DBDVulture
DBDVulture
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@Killing_Time said:
Listen, I played Docktah and several other killers on maps like Garden of BS, ARTIST MAP, and so on... Like come on. Without slowdown Perks, it's a 0k pretty much every game. Most of the maps are entirely too big and have so many tiles that combo you're left defenseless. I'm playing on console since I have more unlocked there and it's a pain not being able to use mobility killers. (not billy... He's terrible now.)
Map design eventually HAS TO GET ADDRESSED!
Maps like Eruption should be "game ruining" as long as perks like CoH and Dead Hard exist in their current form. Not only should Eruption exist but it should be buffed so that it affects SWF and solo players. What kind of buff should it have? Eruption ideally should just make all generators the killer kicked not be able to be stopped regressing for 45 seconds (the new cooldown timer for the perk).
Dead Hard should probably get a nerf on the order of : mending and healing take 100% longer. So now you can't afford to play with a "3rd health state" and to use DH you need to play wounded.
CoH should probably allow for 2 heals while it is in place and then needs to be reset. All dull totem locations should have the bones destroyed if the killer kicks them while a boon is active. Or the killer should be given a 5th perk slot that is for "hex related" perks only.
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@Canas said:
I've been collecting data from several matches since the last patch dropped and noticed an increasingly worrisome trend: matches have become VERY survivor sided. It's borderline impossible to have a normal match as a killer anymore, literally every single survivor group is comparable to a SWF sweat squad and gens pop at rapid speeds. I also see bp incentives for killers seemingly throughout the day, that's how bad things have gotten.
You want some pics? I got pics.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/SZMKSTDXCYTL/playtime.png
This is my profile; I currently have over 2600 hours on DbD. I've been playing since 2018, mostly as killer.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/4DJLM9XTECBZ/last-18-games.png
This is a compilation of recent matches, 18 of them in total. I've been playing as Knight, Legion and Plague in those games and it's been one loss after another.
Some of these matches even featured players with hacked items (yellow flashlights with instablind capability, being able to blind from behind the killer) which has drastically lowered my enjoyment of the game. It's plain torture, not even camping seems to work against these teams.
Everyone brings Adrenaline and Dead Hard, every single survivor is playing at maximum efficency and chases take so long that half of the survivor objective is done when I finally hook someone. The constant information buffs for survivors have created a gap that's so vast that most killers can't even cross it anymore, it feels completely hopeless.
I urge you to revert these HUD-changes, survivors should NEVER have this much information to begin with. The killer entirely relies on survivors mostly lacking coordination and stumbling around; you've put this important aspect entirely on its head and enabled survivors to make a mockery out of killers. This cannot go on.
-"survivors should NEVER have this much information to begin with. The killer entirely relies on survivors mostly lacking coordination and stumbling around"
That's why we asked for SWF to get nerfed 6 years ago. They refused to even acknowledge SWF was a problem for at least 4 if not 5 years. Then they finally said - oops SWF teams are escaping too often. And the shocking part is they acted like this was a surprise.
Add new rule: no character/item/offering/perk repeats in a SWF. Lock all changes except costume when a SWF is in queue.
Add : GUI element to show what perks/items/addons people are bringing inside a lobby.
Give killers that are not nurse/blight +2 perk slots.
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@LordSturm said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3339059#Comment_3339059
The event just ended and I have like 12 left, I kept a few because I figured it'd be nice to have them for next year.
I have 150+ On Nemesis. That's who I am spending points on right now and that's who I am playing.
What do I get as killer turn in? When the event isn't running can I get light burn protection once every 2 minutes?
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@AssortedSorting said:
Survivors already have a depletable resource that ends the game for them: Hook States.
If you want Basic Attacks to feel like they always add something, think about including something akin to a Rage Meter (that builds off of Basic Attacks) instead of making Health States limited.
I realize what you're getting at with an enrage meter like VHS has in their game. The problem is that DBD has incincibility states. An enrage attack would need to ignore that.
That would mean you can't dead hard an enrage attack and that would make survivor mains angry. Honestly for the game to have any real justice the killer would also likely need to be given enrage attack progess every time a pallet is dropped.
And then we're back to a state where Nurse and Blight are getting buffs and the killers that need it are not catching up to those killers. Try again.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3338307#Comment_3338307
No offense, but challenge accepted. MM is nowhere near Doctor. Not even in the same dimension. Doctor has a chance to really play around strong loops and guarantee hits where Michael can do what exactly? Ahh, yes. Stalking. Stalking until he reaches tier 3, which will not help him in loops. In the right hands Doctor can get very oppressive to the part where latency makes little to no difference. He also has some great addons to help him.
I'd argue that Otz might not be the best example to make Doctor truly shine. He is a very good player in general and no doubt quite good with Doctor as well but he makes mistakes that someone who mains this killer simply doesn't. He could control the survivors movements so much better by simply pushing them away from certain structures with the shock and there is also room for improvement when it comes to him managing tier 3. It's a bit like watching an insane Clown main and comparing them with Otz. Both are good but one is just better.
Wraith isn't this bad either. He struggles with maps, yes but predropping is completely useless against him and his extra speed while cloaked is a big deal. His anti-loop can sometimes (admittedly on very rare occasion) guarentee hits as well.
I'd put Freddy down there with Trapper right now. Even Myers can at least some times get dangerous because of tier 3. But Freddy? Well, he has a teleport, I'll give him that. But that one takes forever to charge and channel. He has a side gimmick that is more of a detriment to him than an addition. Survivors that are awake are immune to his already weak anti-loop. It's half of what Clown has and even he sometimes struggles in chase. Freddy's addons are horrible as well. The paint brush isn't bad and the masterpiece is ok as well but the rest is just worthless. With the nerf to his dream pallets even the one niche where they could be utilized is gone.
-"challenge accepted. MM is nowhere near Doctor. Not even in the same dimension."
I think you're just not used to seeing anyone play michael well. Otz for example doesn't even use Bamboozle which is madness. And he never brings one of the two addons that makes the killer "not suck". He loves to bring the shards which in my opinion are nearly worthless. Instead he brings coup which quite honestly is just not needed because MM already has a longer lunge and most people can't account for the difference. A long time ago I played MM for two years straight so I know a thing or two about this killer.
Now to be fair MM just got nerfed by the 6.1X update that trashed Bamboozle and Fire up not stacking with his power vault. This killer just didn't need any nerfs. FIre up used to be the ultra secret best perk on him. It made everyone assume you were using things like lightborn and brutal strength.
Rules would basically be someting like : killer picks map no other offerings (killer hosts). No character/item/perk repeats. Survivors must use the same build/items for both rounds.
The survivors must also not know the identity of either killer. It would not be fair for example if someone used calm spirit knowing it would help vs doctor.
-"I'd argue that Otz might not be the best example to make Doctor truly shine."
Otz typically runs a goofy build on doctor but is actually quite proud of how he plays this killer. At some point in the last 3 months or so he had a high kill streak and it was one of the times he would camp and tunnel aggressively to protect his streak at the start of a game.
-"He is a very good player in general and no doubt quite good with Doctor as well but he makes mistakes that someone who mains this killer simply doesn't."
This I will agree too as both he and literally every streamer I watch except maybe Bronx play Nemesis with less than full understanding. Nemesis plays a lot like Demo so it makes sense that Bronx being a demo main has no trouble transitioning to his true main: Nemesis. At the end of the day Otz is an entertainer so if he makes a goofy play as part of the show there's going to be a payout. He either can laugh it off or make a clip for the highlight reel with an amazing play.
I think both Otz and True can play Doc with near perfect understanding of when to shock at loops. They are very good at doing fakes but there comes a point where doctor is just ourclassed.
Almost nobody for example realizes that if you are chasing a survivor around a building wall with Nemesis the whip attack is almost unavoidable unless someone has perfect frame dodging if the whip strafe is outside to inside. If you try the same attack with an inside to outside whip drag then the survivor can very easily turn out to avoid the whip. I see about one successful dodge in 100 of outside to inside dodges against building walls.
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@Stormtytan said:
As one who plays both sides of the killer/survivor fence, I think this is a terrible idea, but ultimately it doesn't matter. This was already tried in PTB and didn't make the cut.
Having a heal cap makes sense in a world where you can't kick generators that are at 100% so they go back to 99% progress.
If DBD moved away from 3 gen or gg then we could have a game that focuses on chases instead of 3 gen and tunneling.
The most efficient way for me to play killer is to hook one person three times. Convince me I should ever not do this? Limited healing does that. Being able to turn completed gens back to 99% does that too.
@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3338696#Comment_3338696
k so when are we going to bridge the gap between the worst killer and the best killer?
Good question. No clue. Some killer might never become challenging to play against and will stay as worst killer for better or worse. All I can say is that a lot of killer power are made extremely safe such that the killer player is suppressed from using creative perks to make the killer difficult to escape from and that killer power themselves are suppressed such that the player does not get too much reward from said ability. dbd is really weird in the sense that the better you get at dbd, the more restricted and punished you get for being good. I have no words to describe this.
survivor is also restricted in soloq in term of the amount of information you get to make correct plays at the correct time in a given match. you can get better information through perks like window of opportunity, kindred and bond to make near perfect plays in soloq similar to a swf, but its boring to use same perks over and over again rather then playing more random perks. I think that is why a lot of survivor like playing in a swf because you have more freedom to play how you want to play. with recent UI changes, it is little less restrictive. your post is effectively complaining that the survivor is playing better and is less in the dark then before.
-"dbd is really weird in the sense that the better you get at dbd, the more restricted and punished you get for being good."
It's worse than you think because as your skill level goes up as killer you get to the point where you either need to stop playing, throw matches or switch to Blight/Nurse.
-"survivor is also restricted in soloq in term of the amount of information you get to make correct plays at the correct time in a given match."
This is no longer true. Being able to see gen progress in real time with no callout gives you more information than is fair.
Honestly we need to either buff almost all the killer perks or give killers that are not nurse-blight somewhere between 6-8 total perk slots to balance this out.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3337219#Comment_3337219
the blight had rough game. if your playing at top-level and your not amazing with your killer. you should expect to lose against survivor to equal level unless you play better than them. blight has potencial to outperform his opposition. he is got no problems.
it was ~80% so they go and find that generator instead of starting a new one. This completely breaks the game.
Survivors playing the game properly should not be considering breaking the game. The blight played worse then the survivor therefore lost. that is how games are suppose be.
Likewise there is a mountain of difference between solo players and SWF teams on voice coms.
Your post is complaining about solo HUD matching SWF-level decision making. The gen UI is good step forward to bridge gap between SWF and solo. they do have some other stuff to bridge for soloq survivor but they're making good progress.
DBD doesn't really balance for high skill players.
