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@michaelmyers87 said:
So how about the killer also knows where the hatch is and he has 1 down cpapabikity
I don't think this idea has any chance of being balanced, personally.
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@deathsia said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/342499#Comment_342499
Because people like you ensure the devs won't listen to a damned word us players with actual brains on our shoulders say. Survivor main players like you(the ones who will throw a tantrum the moment their OP status is threatened) make up 95% of the playerbase. If the devs listened to the 5% of us who know how to properly balance this game, they'd go bankrupt since you guys would boycott and basically kill the game.
Oh but by all means deny it and/or say I'm actually apart of that 95%...PLEASE DO... I'm expecting it. ;) Because that's all you're good for, whining and throwing a tantrum when things look like they won't go in your favor.
I would not trust you to be able to properly balance the game if you didn't realize that your suggestion of making asleep Survivors unable to cross the gates had the potential to make it so it would be impossible to escape.
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For me (as a PS4 player):
Amanda
Doctor
Clown
Myers
Hag
Spirit
Leatherface
Freddy
Huntress
Trapper
Hillbilly
Wraith
Legion
Nurse
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QoL = Quality of Life
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@MinusTheBillie said:
Agreed, leave his base power the same, just don't allow survivors the leave the exit gate unless they are awake (blocked by entity) and don't allow gen repair or healing during dream transition.
If thats not enough (which I think it might be) increase his speed or/and action speed for every survivor in the dream world, 2 or more. Would make the dream world scarier and incentivize chasing down multiples instead of camping...
Maybe even giving Exposed to all when all 4 are in dream world and not downed, giving just one 1-hit down for pulling that off.
If Survivors could not escape through the gates while asleep, then you create the possibility of Survivors actually having zero chance of escape if everyone is asleep and there are no means of being able to wake up.
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At the very least, I don't see his invisibility while people are awake thing going away. It would not make sense if awake Survivors could just see him.
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@Luigifan64 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/342132#Comment_342132
I mean you'd have to sacrifice a perk slot for that ability and it would be a good buff to Vigil to make it usable, but it would be more of a niche perk still because of the better perk options you could go with.
Note that if you have other abilities tacked on to Vigil, then you're not really sacrificing a perk slot, are you?
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I'd be for it if there was a way to still report problematic players.
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@Slayer said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/342777#Comment_342777
Lets let the devs fix\balance the game first
If I recall correctly, it wad said that the idea for the upcoming Decisive Strike came from the forums.
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@deathsia said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/342964#Comment_342964
even if i did, you'd just claim i photoshopped it so I'm not gonna bother.
"It happened but I'm not gonna prove it" is generally not a good position to take.
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@MhhBurgers said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/342852#Comment_342852
No it's impossible unless they REALLY ######### up hard.
I'm gonna have to disagree.
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@MhhBurgers said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/342832#Comment_342832
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_JdvSFQ6Qs&t=0m45s
For example a LF cannot do this.
No, but a Leatherface can still just rev up the chainsaw and down the pallet about as well. Leatherface can also just use add-ons to reduce charge-up (like Billy) to be able to just down them before they can drop the pallet. Easy? No, but still possible.
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@SuperPrincessChaser said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/341065#Comment_341065
Every time I tried to use that combo, the Survivors would hit me once with a Pallet, see I have Enduring and drop them early for the rest of the match. I've had that happen way more than the combo actually working sadly. If they do that, there goes two perk slots, so while it's a good combo it's easily countered if the Survivors are observant.
Here's an idea: Why not run just Enduring and trick people into thinking you're also running Spirit Fury? Sure, Enduring doesn't come up when people drop pallets early as a result, but you could argue that that's still preferable to getting hit with the pallets to begin with.
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@MhhBurgers said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/342811#Comment_342811
The difference is that billy exposes you basically after a fast pallet break unless you're right next to another junglegym, experienced billys will even hit you with the chainsaw on loops if you screw up. I'm not saying it's not earned, I'm just saying other killers have no way to outplay survivors like that.
All I'm saying is that if the devs want to bring SOME semblance of balance to this game then killers like billy and nurse need nerfing, only then can we really start asking to nerf ridiculous crutches like BT that are not super op against those guys but screw over 70% of the killer roster.
I mean, the good Survivors are going to have a pretty good idea of how to chart their course so that their chances of being led into a dead zone are minimized, no? To me, it seems like Billy is about as good at loops as, say, Leatherface (though obviously Billy's map control is unparalleled, which makes up for the looping).
