WeaverReaver42
WeaverReaver42
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I'm actually getting survivors who can beat me on killer's I'm NOT good at, which is better than it was before. So I would say for "below average" to "middle of the pack" is improved. It's the "high" MMR players that understand this game in and out that are having a problem with MMR right now. They need to account for players who win back to back to back. That's a sign they need more drastic MMR shifts. Win streaking should be a sign they are WAY out of proper MMR level. They should have each consecutive win after the 3rd be a low exponential curve of increased MMR gain until they start losing, then you can have them level out by losing a few times (I know 'low exponential' sounds like an oxymoron, but "low" is relative here. The increase should start relatively normal and grow more insane with increased wins to prevent "I won 3 games and now I'm facing the top 1% of gamers" scenario). The losses in this state would also be an increased loss to MMR, but a flat change so that a consecutive loss streak will put you closer to your level over time instead of plummeting your MMR back to the level you were at in the beginning.
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@Mandy said:
I think calling out one side over the other is hardly conducive to a good discussion, so your title is pretty imflammatory.
We have said many times with the Judgement that they are a hard killer to play correctly (with the pay off that they're also one of the strongest) - very very few people are even close to mastering them yet so we're being very careful on any changes that we think we need to make at this stage whilst we see how things play out.
I admit, the inflammatory nature of the title is from frustration caused by concern and is lacking in tact or nuance. I genuinely don't want another Krasue situation where a killer is left in the gutter because of backlash before the dust settles enough for devs to figure out what is wrong in the first place. It's a difficult situation for everyone. However, seeing survivors call for nerfs as soon as they do also makes it hard to not feel the need to put my voice out there in turn.
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@MiseryandCompany said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4112130#Comment_4112130
Maybe 2 different feedback areas would be a way to reduce noise, one for survivors and one for killers.
There would still be spillage and of course people playing both roles cross-commenting but it might reduce bad habit of asymmetric game feedback where the role with more players dictates the discussion simply by outnumbering the other side.I actually LOVE this idea. Though I think taking into account the MMR of the player should also be considered IF (and this is a big if) the changes to MMR result in better players actually ending up in lobbies with similarily competent players. If MMR works properly This would give players more constant access to proper balanced matches where devs can look at and understand what skill level they are dealing with depending on the MMR.
Having killers and survivors comment on how it feels to play their role without worrying about people who aren't even playing that role muddying the waters means they will HOPEFULLY feel less need to defend their overtuned aspects from nerfs and more honest communication on anything overtuned and WHY something else need more work to fit with the game's balance. -
We're going to have another krasue situation where survivors cry a killer into irrelevance.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4108345#Comment_4108345
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4108345#Comment_4108345
Yeah a big part of the problem is how quickly things go south as survivor and how unfixable it is. And that knowledge comes with time. Once you have at least a couple thousand hours invested the trajectory pattern becomes very visible and you know when a survivor match is lost almost immediately. I'm just so tired of thinking about the hatch a minute into a match.
Meanwhile, on killer, I can lose three gens with one hook and still comeback. I don't go a single killer session without getting a win in end game after playing terrible. There's always hope as killer. But as survivor they want you to lose a lot and be fine with hopeless matches.
So if option one is lose a whole lot and feel bad a minute into a match, and option two is win more and feel more in control, why would you choose option one? I've seen more and more people feeling that way and I don't know how the game can sustain it.
Survivor's main weakness is that you need other survivors to be competent to win, and most players refuse to put in the bare minimum. Killer's main weakness is that once all 4 survivors actually lock in you realize how many tools they have at their disposal compared to you. They are 4 swiss army knives and you are a single sledgehammer. You may out power them, but power was never what they needed to win. It's not what they should rely on.
As an experiment to see how few survivors are actually putting in meaningful effort: try and play perkless trapper (for bonus masochism/iterate on my point, do it with the addon that prevents traps from damaging them to reduce the impact your traps have on a match). If you can beat a squad of survivors with that killer and no perks, it's proof that they weren't a group you should have been put up against. -
@Yamalive said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4107915#Comment_4107915
Its pretty obvious from the history of patches that Bhvr does favor killer over survivor. This is an undeniable fact.
This is actively ragebait. You used to be able to destroy trappers power, and yet people like you will claim that the devs hate survivors. Just admit you want free wins and get out. Survivors are literally getting MORE information FOR FREE as soon as the next update comes out. You complain because you know the devs will bend the knee to your whining. That's it. Survivor "takes more skill" in the same way it "takes more skill" to use a sword over your fists. Once that skill is achieved you have the advantage, that's why you put in the effort. Killer is "easier" only against survivors who struggle to know what they need to do at any given point, which is becoming more of a skill issue with each information update given.
Survivor is as simple as looping for as long as possible, doing gens, healing, and not unhooking in front of the killers face. Anything else would just be killer specific. The fact that I struggle to find survivors who don't do half of that should tell you the real reason survivor feels bad to play. The PLAYERS are the problem. No amount of help will change that. I'd argue they've gotten worse BECAUSE they keep receiving help reducing the need to learn fundamentals.
Blaming behavior for being partial to killers is like blaming the referee that only gives you a yellow card for drop kicking an enemy for why you lost the soccer match when you actively don't kick the ball. -
@100PercentBPMain said:
I wonder how that'll work on controller then. I'm still waiting for Vecna to get dpad support
For controller I was EXACTLY thinking dpad XD
Sorry about the vecna thing though, that SHOULD be done. It's so simple, and it'd be nice for controller players to have SOMETHING in their favor. Goodness knows that auto-aim isn't. -
@kin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4103861#Comment_4103861
Her chase is completely fine, there was a post about it not notifying survivors well - that's it, this post is asking for that to be improved, not for the killer to be nerfed.
In the current version of this killer, the easiest way to play is to use four aura perks and try to hit the survivor from afar; it's much easier than using her ability during a chase. That's the problem, as I recall: it turns a strong, complex, and balanced killer into an unpleasant piece of crap that hits you out of nowhere. She literally can hit you from opposite side of map
Her chase is NOT FINE. It's actively awful. Her being able to snipe you at least makes that less overtly painful because you have less damage states to worry about. You not only can't use power at all, but you are slower than most killers expected to m1, meaning you will be in chase longer than the devs probably expect even accounting for early downs from somehow suprising a survivor after the first hit (which would be hard because you will most likely be hitting from FAR away, and that takes time for this killer to travel the same distance that her attack travels in moments).
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I think f-tier is a bit much….. but they are definitely near-trickster level if you don't consider addons. I would consider Holy Winged Icon as needing to be made basekit. Otherwise you have NO anti-loop. It's a rougher spot than people want to assume. A complex power that is hard to land should have some benefits for landing it. However, judgement requires you to ALSO down them before those benefits come into play. Said benefits feel more like "completing" your power rather than buffing it.
Close range is a pain in the neck even with holy winged icon because you still can have survivors easily avoid your power. I should know, I'm a trash survivor and I managed to loop this killer with ease. -
@Madureira said:
After playing around 25 survivor matches against Jason over the last four days, and after testing several different builds, I’ve come to the conclusion that, unfortunately, the most effective strategy is simply to rush generators.
It’s true that whenever Jason enters his invisibility mode, survivors often stop working on generators altogether, which makes matches feel slow, passive, and boring. And yes, the fact that his invisibility has no limit and can be activated repeatedly only makes this issue worse.
I had one match that lasted about 25 minutes where the last two survivors basically spent the entire time (15min) wandering around waiting for him to leave invisibility. That kind of gameplay just isn’t engaging for either side.
Another extremely frustrating issue is that, on three or four occasions, the killer would remain invisible near a hook, repeatedly injuring anyone who attempted to rescue a survivor. This is something that really needs to be addressed. It reminds me of the Bubba camping a hooked survivor until someone tried to save them. Very frustrating.