Previously, it was unable to balance for highest skill players because soloq player were not playing at highest level. Only SWF was. Now it is certainly closer. That is why a lot of killer kept getting nerfed for w/e reason because they were oppressive for soloq. Billy, freddy and deathslinger did not deserve negative changes but they got negative changes because of the whole soloq vs swf level. Hopefully these type of changes get reverted in the future when the game is more evenly balanced between soloq/SWF. other killer should also receive improvements so that killer can more creatively use their power to alter the games outcome(if they are good enough at using the ability). dbd as a whole in my opinion suppresses survivor's ability to optimize their objective(except in SWF) and suppress a lot of killer power as result poor survivor play. They look at kill-rates, see that the kill-rate is high than think the killer is over-performing when in reality the survivor are playing poorly. killer power are not over-performing. soloq survivor is under-performing. Now they should under-performing less often with new UI changes. Most people know that SWF/Survivor playing well is too strong and killer using their ability correctly is too weak. this is why they will need to revert/improve killer powers progressively as they equalize soloq to SWF level. Killer do deserve fair chance to win against good solo/swf survivors. It is just that good solos is not that strong and good swf is obviously too strong(in comparison to most killer cast's power-level).
-"if your playing at top-level and your not amazing with your killer. you should expect to lose against survivor to equal level unless you play better than them"
True did a good job of wasting quite a bit of time. He knows how to play blight and hard countered the chase mechanics extremely well. And then he added insult to injury with the Dead Hard.
-"Your post is complaining about solo HUD matching SWF-level decision making. The gen UI is good step forward to bridge gap between SWF and solo."
Ok so when are we going to bridge the gap between the worst killer and the best killer? Bringing all players up to SWF levels if fine if we give all killers ~9.0 movement speed chase abilities, strong anti loop, and the ability to end all chases quickly.
There are two killers in the game well suited to deal with SWF and everything else is left in the dirt.
We need to see changes so that Trapper, Myers, Doctor, etc. are all within 10-15% effectiveness of Nurse.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3338318#Comment_3338318
My friend, I have good things to do 10 games in row. Take 1 or 2... meme builds even but honestly, lemme play what i want haha
When I play Nemesis I am most playing people with 3000-5000 hours. I run across a lot of people who tell me: I play high MMR. I can watch their games and instantly realize - no they don't. This is the dunning kruger effect.
If you are telling me that you play freddy and win 10 games in a row with meme builds then you are not playing high mmr. This might be true if you are playing in an incredibly weak DBD region that has a very limited player base. I think we all know which continent checks all those boxes.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3336359#Comment_3336359
I never noticed killer takes minutes to injure a person. Because if you don't want to make stupid boon = waste of time, then this is the case.
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Also as I said earlier - killers are not the problem now. 60% kill rate. Killer was never easier as is now after 6.1. there is actually 0 reasons to buff killers any more. This especially is super bad idea.
If you still have problems as a killer after 6.1, then I suggest you watch your games and try to learn from your mistakes. Watch more experienced players. Even people like Otz that currently is a little salty - wins most of the matches without strong slowdowns and busted addons against survivors with best items and perks...
-"If you still have problems as a killer after 6.1, then I suggest you watch your games and try to learn from your mistakes. Watch more experienced players. Even people like Otz that currently is a little salty"
I think you might need to go have a look at Otz's channel. He tunneled every game he played the last time I watched his stream all while saying : you shouldn't tunnel but I need to tunnel this girl out to win.
CMWinter who plays pig has come to the realization that he will tunnel every game or lose.
Truetalent has shifted to only playing killer by request.
What changed? The new hud changes make playing survivor grossly unfair. You have an insane ability to pressure the gens because you know who is repairing and how far along is their progress. It was the uncertainty that gave killers that were not nurse/blight a chance before this update.
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@Rizzo said:
Just a reminder that naming and shaming is against the rules, so don't use this thread to throw shades at people, thank you.
Who exactly are you addressing with this post?
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3337738#Comment_3337738
I do not agree. I think freddy is up there with top 3 worst killer in the game. only trapper and myer base-kit is worse but trapper and myer at least have strong add-on. trapper has iri stone and myer has tombstone add-on's. Clown is also pretty weak at base-kit but once again, he at least has pinky finger which is pretty good add-on for him until dev nerf it to the ground and put -2 bottles permanent on it, then clown will get his permanent pseudo deletion. Freddy has zero good add-on and no real redeeming qualities while having really bad base-kit. Doc has really good 1vs1. he requires a lot of precision and map knowledge to use his shock therapy but if you master his shock therapy, he is very effective tunneller. Current freddy is pretty bad everything. He has bad stealth outside of dream world. He needs m1 hits to activate his ability so people that stay awake make him an m1 killer. His anti-loop when you are in dream world barely works when the pallet is not dropped. pre-dropping pallets makes his snares kinda rubbish. Other killer that have mobility to use gen regression do it better than he does. None of his add-on do anything particularly relevant to help him win. If someone told me freddy was worst killer in dbd, I would believe them. Freddy prophecy of being F-tier killer that excels at legit nothing ended up becoming true. I agree with popular opinion for once. he is F-tier. F-tier for Freddy tier.
In his previous form, I do not think he needed rework because he had redeaming qualities with unlimited wall hack, lower tr for 115% m/s and a massive action speed debuff but he had a lot of drawback in his ability for all these advantages. The drawback were really bad but the positives at least outweigh the negatives. Current freddy has negatives for using his power and barely any positives so I'd argue that current freddy is worse then original freddy. Freddy legit needs rework now but he is unlikely to get one because he already got one. Weaker player did not like facing forever freddy. He was to oppressive for weaker players /shrug.
-"I think freddy is up there with top 3 worst killer in the game"
First off I do not agree MM is one of the worst killers in the game. If we picked some really good players ( and took away their voice coms during the game) I feel like I could do way better with MM than most people's favorite killer streamer could do with Doctor.
In this day and age I only play MM using extra stalk+ either purple tombstone or infinite T3. With those addons he is easily an A tier killer if you understand how to use that kit. If you don't want to take my word for it ( I mained MM for 2 years) go watch coconut's video.
I don't agree Trapper is in the bottom three either. Why? He is "ok" with bloody coil. You play corrupt+ some gen regerssion and bloody coil. You can pick where you three gen and then you control that the entire game. Your power physically turns loops off and that is very hard to get around. If bloody coil became base Kit trapper would jump up to B tier instantly.
-"Doc has really good 1vs1. he requires a lot of precision and map knowledge to use his shock therapy"
I'm going to assign you some homework. Watch Truetalent and Otz play against doctor. Watch them play as doctor. You will discover that Doctor's main kit power is detection. The anti loop was literally an afterthought as he didn't have it when he came out. Doc's power can be completely ruined by latency (just like all grabs in DBD). Both these very experienced players when against good survivors need about 6 shocks to get a hit. That is a garbage tier power for anti loop.
@Marik1987 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3337738#Comment_3337738
Freddy can only teleport when there are gens left. He gets weaker and weaker with every gen completed. In the end, he has nothing.
He has a cooldown at the beginning of the match. When its full, the first gen ist already at 70% or even more if survs use Toolboxes and Speed-Up-Perks (in my matches most of the time this count for 2-3 gens - I have started using Tinkerer again for this information, so that I can use massive Fake-Teleports to buy at least some seconds midchase to save 1-2 of them, either with PR+DM+Tinkerer+Corrupt (all nerfed btw. - my "old build") or CoB, Eruption, Overcharge, Tinkerer-Build. The oldest build Ruin, Undying, Tinkerer, Pop is dead anyway. I tried BBQ, but against the rise of Distortion, its not useful at all. I also tried the classic Enduring/Spirit Fury/(Hubris) Build with Deadlock and NOED or Corrupt, I tried Skillcheck-Otzdarva-Crap, which is totally useless against good survivors btw., I tried Endgame-Builds, I tried things like Make your Choice.
But guess what: The new - best Freddy-Build in my opinion (Eruption, CoB, Overcharge, Tinkerer) - will receive nerfs near future too. Great!!
Is there any killer which abilities gets weaker as more as the game continues?
I agree his only bet is gen-perks, but guess what: they ALL get nerfed (mentioned above, they are Pain Res, DMS, Pop, Ruin, (Tinkerer), Opression has a 80sec cooldown... uff, only Eruption and CoB is worth and guess what - these will receive nerfs too. Just a "little to oppressive", right? - I love it when devs write this 3 words in their Patch-Notes).
What addons do he has compared to your mentioned Clown or Doc? He can weaken himself by using Fake Pallets instead of Snares. Hmm.... Doc gets them on top of his kit. He has 0 addons which benefits his snares or his Dreamworld at all.
Clown gets more bottles, faster cooldown, longer Slowdown-Duration, the normal stuff. Doc gets faster Tiers, longer distance etc.
And Freddy? He can hear things louder. No Snares will last 1 sec longer, no extra tokens, no speed-up by placing them like he was before his overnerfs etc. All he has is copy+paste addons like Woolshirt, Green and Blue-Dress all doing the same, 3 Pallet-Addons, all doing the same... etc. There is nothing in his addon-pass which helps his abilities besides Masterpiece and Sketch to be honest (and if survs are awake, they do nothing lol).
As a Freddy-Main (dont know why i endure this myself), I think you need to bring Red Paint Brush every single game, so that his snares can do something, I guess. The important stuff is: my Teleport is faster ready for me. The massive downside: they run to their clocks. What happens there? They get full immunity against my ability for 30sec, even when I hit them.
So basically I am a normal M1-Killer with no consistent power in the chase, while the special ability I need to focus my build around gets weaker and weaker with every gen I lose.
Should I laugh or cry?
But Marik, play another killer.
I do, I played Freddy one time since 6.5.0 came out, learning Oni currently. He is the exakt opposite. You get REWARDED for winning mindgames etc with high mobility and an One-Shot. Not like Blight having everything for free, no, rewards!
But Freddy? He hasnt even an One-Shot. He is a weaker Clown with a Teleport, which you lose by time. Feels like money you loan and needs to pay back.
Bottom 3, he is in a terrible state. Woth more than 300 games as Freddy alone, I think I can say this with confidence. Nerfs over Nerfs over Nerfs (Basekit or since 6.1.0 every perk he needs to work with. He cant even use all perks in the roaster, because he has no TR in Dream, so things like "Skillcheck-Doc" with Coulrophobia arent possible by default.)
"Freddy can only teleport when there are gens left. He gets weaker and weaker with every gen completed. In the end, he has nothing."
While you're not wrong about this it means Freddy can 3 gen better than 90% of the killers.
"There is nothing in his addon-pass which helps his abilities besides Masterpiece and Sketch"
Once again you are not wrong. Freddy had some brutal addons. The devs went medieval on his kit AND his addons - freddy was brutalized.
Reducing his total snares was fair. Reducing their snare power was not necessary.
Nobody even bothers to learn the "dangerous" freddy addons because that's not a thing anymore. Swing chains/paintbrush live on only in memory.
Freddy with old tinkerer was a monster with multiple gen regression perks.
Freddy is now severely limited by someone running We'll make it OR CoH. He had very good at hit and run gen defense and that's mostly dead.
The problem with killer reworks is that Freddy was only punished and killers like Legion/Pig/GF got a number of positive changes. Pig lost her abusive gear combo - yay. Pig now no longer can have everyone remove traps on the first try. That's an amazing QoL change.
The reality is that we have come to a point in the road with balance where we are either talking about Blight/Nurse and SWF or we are talking about everything else. Nobody really gives any F's in chat for the last category. But the big other three elephants in the room are what are ruining the game.
