WolfyWood
WolfyWood
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I wish this forum had signatures. So many quotable posts in here now
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3927408#Comment_3927408
It does have consequences. It degrades the integrity of the match. If we're being fair then the killer should be able to abandon as soon as it's all bots for the win. At that point the match is over.
I agree with your suggestion.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3927389#Comment_3927389
We both agree it's extremely rare. I agree that in the hypothetical scenario that you're all 4 slugged, being bled out, and there's no perks to save yall, that is an issue. However it's such a rare issue that it is hardly worth addressing and even if we did, it would need to be addressed in a way that only fixes that problem. The abandon feature goes WAY far above and beyond preventing a hostage or bleed out scenario. It is not a hostage prevention feature, it's a go next faster feature. A go next faster feature, while convenient, is not good for the game. If it was actually for preventing just those bleed out scenarios I'd be fine with that.
It was common enough for the devs to address it, which they did.
Abandon being used to 'go next' is just a by-product of an actual healthy fix and going next in this situation has no negative consequences unless you want to bleed-out players or force them to watch a mori. I don't see why either of these should be mandatory, having them be optional is fine.
The killer gets to win, survivors get to move on from a lost match. Nobody is losing out.
Again, I am aware this logic could be applied to the OP's idea, but in that case, the by-product is being made the actual feature, which opens the door to constantly petitioning for more and more ways to abandon a match, there's literally a post in this very thread stating the killer should be able to open the door at any point in the trial, for example.
@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3927374#Comment_3927374
Mandy’s statement literally said “the killer can do a lot to force survivors out of the match”. That statement is incorrect if the survivors are hiding in random parts of the map, until the EGC is almost done.
“The killer would be playing the entire time” isn’t relevant, because that wasn’t Mandy’s statement.
The statement isn't incorrect because it was never made to be an objective statement. You are the one trying to force objectivity in that the killer would never be able to find survivors in the scenario you have created, which not only doesn't fit, but is nonsensical in nature.
Furthering that, the killer would still have autonomy in the situation you describe because they can still find the survivors who are hiding, and failing that, the game would still time out after two minutes.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3927374#Comment_3927374
You mean like the 1/100 chance you get bled out? I literally can't remember the last time this happened and I play way, way more than the average player.
Even if this was true (its not in my experience and I play a lot as well,) previously there was no solution to four man slug except for waiting the entire timer on the ground. Now there is a solution.
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@Crowman said:
It's always amusing the double standards people have towards killers.
It isn't a double standard if people tell you why Survivors get something that Killers don't.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3927327#Comment_3927327
Unless the killer finds all 4 survivors, and forces all 4 survivors out of the match, then the killer failed to force all the survivors out of the match, and therefore failed to make the ECG end quicker.
And how does this make what Mandy said incorrect? It shouldn't have to be stated that it wasn't an objective statement unless you're trying to force semantics.
In the 1/100 chance that the killer somehow fumbles so bad in the EGC that:
A - They have no idea where any survivors are
B - They have no perks/addons/powers that assist in finding survivors
C - The survivors all hide the entire two minute duration and escape at the last second
Then there already is a solution and this scenario isn't relevant to OP since the killer would be playing the entire time and there would be no BM in the Exit Gates.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3927316#Comment_3927316
Mandy’s argument was “the killer can do a lot to force survivors out of the match”, which just isn’t true if the survivors are purposely hiding in random parts of the map, to force the killer to wait the entire EGC.
Patrolling THE ENTIRE MAP is not “can do a lot”, because it’s not reliable at all. What often happens is the killer spends the entire ECG failing to find any survivors, then the survivors escape right at the end of the ECG, at which point the killer failed to force the survivors out of the match.
I don't speak for them. But it is true that you can do a lot.
I just dont think it's true a killer will consistently lose all four survivors and spend the entire EGC searching for them without finding any of them.
