DBDVulture
DBDVulture
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@BlueHorkew said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3362444#Comment_3362444
But Deja vu is a nice perk, not S tier or crazy strong but its nice.
Pop was nerfed to hard, but now you are complaining about some of the best killer perks like jolt being bad.
You literally are considering every perk that isn't oppressive or game changing as bad. No wonder you all think killer sucks, you don't even seem to value your stuff.
Also hexes being buffed to boon levels, what boons do you see besides CoH. Boons are basically a killer perk besides CoH, survivors hate bringing them. And i am not even saying that CoH is ok. But saying boons are OP compared to Hexes?
Survivors have 16 perk slots while killers have 4, i see way more hexes than boons. How are boons better than Hexes, besides CoH.
CoH is OP, boons are a weak and a waste of time for survivors
-"But Deja vu is a nice perk"
No it isn't. There is no survivor main like JRM saying: bro you need to get on Deja Vu right now at top tier MMR. We can look at how often the perk gets used and it's probably sitting somewhere between 1-4% or less.
DV is a training wheels perk. It has a purpose that can help new players. Windows does the same thing but Windows also helps a top tier survivor loop more efficiently.
-"Pop was nerfed to hard, but now you are complaining about some of the best killer perks like jolt being bad."
Jolt would be fine if the killer had 1:1 regression with a survivor after the generator starts regressing. If you explain this game to an intelligent person this is usually one of the things that comes up. There are four survivors working at 1.0 and the killer has 0.25 regression. In other words the ability to finish gens is 16x greater than the killer's ability to undo them.
Meanwhile safe pallets and DH can make a chase last over a minute. Three people working for one minute = three minutes of progress. This is why the killer is expected to lose two gens in the first chase. If you trade a generator for a hook every chase after that the game is quickly over for the killer.
"-I am not even saying that CoH is ok. But saying boons are OP compared to Hexes?"
-"How are boons better than Hexes, besides CoH."
Compare NOED from 2016 to noed in 2023. Compare map design from the same points. What was NOED supposed to do? NOED was designed as a "revenge" factor for the killer. The 2016 version was :you were hard to get before the end game but now here's my revenge with never ending NOED with 9% speed that cannot be removed. In 2023 we have survivors that are nearly as hard to catch as in 2016 but the perk is useless except in very specific situations.
I never ever use hexes. Unless you have just the right kilelr (like demo with whistle) you can't defend them and that is the design.
Boons however are designed so you can't really destroy them - this is foolish.
Boons should be as easy to destroy as hexes. If boons can be renewed then hexes should work the same way.
I would use hexes if they required survivors to break all 5 bones to prevent their use. That's not how it works so they are trash.
-"CoH is OP, boons are a weak and a waste of time for survivors"
Watch the very best killer streamers play DBD. When they lose its usually a combination of 3/4 man SWF+boons+strong items. This is a recipe we see over and over and over.
You have no idea how the game plays out vs good players if this is what you think.
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@BlueHorkew said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3362379#Comment_3362379
Funny you saying eruption encouraged chases. Because killers with eruption were all more likely to drop chases all the time to protect their 3 gens.
Pop encouraged chases and progressing the game.
Eruption was an overpowered stalling tool.
Pop and jolt encourage chases and progressing the game.
And the fact that everyone is ready to call a 10% regression + 12 sec aura reveal a worthless perk, just shows how much you all just rely on game delay instead of actually making plays. Safety nets are nice like that
-"And the fact that everyone is ready to call a 10% regression + 12 sec aura reveal a worthless perk, just shows how much you all just rely on game delay instead of actually making plays."
I expect you to laugh in my face if I said deja vu was a good perk and you should use it. There is no way I can get any value out of the rework of the eruption perk (which originally was going to be 10% regression of current progress).
The current version of the perk gives forces a survivor to stop working on a generator and keeps them from doing anything for 25 seconds. The rework should have just made the generator regress for 30 seconds and nobody can work on the affected generators.
You just pressure a different generator (said in the same tone I imagine everyone saying : you just bait the DH).
I almost never use eruption. But the majority of people I play against use DH.
-"Pop and jolt encourage chases and progressing the game."
Pop is beyond dead and almost nobody is using it because most of the time you're getting 5 seconds of regression or less (when you factor in how long it takes to kick the generator). This perk used to give you 20 seconds every time you used it. Would anyone still use Sprint Burst if instead of getting 150% speed for 3 seconds you only get a speed burst for 0.75 seconds? I think not.
For Jolt to be a valuable perk it needs to apply any kick perk you have (that does not require a cooldown) to the effective generator. Actually let's talk about regression speeds. Killer regression without a kick perk should be equal to a single survivor if four people are alive. The fact that it is not is a reflection of poor design and shows just how out of touch the developers are with their game. Whenever anyone dies just cut the regression by half. That means with 3 people alive it would be double the current speed and with 4 people alive it would be four times faster than the current speed.
Jolt does literally nothing if :
- the map is large
- The survivors run early because they are in a SWF or they are paying attention to the hud and the terror radius. Shift W is a huge contributing factor as to why why there are only 2 viable killers in the game.
If CoH got a nerf on the level that Eruption was getting then killers would be destroying any boon with no perk just by kicking it. Likewise if hex perks were buffed to boon levels then they could be rekindled indefinitely and instantly (just like a pentimento interaction) unless every dull totem on the map had already been broken.
Boons would be balanced if you had people desperately cleansing totems all the time for fear of the killer always using Blood Favour. And that's exactly what would happen if that change went live. Overnight every killer would be using Blood Favour because it would be reactivated over and over again until every boon on the map had been destroyed.
@HoodedWildKard said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/366799/dead-hard-again
Baiting DH out requires literally one second. A killer wise to DH won't get burned by it.
Idk why people keep claiming this perk is broken. It's abused by high mmr players but so are loops, flashlights, bodyblocking and sabotage plays.
Even a prestige 100 players can't get an easy dead hard if killer counterplays it and I'd know because I bait it out all the time when I play killer and I frequently thrash players with much more experience than me. Sure it's punishing when you get caught out, and they can occasionally force catch 22s on the odd pallet but the timing required is insanely tight. At the end of the day it's a skill issue. Not a broken perk.
-"Baiting DH out requires literally one second. A killer wise to DH won't get burned by it."
If you're at a pallet and you have DH then I can't counter any play you make. That's broken.
You can also watch killers like Otz wait 3-5 seconds against very good players and they still have not used the DH. You're spouting some false rhetoric that is only viable when survivors do not play the game well.
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@BlueHorkew said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3362217#Comment_3362217
And yet eruption got to keep its regression and got the incapacitated reworked into an aura perk
While you want to put 5 restrictions on a single perk?
You could simply put the survivor unable to do actions for 2 seconds after a DH if the survivor fails to take a hit and it would solve the, this perk is uncouterable at pallets issue.
But, that is not enough, because killing a perk is better.
And then people complain that bhvr kills perks when doing balance changes, this is the type of feedback they get.
Pop got ruined by the perk rework. Eruption will be completely worthless after the change.
It should have been changed to : Kicking the gen applies your kick perks again when a survivor goes down. When the gen erupts it cannot be interacted with for 30 seconds. The survivor can either wait out the timer or go do a different generator.
Eruption is a healthy perk for the game that encourages chases. Pop did the same thing.
Meanwhile the most overpowered survivor chase perk got a buff that made it stronger for the best players (but worse for the average joe).
Also as it has already been stated - I said pick one.
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@BlueHorkew said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/366799/dead-hard-again
Deal with it and bait it. You use SB, good, you use the superior exhaustion perk.
Does killer fun even matter for a survivor perk. New killers don't care about the survivor's fun or counter play, so why should that be a priority also.
And maybe if a chase gets extended by "at least 1 minute" for a DH, than maybe that is your skill issue and not the perk
But i guess spamming the forums with constant DH forums will eventually work.
Man, i will feel kinda sorry for M1 killers if DH gets the bhvr delete button, i don't think you know how much you benefit from survivors not having SB against you especially.
DH provides more than every other exhaustion perk. That's why the best players use it.
Dead hard will always be a broken perk if it allows for three health states. It needs to have some negative to cut down its usefulness to make you "lose" the time you gained in a chase. This could be any one of the following :
- You become broken for the rest of the match after using DH once.
- All healing actions on you take 100% longer for the rest of the game b/c you have DH.
- DH can be used once per game
- DH gives an endurance effect but offers no movement speed
- You become unable to vault or drop a pallet for 10 seconds after using DH.
I could just say to you : do a different generator if you are worried about eruption.
DH is the one perk that completely changed how every killer must play around every time they go to attack a survivor.
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@shalo said:
Winning matches with 1 killer raises MMR for all other killers
BHVR answer : Even if this is the case
"Even if"? Why are you not willing to say how Killer MMR is calculated? What's the big secret?
There is no secret. The first time you eve get a killer to 1600 MMR will raise all your other killers to 1200 MMR. We know this because of Choy's conversations with "less than legit" players.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3360889#Comment_3360889
To piggyback off of this, a few things:
1. The notion that showing MMR would lead to elitism is ridiculous to me. We already have that with imagined numbers. Someone can close their eyes and click on 5 forum posts. 3 of those will contain multiple posters saying "you must be low MMR" or "this is how it is at high MMR". The "problem" they're trying to prevent already exists.
2. We can't provide accurate feedback about something when we can't tell you what's wrong with it. You've released a system that people were unhappy with, tweaked it behind the scenes based on vague feedback, and people are still largely unhappy with it. "The match felt bad" tells you nothing. There is no actionable item based on that feedback. Same thing with "The match was too hard". Why? Why was it hard? We really can't tell you because you won't show us what's going on.
3. Someone is eventually going to release a tool to show player MMR. It has happened in every game that hides it. And the reasons for hiding it are pretty weak in the first place. What I can confidently say is that people are on the right track when they speculate about just how bad and random the matchmaking is with outliers, and I suspect that's why BHVR is insistent on hiding it in the first place. Matchmaking doesn't gradually widen if nobody is within range. It essentially gives up altogether.
-"Someone is eventually going to release a tool to show player MMR"
Hackers have such a tool. We know about some of the game limitations and the MMR cut off points because of their discussions with Choy.
-"We can't provide accurate feedback about something when we can't tell you what's wrong with it"
Otz will be the first to tell you that the devs don't really seem to listen to any of the fog whisperers. Even if we could give them good feedback I do not think they would really mind what we have to say.
@Kius said:
Devs dont want to use mmr numbers as bullet for elitism/toxic behavior but they are killing their own game like this. Players have tools such as hidden profile to avoid toxic people and complete hide the endgame chat or simply just press continue when the game finishes.
Mmr did more harm than right at least for killers.. you can't put killer players that are trying to LEARN a new killer with very high level survivors because nobody wants to deal with players that are playing as if their lifes depend on it or for a $10 gift card just to later on complain that the killer used the tools they have to win the video game.. come on.
The entire "we dont want players to use their mmr number as bullet for toxic behavior" is flawed and makes little sense when the game is currently in a very unhealthy and unfun state due to mmr and lack of constant balance. And players arent to blame here they are using the tools dev's are giving to them.
"Mmr did more harm than right at least for killers.. you can't put killer players that are trying to LEARN a new killer with very high level survivors"
That's pretty much exactly what I said before.