Who then is worse than Freddy? Doctor and Ring are the most obvious killers. If you don't play the condemn/no hook game then Ring is a worse version of freddy. Like legion she gets the first hit easy and then is in an even worse position. Since we are on the topic - Legion with Iri button and Julie's mixtape is crazy strong. A lot of people say : legion sucks. Again I'll say I could beat Otz or True on "the Game" if they play best doctor build and I play best legion build. Clown with no pinky is worse than freddy but Clown has the option for "Maximum effort".
Largely speaking Wraith is probably worse than freddy on most of the maps. Sometimes I play wraith but if I do you can bet I have purple move speed and purple aura vision. Freddy probably just needs to have some decent addon choices and he would be "ok".
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@K_Nottie16 said:
Feng Min gets way too many cosmetics. I get it shes a fan favorite but i feel like others would get a chance to be a fan favorite too if they actually got cute cosmetics as well. Im a girl so obviously i want cute clothes for my main. Theres a lot of girls who play this game and the only one who really gets girly cosmetics is Feng. So it only makes sense for girls to gravitate towards Feng. My main is Elodie and she doesnt get the recognition she deserves. For me when Elodie came into the game it made me really happy to see someone who looks like me in the dead by daylight world. But her outfits are just ugly. Her cosmetics age her up. There are so many different styles they could do with her and they waste it. The only good outfit she has is the afro punk one that was made by a fan. Its not just with Elodie its with other characters as well. To me Haddie is good representation but sadly not many people main her because she doesnt have a good selection of cosmetics.
-"Feng Min gets way too many cosmetics. I get it shes a fan favorite but"
If people want to buy more clothes for the most popular character- the company would be smart to make more clothes for Feng.
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@captain_murphy said:
Seriously? Break Out and body blocking are now useless with the change. I haven't read a single feedback post where people complained that too many survivors were wiggling off...
There's a difference between useless and "too beneficial".
Low/medium rank killers were losing a lot of hooks to the wiggle change (including most of BHVR's staff).
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@kingcarl2012 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3337478#Comment_3337478
Couple things here,
1. Survivors have 2 basic objectives, Do gens and power the gates, and escape. The only way to do the 2nd objective is to do the first, or have all your teammates die.
2. Killers also have 2 objectives, Prevent survivors from escaping, and kill them. The killers objectives are not mutually exclusive, if the killer kills all survivors, they are prevented from escaping. If the killer prevents the doors from being opened the survivors die. Both of the killers objectives complete the other one.
It is literally impossible for survivors to be trying to do those gens and never creating an opportunity for the killer to get a chance at a chase. The killer is just not doing it, and holding the gens instead of killing.A survivor choosing to run away is not an obligation to chase, killers drop chase all the time for all kinds of reasons, in this case it's because taking the chase would be detrimental to the killers objective of killing the maximum number of survivors.
The killer isnt doing anything to stop the survivors from trying to do gens (Aside from the example of Doctor spam shocking everyone to keep them in tier 3 madness where they literally cannot try to do gens), the survivors are choosing not to do gens to preserve health/hook states, blaming the killer for not chasing you and therefore throwing the game is ludicrous because, and I will say this clearly, When the match timer ends the survivors are claimed by the entity and the killer wins.
End of discussion.
-"A survivor choosing to run away is not an obligation to chase, killers drop chase all the time for all kinds of reasons, in this case it's because taking the chase would be detrimental to the killers objective of killing the maximum number of survivors."
Bingo! As long as the killer is trying to push the survivors off the gens and potentially down them then he is not stalling.
Some of the killers like Doctor can potentially stall the game forever because instead of downing survivors they just keep them in madness level three so they can't do gens and they can't even bleed out on the floor.
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@Marik1987 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3337538#Comment_3337538
Thats wrong. Freddy has a medium Killrate (59,5 - 60,0 %) at the Top 5%. On average, he was on 4th place with 62%.
Thats because he is a Noobstamper with his non-directional Lullaby (All MMR). I assume on Low-MMR he has a 90+% Killrate, because they dont know how to handle a killer without Terror-Radius and Fake-Pallets actually work, because they throw everything without looking behind. Just throw and run, no looping, no nothing.
Just to make it clear: A Killrate of 59,5 - 60% means a 2K most of the time. I can really imagine as a P100 Freddy Main how a 2K gets achieved. Tunneling and a final Camp, nothing else.
Besides that, he has nothing to offer. He cannot stand a chance on higher levels.
-"He cannot stand a chance on higher levels."
Freddy's real strength was that he can teleport and has low-mid antiloop. This allows for him to use gen protection/regression perks better than almost any other killer.
There are a number of good regression perks right now but the best combo requires you to kick the gens.
Freddy has much better chance of winning vs good survivors than a number of killers. For example he is an entire tier ahead of Doctor as well as clown (without pinky).
@Notionless said:
The concept of the dreamworld so the OG freddy seemed interesting to me, i just hope they find a way to bring it back with better execution.
In Theory, calmly working on a gen, to hearing some weird lullaby and then be summoned to some hellish fake out dream world getting chased sounds fun and scary as heck. Especially if you cant know wether or not he is after you when you suddenly fall asleep.
-"The concept of the dreamworld so the OG freddy seemed interesting to me"
It was beyond stupid. It was both incredibly weak and massively overpowered at the same time. To preface this you need to understand that Freddy came relatively soon after Doctor. Before the doctor there was no aura reading in the game. That marked a huge shift that started to delete the stealth playstyle as a viable option. You also need to know that long long ago the game had massive fog that made seeing anything really hard past 20m. This is a picture from a friend of mine.
dbd old fog.jpgOld freddy had to tag you with his power in order to be able to hit you. So imagine needing to get within about 7m and then you use the power (which might have snared you when you tapped it - cant remember). And then after 7 seconds the target fell asleep. Then you could hit them.
Meanwhile anyone outside of something like 24m was always visible to you. Is that not beyond stupid? So there was no escaping a freddy.
Other stupid things included being able to fail a skill check to wake yourself up.
It was dumb not to mention bad and needs to stay away forever.
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@M1_gamer said:
Its pretty sad to see the state Freddy is currently in. He has one of not the most boring power in the entire game. Hes not really fun to play as. (love playing against him eventho its been so long since ive seen him.) hes IMO the most neglected character in the game. Wish my old main could get some love. A more interesting fun power, redesign and some cool cosmetics would be nice.
How do you feel about his current state?
-"Its pretty sad to see the state Freddy is currently in"
The top 5% of Freddy players seem to be getting a 62% kill rate. His kit got nerfed but he can still do some neat tricks like now he can put snares across a vault or pallet and he could not do that before.
HIs snare count was too high before but the speed of the snare should not have been touched. Roll back that one part and he would be fine.
If you're a dream pallet freddy player then I can imagine your pain.
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@dspaceman20 said:
I don't think I have seen this perk on like forever. With a lot of gen kicking perks you think dragons grip a perk that has a pretty decent effect would be use more
-"you think dragons grip a perk that has a pretty decent effect would be use more"
As an idea the perk kinda makes sense. You would think : hey this sounds great.
1) The timer is way too long.
2) Voice coms completely negate the perk
3) Other perks do a better job of protecting Generators either by direct regression/prevention like DMS+Pain Res or just Eruption and fast chases.
What would be needed to make this perk viable:
3) Make it work like Eruption so that you can kick multiple gens and touching one triggers the effect. Anyone touching one of the regressing generators before the 80 second timer ended would trigger exposed.
4) Let killers get synergy with perks so that if you use Oppression - which also has a crazy cooldown then you can kick multiple gens to apply Dragons Grip. You have to wait a long time for both cooldowns to line up.
5) Anything less than both of these combined effects makes the perk a big "nope" as there are just better things to use.
6) Alternatively it could make the entire team be exposed if someone touches the generator. That would make the very very popular - but survivors would hate it and call it oppressive for the same reason they hate MM getting 99% on one player and then tapping the power when hes touching you so that he can kill you with a tombstone.
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Ruin is a dead perk. It had a nice run gg.
Nobody who is good at the game was using it before 6.0 and anyone using it after 6.0 is just out of the loop.
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@Chilli_man2400 said:
The only changes Myers needs is
can activate evil within tiers like Onis blood fury so you can stay in tier 1 as a strategy.
conspicuous actions drains survivors stalk meter so Myers never runs out of stalk.
Evil Within 3 makes pallet/gen breaking speed 20% and stun speed reduced by 50% but doesn’t stack with Brutal,Endurance and Fire up
Bam just fixed Michael Myers
-"can activate evil within tiers like Onis blood fury"
This is the only good suggestion in your list. More than anything else this would be a really valuable QoL change for MM.
There was no reason to make Michael and Legion's powers not be affected by Fire up or Bamboozle. Both of these killers are "meh" and really did not need the nerf.
1) Michael either needs to start with 115% speed or start slow and become 120% speed once he gets into T2.
2) Return multi stalking (how he was released) OR remove the penalty to stalking based on distance OR greatly reduce the stalk needed to tier up.
Considering Ghostface has 1 minute power duration and can stalk infinitely MM doesn't make any sense. Making tier 3 last 2 minutes would be too long. The only solution to balance his power relative to GF is to make his stalk much quicker - more like GF. But unlike GF you can't ever undo the MM stalk and MM will eventually drain you which will balance things out.
3) undo the nerf that made Bamboozle/Fire Up not stack with his power for faster vault. He was one of the only killers in the game that got value out of Fire up.
@Dicerson said:
This killer is bad in every conceivable way. His "normal" playstyle is the weakest in the entire game, arguably tied with trapper but probably not. Yet at the same time he has addons which are extraordinarily toxic to play against, especially in combination with certain strategies. Tombstone piece is the most often cited, but even regular Tombstone can be nigh unbeatable on most maps if combined with Play with your Food and a gamut of info perks to find the obsession quickly.
So while the removal of these addons would remove one of the more toxic and annoying killer strategies, it would fail utterly to actually fix the killer as a whole who struggles to keep up with the ever increasing degree of power creep. Gens are faster than ever before, medkits and boons make healing a trivial affair, and survivors have gotten incredibly good at denying his power and stalling his one single moment of power to the absolute ends of the earth.
He just needs something to be done. I have ideas, but I'm far from the most experienced of players. The above is more or less common consensus, he is at the bottom of every tier list only occasionally not at the absolute bottom. Furthermore, the prevalance of exceedingly overpowered killers forces survivors who play to win to run the broken strats which make them competitive against those OP killers- and absolutely unbeatable to everyone else, especially Myers.
This killer was the entire reason I bought this game, because he's one of my alltime favorite horror/slasher antagonists and I cannot understate the disappointment I feel every time I have to so much as look at his portrait on the killer page- wanting to play him but knowing that it will always result in 10 minutes of unwinnable suffering.
That said, here is my thoughts on what could be done.
First, I don't believe that removing any addons is the correct choice. Being able to Mori outside of hook progress is a major part of his identity and fantasy as a killer, but the way it is currently implemented is absolutely unfair and untenable. He also has the highest number of Transformative addons (Addons which dramatically alter how the killer plays) in the entire game- and it should stay this way. Myers takes alot of forms, and has had a great deal of variation across his movies. Keeping all 5 of his transformative addons is important.