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@MhhBurgers said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/342806#Comment_342806
He is less affected by looping than other killers (exception Nurse, Legion and potentially spirit/clown), for example if somebody drops a pallet you move them away from other jungle gyms/pallets and chainsaw the pallet, you can start revving your chainsaw during your way to the pallet where you essentially break it in maybe 1 sec leaving the survivor at worst completely exposed in an open area against a chainsaw.
the difference to legion and spirit/clown is that billy will instantly kill you if you mess up as surv, the others still give you a chance.
Perhaps I am mistaken, but that to me kinda just sounds like pretty straightforward looping but with a faster pallet break.
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@Mushwin said:
eh it can happen, but those who know how to play him, really? looping? nope
What makes looping not a good tool against the Hillbilly?
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I managed to get a Survivor game against a Pig running Jigsaw's Annotated Plan (the one that raises the timer) where I was able to get a Reverse Bear Trap on my head and time the beeping progression.
FIrstly, I learned that Jigsaw's Annotated Plan only adds 20 seconds to the clock because the trap snapped at about 2m50s. I assumed that Annotated Plan added 30 seconds to the clock beacuse Tampered Timer allegedly reduces the timer by 30 seconds and also uses the "Moderately" term, so it's strange that this is not the case. Curious as to if this is intentional or not.
Anyways, there are indeed 4 beeping stages, and each stage lasted about 42.5 seconds, for a total of ~170 seconds.
If we use the default 2m30s timer, that would put each phase at about 37.5 seconds, and it's probably a safe guess that using Tampered Timer (which supposedly reduces the clock to 2m00s) should reduce each phase to 30 seconds.
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This is only my opinion, but here is where my list would differ from OP's:
I would switch Stridor and Thanatophobia for Nurse in OP's list. Stridor is not a bad perk IMO, but I think Thanatophobia does too little to be much good.
I'd also switch Monitor and Abuse with Overcharge for Doctor. Being able to reduce your TR is good to be able to get the jump on Survivors more easily.
For Clown, I'd switch Bamboozle with Pop Goes the Weasel. When Weasel works, it definitely works, but the timer can often be a liability if you can't find a nearby gen. Meanwhile, Bamboozle being able to mess up certain jungle gyms can be pretty valuable.
Finally, for Spirit, I personally would switch Haunted Ground with Spirit Fury. When combined with Enduring, it can shorten a chase considerably under the right circumstances and can dissuade Survivors from trying to drop a pallet on you if they suspect you have it. Meanwhile, Haunted Ground can be inconsistent, and popping it would cause anyone you're not in a chase with to go scrambling and just wait out the Exposed timer.
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@deathsia said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/342141#Comment_342141
Players can wake each other up, if Freddy is on their tail not giving them time to wake each other up then that's a good freddy! So if everyone's asleep and standing at the exit if this gets fixed/patched then they don't get a "Get out of jail free" card for standing at the exit in hopes of freddy smacking them.
This would discourage people from running to the exit while in dreamworld since there's no way out. I guess if you really want to counterbalance this, they can wake themselves up but it can only be once the exit gates are powered, takes much longer, and it inflicts the exposed status on them which does not wear off. This I think would balanced solution I think.
@deathsia said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/342141#Comment_342141
Players can wake each other up, if Freddy is on their tail not giving them time to wake each other up then that's a good freddy! So if everyone's asleep and standing at the exit if this gets fixed/patched then they don't get a "Get out of jail free" card for standing at the exit in hopes of freddy smacking them.
This would discourage people from running to the exit while in dreamworld since there's no way out. I guess if you really want to counterbalance this, they can wake themselves up but it can only be once the exit gates are powered, takes alot longer, and it inflicts the exposed status on them which does not wear off until after they are downed in the dreamworld again. This I think would balance things out
A player can't use the Wake Up action to wake someone else up if they themself are asleep. With your suggestion, it would be possible for no one to be able to escape if everyone is asleep and no one has anything to either heal or fail a skill check with.
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@deathsia said:
oh but they'll try, they scream: "Held the game hostage!" in the report section.
That's called "False Reporting" and accomplishes nothing.
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Now's as good a time as any to ask: What does it mean for a user to be in jail?
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@VESSEL said:
But doesn't that use up a lot of time? Plus it's holding up the match so therefore a reportable offence?
Hatch stand-off is not a reportable offense, especially when an active RBT means that the Survivor will die if they don't do anything about.
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@deathsia said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/340931#Comment_340931
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/341813#Comment_341813
It's called they stand at the very edge of the exit wounded KNOWING that when I strike them, they get an instant crawl escape and if i leave them alone, they'll just wake each other up and escape anyways.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/340834#Comment_340834
Read above and how about you git gud. (oh noes! they called me a bunch of names! MOD! MOD! They're calling me names that are totally deserved but i don't care! spank them!)
