DBDVulture
DBDVulture
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@tyantlmumagjiaonuha said:
New Red Forest is Nightmare. Connect strong pallet and window.
It's probably far worse than you think. Did you know there is a way to fall and skip the recovery animation into a fast vault if a certain window is open? Needless to say it makes the main building an actual infinite if you know how to "shift tech".
@Seraphor said:
Holy hyperbole batman.
ALL killers are perfectly viable, I still win and lose with most of the killers I play, and that includes the likes of Ghostface and Pig.
Just because you don't win every game doesn't mean a killer is not viable.
-"ALL killers are perfectly viable"
Are you trying to say : All killers are perfectly viable at every possible level of play? That is clearly false. And the proof is that nobody has ever played Doctor in a tournament where they had unlimited access to Nurse/Spirit/Blight.
-"Just because you don't win every game doesn't mean a killer is not viable."
This is an empty statement with almost no value. The truth of this statement is : if you lose a game as killer then that does not mean the killer is bad/has no redeeming value. But the reverse is also true - Just because you beat up on some noobs using Doctor does not mean that killer chassis is viable at top levels of play.
I will remind you about a paraphrased quote from the Developer Dave : "DBD DLC killers are pay to lose".
Yes by the way he actually said something equivalent to those words (somewhere between 2016-2018 if I remember correctly).
@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3377525#Comment_3377525
IIRC, time before last when stats were released, Doctor was top performing killer at all ranks.
-"Doctor was top performing killer at all ranks."
What are you trying to say with this statement? Please tell me if you believe any of the following are true
- Doctor is the best killer in the game
- Doctor has better movement/map pressure/quick chases/anti loop compared to Nurse/Blight
- Doctor has "amazing" addons compared to Nurse/Blight Best in slot options.
- Doctor can be played in a very strong way with no addons vs survivors with best in slot items.
- Doctor has an easy time playing against Comp level survivors vs SWFs on all maps.
Most people would say that all of these sentences are false (not only that but for Good Nurse/Blight players you could make the checklist with their name and everything is very possibly true) . If you agree that the majority of these statements are true (signaling that Doctor is in fact amazing) then that gives us the conclusion :"how many kills a killer gets is a poor reflection of the health of that killer".
This raises the question how could that be possible?
- Kills are a poor metric of killer performance. A better metric would look at how often the killer gets meaningful hits that lead to a down. A better metric would look at how quickly relative to generator speeds the killer downs survivors; a killer that trades 1.5 downs/hooks for 1 generator would be better than a killer that trades 1 hook for 1 generator. Another good metric to look at is how often does a strong killer interrupt heals, saves and generators vs good players?
- The doctor stats are possibly skewed in some way. How could that be possible? Recently I made the argument: why pick "fist" as a weapon when guns were an option. Some people play doctor because they like doctor and are good at doctor. Some people play doctor for the daily but are in a MMR pool where you can literally win with anything and have fun with meme builds. Some people never touch doctor because they realize Doctor is a "fist" and other killers are "guns". Therefore I present the question: Is it possible that the people who are playing Doctor regularly are some of the very best Doctors? Maybe for example almost nobody in a difficult MMR bracket plays Doctor except for the people who are really good. Furthermore what happens when we get the top 3 doctors in the world and have them play the best 3 survivor teams in the world. How do those doctor players compare to the best 3 Nurse/Blight Players in the world? The answer is : the Doctors get made to look foolish because Doctor is an inferior platform.
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-"When both sides bring meta, the game is pretty balanced."
Meta for killer means nurse/blight for most people. Sure if you are CoconutRTS you can bring Huntress but most people just are not on that level.
Nowhere in that tournament (if it is the one I am thinking ) does anyone pick Doctor - and that's exactly my point.
@Mr_K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3377444#Comment_3377444
Basically what Depip did, but during that time we didn't have SBMM so many Twitchy/YT dismissed it.
I did find it ironic that after the first iteration of SBMM those same people started to complain about sweaty matches every game.
Anyone who thinks this game is fair need only look at the Marth experiments - thank you for reminding me. I will say overall killer was better during that time than it is now with a few exceptions. What did a DBD dev from the time say regarding those experiments? "We weren't trying to make a fair game."
That raises the question why not. We can only assume the answer :
- To make more money by placating the survivors.
@Tostapane said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3377501#Comment_3377501
There's a reason if certain perks/items/addons/maps are forbidden in those "tournaments"... The game isn't balanced around that level of bs... Which brings us the hilarious fact that "comp" dbd is more balanced (and probably even funnier) than pub matches for that reason alone...
I have one friend who is better at survivor than me. He plays with people who are all better at survivor than me. He told me they like to stack things like deliverance, boons, unbreakable, etc with only the best items. I momentarily humbled him when I asked him if they really needed all that to win. I asked if his squad would be interested in a "comp rules" style match with one yellow one brown addon (yellow items) with no perks/items/characters repeated.
He said : we've never played like that.
And this is the point I was making earlier to someone else : Pub matches played by very good players are far more punishing than comp play.
Imagine for a moment if we had the "open handed "rule. It would go something like this: if all 4 survivors bring no items then the killer cant bring any addons; if the killer brings no addons then the survivors cant use their items. If either team triggers the open handed rule then the opposing side's items/addons would be returned to their inventory.
Survivors would absolutely hate this because many of the killers play massively better than survivors with no items. I would play every game as Nemesis with no addons (because his addons are nearly useless) and I would never play against survivors with items. This would completely invalidate most survivor builds - hows that hyperfocus w/o a toolbox?. How's that DH build with no way to medkit?
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@BenOfMilam said:
Title.
I find it genuinely astounding that the playerbase at large fails to understand that camping is generally a very bad strategy. It relies entirely on survivors not doing gens, and instead clustering around the hook and committing mass suicide via killer. I only camp when I recognize that the survivors I am playing against are simply so terrible that camping is a guaranteed victory, or when it's endgame and I got trounced.
A killer that stands in front of the hook is completely and 100% predictable. They are not going to leave, and they're going to sit there and stare at the hook. You can do gens or gates and take a free three man out, or you can feed the killer a 4k for no good reason. If you really want the unhook, one guy gets the killer's attention and another sneaks in and gets the unhook. It's really not that difficult.
Oh, and don't come at me with "muh solo queue", because I play a lot of solo, and I unhook a lot against camping killers AND I make sure my teammate makes it out of there alive. Camping has been a thing for years and it's only become a worse and worse strategy over time. Git gud or die.
I realize you're probably one of those people that think a player that face camps is bad at the game. Well sometimes facecamping a player to stage II means you already have won.
Let's take a look at how that happens. Say I chase someone and down them in the middle of the strongest 3 gen on the map. And I put them in basement. Ok I just walk 5-6 steps in any direction and prevent you from making an unhook without trading.
Let's also imagine that one of the generators is sitting on 80% completion and I have kick perks. So I stand closer to that gen so it keeps going back to 0% progress.
If I get your friend to stage II then I will tunnel them off the hook. And then I will do this all over again with only 3 people alive. If you could not save them with 3 people how are you going to do it with 2 people?
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3377500#Comment_3377500
So, if there was a tournament with no restrictions, what would you expect to happen?
I expect that a majority of the killer cast would be completely unplayable. Let's say someone picked Doctor for example; people are likely to laugh because you even tried to bring doctor. And then when you get utterly stomped that game will serve as a reminder forever as to why nobody has ever brought doctor to an "everything goes" arena.
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@Omans said:
About your last point regarding the streamers you watch always having only potatoes in their games: the survivors they are going against are made to look like potatoes by the streamer himself/herself.
No doubt when you watch the streamer who is considered really good at killer you think "hey this looks really easy, I can do that."
It looks easy because of their experience and skill. They make it look easy. So, even when they are facing the exact same skill level of opponents that you are (which is absolutely true - they are, if you are as good as you think), it looks like most of their opponents just aren't very good.
I say this as a player with thousands and thousands of hours in the game. You are very, very wrong with this entire post. If you aren't having fun with the game, that's fine. Take a break. No big deal. But the killer role is in such a great spot right now.
I win the majority of my games while never camping or tunneling and only going for 12 hooks. If I included camping/tunneling at optimal times in my gameplay, "losing" would be a rarity. This is the reality for really good killer players in the game right now.
"About your last point regarding the streamers you watch always having only potatoes in their games"
Check carefully what I said again - you're mixing my sentences/thoughts together.
-"But the killer role is in such a great spot right now."
Why would you say this? You think it's good gameplay that most of the killers are forced to play a tunnel/3 gen strategy or gtfo on every map? Most survivors hate playing against it. Most people playing killer don't want to have to tunnel to have a chance to win against gen tunneling.
-"I win the majority of my games while never camping or tunneling and only going for 12 hooks."
Why don't you show me some riveting games where you outplayed some top notch survivors while using a killer at least on the "B list" with weak addons (doctor, Pig, Legion, etc). I can log onto my brother's account and win every game with no perks/addons on Trapper because every round would be against complete noobs. It's not a big deal if you win unless you consider who you are winning against and what it required for you to win. People often miss this point when they say : well I played nurse with best everything and won 10/10 games tonight.
With that though in mind - one of the games I played today was against a 3 man SWF and a random. I used brown+yellow offerings and a map cancel offering as Nemesis (because it was 100% a 3 man swf if not a "sneaky" 4 man with one player on console). One player was just shy of 9000 hours, another was private and the third was about 3000 hours.
Their perks and items were much stronger than mine because I was playing a "fun" round. They were good loopers but I play Nemesis often and I hard countered what they wanted to do. Almost all of my whip attacks connected and when I did miss it was because T1 is incredibly easy to dodge if you're not a potato.
Somehow the SWF claimed victory in the end game chat because 1 played escaped through the door. I feel like you're the type to say : well you won so killer must be fine.
What I'm getting around to is that the best Nemesis or Doctor in the world is just going to look pathetic next to an "average" blight. That is foolish from a development standpoint. There should be no more than a 15% difference in power between the best killer and the worst killer. It's almost as if you are going into a fight and your options are : fist, rock, spear, flintlock pistol, glock 9mm, Uzi and Spectre Gunship. Why would you ever pick fist when Spectre Gunship exists? The sensible answer would be because fist can only play the fair killer maps and can't play against SWF.
-"I say this as a player with thousands and thousands of hours in the game."
And the way you talk about game balance makes it sound like you only have hundreds of hours in killer. I have been playing since 2016 so my hour count is pretty high as well. I have spent time equal to my hours played watching streamers to be on top of my game. When I watch Otz or truetalent play Nemesis I hear them say : "why didn't that hit," and I know the answer. I see them go for whips that are ambitious to say the least.
You can be sure they have better mindgame mouseroll moves but I can mechanically play Nemesis better than either of them; to be fair they can probably play the other 30 killers better than I do.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3377438#Comment_3377438
DBD-Tournaments have nothing to do with Public Games. Bringing them up is not really an argument.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3377441#Comment_3377441
First of all, high MMR is a Joke. We already know what range you get when you are at "high MMR", it is pretty much random to ensure that queue times dont go overboard.
Second, no, I am saying that he is probably not good because he is losing a lot. But since MMR (and because it is hidden) people really try to think that they are on some giga-MMR where they only get the best Survivors and THIS is the reason why they lose. But it really isnt.
The worst part of this community is that people really almost never have the thought that they might not have played that well during that game. No, it is always something the other side did.
-"DBD-Tournaments have nothing to do with Public Games. Bringing them up is not really an argument."
