to hide in Endgame. And being broken is a huge Debuff - I mean, nobody uses No Mither despite the Perk having some pretty big positive sides (really good against tracking, unlimited pickup from the ground, increased Recovery). So being chosen at random to have that huge Debuff AND no benefit from it does not sound right.
Regarding Beast of Prey - I am really on the fence of removing the Red Stain by any means (except for Undetectable, since this is usually either capped or with quite some disadvantage). It is such a basic game mechanic and I think that chases can become really dull if many Killers would use this Perk.
-"I dont really mind [Exhaustion Perks] at all and I am fine with almost everyone running one"
It's fine if you are playing Nurse/Blight or maybe even Wesker. They go a long way toward making Pig, Trapper and Doctor nearly worthless considering all the other problems this game has.
-"Because even if the Survivor is not running any Exhaustion-Perk, an Exhaustion Add On would also probably mean that this Survivor is visible for the whole duration of the chase"
DBD is balanced around the idea that chases are ~20 seconds between hits. This happens in low and middle tier play but not high tier play. As a general idea if you want the game to not revolve around "I tunnel the first player hooked 3 times" then you need mechanics where people feel : I don't want to be chased.
What if for example we made the rule that exhaustion perks only did 33% of what they do now when not facing killers with mobility powers, one hit downs or range attacks (PH/ Trickster/Huntress but NOT Nemesis - since he needs 3 hits)? Would that be your preference?
Imagine for example a more organized team were running this game. You could very easily say : the most powerful 10 killers get no effect from Predator (Nurse, Blight, Wesker, Pyramid, Spirit, Huntress, etc.). Then again a more organized team would make the game so that the worst killer is only 15% worse than the best killer OR the bad killers have protected match making so they can't play against survivors who make their existence pointless.
-"I still think it is not a good concept to become broken just for being unlucky"
It wouldn't be "unlucky". The killer used 1/4 of his perks to make one player weaker. Survivors often pick perks without any care that it makes them more likely to be the obsession because there is no drawback. You could "counter pick" this by bringing no mither. Remember the A -B -C discussion?
I played against someone who unironically used No Mither last night. I listened to his stream while I played against him (because this makes killer feel less lonely). He was genuinely mad I tunneled him out because he was using Iron Will+ No Mither+Resilience + Brand new part. "You don't have the right to tunnel me - but I deserve to tunnel your gens with impunity." Those are not the words he used but that was obviously the idea running through his mind.
No Mither is really strong if used correctly. The problem was that I was playing a no Mobility killer vs a 3 man SWF all running the same character with DH. He chose to bring Iron Will so I knew he had no exhaustion - this made him the weak link so I removed him from the equation first.
Where am I going with this? What if Shattered Hope only worked if the game featured people in a SWF? As the killer you had to gamble that some people were playing together or it had a much lesser effect. SWF breaks this game and it will likely never get balanced because survivors would get mad (even though SWF ruins the game for killer unless you are Blight/Nurse).
-Btw for anyone curious I muted his stream when I hooked him the third time. After my game was done I got to watch this same player get tunneled in the next game. "He mad."
-"Regarding Beast of Prey - I am really on the fence of removing the Red Stain by any means. It is such a basic game mechanic and I think that chases can become really dull if many Killers would use this Perk."
Why would chases become dull? Explain it to me. You can see the red light therefore you always know where to go in a chase. Most tiles are designed so that if you know where to stand there is never a threat even when you can't see the red light (this is especially true if you are a good listener and know how close the killer is and listen to their footsteps/terror radius) .
Would DBD not be a far more actually frightening game if you didn't have a big red arrow to follow saying " I am going this way!"
I can't mention why I want this perk to work this way because it violates forum rules about : talking about exploits/cheating.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3385225#Comment_3385225
Most of your ideas are really bad and you did not put much thought into it.
Beast of Pray would just remove a core and fun part of the game. Sure, most Killers would probably not use it, but if someone is using it, it makes the game more boring for them (even tho it would be their choice) and the Survivor. Mindgames are just an important part which make chases more fun.
Shattered Hope is awful. Why should one Survivor start with a immense disadvantage, just because they got the 25% chance of being the Obsession? Let alone that it would be really busted on Oni and would remove quite a bunch of his counterplay (once he got his power once he basically has it nearly all the time, but the counterplay is to avoid the first hit).
Not sure about Brutal Strength or Hysteria, those might be fine, even tho I think Brutal Strength is already solid and it might be really annoying to be that one person who gets a Pallet deleted immediatly in chase, because the Perk is not on Cooldown.
