DBDVulture
DBDVulture
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@EmmaFrostyEyes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3432041#Comment_3432041
Tru3 just whines 24/7 so no. And yeah otz gets tough games from time to time but he does these weird builds where he will use something like unrelenting and predator. Either way they win most of their games.
And also if you play sweaty to win then yeah you should eventually go up vs people that are better than you to give you a challenge. The problem comes from when you go on a losing streak and the match making isnt doing you any favors
-"Either way they win most of their games."
Most people don't have 10,000 hours of experience to falll back on. But both get absolutely floored from time to time and to date I have never seen either post a video titled: look at me get my butt kicked during yesterday's stream.
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@Z0mbiv0r said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3432047#Comment_3432047
So what you are saying is that whenever a survivor is hooked, other survivor should go to the killer, tap them in the shoulder and tell them, 'hey, I'm vulnerable, hit me'? Nah, I just don't see it.
Don't be silly. Let's consider two options. But first a quick preface:
A survivor can flop on your shoulder 9 times with just a moment of time over that ninth wiggle before they escape. I like long carries because I tend to use STBFL and because it allows me to punish unhooks better in corners/basements/etc.
As a whole the average time for me to hook someone is 15 seconds. What do you do during that 15 seconds? You can be "afk" on a generator as one streamer likes to say or you can run during those 15 seconds to be within my terror radius. The hooking animation itself is long enough that you can stop behind some wall within like 32m and hide with no scratch marks around.
I won't know you are close and if I go around to check the nearest 3 gen this will take about 15 seconds. If you're clever you will unhook during this time. If you're afk on a gen across the map well then you missed the opportunity. Here's an idea that might blow your mind : two people could simultaneously position for the save /gasp.
If you're busy blasting a generator and no one comes after 20+ seconds after I checked my generators then I need to get closer to the hook to prevent you from making a last second save.
But survivors don't want to play in this way because they care more about escaping. Who cares if Meg loses a hook state if they trade three gens for it?
The game is not built for how people currently play the game. Everyone uses every second until they need to run to the hook to just blast generators. They become really upset when a killer body blocks instead of punching someone coming for the rescue.
"you owe me the ability to unhook the survivor right before they hit the next stage".
This idea is quite laughable really.
Unhook quickly and I won't feel the need to camp.
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@RoastedGarlic said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3432001#Comment_3432001
God I hope that game is good. Playing killer in dbd isn't enjoyable, you're either against potatoes or gods. There isn't any in between. Its not fun to just flatten survivors and its definitely not fun to get crushed.
I think the game will be amazing considering they already had a go at F13. They had the core game in a decent state considering DBD but they made some mistakes.
This will be a "do over" and it should be good.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3432010#Comment_3432010
I really don't understand how Killer is so difficult right now?
It feels pretty fair.
Perks like DH are gone. DS is gone. 3-genning (besides a certainly Dull Killer) is gone.
The game for the average Survivor is a lot worse than it is for Killer.
Even if you take the "I only face top teams" sort of thing, it's still winnable as a lot of Killers. Way more than it was 2 years ago.
-"I really don't understand how Killer is so difficult right now? It feels pretty fair."
The survivors still have the ability to win the game in under 3 minutes. Old and ineffective killers still need 6-8 minutes to finish their objective.
In what world is that fair?
@nicnc82 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3431869#Comment_3431869
Read my comment above. Killer is the easiest it's ever been. I'm a killer main for over 2 years now. With my main Pig, I usually can get 3 kills the majority of my games without camping or tunneling. It's not needed. And it's not fun for the survivors.
-"Killer is the easiest it's ever been."
I've been a killer for 6 years and you're wrong. The easiest time to play killer was the era of super bloodlust that existed before DH was a perk available to survivors.
-"with my main Pig, I usually can get 3 kills the majority of my games without camping or tunneling."
So are you better than CMWinter who is the #1 pig playing DBD? He plays against strong teams all the time and sometimes he flattens them but sometimes they just comp drop all the pallets and he gets zero kills.
You're probably not playing the same caliber of people that he plays against - no offense.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3432047#Comment_3432047
Okay, maybe I don't quite understand what people mean by 'gens before friends', then, because the way you're explaining it doesn't really... make sense?
If two gens pop while someone's on the hook, what is the killer doing? How would they even be able to facecamp in that scenario if they aren't already? They'd be across the map going for a chase while people stick on gens and not prioritise saving their 'friends'/teammates, right? That's what gens before friends means, it means not going for a save or being altruistic and sticking on your objective. Facecamping doesn't punish that because they're already not going for that save.
On the flipside, if the killer is already facecamping, then going for that save becomes a bad idea (unless it's an M1 killer with no ability to stop the save, but generally it's safe to assume a facecamping killer is one who can do something with their power to make saves more threatening). Therefore, 'gens before friends' becomes the way you counter that, you stick on generators and don't bother going for a save until the end, if at all.
The changes proposed don't interact with gens before friends in any way whatsoever. It's still the right call when killers facecamp because if you go over there the timer slows, and if you as the killer realise the survivors aren't being altruistic then a tactic that specifically and only punishes altruism won't function.
-"If two gens pop while someone's on the hook, what is the killer doing?"
Maybe they are chasing the person that came for the rescue that they saw in the middle of the map. You need to remember that there is zero pressure on survivors that are not in a chase when the killer is busy.
Once upon a time survivors died much faster on the hook. I think it was 30 seconds faster per phase- if I am wrong someone will be sure to correct me. The theory when Horvath put that in the game was that : survivors would rush to the hook sooner to get the unhook. But that's not what happened. Survivors got +30 seconds to finish generators and then only left when they had exactly enough time to get the unhook.
Let's assume the worst and the killer is playing scummy. Two gens pop and in 15 seconds the survivor will hit the next hook state. What do you do as killer? You make them go for an unhook and force a grab. If you get the grab you drop that player immediately so you can grab the other player.
Most of the time when you play against vicious hook campers the solution to stop the camping is to unhook that player almost immediately. Almost always the killer needs to kick a generator, pallet, reset a trap or reload from a locker right after a hook event. If you're across the map chugging away on a generator then you missed the moment when the killer was occupied.
Survivors don't think like that because they don't play killer. They don't know that nearly 95% of the time I hook someone I always have some little errand to do. The other thing on survivors minds is that this is not "efficient" play; they should only unhook a player right before the next phase to optimize the team efficiency.
At that point it becomes killer efficiency vs survivor efficiency. If you're playing survivor efficiently against me then I will have to mirror that stance against you. I will camp and tunnel one player out of the game.
In as few words as possible :
It's a show of good faith to the killer that as a survivor you rescue another survivor quickly. If you're not rescuing quickly and you try to play efficiently then I will do the same and force the second stage. Then I will immediately tunnel the person off the hook because that is efficient play.
I want to leave the hook and be able to go chase other people. Often times people hide or run to areas that lead to a nearly impossible chase. If that's the way you want to play it then I will pressure you by forcing a hook state. You can preemptively counter me by rescuing your friend early.
If you don't do that then you are contributing to the "camp and tunnel" meta.
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@Crazewtboy said:
I've experienced this feeling too lately. It feels like no matter what I do, no matter what perks I run or how I play, if I am not playing the top three killers I am getting destroyed with no hopes. After a few matches I look back to see what I did wrong and try to change things. Sometimes I chalk it up to a bad day on my part, sometimes I can alter some things and do better, but there are those matches in between where I just feel powerless. Like no matter how I look at things, there was nothing I could have done differently to achieve a different result because gens just went so quick. Here is where I put the blame at.