When you look at high level play there are 2 viable killers across all maps that can handle SWF. That's relevant for public matches because unlike a tournament you can play multiple copies of perks/items/perks.
In other words : SWF might be fair if you were not allowed to repeat perks/charactes/items/offerings.
SWF breaks the game because overall the number of pallets/size of maps/strength of loops only works when you are bad at survivor. If you play meta Nurse/Blight you can overcome most teams/obstacles.
Another way to say this would be : if not playing Blight/Nurse then you should have the option to only play against solo players. Alternatively they could make the game fair for all killers.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3377467#Comment_3377467
No that’s wrong. Your numbers for SWF are off. The stats BHVR released last year had like 60% of survivors as solo and of the remaining 40% over 50% of that was duo, then around 20-30% were 3-man, with less than 15% were full 4-man SWF. 4-man were the rarest SWF and duos were most common, but at the end of the day the stats showed that most survivors were solo queue.
Nope. When you look at the combined aggregate of 2 man swf, 3 man swf and 4 man swf it was more than 50% of the player base.
The way they presented the data was misleading. This is no surprise because their data collection/analysis has always been "Sus".
This is not my post but this is straight off their numbers.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3376702#Comment_3376702
GoJ is small - that's something. Badham has big open parts (aka deadzones) - that's at least something. Borgo is very open favoring some killers (and being really bad against standard M1's) that's also something. It's not much, but it's still something.
Midwitch had bad hook placement. The map does not have even that now.
-"GoJ is small - that's something. "
One of the requirements for a fair map is small size. Any map larger than 9000m² is not small. GoJ also has almost no chance to 3 gen due to the way the gens are positioned. No 3 gen = only viable or 2 killers. That would be fine if only Nurse/Blight could play that map.
-"Badham has big open parts (aka deadzones) - that's at least something. "
The buildings on this map are all way too safe. Once again the map is too big.
-"Borgo is very open favoring some killers (and being really bad against standard M1's) that's also something. "
Map is too big and has too many pallets that are too close together. This is the "coal tower" syndrome where you have too many linked tiles. Except in this case you usually have way too many linked pallets. This map should have about 9-10 pallets and should be no larger than 9000m².
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@bunnyfengenthusiast said:
Everyone in post-chat likes to complain if/when they get tunneled, and treat you like the worst human being on earth. Here's a question that should hopefully challenge your conceptions about the game: why is it wrong to tunnel?
Tunneling is objectively the most optimal way to play the game, because the pressure is split amongst 3 people instead of 4, and it makes a 1 or 2 gen remaining scenario mathematically winnable. One downside of tunneling (if you wanna call it that) is that one survivor in particular isn't having fun being targeted.
Now, here's the thing, and this comes down to the anecdotal. Every time I'm playing a killer below B-tier, and I decide to play "fair" and not tunnel, I'll typically get 2-3 outed, maybe even a 4 out with bodyblocks, and I will get mass teabags at the exit gate. This is a massive slap in the face; the survivors are openly being toxic against a killer who didn't use the tactic that most consider the holy grail of toxicity. This provides me (as well as other people) with an added incentive to tunnel - if a higher chance to to win wasn't already enough.
It can be argued that playing optimally (or being "sweaty") when the people on the other side aren't doing so is toxic. However, how do you establish how a group of survivors intends to play? If you figure out too late that they're not messing around, the game may already be lost, with the last 3 gens being on opposite corners and the survivors being on first hooks. Even thus, it can also be argued that most survivors nowadays are learning to play the game in a very optimal way by default.
So again, in the current state of DBD, why is it so wrong to tunnel? Survivors certainly aren't shy about splitting up on gens across the map, doing 4 different ones on 4 different corners of the map, as well as bringing loads of second chance perks, and stacked medkits, and BNP toolboxes, and taking hits. If it's okay for survivors to play as optimally as possible, why is it looked down upon for the killer to do so?
Survivors tunnel generators and this conditions the killer to tunnel them out of the game. Survivors laugh when you call them out for "tunneling" generators but it is just efficient to finish discreet objectives.
There should be some base mechanic that when a generator is kicked you can't touch it until ~20 seconds have passed. Also there has to be some base kit debuff for killer for not tunneling. Otherwise I'm just going to tunnel b/c that is more efficient.
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@AGM said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3377438#Comment_3377438
Because every game of DBD is a SWF comp squad vs. a newborn baby playing perkless add-onless Wraith?
Comp DBD may as well be a separate game mode for all intents and purposes. The vast majority of survivors are solo. There is great disparity in the skill levels of players. If someone is losing all their games, that's their problem, and will eventually be moved to their appropriate MMR. If they still can't win any games after that, then it's literally a skill issue.
At whatever MMR I'm at, I've gotten 4Ks with Freddy, I've gotten 1Ks with Blight, and vice versa. People need to stop crying that they lost because of the maps every time they lose, because it really makes it harder for the devs to get good feedback on what to change about the actually problematic maps, like Cowshed having a ton of ridiculously strong pallets or Mother's Dwelling being the size of a galaxy.
Sometimes you just lose because you're not as good as your opponents, and that's okay. Just move on to the next game, or take a break from DBD if you're burnt out to the point that you're ranting about Nurse and Blight being the only viable killers in a regular casual game of DBD.
-"The vast majority of survivors are solo."
The devs gave us stats saying that is not true. More than 50% of all games are played in a swf of some kind. And that was before tunneling/camping/slugging got real bad; most of my friends only play in a SWF.
-"Sometimes you just lose because you're not as good as your opponents, and that's okay"
DBD has god pallets that turn the killer's skill off. Can you imagine if killer had the same thing? Imagine for example if killers stopped having a terror radius for anyone in a SWF.
DBD has maps that are massively survivor sided; where is the 76% kill rate map? That was something we had in 2016 and now Shelter woods is massively survivor sided. Look at all the most recent maps : Shelter woods rework, Red Forest Rework, Knight map, Garden of Joy - all of those maps are so broken.
There's about 1 fair map for killer : Wreckers yard.
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@Tostapane said:
... We reached the point where only 2 killers are BARELY viable (nurse and blight, but i've still some doubts on the 2nd one in certain maps) due to EXTREMELY bad map design (easily linked strong loops paired with BS hitboxes), broken stuff (instaheals, styptic agents, anti hemorrage syringe, bnp, etc etc)h, better coordination due to the new survivor's hud, generators that are too fast and easy to do (at high mmr it's normal seeing 3 gens pop after a SINGLE chase) and perks that are too much strong, especially if stacked together (dead hard above all). Honestly i'm tired of all that bs that survivors have at their disposal and being PUNISHED for every action that i can do (want to do mixed hooks and injuring everyone? medkits, CoH and dead hard will deny this gameplay. wanna defend generators? Good luck with all the best perks that killer have nerfed into the ground and the new one that aren't strong enough for that matter. Wanna dispose of a survivor ASAP in order to get an easier late gane? No chance with the huge amount of chances that survivors have between bodyblocking, instaheals, perks and mostly the maps being essencially too much safe generally speaking). Back in the days (2019) this game was A LOT more funnier and healthier despite there was more broken stuff to use for both sides (probably because the broken addons/items were actually RARE and EXPENSIVE, but there are other reasons that i won't waste time to name it otherwise i could wrote an essay).
to put in short words personally speaking i don't have reasons to still play this... Game... since i want to have fun and not being under pressure like if i'm actually working, it's not fun, it's not healthy and it get boring fast... i know that the experience is different for some people (when i see certain streamers for example they have ALWAYS potatoes in their game that don't even know what a loop is just to make an example... I've certain theories even about those situations, but it's offtopic) but for me it's just became stale, unfun and frustrating...
p.s: i refuse to play only survivor since pressing m1 on generators in order to escape is boring as hell and it get old FAST
People are going to make fun of you but you're not wrong. DBD has unfair maps that make 2/31 killers viable when the survivors you play against have more than a potato between their ears.
I will remind everyone that people who play these games professionally for their job (even the ones with 7-9k hours) resort to camping/slugging/tunneling because high level survivor play is too efficient. It gets even worse vs 3-4 man SWF teams which have no limits.
@Aven_Fallen said:
You can win with every Killer against the majority of Survivors. Yes, against some Survivors (a really, really small amount) only a few Killers are viable.
If you think you go against those Survivors all the time, I have a big news for you - you are not ultra-high MMR, you are just not good at the game.
For a bad player even bad Survivors can feel strong.
-"You can win with every Killer against the majority of Survivors."
And that's why 90% of the dbd tournaments have Only Nurse and Blight and the survivors have massive perk/item restrictions. How much you wanna bet if I put together a SWF team that you can't win? Since all killers are viable you will play Doctor.
Game will be played best 2/3 on random maps (no picking). Addons will be limited (no iri, 1 max purple/green per player) and you can't run addons more than once for the 3 game set.
IF you got to play Nurse and Blight sure you might be ok... but you dont get to do that so you will get stomped.
@Iron_Cutlass said:
I do understand where this is coming from, but the statement that "Nurse and Blight are the only two Killers that are barely viable" is laughably stupid.
Ever since I started writing down my statistics, I have won (3K/4K) 85% of my matches as Killer, I do have my off games, but Ive reached the point to where I can play as relaxed as I want because as soon as crap hits the fan I know I can just tunnel and camp my way out of it.
What's my key to success? Unpredictability, I dont run meta. Youd be surprised to see how effective running different perks can be once you know how to utilize them. E.G. Forced Penance is one of my most ran perks; Survivors can avoid it by not taking Protection Hits, which can lead to easy tunneling, likewise, if they do take Protection Hits, I can snowball easily. I always have an ace up my sleeve.
-"the statement that "Nurse and Blight are the only two Killers that are barely viable" is laughably stupid."
-"What's my key to success? Unpredictability, I dont run meta."
You can run no perks/addons vs garbage mid tier survivors and 4k every time for like 50 games. If you do not need to run meta perks then you are playing low skill players.
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Dying Light is a stupid perk because it buffs one survivor.
Imagine if taking Dead Hard buffed the killer with 1% movement (stackable).
You want to buff Dying Light? It's very simple.
1) Every time you hook a survivor that was not the last survivor hooked give all survivors a 4% stackable debuff on healing, generators, totems, chests and doors.
2) The player that begins the trial as the obsession plays the trial broken.
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@HoodedWildKard said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3376772#Comment_3376772
I know prestige isn't necessarily an indicator of skill, but as a correlation most high prestige player will be better. I don't think many new players prestige 100 a single character to the exclusion of all else.
And agreed some of the killer roster are pretty weak. The only "weak" killer I play with any regularity is deathslinger and on that I only play a meme all hex build. Those games are about 50/50.
And as for the streamer, not tunneling/camping is hamstringing yourself. I very rarely camp with demo, i will usually tunnel if survs are genrushing hard. My iri demo build is insane, i never feel out of control with that build, both iri addons, corrupt, to set up my portals, pain res+dms for the regression and locking down gens that are nearly popped. 4th perk I float and switch up, light born if I see 2 or more beamers, iron maiden to stop people trying to hide from the aura reads, sloppy or jolt sometimes if I feel like it. It's a filthy build and if I try while using it the game is easy. tried it in a custom against some friends of mine who are a very experienced swf with 100+ days each and play together a lot. and I absolutely shredded them.
