DBDVulture
DBDVulture
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@Archael said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3397558#Comment_3397558
As much as i agree that genrush is one of the reason some killers camp and tunnel.
I cannot agree that we have to touch both those topics in the same thread.
Those are different things, both of which should be resolved from devs side, but when we talk about one thing, we should talk at one thing.
And also. Dismissing anti-camping suggestions with argument "genrush" and vice -versa is at least silly.
Just because genrush exists does not means tunneling do not exist.
And - no, resolving genrush is not the ultimate answer for tunneling and camping. Even if all perks and items for gen speed would be removed from the game, and one gen would need 300s do be done, lot of killer would still camp and tunnel.
-"As much as i agree that genrush is one of the reason some killers camp and tunnel. "
"I cannot agree that we have to touch both those topics in the same thread."
Since you agree that genrush causes tunneling; do you think gen rush is fine and Tunneling is bad?
-"Just because genrush exists does not means tunneling do not exist."
You missed the forest for the trees. We already established that Gen rushing exists and that causes killers to need to tunnel as a reaction.
If you want tunneling to stop a few things need to happen.
- Killers need some kind of base kit prevention so that they don't lose the gens as quickly as they do now. Base kit deadlock would probably work. Just change the perk by the same name to block gens for an additional 30 seconds.
- Killers need an alternative to tunneling that is more appealing. Tunneling one player out effectively gives their team a -25% debuff to everything because that potential from the team is permanently gone. If hooking a player for the first time (if no one is dead) gives -9% to everything then that is more of a penalty than Tunneling. Most survivors would want to play DBD like that because that would make generators take 122 seconds with four stacks. As a base kit change this would very likely cause Dying Light to become meta. Hooking each survivor once would give you 12+36 = 48% penalty to all actions (how do 133 second generators sound).
People love to say : just punish the killer. Well that's fine and all but the Role of killer needs to be fun AND have a chance where you feel like you can win. If those conditions are not true then the killer might stop playing DBD or switch roles.
It actually hurts the game a lot more if multiple killer mains stop playing killer and instead play survivor (tipping the scale even more).
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@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3397337#Comment_3397337
What is your idea about tunneling gens?
Is it just counter false argument so survivors have something to tunnel too, or what?
You are scared that all survivors are workign on one gen? I wish they would do it...
Tunneling is a made up concept.
Survivors rush gens and as a response killers have to rush survivors out of the game.
You get nothing for getting all gens to 33% progress. You get nothing for hooking three people one time each.
See the problem?
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3397290#Comment_3397290
Hallo. It was just mentioned. MDR+amulet spirit is totally different thing then yellow duration and yellow speed spirit. 50% chase reduction is absolutely fine estimate. Same thing for tombstone piece. Or C33+alch ring. Or engeneering's fang + original pain. Or pinky finger + extra bottles. Or bestmarks + award chilly for camping bubba. Or Black incense + iridescent seal.
Do I need to even continue? There are so many OP things on killer's side - that it's absolutely OK to also have OP things on survivor's side. And if we actually want balanced game instead, then remove all the OP stuff from both sides
Let's just stop for a minute and talk about your list.
MM has two nasty addons that make the game difficult for survivors. Overall though the killer is weak and is 100% turned off when someone drops a pallet.
Blight with garbage addons can offer much more pressure than MM.
SWF in general is a lot of pressure for most of the bad killers.
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@bigboss192x said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3396964#Comment_3396964
I've not disputed tunneling. He does not just sit there and camp people tho. You're moving the goalpost. Good day
I saw him guard one player to death on Lerrys and you're saying it did not happen. it did.
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@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3396965#Comment_3396965
People are going to use pop instead of Pain Resonance. It's not dead perk, pain resonance was simply better.
Eruption is still good if you combine it with Nowhere to hide for extra value.
Eruption is dead and lost 2/3 of its effect.
PR is dead and only working once per player per game is not worth it.
Pop is dead. As I've said before it used to give me 2-3 minutes of extra time and now it's more like 40 seconds per game.
The PTB notes want to nerf CoB by 75% and OC by 70%.
Is there any survivor perk you would continue to use if it lost 70% of its effect?
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@Nazzzak said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/SRGET25FVSID/187078a94f840-screenshoturl.jpg
This one was on the Thompson House CW map. I think it's just RNG.
If you look closely you can find many maps that have a "4 gen" pocket.
One of the swamp maps usually has a "6 gen" pocket.
I know you probably won't agree but RNG like this makes the game "ok" for some of the older terrible killers.
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@Boons123 said:
The tunneling problem cannot be addressed with Perks
So this is my idea
Once the survivors tunnel by the killer and hit by any means The following effects will occur:
-Gets the effects of Incapacitated (can't do anything), blindness, and Hindered (20%) for 60 seconds
-One random generator is fixed automatically
Regardless of whether the survivors exploited this or not What do you think of this idea?
If you have anything to prevent survivors from using this to their advantage, write it down
-And thanks
You forgot to account for Survivors tunneling Generators.
What punishment do they get for tunneling gens?
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@Lanz said:
I just wanna to see who I'm queuing against as a Killer AND solo survivor to dodge toxic parties.
To a degree you can do this already.
Sometimes I dodge until I find a lobby where I know people are solo. Games are a lot more fair when there is at most a single SWF of 2x players.
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@MamaSquawks said:
There was never a problem with the perk. The scourge hooks are randomly assigned, and the use was already inconsistent to begin with. Now, with the added conditions (only regresses when a new survivor is hooked and 4 tokens) ON TOP of the already RNG limit, this perk has become more situational than ever. The 25% compensation does not make up for the limited use, especially since 25% regression cannot be guaranteed.