This sounds like a very niche situation that already has a remedy being that the EGC timer is faster when all four survivors are standing. And just because it can happen does not render the myriad of other situations where the killer is in control of how long the EGC will last invalid.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3927296#Comment_3927296
Or if they're just too good at looping, or there's too many broken loops left, to where the killer can't possibly get them? The killer's just their entertainment, their plaything at that point, whose time is getting wasted while the survivors show off and be toxic. I say either let them abandon the match as OP says, or let them open the exits themselves at any point. All of the survivor abandon conditions and lax DC penalties are for their convenience, more than anything. Why should killers be denied the same?
If you're able to be looped you're actively playing the game and there's no reason for abandon to be at play.
A four-slug is not the same at all. And like I said earlier, if we are going to add Abandon clauses for anything that feels bad where does it end?
@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3927293#Comment_3927293
What can killers do if the survivors are purposely hiding somewhere random on the map, and are purposely waiting until the EGC is almost over before going to the exit gates?
Are killers expected to be able to reliably find survivors that could be hiding anywhere on the map?
Even if you somehow lose all four survivors at the end of the match, you are still able to look and search for them, and it is reliable because towards the end they will funnel to the only two spots they can escape from.
It isn't guaranteed but it's a significant enough of a chance to where Abandoning is not warranted.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3927278#Comment_3927278
How is 4 survivors bleeding out on the ground for a few minutes any different than survivors teabagging at a gate and not leaving for a few minutes?
For one, EGC is half the timer as being bled out.
For two, EGC only lasts for if you let it as a killer.
Until the abandon feature, survivors were forced to wait out the entire bleed timer.
Not comparable at all.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3927278#Comment_3927278
The instant the final survivor hits the ground, is not a hostage situation either, yet here we are. If they had to wait at least like 30 seconds or something then I'd agree. How the abandon feature is currently used though is just to "go next" faster, in 99% of scenarios, not for hostage situations, even though that's what it "should" be. The system as it is now needs to be much stricter in when it allows abandonment, not just to be used as a time saving convenience as it is now.
If they put in the effort they could make exceptions if someone has slug perks but it's probably far easier to code in it's current iteration.
Yes it means people never watch moris or abandon during a four-slug. But why does it matter? The killer won already. Also, with a thirty second timer. The killer could just force a wiggle off and continue to do so until the bleedout timer ends.
I am also aware similar reasoning can apply to the OP's idea but I feel it's a dangerous route to tread.
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Abandon Feature exists to prevent hostage situations such as killers bleeding everyone out or survivors not doing gens.
EGC is not a hostage situation by virtue of still being able to hit, hook, or kill survivors.
You also have the agency to push them out or farm blood points elsewhere.
If we're going to add Abandon options just because something feels bad then they should let you Abandon If you get hit on hook or a gen gets popped in your face.
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@LockerLurk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3924443#Comment_3924443
Serious question: Are Killers EVER allowed to bring anything to counter items, in your eyes? Or is doing so "boring and sweaty"?
If so… why? Survivors get to counter Killer powers, why can't Killers have options to counter the equivalent of "powers" for Survivors in the form of items? Everything in the game is supposed to have a counter; Franklin's and Lightborne exist to do that. So do Weave Attunement and Two Can Play sort of. All three of them take up a perk slot that could have been better used on something like a chase perk or gen perk; the Killer is not taking perks like these to ruin your game or win harder, but to counter items. These are the ONLY four Perks that do something like this in the Game, and they aren't exactly common. They're there for less skilled Killers to take if they want them to help handle things like excessive blinds, medkits, etc. or to use as an optional perk to handle teams that focus on using strong items. It is okay to have things that counter mechanics, and item use is a mechanic.So what, exactly, is the issue here? It's just game balance…
You can bring whatever you want, I don't care and you're making this way more emotional/personal than it needs to be. Still doesn't change the fact that it's a boring perk.
Also, it's not comparable because survivors can't tell what killer they're going against. The killer however, can see items and take perks to make them useless.
If you think survivors should be happy that they have a chance to waste their item every game I don't know what to tell you.
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@ChuckingWong said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3925945#Comment_3925945
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3925948#Comment_3925948
- Weskers behaves exactly the same way. Cd is longer than the m1 after
- Why would you go into the exit gates with victor on your head? This would be like going in there with pigs activated trap.
