FireHazard
FireHazard
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I'm sure there's a "just do bones" joke in there somewhere.
But a lot of people have debated what should be done with NOED... so... your guess is as good as mine. I hardly come across it anyways at Red Ranks, it's more-so a Purple/Green rank perk at this point. I do see it in Red Ranks sometimes, but that's rare.
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I thought you said "Does anyone know the new grit strats" which made me think of Mad Grit the perk. But no, you meant the new Rift. Nobody knows the date but it'll start soon as the twitter post suggests in the bottom right hand side of the forums feed.
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@DrBrain said:
DD and DH are the most broken perks in the game. There was already a study done by some redditor who ran 100 games and saw 86 of those games had DH and 92 games had DS.
thats insanity. DH needs to be turbo nerfed into the ground
I wouldn't turbo nerf it into the ground, but changing it to remove the distance part would probably make it less used and more centered around skill based Survivors. Which by all means is a good thing since the meta is already stale for Survivor and somewhat Killer.
@danielmaster87 said:
It's the best exhaustion perk in the game when it wants to be. Sadly dedicated servers ruin it.
As I mentioned to someone else who brought that up, I rarely see Dedicated Servers ruining the perk in my Killer games. Ironically if I used it as a Survivor I'd probably see that issue come up, but for my Killer games I've only come across it probably 3, 4, 5 times at most. It really isn't as common as some think it's, but perhaps I'm just lucky (or unlucky if we're talking about me being the Killer).
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@Avilgus said:
My only problem with DH it's when it's used to counter a trap, because the Trapper has already too many, and mostly easy, counters.
Otherwise i think it's a strong but fair perk, one of the few "skilfull" perk.
It really depends on which scenario we're talking about yeah, some are unfair while others are.
@th3 said:
I do dislike dead hard for distance but the fact that using it as a “dodging” perk often times fails so much it’s much more useful to do it for distance rather than letting the killer and your ping put you on the ground with the exhausted effect.
But the ideas and explanation brought up really helped me with viewing other things in a different light so thanks
No problem, glad the post could help out in some way.
@Marc_go_solo said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1667243#Comment_1667243
Point taken, but I guess within the trial where the contact is physical it would be nice to have at least that part of the realm making sense (I'm ignoring Huntress hit boxes as well :D).
I suppose, it really just depends on what can be realistic while other aspects of the game are not.
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@[Deleted User] said:
Dead Hard is only frustrating when its used for distance (because there is literally no counterplay on Killer side). The Legion was reworked because their power had no counterplay, however, its not exactly easy to rework Dead Hard, or create additional conditioning in an effort to add counterplay.
It's something that I'm comfortable putting up with as a Killer, because the vast majority of times, Dead Hard results in the Survivor going down (whether from poor timing, or usage). The current 'counterplay' for Dead Hard, is to bait it out (or use exhaustion add-ons/perks), but that can't be done if the Survivor plans to use it to extend a chase.
I mean, they could just remove the distance entirely and give it a few seconds of invincibility frames to dodge a hit. That'd solve the distance problem and I can still see it being used in the meta, just not as a distance perk anymore.
@SunderMun said:
The invulnerability makes it the best exhaustion perk in the game. I'd say it's unfair and a crutch. A perk like this makes hard games even harder for killers, and that's not really fair. I say we remove invulnerability and make it so that it is only a 'for distance' perk, which can still be annoying but is pretty fair and fits in with the logic of other exhaustion perks.
It's not fun losing a hit from a successful outplay because the other person pressed E inside of you. And it would also negate the annoyance of 'I PRESSED E' complaints since it wouldn't be intended to make you invulnerable, but to get you away from the killer.
Well the issue with that is than the lunge from the Killer can easily out distance it, which removes the possibility of dodging it without the frames themselves. I think if they did the opposite and removed the distance THAN it'd be more reasonable AND the distance/mistake correction issue would cease to be.
@gatsby said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1667530#Comment_1667530
Dead Hard for dodging hits is fair because its unreliable and risky. Dead Hard for distance is fair mainly because Killers have perks to shorten the distance in chases like Brutal Strength, STBFL and Bamboozle. If Killers can lessen the distance made in chases with perks, it's fine for Survivors to increase the distance made in chases.
Not everyone runs those perks though to prevent that, some Killers don't use them at all and they're M1 Killers. Usually Brutal is something you'd see on PURE M1 Killers like Wraith or Pig who really need it, while on GhostFace or Myers they can get free hits easily while focusing on perk builds that're centered around their stealth abilities.
Also in the case for "DH for Distance" STBFL wouldn't do anything if you can't hit them in that scenario, Bamboozle can only do some much at certain loops, and Brutal Strength would just reduce it by a few seconds... but they'd still possible get to another loop anyways.
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@Johnny_XMan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1667160#Comment_1667160
Extending the chase is the purpose of the perk otherwise what is it suppose to do?
I get that you don’t like the perk but it is not as strong or unfair as people think. Not when you can do much more with other perks. At close range this perk shines, at longer range other perks are far better.
If you are whiffing a lot because you can’t bait it out, that’s on you. That’s like saying that just because you whiff at window fake techs it must be broken and survivors shouldn’t be able to keep sliding against the wall.
I’ve had so many people try to use DH mid 360 and fail miserably. It’s really not hard to bait out. Especially when they have nowhere else to go.
It wasn't originally to extend a chase via distance, it was originally used as a dodge perk before it was changed into a dodge + distance perk.
Also I wasn't implying that the perk is busted either, I was simply stating that the perk itself has cases where the Killer cannot prevent or counter it when it's used. Hence why the distance and mistake correction argument continues to be brought up, since that's what most Survivors use it for now because that's the meta. Some use it for more creative and complex strategies which in my eyes is fair since they could possible make a mistake and go down, but in the case for DH for distance I don't think it's fair.
Whiffing the hits has nothing to do with it, if I whiff a hit that's my fault depending on what's happening in that scenario, but there are cases where lunging or doing nothing doesn't matter, since they'll reach their destination anyways.
To be clear, I'm not talking about 360 DHs, DHs for saves, DHs in complex loops, etc. I'm mainly focusing on the perk itself, the scenarios that're unfair with it, and even how the perk can affect the match if multiple people use it. That's not even mentioning how it pairs with other perks.
I can counter DH, I've done it for years, but there are some cases where you can't counter it at all because of the distance.
@Thatgurl_again said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1667169#Comment_1667169
I think dead hard is fine as it is, I play killer a ton and most people that I run into dont use dead hard they use sprint burst
The opposite is for me funny enough. I actually see people use SP less than DH, probably because DH is a lot easier to manage and use than SP is. SP is a acquired taste... it takes a certain amount of management to use or 99%, which requires you to slow down.
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@Marc_go_solo said:
Dead Hard only needs a minor tweak for realism, which is to not to be able to Dead Hard through a Killer (and even then, it's not as if it annoys me).
It's a good defence and a strong perk, but as has been mentioned before it's also got the potential to act less like a perk and more a hinderance (misjudging using it, dead hard into a wall).
I don't think it needs any change, other than for realism.
Well... I wouldn't call it realism since we're playing a game in a alternate dimension that's owned by a omnipotent entity... I'd say it's more for the sake of balance I guess? Idk...
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@SadLegion said:
Interesting topic. This perk is unfair in situations when there is nothing you can do to play around it, and it buys survivor team a lot of time, sometimes making difference between win and loss, escape or death for survivors. My biggest problem with it is that not only it cant be counterplayed when its used for distance, but it counters a lot of killers abilities, and skillful plays using that ability just by pressing a single button. It feels extremely cheap in this situations, because there is absolutely nothing you as a killer can do to play around dead hard, and its not a skillful play by survivor either, all you need to do is press a button in a correct timing.
For example Punishment of the Damned is easily avoidable on reaction. There is literally nothing you can do, Dead Hard will always guarantee a survivor one "outplay" over it. I dont play Huntress, but i think same applies to her Hatchet throw? Blights Lethal Rush: in most situations killer wont have another object nearby to bait a deadhard or time/charges to do it, so it will be one free escape for survivor with DH. Hillbillies Chainsaw. DH over Bear Trap. This is probably the most notable killers abilities that are freely dodged by DH.
While DH for distance becomes less relevant the longer the match goes, since there will be less pallets and more deadzones, DH against this killer abilities is always free and easy unpreventable dodge. And its my main problem with this perk, since i main Blight and Pyramid Head. It always feels cheap when i shoudve landed a cool PotD shot, but a survivor just pressed "E" lmao.
And as others said the more survivors have this perk in a match, the more impact it has on the outcome. I lost many matches solely due to Dead Hard, and the time it buys for survivors. No doubt about it. I think if anyone will count how much time he lost due to DH every match, results are gonna be shocking.
DH usually applies to everything because it has invincibility frames. In the past I would say that the invincibility is in the distance portion of the perk itself, but a few years back I realized that the perk actually just gives FLAT invincibility frames, even if the Survivor DH's into a wall and the Killer swings at them.
It's happened many times to me actually where I catch the survivor in a corner and they DH when I swing, I miss somehow despite them not even gaining any distance, but was still able to down them because they got pushed into a wall around a loop. This actually happens a lot more often than you think.
So yeah, it does avoid Huntresses hatchets, Corrupted Plague, Bear Traps, etc. Anything that has a hitbox is ignored for the duration of DHs activation, which is... odd. I guess it's because it used to be a dodge perk which makes sense, but the distance perk being invincible is why people don't usually like it.
As for DH for distance not being relevant as the match progresses, this is only half true if you haven't baited everyone who potentially has it. If the entire team has it, it can still be an issue because of the distance/mistake correction argument, despite knowing they have it.
In a way, the perk really just depends on which situation it's in to be deemed fair or unfair. The distance issue to me is unfair, while cleaver plays that require a risk is fair.
@Zozzy said:
It is unfair when used correctly.