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/341462#Comment_341462
Read my reply to nea-death and megmain and tell me its the dumbest thing ever still.
What about my question? What happens when everyone is asleep with no way to wake up? Do they just insta-lose?
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@HatCreature said:
If we do have a light based power I'm going to be quoting Dr. Light from DC lol I'll have so much fun.
WE MUST STOP DOCTAH WAHWEE
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What happens when one or more Survivors have no way of waking up? Would they just be screwed?
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Whoever is closer to dying.
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Pig crouch FTWBravo0413 said:You realize when you run NOED you can just hit the savior right? BT is designed to help against camping so.. -
That would be sweet. Only weird thing would be when he pulls the trap out of his butt if he has no traps on-hand, but that's a minor issue IMO.
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That is a fair point that I did not consider, but I would imagine there are scenarios where this could still happen, either because the Survivor got really lucky withe RBTs or perhaps you didn't trap them because you wanted to hold onto a trap or two for the endgame. It's still something that I'd want to see looked at, regardless.The_Crusader said:You know thinking about this logically...
- If you down them at the exit gates you can pick them up and carry them if they're "fresh" since they wont have DS.
- They can only use DS if they have been hooked within 60 seconds previously.
- As Pig you would have probably put a trap on them before that.
- It is extremely unlikely that the survivor would get off the hook at endhame, remove the bear trap, then run to the edge of the exit gate all within 60 seconds. It can happen but it wont be common.
So really as long as you put a trap on them before you hook them you should be ok. -
The issue is that a Survivor WOULD be able to escape without dying because the RBTs are programmed to not trigger past the Exit Gates unless the Survivor deliberaty enter that area while wearing a Reverse Bear Trap (as said before, this was done to prevent the Pig from killing someone by carrying them through the "No RBTs past this point" zone). If you put an RBT on someone while they are in that zone, they are free to go unless for one reason or another, they choose to head back into the trial.EntityDispleased said:
Proper survivors hit that DS skill check any day of the week like their lives depend on it, regardless of UP or Doctor. Beside, UP is a trash perk especially without distressing. You also don't have to hit the skillcheck every single time, that's the risk of running this perk. And Amanda's skill check perks only apply to her jigsaw boxes.Peasant said:If "Devisive" Strike is the problem what about Unnerving Presence?
That perk will reduce the skill check success zone, increasing the odds of failure. Plus it synergizes with some of Amanda's Add-ons, doesn't it?
As for OP, I'm not sure what the issue is with this. If you down a survivor with their DS active and put a trap on them they won't be able to escape without dying. Or am I missing something?
This was okay with the previous D-Strike because you could dribble them back into the trial so they couldn't escape, but with the new D-Strike, a Survivor with D-Strike who gets head-trapped in that area can still break free with D-Strike and escape knowing that the Killer has no way to bring them out of that zone. -
I wouldn't say that "Devising a Strike" is the PROBLEM, persay. More that the failsafe programmed to prevent Pig from cheesing kills wasn't designed with the new D-Strike in mind, and said failsafe should maybe be looked at again.Peasant said:If "Devisive" Strike is the problem what about Unnerving Presence?
That perk will reduce the skill check success zone, increasing the odds of failure. Plus it synergizes with some of Amanda's Add-ons, doesn't it?
The Skill Check success zone for the new D-Strike was increased anyways, so any effect that Unnerving Presence could have theoretically had to combat this is likely reduced a fair bit, if not outright nullified. Besides, all the add-ons that involve Skill Checks are complete trash (IMO) anyways, even with Unnerving Presence. -
It does still have a Skill Check, yes, but the Skill Check was moved to happen sooner so a Survivor can escape before they can be dribbled. Presumably, this means that a Killer isn't going to be able to move before they get stunned by D-Strike.Chaotic_Riddle said:
From what I’ve read, the D-Strike is still the same in which it has a skill-check. The solution here that I’m saying is that Fire It Up would give you just a SMALL bit of time to move maybe a few inches, but combine it with agitation and you could make those few inches a bit longer and manage to possibly get that trapped survivor out of the exit gate to run around and go find either a Jigsaw Box or the Hatch. This is just a theory though, as we can’t test it out until the PTB comes out, but it seems like a plausible answer to your issue. I’ll try to test it out with a friend of mine when the PTB comes out, if you wish.TAG said:
I'm not sure how Fire Up or Agitation are supposed to help here. If D-Strike procs during the pick up process, does that not mean they (can) free themself before you actually start to move the Survivor? My understanding was that with the new D-Strike, a Survivor would be able to free themself before a Killer even has a chance to do anything.Chaotic_Riddle said:Fire It Up and Agitation would be solutions. Fire It Up helps improve the speed at which Killers pick a Surivor up, and since the D-Strike happens when the pick up animation begins, the bonus speed will be useful. With Agitation, you can get a bit of distance to try and make sure they’re at least outside of the exit. I would also say that bringing Blood Warden would MAYBE be useful, but that’s a 50/50 shot.
