Altarf
Altarf
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- Altarf
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As people have already said, this would not work. Either the passive abilities are useless, or they are somewhat useful and everybody plays the same few "meta" survivors. Trust me, this is not something you want.
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You've hit the nail on the head! These are prety much the exact changes the Twins need, and I'm glad that you've made this as more of a rework than just a flat out nerf like most people who get slugged by Victor once suggest. Virtually perfect. Only thing I'd change is equalising both the missed and successful pounce cooldowns to 4 seconds, but that's just a minor thing.
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I don't play him too much these days because they messed with the PS4 killer sensitivity settings during the Binding of Kin update, and it feels like they did again a little later. My perfect sensitivity, 55%, was made much faster than it was before meaning precise shots with a controller is much different and all my muscle memory's been thrown off.
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Having Victor on a survivor already makes them oblivious. So not really.
Besides, you want to be chasing injured survivors with Victor, so oblivious isn't particularly helpful there. What I'm more excited for is Eruption on Twins. If Victor actually triggers Eruption, that is.
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Clown is basically uncounterable and an A tier killer. I run around pallet five times in gas without dropping the pallet, he hits me. What the hell. Too OP, bottles need to slow him as well. Only then will he be a fair killer.
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They do need to fix the zombie ai. They've gotten significantly dumber from the PTB - as Nemesis I keep having to destroy them multiple times a game because they keep getting stuck on things, they rarely go after survivors or go anywhere of importance, and they seem to be coded to go away from generators. I literally repaired an entire generator in a zombie's face and it couldn't care less.
That's no exaggeration. I genuinely did one whole generator, start to finish, and the nearby zombie made me get off the gen only once. And then I went to the other side of the gen, and it lost interest and walked away. They are a joke.
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I think it's bugged. Clown's bottles don't apply slowdown anymore to survivors 90% of the time, and Freddy's snares also don't slow the survivors I've heard. I think it's just that the Hindered status effect is bugged and not working.
Although, since Nemesis' hindered effect literally lasts for 0.25 seconds, I can't imagine it's very useful either way.
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Those two have map pressure and aren't slowed by everything they do. And Huntress has multiple hatchets and snowball potential. Slinger's 1V1 power doesn't give him an advantage over Huntress, not in a million years.
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Yeah, his purple bottles don't slow survivors any more. I think the entire Hindered status effect is broken - that would make sense given how pitiful Nemesis' Hindered effect seems to be.
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Hopefully not until it actually runs on PS4.
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But if they did that, they couldn't sell the default head cosmetic for $4!
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I wonder, who was the last killer that people DIDN'T complain had no counterplay?
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@hailxsatanxeveryxday said:
Maybe we could remove BBQ's aura-reading ability, but change it to allow 50% BP per hook for a total of 200% extra instead of 25%/100%.
Any objections?
Yes. Doing this would massively increase camping rates as people would be deincentivised from leaving the hook. The current BBQ is fine, easily countered through lockers, proximity, faking one direction then going the other and hiding your aura behind a generator. Nerfing it is not something you want to do, and thankfully, BHVR seems to agree.
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@ManyAchievables said:
Nightmare On Elm Street is debatably the worst chapter in the game.
Even if Leatherface's was quite a bit more disappointing due to the lack of a map/Survivor.
Eh, NOES has an iconic and strong (if boring and gutted in the unique department) killer, Blood Warden, Badham and rat boy. Not one of the best chapters, but nowhere near the worst.
That honour would probably go to either A Binding of Kin, All-Kill or Darkness Among Us. I'd have to go with Binding of Kin, because as much as I enjoy Twins on both sides, the chapter was broken on release in every regard, has largely worthless perks and an extremely controversial and basically extinct killer. And no new map.
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@kingbojenbo said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2278388#Comment_2278388
Has nothing to do with survivors being happy, this is about game balance. All the suggested changes would make playing against Nemesis miserable to play against and that is bad for the game's balance. Also could we not turn this into an us vs them thread? We have more than enough of those in the forum already.
I'm willing to listen to balanced suggestions if killer players have any. I agree 3 hits is a bit too much but so is his reach. You can duck and avoid some of his attacks if the debris in-between is tall enough but some is not so mind games aren't necessary for some instances.