Killers need to outplay a survivor 2 to 3 times for a single hit (depending on the loop) meaning survivors can make 2 to 3 mistakes per the killers one mistake in a chase when using this perk. Then you have its ability to make distance (this part should be removed) allowing a survivor to reach loops that they should not reach or stretch out a loop far beyond what it should do and reset the chase.
The perk also 100% counters killers like Blight and Nurse turning every survivor into a 3 hit down per chase.
Some people have said that the perk getting reverted back to a dodge perk would be the most reasonable thing in terms of a nerf. While this post wasn't to get the perk nerfed, it's the most reasonable change that anyone can really suggest to the perk.
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@Tsair said:
I main nurse, so second chance perks don't really bother me much... But I don't think DH is unfair. It gives less distance than the other exhaustion perks, the other ones just feel like an 'Oh, they got away' rather than the immediate denial of a down that dead hard gives. It's the mental planning that it disrupts that really makes people dislike it, but I don't think it's any more oppressive than other exhaustion perks. I'd much rather someone have the predictable dead hard and I can outplay it and hit them a second later, rather than sprint burst which disrupts the entire start of a chase. If they use it for distance, then it's just like any other exhaustion perk. Situational, they had to be in position that would allow them to use it. Good survivors can put themselves in this position often. I've played against a LOT of people who are bad with dead hard, and they basically forfeit a perk slot, or give me hits thinking I won't account for it. Dead hard is hard to outplay against people skilled with it, and that's where the frustration comes in.
Well both SP and DH have their own uses, but I don't personally consider one to be better than the other. The reason for this is that SP gives an advantage at the start of the chase, which at the end of its boost is entirely based on the Survivors skills after.
In terms of how DH functions, it's based on the Survivors skills for the first half, while in most cases it's used for distance and corrects a potential down. After that the chase continues and the Survivor might waste more time just from that one save, so in a way it can be a lot more demoralizing that SP, at least in my eyes anyways.
@ClickyClicky said:
Dead Hard is like old DS. It can delay that highly important 1st hook.
Wish I could find that game of Umbra as Oni and an early game dead hard completely screws her as the survivor makes it to a god pallet and then just combos off that.
I’ve had a number of games where a DH for distance just adds so much time onto the first chase, often it ends with me having to change targets mid chase at that point which leaves me with an injure rather than a hook.
Anything on the survivor side that delays the 1st hook is extremely powerful. It’s why old DS was infinitely worse than new DS and people forget that. Exhaustion perks are the same.
Well... not really when comparing it to old DS. Yes the perk in a way can get more time out of a chase than DS could, but old DS could be activated whenever as the obsession and non-obsessions only need a 40% wiggle bar to use it. In a way, old DS had zero counter-play, while DH at least as some in certain cases.
But I see what you mean by the potential for DH, it really just depends on the situation at the end of the day. Old DS could even extend chases too and you couldn't even avoid it at all.
@Raz_ said:
How is a perk unfair what is not working 90% of the time.
Dead hard can be countered easily.
if you say Dead hard is unfair then a lot of things on the killer side are also unfair.
Dedicated servers, bloodlust, Spirit fury enduring combo, aim assist, lunge of killers, insta downs, moris etc etc
there are a lot of other unfair perks on the survivor side and you choose the one who is probably the worse because its not working mostly.
I hardly ever notice that bug, in-fact I think I've only encountered it 3 times in the past year since the bug started. And yes, a lot of things on the Killer side are also unfair, but that's not the point I was trying to make.
The point I was trying to make is how the perk works in certain cases that cannot be avoided, that doesn't mean other Killer perks should also be ignored.
@Justalittlepeeck said:
DH for distance = unfair, uncounterable and broken mess that must be fixed, unless devs want survivors to have stuff that have zero counterplay.
DH to dodge hits = balanced, fair and counterable.
The distance part paired with the mistake correction potential is usually what bothers most people about the perk. It's unfortunately all because of the distance portion of the perk and not the dodge aspect itself.
As for the other point, if used in creative and tricky plays that COULD get you downed, it's fair in my eyes and I'm sure most others as well.
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@Suiv said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/196540/dead-hard-fair-or-unfair
So you know how to counter it but yet are still complaining that it is unfair. Dead hard legit does hurt you as a killer at all even if they "dead hard for distance" that's only about 5-10 secs wasted depending on the loop. Yeah sure if they dead hard for distance to a pallet it has no counter play, but yet there are still god pallets in the game. I think God pallets are more of a worry then dead hard. Hell there is even wrongful use of ds as well there are many things survivor can do that has no counterplay that are more important then dead hard.
I'm not complaining about it actually, hence why I said that I didn't want it nerfed. If that happened than it must be for a reason, but the whole point of the post was to bring up certain aspects of the perk that're unavoidable or in better terms unfair.
If we go back to the point about the distance argument, you have no idea if that extended the chase for 5 - 10 seconds or 2 minutes. Depending on who's using it, even the worst survivor can extend a chase with a lot of well placed loops in the area. In some cases it does waste only a few seconds, but usually when it's used at a loop than other loops are nearby for further chases.
And yes, I do know how to counter it, sometimes you can't counter the perk at all though.
@Bard said:
Dead Hard has no downside (other than lag) or counterplay (other than "run exhaustion add-ons").
This is not inherently unfair, as perks being a pure plus can be totally fine (botany, lightweight, or brutal strength for example).
The problem is that on top of being a pure plus, it's also a massive bonus, effectively +1 health state on every single chase as long as you aren't oneshot.
So... yeah. Open and shut case, completely unfair, but it's a survivor perk, so I expect to see nerfs some time between "avian pig independence day" and "the Hades Ice-skating tournament".
Those dates are interesting despite being a joke... I think... But yeah, it isn't inherently unfair it's just certain cases it is.
@Mat_Sella said:
Considering it completely fails and leaves you spasming on the ground with Exhaustion half the time, yeah, I think Dead Hard is alright.
Well, that isn't really how the perk is supposed to function anyways. I guess I'm speaking theoretically since it does fail sometimes like you said and uses the exhaustion anyways, I just hardly notice it ever failing like that as Killer, so it doesn't feel like that issue exists in the first place. So in a way, I'm talking as if that unintentional bug didn't exist, since it really doesn't most of the time.
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@ClickyClicky said:
For context just remember how much survivors used to complain about Enduring/Spirit fury when it was meta. “Itz Da fwee hIt”
Dead Hard is basically the survivor equivalent. Except it takes 1 perk slot rather than 2 and doesnt require you to do anything beforehand.
DH is like if killers had enduring/SF on a button press every chase. Grants you a freebie you weren’t gonna get otherwise.
I think in the case of Enduring + Spirit Fury it was different, since you had to actually break 2 pallets for it to activate. DH could be used at the start of the game, with an added exhaustion debuff of course, but still.
Either way, in the case of the comparison I'd say the drawback to using the perk is a lot less than that combo, since like you said it takes 2 slots to use and it requires 2 pallets to break in-game. In a way it's the same yeah, just not literally in terms of when it's used and the conditions it has.
@Pepsidot said:
Best perk in the game. To be honest, its not a fair perk... it allows for survivors to greed loops often without much of a risk. Allows you to get to window/pallets you wouldn't have made it to otherwise.
Allows you to avoid an otherwise certain blink hit. You can YEET over bear traps, avoid plague (and corrupt plague), huntress, clown and deathslingers projectiles.
You can JUST make it in time for a clutch unhook or JUST make enough distance to get hit out the exit gate.
You can avoid certain hits with dead hard with inexperienced killers who don't expect it. You can use the invulnerability at unsafe dropped pallets (basically force the killer to commit and swing at you, DH and then vault the pallet and gain distance).
Getting farmed? Spam shift + E and the killer might hit the unhooker.
Not to mention, it can be used multiple times in a game.
The best thing about DH is that you can go for silly or otherwise risky plays and still have a backup plan. I won't lie, I use it 99% of the time I play survivor. I feel like I play too safe (and boring) without it.
But It's not fair, no... tbh. Feels so bad playing killer and mindgaming only for them to use DH to gain distance. But as survivor it's amazing.
Well in the case of the advanced uses the perk has, I personally see that to be creative and in comparison to the other scenarios fair. But is the perk 100% fair? Not really, not to me anyways. And sometimes that's a reason for people to dislike something or want something changed, since the unfair bits might outweigh the fair ones.
@Creepa99 said:
As a killer main that has dealt with Dead Hard fairly often, I can say that it only extends a chase for a little longer. To counter it just get close wait for them to pop it then hit them. Don't really know what the hype behind it is.
It's mostly the unfair bits like the distance meme and how the perk can avoid several things like Trappers traps, Hags traps, projectiles, etc. Usually when it's mentioned as unfair, these points are brought up. That doesn't mean the points are unreasonable (at least I don't think so), but the distance and correction of mistakes aspect to the perk is why some (like me) dislike it.
That isn't to say I don't know how to counter it, but in some cases you can't.
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@lowiq said:
The way I see it, survivor perks can be split into active / passive. Since they don't have any innate unique ability unlike killer, active perks are things that modify the survivor with an "ability" instead of a passive buff (e.g., Exhaustion Perks, Any Means Necessary, DS, Saboteur).
Similar to most killer abilities, DH situationally has counterplay. Just like how most killer powers have no counterplay in certain situations, DH has no counterplay in certain situations. I think more often than not, DH can be countered if you play around it. There are a lot of situations where you can recognize where survivors won't make it to X even with DH.
It can be annoying when you go against too many "active" perks in one game, but I wouldn't call DH by itself unfair.
And I agree with you on this, certain situations with the perk itself can actually be unfair while others are completely fair. Some argue that DH does take some sort of skill, which it does to some point, but in certain cases it does not... like the distance argument.