I think my escape rate against Jason seems to be somewhere around 25–30% (vs an average 60%) playing with random players. There were only a few matches where more than two survivors manage to escape.
I think the developers should seriously consider ways to improve/rework his gameplay dynamic. I'm leaving some options below to be further explored:
- Restricting how often invisibility can be used.
- Reducing the duration of invisibility.
- Preventing him from exiting invisibility too close to hooks with hooked survs (reducing camping and tunneling scenarios).
- Toning down some of the buffs he receives when leaving invisibility and scarying survivors.
I understand that Jason is a new killer and that players naturally need time to adapt. However, I think it important to make sure that some of the current mechanics don’t turn matches into tedious, frustrating experiences for both survivors and killers.
I think that it i pretty clear that some level of rework is needed. ✌️
This SHOULD make jason easy to beat. But survivors aren't actually good at the game. Gen rushing is probably the easiest thing in the world, and survivors seem to complain about any killer strong enough to be a threat. Most of your complaints are already dealt with in some capacity in other killers, and it made them WEAKER. Wraith and sadako show what happens when an "invisible" killer doesn't have easy access to that power. MOST killers have their powers restricted near hooks- even jason. His buffs when leaving invisibility literally just make him a 4.6 speed killer- which is NORMAL speed for trapper.
Heck, his spikes are just huntress hatches but more restrictive with how easily you can reload.
Survivor can and will complain about ANY killer, and they won't wait to do so. Y'all complained about wraith after the rework, why should we trust you with jason? If genrushing works, do that. It's that simple. It's not the killers fault survivors make the worst possible play. And the devs should stop coddling survivor players so much. Their changes haven't made the game better- just made good survivors more unstoppable and bad survivors more entitled. -
@pidgeon said:
Tricksters is the only ranged killer who needs to hit multiple times that is 4.4 which makes zero sense. Even with the buffs making him 4.6 doesn't make him nearly as insane as people think he would be.
He USED to be faster. They nerfed his movement speed, but they kept the slowdown when he gets ready to throw them, meaning they functionally double nerfed him in one sweep. They also reduced the knives he holds. They consistently reduce the amount of knives he has each time they do a pass over with him. It's a weirdly consistent throughline.
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@Lavoonus said:
Its an interesting idea, and the game desperately needs some more perk types. However as you described it, the ability to cleanse the perk seems kinda pointless, since the effect of a dwelling perk would need to be incredibly oppressive to make doing the equivalent of a 6th gen in the basement worthwhile. And at that point, it's just a regular perk with some extra flair.
What if working on cleansing it progressively reduced the power of the perk? With Dwelling: Ruin for example, survivors getting halfway through the cleanse would reduce the regression bonus by half. Of course the endgame bonus would still exist to punish survivors for not completely cleansing the perk.
I don't mind reducing the effect as you make progress. However I figure it's worth mentioning part of the balancing is that you CAN'T undo any progress a survivor makes on the cleansing. Meaning they can take quick little pot shots in between healing and unhooks to wittle away. Too much time and they risk their teammates dying while they've made NO gen progress, not enough and the endgame surprise happens. It's what totems were meant to be, a side objective that slows the game down without making it sluggish. Meanwhile, killers who use this perk would almost certainly have equipped some basement perks (like territorial imperative or monstrous shrine) to make that idea more dangerous. It's essentially a lure for survivors to risk themselves during the match, a stick disguised as a carrot- so to speak.
That being said, I do like the idea overall. Maybe have it be certain percentages based on the perk? Like, if ruin has 100% regression, every quarter progress 25% of the progression gets chopped off. Whether it be quarters, thirds, or one time at halfway- would be dependent on the actual effect and it's potency where the cut off and mitigation happen.
Heck, thinking about it. This could be used for more powerful effects that are hard to balance around random chance. Hex totems really would have been better being a "distributed" effect across multiple totems rather than the pimple popping it currently is. Maybe if this gets added we could see them end up that way. -
I know I am probably too late to have this heard- but I genuinely think using the PTB TWICE before bringing anything to Live.
It would grant you more chances to find bugs, some of which you might not have found in normal testing. I understand that you have limited time to do things- but that's why the PTB is useful. We can test the more niche interactions and normal gameplay while you can focus on the fundamentals of the programming.For an example of what I mean: Just do one PTB for initial "hey, we bug tested- now you're our stress test" and then another before launch that they can get to working on stuff BEFORE it hits live and reduce time wasted waiting for learn about the bugs.
Literally a single PTB extra and you will have gained WAY MORE time and data to work with just by sheer volume of PTB players.
(You could also add incentives such as a charm for the PTB for each new chapter. 1st PTB no longer going? You can get the cosmetic for helping figure this stuff out by playing a few games in the SECOND PTB- and show the community you've done your part!)
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@toxik_survivor said:
Nurse has been a killer that's been labeled as OP since she was released, however, Nurse nerfs won't do anything, there needs to be something completely new to balance her. However, I don't see her being changed because of her skill cap being so high, and her kill percentage being the worst in DBD simply because people don't know how to player her and then don't try and learn. So to be honest I'm at a neutral stance at nurse, I really don't mind her right now even though she's definitely still the strongest killer in the game, besides maybe kanekis crazy tentacle hitbox being a guaranteed first hit. The problem with making her worse is that in the future nobody is going to play her because she's too hard to initiate and learn, when you have so many more exciting and powerful options.
If she was ever to get changed, here's my idea- Add a new attack type to her and call it "Cursing." Kinda like original Freddy, you have to curse a survivor in order to injure them, but its simultaneous. As soon as you blink within distance of a survivor, you actively press a button to curse them, disabling all there perks for 10 seconds and putting them into the cursed domain. Once that is done you can just chase and down them like normal. There is no way to get out of the cursed state, you are in it for the rest of the game.
It's a good way to reduce the overwhelming map pressure nurse has. Simply just add a little more time that that the nurse has to take to down someone for the first time.
I would prefer they either lean in to the nurse aesthetic more, or give counterplay to her like they do for singularity, Wesker, and other killers. She is genuinely the ONLY killer who I felt needs the counter play (except for plague, but she has it already so we don't have to worry about that) yet she is the ONLY killer who has NONE. Pallets and windows? Ignored. Wall? Phases through. Run away? Is it out of range of teleport though? We were lucky enough she no longer benefits from exposed when teleporting. Granted- she IS slow. Forcing her to rely on teleporting to get on the map like sadako/dredge would be nice. Except that unlike dredge and sadako she has the tools to end chase fast enough to keep her worth using.
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Reviving this because I'm petty: they changed the new skull merchant preview- yeah it isn't great either but they at least got the intent that we didn't like the last one. Now it's just a matter of them understanding what SPECIFICALLY we are trying to tell them. which is easier when the community simply points out "I don't like THIS PART specifically" rather than just "throw the whole thing away" which has been the main sentiment on these forums for everything.
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@ChuckingWong said:
Lotta reasons for it. Ill list a few
1) Teammate is afk
2) Someone is intentionally throwing since they didnt get their way
3) Someone is hiding to abandon their teammates and get hatch with a key
4) Someone loading in with perks (no mither for example and dying in 2 seconds) (adept attempts as well)
5) Tunneling/camping unreasonably
6) Playing a killer/addon that someone doesnt like (for good or bad reasons)
7) Having no throttle for your opponents (matchmaking is broken after all)
8) Map balance
9) Killer working with other survivors because they dont like your playstyle/perks(havent hooked you all round but you did gens/saves/heals)
Some from the survivors POV some from the killers POV. This is by no means and exhaustive list either rather keep it as short as I can though.I find that half of the time "giving up" is a cascading effect from the first person to do 1 through 3. Camping and tunneling isn't fun, but there are LOADS of perks to counter them by now. It's a matter of making use of the tools given rather than just being upset they try it at all. If you don't stop someone from making a goal- why wouldn't they kick the ball? It also doesn't help survivors either just DON'T save each other, or are more focused on that even compared to finishing gens and surviving.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3922135#Comment_3922135
You're still thinking in terms of preventing the initial injure, which is meant to be easy? My gosh. It's so hard to talk about balance with y'all because you're so far behind.
