cogsturning
cogsturning
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OK yeah this is pretty great
Is this every lobby, every time?
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If they made this so everyone interacted in some way and the killer could defend or help their own survivors it would be a dream come true. I get to smash one group of survivors while mother henning over another. My evil side and my kind side can finally work in tandem.
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Actual picture of me dodging a soloq default Meg with 200 hours.
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Sickness can also get applied to Gens, Pallets, Exit Gates etc. AND Survivors can spread it across the whole team
Kinda answered your own question here. They're two different killers with two different kits that do different things. Heresy should be skill-based because it allows you to both never hook and do a mini mori. Like @dangersmymidd1ename mentioned, Henry can't just get World Breaker by dropping vines under a hooked survivor. His ranged attack requires you to actually do something to be rewarded, like Judgment, and those rewards are too big to be free. When Plague doesn't have her power (which survivors can deny) she's just an M1 killer.
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I'm pretty sure that's why it's survivor-sided. The players are so bad and they can very well go up against a 10k hour duo. There's just too long of a wait for proper matchmaking tho.
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So what do you suggest to allow survivors who get tunneled out in 3 mins to be able to play a 10 minute match too? Or teams that get wiped out without a single gen done? Because I'm curious why it's only the killer deserving a full match and a strong winning advantage without ever having to even use any macro sense in your pitch. They can just not worry about the gens getting done and still win, yet i guess survivors can still get sent back to the lobby with 6k points when hard tunneled.
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I haven't had any consistency yet in either role. I'm still getting a lot of babies and both my ER and KR are about 20 points above the 60/40 goal for the 30-day period and it just keeps climbing. I start to think it's leveling off when I get a good killer or a strong team and then I get the babies again.
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@Nazzzak said:
The fact that boons are becoming meta of all things is kind of sad tbh
Dark days indeed
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Every boon along with the set up would need a massive buff to justify this. They are already mostly garbage.
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I have little patience for set-up and have lit maybe two boons ever so I can't comment from the survivor side but I've had at least one Shadowstep in almost every one of my killer matches lately and it's driving me crazy. I've always thought it was kinda slept on because a well placed boon on certain maps is a massive nuisance to deal with if it keeps getting relit. Last match I had last night should have been quick. I had two people dead with only one gen done, but this match ended up being 17 minutes long because someone was just walking the map relighting their boon and I couldn't track them.
I currently run stealth as survivior and if my preferred perks ever get nerfed I'll likely switch to Shadowstep myself.
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@BestStateSinceEver said:
Anybody who calls this game survivor sided in today's meta should post their match history and stats on killer. Just a quick screenshot. Like you did.
Even in the evening hours of NA regions, the killer queues are instant, sure, but survivor queues are not more than a minute at most. In the morning hours, we still have long killer queues. If this game was truly survivor sided, then there would be more survivors.
I often ask people for their KRs when they cite Nightlight stats. I've yet to get any of those numbers, and the conversation generally ends there. Funny how that is.
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I'm hoping it's a bug.
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@Mortimer said:
This game hasn't been Surv-sided for years at this point. That's’s not even an opinion; it’s a well-established fact, backed up by official statistics.
Anyone who refuses to face reality is merely exposing their skill issue, or is simply stuck in 2018 and keeps parroting the same old lines in an attempt to justify their bad games.
It's not neccessarily a skill issue. There are people in the forum with low hours who constantly cry about the upper MMR bracket they're probably not even in. Those ones are a skill issue. But the other half is high hour killer mains with 80%+ KRs who constantly say the game is survivor-sided. Those are just being disingenuous.
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@MashedBroccoli said:
Jason is mid b tier atleast high b at most. I haven’t lost too a single jason in weeks.
Just from yesterday alone
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/JS5NOD1JVI0W/img-5481.jpeg
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/TMTX1LRUW8Z8/img-5482.jpeg
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/SGZ6Z1HIRO52/img-5483.jpeg
he isn’t even close to op.I don't know if the MMR reset period is the best time to make this argument. I have also stomped the hell out of baby Jasons in recent matches. He's not a good intro killer and it's a popular franchise, so there will inevitably be weak Jasons.