@MadLordJack said:
I think Dead Hard is an extremely unfair perk. However, as second chance perks go, it's not the worst, and as much as I hate to say it if all of the second chance perks were to go then so very many players would quit the game. So while I don't think it's fair, I don't think it should be changed. Except perhaps giving it a longer exhaustion period.
Or they could just revert it by to a dodge perk, rather than a dodge + distance perk. The extra exhaustion might be overkill though for specifically deadhard, since than you'd have to argue if the other exhaustion perks deserve the same treatment.
So I don't know, my goal wasn't to get it nerfed anyways, it's just a debate I wanted to bring up since it's interesting to see how people see the perk itself.
@Thatgurl_again said:
Fair, just cause it dont work 50% of the time
Well, for the sake of theory we'll say the perk does work 100% of the time again. What do you think of it then? Is the perk still fair or unfair? Or is it only fair in some cases while others it's not?
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@Johnny_XMan said:
I see a lot of people using the words “correcting a mistake”. Honestly this is where you lose me, because as an avid Dead Hard user and someone who enjoys engaging in chases, sometimes it isn’t correcting a mistake, it is understanding how the perk works and yes extending the chase in some way. Many of the people who do this know that they could extend the chase at the risk of their Ping being on their side.
It is no different than someone holding (99ing) their SB or someone who has viciously or cautiously been looking out for where they could use their Lithe or BL.
Dead Heard’s distance isn’t worth any value if you are a good killer who will not swing. In a dead zone you will be exactly that... dead. You also have to account for the fact that you can’t dash at a curve, so you have to be very specific about when and how you use it.
I understand not liking it but I don’t agree with some of your points.
You don't have to agree with my points, that's fine.
But I still don't see how "correcting a mistake" isn't valid in the argument at hand, since it's what a lot of Survivors use it for to extend chases. I've also debated that using it for distance to extend chases does not take any skill, if it really does not much.
You also can't avoid it all together by not swinging at certain scenarios, they just use it for distance at a safe pace which would've normally gotten them downed and they vault the window or drop the pallet. If they mess up the loop and almost get downed, than they can use it to correct that mistake by simply using DH to make up for the lost distance.
The perk itself is fair in certain scenarios, but it others I don't see it to be fair. Yes in a deadzone it's basically useless, but at certain long loops it can be a nightmare, especially when most Survivors who run it just use it for distance now.
But again, we don't need to see eye to eye on this.
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@dspaceman20 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1665941#Comment_1665941
Yeah I think we have reached an equilibrium in arguing this and now this just a matter of opinion.
Thank you for keeping this discussion civil
No problem.
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@Godot said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1665898#Comment_1665898
To be honest, when it DOESN'T work and they like...Dead Hard right into a wall, that's kind of funny.
Happens a lot more often than people think, considering you can't steer the dash. Some people have actually saved themselves by DHing into the Killer, since you're still invincible during the dash... even when you're not actually dashing at all. Makes no sense tbh, but it's what it's.
@dspaceman20 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1665877#Comment_1665877
I'm probably being the biggest idiot right now but...
In the case your describing i still attribute that to skill. The person was able to use dead hard skillfully in order to make it to a pallet in order to get the stun on the killer.
Follow my thought process for a second.
The person using dead hard was able to accurately predict when the killer would swing, use dead hard for instead making distance and not to prevent them from getting hit, and successfuly made it to the pallet and get the stun.
This plan would have surely back fired if they messed the timing up just a bit. They could have did it too early and wasted a pallet or they could have did it too late and get hit before getting to the pallet or got hit through the pallet.
With all of this, to pull this off consistently in my opinion takes skill.
P.S I would like to exclude niche cases where a person who does pull this off. This doesn't automatically mean they are skillful they just got lucky
I mean yeah if you're talking about timing it when it does apply in a chase than I guess that takes some skill? I'm talking about a case where they DH to a pallet because without that distance they would've been downed. There is no timing, there is no counter, they dash to a pallet for extra distance and get the stun. To me, that is unfair and I disagree it takes any skill.
But I can agree to disagree, we don't need to see eye to eye on it. It doesn't matter at the end of the day anyways.
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@Godot said:
The way I look at Dead Hard is this:
As a Killer, fair, but infuriating if you swing and they time it right.
As a Survivor, unfair, because most of the times it doesn't even work.
I see it work all the time, I think it just doesn't work sometimes in tight areas... for some reason.
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@dspaceman20 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1665806#Comment_1665806
I'm mainly speaking from personal experience here, but I have went against many M1 killers that has timed there hits perfectly to down me and other survivors. This may seem hard to explain with words but maybe a video can convince you. Do you watch otzdarva. He made a video recently where he played pig and the survivors had dead hard. One person was able to use dead hard to make it to a window, but still got down because the otzs timed the hit perfectly to make dead harding to the window a bad play
I'm sorry but I'm bit confused on the second concern. Could you explain more on this?
Well yeah, you can out distance DH if you lunge at the right time. But what I'm referring to is the case where you can't do that because they have enough distance AWAY from you to DH into the pallet or vault, that's what I mean. If the Killer is right behind the Survivor and lunges at them, they'll either hit them or they'll DH into getting hit, since your lunge was farther than their initial distance boost.
Also the 2nd concern is the full comment. I don't understand what you mean by it, so I can't give an example. If you can provide a video, than I'll see what you mean. If it's what I think it's, than we're talking about two different scenarios that can happen in a chase. I'm talking about the case where you can't do anything to prevent it.
@gibblywibblywoo said:
I'm torn on Dead Hard. On one hand its absolute trash if the survivor is in a dead zone.
On the other hand a good survivor will almost never be in a dead zone and in the hands of a good survivor its an absurdly strong perk, at least before you know they have it.
I don't think it really needs nerfs. It's only super strong when combined with other meta perks. And a lot of the time if the survivor tries to actually play skillfully and attempt to dodge at the perfect time it'll just exhaust them on the ground.
Well some people argue that reverting the perk back to its roots would solve the main issue DH poses in a match, since it used to just be a dodge perk but now it's a dodge + distance perk as well. Alone it's manageable, but if everyone uses it than it can be a handful. I didn't even mention if it's with other meta perks as well.
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@dspaceman20 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1665790#Comment_1665790
I'm Sorry if I seem a bit heated in this discussion, but I just want a bit of consistency. I just don't understand why we persecute Dead Hard so much when other perks do strikingly similar things.
As long as it's civil than there's no reason to apologize for something you believe in. You and I might disagree on some points, but that doesn't mean I'll belittle you for it ha ha. It's fine to not agree on some things, that's why we all have opinions.
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@dspaceman20 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1665770#Comment_1665770
From the first part I feel we can agree to disagree
For the second part I feel wraith is not the best example for this. In my experience he has been able to counter it with impeccable timing making it utterly useless. And I believe that's the thing with this perk. Timing is everything. (For me I haven't fully got the timing down.) You have to time things perfectly in order get effective use out of it.
Ok but I fail to really see how any M1 Killer can counter the perk itself if it's used to gain distance to a vault or pallet. That's primarily what I mean when I mention that scenario, that the distance thing for the perk really does cause issues. It can actually fix a chase or even extend one with not much effort.
I also don't really see what you need to time when you use the perk, if the Killer is only a few meters behind you and you know you won't make the full loop without it, than what're you really timing to get to the other side of the vault or pallet? That's what's confusing me when you mention timing, since you can't really time a straight shot to those two things, you just get there regardless.
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@Clockso said:
The Perk alone is pretty balanced; A small half a second dash that protects you from damage if timed properly (and if not goofed by dedicated servers) or can be used for distance.
while it looks extremely BS for someone to use it to reach a pallet or window that otherwise couldn't be reached, it's not the end of the world, you can still try to mindgame and down the survivor, HOWEVER while I don't consider the perk alone Overpowered I do consider it extremely overkill for all 4 survivors who loop well enough to run it.
I consider the perk to be a training wheel to cover up for mistakes, however when you rarely make a mistake it just becomes overkill, 4 average lets say 300 hour survivors running the perk will help them in the long run but as I said a good survivor doesn't need the perk, but people will still use it to win and I don't blame them, "Perk shaming" shouldn't be a thing cuz it makes me win like i'm not gonna run any means necessary and for the people (both are very good perks mind you) but they use 50% of my perks and aren't as good as dead hard which uses 25% of my build.
I mean everyone is free to use what the game provides, it's the community that decides if it's fair or unfair. Some people do perk shame which by all means is not really ok, but people can still make points as to why they dislike something or want something changed.
As for the perk itself, if it's just one player using it than it isn't really a big deal, even if they're extremely good with or without it. But if a full team uses it with other meta perks, than that'll really cause some trouble. But like before, it really just depends on WHAT it's being used for that makes it fair or unfair. That's why I can respect someone with the perk who pulls of complex loops that they could mess up, but I don't really consider the DH for Distance meme to be fair, since there's nothing you can do about that if you're not someone who can punish it.
@ClickyClicky said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1665641#Comment_1665641
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/42P86GPC0VFO/bias.jpg
lol speak of the devil. Just saw this and had to share.
Yeah it's interesting how everyone is so focused on how Undying/Ruin needs to be nerfed because it's so popular yet we've just "accepted" these kind of combos.
They can't be picked up, they can't be slugged. Even outside of the 1 self-pickup part of the perk, the faster recovery itself is extremely powerful and renders slugging for pressure mostly redundant.
It's funny because at one point in this game there was a gen 90% complete. Someone gets unhooked before I've even taken 5 steps away by the person with BT. Now I know I can't hit them because they'll have BT, I wanted to keep them off the gen they had been working on near them but I need to hit them to get BT out of the way, and then if I chased them I can't pick them up, if I slug them they get up anyway.
So I just left them and surrendered the generator to them. Chased the other guy instead. No matter what I did the survivor had a way out.
I know people get fussy over any accusations of bias but when one side often has to have commonly used perks changed and the other side is allowed to keep the same meta for years it's easy to see why these kind of feelings crop up.
