DBDVulture
DBDVulture
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@MoNosEmpire said:
Its clear that tunnelling will always be an issue, yes its a "strategy" but it becomes obnoxious when 9/10 games that's all you ever see.
I propose a cap on tunnelling. How it would work would be by the following;
- If killer tunnels to win in a game
- The next 2 games the killer will be unable to hit the same player twice
- If the killer rage quits/dc's in any of these two games, it will add +1 to the tunnelling cooldown timer
This would not only make the game fun again, it would make the game fluid again too!
Survivors tunnel Generators so killers respond by tunneling survivors. If we are going to address tunneling we need to address how it can be prevented for both sides or not at all.
There needs to be a base mechanic where hooking three different people gives you more than just hooking one person three times.
Deadlock needs to be base kit and have rollback protection so that even if computer bots finished 2 gens at the same time then one would get rolled back to 99% completion.
Change Deadlock to just extend the timer by 30 seconds.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
What is the post of this thread? I mean, aside from another us vs. them?
My prediction would be that almost nobody would care about an indivual Hook Counter for Killers, yet the Devs decided against it, because they want to avoid tunneling. And I would not care about this either, it takes 2 Braincells to remember who got hooked, IMO this information available or not does not change anything.
There's no need for hook counters if I'm always just going to kill the first person I hook. And the way DBD is going is that I need to always chase the person I hook first until they die.
If I am playing Killer and I am not playing Nurse or Blight - then I need to tunnel the first person out every game no matter what.
It would be fair if both sides had the same information for hook counters. The old hud didn't tell anyone who had been hooked and that was more fair than the current hud.
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@mr_Beast_Artist said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3329122#Comment_3329122
trash perk as it happens that it can be used only 1 time per game if the killer decides to tunnel you
This perk requires you to be a "hard chase". You use this perk to force a hit to help keep other allies from being tunneled. Block the Killer's path so they are forced to hit you. Quite often this can help an ally stay alive for 30-40 seconds. The rest of the team might finish the last generator in that time.
Better yet if the killer ignores tunneling your friend and now chases you so you get hooked for the first time near the end of the game.
One of the reasons I almost always bring Bamboozle is because Lithe is so popular. You can close windows and force people to take "bad vaults" to trigger Lithe so they don't really get very far. If there is only one vault you can entirely prevent the perk's use sometimes.
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@AverageKateMain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3330485#Comment_3330485
So you're opening up someone's stream in lobby to not only see if they're a swf but you're also looking at their perks and loadout as well? Interesting
It's not against the rules. And since it's not against the rules I'll do anything inside those boundaries to equalize the massive bonuses people get from playing in a SWF.
My favorite is finding a 4 man SWF stream on coms who calls out exactly what they are going to do. Looking at how poorly the game goes for people in that scenario shows me that I do the right thing by listening to their coms.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3332482#Comment_3332482
For me it happens for all day but at the evening. From night on it's survivor's incentives until say 5pm. At 5pm it depends.
But still on average the incentives are most of the time on survivor.
It's so nice we are making progress.
But equipping broken killer or broken addons give much better advantage then comms. And in my experience the difference is massive. Playing against blight with double speed is much different from C33+alch ring. The difference is by huge margin larger then comms vs no comms. Actually comms SWF survivors do go down against me much quicker then solo - they tend to use flashlights and sabotages (meaning free hits) way more then uncoordinated soloQ group that just genrushes. Those games are often won at the very start.
-"But equipping broken killer or broken addons give much better advantage then comms. "
-"Playing against blight with double speed is much different from C33+alch ring."
A good SWF is extremely hard to beat unless you play Blight/Nurse on quite a few of the maps in DBD. That's messed up. You're not wrong that Blight and Nurse have the strongest kits. Nurse just had a rework and lost most of her best toys. Her range addon is now the rarest tier of addon so it won't be something you can use often.
Blight needs a massive nerf AND so does SWF. Losing one game to a SWF bully squad often turns killers into hardcore tunnelers. So why not remove the ability to bully? No character/item/perk/offering repeats would do exactly that.
I could rattle off how we nerf Blight but that would make for a long post. Trust me I want all the broken things removed.
@AmpersandUnderscore said:
There are a ton of base kit killer buffs planned for patch 6.1 across the board, like a 10% speed increase for chase-related actions. I hear bloodlust is also getting a pretty big buff.
Current estimates are that this will increase kill rates by roughly 10-15% after it goes live, which will put every killer above a 50% kill rate, including the weakest ones like trapper. Most killers will be over 60%.
-"I hear bloodlust is also getting a pretty big buff."
Unless the change is something like : keep bloodlust until you hit someone it probably won't matter. In other words if they changed it so that dropping chase and breaking the pallet didn't make you lose bloodlust that would be significant.
One of the only things I liked about VHS is that the killer (monster) got rewarded for every single hit.
The problem with blanket buffs is that anything you give Trapper will also affect Blight unless you specifically go back and buff Trapper. Is Trapper getting a complete overhaul? He's not so it won't matter. There is an extremely easy fix for all the "non movment" killers : you make them move at 120% speed base kit. Poof! Now Pig and Trapper are a threat because you can't greed pallets.
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@Tostapane said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3329605#Comment_3329605
it's like eruption but inverse: when you'll find people that are bad at looping, this perk will be easily counterable(not a big problem), but when you are against people that know how to run tiles this perk essentially become a 3rd health state (making games unplayable since most of the times all the survivors will bring that cursed perk into the match).
Again the issue everyone seems to have with DH is that it becomes a third health state. Make survivors "pay" the time back so that they have to effectively complete the equivalence of two heals to be full health again.
If people were running DH so they didn't have to heal and still got two health states that would be fine. DH allowing you to have three health states is completely broken.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3332165#Comment_3332165
Sure. Take those tournament players. Pick 4 best killers playing same killer - say pinhead. Now allow one of them to use all gen slowdown perks and the others can't. Now check which killer will get best score.
The point is - comms of course give advantage. But it does not matter. Even given the fact that comms exists, in 5% of best killers the kill rate is 61%. Way over fair 50%. So do we want to nerf killers instead?
Also it's funny you say killers are less desirable. I see almost always incentives on survivor side. Meaning there's too many killers most of the time
-"The point is - comms of course give advantage"
It's so nice we are making progress.
-"it's funny you say killers are less desirable. I see almost always incentives on survivor side"
That does not seem to be the majority of players after the last hud update. If it is for you then you should enjoy the easy xp.
The only time I notice a survivor incentive is when there are not many SWF teams online so many surviovr mains dip their feet into the pool and play killer. This happens daily early in the morning and sometimes early in the afternoon.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3332171#Comment_3332171
such an exhaustion would be about as stupid as killer's hit exhaustion.
Like this killer already had hit within last 30s so let's normalize and make him freeze for 10s after hit to normalize chases. Just plain stupid. It's bad enough we still have bloodlust. No need to "normalize" skilled interaction vs "I screwed up but want to win anyway" even more.
-"It's bad enough we still have bloodlust."
Bloodlust is in the game because there are often RNG combinations of tiles that can make it nearly impossible for many killers to get a hit around very strong concentration of vaults/pallets. Bloodlust would be fair to remove if each tile in theory only had one possible tile it could chain together with and then there was a dead zone that needed to be crossed either because you just got hit or you used lithe or another exhaustion perk.
If you don't think Bloodlust belongs in DBD then you really don't have much of a concept of chase mechancs.
@Milo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3332171#Comment_3332171
WoO doesn't make you amazing at looping you still need to know what you're doing.
You can drop every pallet in the game, but if you don't finish gens by that point, then you're most likely gonna lose anyways.
I could agree with nerfing it's range. But giving it any sort of cooldown will just make it a bad perk again.
-"WoO doesn't make you amazing at looping you still need to know what you're doing"
And while this is true it seems rather clear that the very good players who use it are playing more efficiently. Windows allows players to finish a game with more of the pallets used.
This is where we can look at statistics. Take the top 5-10% of players and look at the average time of their chases. With one simple test you could determine if players who used Windows had a significant advantage in chases over players who did not.