His reach is too long? The tentacle is, like, 5 metres. 6 at tier 3. And has a pinprick hitbox, windup and cancel time, hefty cooldown after use and requires three hits to down.
I don't really know what to say. Good bait if the "oh my god entitled killer mains just want to 4K every game" is any indication.
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@SassySolidSnake said:
I'm on PS4 and besides the bugs and lag, are you guys experiencing your teammates disconnecting for no reason at all? We popped the last gen and 2 of my teammates randomly DC'd at the same time, and it just happened again in another game I played. 🤔 I am also getting what looks like a bright flash of light too. Happened on multiple maps (The asylum and fractured cowshed).
This is likely because they are crashing. Possibly from that last gen being popped.
Thanks, BHVR, for releasing a playtested chapter.
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They did this with Bubba's old lady skin, too. Made it a set on release and then switched it back to a regular outfit, presumably after realising nobody was buying it.
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If I finish my patrol and don't find anyone, and the guy on the hook is approaching second stage, then of course I'll head back. Basic logic.
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Do you mean his new terror radius music? Clown's had that for a while now. Although you never see him.
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I went against an iri head Huntress the other day and actually had one of the most fun matches of DBD I've had an a while. A little unrelated, but you wouldn't get that with a Iri coin copy and paste.
Plus, it would only be useful on certain maps at exceptional levels of skill, which I don't think is fun add-on design.
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I've always seen the basement as a reward system for the killer. As it only spawns next to what are intended to be strong tiles (shack and main buildings) they're meant to be an incentive for the killer to actually bother chasing at these very strong areas, as if they manage to succeed and down the survivor they'll be rewarded with a very powerful hook area.
I don't think it needs any changes, really.
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850k BP, about 6 or 7 unclaimed challenges, two dailies and a truckload of Iri shards for the shrine.
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Honestly, I thought the default chase themes should be for the original 3 killers. Then they gave Billy one, which I'm not really a fan of.
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@miketheratguy said:
I believe that Wraith is now incredibly cheap. Everyone - or maybe I should say apparent killer mains - seem to think that I'm committing a sin by saying this. I mean how dare I say anything negative about a killer that they decided was COMPLETELY USELESS, I guess, before his recent buffs? He can hit you too fast out of an uncloack and he doesn't even need to use his bell anymore, this eliminating his one reliable tell. He's cheap, gets free hits constantly, and makes every match he's in a game of total guesswork and luck. The counterarguments are defensive things like "He be a stealth killer, that means him is supposed to get free hits" or, more often, "he was absolutely bottom of the barrel awful, terrible in any way, and only now has gotten just barely playable". Which flies in the fact of the other people who say that he's hardly been changed (if at all), so whatever. Not liking the Wraith anymore is tantamount to saying that anyone who uses him is Satan and that the game should be completely deleted because he exists.
I also can't stand looping. I ######### hate it. I think it's just ######### dumb. I thought this game was about trying to kill or survive, not seeing how long you can get the other side to play tag with you. ######### the looping stuff, it's not fun.
I've seen you sharing this opinion a lot, so I thought I'd give my input.
Wraith was one of the undisputed worst killers in the game for five years straight. You know this, I know this, everyone knows this, so you can understand how seeing somebody ask for him to be immediately nerfed again after all this time puts a sour taste in people's mouths. To my knowledge, you've started playing within the last 3-6 months (please correct me if I'm wrong) so it's fine that it seems less believable given his admittedly kind of silly current state, but trust me, he was AWFUL. Virtually no speed increase when cloaked, very poor and much slower post-cloak lunge only barely making up for the distance lost by uncloaking, and the invisibility rarely even worked as you could see his shimmer from miles away. And that was everything he had. And he was somehow even WORSE back in the day, because he didn't even HAVE a post-uncloak speed lunge or a movespeed increase while cloaked. I played a decent amount of both Wraiths and it was not fun.
However, I will admit that the buff they gave him was a little too far. Everyone wanted his movespeed in cloak to be increased, and for true invisibility to be a thing - however, they increased his movespeed in cloak much more than anyone thought (it used to be 120% movement speed if I remember right, and now it's 150%), made him only visible from 20m, and most bafflingly of all, increased his lunge duration by 0.25 seconds. Combined with the movespeed increase, this gives the Wraith ludicrous range with the uncloak lunge, which is a little cheap and I don't think was intended, even if it can be countered by predicting which way he's going to go.