However, baseline Myers without these addons is absolutely awful to play. Many will cite that his power eventually stops working- but this isn't really the issue. Most games end before all 4 survivors have been drained of stalk in any case, and management of a limited resource is an inherently interesting mechanic to play with, and also ensures that he can't truly abuse stalling strategies forever. Making stalk infinite is too much, even if that means making it take even longer to gain than it currently does, and regeneration won't work. If it's enough to enable T3 even when there is less than 4 survivors, then it may as well be infinite when there is 4. If it's not so great as to be infinite when there are 4, then it is so little when there is less than 4 that there may as well not be regeneration. There is no balanced sweetspot. But, as said, limited supply of stalk is not the issue.
The issue is time. When Myers was first released, he was a fairly powerful killer- simply because the game then was much much slower. Even with a technically lower time on generators, there was not a massive number of ways to boost gen progress, healing wasn't lightning fast, etc. There were just fewer perks. But he's been power crept over- he's simply too slow to keep up with the pace of modern DBD. Outside of dramatic, sweeping changes to the entire game that slows it down for everyone, the only change that can make Myers competitive is going to be to Myers himself. Trapper actually suffers a very similar issue, on top of bad map design and trap rng.
The above in mind, here are the changes that I believe would make Myers a competitive killer to be taken seriously.
-Passive Stalking speed is now 3 m/s, Active is 1 m/s
Additionally, nearly all of his Addons would have to be changed in some way.
Tacky Earrings - Reworked to Active Stalking speed is increased to 3 m/s
Memorial Flower - Reworked to Stalking rate no longer decreases with distance.
Boyfriend's Memo - Reworked to Stalking a Survivor for at least 1 second gives your next attack within 1 second +50% lunge distance
Blond Hair - No longer increases amount of Evil required to reach T3 for the first time.
Reflective Fragment - Now works on multiple survivors at once
Jewelry - Reworked to Fully drained Survivors suffer a 10% action speed penalty.
Hair Brush - Amount of additional Evil required reduced to 25%, additionally increases the total available Stalk points by 5 (up to 11.26 per survivor), or about 12.5%
Glass Fragment - Reworked to Reaching T3 inflicts Survivors with Blindness for 30 seconds.
Jewelry Box - Reworked to Stalking a Survivor grants a 5% Haste buff for the same duration the survivor was stalked.
Hair Bow - Now additionally increases the total available Stalk points by 10 (up to 12.51 per survivor), or 25%
Tombstone Piece - Now additionally requires the Survivor to be fully drained of all Stalk Points
Scratched Mirror - Now gives Myers a normal Lunge while in T1
Lock of Hair - Required Evil for first T3 reduced to 75%, additionally increases total available Stalk points by 15 (up to 13.76 per survivor), or roughly 37.5%
Judith's Tombstone - Additionally requires the Survivor to be fully drained of all Stalk Points.
Fragrant Tuft of Hair - Now requires all Survivors to be fully drained of Stalk, additionally reduces the total available Stalk points by 10 (down to 7.51 per survivor)
These changes would accomplish a number of things to both dramatically lessen the impact of the Mori addons, providing counterplay to them, while also improving Baseline Myers and allowing him to properly keep up with the pace of gens and healing. To summarize these effects:
-Tombstone Piece can no longer result in an immediate Mori at or near the start of the game. Since T3 will always be reached at least once before a Survivor has been fully drained, there is a dramatic increase in how long it takes to Mori a survivor via either Tombstone. Not just the 60 seconds of T3, but the amount of time it takes to find and drain a second survivor, and then finding and fully draining the original survivor in order to get the Mori (99'ing this is extremely difficult, since going 100% to T3 off one survivor leaves them with .1 Stalk points. So you might ######### it up and drain all points and not Hit t3 and need to go find another survivor again to get that last little shred). In aggregate, it's a minimum of 2 minutes before a Mori can occur, if two survivors are standing right next to each other doing nothing. If the survivors actually try to hide, or to bodyblock to make fully draining the original target impossible, they can in fact completely shutdown Tombstone and make the Mori near impossible until the absolute end of the game. In other words, Tombstone would be given counterplay with these changes. This also forces a Tombstone Myers to play baseline Myers while waiting out T3s when there is no fully drained survivor.
-When combining Iri Tombstone and Iri Tuft, Myers can threaten to Mori all Survivors, but fully draining all 4 of them is an extremely tall order and will take quite awhile- often so long that 3-4 gens can be completed before entering T3. This is a unique strategy which creates a race against time for both sides, I cannot overstate how often I have been told by more experienced players that this combination is not problematic and is ultimately pretty fair, so I did not change it. Iri Tuft and Purple Tombstone results in only ever getting a single Mori, and permanently losing T3 for the rest of the game- an obviously very bad combination.
-The baseline power change is just to make numbers clean
-The addons Myers traditionally has are all just repetitive number buffing garbage, leaving no reason to use browns or yellows when their green or purple counterparts are just better. The reworked addons now provide a variety of different effects, with browns being mostly minor stuff that is nice to have but not particularly strong, yellows being solidly usable even with nothing else. The Greens and up were not changed very much, since most of them are already usably strong, with exception to the transformatives.
Thoughts? I'd love to hear from people with hundreds or even thousands of hours on Myers. Would these be too much? Too little? Do nothing at all? Community consensus claims that Myers is bottom tier garbage- but perhaps the true OTPs know better? If so, what's the trick (other than using TSP, obviously. Might as well play blight instead)?
Your ideas suck sorry - no offense.
Most of his addons are fine. The few important addons I read that you suggested changing are a huge nerf- no thanks.
It would be interesting if MM got reworked to be regular speed in T1 (imagine current T2). Then when he hits T2 the first time he gets a "normal" T3 like he does now. Then when he gets his power again he would be in infinite T3 for the rest of the game.
Combined with the other changes he is now way more interesting and scary. You only need to change the tuft of hair that gives him infinite T3.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3336848#Comment_3336848
Ayrun was trying to do soloQ streak for a half a year. Tryharding to max. Only restriction was not using key. Everything counted, BNP's, anything else possible. In half a year he couldn't get above 34...
Now can you again say that killers are weak? And strictly soloQ buffs went overboard? When there is SADAKO streak of 100 wins?
Also you talk swf and then compare to all killers. But when I say best solo, suddenly all killers argument is not so interesting right? Because getting above 34 with trapper is much more possible. But when speaking about 4man swf that scrim together, then in this case comparing that to supaalf 550 win streak is unfair... Well guess what. Pick your parameters and then compare.
And about kill rate - I am still convinced devs target of 60% is unfair by 10%. Pvp games should be balanced and both sides should have equal chance - in case of 2 teams that's 50% for both (where any draws are evenly split between win and losses). There was no argument in the forum that would convince me otherwise (all I heard so far is a, match wins but count draws the same as losses or b, that I am biased and illogical or c, that I should welcome being on the loosing end because that's challenge and killers are weaker even if they on average win more. So no actually good argument was given to me)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_N2gUoAXxwThis is a perfect example of how stupid the hud changes are. Spoiler: there are only three hooks in a Blight game.
What changed? Everyone can see that someone was working on a generator and it was ~80% so they go and find that generator instead of starting a new one. This completely breaks the game.
-"Pvp games should be balanced and both sides should have equal chance"
The games that have the best balance have take account for low, medium and high skill players. DBD doesn't really balance for high skill players. This ruins the game when you get to high MMR as killer unless you play Nurse/Blight. I've said it many times because it remains true : the best Doctor in the world is going to be vastly inferior to just an "ok" Blight.
Likewise there is a mountain of difference between solo players and SWF teams on voice coms.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3336642#Comment_3336642
There's a soft cap in place. If you vet vastly different survivors... Maybe it means that in fact you are not as strong as you think?
Also do you feel like coconut/otz/supaalt/hens/spookyloops/..... The list is super long .... Have any troubles winning the game if/when they decide to play super sweaty without handicapping themselves? Or do you get better survivors then they do (especially if they do streaks)?
Do you really feel like they are super minority of players? Because today I had survivor incentived (25% to 100%) whole day, but not a minute of any incentives on killer side.
Or let's go at it from the other side. Take best survivor player there is - say Ayrun for example. Let him tryhard to maximum and play in soloQ trying to go for as long winstreak as possible for half a year without any pause. What do you think. Where will he get himself? Survivor is "OP" so by your words he should get to some ridiculous number right? Like 34.... Yes. 34. There's 100 escape streak on sadako, but only 34 on solo survivor. Because survivors are OP and so killers objectively need buffs, because soloQ got some extra information....
Do you feel bad now? You argue for killer buffs because THE weakest role in whole game got buffs that do exactly nothing for anybody else but them.
Survivor is supposed to get killed 60% of the time. That's what the devs said they wanted and that is the "rate". You look at this and say from that that the survivor is the weaker side.
When everyone is bad at the game killer has an advantage. When both sides have learned a few tricks the game is roughly even. When survivors have become grandmasters and use SWF to always have voice coms - they run away with the game.
-"say Ayrun for example"
Maybe you should look at the hardcore challenge they do. For the most part they play with trash perks and limited items but are very skilled players. The mop the floor against most of the killers they play against.
I would love to see them do a bully mode where they just bring the absolute most powerful things with the intent of trying to completely "run away" with the game.
I think you need to do yourself a favor and go look up the marth experiments.
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@kingcarl2012 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3336638#Comment_3336638
That does nothing in terms of the people who tunnel just for the sake of tunneling, but may reduce some of the tactical tunneling. There is also the issue of the matchmaking being unbalanced, so unless you do it on a scale based on MMR disparity and actually create a proper MMR system its gonna be tough to balance out.
To be clear I am not disagreeing with you, but that is still only a partial solution.
Part of the issue is there are different types of tunneling that are not all equally problematic.
Tunneling at 5 gens, kinda problematic.
Tunneling at 2 gens with a bad gen spread/little to no slowdown and 0 kills, kinda justified borderline neccessary.
As to your suggestions themselves:
1. I have suggested this before, this has little downside and would just help the unhoooked person try to hide with no offensive potential I would also disable loud noise notifications to allow for quiet vaults and locker entry for those 10 sec to help stealth.
2. Honestly not a fan of this one, no issue with the buff to recovery speed but slugging the person off the hook is often used as a sorry didnt mean to tunnel gesture, or to bait the person who ran away from their unhook instead of protecting the person, it is literally the least tunnelly option when you down the unhooked person.
A better option IMO along this line would be a buff to wiggle speed/intensity if downed within 20 seconds that decreases the more you recover. So lets say a 20% buff as you recover to 20% it would go to 15%, 40% would go to 10%, 60% would go to 5% and at 80% it would go to 0%. This would make it harder to tunnel without actually affecting the people who are actually trying to be nice.
3/4. This one is a hard no for me, if people wanna run DS then fine, but there is no way it should be basekit. Good survivors will always find a way to use it offensively, I will cover that a bit more in your deactivation condition suggestion.
5. Way to easy to abuse by sabo squads including dead hard in their builds, wouldnt be opposed to item #1 applying to a wiggle out if within 60 seconds of being unhooked though that wouldn't be too terrible.
6. No collision for 10 sec is too long but for 2 or 3 seconds just so if the killer is right there at the unhook it gives you a bit of a buffer and makes it easier for the killer to go for the unhooker.