My other build is for when I want to chill, I still "win" about 75-80% of my games with it, and it's just a bp farming build really. Distressing, hex TOTH, bbq and a regressions perk usually jolt or pain res so I have some control of the game. Add ons rotten pumpkin and rat's tail, plus i usually bring streamers or envelope. Good for BP I'll get 1.6k for a single shred hit. And I still usually perform well, though I'll always release one or two at the end after farming with them for a bit.
Out of interest do you know if there's a way players can check their dbd mmr?
Out of interest do you know if there's a way players can check their dbd mmr?
Yes. Only one certain type of player can see them except for DBD moderators. But I'm not allowed to tell you (as per forum rules - if you are smart you will immediately know why). If that doesn't clue you in then I suggest you watch some of Choy's video content in regard to DBD's cheater epidemic.
It was Choy's conversations where we learned the MMR rules.
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@HoodedWildKard said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3376145#Comment_3376145
Actually i ramped my mmr pretty quickly early on. I played demo exclusively for a long time to get good with it. And i had that thing where I hit a wall with killer early because I'd 4k stomped so many weak solo q teams and was getting matched against very experienced players. After grinding that and learning how to counter perks like dead hard, flashlight and bodyblocking those teams started to lose against me.
On xbox I can't inspect most players playtime, only other xbox users, but the ones I do see often have in excess of 100 days play time. And it's nothing unusual for me to see (and beat) full teams of 40+prestiges. Very often obviously swf'd up, working together for bodyblocks/flashlights, genrushing while I'm in chase. I have to work at it for sure, the games aren't easy, but they aren't too much of a struggle either. I know where to pressure to force a 3 gen. If killer knows what buttons to press they have tthe power to control the game against all but the absolute best swfs.
Obvs I don't know the exact numbers for my mmr, and I'm probably not in the top 1% or whatever but my mmr is definitely high. I'm still seeing players with over 5 times my playtime regularly. Don't think I'd be getting that at low mmr.
-"it's nothing unusual for me to see (and beat) full teams of 40+prestiges."
One of the people I met through discord recently has 300 hours and is prestige 100.
-"If killer knows what buttons to press they have tthe power to control the game against all but the absolute best swfs."
I have gotten to the point where generally speaking that's all I end up playing against every game. Most of the killer roster can't handle that.
-"I'm probably not in the top 1% or whatever but my mmr is definitely high"
If you are smashing everyone easily then maybe you need to stream. The only demo player I know is Bronx. He plays extremely nice and wins a lot of his demo gains (but his chat knows that underneath he is a hidden Nemesis main). When he gets that killer SWF team he gets smashed because he never tunnels or camps.
@Raptorrotas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3375989#Comment_3375989
Im not sure if youre being sarcastic, but regardless:
Your point about the balance is wrong. According to the forums the ideal for survivor balance is to buff sirvivor till it reaches swf, which is never as swf also benefits from these buffs unless the buff is "dbd now has voicechat"
Im pretty sure many people consider the border between B+ and A- the "ideal balanced tier". Spirit still to strong for survivor mains.
Spirit was too strong when she had collision with survivors mid phase. Every change after that was unnecessary for balance. We would see a night and day difference in the use of Boons if killers could break the bones base kit (even before they got booned). We would see a similar difference in hex use if killers could rekindle them indefinitely unless all bones were broken. Nobody plays spirit anymore practically because they basically ruined her kit.
There are two "fair" killers in DBD : Nurse/Blight. They are the only two killers with a complete kit that can handle SWF and every map in the game. Compare this to trapper who is basically completely shut down if there is no grass. Compare this to the Pig - the map introduced with that killer 100% shuts her down.
There is essentially one map in the game that is strong for killers and I can't understand why survivors would ever use Mary's letter to take them there.
In my opinion there are two fair maps : Rancid Abattoir and Wreckers yard. Both have small floorplans and a limited number of pallets that are all strong. Both maps have multiple places where a killer can three gen. This is what makes a fair map for 100% of the killer cast. What disqualifies coal tower is the fact that too many tiles get linked together to make "uber tiles" where you can loop for a long time without using up any resources (this can sometimes happen on Iron Works in the corner near shack). The main building is shack on Wreckers yard and the Abattoir is actually very fair with breakable walls.
A terrible examples of breakable walls are Badham/Dead Dog. Punching holes in Badham makes the map better for survivors unless you are Huntress/Trickster. Dead Dog has a main building with a semi infinite loop unless the upstairs and downstairs walls (everyone knows which 2) are broken. Never touch any of the other walls unless you want to make the building stronger.
@Anti051 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3375989#Comment_3375989
Yeah, it'd be swell if killers had a perk like Dead Hard that could just undo the entire pvp interaction in-loop when they get outplayed . Oh wait, nvm, that'd be game-breaking horseshit because then killers wouldn't have to be good at playing the loop, just at pressing E 0.5 seconds before the vault/pallet drop.
It's almost like players shouldn't have a perk that allows them to win anyway after they've already been outplayed.
Or is that just "ignorance."
-"Yeah, it'd be swell if killers had a perk like Dead Hard that could just undo the entire pvp interaction in-loop when they get outplayed"
Got you covered Fam : Gen Hard. Once per game the killer can Press E on an uncompleted generator. When that generator gets completed it reverts to 0% and can never be completed (effectively reducing the map generator count by 1 total).
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@HoodedWildKard said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3375714#Comment_3375714
Im remarkably bad with nurse and blight. I main demo and ghostie closely followed by. clown, spirit and maybe legion. When I play these killers and try, I can generally secure 3/4ks very consistently. I rarely have bad games with them, they happen but not very often. Using my sweaty demo Iri build i haven't seen a 2k or less game in months.
I'll have bad games usually when I'm using a killer I'm not good with if I'm doing a specific challenge or daily ritual. Or when I'm playing my deathslinger hex meme build. Obvs I'll have a bad game when I'm trying every so often, but not often enough to give me any grief or frustration. My mmr has been frequently been putting me with my 600 hours experience against survs with 1,800 hours right up to 6-7k hour players. Co ordinated swfs and (attempted) bully squads. My mmr certainly doesn't feel low, and the games are challenging, I have to work to win them.
My average killer session will be 7-8 games. Usually I get 3ks (tend to let last one go unless they were toxic to me), if my daily ritual is bad I may have a game or two of 1/2ks at the start. Out of the 6-7 games I play properly I'll maybe get the odd 1 or 2k if I get outplayed. And it's been like that for a few months. You play killer right and you dominate the game.
My surv record is much worse. Well over half of my surv games end up being hatch games.
-"You play killer right and you dominate the game."
This is low MMR talk no offense.
You split your games over at least 8 killers so none has reached 1600 MMR so you aren't shunting every killer you own to 1200 MMR minimum. You are playing easy mode. Wake up and pick one killer and play 50 games in a row. You will be like : "oh".
@Saiph said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3375714#Comment_3375714
Here's your problem: at the highest skill levels of DBD that is known to be false.
"Known to be false" ? That's the stats literally published by BHVR. Average 60% killrate, including at high MMR.
This is why when we have DBD comp tournaments the survivors almost always have the limitation : no character/perk/item repeats.
Both roles have restrictions in tournament, not just survivors. Killer players have perk/addon restrictions in tournaments. They are forced to pick their killer in a pool of 3-4 predefined ones which means they must know how to play every killer well. Killers are also forced to play with low ping which gives survivors a massive advantage compared to regular queue. Also it doesn't matter really what restrictions you use since tournament killrates are typically higher than 50%...
Do me a favor please. Pick your favorite/strongest killer and try to win ~50 games in a row with a 4k. The results don't matter; what matters is that getting somewhere around 50 wins should permanently place all your other killers at 1200 MMR. Now you will see the game in a completely different way.
I've done this, and after 300 matches - 90% of which were 3K+ and including a 36 winstreak - I still have the same stance as OP.
There are some tough games sometimes, sure, but these are only against coordinated SWFs with 1000+ hours, and that's pretty rare, maybe 1 game out of 10. For the rest of the matches, the matchmaking barely gives me any better players than it did at the beginning. Half of the players who can't last 10 sec in chase and insta-DC on hook, the other half are good players but solo queue and they lose because their teammates were in the 1st half...
I feel like killer players have very bad memory and only remember the bad games, even though they 4K in most games without realizing it.
And before you say "Nurse" I played Clown, Trapper and Myers. FYI, most killer streamers have got 50-winstreaks or higher if you ask them. Otzdarva did it with every killer including addonless trapper... As for myself, I'm pretty sure I can record a 10 winstreak in just one night, if you don't believe it.
Otz got most of his winstreaks before MMR existed. He "cheated" on the artist sreak by zooming the last 3rd when MMR was turned off. Is he a good player? Yes but you need to view those streaks with asterisks.
A streak should be like this : you play 50 games in a row with that killer and no breaks between. Being able to swap killers lets you abuse some of the holes in the MMR system. I could for example only play games where I play vs 4 solo players on steam. Anything else I dodge. And what if I only played after 4am when there are 0 SWF's until at least noon the next day? Speain is about 8 hours ahead of me and I remember otz doing his win streaks at 6-7pm my time.
But I digress - The point isn't about how many times in a row you can win. The point is when you raise your MMR enough you're going to cross a line you can never go back over. Once you hit 1600 for the first time it will forever limit how low your Killer MMR can go. And that's complete BS.
"There are some tough games sometimes, sure, but these are only against coordinated SWFs with 1000+ hours, and that's pretty rare"
If SWF were rare it might be fine but it isn't. We know the last time they gave us metrics that more than 50% of people played survivor in a SWF and that was before the tunneling epidemic. I suspect it's closer to 60-70% now.
Also as for tournament limitations.... Survivor is always massively more limited than killer except the most extreme of cases that are like - just bring whatever.
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@HoodedWildKard said:
So many threads complaining about this recently. And it mystifies me, I'm no killer main for sure, but not a surv main either. I play both rolls roughly equally. For a start it isn't easy to hit, you can force a trigger by running at killer but it only works against players who M1 at the earliest possible second.
Killer is the easiest roll by a longshot. My mmr has been throwing lots of extremely good teams at me recently. I see DH a lot, but I rarely struggle against it. Baiting it out is pretty easy in most situations, really the only time I lose decent time becuase of it is when it's forced on a pallet. You literally get within swing distance and hold off for one second, watch the dab then drop the surv. It isn't hard. This strategy has worked against players with 100days plus solid play time. My record being one who has played the game for over 300 days.
But the way I see a lot of posts on here complain about it makes lt sound like they swing into it constantly and lose a lot of their games solely due to this perk. So it's either a wider skill issue or just killer main mentality bias, hating on whichever perk irritates them the most.
Tbh from my experience the perk is an important one for game balance, it's probably the best (if high risk) exhaustion perk in the game. Game balance already tips in the killer's favour, without DH, or if it gets nerfed into the ground that gap will only widen and kill rates will spike.
-"Killer is the easiest roll by a longshot."
Here's your problem: at the highest skill levels of DBD that is known to be false. This is why when we have DBD comp tournaments the survivors almost always have the limitation : no character/perk/item repeats.
If you find killer to be the easy role then you're either :
1) Playing Nurse/Blight with best addons all the time vs very good players and crushing them
2) Playing Nurse/Blight with literally whatever and crushing mid tier MMR players.
3) Playing low tier MMR players with any random killer and crushing them.
Do me a favor please. Pick your favorite/strongest killer and try to win ~50 games in a row with a 4k. The results don't matter; what matters is that getting somewhere around 50 wins should permanently place all your other killers at 1200 MMR. Now you will see the game in a completely different way.