- Pinhead sadly cannot do this.
So no none of these are similar/even do that
Id have to test houndmaster though as I have never seen it happen, im guessing it behaves just like wesker though.
The reason the border at the end shows up for wesker is so he has something to slam you on and not bug out, probably the same story for the dog.Pinhead, Twins, and Houndmaster all can, but they aren't mobility killers.
I agree that Ghoul definitely shouldn't get the same treatment neither should Wesker.
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I doubt they have anything concrete to show. And talking about it will only lead to people creating all sorts of theories.
We will probably start getting information post FNAF-hype. I wouldn't expect anything for the next month or so.
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They say they will buff killers elsewhere but with how glacial balancing is in this game it's gonna' take at least 6+ months to see anything that will of course end up being hit or miss.
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This is such a non-issue and we already had a thread complaining about this.
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If you're good enough at Ghoul they won't even make it to opening the gates.
I guess its time for you to get better.
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@JPLongstreet said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3924435#Comment_3924435
I just don't see how showing this in the lobby couldn't lead to anything but their matchmaking being destroyed by all the backfills. Anyone going for any adept, not just David's, will be dodged into oblivion, as will those attempting challenges etc.
It's like passing along what we think is a problem onto other players while not caring about the consequences to others, and actively wreaking the matchmaking system too.
Well that's the crux of the issue isn't it? Survivors are balanced as if they are a team yet any individual can take builds that are actively detrimental to the goal of escaping, and BHVR continues to put perks like this in the game.
Let's take two Survivors who both queue for a solo queue match:
Survivor A - Runs meta perks, brings a strong item, plays efficiently, is altruistic, puts in effort to make a team escape possible.
Survivor B - Runs meme builds with no synergy, tries to annoy the killer the entire game (not in a useful way,) dies instantly every chase, spends minimal time on gens.
Nobody trying to win would ever want Survivor B on their team, there are a lot of factors that go into performance and obviously perks don't fully equate to skill or intent, but being able to see perks would allow people to consent to having someone like that on their team or not.
This would objectively lead to more lobby dodging, but let me ask you this:
Survivor B's choices are fully legal within the game itself, but are they respectful to the strangers on their team? Should people be able to queue in a PVP game while not caring about winning? Should you be forced to play with people who don't want to win?
It ultimately is BHVR's fault, there's no ranked mode in this game, the solution lies on BHVR as well to figure out, but I think people should try and grasp why someone would not want to play with a meme build.
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@Shot_thru_a_cannon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3916684#Comment_3916684
Ok, I'll bring Franklin's instead. Oh wait, that perk is "boring" too, right?
Yeah it is.
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@JPLongstreet said:
They know they'll have to change perks like No Mither now, or else the lobby shopping and dodging will become insane.
They probably will just remove the feature and call the testing a failure.
But while it lasts I will be happy to never play with totem builds/chest builds/screaming builds/key builds again.
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@LockerLurk said:
I have a list of all the Killers I have found that also are glitched to my knowledge, alongside other general glitches:
Ghostface: Glitched (Minor)- Reveal latency off, causing long "THX" style Reveal noise.
- Reveal mechanic seems bugged in that he's not being revealed when he really should be (not sensitive enough).
- Ghostface is sometimes at distance able to stalk through solid objects.
Dredge: Glitched (Game-Breaking)- Occasionally cannot see locked lockers while teleporting especially during Nightfall.
- Nightfall causing SERIOUS Survivor-sided frame drops and lag.
- Teleporting to a locker or doing anything with a locker may crash the game.
Dracula: Glitched (Major)
- Transforming to another form is extremely laggy.
- Teleporting to vaults as Bat can sometimes crash the game.
- Drac may freeze while transforming.
- Scratchmarks occasionally do not show up for Bat.
- Hellfire is seriously delayed and Hellfire collision is incorrect on short walls.
Pig: Glitched (Major)
- There appears to be a slight delay with setting Reverse Bear Traps and performing Ambushes.
- Pig can occasionally get stuck on objects if she hits them when she finishes her Ambush.