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@Piruluk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4114336#Comment_4114336
Ultimately, now killer is the casual role if you like to win a lot.
Survivor is the hardcore role, where you expected to lose most of the time.
Which is why I play more killer than survivor nowadays. Why sign up to be someone else's ego trip when I can do the ego tripping myself? People just refuse to accept the role is eatting good right now. That's my issue.
@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4114336#Comment_4114336
That's a good a point and an evergreen thing. 'Broken' perks gets blamed for survivors being too strong, sometimes those perks are annihilated, and the talking point doesn't change.
To contrast that with killers, no one disagrees that Skull Merchant is down in the basement. If a killer gets nerfed, survivors don't seem to dispute that quite as much.
Yeah like we've had strong killer after strong killer released so what is the source of the "survivor is strong right now" talking point certain player repeat over and over? It can't be the 15s BT anymore. It can't be SB and Vigil. Will they stop saying it if WoO gets nerfed? Resurgence? 5s BT? Longer gens? Slower gate opening? Or do these people think survivor is still super strong as long as a SWF of four perkless comp players can beat an average killer? It feels like if it's still possible for any survivor team to win in any situation then that means the role is strong.
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I like that no matter how many nerfs survivor gets the game will eternally be survivor-sided to some people. Multiple survivor meta perks got the hammer and the 5s BT cut has made tunneling go back to being super easy. They could make it so survivors can only walk for 10s after getting off a gen and this crew will just be like, "You just have to prewalk to a pallet skill issue" while continuing to cite an invisible number they make assumptions about as defense.
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I've never had such a long string of 4ks at 4 or 5 gens as killer or soloq 4outs as survivor before. It's been really eye opening. I'd forgotten what low hour playing was like. About a week in and it's starting to level out a little. Killers are getting harder but the survivors are still a mixed bag (more than usual), and I'm winning almost all my killer matches.
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Henry is my main. Very much A tier.
I guess I mostly play As. Dracula, Plague, and Wesker are my other top most played.
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@random1543 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113698#Comment_4113698
Sad thing is you wont see improvments if you still have people dodging every lobby because dodging has been confirmed by devs to throw out matchmaking and creates unbalanced matches. Even when people settle in brackets, if people are dodging every lobby it wont matter.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113665#Comment_4113665
I would be fine with this ! I am just utterly sick of 99% of my lobbies having people dodging them. Annon worked for a bit but now it just seems like everyone dodges over the tineiest incovenices.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113705#Comment_4113705
The issue with doing it this way is that you are basically rewarding bad behaviour that is lobby dodging,
I find it simular to arugment of why have a dc pently, would rather them leave and get a bot then have them not want to play.
I dont mind if dodgers are mad. They need to find a new game to play honestly if they need to be repeatedly filtering out of lobbies.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113607#Comment_4113607
Trying to make this us vs them is goofy as heck, I think killer dodging is worse, but both sides doing it at bad.
it dont matter how long the pre game lobby is people can still dodge it if they are not penalized for doing it repeatedly.
The solution to this problem is just backfilling from the right bracket. Then people don't feel like a choice has been taken away. But I'd venture to say a primary reason for dodging in the first place is seeing how drastically different someone else's hours are. In that case, the lobby was already bad. They could (and should) just make user name invisible until the end screen. There's no good reason for that info to be available.
And I mean, yeah, I'd rather have a bot than a teammate who runs up to the killer to die. Both are bad but one is worse. I'm also pretty tired of being merciful as killer because of that behavior. I don't want anymore throwing than we already have, but I also don't want penalties for every single thing in what's supposedly a casual game.
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@Hoopme said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113476#Comment_4113476
Tbf the mmr was reset and now everything is just skewed like my teammates don't even understand what a pallet is I think launching a new chapter plus resetting me in the same instance was a bad idea
I've also wondered why they chose a killer release to do this, and a complicated killer at that. MMR reset should have been a midchapter.