But then we would run into a very simple statistics error with data collection. You were "chased" by the killer for a minute but that chase cut out three times. Another player was chased for 40 seconds with an unbroken chase. According to the statistics the second chase was "longer".
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@AverageKateMain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3331552#Comment_3331552
Killer players will literally tunnel people at 4 gens and 1 DC. You seem to not understand that tunnelling isn't always a gen thing at all. Lots of people tunnel simply because the don't like someone in game. Let's not use gen progress as a be all end all arguing point
-"You seem to not understand that tunnelling isn't always a gen thing at all. Lots of people tunnel simply because the don't like someone in game"
You don't know the random people in a match. You don't repeatedly play against Eric the bully who beats you up every day after school. If I play 10 games I will at most see 1 person again unless the player pool is very small due to the low number of people in the high skill pool or late hours.
My game plan is to start tunneling at five generators every game. I've been conditioned to play this way because survivors always want to finish the gens as quickly as possible. Survivors always want to break my three gen setup but killing one member of their team on the third hook is roughly equivalent to the survivors breaking my three gen.
@DragonMasterDarren said:
By all means, please do explain why a perk that SoloQ players have no way of knowing when it’ll activate and cripple for them for what feels like several years, while also pretty much doing nothing to SWF Groups with voice comma, is fine as is and isn’t in need of a rework
It's very simple. Change the perk so that if the killer kicks a generator and then someone goes down two things happen.
1) The generator can't be interrupted for ~45 seconds.
2) The generator loses 10% regression instantly.
Now SWF and solo teams are equally affected. The survivor can stand there for 45 seconds and wait to get on a generator that will likely be regressed at least 20% if not more or they can run to a different generator. During that 45 seconds they could heal themselves very slowly with self care.
Either way SWF and solo queue are equally affected. The perk remains strong but not oppressive.
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@Milo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3331508#Comment_3331508
They can do that without a perk. This perk just helps them do that.
We should figure out why WoO is now so popular when it wasn't even after it's buff. Did 6.1.0 changes really shake up the chase meta that much to warrant WoO? Or do people just not have anything else to run? Did they figure out that planning your escape ahead of time was so good?
WoO is taking the place of Iron Will pre-patch. For one Perk slot it allows you to be very strong in chase and still be able to use an exhaustion perk.
If we added a "pallet exhaustion" system where you only get 2 pallets that you can throw instantly before being hooked then WoO would see almost no use. Am I suggesting we add pallet exhaustion? No.
Either way you look at it - Windows allows a survivor to be able to spam pallets in an unhealthy way.
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@Akumakaji said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3330163#Comment_3330163
Dude! I am all for making Hexes more viable and offered some pretty good ideas of how to do so in the past ... but you can't have the cake AND eat it. You gotta chose, doing bones has been the solution to NOED since Hexes were introduced into the game with the Hag and it has been thrown so much at survivors that it became a meme in itself. We can't change this. Impossiburu.
-"doing bones has been the solution to NOED since Hexes were introduced into the game"
And when the game launched NOED was not a hex and could not be removed. Nobody is using NOED in regular games except very new players. It's been nerfed to a point where it is guaranteed to be removed because it literally tells the survivor team where it is located.
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@Ithiria said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3331524#Comment_3331524
Because that's not what wins SWF games
I guarantee you see a lot more SWFs than you think you do
They win games by having 4 good loopers and slamming objectives
Good players who win more games are greatly assisted by voice coms.
Imagine the following experiment:
Look at the last major DBD tournament that had a close final. We take the top four teams and randomize the players. In short we take one person from each team and make four new teams. We randomly select one of those four teams and they get to use voice coms. The rest of the teams do not get to use voice coms.
Since every team has very good players the team that has voice coms (all things being equal) is likely to win compared to all the other teams that are forced to play "solo".
Talking enhances the ability of a good player and makes them great because they have extra information they did not pay for with a perk.
@VaporLion said:
The way you balance SWFs is to raise soloQ on a similar level, which is what they currently are trying to do. I've heard people say things like "give SWFs less gen progression -x%" which is just stupid imo. This way you would be punished for playing with friends. Or if you play with strangers where you dont have voicechat, you would be punished for no justified reason. There is however other things the Devs can work on to lower the potential of SWFs. One thing i meantioned in another post is that Eruption or DMS with SHPR can be called out. Those strong meta perks get countered by voice-com, which definetly shouldnt be the case. You could also argue that survivors getting Kindred at base would make it more even to SWFs. However i feel like seeing the Auras at all times takes a bit of the immersion away that DBD has. So i feel like they shouldnt do that one.
So let's think about what you've said just now. Nerfing SWF would be punishing those SWF players.
But buffing solo queue to put everyone on the level of SWF is punishing the killer. If no one wants to be punished for playing in a SWF - then why would anyone want to be punished for playing killer? The Killer role is already heavily punished because you are playing against four people. A mistake that makes a chase 20 seconds longer will cost you 60 seconds against the other three survivors as each had 20 seconds extra to do whatever they wanted.
Remember that Killer has always been the less desirable role to play. What are you going to do if nobody wants to play killer anymore because everyone plays like a super sweaty SWF?
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@versacefeng said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3331534#Comment_3331534
Large maps cannot be played by non mobile killers without 3 gen tactics.
Let’s not project now!
Large maps + 115% speed killers = an eternity of shift W on large maps.
You either tunnel one person out from the first three hooks or you three gen.
Look at CMWinter who plays pig. He's really good but at the end of the day he plays pig.
You can find games where he gets comp dropped on Coal tower and loses- so you can imagine what happens if he plays on one of the 11,000m² maps vs a similar team.
@Aurelle said:
Yeah I've seen it. Those two gens always spawn the same since the update. I'm just hoping it's a bug. A gen used to always guarantee spawn there on old RPD, so maybe that has something to do with it.
-"Those two gens always spawn the same since the update."
It's almost as if the devs realized survivors were using RPD offerings and getting free escapes.
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@feechima said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3331508#Comment_3331508
Seeing pallets and vaults is greatly underestimated as you can cut off routes before the survivor even gets to them. Also pressure them into zones where there are no pallets, and abandon chase when someone is clearly at a really strong tile. If you are following someone through 6-8 pallets you are following them for too long. It'd be better to try and find someone else out of position. ZT isn't used because slowdown perks are favored over chase perks and you also have to think ahead instead of just following a survivor from tile to tile.
Not very Sound advice when the person was on death hook. I won the game in question but they almost finished one of the last three generators three different times (were over 97% completed). I played the game nearly perfectly as I don't think I missed more than a few whips.
As I said before the game had 2 tournament winners in it and they commented me on my skill.
@RainehDaze said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3331345#Comment_3331345
Knowing where the pallets are doesn't really help much if I physically can't close the distance before the Survivor gets there. If I could, then the presence or absence of a pallet is not a determining factor in this interaction. <_>
It's nice that someone gets it.
@feechima said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3331508#Comment_3331508
Seeing pallets and vaults is greatly underestimated as you can cut off routes before the survivor even gets to them. Also pressure them into zones where there are no pallets, and abandon chase when someone is clearly at a really strong tile. If you are following someone through 6-8 pallets you are following them for too long. It'd be better to try and find someone else out of position. ZT isn't used because slowdown perks are favored over chase perks and you also have to think ahead instead of just following a survivor from tile to tile.
I have a good memory. You also need to realize that every survivor will delay the use of pallets early in the game when you reach a certain skill level. So there was multiple places where I had already been looped at the pallet earlier in the game and the pallet was conserved by a body block or dead hard - or they took the down not feeling the pressure at the moment.
In other words I had already ran past these pallets in a chase sometimes during two or three other chases.
Your suggestion about using ZT is about as useful as if I told you that you need to run Rookie Spirit to prevent 3 gens. On almost all the maps both sides know exactly which gens at a glance will cause a three gen setup (for some maps we could draw the possible locations before the map loads).
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@Gandor said:
Showing it before the match would result in lobby shopping which is a bad thing.