The issue with the deactivation being a protection hit is terrible, if the unhooker is healthy you cant take a protection hit, you could make it if you take a hit while survivor is within X number of meters but it still may be deactivated by teammates either unintentionally or on purpose to sandbag.
The real solution is not the stick but the carrot.
Ever since basekit BT the unhooker rarely takes aggro for the person off the hook, taking a protection hit needs to be encouraged more, if the choice is between an injured unhooker and a 2 hit with BT person off the hook, there will be more incentive to go for the unhooker.
Something along the lines of after taking a protection hit within X seconds of an unhook that person gains a buff to vault speed and all medium vaults become fast vaults for X seconds.
A temporary negative buff to the unhooked like a 10% repair speed penalty for 60 seconds after being unhooked
A temporary boost for the killer for base regression and faster break actions after an unhook or a basekit Aura read on all but the unhooked survivor.
-"The real solution is not the stick but the carrot."
This is the truth. What do I get for hooking one player three times? Maximum gen speeds are reduced by 25% forever.
What do I get for hooking three different people one time? Nothing.
These two need to line up so that hooking three people is better than hooking one player three times as basekit.
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@kill4escape4win said:
As a killer I do not tunnel, as a survivor, like so many I do get tunneled, it's a strategy yes but it's very very unfun and boring, it makes you want to slap the killer IRL for it, it would feel good but we can't do that, so why not slap them in game for doing it?
Survivors have 10 seconds of 10% haste and endurance, but it's not enough to gain distance and escape from the killer if they WANT you, especially some killers that are very good at camping like pyramid head which will hit 2 survivors at once and take away the endurance and remove the possibility of using dead hard.
This makes the survivor unable to do pretty much anything especially against killers that have a range ability and ignores pallets or walls.
I have ideas that would punish extreme tunnelers without affecting regular gameplay and not punish killers that actually play the game and goes for others.
Please note that not all of them should be added, they are suggestions on what could be done to help this issue.
ideas:
- Survivors have no scratch marks, grunts of pain and pools of blood for 20 seconds after being unhooked.
- Unhooked survivor recovers 200% faster if downed within 20 seconds of being unhooked and can get back up themselves.
- Unhooked survivors get 1 minute of basekit decisive strike which is stackable with the perk (making it a 6 seconds stun)
- Follow up to n.3, if the killer still tunnels the survivor and gets them again after the second hook, they have 2 minutes of DS and will be 6 seconds again, of course it won't work in the end game.
- Survivor wiggling free from the killer by any means if tunneled recover from exhaustion.
- Survivors no longer have collision when they have endurance from the unhook so they cannot force to take a hit and hit the killer with DS.
All this will be removed if the survivor do any actions at all or take a protection hit (2 protection hits if hit when they have endurance).
This would EXTREMELY punish tunneling behavior and force killers to go for other survivors instead of going constantly to the unhooked one, if they still want so badly to get that survivor, this will give plenty of time for the other survivors to work on gens and possibly save the tunneled survivor with a clutch end game play.
You cannot address only one side of the tunneling. Survivors need to stop tunneling generators just as much as killers need to stop tunneling survivors.
@RaSavage42 said:
Other then fixing the symptoms why not fix the real reason for it....
Increase the base Gen regression... and change the regression perks if they are to much
Base killer regression is 1/4th of one survivor and there are 4 survivors. The killer should be 1:1 with a single survivor if four survivors are alive. Reduce the speed by 25% for each dead survivor. We should not need to use 2-3 regression perks to be able to get value out of kicking a generator.
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@FMG15 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3336583#Comment_3336583
Just because they are not the sweatiest, most tryhard team doesn't mean a SWF is average. Even top tier SWF will not play like this. We need to balance around all players. You need balance for average, beginners and top tier. This is not a game like Rocket League, this is an asymmetrical horror game so there is not really a competitive nature thus you need to make this game enjoyable for good and bad players.
The problem is that there is almost no balance for top tier survivors.
If those 50+ win streak survivors had to play vs only 2200+ MMR killers then the game would be better balanced.
The MMR system is rigged because the effective cap is 1600.
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@LuthirFontaine said:
Why are survivors compared to seal team 6 swf. I see a lot of killer 4ks. If all killers are buffed so everyone can compare to that high tier you are going to killer your low tier ( me) survivor base ahah
The hud change that lets survivors see all the gen completion percentages makes it feel like every game I am playing against seal team 6 even if there are a few solo players.
Even if I win and get a 4k it makes the game far less fun because everyone is way more efficient. It then forces me to tunnel because that is efficient killer play.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3336404#Comment_3336404
"I never noticed killer takes minutes to injure a person. Because if you don't want to make stupid boon = waste of time, then this is the case."
There's no need to be hyperbolic. Even the average person in DBD understands that heals should not take less time than injures, that's bad design. I'm not saying killers take minutes for hits, but I am saying they typically take longer than 21 seconds which is a CoH heal.
"Also as I said earlier - killers are not the problem now. 60% kill rate. Killer was never easier as is now after 6.1. there is actually 0 reasons to buff killers any more. This especially is super bad idea."
This is flawed reasoning. You shouldn't quote kills in reference to balance as they are skewed by a multitude of factors that make it near irrelevant. Even the devs have said repeatedly not to draw conclusions from those kill rates because of this. Also I don't think it's the easiest it's ever been for killer, too many people are watching their favorite streamer repeat this instead of actually having the game experience themselves.
"If you still have problems as a killer after 6.1, then I suggest you watch your games and try to learn from your mistakes. Watch more experienced players. Even people like Otz that currently is a little salty - wins most of the matches without strong slowdowns and busted addons against survivors with best items and perks..."
I don't think you have very much experience at high MMR if you're feeling this way. High MMR matches against equally good SWF groups is a completely different game than lots of the player base experiences. Most high end killers only win through being forced to tunnel someone out asap, that's how bad it is.
There's a difference between winning and why you are winning. Most matches killers win are through survivors making lots of mistakes, if both sides play perfectly you will lose almost every time as killer. This is why kills is not indicative of balance as I mentioned earlier, this is confusing correlation with causation.
It's more important to understand why someone is winning than just if they won.
-"I don't think you have very much experience at high MMR if you're feeling this way. High MMR matches against equally good SWF groups is a completely different game than lots of the player base experiences. Most high end killers only win through being forced to tunnel someone out asap, that's how bad it is."
Quoted for truth. It's very clear by what you say Gandor that you take certain ideas as "truth" that are only absolutes when the game is not 3,000+ hour killer vs ~20,000+ hour group of survivors.
@Yoshirama said:
This is just a bad idea, killers can just tunnel (more than they do) knowing that in some point survivor can’t heal, will camp the 3 gen because there’s gonna be easy hits. Perks that requieres protection hits are gonna be useless and camping is gonna be even worse because you gonna be downed trying to unhook.
Ok, let’s say it happens, you have to compensate survivors in exchange, remove thanatophobia and gift of pain, when broken old iron will and no mither needs to be basekit, you can’t get hit when unhooking and it can work as old BT and maybe we can be good.
-"killers can just tunnel... knowing that in some point survivor can’t heal"
Why would I need to tunnel? There wouldn't be people healing more than three times per game so there would be far less body blocking. That means chases would be shorter. It would also prevent the "weaponization" of built in borrowed time as it would move you one half step closer to being permanently broken.
Consider that I could just play Blight and Nurse and have a supreme advantage and I could tunnel anyway- nothing changes. With this change you have the option to see some of the rest of the killer cast. It would be a very good indication for game health if survivors said, "Oh no it's a nemesis!", with the same sincerity as if it were a nurse.
There are several things that need to change to put DBD in a healthy state. One of them is that every killer that isn't Nurse/Blight needs to be closer in power to those two killers.
Tell me from your imagination an original idea to buff all the other killers by a single blanket mechanic without buffing Nurse/Blight.
What else needs to change in DBD?
1) chases need to be shorter so generators can be defended more readily vs efficient survivors (also known as : more pallets that have a long side and short side and are "unsafe". The game needs fewer "you must break this or I can loop it forever" pallets.
2) the other killers need to be able to play the game in a way so they dont automatically lose if their 3 gen is broken (also known as : all maps need to be 9000m² or smaller).
3) There needs to be mechanics to prevent tunneling by both sides. Imagine for example this base mechanic: If one survivor is hooked then the generator with the most progress immediately begins regressing (at the speed as if kicked by any regression perks such as Overcharge/CoB as if the killer had kicked it) and cannot be interacted with while the survivor is on a hook if the killer is more than 16m away from the hook and is not chasing a survivor. This will only affect one generator at a time and ceases to function if one player is removed from the game.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3336552#Comment_3336552
21s heals with boons is the same thing as saying eruption on each trigger slows down the game by 120,75s. Like under ideal conditions, you are right. Under realistic conditions, it takes anything between 21s (a rare thing, but possible) and literal minutes - if it's even possible at all.
too many people are watching their favorite streamer repeat this instead of actually having the game experience themselves.
But that's not true. I say it from my personal experience as well as from streamers. I do play killer. I just play survivors more. And winning as killer or at least not loosing is easier in my personal experience. It's not 100% (it can be very near that if I decide to take some nasty things for a change). And of course I also get sometimes 4 out. But it's generally easier to win as killer (or at least not loose) the it is for survivor - at least for me.
I don't think you have very much experience at high MMR if you're feeling this way.
But this is exactly it. You loose some games. You loose them bad. You win some games without effort - even feeling bad for the other side. The important thing is, how it averages out. And I already wrote how it averages in my games in previous paragraph.
Most matches killers win are through survivors making lots of mistakes, if both sides play perfectly you will lose almost every time as killer.
I don't feel this is true at all. There are some insane things killers can do - forcing people into 50:50 or outright winning stuff. What I feel is, that you don't have chance if you take chill build while the other side takes "nukes". No matter which side we are talking about. Like there's literally nothing you can do against good (not even god) spirit with MDR + amulet + 4 regression perks. Same for the other side - 4man stacked with BNP's.
-"I don't feel this is true at all."
And that tells me we are playing a completely different game because you are not playing vs only high MMR lobbies.
Mind games work very well vs bad players and often backfire vs the very best. They do not work vs the very best players because they know where to stand on every tile to prevent a 50/50 from being an option. Some of them do things that I am not allowed to say what so that they have an advantage.
Boons offer fast unlimited healing for the survivors. To say the least the killer should be able to break bones when they kick the boon. Imagine how broken the game would be if you could only overwrite a hex with a boon. That's not a very realistic game change but how about if the killer could just relight blood fervor infinitely unless all the bones were broken? You would see that totem used way more often and survivors would need to waste time breaking every totem every game - making CoH far less useful.
DBD has a rule set for survivors and a different rule set for killers.
1) Survivors are allowed to tunnel generators but Killers are not allowed to tunnel survivors.
2) Hexes are high risk with meh reward and boons are low risk with high reward.
3) SWF is fine but Nurse and Blight ruin the game.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3336184#Comment_3336184
Boil Over is one of these perks that are unbelievably aggravating to play against if someone pulls it off, but it's very hard to use. It's just overall an unhealthy perk and should never have been buffed.
The old Iron Grasp was literally the same thing. Nobody wanted to wiggle against it.