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The way I see it, locking lobbies or adding yet another penalty will just lead to more DCing or throwing when a 4k hour survivor gets paired with a 300 hour one that goes down 20s into the match. I'd rather people shop in the lobby rather than be mad in the match.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113519#Comment_4113519
It reminds me of the line I was once heard - many killers think they are so good at the game that they'll only believe its balanced when they go 50/50 with the best team in the world.
It's worth a whole scientific study on what this role does to people's egos.
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Plenty. I played eight survivor matches last session and three were Judgment. Utterly miserable solo matches against good players too.
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I'd be happy if it didn't at least feel like punishment to get p100s. The only way I can play my main survivor comfortably is to have teammates bring things I want and don't have.
I've gone through phases with commodious toolboxes with preferred add-ons and ran out of those. Then I switched to the better medkits with good add-ons and ran out of those. Then it was the keys and ran out of those. It's so bad I try to find the items I like in 2v8 and escape with them so I can have them for 1v4. I also ran out of Vigo's blueprints, BPS, escape cakes, and bound envelopes. Obviously you can just switch to another survivor (which I have) but I like my main and that's who I want to play, and I've probably dumped a whole second p100 worth of BP into him.
My main killer is out of what we're my two preferred add-ons. Eventually I'll run out of the two I'm running now. The only way to combat this is dumping more BP into the pit while feeling like you gained nothing, especially since the web seems to go out of it's way to give you what you don't want.
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@Elan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113252#Comment_4113252
If you are good killer, you should win every game. That's how the game should work. The only issue I have even as killer main is that you can now bodyblock stairs from basement and with shorter bt you can easily confirm a kill.
What an absurd statement. This role bias mentality is what taints the feedback and ruins the game. If you're good at killer you should be put with good survivors and both sides should be able to win. Why would anyone become good at survivor and play the role if they're destined to Iose against a killer that put in the same amount of time and effort?
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@Wraff said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113440#Comment_4113440
The match making is worthless. Especially right now since they reset it. This is a well known fact
Using 1 week of a reset as an example isn't the best argument. The whole point of the reset is to improve the system. The regular matchmaking isn't consistent, sure, but 2v8 is significantly worse. You're almost guaranteed to get multiple people who hide all match in that mode. That's probably why it's also only 8 gens instead of 10. They have to account for the useless players that might be doing nothing against 5k hour duo killers.
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2v8 has no matchmaking as far as I can tell. Throwing trolls and low hour players are put with good ones. It needs a system like that to make up for how uneven it is. It's also super casual. In 1v4, proper matchmaking should be doing the work.
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@T1MEXII said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113410#Comment_4113410
Yeah people can do it in solo but there is a difference in the fact that in a SWF there are 4 strong sabo toolboxes, + 4 unbreakables. The problem is the coordination. A good SWF pressures gens, a great SWF priorites friends. Now I do agree having a sabo solo would punish and be dreadful as a solo survivor. In a SWF it is insanely strong.
I disagree. There's no greater boon for me as killer than sabo teams. A smart team does the right gens at the right time. They 99 unimportant gens and wait for a key central gen to pop. They take chase at the right times based on hook states. They call out killer movement so teammates can prerun. Teams that are swarming around for saves end up injured and out of position, and if you know people are in a party you can often exploit their predictable altruism. I personally love these matches. Not only are they engaging but I almost always win.
Killers complain about "genrushing" but when surviviors engage with the killer instead they complain about that too. It feels more to me that people just don't like it when they get outplayed and they want something to blame for it. It's sabos, it's genrushing, it's SWF. Or maybe you just did badly?
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@HexFelix said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113405#Comment_4113405
And again no arguments against my main points on SP. And crunching on aura, I still got 2 kills because I they had good survivors. Using aura builds instead of 4 gen slowdowns what you normally need against good teams (I know you don’t face them like I do) isn’t crunching on perks. But you exposed yourself with the ghoul sentence. It’s not topic of this post but ghoul takes more skill than you think, first hit is easy but cut off are precise. And only entitled survivors call ghoul a skill less amend easy. Calling killer crunching on auras (while there are better options) while survivors crutch on the same 5 perks I see every game is truely the opinion of someone who plays 10 seconds a day. But playing so much Dbd and being unaware of any of this, I feel sorry for you.