Showing it after the match would be actually reasonable. You lost not because it's map XYZ, or because addon/item X was in game. You played against someone that has 30% higher MMR and you just stood no chance - the only thing you can complain about is lack of players so that matchmaking could not give you better match.
At the very least if devs don't want to deal with complains how matchmaking matches then against people with vastly different values (but it happens regardless to some degree), I see no reason to at minimum show us our own MMR value. As was said for some math people it would be very nice to know which killer is where and how I compare my killers to my survivors. There should be no reason not to show it AFAIK
-"Showing it before the match would result in lobby shopping which is a bad thing."
Which is why almost everyone says : let me see the MMR of everyone after the game is finished.
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@JPLongstreet said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3330485#Comment_3330485
You've obviously well thought out your post here, and also have some detective-work-backed-paranoia from too many super sweaty matches, so I do not want to simply discount what you're saying here.
From what I've observed of the devs moves over the years, they focus their changes primarily on the casual middling groups of players. Those not veteran experts nor absolute newbies. Meaning they aren't focusing on the top level of play, where you prolly are as well as most of your opponents. This should always be kept in mind when we suggest changes ourselves.
Putting aside the possibly dubious "screen sniping" part of your post, which for all I know is indeed fair game with streamers, I do have one direct problem with one aspect you brought up:
The lobby dodging, or shopping around, or whatever is such a problem where matchmaking is concerned. The current system has just one shot at a fair-ish match, and the dodging and resultant backfilling leads to the lopsided matches others come here to properly complain about. I get that you are attempting to avoid SWF at all costs, but it is borking up the matchmaking as well.
It doesn't really seem to matter for me to a degree- every match is sweaty. The last game I played I played (yesterday) was against a 4 man SWF and they picked RPD which is a super easy map for me. I controlled a 3 gen in the main room and they were powerless.
You can call me paranoid if you want but I would like not not need to tunnel every game. If I know I am against solos I usually try to play nice. If it's SWF's I just tunnel the most opportunistic person out.
Fundamentally speaking DBD has been one step away from killer being miserable for most of the game's existence.
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@AverageKateMain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3330165#Comment_3330165
That's pretty hypocritical to say
I play both sides. I want a fair game when I play survivor or killer.
People I play survivor with say : why is the killer tunneling me? I say it's because he lost 2 gens in the first chase - that's exactly what I would do.
I want the tunneling of gens and survivors to stop. Most survivors only want the tunneling of survivors to stop not realizing that is a reaction to the generators being tunneled.
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@indieeden7 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3330503#Comment_3330503
You do realise that the map was literally JUST reworked to reduce its size? 3 gens are not something that should happen without some sort of effort put in by the killer.
RPD still has lots of god pallets. It did not go from a ~11000m² map to a 8999m² size map.
@Rudjohns said:
Remember when people say RPD is survivor sided?
When there is only 1 gen in the main room the map is survivor sided.
@LuthirFontaine said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3330503#Comment_3330503
"Every map should have a powerful three generator setup that the killer can choose to defend and it is up to the survivors to break."
Yeah nothing more fun the game going into a cold war where both sides just kinda look at each other haha
-"Yeah nothing more fun the game going into a cold war where both sides just kinda look at each other haha"
I chase people but if they shift W then I just return to the 3 gen.
Large maps cannot be played by non mobile killers without 3 gen tactics. This is what you need to ask to be changed.
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@Ithiria said:
The problem with SWF isn't even really SWF, it's when you get a sweaty team in a situation where you haven't come prepared to play a sweaty game, effectively being caught with your pants down resulting in getting absolutely destroyed. If I'm playing nurse with good perks and cross paths with one of these squads, then I'm not upset at all, it's actually good that im getting opponents that match my intensity. In contrast it can feel pretty bad to be playing ghostie with goofy perks and to get insulted after a bad game.
Sweaty teams though are very far from the majority of SWFs, so nerfing SWFs would just hurt ordinary people who aren't sweating.
Honestly I don't mind bully teams, they're just kind of goofy and they're almost always throwing games to have a giggle. It's honestly fun for me? BHVR even removed locker flashlight saves which was a great change to make maps less exploitable. That's just my personal experience tho, they're really rare too, if they were more common I might dislike them more.
-"The problem with SWF isn't even really SWF"
That's not true sorry. The problem with SWF is that you get free perks worth of information. What does the killer get to compesnate? Do they get more bloodpoints? No they get less because the team plays better against the killer. Does the killer get any extra perks? No.
Why should I play against a SWF as killer when I can just shop around and get a mostly solo lobby?
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@thrawn3054 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3330524#Comment_3330524
Old DH had no counter. Current DH does so it is no longer problematic imo. As for Eruption I've made my suggestion as to what to do with it before but I'll repeat it here. Increase the regression to 15% and block the gen for 25 seconds. You have almost the exact same amount of regression that way without the incapacitated effect which is the actual problem.
New DH has no counter if you are attacked by Nurse/Blight and other killers with a timed duration attack. New DH also can force a killer to swing at a pallet and you get hit getting a free speed burst and get to save the pallet. If he doesnt swing you can save the pallet and DH and do another lap.
Since DH can be used as a reaction to a lunge it is much stronger than you seem to think.
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@Halloulle said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3330510#Comment_3330510
My man, that is how statistics work. You collect X amount of data over Y time to have a sufficient degree of reliability. This may or may not overlap with your personal, anecdotal experience playing a role.
The devs said for ~4 years : SWF does not affect escape rates. Then they realzied that it does and allows SWF to escape up to 15% more often.
They wanted a 50/50 kill rate and suddenly decided that now we need ~60% kill rates.
@VaporLion said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3329254#Comment_3329254
you cant balance around swfs. You dont know how strong they are together. They could just que together because they met each other over the internet and not even communicate over voice chat. Also a good 4-man swf will always be stronger then a good killer. so who would you que those strong 4-man swfs against? Also im pretty sure MMR currently has no impact on your matchmaking at all ( and if it does its very minor ). Que times would be longer if MMR played a biger role which is something a lot of people dont realize or think about. My opinion is. Have MMR play a slightly biger role than it currently does and its perfect. I remember those times where quetimes were long and trust me its not fun to wait more than to play.
-"you cant balance around swfs. You dont know how strong they are together."
And refusing to touch them drives killers away. SWF needs a limitation to make it not be the strongest thing in the game that is necessary to win but also comes with zero drawbacks.
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@Tantamountain said:
I didn't mention SWF, I mentioned
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3330451#Comment_3330451
I think you're saying this because you went up against an organized SWF on voice comms a few times and it forms the basis of your opinion.
I never play SWF and I'm constantly getting destroyed as a survivor. 80 to 90% of the time.
When I play killer, I almost always get a 3 or 4k. Even against organized skilled players.
If you always lose at survivor and always win at killer it possibly means :
- You are likely at low MMR
- You are extremely skilled at killer
- You don't understand how to loop efficiently/pressure the right gens OR you are playing with people who don't know how to loop/pressure gens
@feechima said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/362546/can-we-nerf-windows-of-opportunity
Then try using Zanshin tactics and maybe you'll be better in chase because you know where all the pallets, vaults, and breakable walls are. Fair=Fair.
ZT doesn't have the same effect for a killer. You don't need to find a pallet to get a hit but survivors need to find them to avoid a hit.
@Milo said:
It's really interesting how something can receive small changes that were mostly just QOL at the time and still not be used that often. Yet when other perks got nerfed now it's a good perk.
I might be biased, but no, WoO shouldn't get nerfed. Unless a range nerf. Reverting it to a cooldown or giving it a deactivation condition would just make the perk feel awful again.
Do you think it's good for the game that a survivor can run from pallet to pallet to pallet and throw pallets to the point where the killer has to break 6-8 pallets?
That seems unreasonable to me.
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@thrawn3054 said:
Eruption is just unhealthy for the game. Same as DS and DH used to be.
What do you mean DH used to be unhealthy for the game?