@Krazzik said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3336357#Comment_3336357
The reason Iron Grasp isn't commonly used is because the things it counters are either rarely used, or aren't that strong. If for some weird reason tomorrow Breakout became meta and survivors start body-blocking the hook way more often than they do now, then Iron Grasp would become much more used.
I say it's in a good spot because it counters certain things well, it's simply that those things aren't currently meta. It's still an important perk.
-"The reason Iron Grasp isn't commonly used is because the things it counters are either rarely used, or aren't that strong"
You also forget the alternative that AGI, STBFL and Mad Grit counter things like break out/sabotage better than IG.
So not only does Iron Grasp not counter anything important - it is not the best thing to use to counter certain perks like Boil Over or Breakout when they do appear.
If we look at a perk like remember me there is some possible use for that perk. It does that specific job better than everything else. What does IG do best? It wastes a perk slot.
@PowZapBamWoofMeow said:
IG is better than Agitation, is not a meme perk, is versatile, is underrated, and is almost necessary in today’s DBD:
- No more being bothered by wiggling or by Boil Over. Say goodbye to bumping into things! With agitation you may gain speed but you are still prone to the wiggle effect and more so Boil Over. Not with IG.
- Can get to almost any hook even ones further away when you down a survivor in the corner of the map
- almost necessary when running a Scourge build - guaranteed scourge hook every time
- Great when going against Sabo squads or just the random trying to sabotage a hook. Just turn and find another hook, plenty of time !
- 1 body blocker won’t be problem. Run this with agitation and mad grit and you’ll never have that issue. But that’s overkill in my opinion because I don’t run into that many body blockers to warrant 3 perks dedicated to that.
I run IG on every killer, always, along with Lightborn most of the time unless everyone in the lobby has tool & med kits.
-"IG is better than Agitation, is not a meme perk, is versatile, is underrated, and is almost necessary in today’s DBD"
How could you possibly believe this?
-"No more being bothered by wiggling or by Boil Over"
The largest benefit of Boil Over is that it hides the closest hook. If the killer knows the survivor has the perk you can look for a hook before picking them up. The most annoying benefit of the perk is the increased wiggle but you can fight this naturally if you understand how to move properly. No perk is required except in very rare or contrived circumstances. An example would be when a survivor picks a two story map and brings Boil Over+ Flipflop AND has a friend who can run underneath with breakout while they are being carried.
-"Can get to almost any hook even ones further away when you down a survivor in the corner of the map"
Agitation gives a longer carry distance due to increased travel speed. This is an undisputed fact known by the community but apparently not you. Back in 2016 the old IG gave a longer carry distance but that was a long time ago.
-"almost necessary when running a Scourge build - guaranteed scourge hook every time"
AGI does it better. When you are against Boil Over and you have AGI you need to be careful how you move so you don't get crazy "drunk sway" from the combined effects of increased wiggle+increased speed.
-"Great when going against Sabo squads or just the random trying to sabotage a hook."
Count the grunts on your shoulder you can drop them if you have a firm grasp of these mechanics. You will not be able to pick them up again but slugging is still viable. Once again : STBFL is better than IG for sabo. With ~2 stacks you can often get in one punch you would not be able to do otherwise. Most people can't call out STBFL with only a few stacks so they never see it coming unless you are playing Demo. With 8 stacks you can punch something like an extra 3-4 times.
-"I run IG on every killer, always, along with Lightborn most of the time unless everyone in the lobby has tool & med kits."
And you're wasting two perk slots every game. If you had someone show you how you could probably clean up your mechanical weaknesses so that you would not be a victim without those perks.
If you watch killers over a certain hour count they never use Lightborn except in "all perk" challenges. It is completely unnecessary. The same goes for Iron Grasp because it is outdated and there are other perks that can do everything it can do better.
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@mr_Beast_Artist said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3325514#Comment_3325514
So let the developers add a solid wall why don't the killers break down these doors? In the same school, silent hill has an alternative path to the 2nd floor and I want to run there as a survivor, but they never break it
-"silent hill has an alternative path to the 2nd floor and I want to run there as a survivor, but they never break it"
If the silent hill path could only be used by killers then I would regularly open it. That map has 2 access points naturally to the upstairs portion. This means if I hook someone near a corner upstairs then survivors have to go all the way to the far side of the map to use the other stairs and then come all the way back to the far corner. This creates pressure.
Some of the breakable walls in DBD are well done; the wall upstairs in Iron Works of Misery is a perfect example. Once upon a time there were 2 windows near that door that were a literal infinite loop (in part due to outdated and broken game mechanics). Before the wall is broken it lets you drop a chase once per game. Once it is gone it is a trap to go upstairs.
You might not have been playing DBD long enough but once upon a time there were no drops in the Thompson house or Iron Works of Misery. Both buildings could be "controlled" by a killer watching the stairs. This was pressure in a similar way because it was possible to keep someone upstairs and unable to do anything while they were up there.
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@AnnaEliza365 said:
This is a question for killer mains. What is, in your opinion, the ideal survival/death ratio that BHVR should aim for? 50%? 60%? 75%?
Personally (survivor main), I think 70% is a pretty good kill rate to aim for.
Balancing the game on kills was a huge mistake.
The smart thing to do would be to have a sliding scale for pips. Ideally the killer pips if they did well and no pip if they did poorly.
For survivors you get 2 players with a pip , one safety and one depip.
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@Krazzik said:
Iron Grasp is already a decent perk. I mean it pretty much means that survivors will almost never wiggle out, even with other survivors bodyblocking for them.
It's a good perk for newer killers especially but I mean it has it's place in backpack builds. If Boil Over ever became meta and the wiggle effect was extra obnoxious than Iron Grasp would also see more usage.
This is all ignoring the fact that Boil Over is not a very good perk outside of people abusing safe spots on certain maps.
-"Iron Grasp is in a good spot"
It's terrible actually. It only gets used in meme builds or maybe if you are in low MMR. What does it grant you? Most of the time you get nothing you would not already be able to do - hook a survivor.
If you want to hit people while carrying survivors there are already three better choices : AGI/STBFL as well as Mad Grit which is much weaker but better than IG.
Let's go back in time to 2016 and remember pre-nerf Iron Grasp. The old level 1 of the IG perk is stronger than the current version of level 3 of IG.
The old Iron Grasp was so strong that it made people not want to wiggle against it. It is roughly equal to Boil Over. So either we can restore the old IG or we can nerf Boil Over.
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@shogoaluni said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3336087#Comment_3336087
ah okay! first off, thank you for such a good response! i guess you can say im new-ish to DBD so I haven't (obviously) taken these things into consideration. ive also been wanting to dip my toes into trying to play killer but i have absolutely no idea where to even *start* strategy wise. i did notice when i got into iri, tunneling became more common. i just couldn't not figure out the fine line between the killer being toxic, or doing it because it's strategic. when it first started happening to me, it was beyond frustrating, but the more i play the more i noticed how common it is. me being the ignorant little survivor main i am, i never thought about how annoying gen rushing could be. at the end of the day, we are both getting our objectives done. thank you for your input!
-"i just couldn't not figure out the fine line between the killer being toxic, or doing it because it's strategic."
Consider for a moment what I get if I hook three different survivors one time vs if I hook one player three times. I get nothing for three individual hooks. Survivors asking killers not to tunnel one player with three hooks in a row is like killers asking for survivors to get all 7 generators to 33% before they get a single generator to 66% - which would be completely ridiculous.
-"i never thought about how annoying gen rushing could be. at the end of the day, we are both getting our objectives done."
The killer's objective is to defend the generators. If you defend a "three gen" (I assume you know what that is) it's a huge boon to the killer.
Breaking the killer's three gen is roughly equal to removing one survivor from the game. The difference with Nurse and Blight is that because they can move around so well AND chase so effectively they can more or less turn the game around regardless of how far apart the generators are from one another. An extreme example is Nurse on Midwich as she can go up/down instantly. Some killers literally might have to move ~20+ seconds to go from the bottom to the top. And imagine if they had to break a pallet and then pick up a survivor and carry them to a hook. That could be 45 seconds of downtime which is insane.
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@Nazzzak said:
This would disproportionately affect solo, as well as new survivors trying to learn to play more efficiently. I come equipped to heal myself because there is no guarantee someone else will. I've been matched with swfs who prefer to leave me injured as a nice meat shield for them - because the killer will zone in on the injured person over them. Coordinated swf teams would just navigate around this, take turns taking chase or bodyblocking, depending on who still has health or heal states. Slugging would become more prevalent once a killer knows which survivors can't be picked up and healed anymore.
Add to this, Iron Will was nerfed to heck, so not only would a killer have visual tracking (scratch marks), they'd have consistent auditory tracking with nothing survivors could do to dampen it. I honestly think alot of people would stop playing and the game would struggle to hold onto new players.
-"Slugging would become more prevalent once a killer knows which survivors can't be picked up and healed anymore."
That's not how it worked in the test. You were broken after X number of heals as if you had no mither. You could always be raised from the floor.
@Crowman said:
I don't think we need to cap the amount of times a survivor can heal like this. If healing is truly a problem, then let's give healing Freddy wake up treatment, each time you are fully healed it takes longer to heal.
That would also work but it would reward the killers that can more readily injure such as Nurse/Blight.
@Steakdabait said:
Only if we also get limited regression per gen
Only if we get the amount of time any combination of perks/items to speed up a gen to a limit if 10% in total. In other words you can't even use more than one charge of a BNP. In fact why don't we make toolboxes sabotage only?
@HugTechLover said:
1) terrible idea. This would kill the game for a lot of people.
2) as a blight main, I can tell you this would change absolutely nothing about how I play. I’m still going to destroy teams using only m2. I wouldn’t care about a perma injure, makes no difference, and I can confidently say that on behalf of the other GOOD blight mains.
-"as a blight main, I can tell you this would change absolutely nothing about how I play"
We could all just do as you do and play one of the two killers that actually works. The fact that you say you would play exactly the same tells me it is a good idea. The best killers wont get any buffs and all the terrible ones would massively benefit.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3336091#Comment_3336091
From my experience there is more then enough high mmr killers and I am pretty sure I already hit soft cap with both roles (mind you I don't say I am the best player there is). Maybe it's a regional issue if you have that experience? In Europe I feel fine playing both roles (even if I play survivors way more, I do play killers too). And especially after 6.1 it does not feel super hard. Compared to what it was years ago at minimum.
Anyway limiting heals is absolute no-go for me. It would remove me from the game as survivor and as a direct result also as killer (I would loose social contact associated with the game making it meaningless to try to hold onto it). So specifically this idea in my eyes would 100% kill the game (for me)
Let me know when your average survivor player is ~4000 hours and has played in multiple DBD tournaments.
There is a reason Blight and Nurse are the killers that get used in tournaments.
@AssortedSorting said:
A limited resource that starts full at the start of the game and that through chase a Killer will eat away at until the point of no return.
In effect that already exists in the form of Pallets.
And that's where you are wrong because as I already mentioned Blight and Nurse largely ignore pallet mechanics.
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@Gandor said:
Do this and you lost me on this game.
My playstyle and the reason I have a lot of fun forces me to take many (very safe) hits. You do this and I can no longer play sabotages (and I sabotage as a solo player instead of being in a squad).