A lot of people were self healing with medkits and circle of healing. Now that is gone, and with Sloppy Butcher back in full force on top of it a lot of people have seemed to just ignore healing all together and do gens instead. At the same time, a large portion of gen regression perks got nerfed. They needed adjusting sure, but was an update pushing survivors away from healing really the best time to do so? Because if survivors aren't healing, they are more than likely on a gen (this is assuming they aren't being chased/hooked) and without those gen regression perks it is contributing to that helpless feeling. It makes camping feel viable because in most scenarios camping means someone is going right back on that hook if the person gets off of it.
-"It feels like no matter what I do, no matter what perks I run or how I play, if I am not playing the top three killers I am getting destroyed with no hopes"
Don't worry friend - there are many people who play killer often who feel the same way. If you're not playing the best killers then you are very likely to lose against above average survivors because at almost every turn the rules of DBD are against the killer.
Maps are too safe.
SWF has no penalties and is chocked full of bonuses
Survivors get tunnel protection but the killer gets no gen rush protection.
In short DBD is an unfair game.
"It makes camping feel viable because in most scenarios camping means someone is going right back on that hook if the person gets off of it."
The reality is that the only way to apply pressure is to hook the same person over and over. Removing one player from the game when not playing a top killer lets you get ahead of the survivors.
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@Mondhirsch said:
They said the Dwight-Crow charm is exclusive. Later they gifted it to everyone.
They said the Fruitcake charm is exclusive. Later they gifted it to everyone.
They said the Trapper-Charm is exclusive to everyone who bought that one game in a certain time. Now they gifted it to everyone.
I'm honest: I'm pretty mad about BHVR saying things are exclusive and then giving it to everyone.
How do we know that the Charm in the Comic will actually be exclusive (like BHVR states now)?
The problem is that you assume the definition of exclusive to mean : you can never have this except this one way.
An exclusive unlock that lets you have the content 6 months before everyone else is still exclusive.
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@jesterkind said:
Gens before friends is how you counter facecamping right now, though? So that's kind of backwards.
Gens before friends also means that while you have someone on the hook, you can go chase + down someone else and it's entirely possible the first survivor is still on the hook, so it's again the inverse of the camping situation.
The only thing you can punish by camping is actually an excess of altruism, where survivors linger and loop around their hooked teammate and don't go back to their generators.
-"Gens before friends is how you counter facecamping right now, though?"
You have the situation backwards. If two gens pop while I have someone hooked then the survivor on the hook needs to pay for those gens. What happens if the killer trades 5 gens for 5 hook states? Unless those hook states are on only two players then they have likely lost the game. Things are of course different when you play Nurse and Blight but the are the exception that works. I will also remind you that the majority of the survivor player base wants to see those killers obliterated.
Gen rushing with the "gens before friends" mind set pushes the killer to camp. Why? They can't defend the generators but they can defend the player on the hook. If you leave the gens and give the killer a viable/vulnerable target then he might leave the hook to chase you.
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@EmmaFrostyEyes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3432024#Comment_3432024
“The survivor objective can be finished in 3-4 minutes by expert players.”so im guessing your a expert killer player since you only play vs expert survivors. Can we see the gameplay then?
Remove me from the euqation so you can't say I'm bad and I am the problem.
Go watch Otz and Truetalent. Both of them will occasionally get the "gen rush" and the game ends with 1-3 hook states. Yes it is true the majority of players cannot repair gens efficiently and be strong loopers. But what's a killer supposed to do when that happens?
When you see 9000+ hour players suffering with "real" builds you know something is wrong with the game design. I'm guessing you're not going to tell them to "get good" when they play the game for a living as a professional.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3431990#Comment_3431990
Do you know how you can counter this?
Dont camp and go for other Survivors. There are 3 more in the Trial.
The survivor objective can be finished in 3-4 minutes by expert players. Meanwhile the killer objective takes 6-8 minutes (barring major survivor malfunctions).
When we look at 9000+ hour streamers playing weak killers you hear things like : I can't take that chase. That's a massive design problem with DBD in that " I can't take that chase" is a phrase that should be deleted from the game before we try to remove face camping.
Most of the maps in DBD are unfair to most of the killers. Otz made a video where has Nurse/Blight with best addons facing the best survivor teams in the world. His conclusion was : DBD is fine when both sides bring the very best.
Where was the best Doctor/Trapper/Michael Myers playing against Hens squad? We all know why it didn't happen : Hens and crew would have flattened the ineffective killers.
There is nobody in the world who could hope to beat Hens crew reliably using a pathetic killer on the extremely unfair maps we have in DBD right now.
-"go for other Survivors. There are 3 more in the Trial."
People said the same thing when one player was abusing infinite windows in 2016. It's as silly to say now as it was back then. Every killer needs to be viable at every loop in the game or certain killers need to be immune from facing those loops.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3431700#Comment_3431700
And plus they announced 2 survivor-sided maps will be re-balanced. But they ignored that fact as well.
You need to take this with a grain of salt because when they reworked Gas Heaven it only became stronger for expert level survivors.
Blood Lodge is however more fair than it was before so there is that.
I feel like the first thing they are going to do with Abattoir is make it bigger. Someone will be like why is this survivor sided map so small? Let's make it bigger and even more unfair for the killer!
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@YukariTheAlpaca said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3431948#Comment_3431948
Then survivors need to be prepared to face Nurse and Blight (using every tech in the book) every game. Two killers I personally hate facing and playing due to their ability to just safely ignore tiles. Killer players who don't play Nurse/Blight will either leave the game, switch sides, or just learn Nurse/Blight.
-"Then survivors need to be prepared to face Nurse and Blight every game."
It's going to be worse than that - Killers are all going to play Texas Chainsaw. You get a group of friends and kill together. There's no more of this lonely solo killer nonsense.
@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3431959#Comment_3431959
They are not nerfing the proxy camping which is healthy for game. They are nerfing this:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/IUKCHENEVOUO/image.png
Don't get me wrong. I am not against nerfing some maps for making them more balanced. Buffing some killers for making them perform better etc. But seriously we should not allow plays like this anymore. We should see how is the game without camping & tunnelling and balance should be around this.
-"We should see how is the game without camping & tunnelling and balance should be around this."
The problem with DBD in its current state is there is no real way to stop survivors from doing generators. A strong SWF will finish the game in under 4 minutes. A comp team can finish the gens in 3 minutes.
When you say : "DBD needs tunneling prevention," you're only thinking about the survivor half of the equation. Killers need to be able to defend generators or there's no point in playing. It's beyond not fun to have survivors finish the gens by the time you get 2-4 hooks unless you hooked one player three times so you just camp the next player to death and get your 2 kills. Is that fun? It's really not for most of the people involved but that's where we are in the game's lifecycle.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3431701#Comment_3431701
This couldn't be more wrong.
In every scenario in which you would be incentivised to camp, when camping would be a legit strategy, this mechanic doesn't work. It slows down when other survivors are nearby, and it's disabled entirely once the exits are powered.
There is simply no reason to facecamp the first survivor you hook without any other survivors nearby, unless you're intentionally trying to ruin the game for everyone.
You missed the entire point of what I said just now.
Survivors have multiple layers of tunneling protection that include:
- 10 seconds of borrowed time off the hook
- Free unhook yourself if the killer is camping.
- Extremely powerful perks like Reassurance and Kinship.
Where's the killer protection to prevent the gens from being done in 3-4 minutes? That's not a thing because there is nearly zero consideration for killer when we talk about core game mechanics.
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Once again we see the problem : it's ok for the survivors to tunnel their objective but the killer is not afforded the same protection mechanics to prevent losing the gens too fast.
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@Boons123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3431232#Comment_3431232
Most of the reworks make maps worse not better; perfect examples of this are Gas Heaven and Garden of Joy
No, it has become more fair , and that wall of cars no longer exists
Do you have a problem differentiating between "add a map" and "rework maps"?