The only issue with the perk is that it allowed tunneling killers to put the same survivor on a scourge hook, intentionally abusing the regression and wiping players out of the game. This can be easily resolved by making the perk only activate when a different survivor is hooked on a scourge hook. In other words, if the same survivor is hooked on a scourge hook in a row, there will be no regression. Effectively, this allows Pain Resonance to be activated more, while also preventing tunneling.
To compensate for the increased opportunities for activation, the regression rate should be reverted to 15%.
As of now, the perk has a lot of usage, and that is because it is effective for killers to maintain pressure; however, it is not overpowered. Generator regression is being hit hard while generator rush is staying (Prove Thyself and Brand New Parts). Killers should not be relying on increasingly less effective slowdown perks to combat perks and add-ons that were equally as effective as Pain Resonance.
-"There was never a problem with the perk. The scourge hooks are randomly assigned, and the use was already inconsistent to begin with."
That's exactly what everyone agreed - except for the developers who feel it is necessary to adjust the game so survivors "hate it less".
It would be fine if gen rush perks were getting absolutely destroyed but oddly enough they are untouched.
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@TheVolgun said:
I was playing with a mate recently and something dawned on me.
Why is it that Killer like Knight and Skull Merchant have some form of Inability to use their power whilst near hooked survivors.
Obviously Knight has the penalty if you touch a hook when a guard is near by the guard is automatically de summoned.
And Skull Merchant just simply isn't allowed to place drones near hooked survivors.
And yet Bubba (Using him simply cause he was what sparked the thought) can plant himself in front of the hook and guarantee a kill with 100% Success rate.
Don't get me wrong this isn't a rage post or anything I just don't understand the disconnect and double standard that behaviour have created.
You want to know the real insult to injury?
Leatherface has zero collision with hook poles. Just imagine if that were not the case : you could play ring around the rosie and his power would be almost useless if you looped around hooks.
It would make the killer a lot less stupid to play against while at the same time make every chase just a little more difficult because free standing hooks would prevent you from being able to use your chainsaw.
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@Princesse_nico said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3397291#Comment_3397291
No i actually prefer just have fun, would love a game like a mix of hunger games/saw/escape room. Were surviving is fun! Not bullying a killer, not looping up a killer.
Or at least more interactive killer like pig
Here's the problem :
When survivors are having easy chases and all 4 players get out... how much fun do you think the Pig you played against was having?
Oh right they had a terrible time that match.
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@DjEnderFox107 said:
With DBD constantly adding a new killer and multiple survivors each chapter adding 3 new perks there will soon become an abundance amount of perks to choose from.
Adding A Fifth Perk slot would also add more combinations and builds as there are plenty of times that an extra perk slot would be need to make to a build perfect.
With how much perks are getting nerfed ,especially on killers, adding an additional slot would make that perk without it being completely useless and an waste of an slot.
With how the game is currently it’s not a necessary change but I would hope for the future or to make games a little more balanced more perk slots should be added Even possibly making Killers having Six perks slot and Survivors only having Five slots
Survivors already got a "5th" perk slot with base kit BT. Literally nobody is using BT anymore because the free effect is so good.
If you want to do anything give killer a 5-6th perk slot. That will give the killer 6 perks to go against 20 survivor perks.
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@DjEnderFox107 said:
This is just a random thought I had and wanted to know how the community might feel about this topic negative or positive!
Giving survivors a third health while yes it would make it more difficult and take longer for killers to down survivors, you add adjustment such as giving less pallets or increasing the time it takes to repair a generator to make it more balanced.
The way a third health state would be implemented would be making a healthy state, a deep wound state, and then an injured state.
Healing in the injured state would put you back into the healthy state so you don’t have to heal twice, but with a third health state healing might be need to be nerfed, this depends.
The deep wound state would be the same as it is now but killers could have new add ons, or even powers to counter deep wound.
For Example with Legion you can add his older self being able to bring the state down but only then to put them in the injury state where his power won’t be in affect in downing a survivor.
Trapper wouldn’t be able to down survivors completely but put them in the injured state so they have another chance to run away
I won’t go over all the killers but just some of the ideas.
All comments are appreciated!
You already have a third health state: it's called dead hard.
And there's a really good reason why it is getting nerfed - because it's op as hell.
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@VaporLion said:
I think they shouldnt see how far you are away from dying on the ground, because it only makes them play in unfun ways.
Instead this could be applied to the Perk Knock Out. So if they choose to go for the Slugging playstyle they have to play a perk to do so.
I've many times experienced Killers that are toxic and just let you bleed out until last second and then pick you up to bring you to the hook.
Here's a crazy idea :
Nobody should be able to see any hooked progress or count /healing progress/dying progress - ever.
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@Princesse_nico said:
I love survival games and movie! And this killer is so fun to play against. Everytime i have a trap on my head i hope it kills me. Its so fun to be a little nervous and search for the key. Sadly the timer is so big it almost never hapens.
I wish there were more fun killer like that, that there power is fun to play against. The onryo could have been great, but sadly we dont even need to touch the TVS
I hope theres like a saw chapter 2. Maybe something with all gens locked and we have to do traps all around the trial to find keys to unlock gens. Saw is the best kind of chapter!
I wish the game was more fun, less competitive.
-"I wish the game was more fun, less competitive."
Survivors love to play games against killers that are easy to lose in chase and have no real ability to apply pressure.
It sounds to me like you want a mode where 5 friends queue up for a lobby and one of you is killer and it rotates every time who plays killer. All the while everyone gets points like it was a "normal" match.