Leverage would just make healing even more awful than it would be after the next Patch. Because on top of the Nerf to healing you would have to deal with so much Slowdown while healing... Sure, the non-tunneling incentive is nice, but it might take things too far with the already announced Healing-Nerf.
Predator is too much Aura-Read. I am always a big fan of Aura Read, but having it permanently when a Survivor is exhausted is just too much. Other Aura Reads which work in chase are quite short and have Cooldowns and this for a reason. A Survivor using a Perk like Lithe or Sprint Burst and being visible for at least 40 seconds afterwards would be too much.
-"A Survivor using a Perk like Lithe or Sprint Burst and being visible for at least 40 seconds afterwards would be too much."
Did you ever stop to think : maybe people are using too many exhaustion perks? Games are healthy when you have a mechanism where A is defeated by B which is defeated by C which is defeated by A.
DBD has been unhealthy for most of its life because certain things are clearly best at all times. Did you ever play when Spies from the Shadows was a top tier perk? That perk was the reason people picked calm spirit. Nobody bothers with either anymore because crows got a triple nerf (massive number/placement reduciton, they can be ducked past, and they have a 0-1m trigger instead of an 8m trigger).
Oni breaking Shattered Hope is a fair point. Do you think it would be problematic for any other killers? If not then just slap a restriction so that Oni Can't get blood from that person (so no Oni would use it).
-"Beast of Pray would just remove a core and fun part of the game"
I want to address this but I can't because it moves into an area of the game which is part of the exploits category.
A killer giving up one perk to remove the red light is pretty fair in my book.
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@MonsterDilf said:
Im right there with you.
The coming update is completely hot garbage. These decisions make no sense to the playerbase and the devs, as usual, refuse to take the L for when they make a bad decision.
Nerfing Billy - Who exactly asked for this? The Overheat mechanic is ludicrous and no one likes it. But you're going to nerf his add-ons, the VERY thing people use to have fun with him? Some milquetoast, khaki pants wearing pencil pusher who unironically enjoys NFTs probably read a spreadsheet and made this insipid decision.
Healing nerfs are only going to make SoloQ even harder for casual players: the Circle of Healing Nerf makes 0 sense in the end, but, please refer to the description above.
Scourge? Why even have it at this point?
Deadhard's nerf is AGAIN only going to encourage tunneling, the developers favorite strategy (that everyone basically hates or at best tolerates.)
Oni's add-ons, which no one uses, were touched. Why? Who asked? No one did.
Incentivized MORE camping/tunneling to the point it's just boring.
What's that? No new mechanics? No new THINGS to do? Sure sounds to me like they just desperately needed to punctuate the pipeline with a "look, we're doing stuff," update. Honestly, I'm beginning to really think it is just leadership in the team as to why things are going south so continuously. Where are the community manager's taking notes? Where are any of them?
Just hiding behind desks, not interacting with the community. What's the point of being a developer/manager if you don't do any of these things in a meaningful way?
Agree with every point you make.
@TheWheelOfCheese said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384284#Comment_3384284
If they revert all of the gen regression perk nerfs, I would be fine with this.
You can't give survivors faster gens without making them slower at something else, unless you just want to be able to gen rush and 4-out every match.
Why did we not have toolbox reform at the same time as medkit reform?
Why did the gen rush perks not get 70-75% nerfs?
Why are we allowing Hyperfocus to potentially finish a generator in 35-40 seconds? Should we add a killer perk that lets the killer remove two of your hook states in 30 seconds? Obviously neither of those things should be part of the game.
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@ironblade said:
Survivors
Most attention needed: Autodidact, Buckle Up, Calm Spirit, Corrective Action, Mettle of Man, Up the Ante & Technician.
- Ace in a Hole
- Autodidact
- Better than New
- Bite the Bullet
- Blast Mine
- Buckle Up
- Boon: Dark Theory
- Boon: Exponential
- Botany Knowledge
- Calm Spirit
- Corrective Action
- Counterforce
- Clairvoyance
- Dance With Me
- Dark Sense
- Decisive Strike
- Deja Vu
- Desperate Measures
- Diversion
- Empathic Connection
- Fast Track
- Friendly Competition
- Guardian
- Inner Focus
- Iron Will
- Kinship
- Lightweight
- Low Profile
- Mettle of Man
- No Mither
- No One Left Behind
- Object of Obsession
- Overcome
- Parental Guidance
- Pharmacy
- Poised
- Potential Energy
- Premonition
- Quick Gambit
- Reactive Healing
- Red Herring
- Repressed Alliance
- Residual Manifest
- Self-Aware
- Self-Care
- Self-Preservation
- Situational Awareness
- Small Game
- Smash Hit
- Sole Survivor
- Solidarity
- Spine Chill
- Teamwork: Collective Stealth
- Teamwork: Power of Two
- Technician
- Tenacity
- This Is Not Happening
- Up the Ante
- Urban Evasion
- Visionary
- Wiretap
Killers
Most attention needed: Beast of Prey, Bloodhound, Claustrophobia, Deathbound, Distressing, Dying Light, Fire Up, Insidious, Overwhelming Presence, Territorial Imperative, Unnerving Presence & Unrelenting.