If this went on, you could compensate-buff survivors to 120% base speed for all I care making them win 99% of games (actually this would also make the game not fun - but I think you can guess my point). I am out of this game
Most people haven't realized yet but the Hud changes are just way too much. Most people I know who were killer mains quit years ago. I don't think many people are going to keep playing killer unless some massive buff comes along as a response.
This affects the players at high MMR the most but it will have a trickle down effect. If there is no one in queue but someone who is 1601 MMR then they will be the one selected to play the 2400 bully squad. That killer will either switch to a more efficient killer or stop playing the game. Either outcome hurts the game longevity.
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@shogoaluni said:
I always play survivor so therefore I have no idea how it is to play killer so I wanted y'all's perspective on tunneling. If you do tunnel, why do you do it? I am not asking out of saltyness, I'm genuinely curious if it is such a needed game strategy. Do you always tunnel, or is there something a survivor does to influence it? If you do not tunnel, why don't you? What do you do instead of tunneling to still have a productive game? I want to understand what's going on inside killer mains minds so it will help me get less frustrated by getting tunneled out some games. I also want your perspective on this type of stuff since I never play killer, i have no idea how it feels to be on the other side so I don't think it's fair to judge until I get some knowledge from the other end.
-"I'm genuinely curious if it is such a needed game strategy. Do you always tunnel, or is there something a survivor does to influence it? If you do not tunnel, why don't you?"
It's very simple : as the skill level/efficiency of the survivors you play against increases the need for the killer to tunnel one player out of the game for a win also increases. Due to being massively better killers both Nurse and Blight need to tunnel less than every other killer in the game. If you are playing those killers and still tunnel one player out then you are just going for easy games.
I start every game with the intention of tunneling. I can always "go easy" if the survivors are super chill but I can't regain momentum if I play nice and the survivors are trying to finish the generators in ~4 minutes.
You didn't ask but what makes me play mean? If survivors prioritize finishing a generator over getting a hook rescue then I will usually punish the team by making that player stay on the hook for a second stage. And then when they get off the hook I will hit them immediately with the intent to tunnel them out of the game.
When survivors play efficiently the killer must do the same thing as a reaction. Once one person is dead the game dynamic massively changes; It makes slugging extremely rewarding.
What makes Blight and Nurse Different? These killers have massive speed advantages and can defend almost any generator setup on almost any map. Overall they have the shortest and most successful chases against survivors and are not very much affected by pallets compared to the majority of the killer cast.
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@Toaster427 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3334507#Comment_3334507
because it is killer sided, and that's straight from BHVR.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/MH38SFBE1D3L/all-mmr.jpg
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/7BD8EC8PZT2Q/high-mmr.jpg
Having ~60% kill rate is the expectation BHVR is trying to put in place. In other words that is the desired outcome. If the kill rates were 70% then that would statistically be killer sided.
Also not to burst your bubble but the survivors run the game at high MMR. As your skill increases you play with better team members. When you start only playing in 3-4 man SWF squads and start making crazy call outs the game becomes trivial unless you are against Nurse/Blight.
That's messed up.
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@mr_Beast_Artist said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/363018/this-is-how-tunnelling-should-be-nerfed
I agree to make it so that the killer cannot hit/see/or track the survivor who has just been taken down.
The hooked survivor should get the same one-hit resistance as Ash's Gauntlet which will work for a guaranteed 1 minute and not inflict a deep wound, thus making him unattractive to the killer.
-"make it so that the killer cannot hit/see/or track the survivor who has just been taken down."
And to make that fair : block all generators over 33% progress while that survivor is on the hook ( if it is their second hook then block all gens with 66% progress or more).
You need to realize survivors have a gens before friends policy and that is why a soft camp goes to a hard camp. Go ahead and finish your gen while Dwight is on the hook. He's going to pay for what you did with a second hook state loss. I will likely lose a second generator for it but then I will just chase him down on the unhook and he's removed from the game.
At that point I can slug one player chase another and the game slows down to a crawl.
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@Riski said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3335298#Comment_3335298
What was those about again? I remember them happening but I didn't really care at the time, I just played normally and didn't see a difference in my games.
Solo players didn't see a difference. But people playing in a SWF were waiting 10-15 minutes for a match.
If the killer dodged your lobby then you went right back to the match making screen for another 10-15 mintues as this was when the killer was the host of the lobby.
When the game was small it made a huge difference when somewhere close to 2000 killers signed a petition and stopped playing killer. More just stopped playing because the game was a complete joke at the time with infinite loops dominating the scene.
The fix for all this was "super bloodlust" which was one of the most killer dominated times in DBD.
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@Mandy said:
Quality of Life for solo survivors is most definitely the goal of this feature - its still nowhere near the level the information that's obtainable in a SWF, which is partly why I'm emphasising quality of life here, as it's going to feel a lot better.
A group of SWF playing together doesn't necessarily mean they're going to be a crack seal team, they're still limited by their abilities/skill - giving solo players information is going to help for sure (a much needed help!), but it's not going to make them invincible as they still have to figure out what to do with the information presented to them.
As with any change that we make, these are things that we will be monitoring.
The buffs you give killer to compensate better be massive - like basekit deadlock AND more things like breaking a pallet does not remove bloodlust.
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@AverageKateMain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3334516#Comment_3334516
The more you talk and justify yourself, the worse you look compared to 4 man swfs. I can garauntee if someone did this to you, you'd want this to be changed
I want SWF to be changed. I have said this for ~6 years. It completely breaks the game and is unfair. I have played with a friend who was streaming at the time and it is what it is.
SWF being the most powerful force in DBD with zero cost is not good. Change SWF so that it is a choice with some ups and some downs and then it will be balanced.
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@AverageKateMain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3334680#Comment_3334680
You guys were already doing this before the changes. All you're doing is playing normally
You presume incorrectly that I will continue to play killer.
I remember the original killer strike.
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@drsoontm said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3334668#Comment_3334668
Oh, it happened but it wasn't too common and it was a riskier venture except for SWFs (the bigger the better). I didn't mind as I could punish it dearly.
My issue is that for some reason that's almost all I'm getting (except for the full-newbies group that sometimes pop in my trial after I lose a couple of matches : talk about adding insult to injury.)
I'm not sure how to fix this. I play both roles and it's obvious these changes are a positive thing for the solos. But on another hand, as killer I can only play efficiently now. This is getting stale fast.
I've watched a recent video from the Otzdarva guy. What he says in it makes sense. I used to play "nice" most of the time, except against bullies, at least for the past 2k hours (I've got more than 3k).
I'm not sure I'll dare to play survivor anymore. I find games usually quite relaxing compared to killer but it the trend goes full tunnel, I will not like it so much, I think.
Oh, and nerfing the good things is a recipe for diaster. Buffing the weaker parts is the way.
-"I'm not sure how to fix this."
Survivors got base kit anti tunneling but killers did not. We need Base kit deadlock with rollback protection. If two gens get completed then one rolls back to 99% completion. Make the perk by the same name extend the blockage for +30 seconds (60 total).
Only an ignorant person is going to say that survivors rushing their objective does not require the killer to rush their objective.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3334680#Comment_3334680
Simply knowing what a teammate is doing does not put solos anywhere near the level of a SWF good comms. I've benched players for bad comms and denied players outright after tryouts because of comms. "I'm on a gen"'/"I'm on a totem" are not comms. You're telling the team nothing by saying that. The person in chase has no idea where "the gen" is. A comp call-out is "I'm on a gen (here) at (percentage)" or "I'm in a chase (here) going (there). I used (pallet)." The new HUD for solo queue doesn't even begin to approach that. Basic SWF comms do very little against a good killer, and very few SWFs have good descriptive comms.
-"Simply knowing what a teammate is doing does not put solos anywhere near the level of a SWF good comms."
It's more information than knowing nothing. Do not forget the devs intend to add the completion percentage as part of the hud - as per the patch notes.
In the old times before the Obsession chase wiggle nobody knew anything that was going on. It made players more passive. When everyone knows exactly when the chase ends it lets them be more aggressive with zero risk.
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@MoNosEmpire said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3334638#Comment_3334638
I've already addressed half of this, read previous comments.
And FYI there is no such thing as "gen tunnelling" and there never will be so please stop referring to it as that. Now if you mentioned Gen Rushing, that would make sense.
-"And FYI there is no such thing as "gen tunnelling" and there never will be"
Then I refuse to acknowledge there is any tunneling in DBD. Survivors play efficient and do their objective as quickly as possible and so does the killer.
@RaSavage42 said:
Ok so what causes Tunneling? And why can one side get away with doing it but not the other???
Gens being done- that's a given... but it isn't the end of the world (is it worth more to lose a Gen or 2 at the start of the match or the last 2 Gens and the gates being at 99%)
Bodyblocking- that's a choice made by the Survivor (whom just got unhooked)
Quick Saves- that's a choice made by the Survivor (whom just got the save)
MMR screw job- it could happen...
SWF's- not so much... but the Killer can't see if it's true or not
Map- sure why not... Maps are either Killer sided or Survivor sided not many that are truly balanced
Now on the Survivors side... cause they do it as well... but it isn't brought up as much
Early hooks- fair enough... A way to gain pressure
Gen perks- ok... might as well finish a Gen before the Killer can get any regression on it
Maps- same as I said before
MMR screw job- it happens
Killer camping- yes might as well get all of the Gens done that you can
3 Genning- mostly Survivors fault... but a Killer can force it
Start of the match- yes cause the Killer doesn't have any pressure... but chose wisely (see point above as to why)
Gens being harder to do- that's a bit shaky but whatever
-"Ok so what causes Tunneling? And why can one side get away with doing it but not the other???"
Survivors don't get to interact with the killer if the killer tunnels. Killers don't get to have meaningful chases if the survivors tunnel generators.
We need Basekit Deadlock with rollback protection. If two gens get finished at exactly the same time just roll one back to 99%. Make the perk of the same name extend the blockage for +30 seconds.
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@Veinslay said:
Hello,
I got home from another day at the office tonight, and I powered up my gaming console entertainment system to play some Dead by Daylight. I find out that I have an Oni daily to down four survivors while I'm in my power. Okay, no problem, I can do that. Now, I'm very not good mechanically at using Oni. I only play him for dailies or challenges. I'm also only an average killer player. For the very first game of the night, I get to enjoy this extremely fun game of Dead by Daylight.
I implore you to watch the video of this match below. I would love to hear one compelling reason why this perk should continue to exist in its current form. Its absurd. It needs to be changed to do something completely different. Thanks for watching. I apologize for the jerky camera movement, I can't do anything about it. It's a combination of console camera movement and some stick drift on my joystick. I don't really notice it when I play, but I understand it's very noticeable in the video. And once again, I'd like to reiterate, yes I know I'm not good with Oni at all.
Why do you look at the player tab when you pick someone up? You can be moving as you do this to make it harder to get a blind so they dont know exactly when you "stop" to start the animation.
Also why do you play with a controller? If you can't use a mouse then I feel for you. Several times you get PoV tech'd because you play on controller. Once upon a time Billy had better steering on controller than he did on mouse but we are way past the 2016 era when this was true.