Garden of Joy has not been rework before
-"No, it has become more fair"
Except it hasn't due to numerous little tweaks. Why did they permanently open up one of the breakable walls in main? That's a perfect example of how not to make breakable walls: where breaking them gives survivors better loops. They didn't trim the map anywhere to make things smaller.
They added some safe pallets where in the past is was basiaclly dead zone.
If you look at "pro players" on Gas Heaven before you can see now that they have an even more favorable map now than it was before. That's a downgrade in terms of fairness.
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@Crowman said:
There simply isn't any incentive to not tunnel.
The killer gets nothing for hooking three players once each. For hooking one player three times in a row the survivors get a permanent -25% reduction in all actions because one player is gone.
@tyrese112499 said:
What has been going on recently. 99% of my games begin and someone gets tunneled out instantly and normally they have a mori. Ive never had so much of an issue with this before like what is going on? Mind you I play killer and survivor. I have never been so disgusted and tbh not want to play the game more in worry of running into people who kill right off hook or wait the bt out then insta down over and over. Quite honestly it ruins the fun of the game and the merit of having a fun hard faught game when the game is won instantly by tunneling.
-"What has been going on recently. 99% of my games begin and someone gets tunneled out instantly"
The survivor objective can be finished in 3-4 minutes depending on how big of a rush they are in. Meanwhile the killer objective usually takes 6-8 minutes or more.
When survivors rush the generators the only way a killer can "catch up" is by removing one player from the game.
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@Sava18 said:
"the devs are already fixing the maps"
lmao
Speed running your post being disregarded. The last 2 maps and every rework but haddonfield has been survivor sided.
Haddonfield is still survivor sided- what are you on?
The Blood lodge rework actually makes the map more fair to killer. That map was almost impossible to win before vs efficient players.
@Boons123 said:
I do not support the idea of removing it or touching its effect
Most of the arguments are, "I don't want the survivors sending me to that map." Or "The maps are unbalanced"
It would be annoying waiting for the game to send you to your favorite map and keep trying all day and then you don't get it
First, removing map Offerings or reversing their effect will not solve the problem the game will still send you to that map when you run out of offerings you just made it less likely that you would go there
secondly, it will make the game less enjoyable, because you deprive players of the experience and enjoyment of maps "no more jump scare Myers in indoor maps"
Thirdly, the developers are already fixing the maps regardless of the duration
Fourth, use the "Sacrificial Ward" and it will include a random map they just need to be modified to make it foolproof 100%
If removed or altered, I demand that the offerings prevent the Legion from appearing in a match and force him to play a different killer
-"the developers are already fixing the maps regardless of the duration"
Most of the reworks make maps worse not better; perfect examples of this are Gas Heaven and Garden of Joy. Why are these maps a problem?
Well first let's talk about what maps a map fair.
- A fair map is approximately 9000m² (preferably under that size). Why does that matter? When it takes killers 15 seconds to walk somewhere just to begin to do anything it kills any pressure you could put on the survivors.
- Fair maps have multiple possible positions for "3 gens". When you look at a map like dead dog saloon you realize that there is basically one really strong three gen and once you break it the killer is in deep trouble. Garden of Joy has a "U" shaped generator distribution and generally speaking there are no three gen locations.
- Fair maps have limited "tile chaining". One of the things that makes many of the farm maps gross is that you have tiles that a survivor can chain together. When a survivor can efficiently move from tile to tile without using resources it breaks the game. All the while they have the "threat" of using a pallet. When you look at the coal tower map it is usually a big offender with the ability to chain tiles together. Another absusive map with tile chaining is the middle of the Suffocation Pit where there are many linked walls and pallets.
- Fair maps have very limited numbers of "god" pallets. So when we look at "the game" map it's pretty clear that this tileset is unfair to older M1 killers. A survivor can just loop a pallet over and over until you break them. If you do not then the chase is effectively over. When you look at some of the most survivor sided maps (like Garden of Joy and the Farm maps) you will see that almost all the pallets are god pallets. Once upon a time we had "unsafe" pallets that were incredibly hard to use and very risky because they were on such a short loop that the killer could go around the pallet and hit you easily. These were almost entirely removed from the game a few years ago and that might be "ok" if we had basically done the same with god pallets.
- Fair maps have a main building that isn' t an automatic huge waste of time. Some massive offenders here are Garden of Joy and Badham. These are perfect examples of how not to design a map.
What's an example of a fair map?
The only fair map left in the game is : Wreckers Yard. It checks all the boxes for "is this map fair". Although it was discontinued the Stranger things map (Hawkins National Labratory) was also a fair map.
What are honorable mentions for a fair map?
Father Campbell's chapel used to be a fair map but they changed it recently so that it is not a fair map. Why is it a problem? They essentially removed the most viable three gen location (so there are no longer multiple options). This map can be problematic with RNG where one game it is fine and the next it gives survivors a near infinite which breaks the "fair main building" rule.
Rancid Abattoir can be a fair map but isn't always fair. What? Sometimes the gens are in a pretty fair spot where you have multiple three gens and some times they are not (because RNG is a thing). This map can spawn with "extra" pallets and when it does it is unfair to the older M1 killers. This is a perfect example of how to design a fair breakable wall. You break the wall and the loop on the main building becomes nearly worthless.
The Grim Pantry is almost a fair map. You will notice that it is way too large (almost 11,000m²). If you cut off the 32m* 64m extension on the back of the map then this would very likely be a fair map.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3430230#Comment_3430230
Without perks or a video its hard to tell. It probably was longer than 30 seconds. But assuming it was. It could have been hyperfocus + toolbox + BNP on 3 survivors.
It's really gross they didn't touch that perk with the last patch. At the very least it needs the autodidact treatment where you don't get more checks b/c of toolbox.
I was using Corrupt recently and I had 3 gens pop in the first minute while I was chasing someone and had pressure on two other players. The first down was actually a grab from someone on a 99% completed generator and an injured survivor ran over to finish it right before I kicked it.
Deadlock needs to be base kit. Change the perk by the same name to extend the perk +30 seconds.
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@Lefer said:
I disagree with this problem.
I explain why :
As a survivor you have only one thing to do to win this game : do Gen. There is no rules on time just you have to do generators.
Only a killer could complain about that because if you try to find solutions about this "problem" you are touching the only goal of the surv.
There are so many perks that help the killer to bump gens and to hold the progression.
It happens to me to be a killer and to get "Gen rush" but I cannot complain about that. They were just better than me.
-"There are so many perks that help the killer to bump gens and to hold the progression."
You should go to work for Russia with that level of spin. Two of the perks got nerfed by 70 and 75% so those are out. Eruption got changed to show auras so that's out. Pop is still dead because it's current progress. Ruin is dead because it only does 100% instead of 200% regression.
Meanwhile none of the survivor gen rush perks got touched. Toolboxes are still in a broken state (looking back at Otz's review from last year).
@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3428767#Comment_3428767
If you think map design is now biased towards survivors, then don't look at old videos and how maps used to look like. Shack having 2 windows, literal infinites, many many many more pallets, vaults that now require you to break doors were the same - with exception that breakable doors didn't exist, so they were solid walls instead. Like you have now RNG where one thing or the other has window (e.g. wretched shop's main can have window on the basement side, or directly on the opposite side) - these things got created by blocking 1 existing window from old design (and RNG will just say which one is blocked this time) and many reworks shrunk maps (see old pale rose or old eyrie of crows or old old blood lodge or ...).
Map generations is super-duper killer sided these days compared to how it was. Check old videos on youtube if you don't believe me. But the funny thing is - killers were able to play the game at that time. It's only now that "the game is unplayable with how they make new maps now" totally disregarding how things actually used to be. It doesn't even matter that official stats say 60% kill rate on average - it still feels like high MMR killers barely get 1k/month by the complaints (how did they get to high MMR then? Perhaps facecamping iron+agi+deadlock+NOED bubba that never chases and is then pikachu faced, that he "can't get anyone because of horrible map design"? Yes this is extreme example, but if you only camp and tunnel w best addons, then after some time expect some of the survivors being well equipped to deal with it).