Ok
I'm so bad and play so little killer that I've essentially won all my matches these last 30 days. You referred to yourself as a casual player in another post and that's pretty apparent. Ghoul is hated by killers too. He's one of the worst things that's happened to this game. Some people actually want skill expression, not free injures and on-demand mobility. If you advocate for killers like that than you're part of the reason survivors need strong perks. Ghoul is why we're on the path we're on.
People on both sides crutch but I'm not saying killers in general crutch, I'm saying you are crutching if you have one match where a survivor perk actually does something and you're complaining about it. Perks are supposed to be useful. SP can be very healthy. An Elusive surv can get the unhook and now both are Eluisve, so they waste a hook-returners time by disappearing. It's the Distortion argument all over again. People running SP are getting unhooks, doing gens, and healing. They're just making themsleves less visible for brief and random intervals.
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@T1MEXII said:
I know as a solo survivor it must be annoying and seem unbalanced and unfair but you have to understand what is possible as survivor. Everyone knows solo survivor is the hardest role, especially with bad randoms. We have all been there.
If you choose to play in a swf (Survive With Friends) then at first glance it might not seem like a problem, sounds em fun and probably is to you. Being on a mic and doing silly things looks fun, I have also watched hours of dbd content and I really enjoy the stupid stuff you can do.
Sadly that is only one side, the other is using perks to bully the killer. Even that is not the worst part, bully squads don't sometimes complete the generators so in a tiny way it could be beneficial.
The fowl perks and items that survivors can use to generally make this game unplayable is why swf are hated among the killer community. Using strong toolboxes to make it impossible for killer to hook, especially when the killer deserves the hook from playing well. Using perks like Power Struggle to make it impossible for killers to pick up from a pallet. These are the survivors that killers go against and is the reason why killers do not take any chances.
Dbd might seem like a party game for survivors and it probably is with all the fun stuff you can do, sadly it is not the same for killer. One game a chill team and the next is a fully meta (Powerful perks) swf. Killers simply can't take a chance, until 2v8 killers have not had anyone to play with so it always been playing to win because who doesn't want to see how far they could go.
One more thing to consider before hating the way killers play, in a 4 man swf it is basically 16 perks vs 4 perks. I'm not going to complain but it can seem a little unfair so killers need to do all they can to win.
I know it is unfair, as a solo survivor player I have been tunneled out by a killer at 5 gens. It is miserable and you'll complain but go against one of those squads I mentioned and you see the difference.
Using strong toolboxes to make it impossible for killer to hook, especially when the killer deserves the hook from playing well. Using perks like
Power Struggleto make it impossible for killers to pick up from a pallet.What does this have to do with SWF? People do all of this in solo. A good SWF pressures gens, this sabo nonesense is the type of player you dread getting in solo.
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@HexFelix said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113393#Comment_4113393
Like always not going on my points, not thinking on my explanation why the perk design is unhealthy and promotes bad playstyles and only counters healthy perks like bbq. Mindbreaker doesn’t counter Self-Preservation and infectious only works, on downing another survivor wich encourages slugging and I already explained whispers. And your experience isn’t mine, in my cases like my ghoul game this single perk shuttled down my entire build.
Well have fun playing against clueless solo q survivors all day while having a survivor sided mindset and getting destroyed on YouTube by a „Clown“.You said it countered Friends, not your whole build. And if your whole build is countered by a single perk maybe you shouldn't have such a single-minded build. And it only counters Friends until the obsession changes. It's not unhealthy for stealth to exist. What is unhealthy is that killers are hard crutching on an endless amount of aura perks and add-ons and can't cope if they get out stealthed. Sorry you couldn't just mindlessly fling yourself across with the most skill-less killer every time you saw yellow for one match. You called this other person a 10 hour player but if you're crutching this hard on your perks and can't function without them it sounds like you're the one that's weak at macro.