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@randonly said:
I don't think the problem is in the perks, but in the BNP itself. Hyperfocus, in addition to requiring skill, still shares the same base bonus between repair and heal speed, and a nerf on the perk, would harm both, the most I see is removing the possibility of synergy in builds (removing bnp you already cut synergy with hyperfocus and removing the Stakeout bonus itself), and prove thyself wouldn't be so overused if most of the gens in the match were Solo gens, at least 5 out of 7, forcing swfs to make at least 3 solo generators and time-sharing the matches between SWFs and SoloQ
There is no way you can justify that BNP+Hyperfocus is good for the game.
Having a way to make a 90 second generator take 40-45 seconds breaks the game balance.
The only way this would be "ok" is if killer could make you die in half as much time on the hook with the right perk+addon. Just imagine how mad survivors would be if that was part of the game.
If killer doesn't get to kill you 50% faster then you don't get to do generators 50% faster.
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@bunnyfengenthusiast said:
Especially now that gen reg is getting gutted, BNPs still stand as one of the dumbest, strongest, least earned item in the game that cuts down the time spent in a trial dramatically. It seems like it's impossible for me to play more than two games in a row without seeing 2+ BNPs. Something needs to be done about this addon. Toolboxes in general are broken, and survivors know it, but abusing BNPs+Stakeout+Hyperfocus needs to be made a thing of the past, and quick.
I'll do you one better:
Make toolboxes Sabo only and retire BNPs.
If all the gen regression is getting a 70% nerf then all the gen rushing stuff needs to poof.
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I've been playing for 6 years but I can't imagine someone trying to start the grind.
As for match making balance .... it doesn't really exist because MMR is a joke.
-"There are killers that a part of their kit should be ignored for optimal play."
It's not that you should ignore using the masks with Pig; you should ignore that Pig exists and not play that killer. For Optimal play you should ignore all but 2 killers : Nurse/Blight. If you want to expand that then there are maybe 10 total viable killers and everything is trash.
Have you tried DBD mobile? It just lets you buy exactly the addons you want and the base game of DBD doesn't have that - lol.
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@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3396684#Comment_3396684
If we nerfed every exhaustion perk except smash hit by 75% it would very quickly make smash hit the best exhaustion perk. That's not really saying much.
Deadlock was never bad perk. It simply doesn't work well with kick gen meta, which was dominant play style last few months.
You still have some valid kick gen perks and deadlock would screw it. Deadlock base kit is bad idea for both sides.
There will be no good kick perks after this patch. Overcharge is getting a 70% nerf and CoB is getting a 75% nerf. Nobody will ever use either of those perks again.
Nobody is using Pop so what kick perk do you think people are using?
The only perk people are using is a detection perk not one that focuses on gen regression.
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@bigboss192x said:
Oh no of course let's listen to your example of a game he might have tunneled where you think he was doctor. And it might have been because the same fans that's accused him of being racist he opted for another challenge which is **the norm of his content** and yet not only is there no video it doesn't correlate with the 100s of other videos available on his twitch or YT. No that's checks out for sure
There is no question in my mind that one survivor died in the basement from the first hook on Lerrys. I am not 100% certain he played doctor
Otz very commonly says : I have to tunnel out player blah blah to win.
When he is on a streak he does not play nice.
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@ad19970 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3394221#Comment_3394221
Just because you call survivors doing gens tunneling doesn't mean it's the same thing. It isn't.
Obviously camping and tunneling nerfs can only come with buffs to killers as well, ideally a rebalance of a lot of maps, or some early game slowdown. Survivors doing gens is still not the same as killers focusing one survivor out of the game from a design perspective.
-"Just because you call survivors doing gens tunneling doesn't mean it's the same thing. It isn't."
How is it different? Prove to me it is not. The killer targets one player and eliminates it. The survivors pick one generator and eliminate it.
-" Survivors doing gens is still not the same as killers focusing one survivor out of the game from a design perspective."
Where you are wrong is that removing a critical generator that allows a killer to have a 3 gen seutp on most maps is roughtly equivalent to the killer having removed one player. Most killers are weak in chase and do not have travel powers. The ones that have both break the game. Many of the maps we have gotten recently should probably only be maps Nurse/Blight and play (such as Garden of Joy).
Imagine for example any map that has one generator in the middle surrounded by many others. What if that central generator was visually different and took twice as long to repair? Survivors would hate it but that would be better balanced (note that I am not suggesting this as a fix but it illustrates the point).
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@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3396564#Comment_3396564
I am killer main and what you want is broken. Like a lot.
For this you would need to rebalance everything. Good luck with that.
For any basekit changes like that, you would have to first nerf the hell out of Blight, Nurse, Spirit, Wesker, Artist, Oni, Huntress and probably some others. Basically all good killers right now, because they would become super broken.
Give Killer Deadlock Base kit.
Deadlock is currently one of best slowdown perks in the game and you want it basekit? That's a no from me. It would actually screw lot of killer builds. Any gen kicking build don't want to see Deadlock.
If you chose corrupt interventation, so chase starts faster (make it go away when chase starts instead of dying). I could kinda get behind it, but Deadlock is too much.
Give them a base kit reward for hooking each unique survivor once before anyone dies.
I am all for this. Something like Grim Embrace effect would work. I would increase hook stage timer to deal with camping and kinda balance it.
-"I am all for this. Something like Grim Embrace effect would work."
Here's the paradox : Anything less than 9% penalty to all survivor actions for each first hook means it is better to just tunnel one player out.
You can't give that much of a buff because survivors would whine. Since they won't give that much buff I will always tunnel one player out asap.