While on the other hand - soloQ is dead (meaning hardest one by huge margin) and only killer and 4-man has tolerable success rate.
-"Map generations is super-duper killer sided these days compared to how it was."
Hold the hype train a moment; what you're saying is mostly true. In 2016 the shack did have two windows and one was covered forever very quickly.
What you said nothing about was that Pallets had a smaller hitbox when you drop them (which has been increased twice since then) and it had a delay on drop before the stun (instead of now where it is insant). Why does that matter? Well most of the old pallets were unsafe. It was very easy to trade a stun for a hit. And so yes some maps very rarely had 22 pallets on a map like Blood Lodge you might need to use 2 pallets within 10 seconds. You cannot loop them like you can now. Pallet looping was not available as an option until we had the larger hitbox and instant stun on drop change.
Some of the maps were just different. Did you know for example that you could trap a survivor in the top room of Ironworks of Misery? It was very easy to "keep" them there. There were no drops and the only way down was from a staircase - running all the way down. Now that map is a perfect example because there was an infinite at the top of the stairs in the chest/totem room. There was also the old nearly infinite window on that map in the main room - which is now a complete joke to use.
You need to realize that I ended most chases in that era in 30 seconds from full health to first down if there were no windows available. That's a reflection that without windows the pallets just sucked.
Also Billy could use the saw to sprint from literally any point A to any point B (with no cooldown). They reworked the maps so that's not a thing anymore but in the past a good Billy would stop his sprint a few feet from you and then resume chase.
I'm guessing you also forgot about old Shelter Woods that had a 76% kill rate (go check out one of the first few streams). It didn't have any infinite windows once the shack window got closed.
Also just as a general reflection of the time : many people on hook would try to escape a few times and they would instantly go to tier 2 because you're not supposed to do that. And don't forget hook timers were shorter. They were made longer some time around 2018 I think (maybe a little sooner).
NOED lasted forever and wasn't a totem so it could not be removed.
So while there was a lot of bad there was a lot of fun to be had for the killer too.
Most people forget but Wraith actually got a nerf when he was reworked. He didn't used to uncloak as slowly as he does now.
Bear traps used to have about twice as much surface area to "suck in" players. You could put them on a 4 lane and there was no "stepping around them" go down the lane and you hit that trap. On the flipside you could also break them forever with Sabotage.
Which brings us to the point that AGI+IG was pretty much always a basement except on Azarov's - but in that period when you dropped someone the stun was less than a second so often they took 6 steps and you hit them again. The tech of the day was dropping them against a wall so they had no tiles to work with.
Let's just call it what it is - DBD does NOT have better more fair maps now than it did before . The maps favored survivors in the past and largely speaking they still do. What changed? They look prettier and most of the pallets now are god pallets.
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@1ettuce said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3428938#Comment_3428938
Every killer nerf/buff in 6.1.0 can be matched with a survivor nerf/buff from the same patch, with the exception of the general killer improvements. I hate to ride numbers, but kill rates went up after the patch for a reason. Only significant killer nerfs since then have been nurse nerf, eruption nerf, basekit bt buff, and solo hud which doesn't count bc we're talking about what buffs killer got to compensate for solo getting buffed, could almost say the same for eruption tbh
-"Every killer nerf/buff in 6.1.0 can be matched with a survivor nerf/buff from the same patch"
Let's look at the direction of the game since then. Are gens faster or slower? They are faster because gen regression got obliterated. That's really interesting because before 6.0 I was popping gens for 20 seconds six to nine times per game. That's an added two to three minutes to the survivor objective.
Quite often I would pop a gen someone was working on and they run off. I chase the guy I was after hook them and go right back to the gen poppnig it - invalidating everything that guy on the gen was doing.
That's gone. The problem with 4v1 is that you need to have some kind of mechanical advantage where you're making progress of some kind. You don't advance hook states anymore without sacrificing gens unless the team is super passive.
Today I lost three gens before losing corrupt. I was playing nemesis and had two whips/punches on two players and a grab on a very silly survivor. It was absolutely unreal. There was only one toolbox (no bnp) and no real gen rush perks either. It would not surprise me if someone in that game was cheating the gen speeds but we'll never know.
As a matter of fact most of the 6.1 buffs to killer are basically gone. I would rather play 6.0 killer than whatever patch we are on now. This is the supidest meta ever since we had infinite windows.
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@LapisInfernalis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3428941#Comment_3428941
They do medium pallets a lot now but the problem is that they often chain together with stronger tiles (Garden of Pain, Square). I think the design on The Game is problematic because of the general Layout. You have the stairs, all the high shelves and boxes. A start would be to remove one of the 2 pallets beside basement and in the control room as well as having only 1 pallet at the corner stairs. Weaken the pallet below the god window drop and shorten the shelf/box loops to be actual mindgamable. You can see every killer over the boxes beside Sadako I think. Add some Windows on the top floor (like that one on one of the Midwich exit) for Lithe users.
I remember the Hawkins Lab map, I liked it a lot, but many people hated it because there were many very save Gen spawns (upside-down room, isolation cell and if unlucky gens could spawn on the railings too). But otherwise it was OK and I miss it. I would like if they made a similar map without the ST reference. Maybe they can do it as an Umbrella Lab as second Resident Evil map.
-"Maybe they can do it as an Umbrella Lab as second Resident Evil map."
That's a great idea that will likely never happen. Another great thing about the Hawkins map was that it was a fair size. No map larger than 9000m² is fair for the "regular" move speed killers.
-"They do medium pallets a lot now"
Lol are we playing a different game? No they don't. Most pallets are part of a jungle gym or rock structure where it's super safe to loop.
Since you mentioned it look at garden of joy. If you look at the front door of the house then at the back right facing you have a jungle gym. That's a safe pallet and so is the one attached to the house and so is the optional one inside the house.
There's several "filler" rock pallets that are completely safe. The truck loop in front of the house is safe. The car park pallet loop is safe. The Jungle gym near car park is safe. And we all know shack pallet is always safe.
There's usually one weak pallet somewhere on the map but you almost miss it because of all the other 100% get out of jail free pallets.
Are you sure you know what safe/unsafe is? Both of the pallets around cars near the outside of Badham main building are unsafe. they are "fair" pallets where the killer can earn a hit via mindgame.
What we don't have anymore are "unsafe" pallets. Remember those incredibly weak pallets kinda in the middle of nowhere on the old Haddonfield? It was like 3 steps around a tree+ a pallet.
Those are fair to have in the game when we have lots of god pallets. One of the things people forget about "old" maps is that they had a lot of "trash" pallets.
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@1ettuce said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3428920#Comment_3428920
Keep tunneling as easy as it is now and people will still do it even if not tunneling is stronger. If you want to actually fix tunneling you should have no problem with it being nerfed
You need to realize Tunneling is forced upon the killer because the game has very safe tiles AND because survivors tunnel gens.
I would love for gens to be longer and killers dont want to chase the same person because there is a better bonus waiting
@For_The_People said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3428938#Comment_3428938
I’m a little confused about something. You say you tunnel and play harshly because it’s a counter measure for you against strong swfs. But you also mentioned (maybe in another thread) that you actively dodge all lobbies and that hint swfs AND screen snipe TTVs (not all TTVs play swf) -meaning you’re tunnelling and sniping against soloQ players?
although I don’t agree with tunnelling I can semi understand if you felt (as you’ve said many times) it was something you use to offset against the advantage of survivors in swf, but it now appears you just want to have a total stomp. Is that fun?