Oni: Glitched (Game-Breaking)
- Demon Dash is still having issues with flicking, this is an old glitch that wasn't fixed.
- M2 attacks may improperly be gaining the effects of certain perks.
- Demon Strike is STILL causing Oni to freeze and may crash the game if performed against collision objects.
Myers: Glitched (Minor)
- Myers can, like Ghostface, occasionally stalk through solid walls at distance.
- Tombstone Piece and Tombstone appear to rarely crash the game during Mori.
Nemesis: Glitched (Game-Breaking)
- Multiple cosmetic and in-game tentacle difficulties.
- NO attacks are acting as anything other than basic damage.
- Worse than usual zombie spawn logic.
- Chests appear to be bugged in that sometimes the Killer Instinct of vaccine use does not properly proc.
- Nemesis can long-press M1 attack, that is, lunge, while carrying a Survivor.
Xenomorph: Glitched (Major)
- M2 Tail attacks seem to "stop short" and glance off Survivors and objects incorrectly (Noticed by MrHeadache).
- Xenomorph tunnel spawn is a little wonky.
- Some tunnels can spawn in such a way as to freeze Xeno when they crawl out of them because the exit is blocked due to collision, a known ongoing glitch.
Sadako: Glitched (Major)
- Like with Xeno tunnels, Sadako TVs can spawn in a way that using them freezes the player.
Wraith: Glitched (Game-Breaking)
- Uncloaking can occasionally cause the game to crash.
Houndmaster: Glitched (Minor)
- Snug can occasionally get stuck on collision again, and may have bad pathing logic. It's possible Knight may have this issue too but I haven't checked, this is just what a Houndmaster Main friend of mine said they saw.
Huntress: Glitched (Major)
- Hatchets are occasionally hitting Survivors and giving the blood splash effect on screen without damaging them, as reported by others on these forums, regardless of range thrown.
Pinhead: Glitched (Major)
- It appears sometimes that the combo Iridescent Lament Configuration + Chatterer's Tooth is not highlighting/hiding the box like it should.
- Problematic Box Spawn logic.
It's very unlikely that these will be fixed soon because Pinhead is no longer in the game, technically. :(
All Killers:
- Hit detection is wonky on all attacks.
- Hooks sometimes spawn in ways that make them unusable.
- Killers with spawned objects have bad spawn logic.
- Some perks improperly activate on M2 attacks.
- Sometimes, M1 and M2 attacks are hitting but not causing any sort of damage to the Survivor, without the Survivor having an Endurance perk.
- Latency issues making "spinning" the Killer harder to avoid regardless of FOV setting.
All Survivors:
- Some Killer effects cause serious latency and framerate issues.
- Pallet stuns appear to be bugged in that they are refusing to work, or work and then cause the player to vault by mistake, often into the Killer.
- Vault logic feels badly off.
- Using lockers may crash the game.
- Orela's footsteps and breathing are too soft.
All players:- Problemetic cosmetic glitches with several characters, Yun-Jin, Yui, Orela, and Wraith all seem to have problems right now.
- Graphical errors from new shaders.
- Ping issues and server latency issues.
- Issues with spawn logic.
- Some maps are spawning broken tiles or extremely strong tiles meant for 2v8.
- Certain icons are badly glitched and show a broken texture image.
And this is just what I have noticed over the past day or two I have been able to play. It's really, really bad right now…
How many of these are new?
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Why would anyone play an M1 over Ghoul?
He's easier than both Wesker and Blight and equally as strong as the former, its a no brainer.
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Blame the people constantly asking for ugly 'unique' skins.
Orela's release cosmetics are good though, which is a nice change of pace.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3921653#Comment_3921653
So we shouldn't even try?
From what Ive observed here people don't even like that survivors don't have to watch the mori anymore. I don't think the survivor experience matters.
It just seems like the gameplan is to force survivors to stay in every match > Buff killers and continue nerfing maps > Successful and healthy game.
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I feel like adding a third David to the game would be a bigger dealbreaker than the actual IP.