"Deadlock is currently one of best slowdown perks in the game and you want it basekit?"
If we nerfed every exhaustion perk except smash hit by 75% it would very quickly make smash hit the best exhaustion perk. That's not really saying much.
Deadlock base kit would be roughly equal to survivors getting free base kit BT. The survivors get +1 perk and the killer got nothing of equal value in trade. Deadlock would give killers gen tunnel protection - which is what survivors got for free.
-"For this you would need to rebalance everything. Good luck with that."
Generally speaking there are about 10 "ok" killers" and 2 "working": killers. The list should be more like 2 great killers and 20 "good" killers.
Or we could just have tiers of gameplay. If you are playing without perks , not in a SWF then you can see Pig. That's an oversimplification but you get the idea.
There is no world where player 1 picks Pig and player 2 picks Nurse and that choice is equal.
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Is it too late to ask : why are we nerfing all the gen regression perks but not nerfing all the gen rushing perks AND the gen rushing item (toolbox)?
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3396552#Comment_3396552
Ah. So I see. Midwitch is not just fair. It's survivor sided. Got it. No point in continuing any more discussions about map balance with you.
You're being unreasonable as those are not the words I said. You are drawing conclusions I did not make.
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@bigboss192x said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3396039#Comment_3396039
What a crazy coincidence. I'm an avid Otz watcher and saw no such situation.
He didnt put the game on YT so if you weren't tuned in on that exact day and missed 20 minutes of the stream then you would not have seen it.
Otz was accused of tunneling/supporting tunneling by his chat and did something of a "penance" where he limited himself to not tunneling for a recent video. Are you going to tell me that didn't happen too?
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@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3395570#Comment_3395570
It's not like camping should be banned or anything.
Face camping from 5-gens is mostly gone. It's so long since I have seen it.
-Camping at end of the game to secure kill? Why not... Not much else to do
When I see survivors focusing gen instead of going for save, I will go there and wait to get 1 for 1 or extra hook stage. It's basically punishing their choice. Which I think is correct thing to do...
Camping from 5 gens was boring and noone likes it, which is understandable. But it's not like camping doesn't have a place in dbd imo.
Same for slugging and tunneling. They are great tools which should be used in correct situation. It's become an issue when you get it to next level tho (tunnel / camp from 5 gens, or slugging only builds).
What I have been asking for is for the game to be slowed down. Slow down survivor gen rushing (maybe those perks need a 70% nerf since cob/overcharge are getting that). Slow down the game so the killer can go for lots of chases instead of needing to tunnel the first person out every time.
Give Killer Deadlock Base kit. Give them a base kit reward for hooking each unique survivor once before anyone dies. Make that reward "better" than tunneling out one player. We will see longer games with 4 people alive for longer - with harder to complete generators.
Give the killer a reward better than tunneling and they won't. If necessary make it so you get one reward or the other; so if you start by anti tunneling and then tunnel the reward for not tunneling goes away.
The problem is that many survivors seem to want quick easy games where they don't really feel much pressure and have easy escapes. How fun is that to play against as killer?
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@bigboss192x said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3396041#Comment_3396041
Its definitely not that horrible and easy as you're making it out to be. If a camper gets more than that 1 guy your team sucks. Period
I play against very good players often. It's pretty common for me to chase someone and down them and then have the opportunity to hook them where two people were working a generator (I would say this happens in about 1 in 5-6 games right now).
When that generator is 80-90% completed the survivors feel the need to finish it. At the start of the game when this happens it usually means I get at least +1 kill. When I can stand so close to the hook that nobody can really touch the generator or the survivor it means the trade will be very messy. Often I can force the second hook state so that the unhooked survivor can be tunneled and killed immediately. At the very least someone else will go on the hook and the generator continues to degrade.
This isn't "nice" but it is efficient play. Just like it's efficient for two survivors with Prove to blast an important generator early on. DBD has turned into an "arms race" of sorts where the main consideration is how much time is wasted/saved.
I really don't want to play this way but survivors who are hyper efficient have taught me that I should - so I do. When you can get someone to stage two very early in the match then you tunnel them and it's a 3v1 with 4 generators left. That's a really hard game to win.
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@Gandor said:
WY is about just as fair map, as current Garden of Joy.
Who could possibly think that tiny map with no strong structures, open dead zones and at best a few gyms is fair map? Well. Obviously someone that only wants his side to win all the time.
I absolutely see it. Next time we will hear that Midwitch is actually a fair map....
There was a time mid was a favorite pick of survivors - you seem to forget that.
Mid is a hard map for solo players to win but I regularly win in a SWF as long as we're not playing vs Nurse/Blight or a killer who picked that map via an offering and has the game weighted in their favor.
GoJ has a broken main building that reeks of 2016-2018 building design. Does anyone want to make the argument that the old Iron Works of Misery window was fair? It wasn't. In what way is it ok to have three nearly similar power windows on the same building that can be chained together?
@randonly said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3396045#Comment_3396045
WY have a lot of tiles outdated, I'm not talking about the classic 4 walls that now can't even be repeated in atuohaven maps I'm talking about the structure of labs/tiles in which the pallet is easily circumvented by either side (don't have long wall in one side, it's open, i think its called lame walls), which no longer makes sense with anti loop and fast blood lust killers, plus of course high tier killers, specially in a tiny open map
-"WY have a lot of tiles outdated"
DBD has a lot of outdated killers. Most of them in fact do not have viable anti loop and are also defeated by shift+W.
I would love for DBD to have the rule : only killers with a movement power can play maps larger than 9000m². You could play all the "bad" killers and actually have fun as long as the map isn't too RNG weighted. Clown map and Coal Tower are two examples of maps where sometimes there is just too much good stuff for survivors to use all in one spot.