All that being said, I'd still appreciate it if you could test this out on my behalf (as I play on console and don't have access to the PTB) in case I am mistaken. -
I'm not sure how Fire Up or Agitation are supposed to help here. If D-Strike procs during the pick up process, does that not mean they (can) free themself before you actually start to move the Survivor? My understanding was that with the new D-Strike, a Survivor would be able to free themself before a Killer even has a chance to do anything. As far as Blood Warden, I wouldn't call that a terribly reliable answer in general, let alone in this specific situation.Chaotic_Riddle said:Fire It Up and Agitation would be solutions. Fire It Up helps improve the speed at which Killers pick a Surivor up, and since the D-Strike happens when the pick up animation begins, the bonus speed will be useful. With Agitation, you can get a bit of distance to try and make sure they’re at least outside of the exit. I would also say that bringing Blood Warden would MAYBE be useful, but that’s a 50/50 shot. -
The RBT not triggering on the Hatch is a deliberate design choice by the devs, for better or worse.
Personally, I would like to see the trap trigger on the Hatch, provided that measures are taken to make sure that the Hatch is still a realistically attainable goal for a Survivor with an RBT to obtain. I understand why the devs were careful with this, but I think it's a flavor fail to allow Survivors a way to escape the game without having to complete it (since, to my understanding, people who tried to run away from their games in the movies would be met with swift punishment). Even with the logic that "we don't want the last Survivor to have virtually no chance of escape if they're wearing a RBT" (which is a very reasonable line of thinking, to be fair), the fact that they can also just escape the trial completely if someone has a key is a HUGE flavor fail in my book that doesn't even make much sense from a balance standpoint. -
Interesting. This does seem quite helpful to know, even if the numbers are approximations. Many thanks.PigNRun said:Ok, I just had a match with Pig. I was wrong before. There are four types of beeping (not taking into consideration the Game Over one; five if we count that one), and they happen every 25%.
So, the real times are (again, taking default times only):
- Slow: 150-113 seconds left (2m 30s to 1m 53s)
- Slightly faster: 113-76 seconds left (1m 53s to 1m 16s)
- Medium: 76-39 seconds left (1m 16s to 39s)
- Fast: Less than 39 seconds left
(More or less approximations here. If you want exact numbers, we would have to consider if the round up or down :P)
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I imagine Hillbilly is probably up there. Just guessing, though.
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Your comments are appreciated.Mat_Sella said:I don't see the point of tally's, but i'll give you the points.
I'll agree with you on this one, though instead of adjusting her crouch height, maybe she can have an adjusted FOV/ camera to assist in her not having 50% of the screen covered by F***ing grass.
If this is to happen, The Pig's ability to see Jigsaw Boxes needs to be removed upon the third survivor dying/ leaving the match. Also, can we all agree that searching should be more difficult? skill checks are too easy across the board, maybe since Amanda likes to break the rules, Box search skill checks have a X% chance to go in reverse, increasing with the gears add-ons?
Synchronized Timer encourages Pig's to camp boxes if the timer is almost up, not good. The point of the RBT is encourage NOT tunneling the survivor who is carrying it. By forcing the survivor to make noise with it on, what is your average killer gonna do? move towards the loud noise indicator. I propose a different approach to this.
these are buffs along with what the perk already does
Utility Blade: Healing Skill Check success zones on a survivor with a RBT are Considerably reduced.Face Mask: Skill checks attempted with a RBT have Considerably reduced success zones.
Slow-Release Toxin: Once the trap is removed, Exhaustion perks are disabled for an additional 10 seconds for every 30 seconds spent with the RBT on. (applies until the next time an Exhaustion perk is available for use)
Rusty Attachments: (same as Utility Blade)
that should make things more skill based and should pressure survivors to be more careful with their actions.
1) It's mostly just to remove some memory issues with regards to who to put the trap on and who not to. It's a bit of a feel-bad when you forget that you've hooked someone twice already and put a trap on them, only for you to realize you wasted the trap when they immediately die on the hook. Admittedly, of everything I mentioned on this list, this is probably the thing I care about the least.
2) Eh, sure, why not. To be fair, I mainly put that one on the list because I've heard people suggest it and I was like "sure, that seems reasonable."