If that attack didn't have the auto-aim or the range, nobody would ever land that attack except for the top 0.1% of PC players. I want to play killers with functional powers, which I have control over more than the survivors do. Nobody wants to play a killer whose power is unable disabled all match, especially after basic interactions like breaking pallets.
I feel like it doesn't get emphasized enough that Kaneki CAN'T put people in the dying state with his power. It's like legion where he has to go on a short stun period when it ends to use normal attacks again. Can he catch up? Sure, but that still requires the normal m1 game play to do. Even sliding in front of a survivor is at least somewhat react-able. Legion is annoying- not broken. I feel we are going to get a wraith situation where people hate him because he's only useful for noob stomping- and it's because everyone hated him after his rework until they figured out how to cheese him.
Bad Survivors (I say bad as in low skill and not getting better- not sabotaging, those who just get in a match and let themselves die really should just get banned already. For other survivors if no one else.) often aren't willing to engage with the game mechanically beyond "perks, gens, leave, bloodpoints" Which is silly. As someone who finds making builds for survivor/killer the most fun part about this game- if you aren't willing to learn the mechanics of a killer you are going against OR the perks a survivor might use then you are setting yourself up for failure. It's not even a matter of going to a separate wiki anymore, you can click on a character and see their perks IN GAME.
Deep wound is just 2 effects: endurance doesn't work (You can't get a free hit/second chance while it's on you), and when not running it has a period before it puts you into dying state (healing from you or anyone else can remove it, and I do believe it is either chase or just running in general that pauses the timer).
That isn't the most powerful of effects, yet people act like it's exposed or something.
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@Twiggsy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3923071#Comment_3923071
His token decrease isn't good enough it needs to be all his tokens to be more fair
If you mean blight? Yes, absolutely. Kaneki? I can't be so sure. Blight can put survivors in dying state with his power and kaneki can't. It's honestly the slide that makes it a problem more than anything. Which is unfortunate because it's the most fun part of his power.
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@JPLongstreet said:
How about allowing the other 70%+ of the playerbase access to the PTB's? More eyeballs and many more trials to test things through.
I understand the sentiment, but I feel like it's not a problem of people SEEING the bugs- it's a matter of them dealing with found problems before a chapter goes to live. Most bugs you see in live were already noted before the PTB ended.
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@LockerLurk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3921883#Comment_3921883
Frankly this is, once again, better than could have put it EVER and exactly why I don't play mich Survivor anymore except when my friends are on. Because other Survivors make Survivor less fun. The tunnelling camping slugging WHATEVER I am used to, that's part of the game, that's always going to be there.
it's when my teammates decide to crap on all of us and make the game harder for everyone by giving up. It's almost griefing at this point, and it makes ME want to also give up.You also make a good point Weaver that half the time, stuff that players directly asked for did nothing to actually improve Survivor side on SoloQ. Icons? Did not improve game quality but were very nice and needed, proving that no, it's not the disconnect between comms or no comms that makes Survivor games bad. It's other Survivors.
Ditto the AFC - another thing asked for, BEGGED for, much needed and added… but now Killers just play a dumb dance around it because defending hooks is much harder, or use it to stand near the hook and let Survs off so they don't self-end early or get ignored by their teammates playing Gens B4 Friends. Both of which massively ruin the game for Survivors who just didn't want to be face camped.
I have zero doubts the coming anti tunnel and anti slug will do the very same thing, sorely disappointing Survivors by not actually solving things they BELIEVE tunnelling and slugging to be, only fixing the REAL issue of hard tunnelling or 4-man-down slugging to bleedout, and then these players will be right back here whining aboth how Killers are the problem and not enough is being done.
When, when, WHEN are any of us actually going to realize that sometimes… just sometimes, the problematic people are Survivor players and the Killer is just innocently playing the damn game?We aren't. anything requiring someone to be self aware seems to negate at minimum 60% of the entire human population.
The fact that I can give examples of genuine improvements that people had no issues with, and how it did little to nothing for match health- yet people still think I'm biased for a role I USED to only play. Like- I'm only a "killer majority" player because my time from dredge to singularity/vecna (as in the chapters they came in) were mostly killer focused. Ever since I came back it's been mostly god awful survivor games. Yes, some killers camp and tunnel- it's hard to tell when people literally walk into the killers arms either first thing in the match, after being hooked ONCE, or just being plain idiotic and not waiting to see if the killer will leave hook for 10 seconds before rushing in like you're Rambo.
Don't blame killers- you are supposed to coordinate together, that's the POINT of survivor. Perks don't change that, Killers don't change that, and NONE of the things survivors complain about change that. Legion (and to an extent kaneki) is one of the few killers that punishes working as a team- and usually in a legion games I see that cause was from people just self-mending rather than getting help which is FAR SLOWER. Survivors waste their own time, each other's time, and the killers time.
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also a bit of a side rant on the subject of survivors blaming killers for their own issues- Legion isn't that much of a problem. Literally, they can't down you when they are using their deep wounds attack when running. The feral frenzy only lasts 11 seconds unless they try chaining them for more, which requires survivors to be nearby to repeat. The cooldown for that ability is 15 seconds. They have to end their ability early and put it on that cool down to put a survivor on the ground- only when they land their fifth hit with that specific attack without going on cool-down can they "avoid wasting" their power. If you are in groups of two, or just don't have all four survivors in the same area, then you've functionally made their power just "apply deep wounds on basic attacks and move faster for a short time". People keep complaining about legion hitting them by cancelling the power- and that's even more baffling to me. When they cancel their power they have a stun duration before they can walk normally again, meanwhile you get a speed boost when being hit. How much of an edge do you need in chase? It isn't like kaneki where their ability's mobility let's them negate the distance from the stun- they still move at normal speeds when it's over. You can force legion to either a: dedicate an entire feral frenzy and it's cool down to put ONE survivor in the dying state (whether it be canceling it early and not applying deep wounds to ANYONE else, or just having to go through all 5 attacks) or B: force them to only use feral frenzy on SOME of your group and cancelling it after so they can get a final hit (assuming you don't have literally all 4 survivors together- but at this point everyone who would be arguing with me should ALREADY KNOW that's not good) meaning they have less speed when moving across the map (which already is piss poor unless you are near a survivor for a last second attack) or at least have to spend time hunting survivors like any other m1 killer instead of having the entire team be wounded constantly.
I'm mostly saying this because I remember hearing legion getting SO MUCH FLACK for how annoying they were. I avoided playing them for the most part because I didn't want to be "THAT GUY". Yet, when I played as survivor? Hardly an issue. The biggest problem were survivors wasting time mending themselves (which is slower than healing each other) or just dying to the deep wounds/ letting legion catch them after cancelling their power. That was one of the major "OH I see now" moments that changed my opinion on most of the takes from "survivor players"
(which, let's be honest- is just a term that feeds into the "us vs them" narrative that so many on both sides that want brain dead easy games use to justify their awful takes. Nurse IS op, she can ignore ANY obstacle that survivors are meant to use to delay dying. Killers on average ARE at a disadvantage compared to survivors, it's a fundamental part of the game's design killers need to wear down survivor resources to gain the advantage later in that match. both of these things can be and have proven to be true.)
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Blight DOES lose his power. Like, when you break a pallet it goes on cooldown- part of why he is strong is it doesn't remove ALL of his tokens and starts the cooldown from how many he had. I'd argue between blight and kaneki that Blight deserves it more- but both technically deal with the same thing to different levels.