If you want my opinion, they should either reduce the lunge duration back to 1 second, OR reduce his cloaked movespeed to 135% as well as increase the true invisibility range to 28m. One of these options, but not both. We do NOT want old Wraith back.
Also, Wraith has always been able to muffle his bell with the Coxcombed Clapper ultra-rare. This was not something they added with his buffs, and there is no other way of "not having to use his bell" to uncloak. (Well, apart from the "Serpent - Soot" add-on, but that is rarely used and pretty bad, only activating after breaking a pallet or wall.) Coxcombed Clapper is what an ultra rare should be - very powerful, but not oppressively so.
Finally, I'd like to let you know that of course you don't have to like looping, but in the end that is what this game is balanced around. For me, as a mostly killer player, I'm not really a big fan of M1 killer chases either. I prefer more dynamic chases such as with Deathslinger, Pyramid Head and Pig, and applying map pressure and macro strategy like with the Twins and the Plague. But I still have to do it, and likewise, so do you. Stealth is fine and all, but it's not what should be the "normal" choice. Having 4 god loopers is significantly more enjoyable than 4 god stealthers. And Wraith does kind of ######### on stealth players, especially with the one add-on he has that needs a downside, the All-Seeing Blood.
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@tenoresax said:
I've been hearing alot about Hillbilly's animations just recently, anyone care to tell me the issue with the animations? cuz I personally haven't really seen anything particularly wrong with them
1. Missed chainsaw animation is now a Nurse fatigue, and has weird speed increases and decreases going on during it. Billy did not need this, and it just feels nauseating.
2. Billy's camera is now ahead of his actual body, meaning you have this awkward lumbering motion. This doesn't seem so bad until you realise that Billy is a character who relies on knowing hitboxes, and having his camera be ahead of where he actually is means everything feels janky and you can't really make 100% accurate reads. Makes traditional looping feel weird.
3. General unnecessary animation changes compared to his old animations (pre patch 3.6.0, I believe) make him feel weird and nauseating to play.
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Yes, I'm using We'll Make It. No, you don't need to self care. Stop running, meg.
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@TheBus4K said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2266184#Comment_2266184
Do not use the argument of "if it miss/bump into something, it has a cooldown!!!!", because a Hillbilly who knows how to play it's not going to miss/bump into something, so you cannot consider that a cooldown/limitation. One limitation is like the Huntress, no matter how good you are, at some point you will have to reload your axes.
And well, the other nerfs you say were unknown to me.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2266166#Comment_2266166
That's basically what I don't understand. Why does Hillbilly with such high mobility, a oneshot, fast spins and no cooldowns mean it's Tier B? I would understand that it wasn't Tier S, because the Nurse and the Spirit are at another level, but Tier B?
Yes, not having instasaw addons have made Hillbilly worse, but that is the fault of the users, for getting used to playing a Hillbilly with instasaw. Hillbilly without instasaw was incredibly strong.
And well, I don't know those "shadow nerfs", I don't know if they are real or just some excuse to argue that Hillbilly is now Tier C.
Because playing the Hillbilly for one match against good survivors makes you realise that his chainsaw is NOT an easy instadown in a chase. Or even a widely useful one. It is countered by basic looping, windows, dropping pallets, most good tiles - unlike Bubba, it is very easy to avoid and not applicable in most situations, making Billy largely an M1 killer against smart survivors. He can be looped mostly the same as any other killer, and that's not what makes an A tier killer. Add-ons made his chainsaw much more lethal - whether fairly and skillfully, with the Engravings, or cheaply, with instasaw. But on its own, the Chainsaw is not a power where the downing potential is mostly in the killer's hands. Survivor have to make a considerable mistake to be hit by it, and Billy has to be ready to capitalise on it. This is simply not viable against better players.
Against good survivors, old basekit Billy had high mobility and map pressure, but not a consistent instadowning power unless you brought Engravings or charge time, which made him an A tier killer. Now that both of those are no longer available, (charge time now makes you 4.4m/s, Engravings make you overheat after three revs) Hillbilly is significantly weaker. Map pressure and mobility alone does not make a killer good. They need to have a chase power.