- Awakened Awareness
- Barbecue & Chilli
- Beast of Prey
- Bitter Murmur
- Blood Echo
- Bloodhound
- Claustrophobia
- Dark Devotion
- Deathbound
- Deerstalker
- Dissolution
- Distressing
- Dragon's Grip
- Dying Light
- Fire Up
- Forced Penance
- Furtive Chase
- Game Afoot
- Gearhead
- Grim Embrace
- Hex: Crowd Control
- Hex: Face the Darkness
- Hex: Huntress Lullaby
- Hex: Ruin
- Hex: Undying
- Hubris
- Hysteria
- Insidious
- Leverage
- Lightborn
- Oppression
- Overwhelming Presence
- Pop Goes the Weasel
- Predator
- Scourge Hook: Monstrous Shrine
- Septic Touch
- Shadowborn
- Shattered Hope
- Stridor
- Surveillance
- Terminus
- Territorial Imperative
- Thanatophobia
- Trail of Torment
- Unnerving Presence
- Unrelenting
- Whispers
If you deleted every perk on your killer list except BBQ , BM and Terminus it might take survivors a month or longer before they noticed.
If you want to seriously make hexes viable then allow them to be rekindled at any unbroken totem. The only problem then becomes Devour Hope which if you ask me should be reworked completely.
Change BoP to turn off your red light (at all times) and give you undetectable when within 16m of a generator.
Change Shattered Hope to force the survivor that starts as the obsession to play the trial broken (with no other effect).
Change Brutal strength to allow you to break 1 pallet with a lunge attack every 60 seconds.
Change Hysteria to have no time limit; if you are hurt then you are oblivious.
Change Leverage to make the tokens permanent if the person you just hooked was not the same as the last person you hooked.
Change Predator so that you see survivor auras when they are exhausted.
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@[Deleted User] said:
It's not a deal breaker for a killer to lack mobility. Plague is one of the best designed killers in the game to me. She's not mobile, but she's insanely lethal if you're good at her. You can destroy a team with two Corrupt pools unless RNG completely screws you. She has a power spike that changes games. Trickster is another good example. I snowball games with Main Event a lot. He has laughably bad mobility, but he has a clear power spike.
Contrast that with Trapper or Pig where the power spike is completely dependent on mistakes or RNG. Or Doctor where there's no power spike whatsoever, just a bad killer. And Clown, I mean...he's good at tunneling I guess? Most of the issues with the less mobile killers don't boil down to a lack of mobility in and of itself. It's their lack of a reliable power spike to make up for the lack of mobility.
"It's not a deal breaker for a killer to lack mobility. Plague is one of the best designed killers in the game to me."
Plague is getting nerfed by proxy with healing being gutted. Also one of the best survivor tricks in the game is shift+w. Nurse, Blight, and Wesker are some of the best "chasers" because you can't shift+W against them (not to mention that they all have good to amazing anti loop).
Most survivors dont cleanse vs Plague so if you are bringing an apple every game then that severely limits your addon choices. It's "super fun" to get your power once per game - yay (please note the sarcasm).
"Trickster is another good example. He has laughably bad mobility, but he has a clear power spike."
Trickster is super dependent on map design. He sucks on high wall maps.
Also just to be clear - are you saying you think you could do better with Plague/Trickster than a really good Blight or Nurse? No one is going to believe you if you say you could because Nurse/Blight are the best killers in the game as a result of their mobility.
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@Rovend said:
The main strength of DH was its versatility, adding a Deliverance's requirement will definitely hurt it a lot.
It is not like you will never get any value out of it but for me it will be relegated to pure unhook builds.
Personally, i would like for the devs to at least give it the 1sec window to use it it had before since you are already paying a cost (safe unhook) for trying to use it alongside the exhaution and deep woumd
-"The main strength of DH was its versatility, adding a Deliverance's requirement will definitely hurt it a lot."
That's entirely the point in how they are nerfing it. The devs basically had a choice and could have said - ok DH is once per game. That was too much apparently so they made it have the deliverance requirement.
What is this going to do to the perk? It means if you want to use DH you have no exhaustion in the first chase which will make you massively weaker. It means you might never get a chance to be the unhooker so you never get to "earn" your DH. If you are the first one hooked and you get tunneled then you will never get your DH.