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Go chase them out if you want to save time or go AFK if you're sensitive to BM.
The solutions are already there.
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He's like Wesker except a lot more boring to play against and unlike Wesker's prime all of the chase perks are hard nerfed so I'm not shocked people dislike playing against him.
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This is legit only effective against console players.
Any time this happens to my friend he just opens YouTube or goes to the bathroom. It's not nearly as inconvenient as you would believe.
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@Chilli_man2400 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3919755#Comment_3919755
honestly if I were to nerf him I would do these simple changes
- Breaking a pallet takes away 1 rush token. So like Ghoul you can’t just instantly dash
- Reduce the speed of rush from 230% to 200% OR make Blight 110% by default
- Slightly increase the cooldown when missing and when he injects himself
I think making it so he basically only can get hits with M2 sounds fair.
I don't think nerfing his rushes is the way since it does take skill but punishing for pallet breaking and missing is also fair.
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It was never intended to be a useful perk.
Just another meme perk that serves to help survivors lose the game like 80% of the survivor perk pool.
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Makes me almost want to become a killer main just so I don't have to interact with it.
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@Thusly_Boned said:
Lightborn is fine. Some people act like it totally negates some powerful and integral playstyle, but the reality is that flashlights kinda suck. They are the weakest survivor item, imo, and when playing killer I am happy to see them in the lobby.
Lightborn doesn't do anything that can't be 95% accomplished with positioning and a bit of situational awareness. Even when facing four flashlights and background player, I very rarely suffer a flashlight save. Like 99% of times I do get blinded is when breaking pallets, which is also fine, because it costs the surv distance.
On the rare occasion I do run it, it's not really to prevent being blinded, but to see how long I can hide that I am running it, and waste the surv's time (wasting survs' time is what flashlights do most effectively). But generally speaking Lightborn is closer to waste of a perk slot than something OP.
It's not OP or even strong at all, its exactly like you said and I agree.
The rare time someone decides to troll around and finally bring a flashlight instead of only toolboxes/medkits and the killer has Lightborn it just leads to never wanting to bring one again which is pretty crappy.
The takeaway isn't that Lightborn should be nerfed however, its that survivor items shouldn't be so worthless.
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@AdamTheAfro said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3917133#Comment_3917133
Then why are you complaining? You're not interacting with the killer???????????? W.T.F.!
Read my first post.
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@AdamTheAfro said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3916684#Comment_3916684
Oh boohoo. You want every killer perk nerfed to the ground so you can bully them to death. Nah, fam, I don't think so.
I don't use Flashlights.
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They're not going to change it for the same reason you can't see killer ping in pre-game lobby.
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It's a boring perk that encourages more time sitting on gens before the person getting tunneled dies.
I'm not sure why anyone should ever enjoy going against it. It doesn't change interactions it just removes them.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3915962#Comment_3915962
If Hatch Escapes do not count as a win for MMR, but do count as a win for Escape Rate, then the system is flawed. Either stop counting Hatch Escapes as an escape (win) or count them towards MMR. Not like it'll make the system worse.
Survivors ARE a team. I really don't care what anyone says. If you take three good players and one bad player, not an uncommon scenario, the Killer will focus out the bad player and it is up to the good players to stop them. That is a team game. You cannot win the game with three Survivors (and you are not meant to). BHVR cannot eat their cake and have it too. Survivors are forced to play as a team, despite differing goals and skill levels, if they want a chance to win but they are simultaneously NOT a team either.
Let's not forget they actively balance around survivors being a team of four, punish players for dc'ing/going next, and make powers/perks that require teammates.
Still makes no sense how they can do all of this but then leave perks like Left Behind and Sole Survivor in the game.
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My bad.
@Rokku_Rorru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3915944#Comment_3915944
I honestly think Skully would be a lot more tolerable with the new haste/hindered stacking changes, I'd love a PTB to see how she'd be to play against with some of her nerfs reverted, because I do like the red light green light when it isn't just lol u r slow as turtle vs a f1 car.