But yeah, I play 100-300 killer matches a month and win most of them but it's all clueless soloqers cause that's totally how matchmaking works.
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@iloveandhatethisgame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4112863#Comment_4112863
they are gonna get nerfed soon. Just wait for the inevitable content creators complaints
I don't know how they could nerf Drama but Lithe is quite likely. Unfortunately these outcry-based nerfs never satisfy anyone. They just shift their focus to a new target.
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@HexFelix said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113383#Comment_4113383
- Going in a locker for a few seconds does waste a few seconds and doesn’t give you aura immunity, no scratch marks and no blood for 30 s for doing absolutely nothing. And if bbq shows you that everyone is around then you actually have no reason to go far away from the hook.
2. Just like I said as killer you can’t afford to run specific perks to counter a singular survivor perks, like whispers and whispers doesn’t give you the exact position. And just because it doesn’t give you trouble doesn’t mean it’s ok. I could simple say I rarely saw old Sprintburst or vigil so it was fine before the nerf wich I know it wasn’t. I already named enough situations, experience and arguments why I think this is an unhealthy perk.
And for you in my other post you only had survivor sided opinions despite saying you play killer, wich i don’t believe when you say killers deserve a 30 s stun after hitting a surv on hook. Even on a YouTube channel I watch where he goes over Dbd forum posts the Stuber calls your comments wrong and that you are a not a killer player for what you said. Don’t take it personally but i won’t respond to your arguments since when I always try the only argument is a „but this“ or „lightborn is unfair“.
So they waste a few seconds getting into a locker then they just get back on their gen. The scratch marks don't matter much if you're just blindy following aura because you aren't going to their gen anyway. They'll sit there in peace either way.
No one is running things to counter a single perk. They run things that counter multiple perks. Mindbreaker, Infectious, Whispers. You can counter a bunch of perks at once with perks like that. SP isn't strong enough or popular enough to even consider bringing a perk just to counter it. You can also run one of a zillion other aura perks that don't just proc after hooks.
Did I say I didn't see this perk? I do see it. It's just not that big of an issue if you have some gamesense, as well as eyes and ears. SB and Vigil were an issue.
Ah that's hilarious you're listening to that biased clickbaity clown. I think that tells me all I need to know. I play killer every day, probably far more than you, but believe what's convenient for you.
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If I don’t see auras from bbq on a hook that must mean all survivors are nearby and I have to stay closer to the hook right?
Or in a locker? Because it's a very easy perk to figure out a killer has, and has a counter that people with 100 hours will know. SP just has the survivor skipping the locker if you don't want to be seen on your gen.
In general I hate the idea of elusive (elusive on unhook is fine though). Aura perks just show killer directions to go and counter stealthy survivors, but if we get more and more elusive perks, killer won’t pick aura perks because of that and bring more gen slowdown.
It's not like there's only two choices in perks, aura and anti-gen. Whispers counters SP and is an info perk. So does Infectious. SP also only works on post-hook aura. I generally run two aura and one aura add-on and though I see this perk often enough it rarely gives me trouble. And when I do find someone with no scratch marks after a hook (with my eyes) I immediately recognize the perk and keep it in mind. Just like decent survivors are expected to identify and counter certain killer perks, killers need to do the same. You can't just expect your perks to do all the work for you.
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I want to know this too, since if that's the case, the reset was pointless.
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Hard to say because I've seen it much less. Lithe and Dramaturgy have been making more appearances in my killer matches instead.
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Also I would like to add that Wiggling is still bugged.
I've had this happen to me several times, where I think the person just isn't wiggling and they suddenly break free. Super annoying.
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@Dipper said:
Am I dumb, where does the perk state "permanent progress"?
Permanent progress was the vote that won. The devs just went ahead and overrode it. This post is from before that happened, when an early version of the perk was basically laughed out of existence for essentially being a killer perk.
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The store is rather barren, though the last year has been a bit better. I keep hoping they'll make more of their art available as prints. I bought the print from the last Haunted by a Daylight and would absolutely get more. They have such good art. There's nothing for them to lose if it's print on demand too.