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@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3922285#Comment_3922285
Yeah, Duty of Care puts the person running it at risk. It's an altruistic perk and as such I know I won't see it much in my games.
Survivors are constantly told our problem is we don't play as a team. And that's why the solo experience sucks. Well BHVR have been nerfing the "rat" perks and giving us team perks to encourage and reward teamwork. People still aren't happy.
that sounds about right for this community tbh. If there is one thing I learned from my time playing team games- it's no one is as generous or helpful as they like to think they are.
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I don't get why everyone is upset at duty of care? The entire point of protection hits is to save an injured survivor, all this does is help with that. I highly doubt it will make YOU faster as well.
Right?
@daikaimon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3922223#Comment_3922223
At PTB, Kaneki seemed to be on both sides of the issue. It is hard to believe that we will know how well the killer performs on the first day of official sales. Everyone will understand the performance through actual gameplay.
This is why I do not want to buy FNAF chapters. If I did purchase one, it would probably be after a certain period of time.
As for this: Kaneki was bugged to hell in the initial PTB, it was only when he went live that we got to see how he would actually play because HIS PROGRAMMING WORKED. It's an example of how Behavior is failing to use one of the most valuable tools to improve a character before trying to make people pay for it. PTB doesn't just have to be "Oh, this bug exists- noted!". If they had a second phase where they could at least let us try the killer WITHOUT the enourmous bugs, things like this wouldn't happen. If we got to play against unbugged kaneki in the PTB, unnerfed Kaneki would have never made it to live.
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@TragicSolitude said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3921883#Comment_3921883
Me and a few other people on the forums have been saying for years that survivors are their own worst enemy. It's not the killers, it's our teammates. It's such a hard thing to get a lot of people to see. They see the killer using some unfun tactic but not the reason why that's occurring. I'm usually observant enough to see what's going on and yeah, the survivor's cause a large number of their own problems. And unless the killer is super nice it becomes my problem, too. I'll help teammates who are even halfway decent but I'm not taking on the extra burden of teammates who are awful and sandbag everyone just so I can die while they get all the rewards of escaping. We'll die as a team.
SBMM and its horrible execution made playing survivor a damn nightmare. I had better matches when it was the emblem system determining rank, because I could kind of influence where I was in the ranking and generally get teammates I worked well with.
Every time I get frustrated and quit playing early for the evening, it's because of other survivors. And when I take breaks from the game (like right now), I miss interacting with killers a bit but I'm so damn happy to not deal with other survivors for a while.
THIS!!!! It's always harder to admit when someone who is meant to be "on my side" is the cause of the problem- but you'll NEVER be able to get what you want until you can admit that. Whether to just prove you ACTUALLY care about making progress, or just so they won't be sabotaging you anymore.
Let's be honest, though. It doesn't matter how many times you say it. They already know you are right.
The question isn't if you are right. It's "How do I know this person isn't just trying to provide a smokescreen because they are the same?"
So often you can look into the people who post things that are "US VS THEM" and it always comes off like they care less about making the game fun and more about blaming others for why things suck.
Like- I don't WANT to say survivors are at fault. Heck, when I was a killer main I BELIEVED they weren't. It wasn't until I started playing survivor I realized that the "killer mains" were right.
Because they were never "killer mains"- just people who prioritized the games health and were demonized for it. People who wanted to have fun, and were prevented. Because I've yet to meet anyone who said SBMM works, that I couldn't look at their account to find it either "private" or a history of being self-contradictory just to argue with others more.
The problem with the game is the same one as the forums- The community isn't policing itself, and neither is behavior. No accountability means no stability, and no stability is how a game dies.
I'd gladly report ANY killer for camping and tunneling at 5 gens, so long as the survivors understand why I want to report a survivor for dying on hook instead of just disconnecting. It's the same result, but dying on hook is slower and more deliberate for no benefit. It's spiteful and nothing else. Because if you really wanted to play the game so bad a penalty timer is a problem? You would want to play bad enough that you won't quit a match unless you have a REASON for it.
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@cesspoolechochamber said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3914626#Comment_3914626
You do realize the majority of the player base is solo que? We never had this rampant of dc or giving up in the past. Also if majority of your player base is quitting because games aren't fun the solution isn't to ignore them and help the rest or buff them. It should be to buff solo q. The only thing they did was implement icons next to the players name to let you know if your teammate is doing something or not.
This is further elaborating on a point already made clear: players like you, whether justifying OR engaging in this behavior, are the cause for the game's decline. Giving a person 'more' only helps if they will actually take advantage of it. Otherwise, it's just giving a man a fish but not teaching him to feed himself. Survivors giving up was ALWAYS a problem, just like how they used to go out of their way to make playing the game unpleasant for KILLERS earlier in the game's history.
At some point you are going to have to understand that KILLERS CAN'T STOP YOU from sabotaging your team. If they leave you on the floor to get picked up? It's slugging. If you have to down a survivor because they won't get out of your way as soon as they get unhooked AND don't run away after they lose the endurance? Then you're "tunneling", even if you didn't WANT to target them. Anything a killer COULD do to at least buy other survivors time is already demonized for one reason or another despite the fact survivors are often CHOOSING to get themselves killed and lose the game.
Remember how you said "the only thing they gave solo queue was those icons"? That was what the community ASKED FOR, claiming it was discord players not needing information perks that made solo queue terrible. Yet every time I look at the icons, all I see is people REFUSING to repair a single generator. I am SEEING as a survivor that other survivors are the problem, and blaming it on killers is just so you all don't have to admit survivors are the MOST toxic side of dbd. It's to the extent they can't even get along WITH EACH OTHER when that is the entire POINT of the game. I was a killer main then the same reason I gave up on being one now- survivors are so apathetic to the fun of others, that it's going to ruin people's perception of the game overall.
Consider: why shouldn't a killer slug or tunnel if the game is going to be a foregone conclusion? When EVERY MATCH has someone intentionally let themselves die early, dooming the team to a loss, why pretend like the game isn't already over? Why pretend like it isn't going to happen again when it's happened every game you've played for the last year?
Why should I care about your fun, when your own team mate is the reason you won't have any- and you'll blame me for it anyway?
It used to just be "bully squads". Now? Now everyone ELSE is also having to deal with others making the game horrible to play. It's not a new problem, you're just unable to ignore it now.
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@WolfyWood said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3914761#Comment_3914761
Not to mention everyone gets mad that people who go next are 'ruining' the experience but don't acknowledge the fact that the devs willingly put in perks and items that incentivize ratting and not doing gens for a solo escape.
This is one of the only games I know of where the devs balance around teamwork but you're allowed to have a loadout and playstyle that involves never helping your team once.
Solo-queue will never improve as long as people can just do three chests with their chest builds while someone is being chased and another is on a hook. Probably the biggest reason why my 'friend' goes next on hook often.
Except that still relies on you surviving to the end of the match. Usually when people say "giving up" they mean allowing themselves to die on hook or even speeding up the process.
THAT isn't acceptable. ESPECIALLY at the second state where there isn't even a 'risk' or benefit- just you reducing the time others have to save you or try and win the game. Yet it's the MOST COMMON form of "giving up" I've seen as survivor AND killer. I will hook a person ONCE, walk away immediately WHILE a survivor is going for the unhook- yet the survivor will STILL try to kill themselves on hook and get at least on "attempt" off in the process. They are actively throwing the game, not even for their own benefit.
There's a difference between selfishness and spite- most survivors have given up on the former to double down on the second thing WAY MORE than is healthy for the game.
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@mecca said:
I mean, as unbalanced as the game is, I'm surprised this is a question.
The question should be, how does anyone even want to play survivor in the first place.