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@Brokenbones said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3360998#Comment_3360998
Do you not think it's more likely that after playing the game for so long you're just bored of it
The only reason DBD survived with all of the massive glaring flaws it had back then was because people hadn't fully figured them out. By the time the game had gained a decent following, people had figured out how to do all that and it was common place for people who weren't brand new
As much criticism as I give the developers, at least now they understand that stuff like looping is a core part of the experience now and they balance around it; for better or worse.
-"Do you not think it's more likely that after playing the game for so long you're just bored of it"
I think I know my own mind. I enjoy the game more as an idea than a reality. The game has devolved at high levels of play to gen and survivor tunneling. It makes for very try hard games that are not fun.
The MMR system makes the game less fun.
The hud showing gen progress was a massive buff for survivors (one that is not necessary).
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@Brokenbones said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3360983#Comment_3360983
It is objective fact that the Killer experience is better now then it was many years ago though
Like there's no disputing it, it's a fact.
In some ways yes, in others no.
Shelter woods in 2016 was more fun then than Shelter woods is now in 2023. There is a reason that map had a 76% kill rate. It was hide or die and was the only map with no infinite loops (after the first month when they closed one shack window).
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3360822#Comment_3360822
Maybe you should not instantly attack people for daring to have a different opinion than you. If you had actually bothered to read instead of having a knee-jerk reaction, you'd see that I didn't advocate for any balance changes.
Killer is easier in 2023 than it was in 2016. You can have your rose-tinted glasses, but the rest of us live in reality.
Shelter woods in 2016 vs shelter woods in 2023 says otherwise.
If you want to make it worse we can both play Billy.
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@Seraphor said:
Reminder: No it didn't.
The old rank match making was no better, and for some, including myself, it was much worse.
Take off the rose-tinted glasses.
DBD was the most fun for me when it was completely random assortment. Every month was a complete rank reset and a fresh slate. If you were good you won a lot. If you were bad I imagine you lost a lot. If you had been away from the game for a while you went back to "baby" ranks so you could relearn everything from the ground up if necessary.
The current MMR system feels like a struggle. You run faster and harder to get ahead only to stay in exactly the same place.
It is 100% a worse feeling to play DBD in 2023 compared to say 2016, 2018, and 2021-2022.
You can lose 20 games in a row and nothing changes. You're still in roughly the exact same place and it sucks.
@Peanits said:
I'm not going to try and convince you that one system is better than the other. That's ultimately up to you to decide, nobody can tell you how you feel.
HOWEVER, I will fact check those key points.
- The softcap is not easy to hit. We've stated many times that the distribution of players across MMR looks like a bell curve. There's very few people on the extreme low end, a lot near and around the middle, and then very few people on the extreme high end. There aren't many people at or above the softcap. Many people will claim to be there, but this is almost always incorrect. By comparison, it was much easier for people of all skill levels to hit rank 1 under the old system so long as they played enough each month.
- This isn't really the case. The matchmaker starts off very specific and gradually broadens its range the longer you wait for a match. The overwhelming majority of the time you'll be paired against people within a few points of your own rating. Folks who are at one of the extreme ends of the spectrum and playing during off-peak times for their region may have more variance between matches, but there's only so much a matchmaker can do (it can only work with what its got).
- Even if this is the case, the old system did not have any separation between Killers, your rank was shared between all Killers. I would hesitate to say that having some separation is worse than none at all.
- The system exists in a void. You never see it. You aren't rewarded for increasing it. You aren't punished for losing it. It is solely a hidden number to help find you opponents that are similarly skilled. If you decide to play more competitively to increase a number that you'll never see, that's totally fine and you can do so, but the system certainly is not encouraging it anymore than the old system which was actually shown to your before and after every match.
Again, not going to convince you that you should like one more than the other. Everyone wants something different out of matchmaking and nobody's really wrong.
-"The softcap is not easy to hit"
Show us our MMR ratings if we want to see them. Let me be clear here : I am not accusing you or any of the BHVR staff of lying but I have played other games where the staff of that game did in fact lie to the audience. If you show me all the numbers then I can find the truth for myself. There is no chance for deception as everything is right before my eyes. Since you don't want to give me details I can only assume that you are hiding something. What do you have to hide? Show us our numbers if we want to see them. I think you hide MMR for two reasons
- Forum bragging / forum invalidation. People would say things like : I have 2000 MMR so I am right and you have 800 MMR so you know nothing. If this sounds ridiculous it is and the community would not stand for it.
- DBD puts people that should not be playing together way more often than is healthy because it makes for "fast games". Overall the MMR system is designed so that it punishes people who are good but not amazing.
Also I have to disagree about the softcap being easy to hit. Then again I have been playing this game for 6 years so I am in the minority.
-"Even if this is the case, the old system did not have any separation between Killers"
The current system is flawed because if I am above an invisible number I cannot see then all of my killers are set to a higher invisible minimum level where I can never really have appropriate level matches to learn a new killer. Maybe I want to learn Hag? But I can't ever really do that because I will never have time to build fundamental skills against new players who are appropriate matches for having zero knowledge of Hag.
Learning against an opponent requires a minimum specific distance. If the difference in skill is too great there is no opporunity to learn anything. You just get crushed no matter what you try. The current system needs to change. All killers should have a completely independent MMR that is set slowly over time by winning from the base invisible number. Since all MMR is interlinked all killer MMR over the invsible 1200 ranking should be reset to the initial rating.
By the way : we know the cut off points because the hackers tell us what they are. Do you see how disingenuous that feels? We can only learn the truth by listening to cheaters that are telling us the rules you hide from us.
-"The system exists in a void. You never see it."
The problem is that the players feel it. Matching making in DBD feels terrible. Do you know how ridiculous it would be for people with a 1200 Elo in chess to play people with a 1600 Elo? DBD says whatever 1600 is the same as 2000 - yolo.
That is completely ridiculous. The magic cut off number of 1600 is too low.
The system is designed to favor speed over accurate matches once we hit 1600 MMR. This makes the game feel completely gross to play over that number.
I'd like to issue you and the entire DBD staff a challenge. Give everyone at BHVR an account "zapped" with 2400-3000 MMR. See how much fun it is to play at the upper end of the MMR spectrum. Spoiler alert : it sucks.
Rules for the challenge
- You must use addons/items with equal frequency. In other words you can't play pinky finger clown a second time until you have played through all the other addons (or played a game "skipping" some playing with none).
- You may not play Blight or Nurse as these killers have such a massive advantage over every other killer.
- Play games for both killer and survivor. It doesn't need to be 50/50 but give each a fair number of games (lets say 10-20 minimum over the month).
- You can use whatever perks you wan - go wild. Pro tip: you'll want to use meta perks.
- Get good - or you will suffer during this "event". But acrually that's the point - DBD at high MMR is an incredibly fun experience that makes me not want to play even though I really love the game. In short the game is ruined because I have to play a certain way because of my MMR.
-"The matchmaker starts...."
The matchmaking in DBD feels bad. We can't really know for sure because we can't see after the fact if the Blight we were playing against was +200 MMR or -200 MMR. You hide this information from us in what I feel is an attempt to hide at just how bad/inaccurate the Match making system actually is for some players.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3360513#Comment_3360513
Oh, no, I was replying to you calling me a Survivor main attempting to spread disinformation. I found that to be both amusing and very sad, as it shows you need to resort to ad hominin attacks rather than actually bolstering your argument. It is interesting to me that you and @ProfessorDunwich tried the same thing on the same day.
I never said tunneling wasn't a good or efficient strategy. In fact, I explicitly said that it was necessary if Survivors have decided to be optimal. You certainly can't expect to win against optimal players if you aren't also playing optimally.
The simple fact of the matter is this: most players are not good. You do not need to tunnel every game. However, tunneling is easy. It's simple, efficient and is difficult to counter. Players will always optimize the fun out of games, be they Survivor or Killer, and tunneling's prevalence is simply more proof of that.
-"calling me a Survivor main attempting to spread disinformation"
The way you were speaking it sounded just like that. Maybe you should be more careful how you say what you say - especially if you agree with my points. When I brought it up it was not to say : you're a survivor therefore nothing you have to say is valid; my intent was to say people who only have play one side really don't understand this game's nuance.
This forum and the steam discussion have always been filled with people yelling for knee jerk nerf reactions.
@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3360086#Comment_3360086
Idk.
It's just surprising to me that people think Killer isn't the best it's ever been.
-"It's just surprising to me that people think Killer isn't the best it's ever been."
You also spew nonsense like this.
In some aspects killer was more fun in ~August 2016 than it is now. Why? Pallet looping didn't exist. Pallets were insanely weak because they had a delay before you got stunned and had something like a -40% hitbox for the stun compared to now. You died on hook much faster; on top of that a lot of people tried to escape from the hook as a regular event. NOED lasted forever, gave you 9% movement speed and was not a hex.
There was a lot of bad things in 2016 but it was a more fun experience overall - not because the game was new but because the game was just different. DBD used to be mostly about hide and seek not "chase me".
You could list all the really bad things in 2016 and that would be a fair counter argument. But then I would say what about in August of 2017 when we had super bloodlust? That was way more fun to play killer than now. Dead hard didn't exist yet so playing killer was still good.
Soon after we had the era of DH, DS, BT, unbreakable and that was not very fun to play against as killer.
Let me guess- like most people you didn't play DBD during either of those eras?
Read for yourself how strong old bloodlust was :
19 votes and 66 comments so far on RedditNotice that the decay was in no way tied to kicking a pallet so you could pallet break and then keep your BL.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3360363#Comment_3360363
Hmmm, how unfortunate.
To be honest, I'm rather disappointed that @DBDVulture hasn't responded to me yet :(
You didn't make any meaningful reply to any point I made. All you said was :
"you don't have any good arguments"
Tunneling is efficient gameplay for both sides. This is why survivors will take a hit when a gen is at 99% progress so they can finish while the killer is in the recovery animation. That type of play makes for very bad vibes - but it wins. The error in your thought process is that it is only a problem when a killer tunnels.
What does a survivor get for finishing a generator? You get 1/5 of your objective done. What do you get for one hook on a survivor? Nothing. What do you get for one hook on three survivors? You get nothing. What do you get for hooking one person three times? You get a kill.
Listen to what the big streamers say who play both sides. They say : the survivor sets the pace for the game. They are either chill or they blast gens.
Regardless of what you say you are - you have a disillusioned view on balance.
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@Pulsar said:
Tunneling is the meta not because it's necessary but rather because it's easy and effective.
In extreme examples like Otz or in comp, yes, you will need to tunnel since Survivors there will be extremely optimal, therefore, you must be too.
In most of our regular pub matches though, it's not required, it's just the easiest and most reliable way to win quickly.
-"Tunneling is the meta not because it's necessary but rather because it's easy and effective."
When was the last time you played as survivor and got all 7 gens to 33% before ever getting one to 66% progress? The answer is never because that is inefficient.
Survivors tunnel the generators when they are efficient and this forces the killer to tunnel the survivors. Make gens take longer so that they can't be "tunneled" (add base kit deadlock as a start. change the perk by the same name to make the effect last +30 seconds longer. Add rollback protection so that if two gens finish at once then one is rolled back to 99% progress and locked). Change the game so that there is a better base kit reward stronger than tunneling for not tunneling.