-" but it now appears you just want to have a total stomp. Is that fun?"
My games are not a total stomp. I just screen out the ones where I would likely get flattened. Where do you get the impression I want easy games? I want fair games. The problem is that in order to have that with "low" tier killers that I enjoy playing you need to stack the deck a bit.
I haven't played Nurse or Blight in years. They're unhealthy for the game as a whole being so much better than everything else.
About 10 mins ago I played a game vs a dwight that looped me for almost the entire duration of my corrupt. It didn't matter in the end because nobody could work on the gens near where he was looping or hooked. In a sense I allowed it as he was burning very strong pallets. That game was razor close and I should have lost but the survivors made a few major mistakes. One player went down for the dight and the team left them on the floor. They finished the last gen then got that person up but I got someone else down in the meantime.
I ended up getting 3 kills that game because people made huge mistakes. But if you look at the majority of my games they have been razor close. If I played "nice" it would be three players out every game.
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@LapisInfernalis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3426227#Comment_3426227
"The Game" should have less pallets anyway. As someone who uses WoO I can see how many god pallets are right next to each other or at stairs right on top of each other. And on that map it's insane. I know Midwich has more pallets, but they are usually mindgameable and I never feel so helpless on Midwich as on The Game unless I am Nurse or Spirit.
Actually "the game" would be fine if most of the pallets were unsafe. But largely speaking the developers dont use unsafe pallets anymore.
One of the reasons that the Stranger Things map was good is because it had a lot of "weak" pallets.
Imagine if "the game" had 25 pallets but there were only 2 god pallets. What a thought right?
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@1ettuce said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3428539#Comment_3428539
Step two was partially done in 6.1.0 tbf, emphasis on partially
Excuse me?
Pop was obliterated. Eruption was obliterated. Every gen regression "buff" gained in 6.1 was lost in the last patch.
Killer is in a "nerfed" state considering the times before 6.1 when you look at the game as a whole. Yes DH was annoying but I played around it with STBFL. Not getting to use gen regression hurts way more.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3428710#Comment_3428710
If Devour Hope stayed in effect, the Killer does not gain any benefit unless they are 24m + from the unhook.
The Killer gets BETTER the more unhooks the Survivors perform, as long as they move away from the hook.
Devour Hope would need some nerf, or it would be too strong without the hex, but it is a great example of how to incentivize Killers to not camp. Give them better odds of success by not camping.
Tunneling would need something similar, but also require a gen slowdown or the benefit would never be realized as the gates would be powered before the benefit manifested.
I've been saying for a long time that DH needs to go poof. It's dumb and almost never works. But when it does work that game is just completely ruined to play.
@1ettuce said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3428714#Comment_3428714
Giving killers a flat buff and no nerf will not fix camping or tunneling. Ever.
That's not true. Quick and easy example : you make not tunneling stronger than tunneling /gasp.
Give the survivors a 9% debuff to everything the first time they are hooked if nobody is dead yet. This will make the killer want to stack a quick -36% debuff by getting 4 hooks on different players. Make the debuff stay for the rest of the game once earned.
This will drag the game out as gens will take ~122 seconds when the full debuff hits. So everyone plays for longer; no more does Jake get hooked 3 times in the first two minutes and everyone else plays without him for 4-8 minutes.
@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3428721#Comment_3428721
Would the game be better if every Killer aside from Bubba had strong incentive not to Camp?
If so, this is the path that will actually work (aside from total newbs).
IF you have an option that is stronger than camping/tunneling then most killers will do that.
The reality is that Blight and Nurse can get super quick downs so they don't need to camp or tunnel. The rest of the killer cast is pathetic by comparison and needs to tunnel and camp vs efficient teams.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3428689#Comment_3428689
I read your post. It's still a double standard. Survivors want killers to be punished or forbidden, but don't want survivors to be nerfed to allow this to happen. They want killers to take the full burden of this game change.
Because if you want tunneling to be removed from the game, then it needs to be much easier to find someone else to chase. If you want to punish tunneling, then the game should also punish survivors that try to excessively hide from the killer. The game should force both sides to interact with each other, instead of just forcing killers to change, and allowing survivors to be as non-interactive as possible.
"Survivors want killers to be punished or forbidden, but don't want survivors to be nerfed to allow this to happen. They want killers to take the full burden of this game change."
The problem is that survivors want killers to be punished for playing efficiently (tunneling) but they want to break the killer's 3 gen setup and "rush" (tunnel) the gens for an easy win. You can't have it both ways.
-"Because if you want tunneling to be removed from the game, then it needs to be much easier to find someone else to chase."
There was a discussion years ago on the developer discord and it went something like this: If I am skilled enough then I should be able to loop the killer forever. That doesn't make any sense as there are 3 other players who can do generators. It might make sense if the killer could stall the generators forever. We kinda had that last patch to a degree and both sides hated it.
-" If you want to punish tunneling, then the game should also punish survivors that try to excessively hide from the killer. The game should force both sides to interact with each other, instead of just forcing killers to change, and allowing survivors to be as non-interactive as possible."
So much truth in one post. DBD probably should have given the killer BBQ vision with every hook. It was a good mechanic that lets the killer have an objective besides camped the dude on the hook.
I love good stealth play but the problem is that stealth play was born at a time when there was no looping. DBD should be a game where you can loop or stealth but not both. The problem is that you can most definitely do both as a survivor and that's not really fair to the killer.
@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3428608#Comment_3428608
I've seen the saying "tunnelling gens" quite a bit over the last several months and assumed people were parroting a content creator. My assumption was a streamer who starts with T, I'm curious if it was them.
I've been using that term for almost 2 years now. It's silly when survivors cry about killers tunneling and its silly when you say survivors are tunneling gens. Both sides are supposed to do that.
It's equally fun for both sides when your objective becomes impossible.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3428510#Comment_3428510
What the hell is ‘tunnel out generators’? Someone explain what this means. I’m sure this person will have some weird-ass response I just don’t get. Lol. @Pulsar ? You’ve been here a while. Tell me
Ever play killer and the survivors finish blasting out two generators instead of going for the save? Then they try to run across the map right before stage two and you deny the unhook as killer?
"Gens before friends" is basically the tunneling mantra. Survivors were given extra time on the hook years ago so people would come unhook you. Instead survivors "optimize" the time by blasting generators until the last second. the only problem is that if the killer punishes then it backfires. Then he will tunnel them down since they are on death hook.
@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3428546#Comment_3428546
You didn’t mean that as a joke. You were dead ass serious. If any part of that comment was a joke, it was your conviction. Misplaced, hon.
Ah yes you know my mind better than I do, buddy (/sarcasm).
Tunneling survivors out of the game is a made up term. The killer's job is to kill; you don't get all gens to 33% before you get them all to 66% do you? So I'm not going to hook each person once and get nothing. Hooking one person three times gives me a huge boost. So I'm gonna do that forever and always.
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@EmmaFrostyEyes said:
when someone used the term “tunneling gens” you just dont take them seriously. I know where that term comes from and yeah its a complete joke
It's meant to be a joke. Tunneling gens and people out of the game are equally weighted actions that make you play more efficiently.
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@1ettuce said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3428510#Comment_3428510
but ill say im not asking for killers not to tunnel lol im asking for the devs to make killers not want to tunnel this was the whole point of the damn post!!!!
The old plan was : buff solo to be closer to SWF. They massively did that with the hud changes.
Step two was buff killers - but we likely wont get that part of the plan.
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@1ettuce said:
1: "Wow tunneling is really unfun, I wish the devs did something to make it less viable"
2: "Why should the killer play for your fun? The killer's objective is to kill and tunneling is the best strategy for killing. Stop being entitled and let ppl play how they want to."