I agree. As in, if you are just going to give up immediately- don't ruin MY matches by playing at all. Move on to somewhere else. I can handle losing in a video game- that doesn't mean I like having to see every other person throw my chances of winning away because they can't admit they aren't having fun and stop like an adult would. Whether you are a killer or survivor- NONE OF US appreciate you actively ruining our fun by making the imbalance WORSE. Just disconnect if nothing else, you obviously don't want to play- a temporary ban shouldn't make a difference to you. At the very least- more people should be reporting those killing themselves on hook for "bad sportsmanship". They are actively ruining the game experience for everyone else, I feel like it's reasonable to call that a bannable offense when there is another option RIGHT THERE.
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The solution is so simple in my view. Just make it to where if the first survivor that dies on hook has their blood points taken from them and distributed to the other survivors based on who spent the most time on generators, but ONLY if the dying survivor also used the "escape" mechanic on hook AND/OR didn't hit any of the skill checks on phase 2. This will punish people who don't try to survive UNTIL someone else already dies- which should theoretically allow survivors to make more progress until they can give up without punishment AND reward them for not giving up after someone else does. Then you further incentivize DC instead of escape by hook, by not putting a ban on them- but instead they also don't gain blood points BUT they keep any items that weren't used up by the time they disconnected (so if someone has something come up they aren't punished for having a life outside of DBD).
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@Mondhirsch said:
As we know most cheaters have an unlimited number of sock accounts thanks to the epic giveaway.
BHVR should lock every EPIC Account that were giving out for free so the users have to buy the base game to re-unlock the game. As compensation for the honest players which got the game for free and which now had to buy the game BHVR should give them Auric Cells in value of the price they had to pay to re-unlock the game.
- So cheaters will lose the ability to get new accounts for free
- honest players will get their money back in form of Auric CellsDon't know if this is possible or even legal but that would help alot against the cheater problem.
I think it would be far simpler to require Epic accounts to do a passive "test" to prove they are human when logging in. Worst case scenario- even if it would take a while, altering the game to have some non-client side checks that are run consistently in the background over the course of a game to ensure nothing is tampering with the program could work. For example, a small program/system keeping track of what perks and abilities are brought to the match. Each client is only allowed certain effects based on their perks, items, and (more relevant for killers, but it would also prevent survivor → Killer changes by hackers) character selected. Everything that happens clientside has to be sent to the admin end, and then is "checked" with how the game would properly run with all of the "relevant variables" in that situation. Any inconsistency gets flagged. If any of those variables change or an effect not associated with that specific perk/ability and also not "approved" by the admin side of the connection (such as for events or chaos shuffle), then that could be another flag for the system. When the client-side reports something that is inconsistent with what the Admin side reported in the past, then the admin side takes note of which client did so and what was different. It could also COMPARE client side changes to further ensure no funny business. Survivor A reported having a certain perk effect from Surviovr B? Check if survivor B is meant to have said perk and if it was available to use.
TLDR: just having the info be required to be sent to behavior's side of things alone would allow for them to "check" for anything that wouldn't make sense without hacking. They wouldn't need to know "how or why" the person is hacking, just that what they are doing doesn't make sense from the perspective of the code/normal mechanics.
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Dredge is PAINFUL without the boat key, and malthinker's skull is the ONLY reason why a dredge will get more than maybe 3 uses of nightfall a match. Without them? You take what feels like forever to get from your starting point to the locker, and your nightfall is NOT powerful or avaliable nearly enough to make up for that. Granted, Dredge in general feels like they could use a touch up IMO. I feel like anything dredge does, a good singularity could do better. Anti-loop? teleportation and faster vault/break speed. Map traversal? Teleportation is just faster than dredge's, even with addons, and gives you the anti-loop rather than taking it away like on dredge. Heck, the faster interaction is also more consistently useful- even if you are making a misplay it takes up less of your time than normal. Dredge? When you place down your remannt it feels like a 50/50 on if someone runs away or just tries to touch and erase it. Unknown and Trapper at least have a small interaction required, and knight can keep a survivor occupied without your input. Dredge? Have a short hop instead of a teleport- no the cool down isn't any lower stop asking.
Yeah, on second thought I think it might be more than just the add-ons dredge needs help with.
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THANK YOU! I had this idea too, and loved it the moment it entered my brain.
Imagine a class of survivor perks that just have silly requirments but powerful effects.
Shaggy gets a Sprint burst, except instead of making you exhausted, it temporarily forces you to be unable to move (The animation would be the classic shaggy running midair before swooshing off)- the longer you stay in that state the greater speed boost you get if you aren't injured while it is in use.
Fred could have his own trap perk, except it requires him to be within the area to activate. If the killer hits a generator, they are stunned- but more importantly the survivors working on generators get a bonus to their repair speed and the bonus from great skill checks for a short time.
Velma would obviously have some form of aura reading, she was THE clue finder. Although I'd like them to represent her absolute fearless nature even when faced with a "monster". Ironically, if any of the gang were to throw hands with a killer- I would place my bets on her. The closest we would probably get could be some kind of flashlight perk where you gain tokens that let you see killer aura, but you only gain tokens when pointing a flashlight at the killer for a certain amount of time. I would prefer it not to rely on outright blinding since lightborn would functionally make it useless like flashlights are as is when someone uses it.
Daphne would be somewhat harder to pin down in terms of perks. She always struck me as more of the "glue" of the gang, someone who kept things running smooth as a group. I figure some team-based perks would fit that, but honestly that I would leave to discretion.
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@DeBecker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3911560#Comment_3911560
The only thing you brought up is anti-face camp. Which is a prime example for NOT listening to feedback, cause nobody asked for a anti-face-camp solution, but players wanted a anti-camp solution. They just changed the issue towards proxy camping, which became way worse than before.
The rest of your post are just failed insults.
I literally mentioned how they have gone out of their way to try and give us information on things such as the next Skull Merchant redesign before even getting it to PTB. They literally just said "hey, before we work on this- is this something you would want?". If outright asking the community "is what we're planning something you would actually like" doesn't count as trying to listen to feedback, then there is literally no definition you could come up with that would be healthy for the game.
Heck, I don't recall hearing many updates on that since the community mostly said they didn't like the idea- which implies they probably are going back to the drawing board- listening to the community not wanting those changes.
Your entire rebuttal was "you don't have an argument" after I give you multiple. Then you ignore one of them to say the other argument you claimed I didn't have wasn't good enough- because despite it reducing one problem it made another worse?
News flash: good players adapt. There was always going to be some annoying strategy killers leaned more heavily into as a way to make up for what the devs did. It's how people create and play a "meta".
Also, "face camping isn't camping" is the exact same logic as "a square isn't a rectangle" It's literally just a more specific version of the original idea. Any attempt to go after camping would inevitably backfire, survivors already have plenty of tools to make it harder for a killer to keep someone on a hook against a good team as is, camping and tunneling are just killers taking advantage of the average survivor not being capable of good decision making. People complained about camping, other people were worried that being too harsh on camping could result in harming the ability for killers to play the game even when NOT camping. They tried to take both of those into account with those changes, they even explained their thought process when introducing it. Just because it isn't "good enough" doesn't mean there wasn't an attempt.
Seriously, if you think it's so easy to handle proxy camping- describe how YOU would deal with the problem. You seem so sure they aren't putting in actual effort, yet other than insulting the things they did TRYING to appease the community- you provide no solutions beyond "be better".