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@kill4escape4win said:
What does Myers have?
Semi stealth.
exposed M1.
Obsession add-on.
How to improve and use those?
Surge/jolt is first, he's always doing M1 and only will do M1 so surge/jolt is ALWAYS triggered and so you always have value out of the perk, always, so not using it is a big waste.
Since he can 1 shot a survivor with T3 he doesn't need to hit survivor twice 80% of the time so what can be used to benefit this fact?
Play with your food! you want to have this good lethality the best way possible, being a 1 shot M1 with 130% movement speed is the most powerful thing Myers can be and it offers a very high snowball potential AND makes survivors waste pallets more.
How to be lethal quickly? Enduring with nemesis! those 2 perks together make you have play with your food stack extremely easy while also taking away the pallet, free stack of play with your food is great but the best part about it is "judith's journal" add-on, which makes stalking your obsession 40% faster, add Judith's memorial and you now have a 65% faster stalk rate on your obsession everytime you get stunned.
So you get a play with your food stack, VERY quick stalk, 1 pallet taken away, follow your obsession to get the other stacks with the 99 and let them go, if lucky they wasted more pallets, less to deal with later.
Now you are a 130% 16M terror radius 99 Myers which will appear out of nowhere, go T3, get 1 extremely free down, trigger surge/jolt taking away on average 16% progress (because of 2 gen hit by the perk) with a high chance to down another survivor within 20 seconds triggering surge/jolt for the second time, giving you possibly 2 hooks at every T3 or more, if the obsession try to take the downed survivor up you get a free stack, if you pick up and they go for the other survivor but they are close enough to start a chase it's a free stack and you are back at them with 1 or 2 stacks of play with your food.
2 stacks of play with your food making you 125% makes "safe loops" open for mind games, and since survivors will always keep in mind until they figure out you have PWYF, they think you are 115% and so will try to loop but you are too fast for it and you down them no problem.
It may not look like much but 1 single stack of Play with your food gave me MANY hits that I wouldn't have gotten without it, going 5% faster is a BIG deal, you'd be surprised.
Myers base kit is D tier, no doubt about it, improve it like I did and get a 70+ win streak, make Myers A+ tier, never lose, only win!
Always walk faster than they can run, you can't outrun walking Myers!!!!!!!
MM simple rework.
- Remove the -5% speed in T1 or give him +5% speed for the rest of the game once he gets to T2. Either would be fine.
- Change his power to be like Oni's where he fills the power bar to 100% then taps again to turn the power on.
- Remove stalk on distance penalty and restore Multistalk ability like he had on release. In the movies he stalked from long distances. Now Ghostface has the same duration as MM so MM needs to be stalking faster to be competitive. Maybe even reduce how much "juice" he needs to soak up to get to t2.
- If a player dies or D/C's from the game then have all their stalk juice go to the remaining alive players.
- Give him super fast pallet break inside his power (Something like 3-4 stacks of fire up)
/Fixed.
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@Spectralfx said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3374727#Comment_3374727
It's refreshing to read a well thought out comment like yours,
it's a change from the obvious "pro-survivor, pro-killer" argument we usually have in this forum, I will do my best to emulate that in my future comments because I feel it will be healthier to do so moving on.
having played a lot of survivor lately I feel like the core issue remains solo-Q vs SWF, those two modes are so different and impossible to balance.
In a world where survivors are disorganized and just overall... detrimental to one another (DCing early, taking a chase to the worst possible spots etc.), it is easy for them to cry foul play and oppression on killer's part... but as a killer main when I see those solo Q games and I know what's up and temper my expectation from it.
in short, I feel like losing on the survivors side is often not so much dependent on my own individual performance so it doesn't feels as bad losing, if that make any sense?
but the flip side of that on killer is that when all 4 survivors you are facing are well organized on comms and semi-competent on loops (some maps are just cringe to look at, you can get looped forever through safe windows on Lampkin lane for example, and its absolutely free for survivors)... it feels like the killer is just a bystander stuck in the match having to witness all the "sick tricks" survivors can and will do.
In short, this is why I feel killer has it harder in the end, at no point does survivors feel "completely powerless", they can still "do good" and get some good BPs out of their performance regardless of match outcome, but as killer, the worst end of the spectrum is getting "milked" unless you go AFK in a corner or DC (and take in the penalty) indefinetely.
Survivors can always "turn themselves" in if they are tired of a game, a killer is actually taken hostage until the survivors do the last gen... that's an issue.
-"when all 4 survivors you are facing are well organized on comms and semi-competent on loops (some maps are just cringe to look at, you can get looped forever...and its absolutely free for survivors"
-"at no point does survivors feel "completely powerless", they can still "do good" and get some good BPs out of their performance regardless of match outcome, but as killer, the worst end of the spectrum is getting "milked" unless you go AFK in a corner or DC"
What an amazing write up of how powerless it feels to play vs a good SWF.
Survivors are only completely powerless when they play like noobs in protected match making Or if they play like the devs where they run to a pallet and throw it immediately without looking behind them.
DBD is only a "fair" game when nobody is in a SWF and nobody plays like they have info from a SWF - well even the second part is gone now thanks to the HuD update.
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@AMOGUS said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3374740#Comment_3374740
Based off of your takes and how they align with certain other people here, I highly doubt it.
And yeah, everyone else has pushed for a "fAiR GaMe" too, you're not unique. Problem is, a "fair game" means a game where Killers and Survivors don't have to try, perks, etc are easy to shut down or just ignore and nobody has to consider switching up their builds if they struggle with anything meta or strong.
Hag does not need nerfs, Hag needs buffs, I have no idea why people keep repeatedly that popular opinion, her traps are garbage and easy to counter. Just run over them when she's distracted. So what if she teleports? Then the other Survivor can hop back on gens. Oh, she's "web reliant and 3 gen reliant but then she's TOTALLY AMAZING!!!1"? Well, that sounds like current Skull Merchant. And everyone thinks she's weak.
"you probably see the game as not survivor sided"
It actually is at the highest competitive level, but here's the problem: You most likely are not at a comp level. The majority here are not at a comp level. And if you're wanting SWF nerfed, you most likely don't play both sides, or are at least Killer biased, you have waaaaaay too many Killer takes to not be Killer biased.
And nah, not "more than anything else". Balance is used to achieve fun, if balance is in the way of fun, it gets thrown out. Simple as that. This is a game, not an e-sports device. The game needs to be fun for casuals to sell.
I also said more than that, I said "Or do... anything to counter meta." as well.
Not to mention that I should've been a bit more specific: You should stop playing M1 Killers specifically and consider Killers with anti-loop like Huntress, Plague or Nemesis. M1 Killers will always struggle against goated survivors, DH and COH can be gone and you will still lose to them without them making major mistakes. It's not because of "MUH DH", it's because they know meta strategies like optimal gen rush and being aggressive on gens. If you want to deal with their meta stuff + tactics, play a better Killer. Doesn't have to be Nurse or Blight.
Not to mention that, technically, most Killers do have at least weak anti-loop (Trapper with his traps, Pig with her Ambush, Myers with vault speed, higher movement speed and lunge increase, Ghosty with no TR + no red stain with a button press), but you want them to have Huntress-level anti-loop I'm assuming. Which is fine.
"Imagine if you could only play solo queue only in a specific mode and you can't use Nurse/Blight but you cant use boons or DH. Or we could do the sensible thing and nerf those perks to oblivion like we did for Eruption."
Nobody would play that mode without incentive.
And nah lmao, let's just fix Eruption and rework + buff boons. Because let's be fair, if you get what you want, you guys will move onto WoO or whatever perk shoots to the top next on Nightlight, and then write paragraphs as to why that needs to be removed because "you TOTALLY would've won if those darned Survivors didn't have it!"
-"You most likely are not at a comp level. The majority here are not at a comp level. And if you're wanting SWF nerfed, you most likely don't play both sides, or are at least Killer biased"
First I play against people who are part of the comp scene in my random matches pretty often. It's more rare for me to see someone under 500 hours than to see someone with 5000 hours.
Then we have your logic error.
"[DBD] actually is [survivor sided] at the highest competitive level."
Comp level play is a 4 man swf. The broken nature of letting a SWF bring whatever they want allows random people in a SWF to play at comp levels with no restrictions. In other words : comp play is easier because they can't bring more than 1 medkit/toolbox and cannot repeat any perks. Without restrictions SWF teams that play at a high level get to bully killers; this gives those killers bad feelings which lead to an "arms race" where everyone loses.
-"You should stop playing M1 Killers specifically and consider Killers with anti-loop like Huntress, Plague or Nemesis."
You are funny if you didn't think I did that years ago. But I desire for all the killers to be viable or all the killers to have a fair arena in which to play. In the current balance hard locking many of the killers to 1200-1400 MMR would do exactly that. But survivors would hate it because then it would be 99% Nurse and Blight at anything over 1600 MMR.
When you see a huntress you would get this :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTfzUIsSgGU-" Because let's be fair, if you get what you want, you guys will move onto WoO or whatever perk shoots to the top next on Nightlight"
This is a strawman argument because historically it is exactly what the survivors do and as 4/5ths of the audience the devs listen. Most of the perks that get massive use by survivors get gentle taps.
The 6.0 rework gutted : Eruption, Pop and Scourge hook pain res.
The 6.0 rework buffed : Borrowed time (base kit - so nobody ever uses it), Dead Hard is better for the top players, and survivors got SWF level info sharing with the new Hud.
It's a sham to say that the last year of development has been anything but 2 steps forward for survivor and 1 step forward for killer.
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@martinj97 said:
Map size isn't the issue per se, it's the distance between gens. There should always be constrained approximately the same regardless of map size. Then some maps can be slightly more survivor titled by having more "safe space" outside the gen area, and vice versa.
Let's say every map had some kind of pattern where the gens were perfectly spaced. Small maps would work and large maps would not. Why? On large maps you could just shift W into a corner use a pallet there and then when hit shift W back to usable tiles somewhere else.
Remember that small maps make shift W less viable. This is one of the things that is needed for m1 killers.
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@albertoplus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/368420/actual-state-of-the-game-is-awful
One survivor got killed because he got tunneled out of the game and 3 gens still left? What were the other survivors doing?
On my case, i start the game with 4 gens when i catch the first survivor, if the chase was fast and smooth. If he got to a strong loop i can start the game with 3 gens already (and most of people seems to agree that losing 1 or even 2 gens on first chase is "normal").
So, i don't really get the "tunnel at 5 gens best strat" thing? You camp and tunnel first survivor? Okay, the other survivors just slap gens. Game ends with 1k and 3 escapes.
Is that the "best" strat?
-"i don't really get the "tunnel at 5 gens best strat" thing? You camp and tunnel first survivor? Okay, the other survivors just slap gens."
And what happens if I down your friend inside my 3 gen and they are on the hook in the middle of it. You blast 3 gens that I don't care about and i get to kill your friend. You dont get to touch the 3 gens that matter to end the game. You don't get to rescue your friend. That means the situation is worse when I hook or slug the next person and do the same thing all over again.
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@Rovend said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3374756#Comment_3374756
But this will create its own set of problems.
First, Giving more gen time in favour of the killer could stop tunneling for some killers but if you dont actually give some restriction to tunneling as a strat then everyone will switch back to tunnel as soon as anything goes wrong in a match. This was what happened when BHVR gave 90sec gens, most killers used this new time to tunnel with less risk.