Otz tunnels in almost every game I have watched him play this month - if he wants to win. When a 9k hour player needs to tunnel to win you know that it is necessary.
You are a survivor main spreading misinformation. Both sides tunnel. Remove tunneling for both sides or neither. The real problem is people like you who want to tunnel gens but get mad when the Killer tunnels one person out of the game as a response.
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Maps that are smaller than 9000m² with fair loops and 1-2 god pallets tops.
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@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3358361#Comment_3358361
First, thanks for responding with this, it actually helped me see a few things I couldn't fathom. I play Trapper and survivor, so some of the DH things don't really apply since I never see them. Now, onward!
-"Dead Hard has the ability against some of the strongest killers to either force a killer to not swing during a power activation or swing and give the survivor distance with DH. The list here includes : Nurse, Spirit and Blight."
Against these killers, I'd want DH to work the best it ever has. SWF or soloQ, those three killers would stomp most teams I would argue. Remove DH, and I don't feel there's literally anything survivors could do. This is just my feeling, as Im definitely not at that MMR.
I'm learning a lot from these discussions though, and have been trying to play without DH a bit. I've ended up without an exhaustion perk a lot I've found, as none of them compare to the power and safe feels I get from the powerful E perk. So maybe DH is too strong. But until those killers get some attention, (Primarily nurse. Again, I find Blight is ehhhh and Spirit I find fun, but better than Blight.) i wouldn't want it changed. When I get up there to face all these nurses and blights, I'll have a better view I suppose. I just need to stop letting them Mori me :(
-"A good player can use DH to gain an 30 seconds extra in a chase by pressing E. You use it at a pallet and the killer either swings and you hit DH or they can just throw the pallet and be safe. When combined with windows this allows you to throw a TON of pallets to prevent a down. When combined with full health this lets a survivor have three health states in a chase. These are the main problems with DH."
I can't get behind nerfing a perk because 'good players' can use it efficiently. Literally the worst reason imo. These situations you describe sound like the only way to fight against a good nurse. All other killers though? Yeah, i can agree without having that experience that DH would be super stronk there. 0.5 second windows for this perk took a lil time for me to get used to, but once I did it was awesome. I should be punished for this skill
My issue is everyone is saying DH does all this stuff at this location or this situation. My counter is it works literally once, at a pallet or not, because if the killer knows I have it because Ive used it, then getting it to work again is totally on the killer. If I get multiple pallet situations with Dh, I don't feel thats something I should feel bad about. But now I would since I know DH is hated literally for this reason.
Breaking chase and knowing when to shift priorities is also a skill in itself. I'm sure this isn't a popular view, but its what hit me as I sat here and thought about how I'd handle these situations as a silly killer that isn't Trapper. Can I have reasons this wouldn't suffice? Genuinely asking.
-"Allow me to paint a picture of how ridiculous Eruption would be if it gave as much room as Dead Hard does now.
- The killer kicks one generator at a 3 gen to activate the generator.
- The survivors successfully complete the generator breaking the 3 gen
- The killer presses "E" and the generator rolls back to an uncompleted state needing 30 seconds to repair it.
Dead Hard is broken because it allows a chase to be extended longer than any other exhaustion perk. The only counter to dead hard is hard tunneling. When you get off the hook I will punch you immediately so you can't use it."
This is the one that helped me the most to understand. Its flawed quite a bit, but I understand how people feel a bit more.
I still dont feel DH should be touched, but if it is, I'll not be complaining. Again, I'm just not affected by DH on either side like this. But understand is something I try to do. :)
-"I still dont feel DH should be touched"
Then Maybe Eruption should work the way I outlined. In a more realistic way Eruption should get gutted if DH gets gutted. If not then change eruption to be a base kit mechanic that works as follows: it takes 10% of the total completion when a survivor goes down. The kicked generators will be blocked from survivors interacting them for 30 seconds and continue to regress at speed set by the killer's kick perks.
DH is the biggest kick in the teeth to a killer. It changes the way you are forced to play because it exists.
It should never allow you to have a third health state.
It should be like Lithe or Sprint Burst where most of the time it delays a hit by 5-8 seconds.
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The MMR for DBD is pointless. Why?
There is a max MMR at ~1600. Essentially anything over that only reads as 1600. This is stupid because there is a big difference between 1600 and 2000 Elo with Chess. DBD is like nah.
They don't do proper match making because it would : feel bad as you wait for long wait times for accurate matches.
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@Wexton said:
That's it, that's the post. His add-ons are terrible, like seriously what were they thinking when they made these. Out of all of Freddy's add-ons only a couple can be considered useful, red paintbrush is the only one that's considered good. His dream pallet add-ons are pretty decent, I prefer dream pallets over snares but snares are usually the more viable option. I don't think pill bottle really does anything but I think it's cool I guess, class photo is okay although not being able to cancel your teleport is a huge downside.
Rest of Freddy's addons are straight up just horrible or useless, pretty sure Freddy has by far the worst add-ons in the game. There's not much of a point to this post I just like complaining.
Freddy had strong addons and everything good got nerfed b/c he felt oppressive.
He is the only killer in the game that can take an addon to give him a worse version of his power than he had to start with. The chainsaw limiter doesn't really count because it's the same power nerfed. Dream pallets are a complete joke.
In order for Dream pallets to be viable the game should start with like 3+ pallets removed and automatically replaced with dream pallets.
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@Xernoton said:
I just played a few matches as Nemesis. I used no perks and addons because I really want to learn how to play this killer to the absolute best. Whenever I try to learn a new killer I will play as nice as possible. I don't camp, I don't tunnel, I don't slug for longer than 10 seconds. I understand that playing like this will cost me a majority of matches and I'm fine with that.
What I don't understand is why every single team I go against has at least 1 jerk that will either dc, tell me to end myself or teabag me in the exit gate with his entire squad before telling me how bad of a killer I am. Don't get me wrong, I've somewhat gotten used to this kind of stuff and I don't care about that too much. However, I've tried to find a way to make everyone happy in the game while still having fun myself. That didn't work out.
So tell me: What do you want me to do? What does it take for survivors to not be awful?
Edit: My choice of words isn't ideal. I made it sound like it's every survivor, when it's not. There are definitely nice people also on both sides. Please note, I did not intent to make this an 'us-vs-them' discussion in any way.
-"What does it take for survivors to not be awful?"
I can't help you with this.
If you want to learn how to play Nemesis - I can teach you. Send me a private message and I will friend you in game.
A list of good things to know:
- You are basically powerless in T1 so stop being in t1 asap. Whip two different people once and you will get to T2. Apparently most survivors have no idea this is how Nemesis works. If everyone is hiding early game you can just walk around the map and whip your zombies to advance your infection meter.
- Nemesis plays better with STBFL. Punching twice is better than whipping three times. Nemesis/Demo/Pig are the only three killers that can guarantee keeping 8 stacks of STBFL. It blows my mind Otz uses STBFL on trapper but does not with Nemesis.
- Nemesis is stronger after one player dies. The zombies pressure better when there are three instead of four players. If you want to win turn every match into a 3v3 or a 3 v2 game.
- Discordance is a great info perk for Nemesis as it also helps direct his zombies to players trying to rush generators. I often use this as my only information perk because Zombies give plenty of information.
- It takes time to learn but you can whip over some things and not others. You must learn how to "drag" the whip to get easier hits. Top tier Nemesis play is getting hits around undropped pallets that make people say : WHAT!?
- If you will get nothing and the survivor can't get to a good place from a whip - then whip. Otherwise a punch is generally better than a whip unless nearly everyone is already infected. If you could get a whip over a pallet you can usually break the pallet instead by purposefully not whipping the survivor. And of course if you are using STBFL you will get a stack for doing so.
- There are no amazing Nemesis addons. Zombie walking speed is probably "best in slot" but that's like saying I would rather kiss a cow's knee rather than Jellyfish nematocysts.
- If you think someone is going to fake a vault and dodge while you have your whip out you can just let go and punch while you body block the window.
- I whip my zombies all the time when I want them to be somewhere else if I am covering a certain area with no plans to leave (like making sure someone hits stage two before I move some distance from the hook).
- Whipping someone gives them a different speed boost when compared to a normal hit. Most people are not used to the speed difference and do not use it well. Take advantage of this fact.
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@jinx3d said:
killers, perks, whatever
i would make Ghostface lose his red stain when crouching, Onryo should be able to phase through walls (or at least breakable ones/windows/pallets) when demanifested, DS stun needs to last longer, hexes either need a buff, rework, or shattered hope needs to be basekit, dh needs to prevent pallet drops/window vaults for a second or so after use
im sure i have more lol, i wanna see what the community wants. try and keep it in the realm of possibility
Michael Myers either loses the 5% speed penalty in T1 or becomes the first 120% speed killer when he reaches T2. He has no red light until he goes into T3. If a survivor is killed or disconnects the "unharvested" stalk is evenly distributed to the other alive players. Re-enable the ability to stalk more than one survivor at a time (thus greatly enhancing the rate at which he can tier up).
Dead hard should make all healing actions on you take 100% longer (including mending). This would 'mitigate' the third health state and encourage you to play the game hurt -most likely with resilience.
Eruption should take an instant 10% off the total timer and then make the gen regress for 30 seconds in a special state where no one can interact with that generator.
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@moondos said:
It doesn't matter if a survivor is running the perk or not, as a killer you MUST assume they all have it. Any perk that changes your playstyle merely because it exists is bad design.
As an extra this is how DH effects chases:
- Lunges are banned. You can never lunge at a survivor as it is a free boost and health state.
- Powers made useless. Trickster, Huntress, Blight, Plague, Neme, Nurse, Spirit etc. Any killer with power that involves a wind-up or predictable hits are free 3rd heath state material.
- Free mind games. If a survivor is near a pallet or window it is an easy fake and 3rd health state.
- Encourages Tunnelling. As chases are taking much longer, in order to 'win' a killer needs to remove a survivor from the field ASAP as hitting a DH costs you an extra 30+ seconds of chase.
- It's just depressing. Nothing is sadder than chasing a survivor that you manage to mind-game and outplay only for the dreaded 'E' to be pressed and all your hard work is gone. Honestly this is probably the biggest reason I want this perk changed... It's just not fun.
-"Any perk that changes your playstyle merely because it exists is bad design."
In this context I will agree with you but I also want to point out that there is a killer perk that is entirely mitigated by one simple little trick. Remember that perk Bloodwarden? You might not because nobody uses it. And nobody uses it because you can just 99% open the doors and make the perk irrelevant.
The take away here is that the game has two sets of rules- one for killer and one for survivor. Killer isn't allowed to have anything that makes playing survivor feel unfun. The survivor experience needs to be fun so that people keep buying all the character/perk DLC/cosmetics.
You can press "E" at a pallet in a chase and extend that chase by 30 seconds if you are a strong looper. Against the three strongest killers you can press "E" during their power activation and ruin their power completely.
Imagine if a killer could just press "E" to undo a generator's progress that had been kicked with eruption. Wouldn't that be ridiculous? You break the killer's three gen while he is chasing someone and then he just presses "E" and now the generator is rolled back to a state where it needs 30 seconds of time to repair it.
If you're ok with DH in its current state then you should be fine with Eruption being changed to the way I describe.