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I've had maybe 10 Judgments. That's a decent amount for a tricky, non-licensed killer. It's more than I had of Krasue.
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Though I have mixed feelings about this killer, I personally don't love running around rocks the same way against everyone. Something different is fine.
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@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4112585#Comment_4112585
Yeah I think currently that's how it works, and often why people who use certain playstyles quickly end up against opponents who can handle them better. Just curious as to whether the new changes now mean the opposite
My concern with the old system was abandons, and Peanits was gone by that time so we never really got any info. I assume bots are empty shells, so if the MMR wasn't calculated until the end, based on outcome, did you gain no MMR by slugging full teams. And since these matches just get deleted on survivor stats, did they keep theirs? At least this new way is calculating throughout the match (I guess?) so it stands a chance to be better.
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@LeFennecFox said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4112585#Comment_4112585
They can skyrocket your mmr all they want but the soft cap is so low it won't matter. The skill difference between actual cap and soft is massive so matches will just be mixed. It practically only exists to keep just freshed installed players out of the pool and if queue times are bad enough well they get in anyways.
It makes at least some difference, even if brackets are big and matching is loose. I was sweating for my life for months. I struggled in many of my matches. Killer was a constant fight against good players and survivor was mostly hatch games. My killer matches since the reset have been such steamrolls I'm actually surprised when more than 1 or 2 gens get done, and I've had more back to back 4 outs than I can ever recall with survivor. These aren't the people I was put with before.
I didn't really think there was much matchmaking until this reset, but this free for all is apples and oranges to what I'd been experiencing before.
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@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4112491#Comment_4112491
Peanits once said that how much MMR you can gain is a thing. Would it be accurate to assume that kills via slugging may not net someone as much gain as if they 12 hooked everyone instead?
It should do the opposite honestly. You should gain more MMR points because of certain playstyles. Same with hard tunneling. I've done my fair share of full team slugging when everyone was injured, out of position, and easy to nab. This should raise my MMR even more because I'm not approaching the game casually in these cases. Sweaty tactics should make you sky rocket.
But I do fear it's the opposite if they're going on your ability to spread hooks. If that's the case, the wincon should also be changed to hook amounts.
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I've always been against it and I'd permamute everyone day one if it ever happened. I'm not listening to strangers tell me what to do. I'm not listening to their fans blowing in their face. I'm not listening to them eat. I'm not listening to their kids scream. And yeah, I'm not getting called slurs. I've done my time in those kind of games. I like that dbd doesn't have that.
I also don't think it bridges any gaps. People playing together are more team orientated becuase they know one another, not because they can talk. Talking won't make strangers care about one another.
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If someone wants to keep their MMR lower that it should be it used to be killers could get 8 hooks and giver the survivors a sporting round… but what do they do now? Play a li bit and AFK?
This right here is probably why they don't go into detail about it. You're supposed to play normal and land in the appropriate lobbies. You're not supposed to alter your actions to manulipulate the system and end up in a lower bracket than your ability belongs in.
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It has to be three crouches in quick duration, if I recall from the ptb. They can just do two or space them out, or emote cancel spam, and it won't trigger.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4112038#Comment_4112038
Elusive doesn't make you 'unfindable' though.
Sure, you can be seen, but no scratch marks, no blood pools, no pain noises, and no aura means you can just stay out of view. Run aura like Alert or Empathy with that free of a thing and you could avoid the killer constantly while also doing nothing useful for your team.
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@esarraf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4112028#Comment_4112028
Anyone who plays like that are already doing nothing in lockers so that's already a moot point. But sure, how about like two minutes then.
Why would you need it for two minutes though? And why would you be doing nothing for two minutes? 20s would be soild, especially since it lasts even through a hit. It's meant to be a protection, not for you to be unfindable until you decide to be so.
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@esarraf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4112014#Comment_4112014
Hot take but elusive should just last until you preform a conspicuous action.
This will lead to do-nothing rats with permastealth.