The last few I played against felt fine tbh, but they waited too long to put her in that state.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3915940#Comment_3915940
Not that I condone making balance changes purely based on stats, but to be fair, the Twins have always been very strong. Their problem has always been that they barely function- when they do function and when you put the time in, they're nasty as hell.
Twins are probably right behind Skerchant in the least fun to play against category.
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Your name + the loadout + the killer choice.
You should probably watch players better than you in high mmr so you can learn more since you're struggling.
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@HeroLives said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3915174#Comment_3915174
what would you do with it? Because buff it and going in that direction just incentivizes slugging.
Remove them.
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@HeroLives said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3915113#Comment_3915113
yeah I would not like to go back to bully killers with another sabo meta, I think sabo is in a decent spot where if determined survivors can MAYBE get the wiggle off but it’s not guaranteed and is risky. This was a terrible idea back in the day and it would be a terrible idea now to buff sabo. All survivors did was use it over grief killers, and it will lead to more aggressive slugging. This would be horrible for the majority of survivors bc swf have and would if reinstated absolutely abuse it, and it’s really only something that swf can pull off the majority of the time. I’ve been on a team that would do that, and let me tell you there really was nothing the killer could do back then. So while fun for survivor it made killers absolutely miserable. That type of gameplay should just stay a relic of the past.
- friendly neighborhood survivor main.
Aka there's yet another subset of perks for survivor that's literally useless and only serves as a bait for ignorant players to troll their team, alongside totem builds, chest builds, and aura builds.
Awesome design.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3914674#Comment_3914674
I think this is really well thought-out and well written.
When nearly every killer on the roster has anti-loop at this point, your success is heavily determined by RNG. That's ridiculous in a PVP game. Did I get a few tiles that connect to buy me time? Is there a massive dead zone with no pallets that covers 25% of the map? Are there a ton of tiles rendered unsafe by bloodlust 1? Are my teammates doing anything? The list goes on. Your individual skill is like the 5th or 6th most impactful thing in a solo queue trial. Again, this is a PVP game.
You also touched on pre-determined outcomes before the trial even begins. This absolutely has to stop. A lot of the going next stems from players determining that the game isn't worth their time to play. They're never going to be able to eliminate that behavior, but they need to understand that a lot of it comes from matchmaking that doesn't respect the player's time. The devs keep thinking of this as an asymmetrical survival horror game while the veteran playerbase thinks of it as a PVP game. They have to come to grips with the fact that a lot of players don't see this game as an asymm that should be lopsided anymore.
Not to mention everyone gets mad that people who go next are 'ruining' the experience but don't acknowledge the fact that the devs willingly put in perks and items that incentivize ratting and not doing gens for a solo escape.
This is one of the only games I know of where the devs balance around teamwork but you're allowed to have a loadout and playstyle that involves never helping your team once.
Solo-queue will never improve as long as people can just do three chests with their chest builds while someone is being chased and another is on a hook. Probably the biggest reason why my 'friend' goes next on hook often.
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@Hex_Ignored said:
Because a good chunk of trials was already decided in the lobby before the actual trial even began.
I feel like its being willingly obtuse at this point.
There really is no mystery as to why people go next.
I still think the abandon feature was the best survivor change the game has added, especially for those who play in SWFs. Saves so much time.
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Her design is problematic because she has so many gimmicks baked into one character:
-Condemn
-Teleporting
-Manifest
None of these can be particularly strong because the addition of the other two will make her too oppressive, but all three are core to her identity as a character so they can't exactly remove any of them either.
I believe this is why BHVR is so reluctant to touch her kit again, I feel like she's just one of those characters that will have to remain as a weaker killer.
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@Shroompy said:
yeah... this event hasnt been the greatest unfortunately.
at least the cosmetics look cool
I just wish the Vittorio outfit wasn't timegated.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3913122#Comment_3913122
I'm not saying killers should just "win" these outcomes, i'm saying they should stand a chance. Killers only win at high mmr because they play nurse, or because they engage in stacking 4 slowdown perks and/or unfun playstyles that are not fun for the survivors to play against.
Unfun playstyles btw, that i don't think should exist. I don't think it should be expected that you just hard tunnel out the non-obsession (less likely to have DS) because the game is balanced around this unfun strategy.