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@Mytea said:
hi,
i have got a good solution in my opinion to prevent camping and tunneling or to at least make them totally unattractive.
the following changes could succeed on that:
- make decisive strike basekit for every survivor,
- make off the record basekit for every survivor,
- make reassurance basekit for every survivor,
- make kinship basekit for every survivor,
- increase the usage range of reassurance from 8 to at least 16 meters
IF some killers think this is too overpowered also add the following:
- make no way out basekit for every killer encouraging them to hook multiple survivors
these changes should all make camping and tunneling no fun for killers abusing these mechanics while still not being too overpowered because all of these perks either are a one time use, if a person finds themself in an unpleasant gaming situation or they deactivate on conspicuous actions like healing, repairing a generator, cleansing or blessing a totem, unhook a survivor or open an exit gate. in addition to that decisive strike and off the record deactivate once the exit gates are powered making them less abusive.
if you want to camp 5 seconds to ensure the hooked survivor hits stage 2 that would still be possible. on the other hand survivors don't have to waste a perk slot for these perks that ensure a healthy gameplay experience. it's totally frustrating dying 1st hook having to hang there three whole minutes on the hook without being able to do anything in that match. it's also extremely frustrating being tunneled as the only person right after being unhooked.
these changes should be cool for every survivor and also for every killer who isn't camping or tunneling i would say. on the other hand if that would be too strong for some people behavior could encourage killers to hook every survivor at least once in return and therefore giving them basekit no way out. this would also guarantee a way healthier match in return to these anti-camping and anti-tunneling perks added for every survivor as basekit.
mytea
Your ideas are to : punish killers more.
This is wrong.
We need to reward killers with a built in base kit bonus objective that is more rewarding than tunneling. It's really that simple.
Example : every time you hook someone for the first time every survivor gets a -8% speed penalty to generators, totems, healing actions, chests, doors, etc. This stacks up to 4 times and is only available if no one has been killed yet.
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@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3332003#Comment_3332003
Uh, yeah. We want to avoid that whole 'going down like normal'. At least that's why I use it. It gets counterplayed more than its successful. It also requires good timing, etc. blah blah. Eruption requires none of this. It simply wins. Literally the difference between the two perks, and everyone wants to compare them as if they were equal. They are both highly used meta perks. One prolongs a chase, which for a lot of people is the most fun part of the game. The other stops players from playing the game.
There is no comparing. DH is good at low and mid tiers. Highly skilled killers will easily bait it or do something I probably cant even think of. The higher you climb the MMR or whatever it is now, the worse DH becomes.
Eruption is good at all tiers, with a SWF on comms being the 'counterplay'. Eh, if this doesn't help you understand, then lets keep going!
-"There is no comparing. DH is good at low and mid tiers. Highly skilled killers will easily bait it or do something I probably cant even think of. The higher you climb the MMR or whatever it is now, the worse DH becomes."
Dead Hard has the ability against some of the strongest killers to either force a killer to not swing during a power activation or swing and give the survivor distance with DH. The list here includes : Nurse, Spirit and Blight.
A good player can use DH to gain an 30 seconds extra in a chase by pressing E. You use it at a pallet and the killer either swings and you hit DH or they can just throw the pallet and be safe. When combined with windows this allows you to throw a TON of pallets to prevent a down. When combined with full health this lets a survivor have three health states in a chase. These are the main problems with DH.
Allow me to paint a picture of how ridiculous Eruption would be if it gave as much room as Dead Hard does now.
- The killer kicks one generator at a 3 gen to activate the generator.
- The survivors successfully complete the generator breaking the 3 gen
- The killer presses "E" and the generator rolls back to an uncompleted state needing 30 seconds to repair it.
Dead Hard is broken because it allows a chase to be extended longer than any other exhaustion perk. The only counter to dead hard is hard tunneling. When you get off the hook I will punch you immediately so you can't use it.
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@HugTechLover said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3355432#Comment_3355432
Here goes this blight hater again. 😂 Been pushed in by a blight too many times.
I don't have trouble running blight. But in terms of how easy he is to play, in terms of addon strength and in terms of his total kit he has too much to offer.
Enjoy your toy while it lasts - because it won't.
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@K_Nottie16 said:
For me I would get rid of Legion because the gameplay going against him is boring. Im tired of having to mend so much during the match. I dont think he'll be missed. For me the survivor would be Feng Min. Why because its controversial lol.
David King. Goodbye Dead Hard. Nobody thought you were balanced except survivor mains.
Also we can't have shirtless david unless we also have shirtless Meg - equality.
Blight needs to go. He's such a cancer to the game. His addons are too strong and he is just way too good at everything.
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@CBT137 said:
this and make stitched bag basekit (allow picking up of traps with stitched bag)
No. Starting with all his traps is too much.
He should start with 4 traps in hand and the rest should be evenly spaced around the middle of the map (not the edges).
Change the purple sack addon to be start with +2 traps in hand so he has 10 traps and can hold 6 in hand. This would stack with the green +1 trap option.
@theblimp said:
If a survivor is healthy and disarms a trap they should be injures as basekit, not have to use am addon for this
That would help tremendously and I have already suggested this idea before.
Make the current Bloody coil base kit and Change the Bloody coil addon to read : survivors cannot disarm a beartrap without a toolbox or the sabotage skill.
However we would also need to undo the nerf to beartraps that massively reduced their area effect.
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If you want to end tunneling you need to do two things:
- Survivors need to finish their objective much slower. This could be changed by making base gen time longer or by giving the killer deadlock base kit. Either way the killer should never lose two generators in the first chase. That needs to become the new norm.
- There needs to be a basekit reward better than tunneling. As an idea it would offer something like a stackable -8% speed penalty to working generators, totems, chests, healing, doors, etc., that is granted each time a survivor is hooked for the first time before anyone dies.
Anything less efficient than tunneling one player out of the game will just make me continue to tunnel one player out with the first three hooks.
Secondary problems that influence the need to tunnel include:
Maps are too safe and to large if not playing Blight/Nurse.
Gen speeds are too long relative to chase times.
The survivor objective is too quick relative to the killer objective.
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
I would say the audio just brings in a new element of gameplay for her. You do not know her exact position, just a relative direction, which means you can mindgame using the audio to force people into positions where you get hits. Overall I think it makes Spirit a lot more interactive to play as and against.
Also you need to remember that Spirit is suppose to be slower when not phasing, but faster while phasing, which depending on the addons it can leave the Survivor in a guessing game as to what they are going against and how to play around it. The yellow Duration and Speed addons are basically pseudo-Iridescent in terms of strength, and even their Brown addons are really damn good.
Sorry but you're wrong.
Pre nerf : Killer mains playing survivor countered Spirit just fine by listening to her footsteps.
Bad survivors had no idea where nurse was while she was phasing because survivors don't ever really need to learn game mechanics; the developers hold their hand every step of the way. That explains why Spirit got nerfed to oblivion.
@Iron_Cutlass said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3355234#Comment_3355234
You are forgetting a few things here:
- The audio fades in when they start phasing, it does not immediately start playing the phase audio as we normally hear it, meaning there is a short period in which phasing audio does not play at all or is toned down to where most people cannot hear it. Paired with Speed addons, this can make getting hits really easy on short loops, and leave Survivors less time to react on larger loops.
- You really do not consider the fact that people are human and we are bound to make mistakes. Furthermore, this isnt even considering all the people with hearing impairments, Ive seen some really cracked players but they struggle to hear game audio in general, and you arent going against a Spirit every match so it's not like their MMR is tanking that much either.
- Even if you have the brute force a hit, the movement speed is extremely deadly. Look at DBD's history of top tier Killers and see that most of them were for mobility in combination with lethality, and Spirit has both of those things. And since we are on the topic of addons, Furin removes directional phasing if you start phasing when a Survivor isnt in your Terror Radius OR if they are Oblivious/you are Undetectable; both of which are options you can use if you want old Spirit back.
There is a reason why Spirit is ranked so highly and is still considered a top tier Killer, and why some perks are restricted/held back (Hubris and Starstruck most notably).
-"There is a reason why Spirit is ranked so highly and is still considered a top tier Killer"
Spirit is by no means a top tier killer anymore. She is only strong with her best in slot addon vs very good players.
@Coffeecrashing said:
Spirit's overtuned directional audio defeats the entire purpose of her character design. Her entire character design is supposed to be that she can turn invisible, so she can try to set up mind games, or "50/50"s. What benefits does Spirit get from being invisible, if survivors are given a constant super accurate audio cue to where she is, that very often gives survivors MORE information than they would have gotten if the killer was just visible instead (and there was no directional audio)?
If Spirit needs directional audio, then why does it need to be so overtuned? Does it need to be so loud and accurate that survivors get an incredibly large amount of information of where Spirit is? Can the directional audio be toned down so the survivors only get the general direction of where Spirit is (e.g. she's somewhere in a 45 degree cone)? Can the directional audio have the loudness component removed, so survivors can't pinpoint where Spirit is, and instead will only know she's somewhere in a general direction? Can Spirit's directional audio be allowed to have sound occlusion, so Spirit can still do 50/50s when she breaks line of sight, since that is what most the other killers are allowed to do when they break line of sight and turn their camera to hide their red stain?
Can sound occlusion be removed from survivor noises when Spirit is phasing, to make it easier for Spirit to track survivors when the survivors are invisible to her?
-"Spirit's overtuned directional audio defeats the entire purpose of her character design."
You're not wrong but survivor mains always get their way.
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@stvnhthr said:
Deadhard is a hail mary, if you are losing because of dh you are a weak killer. DH works as intended maybe 30% of the time? Maybe less. That means well over half the time when you play against someone using DH you get a free down and hook. In my most recent game I went down 3 times in the same game using DH. First time I used it and timed it correctly, it never activated. Next time I used it one second early, it never activated. Next time I thought, "Ahah, I will use it a second and a half early," it activated immediately. One game, three different random timings for dh, it is impossible to use in a consistent manner within a single game, let alone from one match to the next.
Everyone who complains about DH is actually saying they are getting by on bad hits and lag.
Here's a video showing why you are dead wrong.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouFDP3Iz12sWe have a ~7k hour streamer who is essentially powerless against DH repeatedly throughout this match.
DH needs to have a HUGE negative to make it good but situational. It cannot keep "the third health state".
Either this means : using DH once makes you broken for the match OR DH is a once per game style perk OR it means all healing events take 100% longer for you or when directed at you.
In other words : you would heal so slowly you would waste all the time you gained in a chase using DH. You would basically play the game hurt and not worry about healing b/c you would have two health states as a result of DH.
Another clever poster suggested : DH gives an endurance effect but no sprint burst. This would also work.
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@shunzetsu said:
DBD Community is mostly very toxic and unhealthy to each other. Most of my games have been against toxic tunneling face camper (solo q). Its so sad to see a game with this much potential downgraded to what it is atm.
If people had a reason to play in a more healthy way, they would.
The killer tunneling one player out of the game is not a toxic response. It's a conditioned response to having the survivors tunnel your generators.
Remove tunneling from the game. How do we do that?
- Slow down the survivor objectives with something like baskit deadlock. The perk by the same name could extend the timer by 30 seconds. Both versions would gain "rollback" protection so that two gens finished simultaneously will make one roll back to 99% and be blocked.
- Reward the killer for not tunneling with something more powerful than tunneling. This would need to be something like an 8% penalty to gens/healing/totems/chests/etc. each time you hook someone for the first time - but only if no one is dead yet.