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@randonly said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3395978#Comment_3395978
sure, unsafe pallets can be used to balance large maps too if you don't want to do a pretty good and safe tiles distribution correctly with pallets, which would solve the problem of gideon (as a kind of compensation for having more usable tiles)
But Wreckers Yard is far from being the definition of a perfect map, it's exactly the opposite of gideon, you have a tiny map in which the central build will also always be the basement and the few pallets it has, most are unsafe, including the horrible tiles (that do not compensate), devs even remade some of the bad ones that were on autohaven maps, like the u tiles. I would only find this map balanced, as I said, if there were more pallets at least usable tiles, or open the shack windows again, since it functions as an main building too, allowing a loop that can be both time consuming and super risky with the basement there, accessible to killer (more or less the same as with hadonfield main building)
Well, at least the clone of the Wreckers yard cornfield version has the tractors and the tiles connected in small area, and it still has the plantation that doesn't allow a good view of the map
-"and the few pallets it has, most are unsafe"
Do you know what an unsafe pallet is? It has a long side and a short side. The "car" loop going anticlockwise around the main building of Badham is an unsafe loop. It also happens to be a fair one.
Most of the loops on WY are safe loops with Jungle Gyms. You can sand over a pallet and the killer can't hit you.
If you want to make the arguement that Nurse and Blight should never play this map then I might agree. But this map is actually pretty fair to a killer like : Pig and all the old M1 killer cast.
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@bigboss192x said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3395073#Comment_3395073
There is no "gen rush climate". There's "survivors doing the objective. As a killer main I hate when people think like you and make all of us seem like complete crybabies
Then tunneling doesn't exist and everything is fine with DBD.
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@bigboss192x said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3395570#Comment_3395570
Show me one time he camped someone and not in the case he knows someone is right there and he's pursuing them. I'll wait.
About a month or two ago he was playing on Lerrys and lost 3 gens before getting a hit.
I dont remember who he was playing; it might have been Doctor.
He camped the first person he hooked to death in the basement. As for finding the video - I dont think he posted that game on YT.
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@randonly said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3395883#Comment_3395883
well, that's your idea of what you think is balanced. Pretty sure small maps with 8 pallets like Wreckers' Yard are not balanced at all and very killer sided (which will change a bit with the addition of more pallets in 6.7), and still have the accessible basement in the middle of the map practically serving the killer any time.
Small maps should have exactly more connected tiles and pallets to suppress the killer's ability to easily supervise generators, even more so when dealing with high mobility killers, while large maps should have fewer pallets and fewer connected tiles (and you can merge windows with pallets to try to balance the small amount of each other, exactly where gideon went wrong).
This story that all maps must be small or open completely takes away the game design creativity from the game, forgetting that there are killers who manage to benefit from specific scenarios (open, indoor, medium or small)
And I also totally disagree about generators.
If you do the math and somehow manage to standardize the average gen repair time between Soloq and SWF, then you have more opportunity for chasers to occur naturally over a longer period of time.
Keeping that in mind, since the game mixes SoloQ and SWF, the best fix I see is to make 5 of the current 7 gens >SOLO GENS<< (50%+, precisely 70%), which would force 3 SOLO gens to be repaired by survivors, and separates the gens correctly on the map more (specially the solo ones from each other), in addition to rework bnps (or remove)
So you create more space for the killer to invest in what is the intended game-design, the >>chases<< that will be much more worthwhile from the middle to the end of the game, even more so because the initial focus of the survivors will be to try to repair soon these 3 gens, which will take some time, and if they are left for the end, it will be easier for the killer to capitalize on the flaw
-"Pretty sure small maps with 8 pallets like Wreckers' Yard are not balanced at all and very killer sided"
Wreckers Yard is pretty much the definition of a fair map.
You have plenty of space to run loops.
You have the Shack as the "main building" which has always been a strong tile.
You have plenty of vaults located around the map to delay the use of pallets.
Almost every pallet in the map causes the event: "break this or the chase is over."
Most people don't want "fair" they want it to favor their side. Hawkins was an incredibly fair map overall but most people won't be able to tell you why : it had many pallets that gave the killer the chance for a mindgame.
The problem with a map like "the game" is that it has 25 pallets that usually end the chase if the killer doesn't break the pallet.
Otz did a challenge where he was not allowed to break any pallets on that map. But what if he tried the same challenge and people realized mid game he wasn't allowed to break any pallets? The path to the basement would become a "free" zone where the killer could not go.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3395879#Comment_3395879
I assure you I'm not being disingenuous or intentionally oblivious here, but I genuinely have no idea what you mean by "efficient" play. The only definitions I can think of have very little to do with perks at all, so you're gonna have to define that one for me, unfortunately.
As for your example, I don't need to be the world's best Doctor main that competes with Blight mains, I just have to be good enough at my killers to maintain an average winrate. That's literally the only bar that exists for whether something is viable without any other contexts in mind.
Side note, Buckle Up doesn't do that anymore, Buckle Up gives Haste + Endurance on pickup.
Perhaps I wasn't clear with Buckle Up. I know it got changed but what I should have emphasized is that the perk got reworked because the main selling point of that perk is now base kit survivor information. That's kinda messed up when you think about it in terms of "information warfare".
I think we both know what efficient play means without defining the term explicitly. We might not even agree what that means exactly but when you have people that go for try hard wins every round you can look at their loadouts. You know what is try hard and what is not.
As an example : Dead Hard, Adrenaline, Hope, Resilience + green medkit = tryhard.