Tbf, I don't think anyone has accepted the DS + Unbreakable combo. But that's another problem entirely...
@dspaceman20 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1665740#Comment_1665740
Exactly all of these perks do the same thing in extending chases, like dead hard. So to argue that dead hard is unfair because its a chase extender not a sufficient argument.
I think he means that when you pair it with the already known issues it brings, than that's a recipe for disaster. The perk itself is manageable albeit annoying, but when mixed with other perks can cause issues. That's all DH is anyways at the end of the day, it's just a "helper perk" that can add to other perks that a lot of people don't like.
That could be why the DH for Distance meme started, but I'd like to think it was started just because it's not really fair in a lot of cases.
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@xEa said:
I think the effect of Dead Hard is a little bit to powerful.
Fine with gaining Distance but i think they should remove the invinciblity of it.
Possible. I think having it just be a dodge perk would suffice, since the distance thing is what really bothers players the most.
@Unifall said:
I love me some dead hard. Its one of the perks that goes in all my builds. As someone who enjoys the chase it has gotten me out of alot of situations were I would have been downed. Whether the perk is unfair or not I do not know. But you bring interesting points i do agree on. In my opinion its one of the perks that I can fully rely on. Lithe requires a vault, BL requires high ground, SB forces me to walk to all my gens and well i don't consider Head on a perk ill rely on in a chase. Thats just me tho.
Well like many including myself have said, it really just depends on what the perk is used for, if it's paired with a build, what Killer is facing it, the loop they're at, etc. The perk can either be underwhelming in certain cases like being out in the open or being at small loops or it can be overwhelming when used at long loops to DH to vaults or pallets or it can be overwhelming when used in complex loops or saves, but at least then it does take some skill to think that quickly with the perk.
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@dspaceman20 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1665584#Comment_1665584
I can definitely see what you mean but I wanna make a point to say that it has to be used effectively. Sure I may seems that dead harding for distance may take no skill and anyone can do it sure, but that does not mean that they did it effectively. If I'm out in the open and use dead hard i didn't use it effectively. At most it only bought me a 2 seconds. Using it effectively to get to a pallet does take skill if you are able to time it correctly (Which some people have not got the timing down)
Also forgive me but to say that is not fair because most killers can’t do nothing about it seems a bit hyperbolic to me. Could you provide some examples of how?
I just don't really see how DHing to a window or pallet takes much skill. If I said it did, it isn't much since anyone can do it. If you're out in the open with DH as a usable perk, you can't effectively use it at all, so I don't really understand what you mean by that either.
As for an example, just pick any M1 Killer that can't dash forward like Nurse, Spirit, or Demo to name a few. If I was The Wraith and got you to make a mistake at a loop which would've gotten you downed, but you just DH'ed to a pallet or window because I couldn't immediately down you, is that fair? To me it isn't, nor did it really take much timing to do it. Of course it does end the loop entirely, but the Survivor at least go away with it and could continue the chase with a potentially stronger loop.
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@Dwinchester said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1665598#Comment_1665598
I think you have it backwards there. The survivor doesnt get the fatigue, killer does. So killer is in chase, survivor times it right, he gets the invincibility frames, but no distance, and killer gets a stun.
There would still be a mind game at the pallet, because if killer doesnt swing, the survivor makes it, but it wouldnt be free distance.
Oh I see, than it'd just be a dodge perk like it originally was in the first place. That'd at least be more reasonable than it being a dodge and distance perk, which would prevent one of the major issues people have with it anyways.
@ClickyClicky said:
To me it's the most unfun thing in the entire game.
DH like a lot of perks depends where it is used. In the middle of a dead zone it's not a major problem, using it for distance to reach an extremely strong window however and it's insanely powerful and can buy the team so much time. That's not even mentioning those times where you mindgame a survivor, close the gap and they tap E to undo it.
It's essentially a third health state when used correctly. In fact to be honest seeing how often this gets used for distance it's not that all that different to old Mettle of Man. You don't see it visually but it's an artificial chase extender which requires very little skill.
In a sense it's like a third health state yeah, just not literally like you said. But I would also like to say it isn't really like MoM, since MoM was more-so a endgame perk that gave the Survivor a free escape if the gates were open, making it impossible to down them at the end. Even mid-game it was a head-ache. You didn't even need to think ahead to use it, it was a passive perk that gave tokens when hit, so in a way DH at least takes some common sense to use, while MoM didn't take any at all.
Also yeah, DH itself really just depends on the situation it's in. If it's to gain distance with no downside than yes, in my opinion that's unfair. If it's used in a complex save or tricky loop than it took skill to actually devise that, so that would be fair since they could mess up the save or loop, making it really temperamental. If it's in a deadzone than the perk is basically useless... So yeah...
@malloymk said:
Dead Hard is one of the more OP perks in the game. It's just been in the game long enough for people to accept. It always blew my mind that people lost their minds over original Mettle of Man when it was a one timr only use perk with an aura reading down side. Dead Hard can be used at least 3 times per match and extends chases big time. Even DS and unbreakable can only be used once.
Like many of the stronger survivor perks it's really more of the fact that multiple survivors can use these perks that creates the issue. If one guy has Dead Hard it's not that big of an issue. If 3 or 4 have it? Different story. Same with the other strong perks.
They really need a perk budget of $12. Depending on usage you'd have a list of $5 perks (DH, DS, Unbreakable), $4 perks (spine chill, we'll live forever, etc). This would lower the amount of second chances (there would still be some). It would also lead to more perk variety.
But they'll never implement that. So just be ready to go against multiple DH, DS, Unbreakable, etc.
I don't really understand what you mean by that proposal, even if I did it isn't really necessary anyways since just reverting the perk back to a dodge perk is good enough. Right now it's a dodge + distance perk, which is where the main issue people have with it come to light.
As for the MoM argument, MoM was by all means busted. You didn't even have to think to use it, it passively gave tokens and a free health state after 3 hits, which is where the main issue in mid to end game comes in. If you have MoM on at a gate, you're free. Sure DH is unfair in specific scenarios, but any scenario with MoM was unfair to begin with.
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@APoipleTurtle said:
I'm torn. I don't specifically see Dead Hard as an unfair perk, but it feels frustrating to play against a survivor team when 3-4 of them have it (same feeling as with Borrowed Time, Unbreakable, or Sprint Burst). Killers with fatigue times or resource management are also more harshly punished by Dead Hard (such as Nurse, Legion, Deathslinger, and Trapper to name a few).
I do strongly agree that I dislike how easily DH can rectify survivor mistakes at many loops. I guess I'd really like to see DH return to its roots as a "dodge" perk and made less effective as a distance perk.
Right, since it originally was just about dodging and not gaining distance to extend loops. You can also think some scenarios with it are unfair like it being paired with other perks or the DH for Distance meme being unfair as well. As discussed in this post, it's come to a point where we mostly agree that certain scenarios with the perk is fair, while others are not.
@OniWantsYourMacaroni said:
I wouldn't really call it unfair but it does feel pretty bad when you've made a great and difficult play but the survivor just had to press a button.
Right, it's hard to really say it's unfair overall, it's definitely unfair in some situations where you can't prevent or counter it, like the DH for Distance meme as an example.
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@Dwinchester said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/196540/dead-hard-fair-or-unfair
Heres how I look at any perk in this game. Would it be op if the other side had it? In the case of dead hard, if after 30 seconds of chase, the killer had a lunge that was twice the normal distance and had a 40 second cooldown, would that be fair? No, no it wouldn't.
It's the distance that's the problem, because it's a very abusable perk. I would change it to no distance gained, but a nurse style fatigue if killer swings and misses. That would put skill back into it, rather than a loop extender.
I suppose if a fatigue was added it would add some level of complex thinking to it, but than the perk would be useless if the fatigue is too long or the Killer doesn't swing at all. If the fatigue is short enough to allow someone to DH into a window or pallet, than I guess it'd still be useable? But in a lot of other complex scenarios it would make it even harder to use, which would make it more prone to be used for distance.
As for the Killer interpretation of the perk, I don't really see the point in it. Having a double lunge after 30 seconds of a chase would give every Killer the same lunge as Myers in Tier lll, that'd be busted. In the case of DH, it's not really the same thing. A lunge is a key mechanic for a Killer to use in a chase, while DH is just a perk that can extend a chase, it's not a core point to a Survivors abilities like the lunge is for Killer. I see what you meant by the example, but it isn't really the same thing.
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@dspaceman20 said:
Before I give my opinion i feel its best to determine what is considered fair or unfair in this game that will help things a lot. In my opinion what makes things unfair is that something has little to no counterplay in something.
With that out of the way in my opinion Dead Hard is fair perk. Annoying sure, but fair.
I believe that, to a certain extent, it takes skill to use dead hard EFFECTIVELY. In my opinion a player has skill if they are able to use a perk for more than its original intentions. The original intentions for the perk is to avoid taking hits when injured to dash forward for a small frame. However others are going above and beyond and using it for more then its original purpose, which is to use the extra distance not to avoid taking a hit but to make it to a pallet or window (albeit with great timing to pull it off effectively). To be able to have the thinking and ingenuity to get even more out of a perk to benefit you, means you're skilled.
First, as I said before I personally don't think it takes much skill to dash forward to a pallet or vault. If we're talking loop extension when the Survivor already effectively looped the Killer or for a complex use like a save or what-not than yeah, it does take some skill to think about when it's useful in what scenario.
But for other scenarios like the DH for Distance meme, I don't really consider that to take a lot of skill. And in my opinion, I don't think it's fair either because there's nothing MOST Killers can do about it. You can argue it does take some skill yeah, but I personally don't think that skill cap is very high. It's more-so just common sense that the perk will give you enough distance to a vault or pallet when pressed, it doesn't really take much... well... skill to do that, at least not in my opinion anyways.