Anything less than the "reward" for tunneling one player out of the game will just make me do that instead because it is the most efficient option.
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@LuckyJewel said:
After being unhooked or escaped the hook, activate the perk for 50/60/70 seconds.
While the perk is active, when grabbed by the killer, causes all hooks within 15 meters radius of you will immediately get broken and the killer receive the hindered and blindness status effect for 4 seconds.
You see the auras of all broken hooks while the perk has activated
The perk is deactivated when preforming some interactions such as healing, repairing, blessing, cleansing and sabotaging.
The perk is permanently deactivated once it has successfully triggered after being grabbed, or will instantly deactivate and no longer remain active once the exit gates are powered.
Once the perk triggers and successfully escaping the killer's grasp, results you to become the killer's obsession.
Increase the chance to become the killer's obsession.
The killer can only be obsessed with one survivor at a time.
Is it a Fair perk for anti-tunnelling? : /
You want killers to quit the game? That's the perk to make to do it.
Killer Tunneling happens because survivors tunnel gens. The killer has to catch up by tunneling a survivor out of the game. Remove tunneling from both sides. Limit the loss of generators to one in the first chase. Through either base kit deadlock or base kit corrupt intervention.
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@AnxiousGummy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3354084#Comment_3354084
Blocking the gen? Wouldn't that just be Dead Man's? I think the changes are good overall. I agree that the incapacitated effect was the strong point before but it was too much at times.
They could have changed eruption so that the kicked generator just gets blocked for 30 seconds and during that time it continues to regress (as if the killer had kicked it).
This is a very cowardly nerf that will completely destroy the perk.
10% of the current progression is worthless. If you doubt that then you need only look at how often Pop goes the weasel gets used.
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@Peanits said:
On average, you'll pip up more than you'll lose a pip. And more importantly, both you AND your opponent can pip up at the same time. This is totally fine for a reward system like emblems/grades, but it's very bad when it comes to matchmaking. It makes it so over the course of a month, pretty much anybody who plays enough with end up in or near the highest bracket, more or less pairing anyone against anyone. This was pretty much exactly what happened under the old ranking system: Just before rank reset, matchmaking was all over the place since everyone was so close together.
The emblem system also isn't a good indicator of how skilled you are since it doesn't take your opponents skill into consideration. For instance, if you are a low MMR player playing against other low MMR players, you can still have a match where you pip or even double pip. But that doesn't suddenly make you as good as a high MMR player who does that same. You did well in that match with other similarly low MMR people, but you wouldn't do as well in a match with amazing players.
That's why we keep these systems separate. Emblems are purely a monthly ladder that you can climb for rewards (whether you're brand new to the game or an absolutely legend), and MMR is there purely to make sure you'll win about half of your matches. Mixing the two would either make it difficult to get your rewards- unless you're absolutely amazing at the game- or have a seriously negative effect on matchmaking.
"This is totally fine for a reward system like emblems/grades, but it's very bad when it comes to matchmaking"
To be perfectly honest the current matchmaking system feels very bad when it comes to matchmaking. Most people I know long for the days when we had a full rank reset every month. Over a long enough timeline random assortment is the most fair model.
-The emblem system also isn't a good indicator of how skilled you are"
So why do we use it? Overall the emblem system is a bad approximation of true skill.
@Deathstroke said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3354182#Comment_3354182
If grades don't matter for matchmaking system why depips still exist? Even if you pip more even one depip is very frustating for player who did his best. That result more sweating for both sides survivors bring map offerings and all the strongest stuff/gen rush. Killers tunnel/proxy camp at 5 gens and that all just because players want to make sure they don't depip. You should consider lowering safety pip standards at least for higher grades. Like now it feels they are meant to show skill expression. SoloQ it's almost imposible to get red grade 1. Extreme cases are all survivors can escape and still depip. Killer can get 4K and still depip.
"If grades don't matter for matchmaking system why depips still exist?"
Quoted for truth.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouFDP3Iz12s@TheSubstitute said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3353197#Comment_3353197
I am neutral about DH and don't care if it's nerfed or not. The problem is that you're single-minded on this issue. You can't even concede the slightest possibility that it might be that you have an issue with DH and/or are misperceiving its effect on survival rates. Your inability to consider that has led you to becoming more defensive and insulting throughout the conversation.
It's obvious no amount of reason will change your position from being black and white to considering any form of nuance so I'm not replying anymore. Have a good day.
A perfect example of how DH ruins the game. The perk repeatedly creates uncounterable situations for a M1 killers being played by a 7k plus hour streamer.
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@healsoflove718 said:
If you play survivor, you get hard tunneled or camped out of the game.
If you play killer, it's all gen rush, dead-hard, and t-bags.
Both sides are unfun to play at this point.
Please make the game fun again, like have survs each get hooked twice! THAT should be the main objective for the killer. The chase is what makes the game fun.
The best matches I have experienced which are SO RARE is when the killer has hooked everyone twice (without tunneling or camping) with 1 or 2 gens left to be done and nobody knows whether you make it out alive or not. That's not happening anymore.
"If you play survivor, you get hard tunneled or camped out of the game."
"If you play killer, it's all gen rush, dead-hard, and t-bags."
The devs pushed killer into a corner. There are 2 viable models : Nurse/Blight. Every other killer is inadequate across the majority of maps which are too large and have too safe loops.
Gens are too fast relative to chases so killers feel the need to tunnel. The devs put in tunneling protection for survivor but not for killer. Killer should have been either given Deadlock Or Corrupt Intervention base kit. And then much like borrowed time those perks could have an additional effect for running the actual perk. Deadlock for example could extend the generator lock out by +30 seconds (to one minute). Deadlock base kit would also gain "rollback protection" so that if two gens finish at exactly the same time one will roll back to 99% progress and be blocked.
They don't do that because survivors would not like it. The result is that killers have no choice and therefore must tunnel because the survivors can finish the game in under five minutes.
Heals are too fast and plentiful. Medkits need a rebalance. CoH offers unlimited healing with a one time 16 second interaction that is risk free unlike hexes. Gens are too fast with toolboxes and perks like Hyperfocus that allow you to miss great checks and get them anyway because you used the otherwise completely useless perk stake out.
Overall it's very clear the devs favor the survivor in development. This leads killers to play in a way that feels unfun/scummy to play against but in reality they are feeling the same angst by being gen rushed and T bagged.
The game would be vastly improved if they slowed down the survivor objective - maybe gens need to take an extra 10-15 seconds base. On top of that give killer a HUGE reward for not tunneling - which is completely different than a punishment. That will make killers not want to tunnel because that is the weaker play. They don't do this because once again : survivors won't like this.
Imagine for example if there was a base kit 8% generator/heal/totem/etc. penalty every time a survivor gets hooked for the first time before anyone is killed. That would make me stop tunneling immediately. And then I would also use Dying Light. Very quickly gens would build up to a -32% penalty. Dying Light would add another 9 % for hooking each player once. Survivors would hate gens that take ~127 seconds. And you know people would run Sloppy Butcher to stack -25% healing on top of the -32% penalty.
In reality the devs need to pick their poison. Are we going to keep tunneling the meta or are we going to buff killer and make things better and at the same time potentially "worse". Worse in this case means the games are harder for survivor and they can't do the things they used to do in the past : like heal easily and quickly, repair gens super fast.
The end result of such a harsh treatment would be that everyone gets to play the majority of a 10-15 minute game instead of dying instantly on the third hook in a game that lasts ~7 minutes.
As soon as it comes out I am going to play Texas Chainsaw Massacre. Why? Because both sides get voice coms and you will be able to play killer 3 vs 4 with your friends.
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@TheSubstitute said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3352801#Comment_3352801
You have an issue with DH and don't like the perk. That's fine but, once again, that's your opinion and it may or may not reflect reality. I work with data all the time but, hey, if you think a few streamers constitute a sample size that's representative of DbD as a whole you do you. You're only really discrediting your own arguments by going 'No!!! DH is such a problem!' to somebody who is neutral about the issue.
-"I work with data all the time"
You could have fooled me with the way you want to present any discussion about statistics.
DH is a powerful perk when used by skilled players. It's probably too good compared to the other exhaustion perks. When we look at two very skilled killer mains we can see a variety of good players using the perk in their games.
There is no way you are presenting a neutral front on DH. You clearly don't want the perk to be nerfed. If DH had been nerfed in a balanced way then you would not see something like a 60-75% pick rate in high tier play vs try hard teams.
One of the biggest problems with DBD is that majority of balance changes affect middle and low rank play. A good game adjusts for ALL levels of players. DBD isn't very fun to play as most of the killer cast because survivors can basically do whatever they want against M1 killers.
This causes a shift where people stop playing the weak killers. Over time they get better at the game and play harder opponents and then once again they are forced to play better killers to compete. That should not be a thing. The best killer and the worst killer should be no more than 15% apart in terms of power level.
Largely speaking if the average player can loop for 25 seconds before getting hit then the best players in the world should last no more than 35 seconds before taking a hit. But that's not the game we have. Sometimes players can make a chase last 90 seconds betwen hits and that completely breaks the game.
VHS messed up because the devs are actually good at their game. They balanced the game around limits that work when everyone is highly skilled but those same limits make low tier play intolerable. This is the exact opposite of DBD actually. People can play DBD for 2-12 months and think the game is great. Then they get good at the game and realize that the "endgame" is incredibly poorly balanced.
High skill dbd is basically only Nurse/Blight. If you find some rare other killer then they are going to hardcore tunnel and play in a very cheap way because their killer is grossly inferior to the best two killers.
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@TheSubstitute said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3352659#Comment_3352659
Being one sided and doing an us versus them argument still doesn't make evidence. You still don't understand what a sample entails and that's okay but that still doesn't make an opinion fact.
Edit: The other item that is showing that your viewpoint is very biased, similar to the 'there's no counterplay' against Nurse when there objectively is (similar to saying DH can't be countered when it can be) is that I have already said from the beginning DH might be an issue. If you're not incredibly biased why are you spending so much time arguing with someone who says 'there could be an issue but I don't have the data for it' with your anecdotal stories? The OP asked what are your problems with it. I answered for myself. Just because you have a problem with DH doesn't mean everyone experiences the same thing.
-"Just because you have a problem with DH doesn't mean everyone experiences the same thing."
Dead Hard is an overtuned perk similar to the way that NOED was overtuned in 2016 (not quite as much though). I can recognize that the perk is too strong and not have a "personal problem" handling it.
My favorite counter to dead hard is hard tunneling+STBFL+ hitting people as soon as they get off the hook. What dead hard? If you tunnel someone like this they get to use the perk once per game. You should not need to play that way against the perk.
Furthermore DH should not be able to give you a third health state.
-"You still don't understand what a sample entails"
Generally speaking 1000 is a moderately decent sample size. I think it's you who has the issue with statistics.
-"similar to saying DH can't be countered when it can be"
Imagine you're chasing me at a pallet and you can lunge to hit me before I get to the pallet. If you choose to attack then I use DH and you get nothing. Where's the counter? You don't swing and I don't use my DH so I just go around the loop again.
The only time you can counter DH is when they are out in the open and you've gotten so close that you can do an m1 tap. Almost nobody can really react that fast due to latency. And if they do react well then I have STBFL. The tiny distance doesn't matter because they are in the open and I will hit them again in a few seconds.