Second, if BHVR were to put the 9% debuff per hook, then they would need to heavily rework every perk that gives any kind of slowdown. 9% x4 for a 36% debuff at 4 hooks means you are getting a full stack pre nerf thana effect for only 3 hooks.
36% + current thana: 56%
36% + 1-stack pentimento : 66%
36% + gift of pain: 52%
we are looking at Forever Freddy's type of game with a lot of builds.
-"First, Giving more gen time in favour of the killer could stop tunneling for some killers but if you dont actually give some restriction to tunneling as a strat then everyone will switch back to tunnel as soon as anything goes wrong in a match."
A killer that hooks everyone once and then hooks the next person twice still gave everyone quite a bit of gameplay. Otherwise it's see a jake hook jake 3 times. Who is next?
-"if BHVR were to put the 9% debuff per hook, then they would need to heavily rework every perk that gives any kind of slowdown. 9% x4 for a 36% debuff at 4 hooks means you are getting a full stack pre nerf thana effect for only 3 hooks."
Or we could address the core gameplay that lets survivors get 3 gens with one hook state. It's totally fine according to some of the devs to lose 3 gens in the first chase (hint : it's not). Thana is trash 99% of the time. The perk you wanna watch out for might surprise you : Dying Light.
Now granted this perk needs a rework. Remove all the parts about buffing survivors. Change the perk to have nothing dealing with the Obsession instead read - you get a stack as long as you hook someone different each hook.
Imagine if this perk said : you get a token as long as the last person you hooked was not the same as the person you hooked before that.
That would allow you to get 12% per hook for the first few hooks. DL doesn't work typically because the game is over by the time you build to ~24% debuff.
-"we are looking at Forever Freddy's type of game with a lot of builds."
It's either slow the gens down base kit or reward the killer for not tunneling. There is no reward for not tunneling so people wont do that. Would you rather 4 people have been alive for a while or the killer makes the game 3v1 asap?
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3374739#Comment_3374739
All things equal why would I play against a 4 man SWF? Convince me.If you continually lobby dodge to get the easy games, you'll win, raising your MMR. This will necessitate even more lobby dodging in the future.
It might even lead to a skewed view of the game where you've pushed your MMR via dodging that you think the game design is fundamentally broken.
-"It might even lead to a skewed view of the game where ... you think the game design is fundamentally broken."
Sorry but that's been a thing recognized by the community for years. Are you familiar with the Marth Experiment? Mclean who was a DBD dev at the time said : "we weren't trying to make a fair game".
Also for the record I play against plenty of SWF teams that bring 2 people on console and 2 people on steam to make it look like they are not a 4 man lobby. I feel pretty certain I've reached the limit of who I can play against.
Me winning or losing is really more of a factor that depends on the map and minor RNG like which generator is placed where.
Two days ago I played an extremely close game on Groaning Storehouse. They broke my three gen setup on that map (which is incredibly hard to do against me - but the RNG was massively in their favor for the generator spawns) around the same time I killed one player. Unfortunately for them I also had 8 stacks of STBFL and most of the good pallets were used as well as all of their items. They had a boon which I pressured a few times and kept them injured/slugged to reset the progress on the remaining generators.
It was a really fun game but I have to think what if I had played that team on a different map? Torment Creek would have been an automatic loss. Father Campbell's chapel would have been an automatic win.
I'm at the point where a lot of the game is decided by maps more than anything else and sometimes it is decided by an iri/purple item addon. I limit who I play against because there is no point in playing against the top 1% elite players who stack every possible option in their favor.
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@Chilli_man2400 said:
What happened to these 2 perk types? The last time we got a new scourge perk was Floods of rage(I don’t count monstrous shrine cause that was a rework). And our last boon was dark theory. Both of those perks came out March 2022 it’s 1 YEAR later and we haven’t gotten any new perks with them?
If you look at Hex and obsession perks they would get new ones almost every update with killers. But not these 2.
Scourge hooks I don’t think failed but it’s hard trying to come up with ideas to make these perks strong that they need only 4 hooks. Idk why we haven’t gotten more cause there very unique and cool to use.
Boons I think went back to the drawing board cause omg we haven’t even gotten a new one in a year. Dark theory and COH were just so badly designed that I think they were just scrapped all together. We might see boon changes this mid chapter but I think they need to rework boons to make them more fairly designed.
Boons completely outshine hexes. So nobody uses hexes except without some cheese angle like using the Whistle on Demo so you can literally always know if someone touches the totem.
Make core games changes to make boons more equal to hexes:
- hexes can be rekindled on any totem location bones have not been broken. Any totem with charges has its charges reset when re-kindled
- Give the killer the option to kick dull totems to break them "base kit". Change Shattered Hope to do something else.... how about : the player that started the game as the obsession plays the game broken.
Every time you bring another scourge hook you should get +4 white hooks. Monstrous shine already does this but if you have 3 scourge perks then you should get 12 white hooks.
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@Crowman said:
It's not that tunneling needs cons. It's that not tunneling needs to actually reward the killer.
Having 3 survivors with 1 hook each means nothing compared to 1 survivor with 3 hooks. There's no reason for killers to spread hooks, because there's no benefit to it.
No matter what changes get made to tunneling, it is still better to make the game a 3v1 than to spread hooks out.
So let's make a base kit change. Each player you hook for the first time gives every survivor a 9% debuff to healing, generators,totems, doors, chests, etc. If someone dies and then you hook someone for the first time you do not get the 9% bonus.
Also since survivors got base kit borrowed time why not give killers base kit deadlock. Add rollback protection so that if two generators finish at once then one is reverted to 99% and is blocked. Make the perk by the same name keep the generator blocked for an extra 30 seconds (60 total).
Finally make it harder for survivors to tunnel generators. Change generator placement on all maps so that more of the generator spawns allow for a possible 3 gen setup. Make all the maps smaller so that no map is larger than 9000m².
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@DrFrozen said:
Awful meta...
TUNNELING ISSUE:
Tunneling has become really good strategy to win every single game. You had been hanged finally had got unhooked and... hooked again until you are dead. This makes game unfun for survivors and playing without one of them when 3 gens are left is insanely difficult...
SLOWDOWN ISSUE:
Right now most killers are running 4 slowdown perks such as CoB, Surge, etc. Playing against Eruption before the nerf was so frustrating so thanks to the God BHVR has decided to nerf it but still slowdown perks are top tier and taking 4 make survivors bored to death...
TAKING GAME HOSTAGE ISSUE:
No need to talk about this... still not fixed
SO WHY DO KILLERS TUNNEL ?
It is so hard to keep up with 4 survivors cause currently they can be a little too efficient. Even taking 4 medkits, each granting 2 heals, makes the game totally survivor sided. Each team takes CoH which additionaly grants infinite medkit. It is true that DH is most picked perk in the whole entire game - stats say it has over 30% pick rate but at high level you can see 2+ ( it can considerably increase time it takes to catch survivor or even forces you to leave them when they get to a really strong loop ). It seems like tunneling is the best option to get rid of 1 survivor and as a result it allows you to keep other 3 under control.
WHY DO KILLERS TAKE SO MUCH SLOWDOWN ?
Every single time I try to do some fun build taking meme perks like Furitive, game ends like in about 3 or 4 minutes cause survivors usually take some rushing perks like prove thyself or toolboxes with Brand New Parts. Survivors are not willing to be tunneled so they want to do gens as quick as possible. Additionaly Hex totems are a lot weaker and nerfing NOED as the consequence made survivors meh about doing bones.
BOTH SIDES ARE UNHAPPY
Killers should be encouraged to run other perks than slowdown so maybe BHVR should rework useless perks granting them brand new effects. Survivors should be less efficient with healing so killers would be happy by spreading real pressure with hits. Maybe this will help killers so they can take other perks and adjust their playstyle.
Killers tunnel because they literally have no choice most of the time. Their objective is too long relative to the survivor objective and an efficient team can trade 5 hooks for 5 generators and then get all four players to escape.
If you want to stop tunneling then you need to change the game for both sides.
- Give the killer generator tunneling protection. Survivors got free Borrowed time. Give killers Deadlock base kit. Add rollback protection so that if two gens are compelted at the same time then one rolls back to 99% progress and is blocked. Make the perk by the same name add +30 seconds to the timer.
- Give the killer 1:1 generator regression base kit if 4 players are alive. Now the killer has a reason not to tunnel
- Give the killer buffs for hooking each unique player once before anyone dies. As an example this needs to be something like a 9% debuff to the survivors finishing generators/healing/etc. Why is that value at 9%? At 8% it's less efficient than hooking one player 3 times to kill them. That by the way causes generator repair rates to decrease permanently by 25% for the rest of the game.
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@Riski said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3374739#Comment_3374739
For the last point that is a terrible idea. Every time a killer is buffed, the meta is shaken up you have to change the MMR cap. Viability isn't just fixed it changes on regions and addons so does the soft cap change per region? You also ######### up your data making future changes harder to judge. At that point if you're putting in all this effort it's better to make some tangable change and just improve those killers more directly, rather than a change that requires more work down the line.
Also for the first point, most people aren't cheating and if they are I doubt they care about dodging strong killers.
-"most people aren't cheating"
You aren't privy to that information. Imagine for a moment someone figures out how to run the game in stretched resolution again. The devs called that a cheat. If all the best players are doing that well that's a problem because the devs think they fixed that. This doesn't even begin to address anything else.
Every killer in the game needs to be viable. What does a killer need to be viable?
- Fast Movement (see Nurse/Blight).
- Strong Antiloop (see Nurse/Blight)
- Fast Downs (see Nurse Blight - get the idea yet?).
For the old killers like trapper you could make them viable with a few tweaks. How do we fix trapper?
- Make him 120% movement speed base . Do this to every killer w/o a movement power. This will give him "weak" antiloop because you cant loop him like you used to be able to and will need to drop pallets early/often.
- Make the Bloody Coil Base kit (injures a survivor on trap disarm). Buff Bloody coil effect : wounded survivors disarming a trap get a deep wound.
- Replace bloody coil effect with new iri addon (pick one): A) Traps cannot be disarmed without a toolbox or the sabotage perk. You can walk into them to disarm them. B) Traps are invisible to survivors except within 1m of their hitbox. When a survivor gets within 1m of a trap it starts to appear slowly with a fade in effect. Quality of life change to other Iri addon : make it so traps armed that you did not place are yellow.
- Restore the hitbox of traps to the 2016 radius. Increase the visual size of beartraps if necessary.
- Make the trapper start with 4 traps in hand. Make the other 4 spawn in an X patter in the middle of the map (not the map edges - #########). Change purple trapper sack to give the trapper +2 traps in hand on game start and +1 trap on the floor in the middle of the "x".
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Here's a quick guide to making fair maps:
- No maps can be larger than 9000m².
- Do not allow massive linked tiles (see Scott Jund's dream patch notes). Coal tower is one of the biggest offenders for this because too often you have 3 tiles linked together and you can loop it a long time before needing to use any pallets. This breaks the game.
- Make the majority of any pallets in a map "mindgameable". Go pull out some video and look at the Stranger things map. Most of the pallets on this map are "unsafe". No matter what no map should ever have more than 14 pallets.
- Do not make maps that require the killer to 3 gen. Everyone knows Azarov's resting place is a problem- but so are the suffocation pit, Dead Dawg, RPD and Haddonfield. All the good players can immediately tell you which generator you need to finish on game start to break the killer's 3 gen. In fact let's rewrite this rule to be : maps should have multiple locations where the killer can hold a 3 gen.