3a) Perhaps I am mistaken, but I don't see how that would affect much, personally. If you can't memorize the general box locations after having the box auras around for basically the whole match, what were you doing? But let's say for the sake of this discussion that I'm not necessarily opposed to that suggestion.
3b) Maybe? I think if the object is to make Skill Checks naturally tougher, it should be done across the board, not just on only the Boxes. Also, if the Skill Checks actually legitimately become challenging, the death timers might need to be adjusted to compensate. Not sure if people would be okay with that. I only speak for myself, but while I'm not looking to make the RBTs super efficient at killing (despite what my proposed changes to the RBTs on the Hatch might imply :P ), I would hate for the "death traps" to all-around become WORSE at killing.
4) My POV is that what you argue is already possible without being able to see the death timers. I admit that what I'm about to say is gonna sound really silly, but please bear with me on this: this could be accomplished by having someone sit next to you with a stopwatch (or by being able to multitask with your own stopwatch). It's like a deck tracker for a digital card game. It sure makes things easier, but you could accomplish the same with a paper and pen. The point is that if someone REAAAAALLY wants to keep track of a timer, they can already make it happen (to a point). Even ignoring that, it is not difficult to notice when someone's had the trap on their head for a suspiciously long time and look for them to see if the timer beeps actually confirm your suspicion. Sure, being able to see the timer would make that more efficient, but I personally don't believe that this is the straw that breaks the camel's back.
As for your ideas for the RBT penalty add-ons, I'm kinda 50/50. I actually quite like the Slow-Release Toxin idea because it actually makes the perk not a waste if you're not completely tunneling the Survivor in question, and I think the Face Mask idea is cute for the cheesy Meme Pig build (at the very least, I think that one add-on alone would be better for the Meme Pig build than Razor Wire and Interlocking Razor together). I don't think the other two ideas are gonna be that useful, though, especially if someone else heals the RBT player instead (which I assume would cause the Skill Check reductions to not apply).
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Had a game as Piggo against a presumably SWF team at the Gas Haven. I don't think I got a single hook before the gens were done; a non-Obsession Survivor I managed to down popped Decisive Strike before I could get to a hook, was downed again, was insta-healed with a syringe, took another hit, then was healed by Adrenaline when the last gen popped. After I managed to down someone after the gens were done, I got hit with the pallet and dropped the person I was carrying. At this point, the game was well out of my reach, and the Survivors were basically toying around with me.
Then I downed the person who originally had the insta-heal medkit and slapped a Reverse Bear Trap on them.I don't know what the hell happened after that. The person who got the trap on them was promptly hooked and eventually unhooked, leaving them to go get the trap off. Two other survivors (including the person who was healed with the Syringe) were futzing around in front of the garage by an unsafe pallet, and I managed to down one of them, trap them, and hook them. Went after the other person, and at some point the hooked person was unhooked. Managed to down the person I was chasing and trap them, but said unhooked person just randomly showed up again, so I went after them before I could pick up the person on the ground. I manage to down that person and throw them on the hook a second time, but I lost sight of the other person I downed. While THAT'S going on, the first person with the Reverse Bear Trap somehow couldn't get the damn thing off in time, and they just straight-up got killed by the trap. And when that person died, the fourth person in the group, who I never interacted with outside of getting slammed with the pallet while holding someone, just out-and-out disconnected (I'm guessing that player was salty because the group was trying to go for a 4-man escape, which was screwed up by the Reverse Bear Trap kill), leaving the person on the hook to die. Hatch is open, and the only person left is crawling on the ground with no way to get back up. I can't find them, so I instead opt to patrol the Hatch, which results in the last Survivor eventually disconnecting as well before they bled out.So basically, a seemingly well-coordinated SWF team managed to do all five gens without getting hooked once, completely gave me the runaround the whole time, then completely fell apart in a failed bid to secure a 4-man escape because they were trying to go for end-game BM, resulting in one death by sacrifice, one Reverse Bear Trap kill, two disconnects, and no escapes. -
The Bees. What's its power? MORE BEES.
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I think OP meant that it's a status condition that makes it so using a healing action of any kind would instead create a Deep Wounds-like bar under your HUD icon that automatically fills up over time and THEN actually recovers one health state once it's full. Kinda like an alternate take on Mangled.HazeHound said:Seems op. Tap button and get free heal while beeing chased or working on generators.
This game is already too easy you know. Take stiptic if you need insta heals. -
I'm all for balancing both Keys and Moris (without flat-out scrapping them, if possible). Hard to say how, though.