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@OmegaXII said:
If the users are smart, there is literally no counter to it. However, the same can be said to every exhaustion perks.
As killer, you cannot really counter exhaustion perks unless you're top tier killer, but they still extends the chase and requires no effort from the user, with dead hard as the most skillful one among all the exhaustion perks. You cannot prevent the perks from activating.
Also, DH is free outplay when used against nurse and blight. You can't really bait it out as you don't always have another blink/rush available.
I personally think exhaustion should have some sort of debuff, not just a form of cooldown for a collection of perks. For example, slower running speed, slower gen repair, etc..
Well you can't prevent their activation but you can actually counter them when given the right scenarios. For example, Balanced Landing can actually be prevented if you're right behind the Survivor that's about to drop down. By lunging during the drop, you gain enough distance to hit them before the perks speed boost kicks in. So in other words, if they're healthy you "prevented" their escape from a hit and when injured you prevented the perks use all together.
For Dead Hard you can't really prevent its activation (except when the perk just doesn't work), but rather you predict when it's used and counter it as such. As for Sprint Burst it already has it's own counter, which prevents a user from running if they want to preserve it. Of course some Survivors keep it around 80% to use it in a chase, but if they want to do gens they have to let the exhaustion run out... so it's a double edged sword.
As for a debuff that's debatable, it really depends on which perks we're talking about and certain knowledge we already know about them and their counters. These perks can be counter, it just depends on what scenario you're in. This means there isn't a counter that can be used on them indefinitely, but rather there are counters for specific cases they're used in.
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@Mister_xD said:
i think Dead Hard is one of the prime examples of a perk that can be utterly useless in the wrong and extremely oppressive in the right hands.
the most annoying / unfair part about it imo is the famous "Dead Hard for distance", which basically lets the survivor get away with greedy plays by letting them reach windows / pallets they, under normal circumstances, would not have reached.
on top of that, Dead Hard is the only Survivor exhaustion perk that can be triggered at will, there is basically no requirement that has to be met (okay they gotta be injured, but unless its a oneshot killer that hasnt hooked you yet (cause you're injured after a hook and then its on you whether you want to heal and risk not getting it or whether you want to stay injured to have access to it) that is always going to be given throughout chases). every other Exhaustion Perk has clear circumstances that need to be met (e.g. SB only works at the start of the chase + only if the survivor took it slow throughout the trial, Lithe forces them to fastvault sthg and BL only works after dropping down sthg) in order for it to go off, DH is always there, activatable whenever the survivor happens to need it.
its not bound to "avoiding a killers attack", it is just as much useful for getting that tiny bif of distance on the killer to further extend loops.
plus it basically just hardcounters Trapper and Nurse - and with the current bug also Deathslinger, which gave it the quite fitting nickname "E to outplay".
It really depends on the specific scenario we're talking about yeah. In some cases it can be basically useless in open areas with nothing around, while in other scenarios it can get a tricky save, extend a tricky loop, or even (in the case for Dead Hard for Distance) give a arguable undeserved extension to a loop that someone messed up or wouldn't have been able to use on their own.
Is it unfair though? Hard to say. It really just depends on what's used for, since it can be (like you said) extremely oppressive or extremely underwhelming. I didn't even mention the other part where other perks work with DH itself, making it even more tricky to discuss since it's by all means a "helper perk"
@dugman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1665343#Comment_1665343
I think you might be overestimating the average player's ability to use Dead Hard properly. There are a lot of players who for instance only try to use it to dodge attacks, which is a mistake unless you're timing is really exceptional. The better use of it is to get a bit of extra distance in a chase to ensure you get to a pallet in a close call for instance. And if you use it too early in a chase for distance it might backfire, you want to use it at the last moment but soon enough that there's no chance of getting hit as you do the drop or vault. So knowing when to time it involves properly gauging the timing on both your path and the killer's path in a loop, and looping and knowing proper pathing is one of the things that I think is one of the higher skill cap aspects of this game. (Knowing the intricacies of specific tiles for loops is still one of my weak areas at least.)
Basically I think Dead Hard is a skill enhancer in that sense. An average player will probably only get average results out of it, an excellent player can get excellent results out of it. Compare that to, for instance, Decisive Strike which really only requires you to be able to hit the skill check involved to get value from it, or Borrowed Time which pretty much works passively while you rescue someone. Dead Hard is in contrast something you actually have to time correctly or it's pretty worthless.
Perhaps, but I still only consider the level of skill in terms of that scenario to not really be that high. If we're talking more complex saves, loops, or jukes than the skill cap does increase. It really just depends on what the perk is being used it, rather than what the perk is primarily used for right now.
It really is by all means a double edged sword, it can help but it can also harm the Survivor as well. It really just depends on what it's being used for and who's using it. But for the sake of this proposal, I can agree it does take some knowledge to gauge when to use it properly, I just don't think it takes as much knowledge as you suggest.
@Kebek said:
Tbh DH is one of the second chance perk I don't mind. Yes it can be very strong and in some cases even game losing to erase a mistake leading into critical down but that's (at least for me) not even half as annoying as other second chance perks like DS, BT, Unbreakable etc.
I like the skillful uses about it, you can do some very nice mindgames with it and use it in creative ways. Yes, dead harding for distance is braindead and cheap but some killer can deal with it. Other exhaustion perks can erase mistakes without much survivor imput as well, that's their core design.
I think it doesn't need changes, it's really cool perk that can (as one of the very few) be used skillfully which is something I support. There are conditions to it and downsides as well so if anything, more viable perks that cause exhaustion should be added so people who dislike them can counter them.
I don't think it needs changes either, in-fact I was against it being changed all together in the initial post. But yeah, it's a complex discussion when we take into account what perks DH is paired with, the scenario it's in, what Killers can't avoid it, even the loops themselves if we're talking what the perk is primarily used for atm.
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@Sunbreaker7 said:
I have seen people pull some amazing hook saves comboed with some other useful perks with it that has resulted in an amazing defeat for me to which I can only raise my hat to. I myself have learned from these moves and applied them myself in my own survivor matches and seen its great potential over and over again. It's not unfair, you just need to learn who has it and next time predict it to make them waste it and then simply down them. If you know they have it, there's very little they can do to avoid your M1 really.
It's not a "get free out of chase" perk. Not even close. People fail with it constantly, even pros.
This may be true, but what about the other scenarios that involve distance to windows or pallets? I can of course agree that the perk itself involves a certain level of skill and common sense for saves, tricky loops, and jukes.
Perhaps I focused too much on the specific scenario I disliked and missed other important things to add to the post itself. Since Dead Hard is pretty complex in terms of which is fair and which is not when you involve different scenarios and perks as well. I'll definitely be sure to edit that in above, since I suppose I was blinded by the main point I brought up.
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@SpaceCoconut said:
I actually had a scenario where a single dead hard turned the game around and was very demoralizing to say the least after fighting through all of the other meta perks.
It was during a stream so I'll have to find the match, but I think this is a good discussion to have since I have an example for it's use.
Is it unfair?
I'm not so sure.
The problem isn't that Dead Hard can be used for distance or erase a mistake, it's that Survivors have several perks that erase mistakes or can be used "offensively" against the Killer's objective.
The issue comes down to time and efficiency for the killer, so any perk that takes time away from the killer allowing Survivors to spend more uninterrupted time on gens can become very problematic when used in conjunction.
Which is exactly why the Survivor meta is the way it is right now.
Sounds like you wrote my next video for me lol
That's actually a very good point, I didn't really think about how the perk itself can also cause issues when paired with other perks. It seems so obvious too, perhaps I wasn't really thinking about that and rather the scenario I focused on as a whole.
Please do bring the video in this post, it would actually bring up more interesting discussions on the perk itself and even the meta as a whole.
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@jackal470 said:
I personally don't use DH anymore since crossplay was added I can't get the timing right and I'm exhausted on the ground...lag or whatever has changed. I do think it's fair, I just can't make it work properly and to the people who can "props." I like the idea of the perk and don't think it needs to be touched, although it would be nice if it was usable again atleast in my case
I suppose this is why "Dead Hard for Distance" has become more prominent, since the perk itself is still having issues in specific scenarios that involve a juke or loop. But I can see what you mean by not using it outside of the issue I brought up, since it's hard to get the new timing down at more tricky loops.
@RaSavage42 said:
I tend to think it's fair...
1) To use it the survivor has to be injured... either staying injured or using DH as a back up
2) The distance gained is minimal compared to the other Exhaustion perks (except for Head-On)
3) Gives the survivor/killer interaction more skill rather then loop 3x drop pallet move on (or window)
4) Allows pathing to be unique rather then doing the same things at every loop
I can agree with points 1, 2, and 4, but 3 is arguable. The main scenario I brought up was the Dead Hard for distance one, but I can see what you mean in terms of other scenarios it's used as well. But for the one I bring up, there's no downside to using the perk, no counter, it cannot be avoided if the Survivor knows they'll reach a window or pallet after a mess up or for an extended chase.
These are also good points, but in terms of which scenario we're talking about is where it gets muddy. In some cases yes it's fair, it does take skill to use in spots outside of distance like juking or tricky loops, but in the case of pressing a button to get to a window or pallet is where I personally don't see the skill or fairness in. There are other scenarios that involve that as well, but I'm primarily just talking about the meme itself that the perk is attached to.
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@dugman said:
Dead Hard is a really good perk but I think it's a fair one. Good timing of Dead Hard in a chase is definitely a skill, it's not something you just spam and get value out of it. It's popular because really good survivors know when to use it and when not to. As a killer if someone uses Dead Hard to beat me in a chase to a pallet or to dodge an attack I don't think "Dead Hard OP", I think "ah well, that guy made a good play".
I personally disagree with this, so allow me to explain.
I don't really think it takes skill to know you'll make it to a pallet or window, especially when it's a straight shot. I see what you mean by the timing is what requires skill, not the button press, but I just don't really see how knowing when to press a button to avoid getting downed really requires any skill to begin with.