- Stop making "extreme time wasting" features on main buildings. Remember how busted the old Iron Works of Misery map was for years? Obviously the devs do not since they made an even more broken version of that with the Garden of Joy. That building should have a single strong window that leads outside. In case you don't know we can have a window on the back wall , the window by the generator and the window on the back/side that is close to a god pallet on the side of the house. Every game have "one" of these windows open and close the other two. What other Maps have broken Main buildings? Shelter woods and Badham immediately come to mind.
While we're on the subject let's delete the jungle gym right next to the "car park" on the Garden of Joy map. That area is always like a 6 tile link hotspot and is a perfect example of how not to design a map. The linked tiles are completely gros to play against.
Ok since we seem to be using this map as a bad example let's talk about generator placement. Largely speaking the gens are in a "U" shape around the map. This makes holding a 3 gen near impossible. We could use one generator on the front porch - combine this with the window changes and maybe the window is open or not and maybe the generator upstairs can spawn on the front porch. Move the "Car park" generator about 10m closer to the main building. Move the generator between Shack and the jungle gyms around car park about 10m closer to the house. Move the shack Generator outside of shack about 10m closer to the house. Delete the generator spawn in the far corner of the map (same side of the wall as shack but on the "back side" of the house).
See where I'm going with this? Also it's just easier to re-imagine this map as a 9000m² area (for point of reference this map has 10496m² right now).
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This perk is what I would call pretty fair risk reward. Saying : boons work better so this perk needs to get buffed is not a good argument. Why? Because boons are "OP".
Killers should be able to kick a boon base kit and destroy the bones. That creates adequate risk for using a boon perk. So let's make bone kicking by the killer a base part of the game and then Autodidact is buffed by proxy.
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@Deathstroke said:
Gens go too fast and only way to somewhat control the match as killer is to tunnel/camp someone out or just defend 3 gen area. So gens should be increased im fine ds getting buff or tunneling overall nerfed someway but gens need to go slower.
The problem with DBD right now is that you cant really defend generators vs efficient survivors (especially in a SWF).
A better solution would be to heavily limit how quickly you can hasten them. Example : gens take 90 seconds. No matter what perk or item you bring you can only make them finish 9 seconds faster. After that your prek/item deactivates.
An even better solution would be to keep generators at 90 seconds of progress but give the killer 1:1 generator regression base kit. If a player is killed then the killer loses 25% of their regression rate.
And a better solution still would be to let the killer kick finished generators. Require the survivors to have 5 generators powered to power the doors. In order to prevent the killer from kicking the last generator over and over you could do something like once the gates are powered they have power for 30 seconds. Then the killer could kick the generator and make the survivors get it to 100% progress to escape.
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@AMOGUS said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3373866#Comment_3373866
Mostly bad ideas, again, that demonstrate why the devs don't listen to the forums. And why I was right about it speaking volumes.
Your "simple fix" absolutely will be abused by Killers to ensure you always get solo queue Survivors, so that won't be happening. And to break down your list...
- Nope, hurts casuals SWFs and solos in the match.
- Nope, hurts casuals SWFs and solos in the match.
- Your Shattered rework sounds bad and unfair for the obsession, sorry. A doesn't include boon buffs when it should. B sounds interesting though.
- I can't math so I'm going to assume that's bad since maps that are too small are typically too easy to patrol, which shouldn't be the case.
- Or you can just kick the god pallet? This is such a miniscule complaint, god pallets don't buy much in the grand scheme of things and there isn't nearly enough to bother. And if you're going to go "BORGO", still not enough god pallets. RPD has noticeably more, but once they're gone, those rooms become dead zones.
Consider the following: To deal with meta, you should play meta. Or do... anything to counter meta. I have no idea why this community is so entitled that they should be able to easily and consistently shut down meta stuff (whether it be perks, add-ons, etc) while not changing anything about their builds or playstyles, not even perks or add-ons.
I sense you're a "Killer main" like Spectral tbh, your opinions are waaaay too Killer biased. If DBD ever looks at listening to pros for upcoming updates, I hope they filter feedback that comes from Survivor/Killer "mains" who give takes like this.
-"I sense you're a "Killer main""
I play both sides well but I play killer at a higher level. I have always pushed for DBD to be a "fair game". I will be the first to say Hag should get a nerf so that survivors can scratch out her traps while crouched. Needing a flashlight is unfair because Franklins exists. Most people go nuts and say well Hag is a bad killer so it's fine; no it's not fine.
To make a long story short you probably see the game as not survivor sided overall (and it is according to all the top players). DBD needs to be a fair game more than anything else. It's only fair when the survivors are bad/disorganized.
-"To deal with meta, you should play meta."
In other words Nurse and Blight work fine so there's no problem - just play those killers. That's not a viable option. I enjoy playing the other killers and want every killer in the game to be viable. Every killer should be within 15% of the power rating of the very best killer.
Every killer should have :
- Antiloop
- Some kind of fast movement (either 120% base speed or map teleports that survivors cant use - see monster hunter world teleports). Note : every map needs to be 9000m² or there are problems. How so? The old game had small maps and it was common that you chase player 1 and run into player 2 working on a generator. This does not happen on large maps.
- Fast downs.
If we had a league mode of some kind it might make sense. Imagine if you could only play solo queue only in a specific mode and you can't use Nurse/Blight but you cant use boons or DH. Or we could do the sensible thing and nerf those perks to oblivion like we did for Eruption.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
Several things contribute to this:
1) Survivors can't see the killer's prestige, cosmetics, power (item) in the lobby. Survivors leaving a lobby are basically blind, or at least are not making an informed 'dropping because I actively see a problem' decision. The killer has all this information right away. Dodging after the match starts is an issue, but not what we're talking about here.
2) There are roughly 4 times as many survivors, the majority of which are solos, and generally short queue times. So chances are good that even if a survivor dodges at the lobby, they get replaced by a similar MMR survivor and the match is basically the same as if the first survivor had stayed.
3) I personally do drop and requeue a lobby *if* I see the killer dodge first, and I encourage the others to requeue also. I have noticably worse games when the killer dodges, which is why I consider lobby dodging to ruin the game for all 5 players.
-"Survivors can't see the killer's prestige, cosmetics, power (item) in the lobby."
Sadly this is not true because DBD has terrible cheat protection.
-"I have noticably worse games when the killer dodges, which is why I consider lobby dodging to ruin the game for all 5 players"
When I play killer I agree that the lobby is usually weaker if multiple people dodged. What to know why? I can easily tell who is solo and who is not. It's just a fact that solo queue players are not as strong as a SWF.
All things equal why would I play against a 4 man SWF? Convince me.
"You mess up the game for others" - too bad..... SWF messes up the game for me.
Why would I play against a lobby with 4 items when I can "shop" around and get a lobby with 0-2 items instead? Lobbies with fewer items are weaker than lobbies with 4 items (all things being equal).
When it comes to high tier players the game is rigged against the killer. DBD isn't balanced for efficient survivors and when I play killer I play around the limitations. So I will definitely dodge any lobby that looks like it might be "Sus".
The ideal lobby I don't dodge is 2 people in a swf and 2 solo players with 1-2 items or 1-3 weak items. I could "not" lobby dodge but then I get more frustrating games and fewer points per hour.
Before we address lobby dodging we need to address : Making the game fair to killer first. A knee jerk reaction that to fix the fact that Nurse and Blight reign supreme over every other archetype would be to give all the "lesser" killers MMR caps. As an example softcap the trapper's MMR at like 1200 MMR. If you keep winning you can go up but you are hardcapped at say 1400 MMR. Do this for all the killers that are not Nurse/Blight.
That way we have the best players always playing the best 2 killers. In the following year you take the time and effort to make every killer in the game within 15% of the power of Nurse and Blight. Then you remove the MMR caps.
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@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/368435/why-havent-they-buffed-sadako-yet
sadako main here! 💕❤️
I 💯 agree. She’s very underwhelming and under powered.
The Onyro isn’t in a good place right now here’s why….It’s been almost a year and people have begged and begged for sadako to get a buff all across the internet.
She’s the most bullied killer and survivors know it.
This is just what I’ve noticed from playing her and other peoples game play.
*Hardcore streamers that go on 200+ kill streaks are sweating for these matches which is 💯 fine 💕 however average players are getting stomped by survivors so it’s no surprise the stats and data is showing her doing fine.
*Sadako shouldn’t have to wait 30 seconds for her power to turn on at the start of the match when other killers have their abilities up in 10 seconds.
*Sadako has no chase or anti loop at ALL. You spend way too much time chasing people and breaking pallets. The time you do this the survivor is already at their next loop while 2 or 3 gens just popped…Now you only have 1 or 2 hooks at most.
If you’re not going to give her a chase power which is 💯 fine then you have to buff her power kit. 100 seconds on TV cooldowns isn’t going to work. The TV 📺 has to be more High Risk/High Reward. Survivors ignore tvs all together.
*Survivors also heavily ignore grabbing tapes, I mean why bother? You can get away really easily when she crawls out of the TV. Condemn needs to be more threatening and not ignored. Same with her TVs.
*Also sidenote; Sadakos gets slapped with pallets and stunned when she’s several meters away from the pallet. The hitbox is off. Same with vaults/windows, hits don’t register but if it were The Knight it would.
*The time you actually start getting a lot of condemn stacks on survivors built up putting in all that effort especially against higher levels the generators are all already done. It takes 2 and half mins before they’re killable by condemn. You could do a whole generator and a half, but again, nobody interacts with tvs, so condemn doesn’t put much pressure on people. It needs to be more threatening and interactable at the tvs mentioned before.
*Survivors shouldn’t be able to insert their tape directly in sadakos face. Unfortunately they can and there is nothing she can do to stop you. You can pull people off windows, vaults, pallets, gens, etc but not her own tvs? Lol
she doesn’t need major buffs by any means but definitely needs a little love from the team 💕
As questioned turkey says “she has great potential but should be able to have that looming presence making survivors feel on edge.
Anywho, these are just my thoughts. Not asking for all of these changes. Just a little balance tweak for her. SOMETHING please 🙏🏼💕
-"*Sadako shouldn’t have to wait 30 seconds for her power to turn on at the start of the match when other killers have their abilities up in 10 seconds. "
Powers that let you go completely across the map in an instant should have a cooldown. It makes no sense that Nurse is not a buildup killer but Nemesis and MM are. That's because Nurse clearly is "inferior", right?
-"Survivors shouldn’t be able to insert their tape directly in sadakos face"
Disagree. As it is you can chain teleport across the map and prevent people from ever getting tapes. In my opinion a survivor should always be able to go to a TV and get a tape unless someone is already holding a tape from that TV.
Why? It's a fair play aspect.
Let's look at Nemesis and his infections. (Nemesis also needs buffs btw even something simple like t3 whip = infect+injury).
He has addons that are time duration events so they are useless and nobody ever uses them.
Make both of these read : permanent if infected. The hindered status in this case should be something like 3% so it's at a point where a super crazy strong player would notice and in most cast it won't matter.
Even still the Oblivious status is pretty worthless given the HuD info. Maybe we should have Blindness "black out" the hud info.
Nemesis always has 4 vaccines and adding these would make you want to cleanse but not OMG I have to cleanse or my head blows up. Sadako is basically in the "head blow up" category with condemn. Being infected vs Nemesis is 100% just a "detection" boost for him being able to hear you if you try to hide. I would say overall at least 75% of people don't hide so it does very little (probably closer to say 85-90 but I tend to make conservative estimates).