It is wasting just as much time as it did before. Good players are using it with almost the same frequency they did before.
Eruption needs to be changed not nerfed. Add a new generator status where the generator cannot be interacted with by anyone. The generator regresses at a hyper increased rate and nobody can stop it.
This way the survivor can either stand idle waiting 30+ seconds for that status to end, heal, do a totem or run to a different generator.
Eruption can then work equally well on swf and solo players. It can still be a strong perk for killers and not be crippling to play against.
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@mr_Beast_Artist said:
one sentence - Why can't survivors see each other's perks? What is the problem with adding such a function next to or in the lobby.
I don’t see the point in taking perks for auras for survivors or totems since they don’t give anything to the owner, the ace perk for luck is generally rubbish since it doesn’t add up, and what then do you and another survivor have a useless aura? Why not make it so that the owner would receive a bonus of 5% more and leave the rest like that.
-"the ace perk for luck is generally rubbish since it doesn’t add up"
Once upon a time it did. I played with a group running four copies at the start of rank reset (back in those days each month = completely fresh rank restart with no MMR). We would average one purple item every 2nd or 3rd game. And while luck does not affect item rarity now - it did once upon a time. I am 100% positive it did before because we had multiple games with luck where we got 2x purple items per game. Then with no luck we had no purple items for ~8+ matches.
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@SkeletalElite said:
The problem with COB, OC, and Eruption is that the fact they affect multiple gens simultaneously heavily encourages 3 genning with these perks.
Why would you do anything else if youre running them. It's hard to use them to their fullest potential if you're NOT 3 genning because it's the only way to consistently get the most value from them.
Ruin got around this problem because the survivors could permanently disable it, so it wasn't a solution that lasted forever like the current meta
Jolt gets around this because it only works in the area where you die, which means it won't always work in the way you want it to.
The fact is that the current meta heavily encourages constantly kicking gens while never chasing survivors because eventually the survivors will slip up, even if they are really good. The root of that issue is that you're able to delay for such a long time if you never actually commit to chases.
Of course eruption has the issue that being able to do literally nothing for 25 seconds just isn't fun, but it would still be a problem for balance even if you just switched that block the gen for 25 seconds. I think this because it would still encourage that same boring gameplay of just hovering around gens until the survivors give you an inch
Perks like pain res and pop are the healthiest slowdown. They require you to take risks and interact with survivors and get a reward for doing so. Pop should be buffed back to what it was like, or at least close to what it was like before 6.1.0. Ruin too since it can be disabled, with the caveat that ruin should not work with pain res (a gen regressing from ruin shouldn't be a possible target for pain res)
There are two killer strategies that work when not playing Blight/Nurse.
- You hold a three gen and hook people who make a mistake inside that three gen.
- You chase one person until they are removed from the game.
Which one do you want me to use?
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@Halloulle said:
Chill, my man. - The SoloQ QoL is not even a week old. It takes a while for statistically significant changes to show.
The order is as follows: Buff SoloQ until the differences between match outcomes in SWF and SoloQ are not statistically significant anymore. Wait until match outcomes have stabilised [aka a) everyone has gotten used to the changes b) if people were "at the wrong MMR" they are now in the one corresponding to their escapes/kills] for a good while. See if the statistics of these new match outcomes push the killrate below what is desired. If so, buff killer.
Atm we're at the very first part of the sentence "Buff SoloQ". If SoloQ has been brought up to SWF in terms of match outcomes (while swf will always have more info/the potential for more coordination swf also tend to be way more altruistic and/or distracted if it's a casual swf that just wants to have a good time and doesn't care much about escaping or being sacrificed) is something we will have to see. If killrates will stabilise at a lower rate overall is something we will also have to see. - This takes time. A few weeks at the very least, probably rather two or three months.
-"It takes a while for statistically significant changes to show."
No it doesn't. As if someone flipped a switch every game is already that much sweatier when my games were already always sweaty. Everyone knows they can hold m1 on a gen and they pre-run the second they see the chase stops if they are in terror radius.
We need limits on SWF. Add the rule : No item/perk/offering/character repeats. Lock all selections except costume while the party is in queue.
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@ApathyZombie said:
Despite what the devs said remember they dont play as much as their playerbase obviously and when they do that we can see its custom lobbies with people they know not randoms, swf info is the biggest key to their success and further giving them info just at a glance is inherently strengthening them. So it should be turned off in lobbies of 2 or more. It doesnt make sense for it to be a "solo que buff" if people who arent solo benefit from it much more.
I assume most people didn't notice that the notes said the hud should be showing the percentage of each generator?
When that happens I'm not playing killer anymore.
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@Xernoton said:
I didn't see that before the update. This should not happen. Gens in such close proximity are not a good idea.
RPD is not a fair map unless two gens are in the main room.
@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3330479#Comment_3330479
This.
Two Gens in the Main Hall is just stupid, especially because at least one other Gen will be quite close nearby. Gameplay basically resolves only around the Main Hall, if the Survivors manage to do one or better both Gens in the Hall, they might win. If not, the Killer will win.
This is btw. a recurring thing with recent Map Reworks - the Maps tend to spawn 3-Gens a lot.
-"Two Gens in the Main Hall is just stupid"
Counterpoint : maps over a certain size are not fair for about half the killers in the game because they have low mobility and no ability to deal with god pallets.
Every map should have a powerful three generator setup that the killer can choose to defend and it is up to the survivors to break. The stronger the map (like RPD) the stronger the three gen should be.
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@Peanits said:
It would definitely be nice to see on paper, but in practice I could see it turning sour pretty quickly.
Groups of two or more make up about half of all Survivors (varies per region). You're probably facing and beating some sort of group in each match, but you may not even realize it because on average, grouped players don't really perform better than ungrouped players. While great Survivors playing together and coordinating can be very powerful, the vast majority of people are just casually hanging out with their friends, no harder to kill than anyone else.
On paper, this sounds like a great thing. You'll see that you're beating groups on a regular basis and it might show how rare these unstoppable squads are, maybe even show that even competent solo players can do really well sometimes. But in practice, that's not how brains work. It's easy to look at a win and go, "I won because I'm good." - you just won what is supposedly a hard match, after all. It's a lot harder to swallow a loss and say, "I lost because I didn't do as well as I could." This isn't something that's exclusive to any side or even Dead by Daylight/gaming as whole. When someone's frustrated, it's very difficult to take a step back and think rationally.
I do fear that showing this would only lead to SWF becoming more of a scapegoat when someone has a rough match (if one was even present). It becomes an easy thing you can point to and go, "Well that's why I lost." - even if you killed multiple groups without any problem in your previous matches. It doesn't make you feel better about your loss, it doesn't make you reflect on what you could have done differently, it just directs your anger to people who are simply playing the game. Features which help you direct your frustration towards other people rather than reflecting on your performance will always be a tough sell.
And to be clear, yes, although they are very rare, there are some super coordinated highly skilled groups out there who could very well be very difficult to catch, and by no means do I mean to deny that. The scapegoat situation I'm referring to are the games that definitely could have played out differently depending on how you performed and the decisions you made.
Short version: Would it be cool to know? Yes. Would it be beneficial? I'm not quite convinced. Ultimately, the time spend working on a feature like this would probably be better spent on balance or new QOL features to make those kinds of matches less frustrating in the first place.
Killer is in a completely terrible state right now if you are playing at high MMR.
I have a request for you and the entire DBD staff : play killer for a month with a 3000 MMR account that can't lose any mmr (if necessary have the accounts have the MMR reset daily).
The rules for the challenge are as follows :
- You may not play Nurse/Blight.
- You may not only play killers with only their best addons. Imagine you get 1 of each addon and then you have to go through all the other addons before your "good addons" reset. ( There is one exception: you are allowed to play Michael Myers with either purple tombstone or infinite T3 because he is unplayable without one addon or the other).
See how much fun you have.
"Would it be cool to know? Yes. Would it be beneficial? I'm not quite convinced"
After hundreds of matching tests in my own game I have concluded the following:
- Playing against SWF is not fun and is more frustrating
- Playing against SWF gives me harder matches and fewer points
- Items make survivors stronger - so I should play people who bring fewer items
- Killer queue times are instant so I can be very selective about who I play against.