Notice how nothing 2 said is incorrect really. The problem is, to put it simply, nobody asked. 1 is simply saying they wished the game would be changed in a way that discourages tunneling, not that killer players themselves aren't allowed to tunnel. I see stuff like this get said a lot and it's like some ppl really don't understand the difference between player responsibility and dev responsibility :/ you should be able to make suggestions without ppl going "it's part of the game" as if that means it should be.
Also don't get me wrong, tunneling isn't at all the only thing this applies to, that was just an example. Same thing could sometimes be said about comments like "do killers just want survivors to dance around gens?" when said in response to a suggestion to make sticking to gens less viable, or something like that
Killers camp and tunnel because survivors tunnel out generators. Removing gen defense perks made it worse because killers lost a huge amount of control in the game.
You cant ask for killers to not tunnel until survivors cant either.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3427605#Comment_3427605
It really isn't.
Killers will tunnel so long as it's easy and effective.
The issue is that in order to make something stronger than tunneling, it would need to be incredibly overpowered.
There's really no substitute for getting someone out of the match.
"Killers will tunnel so long as it's easy and effective."
And you say this knowing how? Even your next statement seems to indicate this isn't true. The move to tunneling has been a slow change. When killer loses the ability to control generators it moves to control the thing it can control.
Look for example at the "end game" hook scenario. There was a time people would get mad at a killer camping them on hook when there was literally nothing else for the killer to do. Having no other viable objective we see a push where they get "something" out of camping/tunneling.
Simply put the removal of control and lack of options for killer encourages tunneling and camping.
-"The issue is that in order to make something stronger than tunneling, it would need to be incredibly overpowered."
Maybe that's what the game needs right now instead of the devs just ignoring the problem.
The game would be a little longer due to the built in slowdown and "feel less good" maybe but everyone would get to play for the majority of the match.
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@BloodBird said:
is there a reason you quote responsed me about my criticism that all players do is compare to nurse/blight only to compare wraith to nurse/blight, quite a lot. Like you didn't even address what i said.
For the love of god, I'm not stupid, i never compared to nurse/blight, i said people underestimate just how good a wraith CAN be, and often tier list him lower than they should.
All you people are so butthurt by the idea that any killer you don't respect as strong, can actually be.
If i see any more responses here that have anything more to say than nurse/blight comparisons i'll read them otherwise it's dribble.
-"Like you didn't even address what i said."
You : Waith is strong.
Me : no he's not here's video proof.
The problem is that your definition of good raises the question : good relative to what. Wraith is good when compared to Trapper with no addons. Does that mean anything ? No.
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@ReikoMori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3427114#Comment_3427114
What are you wanting to change for SWFs? The devs literally can't balance around out of game actions. How do you make up for the potential of coordination between teammates in VC? Making perks and items scale down just because someone decides to play with friend group is a recipe for disaster, same with scaling killers up. Killers do need buffs, but like there isn't anything I think they can do for us that directly addresses SWFs. You want them to basically put malware in their game so they can disable everyone's VC programs of choice?
"What are you wanting to change for SWFs? The devs literally can't balance around out of game actions."
You most certainly can because most MOBAs do. They limit how many people you can play with unless it is a "team only" match.
Add the rule : no character/item/offering/perk repeats in a SWF.
That makes solo queue have an advantage over SWF.
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@Kirarozu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3427114#Comment_3427114
were literally supposed to do generators. Get better at killer. I see plenty of killers 4k without tunneling or camping. Saying you need survivors to not play the game to win just outs yourself as a skill issue.
How many tournament winning survivors have you played against? Oh right the answer is zero. How often do you play against people with 5000-10000 hours? The answer is probably none yet.
We are playing a different game because you're not playing efficient survivors.
I can play on my brothers account where he never plays killer and 3k/4k every single game. Killer is "overpowered" against people who have no clue how to play this game. But against people who know how to play efficiently the situation is reversed unless you play a very strong killer or have Best in Slot addons.
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Imagine if hooking a survivor that has never been hooked gives all survivors a 9% penalty to all actions for the rest of the game if no one is dead at the time of the hook (the penalty stays forever).
Killers will actively hunt out at least three players and hook them for that juicy 27% slowdown from 3 hooks and zero perk slots.
It has to be at least 9% because hooking one player 3 times is just 25% slowdown for the survivors (and is far easier).
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3427114#Comment_3427114
We already know that further buffs to killers/nerfs to survivors are only going to increase tunnelling and camping.
We need an actual solution, not 'make me op and I'll consider ruining the game a little bit less, trust'.
Do you know the story about the sun and the wind having a bet?
Give killers a huge buff for not tunneling that is better than tunneling and they won't. It's really that simple.
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@Mr_Digi said:
Note that i say Hard tunneling.
tunneling when nothing else it logical to do is one thing, but now days every game is: Game starts, Killer find one guys and insta tunnel them out of the game. with 5 and 4 gens left... I recently came back to the game after a break, but i'm about to go back on another break because its just not fun. And tbh, judging by the steam reviews where 50% is negetive, i think its really time to stop releasing new chapters and actually focus on game health. I know you are money hungry, but money will go away if you dont do anything to fix the current tunnel meta
You want killers to stop tunneling? Ok I would like that too assuming you mean you want to introduce a mechanic to keep survivors from tunneling generators.
Oh wait you only want the killer to stop focusing on his objective so you can keep focusing on yours. Well that's just not fair.
@Yatol said:
The constructive thing to do would be to give out solutions.
Actually he's right you know - lol. People have given the devs some absolutely amazing ideas and the devs be like : nah DBD is hockey.
Killers need balance mechanisms for SWF. But that will never happen because the people who play this game would riot if you suggest any changes to SWF.
The plan for years was : buff solo survivor so they have info like a SWF. Well that's mission accomplished. The next step was : buff killers. That step probably won't happen.
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@BloodBird said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3426958#Comment_3426958
I've noticed something about the DBD community, they are very single minded when it comes to "winning" and "strenght". All the time they compare every killer to "nurse or blight" because those killers can win, quickly and effectively.
Have you ever considered that Wraith can be as effective at winning as a nurse or blight but the only difference is, his playstyle does not allow him to do it quickly?
When i win, it's almost always during final gen, but that's because I'm purposefully setting up the entire map to my design. I'm meticulously remove all good pallet and all good loops and trying to move people towards 3 gen. Even if they don't by the time they get to that point in the game, my build is at its absolute strongest. No pallets, max stacks of STBFL, it's when I go in for the kills.
Like not everything in this game can be compared to two killers with a single quick and aggressive playstyle. Other killers have other ways of being played that are just as effective, it doesn't mean it isn't strong if it isn't the "same".
-"Have you ever considered that Wraith can be as effective at winning as a nurse or blight but the only difference is, his playstyle does not allow him to do it quickly?"
Have you considered that you're wrong? Watch the streamers who play this game professionally as their job. Two immediately come to mind who have between them almost 20,000 hours of experience. Against someone who is an incredibly good looper you cannot get certain players at certain tiles. It's really that simple. If they can't do it "quickly or easily" then you probably can't either unless you are some 2,000 hour secret wraith champion.
But let's be brutally honest as well : The best wraith in the world is going to lose in a tournament against just mediocre Blight or Nurse players. The best nurse/blight players in the world could probably go afk for 20 seconds and end the game better than the wraith.
-"I'm meticulously remove all good pallet and all good loops and trying to move people towards 3 gen."
Tell me things I have not been doing since 2016? You cannot force pallets faster than a good looper wants to give them to you.
Also let's take a look back at a time when Wraith was better than he his now. This is a time when wraith had a super lunge out of cloak which was removed from the game.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6p4OtdwOy0This is someone who has played wraith since 2016 and absolutely loved the character.
Look how easily wraith is shut down by SWF. Blight or Nurse in this situation could handle that team.
The bottom line is : wraith is not a competitive killer. What are his assets?