The joke is that there is no world's best doctor. Nobody cares because it is a "washed out" statistic overwritten by a mediocre Blight. In a way it would be like asking : what individual makes the most money shining other individuals shoes?
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You're talking about Rancid Abattoir. First let me say : maps where multiple three gens are possible are potentially fair maps.
Maps with only one viable 3 gen location are not fair maps. Let's talk about Dead Dog saloon. That's a fair map right? No it isn't. Why not? Because everybody knows there is always a three gen on one side and as soon as the killer loses that they are going to lose the game. Azarov's is another clearly broken map because you lose the second the three gen is broken on both sides of the map. In one sense nothing really changed when they redesigned the map.
What makes a map fair?
- They need to be small - around 9000m²
- They need to not have tons of interlinked tiles (this is what disqualifies Coal Tower from being fair)
- They need to have a fair number of pallets (which disqualifies "the game"). As a point of reference Abattoir has about 9 pallets overall. That's a very fair number considering every one is basically : break this or the chase is over.
- The main building needs to not be completely busted (Garden of Joy and Badham are perfect examples of what is broken)
- There needs to be multiple generators that are "close enough" where the killer can legitimately patrol them. Most of the maps fail in this aspect but it is also a direct result of map size.
Could you imagine for example a map that was 11,000m² but all the generators were in a small concentrated area? The killer would never leave the "gen zone". That's a perfect example of what would be broken in favor of the killer. RPD on the other hand is a pretty good example of what is broken favoring the survivors.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3395858#Comment_3395858
On Blight? No, I'm pretty sure Blight's Rushes count as Special Attacks, right?
Something doesn't have to compete with the absolute best of the best options to be considered good, worthwhile, or viable, anyway. Most people aren't playing comp-level Blight with the best possible loadout, they're just playing the killers they enjoy at a more standard pace of play, and for that Gearhead is going to be a nice option. Will they pick it? No, probably not, people get comfortable with what they know and even players who aren't trying their absolute hardest tend to gravitate towards whatever's obviously strongest and requires the least thought/effort to use, but that doesn't mean it isn't good.
To your last point - obviously you don't need most information tools, that doesn't mean they aren't useful, or otherwise nice to have.
-"Something doesn't have to compete with the absolute best of the best options to be considered good, worthwhile, or viable, anyway."
This idea is just not true if we're being honest when you are considering efficient play. You're welcome to prove me wrong and become the world's best Doctor Mains that competes with "mediocre" Blight players.
-"To your last point - obviously you don't need most information tools, that doesn't mean they aren't useful, or otherwise nice to have."
This I will agree with. I've been saying for a long time killer deserves more perk slots because that's the advantage SWF has. The hud update gave survivors a ton of information that made many older perks pointless.
What's the point of Buckle Up when you can clearly see how much recovery a survivor has left before they hit 99%?
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3395844#Comment_3395844
Sure, that's a possibility. But if they do hit a good skillcheck, that's more impactful and up to date information than seeing the generator's aura change with Surveillance, and since skillchecks aren't that uncommon and even really strong survivors still hit goods about as frequently as greats, that makes the perk pretty solid.
This isn't a new effect we have to theorycraft about, CoB has done this since release and it's been pretty useful information the whole time. People just didn't notice or care because the regression was why they were running it, so they wanted people not to touch the generator to begin with.
As for Gearhead, I have no idea what you're basing that on or why it'd be relevant. Efficient killer play does in fact involve being aware of where survivors are and using information to track them down, and efficient killer play for a lot of killers on the roster absolutely involves getting basic attacks, so there's no reason you couldn't run Gearhead at higher than "mid range MMR", however you'd calculate or define that.
-"Efficient killer play does in fact involve being aware of where survivors are and using information to track them down"
So this is going to be better than BBQ+Lethal on Blight? There's no combination you would use Gearhead instead. Also that being plenty of info you would not likely need another info perk.
Some perks are a 8-10 out out potential usefulness and other perks are a 4-6 by comparison. Gearhead's potential is more in the 4-6 range when you think about what it can do overall.
Also just as a generalization- Killers have been finding survivors on or around generators since 2016 with great ease. It's one of the game sense skills that takes a long time to develop. It's one of the things that separates me from a friend of mine who only dabbles in playing killer. He might know how to run loops but he doesn't know how to find people without aura highlights. He misses the nuance of birds and other signs that someone was or is here.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3395827#Comment_3395827
I disagree, I think there are benefits to running Call of Brine over Surveillance. It gives you more up-to-date information than Surveillance does, at the cost of being on a timer, which I think is a fair trade that puts the two in basically the same position.
I know I for one am going to be using Call of Brine on stealth killers who can approach the generator without being seen. Personally, the loud noise notifications are an upside to me as well, since it means I'm less likely to miss the information the way I might if I'm not actively looking at the generator in question for Surveillance.
Gearhead is similar, which honestly looks like it's going to be pretty nice with this change, I don't think that's stupid at all. Get a hit, get up to date information on which generators are being worked on for thirty seconds, that's pretty nice.
-"It gives you more up-to-date information than Surveillance does, at the cost of being on a timer, which I think is a fair trade that puts the two in basically the same position."
What if the survivor doesn't get a skillcheck for 20-30 seconds?
What if the survivor only makes great skillchecks?
I can remember back in the days of old ruin where somtimes I would only get 1-2 skillchecks while finishing a generator.
-"Gearhead is similar, which honestly looks like it's going to be pretty nice with this change, I don't think that's stupid at all."
Gearhead is a perk that will work "fine" in Mid range MMR where nobody will care that it is used anyway. For anyone who wants to play killer efficiently it will not be "worth a slot."