- I have the most fair matches when all the survivors are playing alone.
Conclusion:
I should do my best to play against SWF players as infrequently as possible.
When someone is in my lobby with TTV I immediately open their stream to see if they are solo or SWF. Not Queen determined years ago this was not against the rules. Yes I will attempt to also see their perks. Why? Because playing killer is getting less fun all the time.
@FreakPrince said:
Some killers think they face SWFs all the time. Maybe that would make them see they just need to get better.
The majority of my matches are SWF. I know this because I look at the profile of everyone who comes into my game. I do not play anyone who is playing 3/4 man SWF anymore- unless they are under a certain number of hours. Before this patch playing against 2x 2 man SWF teams was somewhat bearable. But now everyone is more efficient and it feels like every game is against a 4 man SWF.
When I play DBD I am selective with my lobbies. I do not play vs 4 medkits (unless I am playing Plague) because I can't know if they are brown or purple .
When I see people come in to my lobby I can tell if they are solo or in a group depending on when they come in/leave. Often I "shop" around until I know that I'm not playing against a 3/4 man SWF.
Most of the time I already know who is in a SWF before the game starts. If player 3 leaves then the replacement player cannot be in a SWF with anyone else. Then if player 1 leaves I know the same information. Also if player 1 & 2 were alone in the lobby for 20 seconds then I also know player 1 is alone; by odds of elimination I also know player 4 is alone since players 1,2 & 3 are alone.
When someone is in my lobby with TTV I immediately open their stream to see if they are solo or SWF. Not Queen determined years ago this was not against the rules. Yes I will attempt to also see their perks. Why? Because playing killer is getting less fun all the time.
When someone comes in with anonymous mode on I will usually leave the lobby. Why? If you're not sure - dodge. There are an infinite number of survivors lined up waiting.
People lie to me all the time and say : we aren't swf. Then I say : I can see you on each other's friends list. And then they say - well we're not a full swf so it doesn't count. That's not how it works you are either solo queue or you are not.
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We need a replay system. It's really that simple. Have compressed replays that let us watch the match from all players perspective.
Poof! All the cheaters would instantly be exposed.
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@Gamall said:
Have HUD icons already become the new excuse for killers to justify their inefficiency in playing games? So soon already?
You might have missed it - I did too.
But the hud is supposed to tell the survivors the percentage of each generator. When that happens I'm not playing killer anymore for a while. That's completely ridiculous.
This new hud should be shown to the killer too.... imagine that.
Everyone forgets the killer always plays solo too.
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@Tantamountain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/362546/can-we-nerf-windows-of-opportunity
The game already heavily favors killers.
Just get better at the game.
Survivor abilities need to be buffed.
I think you need to follow your own advice.
Killer is only better when you are bad at the game. When you have ~1000 hours the game becomes a joke as survivor. If everyone plays efficiently you can win almost every game. That does not happen every game because people love to meme around with locker head on builds or they might be "throwing" the game to finish tomes.
There are no survivor mains who are saying Killer>Survivor if we momentarily exclude Nurse and Blight. Yes those two killers are broken compared to everything else. But so is SWF and all three of those elements need to be nerfed tremendously.
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@coldestwinter123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/362594/hud-changes-make-killer-less-fun
3) My games are much closer and everyone is way more efficient. If I were a Blight/Nurse main you would say well that's good. But I'm not. I play a killer most people put in the "B-C" blockThe issue is mainly that survivors dont interpret the game form the lense of a subpar killer. In their heads Blight facerolls over everyone. Spirits dog them non stop, Nurses left and right, Top tier addons always every meta iridescent addon perk u name it . So when there is even small changes that help survivors something like a super strong main building or an overly pallet dense area, on a bad killer that sht is magnified tenfold.
the hud itself realistically isin't helping the guy who crab walks around and doesn't push gens, that guy is gonna do that with the hud or with out. Who it really helps is the strong solo players to be even stronger. Assuming you play Killer or anyone who posts plays killer more then 20 games, you will quickly notice once ur mmr goes up it becomes much more difficult.
Reality is , if you are Blight main nurse main probably even spirit main. None of this concerns you. If you are super high end SWF, this might help you a little bit, but probably not noticeably, because you prolly never lose games anyway.
You are 100% right HUD does make the games more sweaty, and there is really only one solution. Become a Blight/Nurse/Spirit main. Invest 300k BP get the most absurd addons every game, and sht down the survivors throats. walk on their bleeding corpses, bleed them out, facecamp them, and at the end type gg friends. I have all of those killers Unlocked i don't particularly enjoy any of them, but i have low mmr on them and even when i can't play them i can destroy people, its probably cause the mmr is pisslow but it doesn't matter. If you have run the utmost sweatiest builds and use every possibility to be as toxic as possible, it actually makes the game way more fun.
if you need a little inspiration, this guy made me realize that playing like OTZ is actually so much worse for no reason.
What also happens is that the really good players play that much better because they know instantly who is being chased or not. They know it's safe to go back to gen XYZ.
This patch just reinforces the idea I need to kill one player asap. That's bad for the game.
I am 100% aware isn't SWF but every game against good players feels like it's against a 3/4 man SWF. This is one of the worst patches for the killers since DH was introduced.
"this guy made me realize that playing like OTZ is actually so much worse for no reason".
As far as I know there are no famous killer streamers who play my killer. I watch Otz play him and he makes a lot of goofy mistakes trying to do "sexy" moves. I see Truetalent do the same. They are both very good and experienced players who have better mind game camera rolls but I can play my favorite killer much better than they can.
But that makes sense because I only play one killer (mostly) and they play every killer.
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@Seanzu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3330163#Comment_3330163
I don't think having NOED spawn on broken bones would be very fair or fun, someone brings a totem build and spends the first part of their match getting rid of the bones just for it to mean absolutely nothing? idk about that.
it would be highlighted after about 20 seconds making the location known.
NOED became a junk perk. It used to be "payback" for the map being unfair to the killer. At this point they should delete hope and NOED and just make all the maps fair to all killers.
@Pepsidot said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3330180#Comment_3330180
I quite like how the perk is discouraging hit and play styles. When tons of people were playing hit and run Wraith it was awful, especially in solo queue, unless someone had CoH.
I can imagine builds for Wraith such as Sloppy Butcher, Knockout, Eruption, Deadlock/Infectious Fright with a slugging playstyle making a return, especially with a CoH nerf.
The UI improvements will help a bit now though. But so will the Haemorrhage (Sloppy Butcher) buff for killers (making survivors lose progress with their heals). So I'd imagine it'd still be extremely oppressive to play against. And boring, since you're not really ever chased - just downed over and over again when the nearby pallets are gone.
Would you rather the game be 95% Nurses and Blights? Trust me : you want all the killers to be viable.
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@HungrySnek said:
Sorry but it's just facts. Survivors always have something to cry about
First it was original ruin
Then it was Pop
Then it was ruin plus undying
Then it was dead man switch plus pain Resonance
Then it was merciless storm
Then it was dead man switch plus pain Resonance in a weaker Version
And now it's the kick gen perks but mostly Eruption
Stop crying about any perk that get's used a bit more often because it's the strongest right now
Same for killers who cry about every survivor perk that is meta
Most of the survivors want easy games. They want to finish all the generators and then mess around when the game is over. That's not very fun for the killer.
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@crogers271 said:
At 100 hours, when I was very much a survivor main, Gamedozer7 recommended:
Do you have any of the newer killers because most of the older ones are pretty simple but they have little tricks that you would never think of but most of the new killers have more to there power.After 200 hours my play for the game flagged quite a bit. Then during Christmas Steam sale I figured that being they were so cheap I'd pick up the extra packs. If nothing else I could see how eruption felt using it as a killer (feels overpowered).