I don't want to sound like it takes no skill at all, it definitely does take some knowledge to know that you'll make it to that pallet with DH, but it's just something that anyone could figure out if they know what the perk does. If you're faced with a scenario that allowed you to get to a vault or pallet with no downside, wouldn't you obviously take it? Since most players who use the perk already know that if the loop is long than they can avoid a mistake by simply facing towards the pallet, using DH, and escaping the down all together.
To say skill is involved at all is... arguable, I'd say it's just common sense that allows players to figure this out early on. Skill is more-so something that's contributed towards your looping skills or overall knowledge of the Killer or even specific Killers and how they play. I don't personally agree that any skill is involved in Dead Hard, at least not in the scenario's I gave in the initial post. Of course it takes some advanced knowledge on when to use it in a more tricky loop, but the perk itself is only really an addition to someones looping potential.
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@Kumnut768 said:
i would say in most circumstances its annoying but not that impactful however there are times it can lose you the game just by the single press of a button preventing a down so im still not a fan of dh but i get why people like using it
Right, it's kind of like why people use DS or Adrenaline or BT. They have their respective uses and some of them arguable have little downsides to them at all.
In the case of Dead Hard, it's not as impactful as some other perks like DS or Adrenaline, but in the right cases it can definitely lose you the game depending on who's doing it, how good they're, etc. It can even make the game more difficult if multiple people use it who're not that good at looping, since that added time really does add up to a match.
When we're talking "is it fair or not" it's hard to say since it really depends on what scenario we're talking about.
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The entire conversation behind DS and PH is Pandora's Box tbh.
It's hard to really discuss an issue like this without one or two fights breaking out, but I still hope people will try to if they're willing to be civil about it. Or don't... idk.
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@Xbob42 said:
Apparently out of all the red rank strats, a lot of survivors haven't heard of this titanbrain counter to pop: If the killer pops your gen, don't just tap it immediately. I've never ran corrupt and don't even have it unlocked, but pop I ran until Undying came out and I can tell you there's no sight sweeter than popping a gen and instantly seeing it tapped when the survivors are still in danger. You're literally letting me pop it again. Remember, a killer can't kick a regressing gen.
So if you get popped, hide for a second, make sure the killer actually goes away, and when you've got the all-clear, you can get back on it. If the killer immediately enters another chase, or worse, hooks right next to the gen and pops, BE PATIENT. Don't just unhook and get back on the gen, don't just tap it and hide again. If they have another pop ready, you want them to come to this gen, see it's regressing, and leave. Pop's on a timer so they're not gonna stick around for too long. Once they leave, you're almost always in the clear, and if they fake this out even once, then you know to just move on to another gen.
Unless you think no one will be around for a while, then tapping and hiding is fine, since it's still overall better than regressing for a really long time. Basically you have to observe how the killer plays and remember the limitations of killer interactions with generators. You're still going to have to deal with pops, but you'll do significantly less damage to your chances of survival if you assess the situation first before acting.
You can also split up and do gens, assuming enough people are alive. That's the counter to like, literally every killer and every perk in the game. That kind of split gen pressure is agonizing as a killer. A little harder with randoms, but you'd be surprised how much people will obey a simple pointing emote.
As for corrupt, going full immersive is a very easy counter assuming you're not awful at hiding. Like I said, I don't have it, but in general I have a ton of trouble finding survivors who are playing stealthy, doubly so when a ticking clock is adding pressure to get anything done. I imagine corrupt would just turn me into a potato who chokes at the early game.
Unfortunately, some players do not follow this counter despite it only taking some patience or tactical thinking. I suppose some players are just not patient enough to wait or don't want to move to another location. They could even tap the gen if they really want to and move to another gen, that's at least more effective than trying to work on the same gen the Killer will continuously pop until it's dead.
And yeah, hiding for the 2 minutes Corrupt is up is basically the hard counter to that perk. Even if the team doesn't do that they could still go on the opposite side of the map during their chase so the other Survivors work on the 4 available gens on the other side.
@DaKnight said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1634840#Comment_1634840
I think corrupt is pretty fair. Against good teams, corrupt is only going to buy you like ~30 seconds. I have stopped running it on the majority of my killers just because it has such little impact against meta survivors.
Sometimes at rank 1-2 you will still get immersed potato's who will mess around while corrupt is active; which is why it can be so effective. But honestly you don't perks against those types of survivors. You need perks against the teams that all spawn in, hit shift, and hold W to the nearest generator. Corrupt or not, within 30 seconds 3-4 survivors are all on a gen. So all it is buying you is the zoning, and a tiny bit of slowdown for an entire perk slot.
Pop I think is fine too. It lets you stomp on players worse than yourself but against a similarly skilled SWF / Genrush team it honestly does very little. If you watch the 15k DBD tournament, many killers were using things like NOED / Rancor / Devour / etc in place of regression perks. I pretty much only use it with Tinkerer so I can get multiple procs off the same gen.
Well Corrupt at this point is more-so a counter to casual or standard teams, if you're actively seeking coordinated teams than you'd obviously move onto something that's more effective. But here's the issue, I personally disagree with the tournament argument because DBD isn't always in a "tournament mood". By that I mean the most common teams you'll come across is either the casual teams or the standard/decent teams. If every Killer played every match like it was a tournament than things would get boring fast, since there are plenty of perks that'll work against those teams while DESTROYING other teams that're just playing for fun.
Sometimes the community forgets that this is just a party game at heart, having it in a tournament setting is, at least to me, something that isn't there right now. As much as some players want to make it into that, it really isn't at that point right now. Of course anyone can feel free to argue that it's, but I personally don't think it's. Obviously players can play however they want and play as hard as they want, but not many players are keen on that mindset, especially the majority of DBD.
I guess my point is, while Corrupt isn't the "top-tier" option for a serious match, it's indeed something that most people use in the meta for the most common teams that show up, that being casuals or standard/decent teams. If it's a coordinated team than they'll have no issue working around both these perks, yet the Killer isn't probably playing 100% optimally if they're running corrupt or even Pop in the first place.
Of course though it's good to be informed of better options and playstyles, Corrupt is more-so just a casual approach to the game rather than a serious one.
@magicmaster2020 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1634397#Comment_1634397
Well that really sucks then. I wish I could find a way to help you. I hope things get fixed soon
I'm sure they will, they probably already have and I'm unaware of the fix. Either way, It'll work eventually.
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@noctis129 said:
I think everything in the game is fair. It's the players that are unfair.
Perhaps it's the players that make them unfair?...
Yeah... I don't know about that... I think it's just more-so about how the perks work and what they do that make people discuss about them. Perks are important in the trial, but sometimes people forget that they're only bonuses to the gameplay. Of course some Killers really DO need the extra help though.
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@azame said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1634422#Comment_1634422
I rather not because the combo definitely brings the worst out of people atleast when discussing it. The combo is strong and it synergizes well. This divides the community between those who hate it and those who defend it. This whole thread could become hostile.
Exactly the combo is a combo when corrupt is done. It's just pop. But its just like DS/UB when one is gone it relies on the other and stops being such a combo so it has similarities.
I agree with that, but the problem is in 2 minutes if you are a good killer you can get major pressure and get gens close to a stop. Gens are boring to do so thst doesnt help.
Well yeah, that's kind of why I even brought it up. Even discussing it can cause in-fighting, so it's best not to mention it outside of references.
And yeah, in 2 minutes a good Killer can gain major pressure regardless if the perk is active or not, I guess people just see it differently though. Which is ok, not everyone needs to agree on something.
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@Raven014 said:
One perk deactivates after a couple minutes, and another is only as good as you are. I think they are fair.
Well that's the mindset I have too, but I guess some people see it differently. Either for specific reasons or even sometimes... others... reasons...
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@Ghostwithaface said:
All corrupt really does is put survivors and killers on the same level at the start of the game. Killer has to go around and find their objective. Survivors who often spawn on top of gens, now have to do the same thing as the killer. Go around the map and find their objective, rather than doing it right away. That and corrupt has no value if the survivors can successfully hide from the killer for 2 minutes, leading to zero hooks for the killer. Which after 2 minutes, the only perk that has any value anymore is pop. Which corrupt also just delays the survivors doing their objective, by having to walk over to a different part of the map, it doesn't really slow down gens at all by it's self. Pop you have to find a survivor, down them, hook them and finally walk around to find a gen that is worth kicking and not one that barely has any progress to get the most out of it. Pop, bbq and thrilling of some of the best design perks in the game. For you have to do your objective successfully, in other to get a benefit out of it.
Now i'm sure someone will go lol this combo is toxic without adding any meaning to what makes it toxic or why. Which Toxic is really just a overused word, that really doesn't add much value to this topic.
Now we also need to take into account the different killers. Most are 115% and lack mobility, while some rather large maps exist. Not to forget there are certain killers that need time to set up, trapper, hag to name two. So on larger maps, these killers who lack mobility suffer more on larger maps than killers with mobility. Which is why mobility killers are normally the strongest in the game, due to being able to go quickly from point a to point b quickly, to drive survivors off of gens and/or down them quickly. So in the case of bad rng, set up killers or these who lack mobility, are going to need a bit of extra help on these larger maps. Not just at the start but also later on, when they need to maintain control over very important gens if they want to win. Since kicking a gen does jack on it's own and more experience survivors tend to be more bolder, will work on gens injured, who will wait until the killer leaves and than start working on the gen again that was just kicked. While with pop, you can always ensure you will remove some progress on a gen and help to maintain it. That and survivors tapping a gen can work in your favor, if someone goes down quickly again, to a gen that had 75% progress but now has only 50% due to being popped, than was tap or work on again for a few seconds. With it now going down to around 25% progress, thanks to moves by survivors that played in your favor. Which can allow this killer who lacks mobility, to have a chance at apply pressure where it's needed most, in an area they can control. For pop is a very consistence slow down that works if the killer has skill and can end chases quickly. For pop is worthless if you get loop for five chases.