But here's the issue with all that: knowing that DH exists makes most killers wait 5-7 seconds of close distance and sometimes another 2-3 seconds for hesitation. In other words - just because Dead Hard exists it can waste 7-10 seconds per chase. If each game has 10 chases then that is 70 seconds wasted without a successful dead hard. That's completely ridiculous.
Before DH existed you got in range for a lunge and you attacked. Most of the time you immediately hit the player. DH ruined the chase experience in a lot of ways just because it exists.
Imagine if there were a killer power that removed skill checks. You can't use Hyeprfocus anymore because there are no skillchecks. You don't get to reduce the generator time by 1.2 seconds every time you hit a great skillcheck. You can't use autodidact anymore (not that anyone is really using it). Strangely enough it would be a decent perk vs good players because you would make them take about ~40 seconds longer to finish all the generators on average.
All this might sound really dumb but a lot of people don't really stop and think about how much DH changed the game.
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@Emeal said:
- You see it in every game.
- Its very good.
- its not in line with usage of other Survivor perks.
A better solution to Dead Hard is...Separate Endurance Qualities into two effects
Flight = Speed boost after a damaging hit, after unhook or from regular Exhaustion Perks.
Endurance or Braced = the Ability to take a hit without going down, Dead Hard and after unhook.
Dead Hard keeps Endurance, but you dont get to have a speedboost AND a hit negation.
This should easily bring Dead Hard down to level with other Exhaustion Perks.
-"A better solution to Dead Hard is...Separate Endurance Qualities into two effects"
Can you clarify this a bit?
Unlike most of the people in this thread you see the problem but that's clear in your three point breakdown.
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@TheSubstitute said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3352261#Comment_3352261
Honestly, your arguments are very similar to the more vehement anti-Nurse posters whom I've argued with that say Nurse needs a full rework and is uncounterable and totally 'broken'. She's not broken in my opinion and there is no data available to show she is but the more vehement anti-Nurse posters continue pulling at whatever anecdotes they can as 'evidence'. This is what you're doing with DH.
There is no data available showing DH is an issue. The data may exist but we don't have it. There are other reasons why DH is run more and why people complain more about DH such as DH is more fun for the survivors than SB but also less fun for the Killer. Due to how incredibly OP it was pre 6.1 more people might like it due to familiarity than they like SB. It might be perceived as more of a skill expression than SB, regardless if it is or not, and a significant amount of gamers are vain about skill.
Are these major factors in the pick rate? I don't know and neither do you.
If your opinion is that it should be nerfed because it's widely used that's your opinion. I disagree because I feel that Pop Goes the Weasel pre 6.1 promoted healthier gameplay than the current meta and that Ruin at 200% regression with the current deactivation conditions would be the ideal anti-gen perk for both sides and the regression should have never been nerfed. I don't think shaking up the meta just to shake it up should be the only goal but, if it matters to you, BHVR disagrees with me and agrees with your opinion about high usage rates and it's their game so they may nerf it in the future on that basis anyway.
To return to my main point, though, we don't have the data. If your goal is to try to convince me that DH is an issue that won't happen unless we see data and is kind of irrelevant anyway as BHVR will make their decision regardless of if individual posters agree or not.
-"your arguments are very similar to the more vehement anti-Nurse posters"
Where is this coming from? It's irrelevant and unrelated. DH had a high use vaules before the perk rework and it has high use after the perk rework by the best players. Nurse has counterplay but requires the survivors to do something besides mindlessly running the loop like they can vs killers with no antiloop.
The only argument to keep DH strong that had any merit was that pre-nerf nurse with stupidly broken addons left zero room for counterplay. Well that nurse element is gone b/c those addons do not exist anymore (and rightly so).
Pop was unfairly gutted. DH was made stronger in some ways and weaker in others. If Pop had gotten the DH treatment it would hit a generator at 95% for like 40% total progress removed.
I agree with you that Pop was healthy for the game. In fact I believe Pop should have been base kit at something like 15% progress. And then let people use and extra 20% total (not current progress) if they take the perk.
-"There is no data available showing DH is an issue."
Look at the vods of good streamers and look how many survivors use it to good effect. It's common to see 3/4 players playing with or against True using it. That is dumb. Look at the website tracking perk use in DBD. We can se DH has an absurd pick rate.
-"it should be nerfed because it's widely used"
This all on its own is problematic reasoning. Wide spread use however is often a symptom of a problem that should be looked at. There is no scenario where you can make DH worse than Head On. Head On is actually not bad; if you use it in the right scenario it can be extremely rewarding but has more risk. Over the majority of games however DH is easier to use and not only that it is easier to create a lot more wasted time for the killer.
The bottom line is that DH should not be wasting more time than any other exhaustion perk - we know that it does. Therefore the perk should either get nerfed to make it in line with all the others OR it should have a penalty to make someone think twice about using it. Needing +100% longer to heal would be a big penalty and that would go a long way to prevent the third health state.
-"we don't have the data"
Ok sure whatever. You can throw your head in the sand if you want. For 4-5 years we were told : SWF offers no advantage. And then on the 6th year we learned that SWF offers up to a 15% increased escape rate. That's an insane difference. Freddy was absolutely ruined for having a 4% higher kill rate.
And what do survivors get? Nerfs to SWF? No they get bufs to make everyone have massive info as if they were in a SWF. What do killers get : nothing except lots of stress and annoying games.
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@Deathstroke said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3352268#Comment_3352268
Dh is not problem for good blight. Litlith omen would not do 150 wins streak with blight if that would be the case. Supalf would not do 500 wins streak with nurse either.
So a note on this - without all the tricks currently available you cannot just use bumps against a DH user. You have to use some of the extra nonsense.
When that gets removed it will be a different story. Every blight main loves to say : I don't use hug tech. But the last time I watched LO's stream he used it twice in the first chase. Without hug tech he would not have had the opportunity to hit the survivor in a way that would have offset DH.
Throw some tournament players in a match and make the rule : no hug tech or any related tech is allowed. The blight will be disqualified if they ever use any non pure bump logic. LO and all the best players would immediately have problems because the survivors know that the blight can't do certain moves.
Blight is very weak around shack if you are only bumping. Everyone knows this - which is why the last time I watched LO he immediately went into hug tech to hit a DH user around shack.
Billy was unstoppable back in 2016 when he could flick in a direction different from that of his chasinsaw sprint. It was extremely abusive and was thankfully removed from the game. Hug tech is almost exactly the same problem : it's just way too much for a killer that is already very strong.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3352260#Comment_3352260
Again, the suggestion for stealth was to offset the downside that your suggestion would push onto a survivor. If that downside isn't offset, the perk is a net negative for you with absolutely zero upsides that couldn't be achieved by just choosing not to heal without the perk equipped. It really just seems like making it single use with extra steps, and if that is what you want, it'd be smoother for everyone to just say so.
I've already said how I'd nerf it, that's what the thread is about.
"For a period of [x] seconds after Dead Hard is used, whether it was successful or not, you cannot drop a pallet."
You're forgetting one key part of the doctor limitation : you cannot vault either.
Your idea would make it so most people would not use DH. The smart use of this perk is to use it around obstacles where the killer must either choose to swing during a timed event window.
Your change does nothing to address "the third health state". As I said before either give DH a broken effect on use OR give it some kind of negative so that healing with that perk is a huge waste of time.
It would read something like : healing actions on you take +100% longer with DH equipped.
DH once per game would be fine. We suggested this years ago as well.
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@ad19970 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3351484#Comment_3351484
I would argue that the BT basekit changes have definitely helped. They sure as hell haven't nerfed tunneling enough, but it definitely helped. Off the Record as well is a nice help against tunneling. But it' so frustrating that DS still hasn't been buffed back to 5 seconds stun duration.
I would also argue that the solo queue buffs certainly have helped survivor, and have made killer, on average, slightly more challenging again. Certainly not the big difference that some people claim it has made, but it has made an impact for sure. This is also noticeable through queue times, which have become longer for survivor again.
I do agree that tunneling and camping need to be nerfed, there is no way around that. If you buff killers in other ways, making their fair playstyle more viable, tunneling and camping need to be nerfed as well, otherwise there will always be people that will resort to those tactics because they give them easy wins.
In the end we need both. We need nerfs to tunneling and camping, and buffs to killers fair playstyle. The most optimal way to do this is to balance maps properly, right now the game still has a lot of survivor sided maps. Though some early game slowdown would also work, however it would still require map balance, but now BHVR would have to look into both maps that would still be survivor sided, and maps that would become killer sided. Personally, I just hope BHVR starts looking at all their unbalanced maps and makes them fairer. And then, while doing so, they also need to implement more nerfs to tunneling and camping.
Only nerfs to camping and tunneling without compensation for killer wouldn't work though, I am positive, considering queue times. Survvor queue times would become insufferable I fear.
"-I would argue that the BT basekit changes have definitely helped."
Base kit BT would have been fine if killers got base kit deadlock or corrupt. One said gets tunneling protection and the other side did not. That made the perk shake up reduce killer power overall vs SWF.
BT also makes me feel like I need to tunnel more now because survivors are just that much safer.
@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3352280#Comment_3352280
You obviously never played DBD when we had super bloodlust in 2018 .That was a pushback effort to make killers come back.
Stop dodging the point: The situation has improved for killers past 6.1., and tunnelling went -up-, not down.
If I lose 2 generators as a result of the first chase then the first survivor will usually pay for it with two hook states. And then I will tunnel them out of the game. This is the only way I come back form losing approximately half of my objective. Everyone knows this and that is why the best players that want to win are tunneling.
That first chase has three survivors working on gens for a total of 300% progression speed. As soon as that first hook happens, that goes down to 100%, because you'll be chasing one, one's going for unhook/heal, and only one is left on gen. Stop getting hung up on the first chase.
This is part of the problem: Competent killers understand that the first gen makes practically no difference. Neither does the second. It's the later ones that will make or break the game.
You're making a stink over losing those two first generators, but how does the rest of the game progress for you? Because plenty of matches have one hook at 2-3 gens done, and then STILL end in a 4K. You're taking a tiny part of the game and going 'that's unfair', and you're throwing the rest of the picture out.
Yes, you lose gens during your first chase. Everyone does. Yet somehow, everyone else is still getting kills, even without tunnelling, but you are the one struggling.
Perhaps you should go watch some tryhard streamers who don't play Nurse or Blight all day. A lot of killer mains play with the intention to tunnel one player out on game start. Why? Because DBD stops being a fair game anything past mid level MMR (unless you are playing fully loaded Spirit/Blight).
That's funny, because the kill rate is HIGHER at top 5% MMR than the total average. So it seems like -most- killer players actually outpace the survivors they're matched with.
Just not you.
Tunneling is the most efficient way to play killer. Gen rushing with the mindset of gens before firends is the most efficient way to play survivor. But this too is tunneling. Survivors want to tunnel generators and not get tunneled out as a response. That is foolish.
Honeydoodle, if survivors are 'tunnelling' a generator, the killer wins. If they're all playing orbiter around a gen that they are desperate to finish, you have all the pressure and control you need because that gen is not getting finished while you're on top of it.
This is the entire problem: Your demands for a 'fair game' are getting more and more outlandish as the discussion goes on. Survivors can't do gens during the first chase. Survivors can't finish gens. They can't be allowed to power the exit gates. You just keep dropping the bar for what you consider an 'unfair' game. No matter what you get, you will find something new to complain about, and we'll be right back here.