Gamedozer's post was pretty accurate. Of the killers I picked up I didn't really care for Executioner, Myers, or Nemesis, but really enjoyed Freddy, Sadako, and Pig (I know they are all considered weaker killers, maybe that is why they are enjoyable because it balances the game a bit more). I found having an array of killers to switch to really improved the killer sided game play - get bored of one, jump over to another. Really keeps the killer side fresh.
That said there are 5 issues that make me dislike playing killer compared to survivor:
1: Winning is not nearly as meaningful as escaping as a survivor. There are many times as survivor were I was not confident I was going to escape until I was literally out of the exit. And even when as a survivor we are winning, which in soloQ feels pretty rare, there is always the distinct sense that things can quickly change.
Killer the excitement is in the chase. Once you get the down its a pick up and walk over to the hook. And what should be the most exciting part, the final survivor, is just a chore. If I'm already chasing them do they have a chance at finding the hatch? Almost certainly not.
2: You have to play it out. As survivor if the match is unbalanced, example: one survivor is dead, you only have a gen done, and everyone's already been hooked multiple times, you can just sit on a gen until you are found. As killer? When you are stomping the survivors you just have to keep doing it. In the above situation you know you've won, but you still got to track them done, chase them, etc. but it's all kind of pointless. I've been in many games that went on for five minutes or more after it was obvious the survivors were toast just wondering what we were all doing (and that's not even counting when the final two survivors see how long they can hide).
3: An array of easy tactics can get you the win. Team have a weak link? Tunnel them out. You manage to get two survivors on nearby hooks. Just camp. Three gens really close together. Mostly ignore everything else and protect those. They're powerful tactics, but also boring and just plain easy. I hate that sometimes I have to intentionally play bad to have fun.
4: Killer build feels like a difficulty slider. On the killers I have one setup for Iri ranks: throw on eruption and other clearly superior perks and use best addons. Then I have another build for more fair/fun play. Avoid overpowered perks, limit addons, etc. It really feels like I'm controlling whether I want the game to be easy or hard. Which is great for a single player game, weird for a multiplayer.
5: What to do if someone disconnects feels like it falls on the killer. Do I play my best and get the other survivors out so we can move on? Feels cruel. Do I scale back how I play but still try to win? Feels like I'm lying to myself. Just let them do the gens? Feels insulting and takes a long time.
What can make killer better to play? Match the exciting feeling of survivors?
SWF
I know this doesn't seem to be the reaction of most killers, but the most memorable/enjoyable matches I've had are against coordinated teams. At 340 hours I hit a team running all flashlights, we were Azarov's Resting Place, and I was playing Freddy.
It was a great game. I recognized they were going for flashlight saves and so I went to a slugging strategy. They had one player who was a clearly superior looper and so I tried to avoid getting in chases and instead tried to bait him into mistakes on helping his teammates. They responded by going to dead zones of the map to heal and doing everything to protect their teammates who did have hook states.
It was a great game that went back and forth. It ended in a two kill, but there were points I came really close to having them all (once had two down and one on my shoulder, but he wriggled out seconds before I got him on the hook). Likewise there were moments were they all healed up completely and I had to play great to get them back down.
And that's kind of my take on killers. Steamrolling survivors isn't fun. I hope the new survivor information change actually ends up being a substantial buff because not only would I like feeling like I have a chance as survivor, but it would feel a lot more meaningful to play killer.
"I didn't really care for Executioner, Myers, or Nemesis, but really enjoyed Freddy, Sadako, and Pig"
PH and Nemesis require you to land difficult skill shots repeatedly. If you miss a lot you lose.
Freddy and ring can teleport which makes them very easy to play at low MMR. People can't loop so you can still get easy downs.
With Pig you can control your stealth so you can sneak up on people but you cant with MM when his power is active.
Just so you're aware it's very commonly accepted that the strongest of all these killers is PH because he has better addons than Nemesis. the next stongest is Nemesis. After that they are all pretty much in the "garbage" tier of killers.
Actually this might surprise you but MM is the next strongest killer but only if you use the purple tombstone or infinite T3.
Pig would be the next strongest killer because she can use STBFL.
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@Bwsted said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3330156#Comment_3330156
It might be their goal, though. Their concept of meta shake up is just that.
Anyway, I think they'll go with another healing speed nerf, or a re-blessing time penalty of sort.
How about : just let the killer break bones by interacting with the boon. Then any boon can only be used at most 5 times before there are no bones left.
And then change Noed so that it can trigger from broken bones - not that anyone is still using it.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3329802#Comment_3329802
Wraith can cloak/uncloak, Billy has lo-pro (yes addon) and some really good billy's (yes the killer is IMO the hardest one) can actually outplay most of pallets without breaking them by "turning them", doc can deny pallet throw altogether - he just needs correct timing, clown can use both bottle types to disregard more then half of all pallets, plague has no problem when in power, spirit - you must be joking - she is prime example of "only god pallet will save you", oni - good one can eat pallets quickly enough (meaning surv will probably not get to next one and if he does, then the next one will just not be there) so that it doesn't matter to him when in power, pinhead when hitting his chain can mindgame very easily about half of all pallets if not more. Onryo especially with newspaper can manifest/demanifest for invisibility giving too short reaction time to survivor on most unsafe pallets (but sure safe pallets are problem for her) usually resulting in a hit (but I have to give it to you, that as you can see there are some killers that are vulnerable to pallets - they make it up with something else usually)
That's your list of killers that "can't counter pallets". There are also other killers that can eat them like candy (say bubba/nemesis) or outright ignore them (nurse) or use them as trap (pyramidhead, trapper & hag to some degree).
In conclusion - if there were so many pallets that WoO would just win the game for you because as survivor you are invulnerable once you predrop pallet, then why do we have more then 50% kill rate? Why is it actually around 60%? Why does midwitch with it's 24 pallets have most killrate of all maps and say fracture cowshed with it's 14 pallets (so 10 less) is considered survivor sided? Maybe there's something wrong with your premise after all
Did you not notice when I said : god pallets?
-"Why does midwitch with it's 24 pallets have most killrate of all maps"
The map with 25 pallets is The Game. Mid is killer sided because the survivors have to react to upper/lower floor transitions. The killer can pretty easily push people and force them to go the long way. The best move on this map is to shift+w.
It's a small map so when you chase people you often run by people working on generators - this is what makes a small map fair.
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@Thusly_Boned said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3329781#Comment_3329781
For me, the bonus has been on killer like 95% of the time for the last 3-4 weeks, and has been 100% on killer since the update/event started. As a result, I haven't been playing much surv, which sucks. I'm a slave to those BP, I guess.
That said, my games as killer since the update haven't been appreciably harder.
-"my games as killer since the update haven't been appreciably harder"
From everything you said it sounds like you mostly play survivor. The only people I know who actually get sweaty games are my friends who log into DBD to play killer solo and only play SWF if with friends.
@TragicSolitude said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3329785#Comment_3329785
None, because I don't work for BHVR. As for what BHVR might do, I have no idea. Maybe they'll finally fix Ghostface's stalk and breaking him out of stealth. Maybe they'll make it so Myers can't run out of stalk or they'll let him move faster and have a lunge while in tier 1. Maybe BHVR will let Myers and Ghostface walk faster while they stalk or do an add-on rework. I'm just as curious as you what they'll come up with to buff their killers.
MM is in need of a complete rework. So if you want to talk rework not compensation for ruining the stealth mechanic - sure.
- His power needs to work like Oni where the meter fills then he taps it to activate
- Either remove the T1 speed penalty of -5% or give him +5% for the rest of the game when he gets to T2.
- Since GF's stalk is one minute MM almost certainly needs to stalk faster (longer duration would just be cheese). Toward this end they could restore the "multistalk" feature that was taken away less than a week after his release. He should probably lose the "less stalking from far away" since that's what he did in the movies.
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@Fikzexx said:
- Play as a survivor, set up a Circle of Healing Boon.
- Get deep wounded by a Legion, Deathslinger or any other deep wounding killer.
- Have Dead Hard.
- Stay in the effect of the circle of healing boon effect.
- Jump in the locker.
- Jump out the locker.