Look at Deathslinger. He has an incredible chase power, but suffers massively in the map pressure and mobility department, making him a mid tier killer. Billy has the opposite problem.
And no, C tier does not mean "one of the worst killers", C tier means below average. D tier is what you're looking for, and unless they nerf him again Billy will never be D tier.
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The one cosmetic I'd buy in a heartbeat is a Jacket legendary skin for the Trickster, from Hotline Miami. It would fit almost perfectly, come on!
Others would probably be:
-Modern day Plague. Like, ripped open surgical mask, hospital scrubs, wrecked IV drip as a weapon or headdress, tubes poking into her body, bandages, etc. Like a Patient Zero.
-Blighted Twins, with Charlotte as a nearly headless, withered husk with her chest cavity exposed. Fully body horror stuff. Ideally you'd want blighted Victor, but he doesn't change with cosmetics for some reason.
-Crab Hag. Shell on her back, crab claw hand, barnacles all over her body - it's baffling how they haven't done this yet for that Waterside Massacre collection
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Instasaw wasn't viable?
Anyway, Hillbilly does need buffs - here's what I'd do.
1. Full add-on rework. Again. Too many of them do nothing, hurt Billy, or have incredibly minimal effects. Add chainsaw cool-down add-ons, slightly increased movespeed while revving, things that actually help rather than "Cool down faster when a flashlight is shining on you". While you're at it, include some kind of addition to the Engravings to reduce heat from revving so double engravings aren't dead.
2. Overheat now equates to charge time. The higher heat the Chainsaw has, the faster it charges. Charge time increases in intervals of 20% heat, and at 80% heat or higher will have a reduced charge time of 1.8 or whatever number of seconds rather than 2.5. This would make Overheat less of a frustration mechanic and more of a risk-reward, rewarding Billies for keeping their Chainsaw high on heat with potentially easier downs, with the risk of fully Overheating being something to watch out for.
3. Remove the roar. If it must stay, then have it only play on successful chainsaw hits. It is unnecessary and ear-grating, as well as giving even more info to the survivors on when to dodge.
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Because Hillbilly was only A tier with add-ons. Basekit Billy was a B tier killer, pre nerf - now, he is C tier due to Overheat, having arguably the worst add-on suite in the game, his many bugs and shadow nerfs, (phantom saws, the roar, increased chainsaw collision zone, prioritising pallets over survivors) map reworks screwing up his collision and making it increasingly harder to curve, and frankly just being outclassed.
But the main reason I will always hate the Billy nerf is that it turned a balanced, strong and fun killer into a mediocre, frustrating and unfun killer.
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To be fair, I enjoy going against nearly every killer except the ones at the bottom.
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Twins are fun to play against and to play as, and do not need as many changes as people like to think.
Cleansing against Plague is actually worse for her than not cleansing, provided multiple people cleanse.
Pyramid Head is one of the best designed killers BHVR has created in recent memory, now that the lose/lose situations are mostly removed.
Freddy needs another rework - one that merges the Dream World aspects of old Freddy (slowdown, dream transition and pulling into dream, aura reading) with the powers of new Freddy. (snares, pallets, teleport)
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Now this is a good one - top 10 Sluzzy posts for sure! Well done.
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Survivor:
1. David
2. Jake
3. Dwight
Killer:
1. Legion
2. Doctor
3. Wraith
Honorable mentions for worst cosmetics are Felix and Twins. Felix because none of his are too exciting, but still a decent selection. Twins' cosmetics literally all look the exact same. It's baffling. Compare them for yourself, they're hardly even different. The only difference between the sickles is that a tiny, TINY bit of cloth at the top a slightly different colour.
I wish Twins had better cosmetics. Why is the purple skin a set? Why doesn't Victor get a cosmetic slot like Ash and his hand?
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Although I would love this, there is one issue I can find with this change.
Knock Out. Do you really want Victor to have Knock Out?
Also, Exposed perks should only count for basic attacks, obviously. Aside from that I am fine with this change. BHVR are eventually going to nerf STBFL by removing the special attacks not losing stacks part, so that part of this change is manageable.
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You can burn a Nurse in two ways.
1. Shine your light on her when she's charging a Blink. Doing this for long enough stuns her, but is largely a bad idea.
2. Shine your light on her when she's not charging a Blink. As long as you're doing this, she cannot charge a Blink and is forced to move at slow speed.