With those questions out of the way..... DH is a problem because it gives a third health state without making the survivor pay for extra healing.
The solution then is to make DH have a penalty. Make healing take 100% longer if you have DH equipped. This will encourage the DH user to play hurt so they have two health states not three. Also mending time could be increased by 50% while using DH so that this is not abused.
Until DH gets changed the best thing to do is hard tunnel someone who has it. You can't DH if you immediately get hit off the hook. It wastes their sprint burst opportunity because they already have a sprint burst from the unhook action.
If Oni is your main this won't apply but you could play killers who can use STBFL to make them get even less distance when you hit them. Oni Nurse and Blight all got hit real had by DH changes because they have a limited window to hit during their power use.
I am NOT saying this is a you problem but looking at your video I can see a few areas you can improve.
1)You lost your first down because you went for some extra hits. Dead dog is extremely problematic for this and it is just something you should not do. Once she crawled to the locker she had complete immunity. Most of the time it would be the right call but not on this map because you have to look away from the wall.
2) You used demon dash a few times when you really didn't need to. One of the secrets to MM is to use the power in defining moments; when blood is rare the same applies to Oni. Maybe you were cycling the power because you had plenty of blood. If you would use it more sparingly when you dont have lots of blood then bravo - skip this suggestion. The only upside of those early extra hits was that you had plenty of blood. Unfortunately the gamble did not pay off.
3) Let's talk about your perks
I. Corrupt was much better before 6.0 because it didn't instantly poof on the first down. Killers like Plague and Nemesis can get a lot more out of it than Oni after the 6.0 changes. You can "do stuff" to the survivors without downing them that helps you tremendously.
II. No Way Out is an overhyped perk. I put this in the "win more" category because it's great if two or three people are dead to secure one more kill. But if no one is dead what do you get? Also there's nothing better in the game currently than just tunneling the first person you hook out of the game (and then if you do that you get no value for this perk). A perk that gives you the most benefit when someone is dead is always a very questionable perk choice for me. Finally it is important to note that super gen rushers who finish the gens really quickly can leave you with maybe two unique characters hooked. In that case NWO becomes a "lose more" perk.
III. Pain Res is your only gen defense perk. That's not going to cut it. You either need to go 2-3 perks for gen defense/ or end game perks like NWO, Bloodwarden, (Remember Me - usually not worth it but...). If you had brought Pain Res, Jolt and Deadlock this would have been a completely different game.
IV. Floods can be very good on Oni for all the same reasons as Nurse and Blight if he has his power ready. But what if he doesn't? As you play better opponents you will find Floods failing you more often.
V. Putting all of this together I think you played a solid 8/10 game here mechanically. But when I look at your perks and the value you got I feel like you didn't get much value from the perks you chose. I would give your perks something like a 4/10 for effect. Maybe this is a bad sample and that happens but I don't see your build and go "omg massive synergy".
Let's say this is your "goto" perk build. If you took some time and learned a different build you could probably have a higher overall potential. I can't tell you what perks you need to excel with Oni. But if all your games start to go like this then I can say that there is a more powerful perk combination out there waiting for you.
@Blueberry said:
Don't let people gas light you man. You had a few DH that were avoidable for sure but many more that weren't. I think people seriously expect you to pause mid charge to prevent the forseable DH with how slow the 1 shot is but now that would've given them another loop around the pallet, you'd eat a pallet to the face, or they make the window with that pause. Or somehow the survivor spinning in your face a couple times to still click the DH mid swing is somehow your misplay.
To win that you needed to have tunneled someone out. That said, the survivors could've also won that a lot earlier if they were actually trying to win instead of messing around a lot, which they were.
"To win that you needed to have tunneled someone out."
He's 100% correct. Sadly this is the state of DBD with efficient SWF players.
@Pulsar said:
I'm a big fan of "Dead Hard (With Rizz)"
Almost better than "Girl (With Rizz)"
All things considered, you fell for DH in the EXACT same way 3 times. I understand you can auto-pilot at times, especially after a long day of work, but that's not really the perks fault.
Nea got extremely lucky at the window of Shack. You pretty much could've guessed what Cheryl was gonna do when she ran towards you after being unhooked.
I'm just not really seeing anything super crazy here. This team wasn't super good either and you definitely could've steamrolled them, one person Dead on Hook at 3 gens? Yikes. But I get it, you wanted to play a little nicer and that's a good attitude to have and a valid way to play.
-"All things considered, you fell for DH in the EXACT same way 3 times"
There's a difference between falling for the DH and having a limited attack window with Oni's power. That being said - If OP played a different killer that could use STBFL like Nemesis/Demo this could have been a completely different game. Nemesis zombies work much better if you tunnel and Demo is very good at teleporting back to the hook to tunnel someone out.
@Mockingjay_S451 said:
So sick of people crying about Dead Hard. It’s beyond a joke now. I don’t even use the stupid perk and even I am getting angry on behalf of the people that do.
DH was nerfed to the ground and killer mains rejoiced. It was every topic on this forum when it happened. The chance of getting it timed perfectly is such a small window and it can so easily be baited.
It’s a skill issue at this point, not an issue with the perk.
"So sick of people crying about Dead Hard. It’s beyond a joke now."
DH still has a massive pick rate by top players because it makes chases longer just like the pre nerf version. It lost the ability for bad players to use it well but very good players can still use it to waste a lot of time in chase.
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@Riski said:
Firstly, when I speak of "swf" I'm namely referring to people who play to win and use comms as an intentional advantage rather than a group of friends having fun while chatting on discord, I'll refer to the latter as "friends". Regardless of what you think punishing friends for playing with each other will never be a good idea and even if swf is op a nerf like this would kill the player base of a multiplayer game.
Many people site the communication swf can perform in a match as the biggest strength I would disagree. Perks and a keen eye can often get you more information than people would believe and although coordinating the location of the killer or perks they're using is nice, this information is usually not useful as the killer is in a chase or this is information that survivors can infer as individuals. Even then many people see these as the best uses of in-game comms and the new hud doesn't provide any help with this.
In-game coordination is nice but pregame coordination is stronger, think about the number of matches you see as killer with 3+ circles of healings or other team perks, completely excessive and unnecessary, the person with deliverance being found first as everyone else hides or one survivor sending every to a map like Garden of Joy with the best build for the other survivors to not take it seriously or go for memes. Now imagine matches where people do coordinate builds and playstyles before the match so they're not stacking team perks for no benefit, making sure the person with deliverance is never found first or that everyone has their best perks before loading into Garden of Joy. The strength of swf isn't knowing what people are doing in the match, the strength of swf is knowing what people are doing before the match and planning around it.
People like to say solo queue is high variance between teammates, maps and killers but with a swf you can completely eliminate one of these variables and ensure it's good, you can do this with maps too if only one person uses an offering. The new hud does nothing to help this and pregame chat exists but doesn't help console or give enough time in a 60-second lobby to be anywhere near as good.
So don't worry killer players, this isn't armageddon and the second coming of the antichrist, not every player is going to be a swf comp team just yet. Survivors have gotten stronger yes but not by an insane margin and the parts of swf that were the most powerful are not in the hands of everyone now just the parts that help the game be a little less infuriating for solo. Considering, according to devs, most players are duo anyway, I don't imagine this has a massive effect on most survivors as it's.
1)Take 4 tournament teams from one of the last DBD tournaments.
2)Randomly assort them so that each team has 1 player from each of the teams.
3)Give one of these four new voice teams voice coms.
4) Do not let the teams plan out their perks/items before the game.
What happens? The team with the voice coms win. Everyone involved is a really good player but the difference is that the teams that can communicate are more effective.
That team can say things like :
There's a hex totem where I went down.
The killer shack generator is 90% completed.
If he leaves me for a few seconds I have unbreakable.
Keep doing generators I have deliverance.
Playing against 2x teams of 2 man SWF used to be "fine". Now with the new hud these four players play much more like a 4 man SWF. That's not fair. What you're telling me is that I need to only play Nurse/Blight every game to compensate. And I need to tunnel one player out with the first three hooks while spreading pressure.
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@Blinckx said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/363184/3-minutes
Because there are other hooks nearby i can easly reach, unless we're in midwich. Even with 4 p.oaks there's always an hook i could reach. Sure you can go with sabo too but then if you adopt this tactic i'll start to slug and camp more than ever
Some of the farm maps can have very abusive corners. There are also massive blind spots on the edges of the new crow map.
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@Erenior said:
had a match vs a huntress that was extremly skilled with their hatches. after the match i joked that the mrr works great again... and the huntress told me he decided to lower his mmr and let everyone go for several matches.
is that a thing? so you can then stomp not so experienced players?
Otz does it all the time on his killstreak challenges. I noticed this recently that he prefers to let the 4th player go.
If I get 6 or more games in a row with 4k you can bet that the next game will literally a SWF team with ~30k hours playing against me.
@Chaos999 said:
You can. It's called smurfing.
Though it usually takes a whole bunch of 4 escapes to get 1 or 2 easy matches if you 4k again.
Definitely not worth it for the large majority of regular players, I believe.
Try it for yourself. Get as many 4k's in a row as possible (when not playing Nurse/Blight/killer with amazing iri addons) and then see what legendary survivor heroes you get to bring you down. As long as it isn't extremely late at night you will get shut down by some incredible team.
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@drsoontm said:
Since yesterday, my games as killers have been a lot of parallel-gens/gens-before-friends.
Of course, with the gen progress indicator allowing accurate timings, this is the easiest way to win.
I guess that now, if I want to get consistent progress the main option is tunnelling from the start, with a side of camping.
What world do you live in where Gens before friends was not happening in your games?
If gens get finished while someone is on the hook I respond by moving closer to the hook. They made it clear they want to finish part of their objective so I have to do the same thing.
@Blinckx said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3334248#Comment_3334248
I know and I'm totally in favor of extreme tunneling and all other tactics but it's BHVR's fault that they see a huge buff as a simple QoL without thinking about the consequences. I laugh at those who think that, after such a heavy change (as far as I am in favor of this change), there won't be even more aggressive playstyles.
The change in itself is right and dutiful and also necessary but it should have been accompanied by an opposite balance, for example Corrupt Intervention basekit or other changes, this was not the case and now, slowly, every killer will come to the sole and logical conclusion that he must start tunneling/camping/slugging from the first moment of the game and without any respite if he wants to be able to win, especially if he uses an M1 killer or a weak killer ( sadako ? Freddy ? )
It's really quite simple.
The smart and easy thing to do would be to nerf SWF. Add the rule : no character/perk/item/offering repeats in a SWF. Lock all changes except costume while in queue. Add a perk display while in the SWF lobby so you can see other players perk loadout.
They wont do that because survivors are would pout. The forum would have 27 pages of "revert the swf nerf."
Instead they buffed solo queue to make solo players more efficient. I was already hard core tunneling every game anyway before this update. How do I tunnel more to compensate?
DBD has not been a fair game for a long time. Nurse and Blight ruin the game for casual survivors. SWF ruins the game for casual killers making only Nurse and Blight viable against SWF. This is a feedback loop that makes everyone more unhappy.
Nerf all three things that are way too good and then bring the bad killers up to where they are about 15% weaker than nerfed Nurse/Blight.