- Right as you jump out the locker, the deep wound status effect will disappear for a second and as soon as that happens you press your dead hard.
- Endurance activates.
- You take an extra hit while being deep wounded with dead hard.
Character played: Meg Thomas. Killer - Deathslinger.
Perks played: Circle of Healing, Dead Hard, Hyperfocus, Reassurance.
Map: Dead Dawg Saloon (shack basement)
Video proof: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1708021894
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/G7AMNX213XK9/deadbydaylight.log
I'm pretty sure in one of the games where it happened the survivor had just finished a vault.
Maybe "completing a rushed action" allows you to use DH even when in deep wound?
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@Gandor said:
I am shocked from this thread. There's a strong premise in it, that the only pallets in the game are god pallets and that survivors can somehow chain them together.
From my experience predropping pallets means I will extend that one chase longer, but I am guaranteed to kill my whole team a minute after. You just can't effort to not use all the pallets and just predrop. There's way too little pallets for this (maybe outside the game - but given this meta, even the game does not have enough pallets for it).
And this all does not even mention that most killers have some kind of ability to actually outplay survivor on most pallets. Like #########? Do you really believe that knowing about pallets (especially filler pallets where you have fence-pallet-car/rock/tree - as is the case for most of them) means you are just screwed and you HAVE TO break it to give survivor time to get to next pallet? If so then I am afraid it's not survivors who are being carried...
-"the only pallets in the game are god pallets and that survivors can somehow chain them together."
If you don't feel that way when you play an M1 killer it's because you're playing baby survivors. There's a CMWinter video where he gets comp dropped at every pallet on coal tower and gets absolutely stomped. He made no mistakes - the survivors just "outplayed him". If I felt like taking the effort I would find it for you.
-"And this all does not even mention that most killers have some kind of ability to actually outplay survivor on most pallets"
Should we count?
Trapper*, Wraith, Billy, MM, Doc, Freddy, Pig, Clown, Plague*, Spirit, GF, Oni*, Pinhead, Ring.
None of these killers have a method to deal with a god pallet. Ok well you just get away free. gg. Note there are exceptions marked with power usage. By my count that's 14/30 killers that cant do anything.
Most of the pallets in the game have actually become god pallets. This was most definitely not the case back in 2016 as most of the pallets were actually quite weak - but super plentiful (there was a chance one map could literally have 24).
@RainehDaze said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3329793#Comment_3329793
Eh, like half of Killers can't do anything around filler pallets except run round them until the drop happens. Don't respect it -> stun -> distance made to next pallet regardless of drop; respect it -> lose distance -> continue going around pallet.
All of which takes time. Precious, precious time. Chain four pallets together with or without taking a hit in between and maybe DH, that's enough time for a gen.
Exactly!
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@VideoGameMage said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3329663#Comment_3329663
My games are about the same they were pre HUD update but according to the forums, the icons turned survivors into seal team six. I'm not going to act like these HUD icons aren't a big deal but guys it's been two days. Our games were sweatfests before, the icons didn't change that.
Most of the games I play are against very high MMR players. The first game I played last night was 2/4 members of a tournament team.
What I have noticed is that in times past when you had multiple players not on coms they hesitated and that hesitation made the game fair.
@GolbezGarlandGabrant said:
Just after 6.1 the incentive was 100% bonus on survivor for the longest and there were many posts on when will killer get their incentive. Now that it's the other way around suddenly it's a sign killer is unfun.
I don't think any amount of buffs the killer role gets will make it less stressful or more fun. Especially when the focus is always on what survivor gets with every update.
-"I don't think any amount of buffs the killer role gets will make it less stressful or more fun."
Sadly you're probably right. Somewhere around 95-99% of my friends who played killer since the beginning have quit. Why? Because it's always 2 steps forward for the survivor and 1 step forward for the killer (with sometimes 1 step back as well).
It is incredibly convenient that DBD released a "major buff" update to killer right before VHS came to beta. And then when VHS flopped they buffed survivor with +5 seconds of BT.
I'm super interested in TCM because it will be 3 vs 4 and both sides will have voice coms. The reality is that the devs flat out refuse to adjust SWF because they know the community would tear them to shreds for doing the right thing.
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@TragicSolitude said:
Killer bonus is 100% every time I log in.
That changes for everyone depending on MMR, time of day, and region. Queue incentives are the same as always for me, going back and forth between killer and survivor depending on time of day.
What is a stealth killer supposed to do now? The entire premise is ruined because you know Ghost Face is in a chase.
Stealth killers are stealthy outside of chase, they get the drop on survivors who are busy with gens or healing or whatever. Stealth killers are usually much less stealthy while in chase. SWF are already able to share the knowledge that a teammate is in chase with a stealth killer. Why withhold that info from solo survivors when SWF already have it? Not giving that info to solo survivors just leaves an unfair gap between solo and SWF and it makes all killers, including stealth killers, more difficult to balance.
My games are much closer and everyone is way more efficient.
I haven't experienced this in my survivor matches. Mostly I just see that I'm the only person working on gens, which if I then become the only person taking aggro and still no one is touching gens then I know to just get myself hooked and move on to a new match. My killer matches don't feel any different, either.
So, everyone is having different experiences and all any of us have to offer is anecdotal evidence. If there's an increase in survivor efficiency and escape rates, then hopefully BHVR won't drag their feet and they'll buff killers as necessary.
-Stealth killers are usually much less stealthy while in chase. SWF are already able to share the knowledge that a teammate is in chase with a stealth killer. Why withhold that info from solo survivors when SWF already have it? Not giving that info to solo survivors just leaves an unfair gap between solo and SWF and it makes all killers, including stealth killers, more difficult to balance.
Ok so what buff are you planning to give Stealth killers then if everyone always knows what they are doing?
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@solarjin1 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/362594/hud-changes-make-killer-less-fun
what is wrong with having closer matches man??
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3329664#Comment_3329664
ok this is legit hilarious
The game already favors survivors unless you play Blight/Nurse every game.
That's an old meme and it's been true for almost the entire lifecycle of the game after the first patch that nerfed the main survivor perks (Sprint/Self Care/etc.)
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3329648#Comment_3329648
Totally agree. I wouldn’t have an issue with it if the breaking effect from Shattered Hope was base kit, but as you said wasting a perk slot on that is ridiculous.
Honestly adding the perk Shattered Hope was a mistake - unless they decided to give killer a 5th perk slot that had to be either a totem or a totem related perk.
For a while killers would just run Shattered Hope in the slot until nobody ran boons. Then they would run a hex perk. Then the cycle would repeat: killers would ran Shattered Hope and nobody would use Boons.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3329627#Comment_3329627
sure, but that does not stop strong survivors from looping, i.e going from pallet to pallet. You said it yourself that your not a new player and that you know where 90% of the pallets spawn. with enough experience as survivor, you can emulate what windows of opportunity does without using the perk in the chase. Window of opportunity is scary because it allows weaker players to vastly elevate their looping skill without the need to learn looping. The perk got buffed two times. At first, the perk used to have a 60/50/40 second cooldown when a player dropped a pallet/vaulted a window, then it got buffed to 40/30/20 seconds and then its cooldown was removed and its radius was increased from 20 to 32 meters.
for new players, it vastly elevates their looping. For experienced players, it allows them to not run into deadzones and is another one of those soloq swf bridge perks because SWF can do clock call outs for which part of the map is being looped while soloq lacks that as they cannot see aura of where their teammate loop. I wonder how they would fix that? Maybe put a red aura pallet icon when the pallet is dropped? Only issue I see with that is that you might not see it clearly if your 60+ meters away.
I see no problem with the perk helping new players in a chase. The problem is when very good players use it to throw 6-8 pallets in one chase. Most of the killer roster can't do anything against such tactics.
IF we didn't nerf the perk and instead created some kind of new "pallet fatigue" then that might make sense. As the name suggests imagine if you could no longer fast drop pallets after you throw two while having been chased by the killer recently. But there is no reason to go to such trouble when we could just adjust one problematic perk.