Neither of these are particularly effective, but the latter has actually helped me in some situations.
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Reworking Nurse is a complete slap in the face to everybody who bothered spending hundreds of hours learning her. She is one of the most unique killers in the entire game, and her power isn't just a "oh no I'm dead" no-counterplay fest like Spirit, who actually does need a nerf. She has her own unique set of counterplay like doubling back, line of sight blockage, acting unpredictably, etc - all which unlike Spirit actually matters.
Nurse is not a problem. She is incredibly strong, and is incredibly difficult to learn and play to compensate without having a complete lack of counterplay. If you want a problem to fix, look at Spirit, who is very nearly at the same level of Nurse with add-ons with less than a tenth of the skill required or counterplay.
I'm sorry, but a lot of this list I heavily disagree with. Nu-Freddy as perfect? Spirit as only needing minor tweaks? Legion, of all killers, needing a complete rework? Twins needing to be nerfed MORE?
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I've used Bloodhound a few times and never really found use from it. Most of the time the blood it highlights you can just see normally. Not a bad perk, but there's many better options.
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Vs Deathslinger:
-Never drop pallets unless you're already injured, because he can shoot you during the dropping animation and get you injured anyway.
-Crouch while being reeled in - this lowers your hitbox and makes it considerably harder to be hit through a window. Also move left or right while being reeled to make this next to impossible.
-If you're safe behind an object while being reeled and you're ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN he wants to break the chain and can't get around and hit you, don't struggle or try to break out. This wastes a lot of time for Slinger.
-Try to get a read on the Slinger's behaviour as early as you can. Does he like to ADS spam to zone? Does he go for skillshots? Does he only go for guaranteed shots in animation locks? Adjust your strategy on the fly and be as unpredictable as possible.
Vs Twins:
-Keep yourself and your team healed as much as you can. Being healed makes Victor significantly weaker, so the typical "stay injured and do gens" strategy isn't a good idea here.
-If injured, find another survivor to group up in a pair with. If the survivors go in pairs, Victor cannot do anything as he will be kicked during the successful pounce cooldown, and you should have the downed guy healed by the time Charlotte slowly lumbers over to you.
-Always assume Victor is at a hooked survivor. When getting within 16 metres (or about 3-4 seconds of running's worth) to a hooked survivor, start crouching towards the hook like you do with Hag. If you hear his shrieks, crouch over and kick him. If you don't, after a few seconds, run for the unhook normally. This also applies for slugged survivors - don't rush in without thinking or you will be punished.
-Kidnap Victor only when it's very bad for the Twins to not have Victor. This means when everyone is injured, at the start of the game, etc. Don't kidnap him every single time.
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@GeneralV said:
Ah, Azarov's Resting Place. You know, I used to love this map. It was my third favourite map in the game, only below Old Lery's and Mother's Dwelling.
It also had a very special meaning to me, as it was one of the first maps, if not THE first map, I've played on back when I first started. It was the map where I got my Adept Freddy. I loved it, both as survivor and killer.
And then the Realm Beyond came.
And look how they massacred my boy. This map, in my opinion, is butchered. Visuals are bad, the Fog is basically non-existent, the lighting is weird, and don't even get me started on the main building.
What a tragic fate for what was once a great map.
Yeah, Autohaven got butchered with the graphics update. Macmillan? I could live with it - wasn't an improvement, really, but was tolerable. Autohaven though just feels terrible now. It's too clustered and cluttered together, and most of the loops have really weird hitboxes and have loads of trash stacked on top of them. This fits the scrapyard theme, but it poses a problem when ranged killers can't use their power at most loops because very few new autohaven loops are waist-high, but survivors can see over tiles now thanks to the walls being low enough to catch the top of some killers' heads.
Don't even get me started on The Game.
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Yeah, I have gotten that feeling recently. I think it's because of the super lunge, but at the same time the super lunge adds a lot to his skill cap so I don't think it should be removed.
What I'd do is increase the true invisibility radius to 28m rather than 20m, because with his speed 20m is nothing, and then SLIGHTLY decrease his cloaked movement speed. (only slightlg)
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@Nyx32 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2257962#Comment_2257962
I've actually never got to fight deathslinger, I quit right before he came out and haven't seen him since I came back :(
That's a shame. A lot of people don't like him, but personally he's one of my favourite killers on both sides.