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@terumisan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3910114#Comment_3910114
the game is inherently us vs them because this is a pvp game where 1 guy goes against 4 (unless bhvr is going to bust out killer bots when there isn't enough killers or when the killer disconnects) the killer should have the advantage because he can only chase 1 person at a time while the other 3 can focus on the objective the reason i say survivors are terrible is because they don't focus on gens solely and get scared of tr, are bad at looping or doing something else
"making the game more fun" for whom killer or survivor? since it's a pvp game you can only focus on 1 sides fun or the other and the devs choose to focus on the survivors fun because statically survivors are the majority since they are the 4 in the 4v1. it's also the reason why the majority of killers are unviable when you get to the upper tiers when why you see mainly blights spirits nurses weskers but when something strong comes out here comes survivors to cry and have killers dumpstered for months or years until they're merciful enough to buff some killers
So moving beyond how every other comment you make is about how survivors just want hand outs, the GAMEPLAY is us vs them. Taking people being on the opposite side in a pvp game is just a personal failing tbh. Heck, saying that one side enjoying the game means the other side can't is just a silent admission you only care about winning. I can lose a game and still have enjoyed myself, it's about the game not the win screen.
Beyond that, Killer DOES have the advantage. Survivors rely on pallets and windows to survive when detected- and there are PLENTY of info perks before you even talk about killer powers. The longer a match goes on, the less resources survivors SHOULD have at their disposal. The skill in killer comes from forcing them to use those resources while also being enough of a threat to other survivors that they don't breeze through gens. The problem with killers at high tier isn't "they are weak" it's that survivors are actually good at the base game mechanics and basic teamwork. If this game didn't have solo queue- then that would be a much easier problem to solve. However- solo queue exists and is the MAIN REASON I don't play survivor often compared to killer.
Survivors win more often at high ranks because most killers aren''t usually dealing with a good team until that point. If other solo-queue players did gens while I was looping the killer, at least 30% of losses that had all 4 of us die would have gotten at least one person out. Good survivors don't struggle with that, they are always trying to be efficient with their time. When match starts? Survivors have the most leeway, and good survivors do as much possible during that time frame to have the best chance at winning. Blight and Nurse? They basically can ignore that early game build up altogether (blight is so fast that survivors have no room to build momentum before you are on at least one of them, and Nurse can just ignore pallets and windows).
Blight and nurse aren't strong at high level play because they are "the only viable killers" they are the best because you can more easily negate the ONLY advantage survivors have outside of teamwork. Pallets and windows can CARRY a game when used right, it's a matter of conserving them when possible so they can continue to do so later on.
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@DeBecker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3910759#Comment_3910759
How can you still pretend that? You have no arguments going for you.
I can tell you didn't even read the post. I literally gave examples of the improvements they did.
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@I_Cant_Loop said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3910289#Comment_3910289
what’s my “real intent”, since you can apparently read my mind?
The queue times shifted a lot just after Ghoul was released. How do I know? I actually play both sides. Every evening during peak times, killer queue times are very quick (at least in my region - eastern US). Immediately after Ghoul was released, killer queue times were longer the survivors queues even during peak evening times. I’ve never seen that happen before, even with previous killer releases.
You don't even need to play both sides. It straight up tells you which side has less people playing when it gives them the blood point bonus.
The shift had gone to survivors BEFORE the ghoul even left PTB. I am in eastern US, I have been experiencing this since before the update. You might have noticed it more after ghouls was release, and they might have made it worse, but the problem was already there.
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It's funny how everyone in this post is acting like I am against improvement to solo queue.
I don't recall where I implied solo queue isn't awful in this post?
Don't get me wrong, it isn't mentioned enough how the SURVIVOR'S BEHAVIORS are the major problem plaguing solo queue, however there is still room for improvement on the dev side of things (especially in terms of punishing people for throwing and giving up).
I have been playing solo queue survivor, I have SEEN how easily most of you give up and actively throw in one way or another. The reason I hate survivor isn't the gameplay, I actually LIKE playing survivor. It's just on average survivors suck far worse than is reasonable, assuming they aren't actively sabotaging. Solo queue isn't the problem, we just aren't willing to admit that the survivor half of the community sucks FAR MORE than people are willing to admit (in terms of skill, and with how they treat each other). I would love to play both sides, but the other people ON MY TEAM make the experience less fun- forcing me to the killer role.
Yes, fix solo queue- I never said otherwise and acting like I did is being disingenuous. However, there is a very obvious trend for survivors to not at all question how they personally can improve at the game.
News flash: You don't need to escape to rise in ranks. It's just the EASIEST way to do that. Saving survivors? Repairing gens? Touching Totems? Looping the killer? ALL of those can get your match rank up. It's about being GOOD ENOUGH at all of those to pull your weight. Most of you struggle to do more than repair gens and unhook other survivors- if that. How can we expect solo queue being better to solve your problems when you can't even play the game properly?
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@DeBecker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3910150#Comment_3910150
They never listened more to their community. Every (mid)chapter they refuse to acknowledge the feedback given wioth resonable postings. Instead they make more and more poor decisions and counteract their own game. Literally each change isnt thought out enough.
You are a prime example of what I am talking about. You complain and nothing else. Whenever they TRY to communicate more, all you respond with is "YOU WON'T LISTEN, WAH WAH WAH" and it comes off as more complaining for the sake of it.
They already were posting their ideas for skull merchant for criticism BEFORE saying it would even reach PTB (which they never said it would I believe. I think they were looking for community feedback before going further). Did that just mean nothing to you? The way you respond implies that no, it really didn't mean jack all.
YOU are killing this community. Everyone LIKE YOU are making things worse. Yes, we need to call out bad practices- but how are they supposed to improve with NO POSITIVE FEEDBACK?
If every piece of advice is "here's why this sucks"- how are they supposed to know what is salvageable and what isn't? Imagine if they had showed all three skull merchant power designs side by side, then asked you to rate them. Based on this comment I am almost certain you would provide so little positive affirmation that they wouldn't even be able to tell which one you hated the least, much less what ideas they could recycle for later.
You and the "They only listen to X side" hive mind are all just making the forums less useful for them than they could be. Genuinely, if you aren't willing to be constructive and provide actually usable information, just play the game and ignore the forums. The less cooks in the kitchen, the less people who care more about the game have to talk over you.
People are trying to give ideas for how the game can be fun for BOTH SIDES and consistently. That isn't what you are doing, nor is anyone sharing similar sentiments. There have been PLENTY of ideas players wanted in the game that got added.
We wanted anti-face camp and we got it. We needed more information in solo queue during and before a match- they already gave us the mid-match UI and I'm pretty sure they JUST put out an update that let's you see other survivor builds in the same lobby.
They HAVE improved. You are just too hell bent on pointing the finger at them for any and every cause for why you are unhappy.
Maybe it's time you look towards yourself for that, and let other people focus on making the game fun when you return with a better perspective.
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@100PercentBPMain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3910240#Comment_3910240
"Charity begins at home" I guess. You can't help others if you can't help yourself. Not burdening others could be seen as a form of team play.
That may explain Ghouls placement as I see tons of people in my NA servers demand to be healed under hook, or try to heal me under hook.
Self caring in a corner against ghoul may unironically be less worse than being healed under hook and expecting the mobility killer to go into timeout.
I feel like "healing under hook" was always meant to be a killer specific strat. Trapper isn't going to be able to reach you in time, but of course blight is. Simply have the means to prevent the mobility killers from following you post unhook (such as removing scratch marks when running after an unhook), and the problem solves itself usually.
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@TragicSolitude said:
Well, you're saying that everyone wants to play killer, including yourself. Why is it you don't want to play survivor? If even the queue bonus isn't enough, what would you change so that more people would play survivor?
Disregarding the people assuming the ghoul is the sole cause of everything wrong with the queue right now- it's actually rather simple.
Survivors are the biggest problem, ironically.
The way the other people play is consistent and without skill. I try to go a support build? Even if I am the only one doing so, everyone else rushes towards hook like flies to dung. None of them actually benefit for getting the person off beyond the blood points, so my build is useless because people who aren't even using a kit that makes them more effective at it try to "save" another survivor- even when it just means they are more likely to lose ANOTHER hook state because the killer followed them running across the map to the hook. I try to do a gen build? Great, now we have 1 survivor consistently doing gens- except I'm lucky if I'm not forced to keep chase the entire game because all the other survivors can't last more than 30 seconds running from the killer. That would be fine, except even when not being harassed by the killer I see them doing nothing. No Chest, No totem, no generator, no healing. Doing not a thing.