How will this affect the game? No more will killers hesitate to swing. It means no more long chases for the first chase. It means a lot less wasted time in chase overall. It means more pallets used sooner - making everyone slightly weaker at looping.
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@Hensen2100 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384263#Comment_3384263
Kinda wild. Taking some power off gen kicks but then adding in entire gens worth of extra healing into the match and people say it won't be impactful.
CoH gone, crutch hard gone, medkits nerfed into the floor, healing time increased dramatically. And then someone is complaining because call of brine won't delete gens passively anymore? It's such a net win for killers, at least any killer that wasn't relying on call of brine.
If they don't heal then they get 1 shot by wraiths, dredge spends all game in nightfall, oni spends the entire game in his power etc etc. Use common sense here. If the survivors can easily get away with never healing all game then you are not playing well as killer
-"CoH gone, crutch hard gone, medkits nerfed into the floor, healing time increased dramatically. And then someone is complaining because call of brine won't delete gens passively anymore? It's such a net win for killers, at least any killer that wasn't relying on call of brine."
Killers aren't going to kick gens anymore. It has never been worth it without kick perks. So that makes blastimine absolute garbage and buffs the hell out of wiretap.
This is not a net win for killers because there is literally no way to protect the generators. A lot of people don't seem to realize that if the gens do not get completed then you have won the game. What this meta shift will do is make sure that the gens get finished most of the time.
All the healing survivors have been enjoying has been at the expense of the killer's fun. If the game is actually going to get balanced then we will need to see all the gen rush perks get the treatment that gen defense perks are getting right now. Nobody is going to use gen defense perks with 70-75% nerfs. Nobody would use a gen "rush" perk that had been given the same treatment.
Toolboxes need to get changed next. They should probably just become "sabotage only" and have the BNP retired.
@Hensen2100 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384256#Comment_3384256
That's a hot take when with sloppy you are now looking at ~30 second heal times. And crutch hard being gutted?
This patch is a massive buff overall for killer, I would be surprised if it even goes through in it's current form. Some killers like Dredge, Hag, Wraith, etc etc are getting the biggest buffs they have ever gotten all at once.
-"Some killers like Dredge, Hag, Wraith, etc etc are getting the biggest buffs they have ever gotten all at once."
Dredge will have his power more often so that will be a plus for a very "meh" killer; likewise wraith wont be ruined because people brought an item. Hag on the other hand is getting nerfed because you wont need an item to counter her traps. This was a needed change to prevent the "catch 22" scenario where she has franklins to deny your ability to counter her traps.
@Hensen2100 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384274#Comment_3384274
I don't know what killers you are playing, but most killers these days can almost brute force every safe loop in the game. You are talking like everyone is playing Wraith in the days of killers like Blight, Pyramidhead, Mastermind, Knight, and all the other killers who can basically negate looping. Not to mention some incredibly strong anti-loop perks like dissolution now exist
I will take my massive killer buffs, CoB for DH is a trade I would have made even without healing getting increased to ludicrous levels
3~ sloppy hits is now an entire generator worth of healing and "gens will go too fast" he says
"I don't know what killers you are playing, but most killers these days can almost brute force every safe loop in the game. You are talking like everyone is playing Wraith in the days of killers like Blight, Pyramidhead, Mastermind, Knight, and all the other killers who can basically negate looping. Not to mention some incredibly strong anti-loop perks like dissolution now exist."
Due to forum rules I'm not allowed to discuss why you are wrong. In short very good players know how to circumvent mechanics like "window blocking. You can however find a certain video by the streamer Hens mentioning that such techniques exist.
I will remind you that Trappers find themselves facing the same difficult opponents that Pyramid heads do. The MMR system doesn't keep them separate even though everyone knows Trapper is inadequate against good players.
@Marik1987 said:
Of course Tunneling will rise even more.
There is 0 reason to not tunnel. Its Gen-Tunneling vs. Kill-Tunneling.
So brave and yet so true. Most people believe that survivors cannot tunnel. It is their divine right to finish the generators and the killer isn't allowed to tunnel them in response to their tunneling.
@feffrey said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3385148#Comment_3385148
Killers have been consistently handfed for 6 years of this game and still currently begging for more. Like someone mentioned above killers are in a spot where they can deny loops and even make up the lost distance in chase at loops
While survivors are consistently kicked down and gutted to where they've to hold hands with each other to play
You shouldn't be able to pick up killer and instantly master it get 4k every match
In what upside down dystopia do you live in? For six years DBD has been a survivor playground almost without exception. If you are a new player that doesnt know how to loop then maybe I could understand your point of view.