Which will it be then? One person gets removed every game by the third hook or the game is slowed down and you can't win in 4 minutes because the game is focused on chases not holding m1.
You know my decision. You know what I want the game to be aimed towards. The only difference between you and me is that you think survivors should not have any chance at victory.
Every comment you make has almost no consideration for the 5th player. It seems like the game would be a lot better for everyone if gens didn't get finished so fast. Then the killer would not feel the need to remove one survivor with the third hook. A base kit mechanic that makes the game harder but encourages keeping people alive would make the game more fun for all parties involved.
Here's the problem with everything you're arguing: YOU position yourself as the sole arbiter. You say I'm inconsiderate, but you fully disregard everything beyond your own limited experience. YOU think that YOU should be the one who, singlehandedly, gets to determine whether the game is fair, whether the game is slow enough.
Say you implement everything YOU desire, and survivors get slowed down enormously, and you get in a chase with someone who massively outplays you, what's to stop YOU from failing to take the L on getting outplayed and instead just ruining the game for everyone else? Again?
This is a gunfight. You and I are both tired of it, but whereas I'm perfectly willing to toss the gun out the window, you want to keep that gun in your back pocket, 'just in case'.
No. We already know killers will just go back to tunnelling at the slightest inconvenience. Literally anything can be used as 'justification' for tunnelling, as you yourself are demonstrating. You need to be stripped of that toy, not just leave the entirety of the game exclusively in your hands with a half-hearted promise of 'I won't abuse it, trust me'.
6.1. told me enough.
-"The situation has improved for killers past 6.1., and tunnelling went -up-, not down."
It clearly did not because that patch made Otz start tunneling. Many killer mains went from I will tunnel if the survivors behave a certain way to: I will tunnel the first person hooked no matter what. You are not a killer main. You are telling me how my games play out with no knowledge of what happens in them.
The Hud display made everything just absolutely gross. And then they gave survivors gen progress/heal percentages and it became absolutely ridiculous.
SWF gives me somewhere between 4-12 perks worth of information depending on the team. Are we just going to say killer gets 8 perk slots now? I would be ok with this but you will hate how that plays out.
-"Competent killers understand that the first gen makes practically no difference. Neither does the second."
No this is how a survivor main thinks. You need to sit down and play a few thousand hours of killer. Then maybe you will actually play 500 games against extreme try hards and understand how terrible it feels right now playing killer.
Breaking a three gen is the equivalent of killing one player. Tunneling needs to stop for both sides or neither.
"the kill rate is HIGHER at top 5% MMR than the total average. So it seems like -most- killer players actually outpace the survivors they're matched with."
The devs have always gathered poor statistics. I asked their stat guy two questions back in 2018 and his mind was completely blown. He said the answer to one of my questions would take a month or more to figure out. This was also a time when the devs said : swf gives no advantage. Bad data collection gives bad conclusions.
We have never had data that looks at when downs happen vs when gens get completed. We don't ever really get to look at the "why".
Stop projecting that I am bad at killer. I played three games last night and 2/3 were 4ks. One player got a hatch that spawned about 2m too close for me to punch him and pick him up before he could hop in. You cannot assume : the game is fine because I got 11 kills in 3 games. Multiple players from those games told me : I sucked at the game. This is funny because the people saying this were in games where I had an ironclad three gen that was never going to get broken. They didn't like how I played the game (forcing an attrition win) and wanted me to play the game on their terms where I would lose quickly.
Simply put: the game was more fun back many years ago where we didn't have this gen before friends attitude.
-"if survivors are 'tunnelling' a generator, the killer wins"
I can't begin to explain how this single sentence shows how little you know about the game.
-"Survivors can't do gens during the first chase."
I never said that. Losing one gen in the first chase would be fine because that is the weakest pressure point for the killer. Losing two or three will always drive killers to tunnel. It's just a function of game mechanics because if you have one player dead, one player slugged/hooked then the gens slow to a crawl as you are chasing one player. The game pace needs to slow down. You want it to be fast for one side but want to make the other side pump the brakes. This is not logical or fair.
-"you think survivors should not have any chance at victory."
I think you lack some degree of reading comprehension if you think that is true. The survivors should not be able to finish a majority of their objective after one chase. It's far too easy to trade one hook state for one generator. You know this and that is why killers tunnel one person out.
-"Literally anything can be used as 'justification' for tunnelling, as you yourself are demonstrating."
The entire last portion of your reply is a nonsense rant. I want tunneling prevented for both sides. You want tunneling but only when it's generators and not survivors. There is no reason not to tunnel generators as a survivor. Knowing that - if the survivors tunnel gens then the killer loses if he does not tunnel a survivor. See the problem? It's ok I know you don't.
I'm not interested in having more conversation with you because you want the game to only be fun/fair for one side. Killer should desire not to tunnel because there is a better reward. If you don't want that as a goal then you want the killer to continue removing the first player hooked from the game every time. It's really that simple. Make your choice.
@ad19970 said:
Actually balancing maps will encourage more killer players to not tunnel.
There is no way to "fix" tunneling, but the idea should be to weaken camping and tunneling as much as possible, while making fair playstyles of killers more viable. That's what DBD needs in the end.
Right now, DBD needs nerfs to tunneling and camping, and better map balance, so killers don't have to deal with as many unfair maps anymore.
-"balancing maps will encourage more killer players to not tunnel."
This is true but needs a caveat. Small maps generally speaking are more fair to killer because you can naturally find someone working on a generator while you are chasing someone else. This never happens on large maps because there is too much free space.
Looking at the corn maps there is one map that is fair : Abattoir. It has a decent size at 8,704m. Does that mean small maps are fair? Sadly that's not true. The game is 9088m but it's only fair if you are playing a killer that can hit over pallets, instantly break them or ignore them (Huntress/Nemesis/Nurse/Blight/etc).
Even coal tower is not a "fair" map (8448m) because there are too many resources in close proximity. It allows for too much looping before a pallet needs to be used. Overall Coal tower would be more fair if the resources were more spread out toward map edges so that running to a loop put you "away" from most of the other loops. Or imagine if there were more vault gyms and fewer pallet gyms. Imagine if the pallets were a valuable link that might allow you to chain from one gym to the other but those were the only regular pallets available.
Overall DBD has too many pallets that completely shut off a killer's ability to get a hit. The idea : you must break this pallet or I can run around it indefinitely - should happen about once or maybe twice rarely on a map.
Hawkins was a wonderful map. It was small and had mostly fair pallets with only a few god pallets. Why did we lose the ability to make maps like that?
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3352267#Comment_3352267
Look at Billy and how bad his saw is right now compared to say 2016 (not talking about before flick nerf - ignore that). LF isn't even on the radar when you consider how pathetic Billy is right now.
Billy's position in the game should not be related to another killer's position in the game. Billy is pretty bad. i'd give Billy higher priority over LF.
LF overall is one of the most boring and simple killers : walk behind someone and chainsaw. Changing him so that he needs the saw to "catch up" would make him a lot more interesting.
You certainly do not play much leatherface. leatherface at high-level is based around catch-up with chainsaw in the chase. LF at 110% would be worse at catch-up and worse at pallet break zoning. Leatherface just has bad base-kit(for high level), but both his chili and beast marks enable him to counter hold-w strategies if your good at him which most LF are not good at him. he takes too much game-sense for most players.
-"Billy's position in the game should not be related to another killer's position in the game. Billy is pretty bad. i'd give Billy higher priority over LF."
This is a logic fault. First let me say I feel that all the killers should be within 15% power level of each other from the best to worst. The only exception is if some killers are "allowed to be bad" and would have MMR caps. Imagine for example if Trapper could never actually go past 1450 MMR keeping you out of the high tier bracket. Would that be fair? It might but why not make him competitive so that he's a B+ killer base kit insted of a D killer requiring an iri addon (bloody coil) to be viable. Trapper with the Bloody coil base kit would be "tolerable". Let him have 4 traps in hand base and that would be a good start to make him decent. Change the purple sack back to +2 traps in hand (meaning you also start with +2 extra traps).
-"leatherface at high-level is based around catch-up with chainsaw in the chase. LF at 110% would be worse at catch-up and worse at pallet break zoning"
I am fully aware. I am suggesting to retune him so that he's 110% but the saw is better - yet more necessary to really start a chase.
This would make LF a unique chainsaw experience very different from Billy. LF would be more of a pouncing charger and in some ways would be like Wesker (although since he came first Wesker is really more like LF around loops).
Much like Wesker mains do LF would also be doing more "chainsaw for distance". Two could be changed to do things like have a longer paced slower saw charge OR be a more intense shorter charge.
The biggest problem with the game is that it always feels like killer is an afterthought. LF is super low on the priority list and might never get fixed if they are going to lose him with the TCM game coming out soon.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3351518#Comment_3351518
Killer is not strong right now. The hud changes massively tilt the game if everything else were fine (it's not). The 6.0 patch caused Otz to start tunneling and right now Truetalent is playing killer by request and otherwise plays survivor.
Killer is at its strongest, and tunnelling is more prevalent now than ever. This proves that this idea that folks like to spout on the forums of 'Killers only tunnel because they can't win otherwise' is nonsense. Buffing killers does not decrease tunnelling at all, yet you still want to cling onto it.
And 6.0? 6.0!? That's the Dredge release. That did nothing for the overall game balance! If Otz started tunnelling there, then that proves that tunnelling has nothing to do with how strong killers are. It was just a random moment!
Unless you meant to say 6.1, you know, the big perk overhaul that also gave killers a ton of compounding buffs. In which case you're smashing your own windows even harder.
It's not fun to lose 2/5 or 3/5 of your objectives in the first chase.
Then don't play killer. because the reality is that you are going to lose those difficult to pressure gens early on when the killer is at their lowest point. That is a necessity of balance. Plenty of games stall out really badly once the survivors only have one or two gens left to do. Not to mention that (And I'm pretty sure this isn't the first time) you leave out the exit gates and EGC.
This also illustrates exactly what I'm talking about: You can just drop the bar. Because now you're not talking about having a fair match, now you're talking about how survivors get gens done. What's to stop you from getting just as upset and 'muh tunnelling' over survivors getting 1 gen done in first chase? Or getting 3 gens done over the entire match? It's shameful how often it happens that killers complain about something survivors can accomplish in matches that the killer wins by a landslide.
Gen speeds are too fast relative to chase speeds when we look at high skilled play.
You're not at 'high skill' play. None of you are. If even half of the people whinging about how they are 'forced to tunnel' were actually in 'high skill play', we'd have 25% of the playerbase somehow crammed in the top 5% MMR.
Not to mention that if you DO tunnel, you're going to be pushing your MMR above where your chase skill is, so you're creating that problem for yourself in the first place!
Well it's foolish to ask the killer not to tunnel.
Congrats. That's why tunnelling needs to be beaten down into submission. No amount of asking nicely, no amount of 'dangling the carrot' is going to fix it. So stop advocating for a 'just buff killers' approach.
You need to give the killer something better than tunneling to discourage it.
Or you can -not- completely nuke the game by making regular gameplay as oppressive as tunnelling, and just nerf tunnelling instead.
Besides, who's going to judge what's 'better than tunnelling'? Is it, perchance, the killer?