- Enhanced movement while cloaked - but he cant attack so the move speed is of questionable value when compared to killers that can attack directly out of their movement.
- Stealth - which does nothing vs SWF and does very little in general thanks to the HUD telling everyone when someone is in a chase.
- Limited addons that can do a few things like find people hiding or monitor gen progress. Fundamentally speaking he is an M1 killer and you can't change that aspect of his kit. Even super fast pallet breaking addons just dont work.
- Wraith has the M1 limitation so any time a god pallet is thrown the chase is over until the pallet is broken.
Compare that to Nurse /Blight
- Enhanced movement speed that can be used immediately to attack.
- Strong Anti loop (vs none for the wraith)
- High lethality because fast movement+strong anti loop.
- They have limited 4v1 potential because they can end chases so quickly unlike almost every other killer in the game.
The Wraith which might as well be a rock and Nurse/Blight is an Ak-47. Which do you want to use to kill survivors with? You make the call. You could become the best wraith in the world and you'll be stuck in a place where a mediocre Nurse/Blight does things seemingly effortlessly that you will never do because you chose the wrong killer platform.
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@Sava18 said:
He is weak, one screenshot means nothing. At the very least, he isn't strong. If wraith can be considered strong than killer is just straight up broken as a role.
Wraith has many tiles in the game where he is powerless against a good survivor. It's really that simple.
Take the same two players and swap out Nurse or Blight and you have a completely different result where the Survivor is at the mercy of the killer instead.
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@KenwanObinobi said:
Crazy how 9 games out of 10 is against a camper/tunneler, the last patch has definitely changed the yway the killers are playing.
It is unbearable.
Compared to last patch killers lost the ability to contest generators. For sure I could hold 3 gens on most of the maps for a very long time. If I delayed the game 90-120 seconds or longer with my single slow down perk then I won.
But they gave my perk a 75% nerf without touching gen rush perks. So now I largely ignore gens and instead guard the survivors. I play to kill to people and "win" when the survivors mess up and I get three kills or four if they really mess up.
@Rovend said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3418366#Comment_3418366
Survivors just got their strongest healing perk nuked, their best exhaustion perk hard restricted to 2 uses while keeping all its previous restrictions and their strongest item heavy nerfed with all its addons tone down.
We'll make it is stil super strong so no that's not true sorry. DH was nerfed pretty hard but in the right hands it still saves a ton of time - meanwile 100% of the gen regression perks do less than they did last patch. What about Pain Res? Well 25% only four times seems nice until you realize you could keep chain hooking people for 15% and make it effective about 8-9 times.
Doing some simple math you'll see that -100% is not as good as -135% progress. Also having it fewer times means you get nothing for tunneling one person out. The problem there is that tunneling is required vs good players.
When was the last time as a survivor that you got all gens to 33% before ever getting one generator to 66% progress? That never happened because it would be massively inefficient to do so.
Why would you ask the killer to play inefficiently - so you could have fun at their expense.
@Deathstroke said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3419762#Comment_3419762
Most people don't have 3-4K hours in the game. My point is killers tunnel even when they play agains't babies so tunneling in many cases got nothing to do with survivors being too good. Many play soloQ so that scenario is even very likely and killers can check people profiles who they play agains't to identifyi the "weak link" by seeing who has the least hours.
Tell that to the profiles of the people I have to play against thanks to MMR. I dont look at profiles to find the "Weak link" because some people smurf. I look at profiles to screen lobbies so I dont play against 3-4 man SWF.
@miniwengsel said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3417694#Comment_3417694
Did you have noticed, that the killer meta got nuked and the survivors just lost one perk
Imagine if survivors had a "side quest" they were required to do after completing one generator before doing the next generator.
No that's not a thing - they just go from one gen to the next.
I had to relearn how to play the game and I've been playing since 2016. Gen regression was vital for killer for 2-3 years and now it's irrelevant. Oh ok.
That would be like if we had the change proposed 2-3 years ago where survivors could heal twice and never again no matter what. That didnt happen because : "survivors didnt like it."
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@Orthane said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3426675#Comment_3426675
I actually have had the reverse effect. I play mostly killer, split about 80-20 but I did get to iri 4 as Survivor and this is also my first month of playing the game. Winning as Survivor seems to happen a lot for me. Maybe it's because I just hug gens all game and never really do much else. Of course I'll heal someone if I can or unhook when the killer is chasing someone else, but for the most part I just do gens and totems because even though I play a ton of killer so I should know how to loop through being looped constantly I just suck ass at chase as Survivor. But I end up escaping a lot because you have 1-2 good players who can manage to get the killer onto them and you sort of just auto win as long as you do gens. This is also my experience as killer, and I've learned when there's a good Survivor to just ignore them and go for other people because if there's someone who's super good at chase you will just lose if you go for them.
Killer games on the other hand are constantly a struggle. Sometimes I'll get a game where I can actually just chill and have fun, but often I'm bitching and moaning about how it's been 1 minute and I just barely got my first hook and now 2 gens are done, or getting extremely annoyed at players just running in the same circles over and over and over again. Going to shack over and over, using the vault windows in Haddonfield and Garden of Joy over and over. Funnily one of the few maps I actually seem to win quite a bit as killer and where I do have the most fun is Ormond, even though people say that map is survivor sided. Then on a map like Silent Hill where people say is killer sided I struggle to even get a kill even if I'm sweating and going super try hard and it's always a struggle for me.
"Killer games on the other hand are constantly a struggle."
Most of the content creators who play both sides well say that all the time. They say you can chill and listen to music when you play survivor - but not killer.
"Funnily one of the few maps I actually seem to win quite a bit as killer and where I do have the most fun is Ormond, even though people say that map is survivor sided. Then on a map like Silent Hill where people say is killer sided I struggle to even get a kill even if I'm sweating and going super try hard and it's always a struggle for me."
Ormond has different loops so the newer survivors you are playing against dont know how to run those tiles compared to the "Standard" ones.
You are likely struggling on Mid because you don't have "game sense" yet. This takes a long time to develop the feeling that someone is still here but you are not sure where. But if you look for a moment : ah ha - there they are. This is a map also where Shift+W is very strong and you need to understand the map a little better to know from what side to attack to prevent survivors using the map well against you.
As an example : the upstairs loop over the courtyard has a drop that if the killer chases you anti-clockwise then it gives the survivor quite a bit of space. Try the same thing going clockwise and it's not worth vaulting.
You basically need to do your homework and understand the tiles better.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3426571#Comment_3426571
This is not the first month I got iri1 on killer. Considering soft cap exists, we do get same survivors (as supaalf and lilithomen and onepumpwillie)...
Also. I do get such hopeless games from time to time. But most killer games are chill (at least to me), while as survivor you will loose good chunk of your games even if you play picture-perfect (provided you don't have good 3 teammates at ready). Now considering you also loose some when it is your fault, survivor is just too hard and I prefer chill killer experience...
But most killer games are chill (at least to me), while as survivor you will loose good chunk of your games even if you play picture-perfect (provided you don't have good 3 teammates at ready). Now considering you also loose some when it is your fault, survivor is just too hard and I prefer chill killer experience...
Most of the streamers who play DBD would not call the killer experience chill. Those who do play Nurse or Blight with very strong addons and yea those two killers do have chill games.
But you won't be seeing Doctor, Pig or Trapper ever get picked over Nurse or Blight in a Tournament. And that really is the problem in that It's a completely different game when you are playing one of the two killers that has a complete kit and when you play anything else.
Depending on how far down the list you are playing it can be completely miserable.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3426234#Comment_3426234
There are 1 or 2 god pallets in most maps. Sure you need to break them when they are thrown. You also need to break some extremely good pallets too (provided your killer's ability can't play around it). But huge number of pallets can be played around and some pallets are even better left unbroken (so there's a temptation/chance survivor will decide to play it).