@Veinslay said:
This perk is OP and it's not just noobs using it lol. I'm seeing 3+ WoOs a lobby on tryhard teams. Every single time I have to abandon chase because there's a disgusting setup on that map that the survivor is abusing, lo and behold to no surprise ever, they have Windows of Opportunity. Tired of how many perks just play the game for you on survivor side
I think this perk needs to be toned down so that you either can't combine it with exhaustion or you lose the aura reading of pallets after you throw a few.
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@Blueberry said:
Anyone with a good grasp of DBD's balance understands how overtuned CoH is. Compare it to any other healing perk in the game and it makes them all look like trash in comparison.
It also single handedly makes the entire hit and run play style non viable. As well beating down killers that rely on this play style, which mind you are generally some of the weaker killers in the game already.
CoH's sheer existence in a game encourages killers to tunnel because injures are meaningless. With CoH you can typically heal faster than most killer can even land the hits.
Bad design.
CoH and other boon perks would be "ok" if the killer destroyed the bones when they snuffed the boon as a base kit feature.
It's utter nonsense for a killer to gamble 1/4 perk slots to be able to destroy a boon if 1/16 survivor perk slots is a boon. Imagine the reverse.
Imagine not being able to break hex totems because you can't overwrite them with a boon? If that sounds broken then you know CoH is broken.
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@Chordyceps said:
I think content leaving the game is a dangerous concept as a whole, but to be entirely honest I dont miss this map too much. Aesthetically it was great, but from a gameplay perspective I hated it. Basically every loop on the map was either useless dogwater or the safest a loop can be without being a straight up infinite.
Here's the thing that was awesome about that map : most of the pallets were fair.
Most survivors do not want pallets to be fair. The side effect of more pallets being god pallets is that more killers play Nurse/Blight and nobody else.
What then is a fair pallet? A fair pallet has a short side and a long side (sometimes called an unsafe pallet). The killer can mind game the loop and make you mess up. If he tricks you he gets a hit. An Unfair pallet is one where it becomes a "mini infinite" until the killer breaks the pallet. Survivors love unfair pallets.
Hawkins had mostly "unsafe" pallets that allowed the killer to play mind games.
@BabyCameron10 said:
The things I would do to play one more game on that map. The atmosphere was great and the map wasn’t excessively large. Yes, It was difficult to escape on that map as survivor but the map’s eerie vibes and uniqueness were worth it.
I hope one day I could play on that map once more.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/G4MYWDY7EX1A/8006e331-a76f-4769-afd2-e09f26946bb4.png
Truly a beautiful chapter overall :’)
In my opinion Hawkins was the most fair map in the entire game.
1) it was small - this is essential to fair map design. This allows a killer to potentially pressure more than one person in a chase. Large maps in DBD require me to camp one player around a three gen.
2) it had a few god pallets but most of the other pallets were "unsafe".
3) You could not memorize the layout because certain rooms changed every time. This kept the map fresh and interesting.
@Sava18 said:
Yeah not really sure how it felt balance wise, all I know is I mained hag as my first killer and that map was free.
Funny enough this map was incredibly broken to play as Hag. I am still hoping we get a "fair play" balance pass for hag where you can use your hands to scratch out her traps. Otherwise you can just bring Franklins and nobody can remove your traps - creating a catch 22 situation.
Any map with narrow indoor passages is incredibly broken vs hag.
@dspaceman20 said:
No not really if being honest.
What made you dislike Hawkins? As a survivor it gave me plenty of places to hide even though it was small. There were some good loops like the windows upstairs.
As a killer it felt like I could have fair chases. Also the upstairs had a drop to a middle corridor that just led to some really fun scenarios.
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@RaSavage42 said:
There's nothing wrong with WOO... it's a simple perk and doesn't have big downsides
Seeing where windows and Pallets are instead of relying on memory is one thing
But adding a downside would make it not worth running in many situations
But Iron Will was overnerfed (IMO)... either it could've been at 100% but 90-95% if Exhausted... or have it where it is now but remove the Exhausted effect
Sounds are just as important as Auras are
There is nothing wrong with WoO as an idea if you look at it in a vacuum. But consider what the perk allows you to do: it allows you to go from pallet to pallet to pallet to pallet and continue to throw them without any chance for the killer to hit you.
This is a completely different idea from : I want to be able to see pallets so I don't run into a dead zone.
I'm asking for one simple change: Remove the ability for people to continue to keep throwing pallets.
A very simple way to do this would be to give this perk 2 charges. Throwing a perk uses up a charge. If you are not being chased for 35 seconds you get one charge back. When you have 0 charges you lose aura vision of pallets and windows.
-"Iron Will was overnerfed"
For six years my build was : Sprint Burst, Self Care, Spine Chill, Iron Will. Note: this was of course after the sabotage nerf where breaking a hook lasted forever. I lament over the changes of Iron Will but it was 100% abused by the very best survivors who combined it with Resilience, Spine Chill and Dead Hard.
I used IW back in 2016 where we had maps like Shelter Woods which was the only map with no infinite loops) in a time where we had genuine infinite loops. The kill rate on that map was 76% according to one of the dev streams of that era. It was literally hide or die. So I got really good at using Iron Will to disappear mid chase. That playstyle died when aura vision was added along with the doctor. Any hope of it being useful was removed again when the ambient fog around the map was removed.
This screenshot courtesy of a friend of mine shows what the old fog looked like. You probably don't see the Claudette in the picture do you? Not only do I love the old stealth play I massively preferred it to " chase me around a circle".
To make a long story short I understand sound matters. What you don't understand is that the ability to chain from pallet to pallet to pallet breaks the game. DBD is not designed for you to have 60 seconds in a chase between hits.
There is not much difference in the old SC, RES, IW, DH combo compared to the new WoO/DH combo. Both setups wasted a TON of time in chase by extending the chases past their natural duration.
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@Tostapane said:
like the title say since the rework can be considered a BUFF overall speaking (it can be considered nerfed only when aganist killers that inflict deep wounds like deathslinger and legion)
the reason is quite simple: if in the hands of good survivor old dead hard would help you to reach a pallet or a window in time, extending the chase even further, this perk not only will avoid a potential loss of pallets, but it will also gave a speed boost for the survivor, making him able to even change loops (so punish you even more than the old version), making your efforts to zone someone in area that has few defenses useless.
i found it funny seeing all those complains/threads about eruption when a perk with a similar effect exist (both are extremely annyoing to face, not to mention the time that i'll loose due to those perks)
-"since the rework can be considered a BUFF overall"
Most people don't like thinking that the perf got buffed. It got weaker in that it lost the "uncounterable" nature where people used DH for distance to get to pallets/vaults. This was an extremely simple way to use the perk even if you were not amazing.
The new version of the perk wastes as much time if not more with one exception : I attack you as soon as you get off the hook and now you can't dead hard.
@Pulsar said:
Yeah, saying that the DH change was actually a buff is pretty hysterical.
It was a nerf. Calling it anything else is disingenuous. Whether or not it needs further adjustment is up for debate, personally, I don't think so. That's why it's a debate though.
It was both. The old version was stronger in some ways because you could use it to create distance where none existed when you needed it most. There was nothing the killer could do if you just zipped forward 4 steps instantly.
What you're not taking into account is that there was literally no difference in chase times among high tier players before and after the DH change. It saved lots of time before the nerf and it saves lots of time after the nerf.
In BOTH instances the perk gives you a "third health state" because you avoid a hit you should have taken.
Since everyone knows DH is giving survivors a third health state : give DH a penalty to all healing actions to a survivor using it.
Nerf : Increase the heal time of all actions of any player using dead hard by 100%.
This will encourage you to play the game hurt. You will have two health states every chase but the first. It will delete the "third health state".
The broken aspect of DH has always been: you have to hit this player three times. Remove that as a likely scenario and the perk would see drastically less use. Some people would still use it and play it well. What you don't want to see is ~31% of the player base using it . And that's exactly what is happening right now.
Look at the perk rate use yourself : https://nightlight.gg/perks