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Yeah, until they get the trap off. :PPeasant said:I would just like to point out at this time that combining the Tier III version of the Knockout perk and the Face Mask RBT add-on makes slugged survivors invisible. That is all.
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Would 60 seconds have been enought time? There's admittedly some level of assumption on my part, but I imagine that if the other Survivor is able to try and open an Exit Gate, it's because they were far enough from you that you wouldn't be able to both camp the hook and defend the Gate. That to me sounds like the Gate would be far enough that the Survivor who kobe'd and was downed would not be able to crawl to the Exit in 60 seconds. The exception would be if they were close-ish to the open Hatch and knew where it was.The_Crusader said:
Well I gave an example of one of my experiences as killer last nightfcc2014 said:@Condorloco_26 said:
Looking at all this mess I think it would've been better just to insta-drop/stun all non-obsession DS, so no more wasting time until they struggled out. That is such a gamebreaker now.Or as @fcc2014 says, have all non-obsession lose a perk slot. That would be the downside of equipping DS, the risk of not being able to use it. You want to make it sure? Equip 2 or 3 obsession perks yourself
We will see once people have all these "free" escapes at the end of the game. People like @The_Crusader is starting to catch on to what i was getting at. @Master and I both believe this wasn't a nerf at all. My personal opinion BHVR [BAD WORD] this up ROYALLY!
- Had 2 sacrificed, 2 alive
- Last gen done while I'm in a chase, put Nea on hook after
- Assume as this point the other player had opened a door and is coming back for the unhook so might as well camp this last kill
- Nea kobes, I knock her down and put her back on the hook
And I realized that under the new system she would have been better off. It would have been an instant DS, or 60 seconds is more than enough to crawl to an exit gate.
You either pick them up and take the stun or you leave them slugged for a minute hoping it wears off in time as you count the seconds in your head. The fact that there is no telltale sign is a real problem. I think killers need a notification the same way surviors get an "exposed" timer on their screen. -
@Mr_Myers said:
TAG said:I'm all for anything that makes it easier to get the usable Pig add-ons.
What, more skill check penalty or losing sight of the boxes aren't amazing?
Rare add-on + Very Rare add-on = weaker than Pig with no add-ons. :P
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What exactly makes it a slap in the face? I don't see what's really wrong with Deathgarden getting a licensed character and Dead by Daylight not getting one in a while?
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@Nea_Death_Experience said:
OOOH nice. Ill have to reply later because i dont have time to tackle this hahaha!I spent a LONG time writing that and freely admit that I put way too much thought into that, so I would not fault you if you didn't feel like replying to it. :P
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Sure, I'm open to discussion. Be prepared for a super wall of text. :P
Part I
1) I think there are definitely areas where things shouldn't be made too easily because they should be seen as a skill-testing thing; I don't think keeping track of who's been hooked how many times is really one of those things. It's just one less thing you need to memorize, and I don't see that as a bad thing in this case.Part II
1) In my opinion, the noise during charge up is a pretty huge drawback to the charge. It gives any not-bad Survivor a pretty big tell that they need to move, and considering that you kinda already need to be hiding in order to properly start charging before they run, you're already at a disadvantage when trying to actually land the hit. When just standing up and running at the Survivors ends up being a more consistently reliable way of surprising them than using the Ambush, I think we have a problem. Considering that Ambush is no good in an actual chase (barring the pretty rare instance of being able to mindgame at a pallet), I think moving the Ambush roar to later in the attack would make the Ambush more worth using.2) I should probably clarify; I simply think the first-person POV should be a bit higher while crouched. I don't want the Pig's model to actually be crouched less.
Part III
1) I admit I could very easily be wrong on this, but considering that the time to search through a Box would be cut by at least half (more if you get + land Skill Checks), I do not think this would overwhelm the Survivors. Sure, the Killer can patrol the boxes, but a Survivor would be at boxes for less time so they can hide more quickly and be able to afford to hide a little more since they're spending less time doing the actual searching. Not to mention that in most cases, the Survivor in question will have likely already spent some time searching for the Key since if they are in this situation, it is probably because the Survivor was busy chasing + hooking someone else. So when they're actually put into this situation, they're will likely already have searched through at least one box.2) I'm aware that the second one is already an add-on, which is the problem. I (and others) believe it should be base-kit. An issue the Pig has (IMO) is that the results for the Reverse Bear Traps can be a bit too swingy. When they're effective, they're good at stalling the game and buying more time. When they're not, they can be close to useless. That second one happens when people are able to quickly get the trap off on the first Box (especially if more than one Survivor on the same team gets the trap off quickly). If we can reduce that without significantly increasing the Traps' kill potential, we can ensure that the traps can be more consistent at buying you time. Also, you're not spending 30 seconds on a box; a box only takes 12 seconds to search through assuming you don't miss any Skill Checks, you don't hit any Great Skill checks, and the Pig isn't using Bag of Gears or Crate of Gears (even if she is using both, a Box would take about 17 seconds to search, definitely not 30). ALSO also, if you're getting trapped and then just straight-tunneled, you're likely dealing with a bad Pig player. IMO, in most cases, A Pig shouldn't be going out of their way to attack a Survivor wearing an RBT unless they happen to cross your path or they think your timer is close-ish to expiring.