A tip for when you eventually go against him - while you're being reeled in by him, crouching shrinks your hitbox and makes it significantly harder for him to hit you through windows.
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@CaulDrohn said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2257307#Comment_2257307
Dude, Twins perks are way more useful than huntresses!
Beast of Prey and Territorial Imperative both do literally nothing for you in 9 out of 10 matches. And the one time it does have an effect, its not even great. Huntress Lullaby is one of the weakest hex perks. It might be useful with 4 or 5 stacks, but then it's usually gone. Apart from "impossible skillcheck" builds, Huntress Lullaby has no purpose. And even in this sort of builds, it's just icing on the cake, and easily replacable with better perks.
On the other hand, Coup even when just working once can give you a surprise hit or down. That alone makes it leagues better than Beast of Prey and Territorial Combined. Oppresion works really well together with Pop and Surveillance, and esp. shines in protecting a 3 gen. It's not just about the difficult skill check, it saves time bc you do not need to kick the gens yourself. I played all my matches with P0 Twins with it, bc I did not have better slowdown perks, and it allowed my to prevent or at least delay the completion of the last gen(s) multiple times. Hoarder is the weakest of Twins perks, but again can result in some suprise hits or downs, bc survivors won't expect it.
Overall, we have two trash and one underwhelming perk for huntress, and two ok and one underwhelming perks for Twins. Sure Twins perks are not great, but saying they are even worse than Huntresses, that's just so wrong.
People undervalue Beast of Prey. Sure, it's not the best perk, but you get level one of Bloodlust pretty fast, relatively speaking. Moving 5% faster AND having no red stain during a chase can actually lead to hits you wouldn't have gotten otherwise. I'd take it over Hoarder, and at least it's consistent, unlike Coup de Grace.
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Probably Deathslinger. He's really the only killer who actually puts me on edge - both aesthetic-wise and gameplay wise. His surprising stealth meaning you have to constantly be on lookout, the sheer intimidation factor he has when walking towards you, knowing you're never 100% safe from a gunshot, the pulse-pounding nature of his chases, and several other things I could mention. I might be biased because I main him, but I find him exhilarating to play against, even if he lowers my life expectancy every time. A Deathslinger that doesn't do the cheap ADS spam zoning is probably the height of DBD horror for me, and I love matches against that.
Honorable mention would go to old Bubba. Yeah, it's doubtful that he would ever catch you - but if he did, boom, it's over. You're not getting off that hook. Really brought a tension to go with how memey Bubba was back then.
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I think Scott Jund put it best.
https://youtu.be/8006FDP4Iw8Edit: PainReliever does a better description of how Legion's power actually worked.
https://youtu.be/peFfFHqBk-c -
Ebony moris.
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Twins should be Hard, and Clown should stay intermediate. Twins are an extremely complex and difficult killer to use effectively, and Clown's power is theoretically simple but comes with a lot of challenges and difficulties to use, such as the strange arc of thrown bottles, antidote, proper bottle placement and herding of survivors, zoning with bottles, etcetera. Clown isn't an easy killer to play, no matter what some may say. He is not just "throw bottle at one end of loop, go round other".
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Lery's.
Midwich.
RPD.
Literally any indoor map.
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I like playing Twins but they are very clunky, unreliable, difficult to play and can be very easily countered but survivors refuse to do these counters. Genuinely, I'm convinced people don't even know you can kick Victor after he misses, let alone after a successful pounce.
If people actually used the counters like looping dropped pallets, sticking in pairs, healing, going in lockers, running Victor around round objects, kicking Victor, I would enjoy them a lot less. They remind me of Bubba if nobody pre-dropped pallets when he's revving.
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Literally just go behind a rock, and Main Event can't touch you. Or a wall. Or anything higher than the waist. Main Event has a limited activation window, a lengthy wind-up animation, and Trickster moves extremely slow while using it. And if he cancels it, he gets a fatigue.
Main Event is, widely, almost useless. It's only worth using if you're at a waist-high loop and the survivor is either injured, or there are no other loops nearby. But in that case, your regular knives would get a down just as quick. Even with camping, Main Event can't be held onto so Trickster probably won't have it available.