What's to stop you from losing one (1) game and coming right back here to whinge about how you're 'forced to tunnel', and demand yet more buffs? After 6.1, I just don't take 'Just trust me, bro' for any kind of value.
-"Killer is at its strongest, and tunnelling is more prevalent now than ever."
You obviously never played DBD when we had super bloodlust in 2018 .That was a pushback effort to make killers come back.
-"Then don't play killer. because the reality is that you are going to lose those difficult to pressure gens early on when the killer is at their lowest point."
If I lose 2 generators as a result of the first chase then the first survivor will usually pay for it with two hook states. And then I will tunnel them out of the game. This is the only way I come back form losing approximately half of my objective. Everyone knows this and that is why the best players that want to win are tunneling.
-"What's to stop you from getting just as upset and 'muh tunnelling' over survivors getting 1 gen done in first chase?"
Perhaps you should go watch some tryhard streamers who don't play Nurse or Blight all day. A lot of killer mains play with the intention to tunnel one player out on game start. Why? Because DBD stops being a fair game anything past mid level MMR (unless you are playing fully loaded Spirit/Blight).
"You're not at 'high skill' play."
My regular opponents are DBD comp tournament players. It's common for me to play against people with 5000-10000 hours more than not. But tell me more about how I'm not playing at high skill levels.
-"That's why tunnelling needs to be beaten down into submission. No amount of asking nicely, no amount of 'dangling the carrot' is going to fix it"
Tunneling is the most efficient way to play killer. Gen rushing with the mindset of gens before firends is the most efficient way to play survivor. But this too is tunneling. Survivors want to tunnel generators and not get tunneled out as a response. That is foolish.
-"Or you can -not- completely nuke the game by making regular gameplay as oppressive as tunnelling"
Which will it be then? One person gets removed every game by the third hook or the game is slowed down and you can't win in 4 minutes because the game is focused on chases not holding m1.
Every comment you make has almost no consideration for the 5th player. It seems like the game would be a lot better for everyone if gens didn't get finished so fast. Then the killer would not feel the need to remove one survivor with the third hook. A base kit mechanic that makes the game harder but encourages keeping people alive would make the game more fun for all parties involved.
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@birkineer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3351480#Comment_3351480
I would agree except the regression from CoB is half of that and thats already been shown to be quite powerful. I think if killers just had base 150% auto regression (like ruin) and could kick for an instant 5% (similar to overcharge) then base regression would be fine.
More things should be balanced around living survivors, though.
You could just change either CoB or Overcharge to a perk where after you kick a generator then nobody can work that generator for X seconds. It would have a run time of like 30 seconds and have a refresh of at least 20 seconds after it ended before you could use it again.
This would let a killer go to a generator with two people and kick it then chase one player. The other survivor can sit there for 30 seconds waiting in horror as the generator goes down by the same speed they repair it OR they run to a new generator.
That would be a very healthy perk for the game because it would allow killers to defend generators.
It's important to remember that tunneling happens because the gens are nearly impossible to defend vs smart players with four people alive. The hud changes made it ridiculously simple to make sure your team is always blasting generators.
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@Deathstroke said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3351406#Comment_3351406
Thah blight was obviously bad. Lilith omen for example destroyed ayrun p100 squad even they all played well. Ayrun is one of the best survivors out there. Now imagine what would happen if gens were 130s.
-"Thah blight was obviously bad"
No he was just outplayed by everyone using DH really well and blasting gens.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3351420#Comment_3351420
I think he's asking for acceleration to not scale as hard. Like instead of going from 86% m/s to 132.25% over 2 seconds(?) which is like entire first charge, he is likely asking something like 110% m/s to 132.25% m/s.
what that does is make his chainsaw less add-on dependent because he is moving faster at the start so he is covering more distance. I am not entirely sure, but i think what acceleration add-on used to do is shorten how fast it takes for leatherface to go from 86 m/s to his max movement speed. so for example, if it takes 2 second to from 86 to 132.25%, a 20% acceleration would reduce it to 1.6 seconds. that is why those add-on felt like they were doing nothing because... well by the time you accelerated, your chainsaw would end.
again i am not expert or anything, but that is what I understand from playing him. 110% leatherface? your crazy.
-"110% leatherface? your crazy."
I am guessing you never saw the movie where he hits himself in the leg with his chainsaw?
Horvath always said if he had been on the team Billy would have been 110% movement. LF would make a lot more sense if he were 110% speed but to compesnate you get a lot more speed when you used your saw. Most of the speed addons would go but you would get some of the speed as base kit.
Look at Billy and how bad his saw is right now compared to say 2016 (not talking about before flick nerf - ignore that). LF isn't even on the radar when you consider how pathetic Billy is right now.
There are a number of really stupid things about LF that make no sense. For one LF has no collision with hook poles. That would be a really smart way to adjust this killer so that he can't do the most obviously troll thing that everyone knows bad LF players do.
LF overall is one of the most boring and simple killers : walk behind someone and chainsaw. Changing him so that he needs the saw to "catch up" would make him a lot more interesting. In one sense he would be more like spirit with a chainsaw in that he uses his saw for movement and chase (obviously without the stealth part).
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@TheSubstitute said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3351403#Comment_3351403
It's not a sufficient sample size and, even if it were, that would be a different issue as the issue would now be should BHVR balance around the top players? On that my position is that they're a factor but not the only factor and the other factors would have to be considered as well.
Maybe, if Dead Hard is an issue, BHVR can use your balancing idea. I really don't care if DH gets changed or not. I almost never use it, and I don't personally see it as a problem, but it might be a problem. My entire main point in our discussion has been nobody, outside of BHVR, knows if it is or not. The data is just not available to us.
-"I really don't care if DH gets changed or not. I almost never use it"
NOED used to be a perk you never took off because it lasted forever and gave you 9% movement speed. I wonder why it got nerfed?
DH was being used by 75% of the best players before 6.0 and it is still being used in the same frequency after. We have web sites that track data about DBD - go have a look.
DH is used way too often to not be nerfed. And this time it needs a real nerf, not a "kid glove" tap on the wrist.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3351398#Comment_3351398
...What?
Stealth isn't dead, one of the strongest builds in the game is a stealth build and there are a ton of serviceable stealth perks in the roster. That's a weird take, and it's one that doesn't even connect to the post you're responding to.
The point of bringing up stealth is that "playing hurt" is a net negative for you here. You're louder, easier to track, and only have what would be an inconsistent potential second health state to make up for it- which wouldn't even be a net positive if it were 100% reliable and uncounterable, that'd just be worse off than having two regular health states. Nobody would run that perk, and so it's not meaningfully different to just burying it for the sake of never wanting to see it again. Even with the built-in Iron Will and blood stifling effects of No Mither added on to your idea, I struggle to think of any reason someone would want to run this version of Dead Hard outside of doing Adept David challenges- it's just a net negative for them.
Stealth is a thing vs noob killers. It's not once you get to a certain level of play. You pressure with things like yo-yo movement as Otz calls it where you pre-run when the killer shifts to your generator.
Every now and then you can make a stealth play but the maps are different without the thick fog. I will post a picture from a friend to show you.
dbd old fog.jpgTell me how you want to nerf DH so that it doesn't let you have three health states in a chase.
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@Cryptikk said:
How did Hag play before her rework?
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3351493#Comment_3351493
Her trap speed was stupidly slow. It was about 3x as long. She had limits on her teleport and her addons were not as good overall.
@Wahara said:
She didn't have a re-work. And the complaint wasn't that traps are counterable, but that they're too easy to counter and possess virtually no risk to the experienced survivor. Her counterplay is free AF. The fact you think she needs a nerf of all things is pretty outrageous. If you think you have to bring a flashlight to keep hag from setting up you weren't really interested in absorbing what I posted.
As for what most people perceive to be true, that's not really a point because "most people" can be wrong, but even taking that on its face its wrong. Most people put her in C, B if they're sentimental.
Oh but she did. Go look at the wiki and you can see where she had multiple addons and mechanics changed.
If you are a hag main I am sure you do not want to hear it but she has very little counterplay vs "medium" tier survivors. Imagine playing vs trapper and you could only disarm a beartrap by using up some of your toolbox. That sounds op right? Well that's what Hag is now basically.
This is one of the most oppressive and annoying addons to play against in the entire game.
Tell me where the counterplay for this addon exists.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3350195#Comment_3350195
Tunneling can be ended very easily. You give the killer a reward better than removing someone form the game. For example : imagine if base kit the killer got a permanent 8% stacking penalty to gen speeds for each unique player hooked as long as no one has been removed from the game.
So you can get a max of 32% slowdown for 4 hooks, or, what, 50-60% slowdown for 3?
People need to really stop talking garbage about how killers just need to be buffed out the wazoo to compensate for tunnelling. It's not going to work. It is never going to work. You've got people crying their asses off about how unfair the game is to killers when killer has never been easier than it is now, and yet tunnelling is at an all-time high.
We -know- that killers are just going to drop the bar for what they consider 'viable' and demand more buffs 'or else we'll tunnel'. It's the killer's beatstick. It's just something they pull out of storage to mess up talks of balancing and demand easier games. "Just make the game literally unwinnable for survivors, and we -might- tunnel a bit less"
Except everyone knows that as soon as you screw up anything in your game and a single gen gets done, you'll go straight back to tunnelling.
Tunnelling needs to be nerfhammered into the ground. It needs to be a garbage tactic that feels as terrible for the killer to employ as it is for the survivors to face.
And we -know- DS is a good deterrent, so all we need is for that to be basekit (And the stun cut reverted), with perhaps the tweak that you have no killer collision while it's up. Make it only usable against tunnellers and you'll seriously push that tactic back down.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3350468#Comment_3350468
Basekit BT accomplishes nothing. OTR doesn't work if the killer tunnels hard enough. Genrush perks do nothing against tunnelling. In fact, the only 'genrush' perk that sees any consistent use is countered by tunnelling.
DS actually made tunnelling suck, before it got a random 50% nerf.
-"killer has never been easier than it is now, and yet tunnelling is at an all-time high."
Killer is not strong right now. The hud changes massively tilt the game if everything else were fine (it's not). The 6.0 patch caused Otz to start tunneling and right now Truetalent is playing killer by request and otherwise plays survivor.
-"Tunnelling needs to be nerfhammered into the ground."
Let me guess - you are one of those players that think it's fine for survivors to tunnel generators but bad when killers do it? Tunneling needs to be removed from the game for BOTH sides. Most people don't consider the killer's fun. It's not fun to lose 2/5 or 3/5 of your objectives in the first chase.
Why do killers tunnel?
- Because survivors tunnel gens.
- Gen speeds are too fast relative to chase speeds when we look at high skilled play. Only Nurse/Blight really have much of a chance.
- Base kit borrowed time encourages more tunneling. I know that doesn't make sense but that is what happens.
- Map sizes overall are unfair unless you are playing Nurse/Blight.
- Because you get nothing for going for 4 different people as part of the base kit.
It's not some narrative it's very simple.
Consider what do you get if you get 33% of a generator finished? You get nothing if the generator resets. Imagine a killer asking the survivors to get all 7 generators to 33% before trying to get one generator before 66% progress. It's ridiculous right? Well it's foolish to ask the killer not to tunnel.
You need to give the killer something better than tunneling to discourage it.