Part IV
I think Reverse Bear Traps for the most part are in a decent place. Her add-ons, on the other hand, are not. I would argue that she has WAY too many trash add-ons. Not even "not great", but actual trash. I think saying the traps are free moris is giving them too much credit. Yes, the Pig is the only class to have an insta-kill built into her base kit, but that insta-kill is VERY hard to pull off. And this is no accident: the devs have deliberately designed the RBTs to primarily waste Survivors' time as opposed to actually be able to kill. Yes, she suffers from being looped and not having map pressure and whatnot. Those are downsides that I am accepting are limitations of the Pig. What I'm trying to do is enhance areas of her gameplay that I feel can afford to be safely enhanced. When she gets that first hit with the Ambush, she's kinda just stuck as an M1 killer and is at the mercy of the usual chase shenanigans, for better or worse.I think ALL of the trap penalty add-ons are bad because they run fully counterproductive to the goal of the RBTs. Their abilities are only relevant if you are actively harassing the Survivors wearing RBTs, and if you're doing that, I'd say you're playing Pig wrong. If you're not on top of them, you may as well not be using perks at all (the only arguable exception is the Rusty Attachments, which I feel are just outclassed by Sloppy Butcher). With the scream penalty inflicted, you no longer have to be constantly on top of the Survivors. If they scream and you feel you are close enough to capitalize on it, you can make the attempt to do so. Considering that you'd have to be using add-ons to get the scream ability, you get none of the other benefits of Madness, and a Survivor can mitigate the screaming by crouching some of the time, I think it's an acceptable thing to do. Again, hard-tunneling a Survivor wearing an RBT is generally very counter-intuitive to the Pig's game plan, and the idea is that the screaming will make it so you don't have to go into hard-tunnel mode.
Compare the idea of starting with an RBT on your head to Freddy's Black Box. The game already starts with them penalized, but they are able to free themselves from that penalty in time. Unlike Freddy's Black Box, the Pig won't have super Aura-reading of that Survivor. Sure, the boxes are there, but with the timer not being active, the Survivor is not actually in a rush yet to get the trap off yet and can afford to be sneaky sneaky to get the trap off. If the Pig gets too cheeky with trying to harass the person with the RBT, she's just opening herself up to being wrecked by a gen push (or, with a coordinated SWF team, with 99%ing gens and then popping them all once when the Survivor actually gets the trap off). The Pig has to eventually focus on defending gens and whatnot. PERHAPS I'm wrong on this, but my view is that if a person gets salty and just DCs because they started with a trap on their head, that speaks more about them than about the add-on.
I strongly disagree with the idea of sabotaging Reverse Bear Traps. Heck, I'm against the idea of sabotaging REGULAR bear traps. I am staunchly against the idea of anything that is not a Killer add-on directly affecting a Killer's power. I don't understand this idea of tunneling Survivors with RBTs. That is not a good way to play the Pig IMO. It's just squandering all the time-wasting benefit of the RBTs. Why would a Pig go out of their way to hunt down someone who almost certainly is not working on gens when they could be attacking someone else and have two people distracted? You say that you have to play the Pig to value (which I agree with), but if you're tunneling a Survivor with an RBT, you're doing the opposite of that.
As for why I think all these add-ons need changes, the short is that, as I've said before, too many of them are actual trash in my opinion, but to elaborate a little more:
-Workshop Grease, Razor Wire, and Interlocking Razor are trash IMO because Survivors that aren't bad are not going to have issues hitting those Skill checks (even with Unnerving Presence making those Skill Checks harder), rendering them 99% useless. You may as well be going with no add-ons. When a Rare add-on feels like it may as well be no add-on, that's a problem.
-John's Medical File and Shattered Syringe are both strictly worse than Video Tape (which is only an uncommon), and I don't really like the idea of them being ONLY usable with Video Tape (and even then, that only really applies to John's Medical File; I think Shattered Syringe is just trash). I want there to be more of a reason to use them, and I'd especially want there to be a reason to use them together (technically, the current Jigsaw's Annotated Plan + Tampered Timer has the same problem compared to the current Jigsaw's Sketch, but I don't think there's much that can really be done about that).