And survivors only win in high-mmr because of the same thing, but perk-wise. Where are the survivors winning or even standing a chance while using chest-builds or perkless?
In PVP games there will never be a META that's fun for your opponents, this is seen in League/Dota/Rivals/Overwatch etc.
Because efficiency in PVP games means letting your opponent have as little a chance to act as possible.
I disagree with them removing playstyles from the game and would much rather basekit buffs to alleviate the pain of playing against meta tactics, which is exactly why I agree with basekit BT being added and am not opposed to giving killers basekit perks either.
I just don't believe now is a good time because the game seems fine for killers to me, it would probably be more appropriate once basekit tunnel protections are added as this will be a giant nerf to the meta killer stratagem.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3913108#Comment_3913108
It has nothing to do with comp.
If we had a pretend competition, where we took the highest MMR player on each killer, and pit them against the 4 highest MMR survivors in the game, the outcome would be that MAYBE nurse gets a 50% win rate.
And in regards to "perks" and "meme builds". In comp there is a REASON that survivor perks are HEAVILY restricted such that they CAN'T bring all the best perks. And look at what happens in comp? They still win.
You still have yet to give a reason why you think killers should win these outcomes, but not survivors. Also you're going to have to link comp games where this takes place because in the comp matches I've watching (which is little,) the survivors are still picking relatively strong/cohesive perk setups even if they couldn't take the meta.
Killers are still winning in high-mmr and even the kill-rate in this MMR is healthy to my knowledge, just like I told the other poster, expecting BHVR to take the extremely complex balancing route to change high-level without overdoing it and without affecting the low level is wishful thinking, you've proposed your ideas in past discussions but I still maintain my disagreement with their implementation.
I feel like its far more practical for them to cut their losses and approach game balance practically, which is what they have been doing to my knowledge.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3913092#Comment_3913092
But its precisely the point that at the highest levels of play only nurse and MAYBE blight is actually consistently viable.
If you took the best killer player in the world for each killer, and pit them against the best survivor team in the world and played 10 matches. How many of those killers do you think would actually get a 50% win rate? Assuming we removed RNG by just having them all play on the same map that is statistically a 50% winrate for example?
Probably only the nurse would do that.
If you're referring to comp, I don't know what the dev vision is regarding competitive DBD so I can't comment on it, but there are plenty of rules that creative killer diversity, artificial or otherwise.
Referring to highest queue-able MMR, again, its not really different than being unable to use any of the multitudes of trash perks and playstyles on the survivor side, if survivors were win-streaking perkless I'd be more sympathetic, but they're not even win-streaking with off-meta builds.
And you'd still have to gather stats that show non-meta killers are loss-streaking in the cited MMR levels, if they're not, what's the problem?
@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3913092#Comment_3913092
Oh of course its not exclusive to the killer side, but being bound by the disconnect penalty is. While I personally think neither side should have a way to get out of matches without penalty, killers can't go next (either on purpose or by accident) so they have to play out every single game like this down to the last moment. I never see go next defenders advocating for parity in that regard, so its worth reiterating.
There's a difference between difficult games and unwinnable games. And yes, you can win an unwinnable game. In this instance I'm using unwinnable to define a game where you can do everything right and still lose, because the match is stacked beyond your favor. Both sides can and do occasionally have unwinnable games, but the biggest difference is that on survivor side it often has to do with sharing the agency of your teammates, while as killer it generally means time efficiency is very far in the survivors' favor. You can win games where either of those elements are against you, but they are not fun games win or lose. Especially knowing its not as much that you won as it was that they lost.
If you disagree that frustrations should not be a balance worthy consideration for killers, please remember that if you ever feel they're worthy of consideration for survivors. Not saying whether you do or don't, but keep it in mind as a mindfulness approach. Frustration is quite possibly the biggest catalyst of almost any balance discussion on these forums, moreso than actual balancing.