When they get hooked? 9 times out of 10 they are rushing themselves to the second hook state, assuming they don't just go all the way and immediately spam the skill check to get them at the final death by the time I reach them.
The devs added an anti-face camp feature. The only downside was if a survivor kept hanging around as the killer camped- they essentially wasted their own time while also making it take longer for the survivor to be able to get off the hook. The solution would be simple: if a killer is camping- rush gens while they do so and punish the killer for playing that way. You don't hear about them doing that at all.
The Devs gave survivors Borrowed Time without needing the perk, and then made the perk increase the duration that effect lasts. Survivors still say tunneling is a problem, even after they are given endurance and haste when they get off the hook.
Survivors can't communicate? They add a UI to let you all see what others are doing even without using a perk. No changes in how survivors play, everyone still upset that other survivors aren't being useful.
The devs add more things to help survivors over time, and yet survivors never even imply things have improved. Why?
Because Survivors are what holds the role back, not mechanics. The devs need to actually start having negative consequences to punish players who sabotage their team (I'm sure you can think of plenty of ways that someone can sabotage their team. Simply make that an experience WORSE for the person doing it). Killing yourself on Hook? If you try to unhook yourself too consistently, and then also don't hit the 2nd hook state skill checks? Lose all of your survival category blood points. It requires a specific habit of behavior that makes the game harder for those in the match with you to win, and doesn't affect players unless they specifically are the ones doing it. Hit your skill checks on hook? Then you don't get the penalty, same thing for not trying to get off hook. Both of which mean you take longer to die and allow the team a chance to save you/win the game.
I'd LOVE to play survivor consistently, but it's OTHER SURVIVORS that make it a chore, not the game itself.
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Nothing I said is wrong. Even before PTB ended Survivor queue had the blood point bonus consistently.
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@I_Cant_Loop said:
I’ve never seen the queue times shift as much as they have with this new killer. It really tells you how unfun it is to play survivor now when killer queues are long even during peak evening times.
@I_Cant_Loop said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3910265#Comment_3910265
Survivor wasn’t bad at all before Ghoul released. I play solo queue and it was fine up until Ghoul. If you’re playing SWF friends on comms and still can’t have fun as survivor, that’s a you problem.
@I_Cant_Loop said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3910262#Comment_3910262
Delete Ghoul - that would get more people to play survivor.
It's rather easy to see your real intent behind these posts. Kaneki wasn't even out of the PTB before this started. I said as much. I left the PTB because the queues were just as bad there as they are now. Going to live servers didn't fix that. If Kaneki were the problem, it wouldn't have started before he came out.
Not to mention- survivor WAS awful before ghoul released. Playing survivor is always miserable because of other survivors, the killer usually is almost a non factor some matches. Having people actively throwing in every way possible, just to kill themselves on hook? It was constant.
Saying the queue "shifted" is outright dishonest. As I said earlier, Kaneki was in the PTB when this started. If survivors dropped the game even BEFORE Kaneki came out, then that's a good sign those weren't players worth prioritizing. They need people who will buy thing and actually play the game. Not people on forums complaining about stuff before they have even tried it, just to leave when they fix it anyway.
I have played against ghoul after the release- they weren't NEARLY as awful in either match compared to how people described them.
Heck, the "ghoul is OP" talk didn't even begin until AFTER the PTB was over. Before that everyone just hated him because "anime" and the fact they thought he was weak and buggy (which he was, sometimes you couldn't even use your power) I saw no one saying he was going to be a good killer.
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I haven't played in JP servers, but it strikes me as odd how antithetical the approach they are doing sounds.
In Rivals (you know what I am referring to) the asian servers are doing much better at teamwork, giving them an advantage compared to Western servers.
Yet self-care is indicative of a fundamental misunderstanding on the survivor side in asian servers for this game.
The time spent using self care is EXPONENTIALLY greater than having someone heal you- especially if they use perks that make healing others faster. It is often said in NA servers that self care is actively a throw pick when you use it.
Generators don't actually get done faster, because there are less consistently 4 survivors working on generators. The faster you heal, the faster you start repairing again. Especially since you often will be injured more than once in a match.
Killers need to force you to waste time and resources through the match, meaning the start of the match is where survivors are at their strongest. Leaving survivors to deal with their own issues later in the match is asking for a weak link to appear and to give the killer an opportunity to steamroll as the match goes on.
Survivors have a 4-1 numbers advantage on killer, yet it sounds like they don't utilize it by allowing a team to multitask and get multiple things done at once. If you have healed a survivor, now both of you can also move on to doing something else useful in the area with the time that survivor saved being healed by someone else instead of with self care alone.
There are multiple perks that benefit you for working as a team, and they can be very powerful. Survivor DBD is a team game, and playing it that way gives you a better chance at winning- but only if everyone is doing so.
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@Kazarin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3908052#Comment_3908052
I agree with you and this is also the same exact thing happening for the survivor side. Regardless of which side you play, with enough wins, you are going to inevitably meet someone who's sweatier than you and probably on 2 cans of g fuel.
And then those people who've finally met their match start to become frustrated and then blame the game for being imbalanced.
And then you have the mentality "this is a killer sided game" or "this game is survivor sided"
And then instead of proactive gameplay you just have a game of sabotage. Survivors try to hurt killers (through quitting and in-game harassment) and rage bait them. And killers try to camp gens for 20 minutes because they would rather hold survivors hostage if they know they can't kill them all. What happened to killers settling for a tie or giving the last survivor the hatch. Or survivors just letting the killer have a kill if its a 4 man escape. (Yes technically it's against the rules but that's up to behavior to bureaucraticly enforce. In other words it's just a safety rule.)
The end result is that the game becomes having the words on your screen "you escaped" or "merciless victory". And the game is not even about having fun and enjoying the experience.
This is certainly an issue and a question to ourselves. Are we playing to see some specific words on a screen and have satisfaction in a specific in game- event (escaping or killing all survivors)? Or is it for the gameplay?
Because at the end of the day, the person who's sweating their chest off, becoming stressed over winning in a game is going to have less fun than a casual zen player.
Most of this post feels like a needless digression. Most of the problems you mention are made WORSE by Blight and Nurse being so much better than other killers by default.
Sweaty killers and survivors? Survivors have to deal with a blight and nurse, who both reduce how effective the main tool survivors rely on (Pallets and windows) to win the match. They have had to adapt to that. Killers have been forced to adapt to survivors playing increasingly optimized builds to have a chance against those sweaty killers, becoming sweaty themselves.
It's a vicious cycle, that is only reinforced by Blight and Nurse.
How are you supposed to argue that this game Isn't killer sided to someone when we can't even admit that Nurse and Blight ARE overtuned? How are we supposed to argue survivors aren't given an advantage when they get to keep things that make other killers exponentially harder, just so they can have a chance against the two killers that outclass them all (Styptics being an example, but also just think of how many "QOL changes" were focused on reducing the pressure killers could place on survivors)?
These two killers totally alter how the devs have to handle balancing this game, and it gets in the way of actual improvement.
Remember when nurse could just teleport and instantly put a survivor in the dying state with exposed because of a single perk? How that one perk alone made her near unstoppable in competent hands?
That perk wasn't THAT strong if survivors didn't just harass killer while they were picking up a dying survivor, however nurse alone forced behavior to change how it works so nurse wouldn't cause that problem.
Those two killers stick out like a sore thumb, and make the game worse for it. Yet anytime someone tries to talk about fixing the problem, people try to shift the conversation away from the gaping wound on the balance of this game.