If you make the Sadako mini game stronger then nobody will play her normally. I am guessing you would be opposed to survivors getting a buff if they use a tape right? And I feel certain you would never get condemn buildup if survivors could always get a tape even from an "off" tv.
She is in a spot where you can't make it stronger without buffing the interaction for survivors. In short this is the Michael Myers zone. More than any other killer he needs a 2023 update even if it is just small QoL tweaks. A prime example would be to make his power activation like Oni where you fill the meter and then press again when filled to turn on T3.
Most people don't like to admit it but Hag was kinda overbuffed in her last rework. She can use flashlights to remove them from a survivor's hand so the average player has no real counter to her power.
"Just duck".
Right. See here's the problem - Hag can teleport to a hook if you trigger the trap and she can just walk over and hit you if you duck because she spammed the area with traps. This is what we call a catch 22. The same problem exists with her traps in general in that you can only counter them with a flashlight so she should always bring Franklin's Demise. Hag used to have a much shorter teleport range and that actually was fair for the mechanic but encouraged tunneling. I think it would be interesting if they changed her teleport to take more time if you are farther away unless you bring the addon to prevent that (replaces range addon for teleport).
Hag is overall "something" of a weak killer if everyone knows what to do. The last round of survivor buffs destroyed hag's tunnel/camp method with 10 seconds of base kit BT. This was a good nerf to her that unfortunately is a punishment to every other killer.
In one sense it's "fine" for her traps to be able to make catch 22 scenarios because most people playing her suck. There is a logic error here but we can ignore it for the most part. Almost nobody likes Hag. Very few people are good with Hag so maybe it's not worth the effort to rework her? When they are good it is because they abuse the nature of flashlights with Franklins. One simple change would make Hag fair : let crouching still survivors scratch out her traps.
All 6 of the hag Mains will immediately jump to the forum and scream bloody murder as to why they cant do that. Yes it is true - the top 1% of players can abuse hag. But what about everyone else? Almost everyone else is forced to suffer in a game where the hag knows you have no counter to her power. The only thing you can do is have people "yolo run" around and break her trap net when she is busy. Once again - the only reason Boons are even remotely fair is because people playing Hag highlight how cheap they can make the gameplay of DBD.
I would say buff hexes. Make hexes be something a killer can rekindle if there are bones remaining on the map. And then also allow killers to base kit break bones when a boon is active. Then allow survivors to scratch out traps if ducking.
Hag would be stronger with stronger totems that take more effort to destroy. She would be less cheap vs flashlights which are supposed to be her hard counter. And she would have an answer to boons besides hoping someone decides to stop placing them.
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@Skill_issue said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3370850#Comment_3370850
it is unfair that pc players get good flicks as well as better aiming with killers like trickster and console players just get bargain versions of those killers
It's also unfair Billy used to be fun to play and they said lets nef billy and make Oni exist.
Oni should never be buffed while he has flicks with his power at all. There are not many games that do pc/console crossovers with PVP in mind. There is not much competition when it comes to mouse vs stick. In flight games we have stick wasd.
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@Desteriaa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3365992#Comment_3365992
No amount of time you put into the game as a survivor no amount of looping is gonna stop you from being tunneled😂. Bringing up skill in regards to tunneling is just hilarious bc the one who has skill issue clearly is the killer. Basekit Bt absolutely does nothing & expecting a survivor not to help their teammates is so stupid.
This is simply not true. If you have a really good team on a survivor sided map (which you can select) then you can absolutely punish a killer tunneling. Alternatively you could just punish by gen rushing. Most maps are extremely punishing to defend if you break the killer's 3 gen setup.
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@AMOGUS said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3371779#Comment_3371779
Sorry, but the fact that you're on the Tru3Talent "nerf SWF" train speaks volumes.
That stat was from before the HUD buffs, surely, and those buffs make a note-worthy difference.
Limiting SWF is actually 100% a punishment because there are plenty of SWF groups who play casually and will crumble with decent pressure. Your update will not only meet massive outcry, but will lead to plenty of casuals leaving the game.
8 perks if you so much as run into any kind of SWF, like a casual 2 man, is absolutely a riot btw. Classic example of why the devs don't listen to the forums.
-"Sorry, but the fact that you're on the Tru3Talent "nerf SWF" train speaks volumes."
An efficient SWF ruins the game for killer unless you play every game as Nurse/Blight. A simple fix would be : create a solo queue only mode. You pick a killer and a survivor and the game picks one of those roles for you to play. Nobody is in a SWF and everyone plays solo.
If you want to make realistic fair changes to DBD it would take some effort.
- Give the killer 1:1 regression with the survivors if 4 are alive. Each dead player reduces the rate by 25%.
- Give the killer Deadlock base kit. Make the perk by the same name add +30 seconds to the timer. Make Deadlock have rollback protection so that if you get two gens completed at the same time then one rolls back to 99% completion. Make sure that survivor's cant block a gen with a sneaky use of Repressed Alliance (deadlock would block that generator after RA finished).
- Make proper boon/hex reforms. Here we have two options: A) Make breaking dull/lit totems on kick base kit and make the perk do something else. How about - The obsession plays the game broken. B) Let the killer relight their hexes indefinitely unless all bones are destroyed. Give killer a "hex totem" perk slot.
- Make all maps smaller than 9000m².
- Give M1 killers a means so that a god pallet does not mean "you have to kick this pallet to continue the chase". Being able to rekindle Blood Favor would actually work to this end. Or we could just Buff Brutal Strength to additionally read : every 60 seconds your lunge attack can break a pallet. Or we could just make generators take +20 seconds base to account for maps that have way too many god pallets.
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@Spectralfx said:
I am not sure how to go about it, but for certain, the game balance should be geared towards killer having a fighting chance against SWF because has of right now, them being on voice comms sharing perfect in real-time information they would not have access to under the game's design makes it unplayable for killers.
honestly, the recent nerf to our perks really hurts our ability to pressure such survivors and the new buff to solo queue with the magical UI exarcerbates that issue even more...
now you never know if they are on coms or just, you know, able to understand the implications of the free information they are now getting.
honestly it can't keep on going like this, survivors are already the power role right now and playing killer is actually anxiety inducing at the time, it's so unfun.
Voice coms offer the equivalence of multiple perks worth of information. When I play SWF those voice coms usually weigh in as if I had somewhere between 8-12 more perks. This completely breaks the game.
It's really simple. Give the killer +4 perk slots that only activate in case of SWF. If the game features SWF then they get 4 more perks that activate as part of their current loadout.
Do the same for solo queue survivors in the same game - but only give them information perks like kindred, bond, rookie spirit, etc.
-"honestly, the recent nerf to our perks really hurts our ability to pressure such survivors and the new buff to solo queue with the magical UI exarcerbates that issue even more."
If the idea was to make solo queue stronger then the hud changes did that. It's really not fun to play against. Still though I would welcome the changes if it meant I got +4 perks every game.
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@not_requested49 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3371650#Comment_3371650
Again, this doesn't help at all if you are the one being facecamped, it's completely reliant on your team bringing it (which is rare)
Plus, if it's in the basement against a Bubba, using the Reassurance will only get you hooked because it has such a short range to activate
-"this doesn't help at all if you are the one being facecamped,"
Explain to me how the survivors are allowed to extend one player's hook timer by 30 seconds per player? Using Pop that many times is an entire game's worth of uses.
And you're saying : oh it wont work that way because not all survivors bring that perk.
Reassurance when stacked on a team is one of the biggest ways you can waste the killer's time.
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@Peanits said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3370568#Comment_3370568
For what it's worth, the overwhelming majority of matches have hardly any different in ratings. It is not common for the matchmaker to expand to the maximum range- most people will have a match long before that can happen. It'll be a little more common if you're at an unusually high or low rating or if you're playing in off-peak hours for your region, but at that point there's only so much the matchmaker can do. No matter how long you wait, it can't find you a better match without players of your skill level playing at that time in your region.
-"It is not common for the matchmaker to expand to the maximum range- most people will have a match long before that can happen."
I suspect that while you believe this to be true it might not be true.
I have no reason to believe that BHVR is being deceitful but I have played other games where the company straight up lied to the players. I'd like to see for my own eyes that the match maker is working right. I'd like to see everyone's MMR after a game is concluded.
My only option is to have faith and blindly believe what you say. I really want to believe you - but there could be some massive bug and it's doing the wrong thing and you don't know.
@KingFieldShipper said:
Just so you know people did ask for a new matchmaking system because ranks sucked too
Sorry but ranks were better than MMR.
Every month ranks reset. Every month you had a chance to start over and didn't have to play every game like you're yanking someone's teeth out for money.
The reset was good for the player base because bad players had a chance to briefly encounter good players and see what strengths the other side truly has.
I will also point out that when we had ranks instead of MMR we did not have the incredibly stupid gen rush/tunneling issue that is plaguing the game right now.
The more survivors gen rush the more killers are forced to tunnel in response.
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@Spectralfx said:
I don't know, I feel like otz is playing some fairly decent survivors, but I mean, he's the meme lord that can make trapper work sometimes... so of course the survivors he plays are not always in their best light... as anyone losing to trapper would look you know?
in my book he's a very solid killer with a tons of good insights.
No one is saying Otz is bad.
We are saying True has a higher caliber of opponent most of the time (especially early on in his show - toward the end he knows he gets chill people.
@TenTrillion said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3372092#Comment_3372092
this is actually something interetsting, you typically see otz play more chill survivors. Tru3, on the other hand, faces some crazy stuff a lot of the time. (or maybe i just feel like it's more because he shows more crazy survivors on his channel, but then again he posts tons of videos, so..)
I wouldn't be at all surprised if the devs changed otz' profile to make him face survivors at a lower level so the "figurehead" of dbd content can make the game seem more appealing. Though, he does go vs some crazy crap himself.
-"I wouldn't be at all surprised if the devs changed otz' profile to make him face survivors at a lower level so the "figurehead" of dbd content can make the game seem more appealing."
This is one of the reasons I suspect they hide MMR. I have thought this too at times. It would be so easy to "zap" a fog whisperer's stream to make people want to play the game more.
Where's peanuts? Show us MMR so we know that you're not doing shady nonsense!
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@AMOGUS said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3371730#Comment_3371730
You're aware that the second part is actually playing those pallets correctly, right? Not just knowing where they are? A good looper is going to have a general idea where pallets are except for special, rarely used pallets. You're still going to get outplayed by a good looper regardless of WoO, sorry about that.
And then, in that case, the source of your complaints are certain maps specifically. Which means the focus of this topic should be on maps... and not blaming perks. But to stay on topic, nerfing WoO absolutely will not fix your problem, since those 25 pallets are very visible if we both have the same map in mind and you're still going to lose to good loopers on this map.
Generally, the two actual reasons for why you would want to run WoO is:
- You're new and don't know where the pallets are yet. Which is fine, WoO doesn't help you play pallets themselves and throwing down pallets instantly will throw the game unless you're in a squad or the Killer is newer than you.
- You're experienced but don't want to miss pallets. Which is also fine, since you're typically going to know where all the pallets are to begin with and you're most likely going to know where basically all of the pallets are without WoO. You can play pallets somewhat decently already and you knowing where lesser used pallets are isn't going to matter if the Killer can't outplay you at pallets.
Interesting pallet idea though.
-"You're aware that the second part is actually playing those pallets correctly, right?"