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3395584#Comment_3395584
Which perk do you mean? I can think of two that give similar info to CoB, Surveillance and Gearhead, and I wouldn't say either of them are strictly better than the other two.
It seems a lot more like personal preference, there.
If you're looking at what the perks do and only looking at the information they give for generators then there is one very clear winner (it's not gearhead by the way - that's a very stupid rework of that skill). The only time you might want to use nerfed CoB over Surveillance is when playing Nemesis for the"EXPLOSION NOISES" (thanks Mr. Torgue).
But it's a moot point because nobody cares about Surveillance without considering gen regression. This patch is going to make is so that you play killer and ignore the generators completely.
Kicking becomes worthless. Every gen regression perk becomes worthless.
Killer will immediately move to "chase" saving perks and" End game" perks. And then the devs will be like hey why is nobody using these perks we nerfed by 75%?
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@LollyGurl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3395162#Comment_3395162
CoB is still a viable information perk, better than something like Surveillance for most builds and it still has some regression value, meanwhile Overcome isn’t a great perk to begin with, being the only Exhaustion perk restricted to when survivors are healthy IIRC.
And I’m sure when this latest nerf to Dead Hard goes live and things like Sprint Burst and Lithe raise in popularity that they’ll see a nerf also, just be patient.
CoB is not a viable information perk. If you just wanted information there's already a park that does the same thing better.
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@bigboss192x said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3395073#Comment_3395073
The only times he "camps" is when there's someone actively going for rescue. Tunneling is necessary but not as impossible to counter as newbies always scream.
That's simply not true. When he is really trying hard sometimes he will "need" to secure a second stage on a survivor.
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@Emoba said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3395065#Comment_3395065
There is no way they take the shrine in account at all for balancing the game my dude, lol. I know BHVR can be a weird company sometimes but still.
It does in a way you don't think about. Say 40% of players dont own deadlock. That's going to influence how often a perk gets picked.
Perk nerf rate for killers is heavily influenced by how often something gets used (more so than for survivors).
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/371451/just-to-be-clear-on-cob-overcharge
Healing/injuries are a basekit mechanic, killer perk's equivalent is survivor's perks. CoH and DH are butchered (rightfully so), as CoB and OC are heavily nerfed. I wouldn't even say the killer perks are butchered, because the unique facets of them still stand (Intel for CoB, Skillcheck for OC, albeit at 14% instead of 15%), unlike CoH which lost self-healing, and DH which has a hard cap of 2 uses per match (unless I misunderstood the proposed change).
Almost every gen regression perk is on the chopping block.
SB , Lithe and Overcome didnt get a 75% reduction in effectiveness like CoB did. That's madness.
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@SkeletalElite said:
Also before someone comments it because I already see it pain res's 25% regression is not "just a weaker version of old pop"
Old pop was 25% of 80
pain res will be 25% of 90 without you needing to spend time kicking the gen
Let's talk about old Pop.
On average I got somewhere between 6-9 pops per game. Thats 120-180 seconds of extra objective time for survivors.
You know how that worked out in game? Quite often I would hook someone and rush to an important generator that someone was working. I usually wouldn't even get to hit them - I just kicked the gen and left. Then I hooked the next person near that generator if possible and kicked that generator.
This would create pressure. It would make sure that the gen didn't get worked on. And then I would down the hooked player again or someone else - and pop the same generator again unless something else needed kicking.
I played a game a few days ago with Overcharge and PR. By itself OC does nothing unless nobody can come interrupt it. But if left alone it will absolutely smash a generator in about 40 seconds. And when combined with the current PR it will send gens to nothing in that time.
Both of those perks are about to do nothing.
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@SkeletalElite said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3394338#Comment_3394338
The new pain res is not awful by any means 100% regression across all 4 uses of the perk would only be exceeded by 7 pain res hooks before the change. Strength wise, I think It's probably about the same because that strength is more front loaded to the early game.
Unless you are hyper tunneling, your first 2 hooks will be pain res hooks and that's 50% regression and early game is when you are weakest as killer and slowdown is relatively more valuable. That's 5% more regression than you're getting at 3 hooks with the old pain res.
Let's talk about how much regression you could have right now in a "real game". What happens if I get 8 hooks at 15%?
That's 120% regression. This is a nerf. You can't call it anything but a nerf if you want to be taken seriously. The RNG factor was not removed; all hooks are not scourge hooks so players can break the hook, block the hook or they can simply be too far to be used.
-"Unless you are hyper tunneling, your first 2 hooks will be pain res hooks and that's 50% regression"
You obviously don't use PR very much in real games. I had a 12 hook game recently with MM and guess how many times I got to use PR? It was about 4 uses because people had toolboxes and the RNG was heavily weight to one side over the other. Normally they would have tried blocking the hook - but that is not a thing vs infinite T3 MM.
@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3395077#Comment_3395077
Current pain res works perfect well with tunneling, and that is a huge advantage. Purposely trying to spread hooks is often a poor game decision.
And because it's tied to scourge hooks, it's not even necessarily an anti-tunneling perk. If I'm not in range of a scourge hook, and I hook a survivor on a regular hook, then it's totally fine if I tunnel that survivor, because I still haven't hooked them on a scourge hook yet. In order for this to actually be an anti-tunneling perk, the scourge hook requirement need to get dropped.
-"Current pain res works perfect well with tunneling, and that is a huge advantage. Purposely trying to spread hooks is often a poor game decision."
And that's what the survivors want - they want less regression overall and less pressure. Having one player on death hook creates pressure.