-As I said earlier, all of the add-ons that inflict penalties to RBT wearers are trash IMO because they are only relevant (again, ARGUABLY except for Rusty Attachments) when you are hard tunneling the Survivors in question, which defeats the purpose of the RBTs in the first place.
-Unlike other people, I don't actually think Jigsaw's Annotated Plan is trash. BUUUUUT I do think that it doesn't need to have such a steep downside for a Rare. The ONLY reason I could see it adding 30 seconds to the clock instead of 15 seconds is because there's a possibility that it could cause problems when combined with Jigsaw's Sketch if the timer were any lower. This is something that would have to be tested, but my guess is that it is not actually an issue. If Tampered Timer + Crate of Gears or Tampered Timer + Jigsaw's Sketch is considered okay, I think you could get away with 6 boxes and a 2m45s timer. The fact that I think an extra 30 seconds for an extra box is still doable is why I would be okay with moving the current Annotated Plan to Uncommon and making a Rare add-on that only adds 15 seconds.
-I would argue that Amanda's Secret is THE WORST Killer add-on in the game, bar none. It sucks. It SUUUUUCKS. I've said this elsewhere, but the gist is that the upsides it gives are super unreliable, and the penalty of taking away the Box auras for the Pig is significant. There will be times where you actually do want to try and patrol Jigsaw Boxes a bit while you're making your way to gens, but if you can't track where they might be, you can't do that. It is basically a net-nerf for the Pig, which I think is ridiculous.
-I don't think Rules Set No. 2 as it currently is is worth the Ultra Rare add-on status. It does do SOMETHING, but that something isn't huge. This is where the argument for making it base-kit comes from. It's a quality-of-life improvement that makes the Reverse Bear Traps better at stalling for time but isn't really worth taking away an add-on slot (and certainly not worth 7000 bloodpoints to very rarely have access to).
-I think the downsides of Amanda's Letter are overkill. Compare it to the Wraith's "All-Seeing - Blood" add-on (which is not even an Ultra Rare). Both give the Killer aura-reading of 12 meters when using their stealth powers. HOWEVER:
1) The Wraith turns virtually invisible when stealthing, while the Pig just crouches down.
2) The Wraith moves FASTER when cloaked, while the Pig is SLOWER when crouched.
3) The Wraith has numerous add-ons that can be paired with "All-Seeing - Blood" to mitigate the warning the Wraith gives when he rings his bell to un-cloak; the Pig has only two add-ons to be paired with "Amanda's Letter" that do such a thing (and given what I've said about John's Medical File vs. Video Tape, she may as well only have one). Yes, you can use "Last Will", but that doesn't actually make Amanda's stealthing any better; it just mitigates the significant downside "Amanda's Letter" imposes.All-Seeing - Blood can at least be used on most maps without it feeling too useless, but Amanda's Letter suffers in a similar way that Michael Myers's "Scratched Mirror" and "Vanity Mirror" add-ons do, in that their utility is severely hampered unless you're playing on either The Game or Léry's Memorial Institute. One COULD make the argument that Amanda's Letter shouldn't be on the same level as All-Seeing - Blood because the Pig effectively has two powers (crouch+ambush and Reverse Bear Traps), but I would say that the differences listed above are enough reason to argue that removing the downsides on Amanda's Letter would not lead to it being overpowered in any way. Also, removing the downsides on Amanda's Letter has the added benefit of reducing the chances of an unfun scenario for an unlucky Survivor. With only two Boxes, a Survivor has a 50/50 chances of getting their trap off on the first box. If they DON'T, the Pig can just sit in front of the other Box and completely screw over that Survivor. Is it beneficial to the Pig? Not really. Is it something the Pig can do to make that Survivor miserable? Absolutely. With Last Will, the Pig can do this twice.
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@White_Owl said:
@EntityDispleased said:
I mean if you played the game long enough to face a Myers you'd know what the exposed effect is. It doesn't sound professional nor does it fit the game to just type out "one-hit down" to describe a status effect. Sloppy butcher mentions the mangled effect but it doesn't say anything about slow heals, you just have to learn by playing the game.Adding a list of all status effects and what exactly they do in the tutorial/help section would be pretty neat though.
I'm gonna be that guy and say there actually is a section about status effects
Well, now that that's out of the way, I think it's safe to say that we're done here.
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Wingdings.
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Leatherface would like a word. :PMhhBurgers said:They could stir up some free advertisement by going the route of a real religion but they are much too SJW for that.