Which surge can hit up to three gens but that is only in the most ideal case, that and the regress on the gen is spread out, so in the most idea case it would be 24%, slightly less than pop. Yet it only works on basic attacks, making it use limited due to some killers like Oni having a powerful m2 ability they want to make use of, making pop the more consistence slow down perk for them. While surge also has a limited range, it's rather possible a survivor might lead you away from a gen or they go down slightly out of range of a gen, making surge the less consistence slow down. On larger maps surge limited range makes it even worst as a slow down perk, sure on small maps like the game it might work super well but you can't always be sure rng will be in your favor. For even if you do well enough, you might not get surge's effect. While pop, you hook someone, bbq you hook someone, thrilling you pick up the down person and you will always be rewarded for your efforts [in the case of pop and bbq, long as you don't get blinded, pallet slam, ect ect]. Which is why pop is a favorite slow down on many killers. It's due to consistency and can work well on most killers, that and it also the feel good feeling of being rewarded for your efforts. That and a three gen is not as powerful, without some sort of slow down, to help maintain it. Which is where pop becomes the ideal perk for.
That and why run this combo? Well pop is great for three gens and on certain maps, that is how you win. Three gen due to the design of it. Call three gens boring or whatever but this fault is due to the map design. With the map often being large as well to get from one side to the other. If you have corrupt up, you could always go and protect the side that is the better three gen, rather than going well time to protect the worst gen for by the time I got over to the other side, they already pop a gen. While pop helps with the mid to late game, to help you win. That and on some maps like haddonfield will sometimes have gens so spread out, there is no such thing as a three gen to killers who lack mobility and killers with out mobility will need all the help they can get due to poor rng. For that another thing, rng. You have no idea what the rng will be like. You could get a map with lots of things to hide behind or duck behind, ideal for ghostface but sounds like a nightmare for huntress. While you could get on a map with little to no cover or anythings to duck or hide behind, sounds like a dream come true for huntress but a nightmare for ghostface. Which all of this is before you factor in not knowing who you are going to go up against. Sure you might go up against newbies or you might go up against harden survivors. You can't really say for sure, while pop and corrupt tends to be overall a rather consistence combo, no matter who you are facing and can help combat bad rng a bit. If you are going against tough survivors, you brought a good perk combo that can help you out. If you are facing newbies, well if the game is going in your favor massively can always ease up on them a bit or simply give the last person hatch.
Now lets look at certain killers like Myers. Myers early game might as well not exist. He needs to go towards survivors and stalk them to get out of tier one. Which is why corrupt is helpful on him, for it gives Myers the time to get the ball rolling. That and good survivors can deny Myers stalk for as long as possible [same can be said for Oni to be fair]. Myers might have to waste alot of time just to get the ball rolling for him, to make up for his weak early game. That and Myers once he does get his power, is still a killer you can loop like any other, which you can also lessen the effect of his tier 3 ability by spreading out against him. That and well it just makes sense to take corrupt on Myers to make up for his weak early game and combing it with pop also makes good sense on Myers, for if he can one hit down a survivor, he can also get a easy pop out of it. Maybe two or more downs in ideal cases. IN less ideal cases, only a single down, which Myers tier 3s are limited, so if you can always make sure to get a little extra value out of them by using say pop, well sounds like a good idea. That and Myers suffers greatly on larger maps, for he starts out at 105% movement speed, has to waste time getting out of tier 1 by finding and stalking a survivor. So he might need all the help he can get, in order to make sure he stands a chance and doesn't get screwed over royally by bad rng.
Now lets look at Freddy. Corrupt gives him time for his teleport to be ready and survivors to enter dream state, where he can finally start using his snares against survivors. It simply lets Freddy deny the survivors just long enough for things to slowly turn towards his favor as survivor start falling asleep and depending on Freddy's add ons, survivors being asleep might lead to extra slow down. Which Pop is more powerful on Freddy than other killers like say Myers for a simple reason. Freddy has mobility. Combo that with something like thrilling to know which gen is being worked on and Freddy can have a very good idea of where he needs to go and which gen needs to pop. For against a killer that lacks mobility, you might be able to get a gen done before they could make it to your side of the map. While Freddy can teleport straight towards the gen and pop it right away, unless the survivors are super close to getting it done, Freddy can easily deny survivors the chance of finishing a gen thanks to mobility. All of these perks, simply work wonderful on Freddy, making a strong killer even stronger.
Do you always needs corrupt and pop to win? No you can easily make due with one or the other, yes it's possible to win games without any slow downs. Yet the reason it's a popular combo, is due to it working very well together and can work reasonable well on most if not all maps in the game, along with it being a good combo on many killers. Basically it's the same reason you use a water type pokemon against the rock type gym, it just makes logical sense to do that, since it works in your favor.
A very good analysis into the combo itself. To keep things short, yes Corrupt & Pop have their uses in their own scenarios like the maps you get, the Killers you're on, the team you're facing, etc. But the point is that for some Killers it's definitely helpful due to set ups or what have you, while for other Killers it can be MORE beneficial due to mobility and what not.
But is the combo required to win? No, it's just extremely helpful for Killers that REALLY do need it, while also having benefits for Killers that DON'T need it but gain bonuses or faster start ups from it.
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@th3 said:
when I play survivor I don’t really mind both of those perks. It’s more frustrating when my team just feeds the killer pops.
when I play killer I’ve switched from using pop as I feel like it makes me play less optimally, I don’t exert enough pressure on gens cause I’m relying on my 25% regression. It’s generally more fun to overwhelm the survivors with pressure rather than stick to kicking gens cause that doesn’t feel as rewarding.
Well to be fair it isn't unreasonable to use Corrupt & Pop on Killers that really need it. I for one use Corrupt on Myers since Tier l is naturally slow, so it's good to get to Tier ll without a big risk involved with it. Sometimes I use it on Wraith because being a pure M1 Killer can be difficult at Rank 1, especially against a good team. Sometimes I use both perks on low-tier Killers like that, but sometimes I don't.
It really just depends on what YOU see as reasonable, if you can do fine without it than I don't see the harm in not using it. It's actually a good thing to go outside the norms of the meta, as staying with the same things can be... stale.
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@azame said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1634400#Comment_1634400
Yeah I agree they both have their issues I personally dont mind them either side its fair game. I dont want to start an argument either so I'll stop mentioning DS/UB. Without a proper way to stop early game gens I dont understand why the combo is complained about.
Well you don't have to stop mentioning it if it's relevant to the conversation, I was just saying that because I'm sure you and I are familiar with the issues they both pose to the table, so discussing it doesn't really seem necessary.
As for WHY it's complained about is exactly why I made the post actually, I personally don't see the issue with it considering they're more or less a mutual benefit to have, rather than a combo itself. The "combo" only really works when Corrupt is active, once Corrupt is over it just stops being a combo and more-so continues to be reliant on Pop. That's why I dance around the word combo when replying to comments since it really isn't one when you get technical. But of course someone can argue it's, in my opinion it isn't though, it's just easier to call it a combo than a "Mutually beneficial pairing".
As for why some players might hate it is probably due to how Corrupt functions. It blocks 3 gens that're the farthest from the Killers spawn, which to some might be annoying since they don't want to move and risk being hit when going to another gen. Than when Pop is added into the mix it might be considered annoying to them since they also have to avoid being downed to avoid heavy regression on the other 4 gens that're available. That's at least the reasoning I can see behind why some players hate it.
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@seki23 said:
extrtemely fair and balanced especially ccorrupt, you only need to hide for 2 minutes as most decent groups in hexys tournament did. and there u go the killer is playing with 3 perks the rest of the match, you dont even need to be good just dont get caught so fast by hiding, als oafter 2 mins is gone and pop rewards killer for doing objectives... gens fly away agaisnt decent survivors why wouldnt be slow down perks fair?.
I'm not familiar with the upcoming tournaments that're being the norm now (or something) but I do agree with the point you made about Corrupt. That actually happened to me in one of my matches recently on a low-tier Killer, the Survivors did nothing and just waited for the gens to be "un-corrupted". I was still able to 3k with the last Survivor escaping with a key, but it does go to show that hiding will run the timer out and make the perk essentially worthless.
The only thing I can see this being countered by is finding a Survivor through luck or being Myers/GF and not alerting them to where you're. As for Pop being by itself it does reward the Killer for playing the match well, so it's hard to say that it's in the LITERAL meaning of being unfair. It's interesting though to read why people consider it to be unfair, so as for the last comment "why wouldn't the perks be fair?" is mostly just up to opinions.
@CalamityJane said:
Of course it's fair, Corrupt is a terrible perk, but a streamer said it's good so EVERYONE has to buy into it.
Plus as a "combo" they only work together for the first 2 minutes.
Well by "combo" I mostly mean that they work well together in the 2 minutes Corrupt is on while Pop still benefits the Killer afterwards. It's hard to say that this is a combo, more-so a mutual beneficial pairing... I guess.
@Hex_Llama said:
I will also go against consensus and say that I don't think Corrupt is that good of a perk. To be fair, I'm not playing at a level where every second matters, but, in my purple rank life, it's never done very much to my game.
Well to be fair that rank is a lot less... "serious" I guess. Which is why some players enjoy it more than Red Ranks. As for Red Ranks it's commonly used on Killers that need it, but sometimes used on Killers that heavily benefit from it.
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@azame said:
Fair I like using them as killer but if a killer uses them and complains about DS/UB it's a tad bit hypocritical because that's heavy slowdown no matter how you slice it.
Well both combos have their own issues as to why people dislike them. DS/UB is usually hated more by Killers and even Survivors for... well... reasons you and I probably already know. I don't want to turn this into a DS/UB conversation either, so I'm just limiting what I say about it unless it needs to be brought up for a moment.