The decision to nerf PR is one to make survivors "feel good" but in so doing nobody is going to keep using the perk.
If they wanted PR to be viable then PR would make every hook White. They didn't do that so it maintains a RNG element so you will never have the guarantee of getting 25% for someone's first hook.
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@Rogue11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3395015#Comment_3395015
The difference is "tunneling" a gen 2 mins into the match A: doesn't ruin the experience of one player and B: doesn't make the match exponential easier for one side, to the point it's almost a foregone conclusion if the 2 sides are of equal skill level.
Sorry but that's not true if they tunnel gens that break my 3 gen.
Many of the maps in DBD are 3 gen or gtfo. If you lose the 3 gen and someone isn't dead (and you dont have more pressure) - the game is over.
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@bigboss192x said:
Camping hasn't been effective for nearly 2 years my dude. Just say you're bad and save everyone time.
Camping is necessary as killer. Watch Otzdarva and you will hear things like :
" I need to tunnel this Meg if I want to win."
"I will camp this Dwight to force a hook state"
Overall Otz wants to play nice- but he also wants to win. So when you see him use a tactic in a game where he needs to win then he camps/slugs and tunnels.
That is the truth.
Camping someone to force a hook state is very necessary in the current gen rush climate.
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@Emoba said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3394141#Comment_3394141
Is this a joke or...?
Check for yourself.
Deadlock has never been in the shrine according to the DBD wiki.
The devs say: random is fine.
Random is not fine. It has prevented Deadlock from ever appearing in the shrine. This in turn encourages more people to buy Deadlock. Note: it's one of the few perks not getting nerfed and is locked behind a premium killer you cannot buy with shards.
CoB and Eruption were under the same umbrella but those perks are getting nerfed by popular survivor demand.
The new marketing strategy is clealy : make the premium killers have the good perks - even if the killer sucks people will be forced to buy it.
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@Killing_Time said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3394141#Comment_3394141
Dude every time I buy a killer for a perk they nerf it immediately
You didn't learn the lesson I did when they Nerfed Michael Myers after one week.
Don't buy DBD DLC.
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@SOULWARRIOR71K said:
I really wish my fellow killer mains would stop pretending like the gen kick meta is healthy for the game. There is nothing more boring than trying to break a 3 gen for 20 minutes because the killer has COB/Overcharge. It also isn’t even skillful.
-"I really wish my fellow killer mains would stop pretending like the gen kick meta is healthy for the game. There is nothing more boring than trying to break a 3 gen for 20 minutes because the killer has COB/Overcharge. It also isn’t even skillful."
Most of the killers have stupidly slow movement that is inappropriate for maps larger than 9000m². If the survivors hold gens in the most far apart positions then the killer automatically loses. Nurse and Blight can travel larger maps and get from Generator A to B to C in about 30 seconds because their kits feature : stupidly fast movement. Most of the other killers can't defend those generators.
Kick perks made holding a 3 gen possible. I'm sorry if you feel otherwise but there is nothing skillful about having a 4:1 advantage over a killer who is weak in chase and blasting 5 generators before the killer gets 5 hooks. As map size increases the ability to finish generators easily goes up.
I will remind you that buffing CoB/OC was the dev's idea when they nerfed Pop to oblivion. They were supposed to take over the meta to slow down generators - and it actually works IF you can keep survivors off the generators.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3394388#Comment_3394388
cob and oc are unhealthy regression perks. they abuse map design and imbalance survivor objective. a big part my survivors deaths in post 6.1 were all 3 gen killers. 30-40 minute games were not enjoyable for the survivor experience. Holding the game hostage was borderline game-breaking.
there must be a world where they can 80% of the weaker killer in the game without requiring them to take 20+ minutes to 1 game. their current ptb did exact opposite. it buffed top 20% killer turbo hard and did very little for weaker killers. I might consider making a post at some point that does global changes to buff weaker killers. I have been mostly hesitate to say anything because any time you suggest anything to improve killer, survivor player-base will go complete crazy.
-"cob and oc are unhealthy regression perks. they abuse map design and imbalance survivor objective. "
Let's talk about something briefly. Everyone knows what a "3 gen" is but my friend calls the reverse situation a "Y" gen. All the old slow M1 killers with no movement power lose the game if the survivors have a "Y" gen. Kicks perks let the old killers hold a 3 gen while committing to "short" chases.
When a killer loses their 3 gen it's roughly equal to the survivors losing one player from their team.
If every map the "old" killers can play were smaller than 9000m² AND did not have crazy linked tiles like coal tower does then DBD would be fine without gen kick perks.
But look at how many maps are NOT that small. It is impossible for the old M1 killers to defend "huge tracts of land". Only teleporters and Nurse/Blight basically can even attempt.
Kick perks let the "old cast" hold three gens.
-"a big part my survivors deaths in post 6.1 were all 3 gen killers. 30-40 minute games were not enjoyable for the survivor experience. Holding the game hostage was borderline game-breaking."
If I can't hold a 3 gen on something like 70% of the maps then I'm not going to play killer anymore. Most of the maps in DBD are designed as 3 gen or Get The "F" Out. Dead Dog, Suffocation Pit, The Game, and many, MANY of the maps play out like this. The killer must have some kind of tool to either hold 3 gens close together or the ability to travel between 3 generators in about 20 seconds. Otherwise there's just no point.
"there must be a world where they can 80% of the weaker killer in the game without requiring them to take 20+ minutes to 1 game. their current ptb did exact opposite."
Have the developers do a PTB where old M1 killers can't play maps larger than 9000m². Also remove coal tower from the list of maps because it has stupidly interlinked tiles (that m1 killers cant deal with quickly).