I'm extremely good at getting people to waste pallets. To this end I bring Bamboozle which usually forces the survivor to give you a hit or use a pallet immediately on the first loop. Almost everyone I play against hates the way I play because I often drive them instead of the other way around.
-"You're still going to get outplayed by a good looper regardless of WoO, sorry about that."
My favorite Killer is Nemesis. I rarely get outplayed at a pallet. But when I see someone pull some nonsense that would shut down something like 50% of the killer cast it raises a huge red flag for me about this game's balance.
-"Which means the focus of this topic should be on maps... and not blaming perks."
WoO makes existing map imbalances worse. It allows the best players in the game to chain tiles more efficiently. WoO almost exactly matched the old pick rate for Iron Will (looking at some perk use sites) and has an effectively similar function in chases.
This is the exact opposite of Bamboozle. I bring Bamboozle on most killers as insurance because sometimes you get two windows that would be a near infinite if you didn't have the perk. That's complete nonsense.
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@HoodedWildKard said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3371800#Comment_3371800
Otz is, I would imagine, as one of DBD's more prominent streamers, against some of the best Survivors in the game.
Now I haven't watched any of his content. But I'd be interested to see how many dead hards he successfully baits versus how many he swings into, and his general kill stats as killer. Then I could make a call on whether he's bad at countering DH or not as well as with killer in general.
-"Otz is, I would imagine, as one of DBD's more prominent streamers, against some of the best Survivors in the game."
Actually no. Otz plays against lot of potato players. Maybe they mess around because they know they are on his stream? /shrug.
If you hop over to Lilith's stream you usually see a lot more crazy skilled survivors. The same is true over on Truetalent's stream.
Regardless there is no counter to DH if there is a pallet nearby. You swing and hit the DH or you eat the pallet. Either way you lose as killer.
It would be one thing if DH had a 15 second count down clock where you automatically went down after a DH unless you literally stopped to mend ( this would basically make it so that running with DH would not stop the deep wound progress).
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Let's talk about what changed with this map.
- They added a main building with 3x windows that overall are way too strong
- They added multiple pallets to this map. So if the map was "questionable" before now it is definitely survivor sided.
- The map didn't get smaller. All of this might be "ok" if the map had been srhunk down to like 8000m².
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@xEmoGirlxAlexisx said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3370400#Comment_3370400
But a Meta Perk shouldnt be so strong it destroys all m1 killers
U cant Counter it on Paletts u will always eat the Palett or DH u cant bait it
DH is unhealthy and broken and Need to be fully reworked u cleary can Feel it when a Game doesnt have DH or a Game whit 2/4 Survivors who use DH its 2 different worlds because the Perk is so impactful
Und im Not going to play only Nurse or Blight just because the devs cant balance this mess of a Perk
-"But a Meta Perk shouldnt be so strong it destroys all m1 killers"
This is the truth.
@HoodedWildKard said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3371047#Comment_3371047
It only destroys M1 killers if that player can't counterplay it, that is a skill issue. Most of them have mechanics designed to shorten or bypass chases: traps, exposed etc anyway. And using it on a pallet like that requires pinpoint timing and doesn't always work, you have a slight gap between the dh animation and actually dropping the pallet. That requires a lot of skill to pull off and with the amount of antiloop killers it doesn'taffect every killer that badly. As killer you can't expect to outplay every survivor in every situation.
Admittedly it sees a lot of use because it is a good perk. But unhealthy and broken? I really can't agree with that, it's high risk high reward. I play killer and surv about the same and I get value out of it sometimes as surv and sometimes I get downed. As killer I've got used to counterplaying it very quickly. It still swing in to it sometimes but more often than not I bait it out.
If it was literally an automatic health state with no counterplay then I'd agree with you. But it has counterplay, and it's not like there aren't multiple killers who can cut the survs down to one healthstate consistently. Technically any killer can using perks. DH is fine as it. If I had to change it I'd maybe make it so the DH deep wound ticks down while sprinting still so it extends the chase but makes it hard to juice it for a full minute or more.
-"It only destroys M1 killers if that player can't counterplay it, that is a skill issue."
So when it happens to Otz who is a 9,000 hour player you're saying Otz is bad at the game? That's a great argument.
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@Yoshirama said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3371779#Comment_3371779
Play with 8 perks lmao
You know that SFW are not common as SoloQ, right? And again, if you want limit survivors like that, then let survivors chose which killer to play against
You know that you have no idea what you're talking about right?
Most of the people in my lobbies have each other on their friends list. I also stream snipe whenever I get a TTV person and quite often people do sneaky stuff like play on a different platform to make it look like they are 2x 2 man swfs but are in fact a 3 or 4 man team.
Also just so we are clear here a game either has SWF or it does not. Most games have SWF. Some people call "SWF" when there are 4 players. That is SWF but so is 2x people playing in a SWF.
To balance giving the killer 8 perk slots you just give anyone playing solo survivor 4 information perks pre-selected at the start of the game. They could take things like Kindred, Bond, Rookie Spirit but not DH as that is not an information perk. In case the game features SWF those 4 extra perks activate.
Essentially the Killer would be getting the same deal except they pick 4 perks that only activate if the game features SWF. If not then they only get 4 perks.
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@Yoshirama said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3371714#Comment_3371714
Because is a bad idea, why would you punish people to play with their friends and limit what they use?
In that case, allow survivors to chose the killer to play against
The killer is punished because you make them play vs SWF. What do they get for playing against a SWF team?
- You get more difficult/frustrating matches
- You get fewer points.
Where's the "yes I want that" aspect for the killer?
I will remind you that the devs told us that SWF groups escape up to 15% more often than solo players. That's a game breaking statistical difference.
Punishing for playing with SWF would be giving the team a 5% permanent slowdown for each linked player for heals/generators/totems/chests/doors/etc.
Limiting SWF is not punishment. it is called " fair play".SWF is not fun to play against. Fair play is the idea that using an ability is fun to use and fun to have it used on you. SWF therefore does not qualify as "fair play". Given the choice most people playing killer would only want to play against solo queue players.
The alternative would be to give the killer extra perks because you are playing in a SWF. Let me play with 8 perks if I am in a game that features SWF and I would choose to play 100% of my games against SWF teams.
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@Peanits said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3369601#Comment_3369601
It is almost entirely RNG. The shrine is and always has been randomly generated, the only exceptions are when perks are required for a current Tome challenge. In those cases, the perks are guaranteed to appear in the shrine for a week.
Outside of that, it's all down to chance. There's 102 unique Survivor perks and 90 unique Killer perks that can show up in the shrine, but only two slots for either side each week. That means any given perk only has a roughly 2% chance to appear each week. Since some have been in the game much longer and there were fewer perks back then, they've had a lot of appearances. But these days, the chances are very low in comparison.
The shrine was designed back when there were only a few chapters, not so much for hundreds of perks. If you have any suggestions to improve it, please feel free to share!
It would be very easy to fix.
- Remove the "free" perks from characters like Meg, Dwight,Jake, Nea, Bill, David, Trapper, Wraith, Billy, Huntress, Nurse. Why? Everyone already has these characters. They would be "wasting" shards if they bought these perks with shards instead of bloodpoints. There is no realistic scenario where you would have 2000 shards before you have 1m BP to spend. This is a very minor point and can be skipped. I will point out that one of the most appearing perks in the shrine is sabotage. It doesn't need to appear in the shrine for a 26th time (estimation) before Deadlock appears once.
- Instead of having every week be 100% RNG based make the shrine work on a complete rotation system. In other words let's say the shrine is : Deadlock, Call of Brine, Decisive Strike, and Reassurance. Lock those perks out from being repeated until every other perk in the shrine has repeated (since killer has 90 perks vs 102 they would be possible to repeat sooner). This would mean that since there are 102 survivor perks that can appear in the shrine it will take 51 weeks to complete a rotation. Since there are 52 weeks in a year that means all the content would have cycled if you played the game for 1 year.
- You could if you wish add "hard stops" to new DLC content. Let's say for example you add a new killer perk that everyone wants. Ok fine.... make the three new killer perks appear last. That way we had 45 other perks appear first. The New DLC got locked out for a while and now it's guaranteed to appear.
This solution gives Everyone a win.
Marketing gets a system where you have to wait a while to get the "new/good stuff"
Players get a system where they can get every perk if they are patient.
There would be no scenario like we have now where Deadlock has been out for way longer than a year and has appeared zero times in the Shrine.
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@AMOGUS said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/362546/can-we-nerf-windows-of-opportunity
Justifying perk nerfs because of pick rate is stupid, especially since this is a game where 90% of the perks are bad because this community is bad and fears new challenges or things that shake things up, so everything is either niche, has little value or gets shut down easily aside from a few perks... which is why those perks are meta.
And... so what? It tells you where the pallets are. So your problem is the maps, not the pallets themselves.
-"so what? It tells you where the pallets are. So your problem is the maps, not the pallets themselves."
Being able to see where all the pallets are increases your ability to loop efficiently. If this were not the case then no one would use Windows.
Overall I would say the mechanics of pallet stuns were a lot more fair in 2016 as they required a skill shot to time the stun correctly. If you mistimed the event then you got hit and stunned (this happened a lot back in 2016 because there was a delay before the stun AND the hitbox was massively smaller).
Pallets as a whole are fine when a map has ~8 pallets. But some maps have 11-14 and there is one with 25 pallets.
It might be interesting if we had steel and wooden pallets. Steel pallets take the current pallet duration to break and stun for longer but take longer to pull down. Wooden pallets are faster to drop but get smashed in one kick (and give stun like the killer has endurance).
Overall I would say no the pallet situation is not "ok".
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3371700#Comment_3371700
You are joking right? Most killers I see tunneling do so asap - preferably at 5 gens. And continue to do so even in 3v1. And of course slug for 4k.
Being able to defend from tunneling will always lower tunneling. Your statement makes about as much sense as killers tunneling *less* because patch 6.1 nerfed DS. I fail to see any logic in it.
The amount that killers tunnel right now is a reflection of how bad it is to play killer overall.
The maps are mostly unfair.
there are only 2/31 viable killers.
SWF is unfair and so are the hud changes.
The best killer generator defense perk got obliterated but the number one time saving survivor perk (DH) remains in a buffed state for the best players.
What about this sounds fun?
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3371655#Comment_3371655
Yes, the purpose of the shrine is to make licensed perks available to everyone, but only after so many months. If you want them on day one, you have to buy the licensed characters, or the chapter as a whole.
Survivors are just skins, unless you specifically want to play as that survivor, buying them is pointless, you buy them for their perks.
Killers while unique, are also seperate to their perks, you may only way the perks and not the killer.
So if you were given the choice, would you:
A. Buy the whole chapter, killer and survivor, for $10.
B. Buy just the killer for $5 and then buy the survivors perks for 6,000 IS.
C. Just buy the perks for 12,000 IS.
How many sales would this cost them? And how many sales would it cost the license holders? They have a deal with BHVR to sell their product.
How many months is appropriate? Most games do something like a 6 month lockout.
Consider for a moment that many of the best killer perks right now are locked on premium killers. Let's pretend eruption didnt just get obliterated.
Nemesis- Eruption
Sadako- CoB
Pinhead- Deadlock
All of these perks had very high use rates and are/were very effective in preventing generator completion. With the exception of Eruption they have never been in the shrine. See the problem?
DBD is very heavily leaning towards pay to win with licensed character perks. This is not healthy for the game.