To say it's hypocritical of them is... arguable I guess? It's hard to really say without having a full discussion about Corrupt/Pop Vs. DS/UB, which again I would prefer to avoid.
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@magicmaster2020 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1631289#Comment_1631289
An easy fix I've found is that when making a new discussion click or tap on where it says new discussion, and this should bring the option of general discussion.
Oh I tried that but there isn't an option for General Discussions I'm afraid, that's why I had to get it moved unfortunately. If there was an option than either it was recently added or the forums are just acting up, since usually that (options menu) isn't even in there when you're already on the sub-forum you want to post on.
If you mean the drop-down arrow next to "new discussion" than there's only the options for a poll or "ask a question" there.
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@bm33 said:
It has never crossed my mind when I've lost a match where a killer was running those that they were the reason I died, and definitely not because they were run together. 😂
I guess to some it does, but this can be said about many things like the Killer they're playing, their perks, add-ons, etc. In this case it was... "less reasonable" I suppose. But to each their own, some see it that way because they either don't think they can be downed without it or something else along those lines idk.
@Sluzzy said:
Blatantly unfair on killers, especially on one like Freddy. You can't compare survivor perks to these perks because they are extremely situational and have ample counterplay whereas killer perks are multiple uses or always getting benefit with many have no counterplay. Tinkerer, rewards the killer for survivors actually playing the game. No survivor perks can compare to what killers have and are so strong they can guarantee killers a victory every game.
I could argue that DS & Unbreakable have no counter-play either, considering one is a free 60 seconds of invincibility and the other mitigates the issue of being slugged with a free pick up. Using Soul Guard with it makes it even more unfair in some situations like EGC, where if they get up near Survivors and the only chance you had was to down them right there than there's no way you'll get them in the end.
There isn't really a reward for those perks either, they're more-so used as a passive benefit with little downside. Now with Corrupt & Pop the same can be said about them in some ways, Corrupt just blocks 3 gens and prevents a early gen rush, that's about it and the Killer didn't really earn that. As for Pop some could argue the Killer IS earning something for playing their role, downing, hooking, and gaining the added benefit of a one moment use 25% regression to one gen (while active). I can't really say the perk itself has a "counter" to prevent its use, but working on the same 90%'ed gen that's being kicked after every down is probably not the greatest idea, so it's best to use it as a decoy while working on other gens.
As for being unfair on certain Killers, I can agree that it's overkill on Killers that really don't need it. Usually this is judged from opinion to opinion, but I personally don't think Killers like Billy, Freddy, Oni, or Spirit need this combo. Using Pop on its own with Oni, Spirit, or Billy is arguable fine, but Freddy really doesn't need the slow-down if they're running a slow-down build already. But again, some could argue it's fair, that's why I said it's an "opinion to opinion" basis.
But in a way I can see your reasoning behind what you're saying, I'm just giving some friendly counter-banter to it that maybe you can also argue against as well (civilly of course lol).
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@Eninya said:
I run Corrupt Intervention and Pop Goes the Weasel when climbing ranks. The game doesn't really play the same after the Ruin nerf--pallets also got drastically reduced, toolboxes, and Great skill checks got nerfed as well. While there's less things to slow down the survivors, there's less pallets to slow down the killer.
At the upper end, where survivors are significantly more bold to repair near you, and at all costs, you still need something to gain your advantage. You could always resort to the "3 Gen" strat, but I hate doing that as a killer. It's easy to setup by just waiting, and then you just patrol all three. Run Overcharge and Unnerving Presence, and you can basically shut them down and kill the survivors by attrition.
I prefer to actually go out and hunt, though, and I can't have pressure everywhere before I start rolling hooks and injuries.
I slightly disagree about the pallet point, if a Survivor knows where a pallet spawns and how each tile works than there's never a shortage in what can be used to slow the Killer down. I only said slightly though because the reduction in pallets mitigates how long it would take to down a Survivor, it really just depends on that Survivors skill in what's available in the scenario at a given time.
The point where "survivors are more bold to repair near you" only really happens when the scenario is juuuust right. If the Killer is so focused on 1 on 1 chases and fails to hear the gen beside them than that's something that can happen. Of course in some situations like this they have no choice since chasing other Survivors might result in the same issue where the gen gets worked on by the previously chased Survivor. In the end, the gen is lost as a result unfortunately. Sometimes it just happens because of DS, which is another issue that I don't want to go over here atm.
As for the 3 gen strat it's actually a lot harder to pull that off these days, probably due to Survivors being more aware of the threat it poses. All in all, I don't see the harm in using either of the perks, even without that reasoning. I'm just giving some friendly banter.
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@Xpljesus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1631354#Comment_1631354
Yeah I understand, and I'd like to re-clarify my point to be a bit clearer. I don't think PGTW is OP, it doesn't make the game unwinnable. The problem with it being too impactful is the difference between a killer running it and not running it, which is why until hex: undying was added, you saw PGTW more often than you saw old ruin. It was in basically any game. It just does too much compared to the basekit that if you really care about winning, you'd be stupid not to run it. I wouldn't even mind if you reduced pop by 5% to a 20% regression, and buffed basekit gen kick to 5%. Unlike my last comment, this wouldn't even be a pop nerf overall, this would just make it less impactful - I'm sure there's many killer players out there who consider pop mandatory and refuse to play without it, and that really shouldn't be a thing.
IMO genspeeds are perfectly fine, the killer's earlygame however is not fine. Hopefully an earlygame collapse would result in; less stacking slowdown, and perhaps be a good time for a slight pop nerf since 'genspeeds' presumably get a general buff in favour of the killer. With something like an earlygame collapse, pop being reduced to 15%, base kicks being 5% (so pop gets a small 5% overall nerf, it'll do an additional 15% ontop of the 5%) - I think the killer's perk diversity and the game could be in a much healthier state. Rn I think the perk metas are extremely stale and boring on both sides (second chance stack/slowdown stack).
A fair point, I can see what you mean now after the clarification. I can agree that if you compare using pop and not using pop it does give a slight impact to the game in-terms of the overall base-kit. But as a slight argument this can be said about any perk that benefits the Killer in a chase, passively, or to regress generator progress. But that doesn't mean I don't see what you mean, pop definitely does give a slight impact to generator regression in-game when compared to without it, so I can agree with you on that.
If something like a early game collapse was introduced than the need for Corrupt would probably cease to be and a reduction to pops reduction penalty would be more than fair for the bonus slot Corrupt will leave after.
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@Blueberry said:
I find this a weird question to ask.
If I was to touch them at all, it would be a buff (Corrupt), not a nerf. Pop is one of the most balanced killer perks in the game and Corrupt is generally not even that good, it's literally only used because it's the only option available when it comes to early slow down.
I ask simply because some people actually find it unfair to face, the fact that's even said made me wonder as to why. It's actually a very interesting thing to see unfold in the comments as I personally consider it to be fair with plenty of counters to it, but what I'm mostly interested in is those who find it unfair.
That doesn't mean those who find it fair can't give good points, in fact it's a good way to start a civil discussion.
@[Deleted User] said:
As killer I don't use either. Don't really think gen slowing perks are that great tbh.
To each their own, at least you've grown accustomed to a more unique perk build set than the meta projects.
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@Xpljesus said:
I’d say unfair, it’s something I refuse to use just like DS + Unbreakable.
It’s mainly on pop tbh, I think pop is just too impactful on the match and I wouldn’t be upset whatsoever if it were nerfed. When it’s stacked with other slowdown like this, it’s just stupid. Even if you hypothetically did something like reduce pop’s value by 10% per kick, and then made it so kicking a gen applied an automatic 5% regression, it’d be healthier for the game overall. Pop is just way too impactful on matches right now, to the point I only run it on lower tier killers and even then I feel bad and I’m pretty much trying to cut it out all together
If surge got the buff it deserves, and wasn’t only basic attack, I’d never run it
Also I will clarify I main killer, apparently only an entitled survivor main would want pop nerfed, so I feel the need to state this
Surge should've honestly been stronger out the window, but I personally disagree that Pop is TOO impactful to the game itself. The only scenarios it really shines is with a 90% progressed gen that Survivors keep tapping, getting downed at, and not learning from the mistake of tapping it again so the Killer just re-kicks it for another 25% regression penalty.
Although I can see what you mean by it being not healthy for the game, since it's primarily used in a lot of meta builds which stifles variety. Of course on some Killers it's needed, the same with Corrupt being needed on Killers like Myers who need a start up, but combining them together only really starts to cause issues if the team is already being pressured by multiple downs, which rewards the player with the ability to regress nearby gens.
If a Killer goes across the map to kick a 90% gen, they're only suffering from a Survivor being unhooked, healed, and other Survivors doing other gens. Even if the gen gets kicked and they're fine, a Survivor could be there to just re-gain that progress. But is the perk OP? In my opinion no, but I can see what you mean when Corrupt is applied to it. I suppose it really just depends on how impactful it's to YOU as the Killer/Survivor. Hopefully this didn't come off as a counter-opinion, I do appreciate the insight of (what seems to be) an "unpopular opinion" among the comments here.
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@BigBrainMegMain said:
After the Ruin nerf, it's fair.
If we still had Old Ruin + Corrupt + Pop, then that would be waaay too much + Undying lol oh man.
But yes, it's fair. 100%.
I honestly don't remember people using Corrupt and Ruin at the same time. I think I tried that once and thought it was a waste of a perk slot. So after that I never did it again, since it honestly wasn't worth it anyways.
Ruin & Pop was already a strong combo so... It wasn't really needed to use Corrupt either. Honestly Corrupt was mostly ignored until Ruin was nerfed, so at least Corrupt has assumed it's role now as a more reasonable slow-down perk. I can't really say if that build is even OP, probably on someone like Spirit or Pre-nerf Nurse yeah.