Maps are a big factor, but there are no maps in this game that are autowin for one side. This is true for cowshed, garden of joy, midwitch and saloon.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3426227#Comment_3426227
Interesting. And I swapped to killer from survivor (talking spent time in game - iri1 as killer for 10 days now while gold 2 on survivor), because I am fed up with how hard it is to play survivor if you don't have very good 4-man at ready... I can enjoy my strictly no camp/chase Bubba and still win more then I loose. While you can super tryhard on survivor and have perfect games with 0 mistakes and still get heavily screwed...
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3426239#Comment_3426239
Camping and tunneling as killer player is ok. It's problem for the game (not engaging thing to 3/4 survivors, and feels unfair to 4th) and it should be addressed by devs (sole reason being, that meta should be things that engage + are fun for everyone involved. If best thing to do is staying on a single spot, looking at unmooving target and gaving hands outside of keyboard+mouse/joystick, then the game has clearly some problem).
It's stupid to ask killers to not play like that. But it would be good move, if those tactics were (usually - it doesn't even need to be always worse thing) worse then some alternative (yes there should be viable alternative) and that alternative should be engaging for everyone.
I swapped to killer from survivor (talking spent time in game - iri1 as killer for 10 days now while gold 2 on survivor), because I am fed up with how hard it is to play survivor if you don't have very good 4-man at ready... I can enjoy my strictly no camp/chase Bubba and still win more then I loose. While you can super tryhard on survivor and have perfect games with 0 mistakes and still get heavily screwed...
The thing is you're in the "baby bracket" if you're playing like that. If I sat you down on my account you would play every game vs the tryhardiest survivors and probably say "huh" at the very least.
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@ThePolice said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3402892#Comment_3402892
what if the legion doesn’t have iri button?
Then he is pretty powerless against god loops. He has to break a pallet when thrown and loses all momentum mid chase.
Play a game without Iri button on the game vs your friends and then do the same with Iri button.
You might not remember but on release Blight did not break pallets with his power. He was incredibly weak and in my opinion was worse than clown (due to clown having pinky finger un nerfed at the time).
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3425725#Comment_3425725
So you are complaining that if the whole enemy team is better then you, then you should still win somehow? Why? How is that fair? Also you can still create deadzones and no matter how good said survivor is - he will still go down. If there are no resources to loop around, then even best player in DBD will just die.
-"So you are complaining that if the whole enemy team is better then you, then you should still win somehow? Why? How is that fair?"
Funny you should say that but because of the extremely generous map designs and game mechanics of things like "shift W" most of the killer roster requires you to be massively better at the killer role than they are at survivor just to be on even footing.
Nurse and Blight are skill based. If you play well you crush people who do not loop perfectly. Most of the other killers usually end up in situations where they are literally powerless. Say you're Pig on "the game" and someone throws a god pallet. That means the chase is "over" unless you stop to break the pallet at most loops.
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@DyingWish92 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/375111/gen-rushing-is-a-huge-problem
Because this is the #1 problem in the game and always has been, gen rush. Which in turn causes the #2, #3 issues camping and tunneling. If I lose 3 or 4 gens for 1 hook why the hell would I leave the hook and go for more chases lmao.
Adding MMR to the game only made it worse.
Removing viable gen regression perks only made it worse.
Then because everyone knows the gens will always eventually get powered the survivors all use adrenaline - making it once again worse.
How did we get all the gen regression perks nerfed to oblivion without Gen Rush perks getting the same treatment? I really don't get it from a "balance" perspective. It makes sense from a - let's make the larger audience side happy so we make more money.
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@Clockwork_Enigma said:
This is an inarguable truth. He is the worst offender when it comes to making games miserable for just about any player. God forbid you want to play the damn match when he comes into the game with Iron Grasp, Agitation and Insidious, because you're not going to have a good time.
And even if you want to play Leatherface like a human being with an actual modicum of decency, you'll still get Survivors who will assume you're going to be camping them and then THEY will not be giving you a good time.
Leatherface needs the following nerfs to punish players for playing in a way that loses the spirit of the game:
- Nerf: The Cannibal can no longer put Survivors into the Dying State when within 12 meters of a hooked Survivor.
- Nerf: The Cannibal can no longer hit the same Survivor twice when within 12 meters of a hooked Survivor.
- Nerf: The Cannibal will automatically stop sweeping and lose all Tokens if they hit a Survivor attempting to rescue their teammate.
- Nerf: These functions will persist for 15 seconds if The Cannibal was within the allotted range while a Survivor was unhooked.
- Quality of Life: These functions will NOT occur if The Cannibal activates chase while both he and the other Survivor are not within 12 meters of the hook.
This sounds extremely harsh, it is, but it is quite literally the most effective way to de-incentivize the camping aspect of Leatherface and incentivize actually playing the game. No other solution would bring the sledgehammer down on this character's camping abilities harder or more efficiently.
You know I proposed a way to fix this ages ago....Make the hook poles have collision for his chainsaw.
If a LF camps you just run around the hook pole and he will tantrum.
The fix they should have done for billy was make the overheat only be a thing if you are within 16m of a survivor on the hook.
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@Krazzik said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3426170#Comment_3426170
People say this literally all the time. Whenever a new patch is out, whenever a new meta forms, whenever a new event is released, tunnelling and camping are more prevalent than ever.
No it's been a hard trend over the last year; ever since we had the declaration "DBD is hockey" we have been going down a dark road.
Most people are not enjoying MMR as it forces everyone to be "tryhard". The heal nerf meta was good for the game but the gen regression nerf without touching gen rushing was absurd.
Otz had a video out about 8 months ago where he showed that medkits were ridiculous. To their credit the devs have made medkits "ok" and not a crazy broken item. The same video however also showed that toolboxes needed the same treatment.
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@johnlikesguns2 said:
So i took a break from this game(around a month). Before the mid chapter update, later i return, i play a few survivor matches and it's crawling with campers. I would imagine it would be cause of the slowdown nerfs. This is not fun, the mid chapter was a failure, and now what once was a good game, is only dying. Either BHVR does another big and good balance update along with a good chapter. Cause i'm telling y'all and mark my words. At this rhythm and if the next chapter is bad. This game will be dead very very soon.
I enjoy playing killer unlike most people.
The last patch took the ability away for me to regress/guard generators. But the survivors can still gen rush because those perks and toolboxes were untouched.
Every game now I start by going for a tie. I will never let someone "off the hook" so to speak. Once I have hooked them they are marked for death. The only exception is when I get a map that is incredibly punishing. Yesterday I had a suffocation pit match with 4 gens all on main side. So I actually let them hook cycle a bit - in part to camp the person with reassurance. I had a hill hook in the corner next to two generators and the one in front of main was close too.
I stopped playing for the win and just play for the tie so every game is light camping/ hard tunnel.
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@Mechanix82 said:
So I would consider myself a survivor main. I play both sides but i normally only play killer to get them to iri 1 for the blood points and then I go back to survivor. I got to say Survivors are getting really bad on what they consider "Boring". So first it was the Ruin/Undying, then Scourge Hook/Deadmans, then the infamous Gen Kick builds all boring. So i was playing killer a few days ago and I was running no slow down just Agitation, Starstruck, No where to hide, lethal. A little aura read with a very high risk high reward starstruck. 3 different teams I went against called me meta and its a boring playstyle that shouldn't be in the game. So my question is exactly what perks are a fun combination killers can use that survivors do not call "Boring" these days?
" So my question is exactly what perks are a fun combination killers can use that survivors do not call "Boring" these days?"
Fun perks are almost never Meta because they are "fun". Effective perks become Meta because they actually help you win games : like CoB+OC before both basically got deleted from the game.