The reason why there's such push-back against killers getting basekit buffs (even though I'd be fine with basekit corrupt) is because killer is the power role and is already dominant at all levels of play until it tapers off into 'sometimes you might have a really hard game but still win most of your matches' territory in high-mmr as low-above average MMR is a slaughterfest.Why can't we make balance adjustments that help killers more at high level and help survivors more at lower level? That should always be the ideal.
The unsatisfying answer is that if a killer DC's, the entire match ends. Its an asymmetrical game at the end of the day. We are already getting go-next prevention soon-ish, so I'll reserve my thoughts on the topic for that point in time because it will most likely change a lot. I will say that adding killer bots would give them leeway to let killer's leave more often, but it'd be a lot of work and I'd imagine they'd rather just put a stop to chronic hookcide instead.
Time efficiency is survivor biased if they are a SWF and if said SWF is competitive, how often is this the case? If games against competitive SWFs can be won and are rare, is there truly an issue? If the problem is that killers are losing these games despite playing 'perfectly,' one side has to lose the immovable object vs unstoppable force situation, why should it be the survivors?
I also don't agree with the idea that you should be able to play an off-meta killer with an off-meta build and win consistently against comp-swfs running meta, as well as the fact that survivors who are inefficient with crappy builds shouldn't be able to consistently win against comp Blights/Nurses (which they don't.) The only exception to this being a massive skill-gap.
As annoying as Eruption was, survivors still had strong tools to use too and it would've been a lot better (imo) if BHVR added ways to communicate things like gen-perks or chases instead of just gutting Eruption, so I'm not opposed to preserving the strength of something frustrating by indirectly nerfing it with QoL that alleviates said frustration. A perfectly example would be adding basekit weaker corrupt without nerfing gen speeds again.
Regarding your last point, BHVR can put in said changes, but is it worth it the cost/effort? Nothing I've seen is convincing enough for me to believe killers are truly fighting tooth and nail in high-level MMR, all I've seen is evidence that high-mmr is the only place where they have to play against opponents of equal or greater skill instead, which like I said in my first response, should be expected if you're playing at that level.
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3913085#Comment_3913085
Thats not what he meant by the BT comparison, at least not how I took it. He was talking about how you were throwing if you didn't take BT at the time, which was generally considered the case. That same type of necessity has been felt with gen perks more than once in DBD's history, especially specific combos with specific killers (corrupt being the big example for setup or poor map presence killers.) He had 3 hooks by the time the gens were powered, and his win was solely from getting aura reads on how greedy the survivors were being. It wasn't his game to win, it was their game to lose, and if he didn't play it the way he did it could have easily been a 3E. There's a specific type of frustration that causes with games, and experiencing it frequently takes a massive mental toll (see: all justifications ever given regarding going next) beyond what the game "should" be. He even touched on wanting to give up and get out of the game but then he kept with it because he was forced to. That type of frustration is felt by both sides, but for some reason there never seems to be any empathy across the isle for either side.
Did I miss something regarding that possibility statement though? The fact he won a game like this is proof that there's always possibility, the point was more about the helplessness and frustration than the number of kills. RPD library whack a mole wasn't ok even though it almost always ended in a 4k.
I don't think that's exclusive to killer-side though, to the point where I don't see why additional balancing is needed (especially not another survivor nerf.) Killers just feel it more often than survivors because hitting high MMR is way easier on killer, and that's the price you pay for SBMM.
In a good MMR system, every game should be a struggle and should be tiring. You should not expect to just chain matches back to back in high MMR without breaking a sweat or it's not functioning as intended. The emotional response to playing a hard match is understandable, but I disagree that BHVR should change the game to accommodate it.
Playing at a high-level will always include sacrificing fun for efficiency which I believe is Pulsar's point. Looking at the survivor builds of the match, everything there is the equivalent to running four slowdowns. Just like killer, I'd wager > 60% of survivor perks are a throw.
The reason why there's such push-back against killers getting basekit buffs (even though I'd be fine with basekit corrupt) is because killer is the power role and is already dominant at all levels of play until it tapers off into 'sometimes you might have a really hard game but still win most of your matches' territory in high-mmr as low-above average MMR is a slaughterfest.