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It's funny how the majority of people complaining are upset about them listening to the community MORE. The thing they used to REFUSE to do, and was why people started to quit the game. They are in a no win situation where both options are things the community complained about. Even when they give us a heads up on ideas they are working on, trying to do quality control that ACTUALLY takes what we want into account, the community still doesn't let up on the criticism on all fronts.
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@WholesomeNebula said:
I've got like 1800hrs, been playing since the Nemesis chapter. I have never seen a killer as awful to play against on release as the Ghoul. He's just miserable, zero fun to play against at all. Most of the time I see survivor mains complain about a new killer, I brush it off, even though I'm a solo surv main. I find a lot of complaints about "OP killers" overblown and not accurate. But this killer is just awful, no redeeming qualities whatsoever. I track my stats, since release, I've got him at a 80.4% kill rate. That is team wide, I spectate all the matches I get sacrificed in just to see the end results. I personally have escaped him 6 out of 26 matches, but 3 of those were on his release date. So you can chalk that up to killers not having figured him out yet or knowing what the strongest perks are for the new killer. They have clearly figured it out now, as most are running the same group of expose perks now.
Since his release I've played 45 total matches. 26 were this killer. Idk how people even manage to not DC or give up every time he shows up. My running escape average as a solo survivor is usually around 45%, give or take. My escape rate against this killer is 23% and dropping.
/Rant. Anyway, I haven't used a map offering in years, and I wanted to know what maps are worst for this killer? Are any of them harder for the Ghoul to play on?The less open space for the killer to slide- the worse it is for them. The asylum would probably suck hardcore. However I did well on the borgo once, so maybe it's a matter of how often they have objects to latch and leap from like blight.
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@ForumPikmin said:
Here yall go, doomposting about how Killer is dying for the 1914648164241541984525th time again, and using (checks notes) a time limited mode to prove your point.
@Darkest_Night said:
At this point it very much seems like BHVR is trying to drive away a good portion of their player base with these reworks, mainly killers. If you want people to stick around besides flocking back to a new chapter it would probably help if you stop gutting one side's perks and ability to do things, while also giving the other side to openly circumvent the mechanism in place that made something viable.
8 gen kick limits, revealing hexes, gutting perks that are barely run to make them more appealing..... You're taking away aspects of fun that will kill the enjoyment. This event is a pretty good example. Survivor perks work on the blood gens, but killer perks and add one don't? That's ridiculous. So long to the fun game we used to have and say hello to new and improved slog fest where nobody is happy
It's made worse with the context of having survivor having the blood point bonus (as in, the rewards for playing the side with the smaller queue) for the last 4 days. I haven't been able to get into a lobby as killer for up to an hour, meanwhile survivor queue doesn't have ENOUGH players forcing me to wait until enough people join until the match starts.
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@buggybug said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3908345#Comment_3908345
As I said before sometimes tiers means nothing s a b c z whatever, everyone is different some people can handle some killers better than others hence yes my point why I have no personal issue with nurse or blight compared to others like singularity.
When the main tools a survivor has are pallets and windows- then you provide killers whose powers have the main effect of being able to ignore/bypass them… yeah. They aren't in the same league.
Singularity at least has to apply an effect on a survivor to break pallets faster, Blight and Nurse can ignore them Off-rip.
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@terumisan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3908199#Comment_3908199
no? that means whenever a survivor hits a wall and either choose to get better or cry to bhvr to get something nerfed and they always choose the latter and because they always choose the latter the vast majority of survivors are terrible at the game
So your big rebuttal is just "nuh-uh" from what I've gathered. You haven't provided any examples to prove your point, and you just repeat your opinion without any other explanation. Am I right? Because that's overall how it comes off. If you have actual points to argue against my assessment of the current state of survivor play, feel free to actually mention them. Right now it comes off more like someone wanting to make this a "us vs them" post rather than actually trying to figure out how to make the game more fun.
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@terumisan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3908199#Comment_3908199
no? that means whenever a survivor hits a wall and either choose to get better or cry to bhvr to get something nerfed and they always choose the latter and because they always choose the latter the vast majority of survivors are terrible at the game
This is giving off serious "Pull yourself up by the bootstraps" energy. If the vast majority of survivors are really just that bad, then why have some people been saying playing against kaneki has gotten easier? I know you've seen that post, because you claimed it was survivors getting better at the game rather than the killer MMR leveling out. Yet here you claim all survivors don't even bother to try and get good at the game? Seems extremely inconsistent to me. If survivors could just "get better" against Kaneki within a week, why wouldn't they be able to do the same for Blight and Nurse who have both been out for years?
If you complained about survivors being able to consistently get 4 man escapes, and that the killer going against them felt impotent to stop them. What would be the difference between you wanting balance and them "crying to behavior"?
Nothing. There is no difference, because all I did was explain what is going on for survivors in solo queue in a killer perspective.
Survivors can work well together, can bring great perks and items, be extremely efficient in repairing gens, and even play extremely well. Then, one or two mistakes is all it takes for a nurse or blight to entirely shift the match back into their favor.
Most people are only "better" at killer only because they don't have to coordinate with people you can't talk to. You don't have to rely on other people to do what needs getting done, you can just do it on your own. Survivors can't do that. If you are being chased, someone still needs to do generators. If there is a totem, someone needs to deal with that while also hoping there is someone doing the other two things. If anyone is hooked or injured, that's another thing you have to deal with. Survivors have to balance all of these things, and their main tool to do that is functionally mute unless you actively get a group and play together consistently in discord.
If you're just on the forums to troll, then go to twitter. If you actually think survivor is stupid easy, then go play the role. It's giving plenty of blood points now, if there really isn't a problem with it- that should just be a bonus you can take advantage of.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3908181#Comment_3908181
But anytime anyone ever talks about bringing teams like that down a peg, the answer is always "but they are rare"
Ok fine, i flip it back to you. Those God tier nurses and blights are also rare. Nurse often has one of the lowest if not THE lowest kill rate in the game. So why does she need to be nerfed again? Because its pretty rare to run into a good one after all.
yes, many OTHER people do say that about survivor squads. I haven't though. I would argue the opposite.
Something coming that far out of left field ISN'T fair or fun. That's WHY Nurse and Blight are a problem.
SWF and Nurse/Blight are in the same boat. Those who take advantage of them make the game far more difficult for those of us who don't. Just being in a discord call makes most info perks on survivor redundant if you know the maps to any real degree.
The issue is very much the community refuses to give any ground on either side. BOTH sides need to have their extremes toned down.
I CAN beat a survivor group with Trapper- that doesn't change the fact a SWF group would turn him around, bend him over, and give him the thousand years of pain technique.
A person CAN do poorly with Nurse or blight, but if they aren't most people don't have the tools to combat those killers on a hot streak.
It always comes down to counterplay. The more potent something is, the more you need to fine tune the ability for an opponent to kneecap that threat/obstacle by doing the right things. Survivors don't have that against a good nurse (and to a MUCH MUCH lesser extent blight), and any killer that can't be across the map in less than 5 seconds usually is in the same boat.
Blight and Nurse NEED to be nerfed, which will allow SWF to be nerfed…. after that? BUFFS ALL AROUND!
Solo queue awful? well if SWF isn't oppressive anymore there isn't a problem with fixing it and providing help!
(Although, the devs added an entire UI to the left for survivors and that still wasn't enough. There is still a point where it's a skill issue- but just insulting a player by saying that just makes them more hesitant to ever consider agreeing. It's basic Psych 101, and most people in the forums fail to get that.)
Killer too weak? Give them a little boost! Mechanic is useless? Tinker around- there isn't any glaring problems tearing the community apart! (beyond the community refusing to chill out for 5 seconds, take a break, and come back with a fresh healthy mindset. Doing that made a world of difference for how I handle this game) The world becomes our devs oysters the moment SWF and those two killers aren't strangling their creativity and the game's potential.