DBDVulture
DBDVulture
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@StarLost said:
- Hook grabs. These have always been silly, aren't much fun for anyone and far too often turn unhooks into a 'you rolled a 1 and now it's a 4k' frustration chain.
- Kobes. 99% of the time it's just suicide, and an easy way to bail on a match without getting a penalty. 1% of the time, it's really, really frustrating for the killer. Rework perks and addons as needed.
- Useless addons and offerings. I swear, far too much of my BP goes into stuff that is either really bad, or straight up handicapping myself.
- No Mither. Just...get rid of it and give David something that isn't essentially a 'we lose' button. I swear, this adept is a team killer.
- Knockout. This perk has almost no practical use and is only really utilized to grief solo queue players. Replace it with something better, and healthier.
Have an option where people can't play with voice coms and perks like Knock Out are actually.... strong.
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The problem is that you can play survivor just fine for free.
Killer requires you have the appropriate slowdown perks. You may also require very specific perks for whichever chassis you are using.
Killer needs 6-10 DLC's on average as a bare minimum to have a decent perk selection.
Also I hate to say but his grind estimate is just dumb. Back in 2016 I had a friend that needed 116 levels to get Iron Will level 3 on jake. This was because way back when you got 1 perk from an "end tier" web. It was also due to a bug that made all the pink perks appear in your web first (for those of you that remember pink purple and green tier perks).
By the time I get a new survivor to prestige level 2 I have all the perks. A new player would likely still have everything before level 3 prestige even if every other character was unlocked but not leveled.
Also I hate to be that guy but survivors are skins. You do not need to level them all especially if they have stupid meme perks.
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@Raptorrotas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3320070#Comment_3320070
As weird as it sounds, I'd be fine with killers only having meme addons. IF they made some of the possible stats lost by removing %-statboost addons basekit.
Because then killers had a "good" basekit plus "good" miniperks/memes instead of bad basekit and "good addon that only fixes 1 bad aspect of the basekit"
Nemesis has an entire kit of meme addons. The best addons are zombie movement speed but they are easily path glitched. There's an exploit where you can make them "afk" next to a generator when they should be pressuring you.
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@Ithiria said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3320241#Comment_3320241
Bloody coil basekit would be way too strong, the addon is genuinely amazing.
I think the reason they don't buff tend to buff trapper is that he's quite snowbally as is, and buffing his power could make him insanely oppressive.
Best way to buff these killers actually isn't a buff to their power, but instead would be a nerf to strong survivor-sided maps imo. One thing most weak killers have in common is that they are extremely map dependent as they lack great chasing powers, in contrast the best killers generally aren't very bothered by the tiles and maps they get.
Clown isn't even bad either, he has a decent skill-floor but once you hit it I think he's a solid mid-tier. He might drop if regression gets nerfed though since he does depend on it.
Tell me which would be harder to loop in chase: The very best trapper in the world (but all his traps are disarmed) or just an average Blight?
You can disarm beartraps for free and it makes him a joke vs SWF teams. He has no real ability to slow down the game and getting free damage on trap disarm would make him not be a D tier killer.
Trapper used to have crazy RNG so that it might take 2 tries to get out of a trap or you might be stuck still at 24 tries. Honestly that was more fair because most of the time it felt like getting out was 8-10 tries. Trapper got some of the most brutal nerfs in the first year (to be fair the no trap under hook is fair and I can't fathom why Hag doesn't get the same treatment).
With bloody coil you can make the argument that if he plays on a map with grass then he is an A tier killer. Without that Addon he's easily in the bottom five of all killers - but still better than Doctor.
There is no reason to have Doctor or Trapper in the same game as Blight and Nurse. It's literally the same thing as choosing Dan over Ken in Street Fighter. Dan is there as a meme; you pick him with the idea that if you win with Dan then the person you are playing against really sucks.
If you want to keep trapper weak then you can never be mad when you only face the top ~8 killers every game all using strong addons.
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@Blinckx said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/361333/some-thoughts-about-killer-add-ons
Let me guess, BNP or Syringe are preferctly fine and balanced Add-Ons right ?
90% of killer's addon are useless, worthless or without any logic. An add-on shoud improve of change something that's not related to your power directly. Let's say an add-on who's going to reveal aura of survivor 4mt around you every 40 seconds ( i know it's stupid, it's just an example ), another one could be a mini ruin ( if you bring this addon, gen not being repaired regress at 10% ) and so on and the same goes for survivors, no more BNP or other things like that.
Right now, it is not "killer add on" or "survivors addon", everyone bring the best addon they have and, since the majority of the addon sucks, everyone bring the best they can.
BHVR should do a complete rework of the addons but this alos mean rework the entire game
-"Let me guess, BNP or Syringe are preferctly fine and balanced Add-Ons right"
That's exactly my point. If the killer had something on the level of a BNP it would let them once per game turn off a completed generator or worse. Imagine if the killer had an offering where once per game they could press "Z" and that gen became a trap generator. Once "completed" it would become inert and never be able to be completed for the rest of the game (and not count for completed gens).
Instant heals would be "fine" if you could only heal twice per game and then became broken base kit.
@BlueHorkew said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/361333/some-thoughts-about-killer-add-ons
Hmm, i think it depends on the killer and his power.
Also if you want to include those indicators you may want to add the option to remove them, i see a lot of high level killers say that those indicators actually only hinder your gameplay instead of helping. So either adding them as an option on custom matches or as a toggle feature in regular matches would be best. But honestly i don't know if its necessary
So here's the issue. Clown is a joke with no pinky finger. Should he bother playing without pinky finger?
Trapper is in a worse situation because he has to slowly collect his power. He should have Bloody Coil Base kit.
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Once upon a time killers were strong without addons. Someone had the "brilliant" (please not the sarcasm) idea to make killers weaker and require them to have strong addons to be scary.
As an example: Launch Wraith used to uncloak faster than he does now. Many killers got minor nerfs that would be 'undone' via certain addons. As you can imagine it was not a good idea.
One of the biggest problems with DBD is the "doubling down" of addons that do the same thing or nearly the same thing. As Nemesis you can stack 2x zombie movement speed addons - ok this is a terrible example because they still do almost nothing. However in the case of Pyramid Head double range addons makes his attack nearly impossible to miss. Double up on Nurse addons and you get the same thing.
OP you need to realize Clown is a complete joke without Pinky Finger. I'd be all for deleting pinky finger if Clown got massive buffs and the new pinky finger was crap but he was so much better that it was like you had a 60% buff on all the time.
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@HugTechLover said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3319826#Comment_3319826
Ok buddy. We’ll just have to disagree. There are not many skilled blights on the game. If you cannot counter him, it’s a skill issue.
The hug tech is the most counterable “tech” he has. You say it becomes uncounterable with speed addons. The blight literally has to bounce a couple times to get the speed going… then has to wait a second to get close to the tile. LEAVE THE F*CKING TILE. It is quite literally THAT easy. Sooooo many survivors just sit there and wait, and then they get hit and complain about it. Leave. The. Tile.
We must maintain strong killers, not nerf them. (Nurse does not count)
Otherwise it’s just gonna be a stomp fest against killers. Strong S - tier killers keep checks and balances. We need more S-tier killers.
-"If you cannot counter him, it’s a skill issue."
Where did I say anything about having trouble countering blight? Don't assume.
-"You say it becomes uncounterable with speed addons. The blight literally has to bounce a couple times to get the speed going"
No I said he can create catch 22 events. Nurse can do the exact same thing at close range. A single bounce can make it so a survivor can't go around a loop again. Other killers just cant do that without a range attack.
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@End_of_Slayer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3318435#Comment_3318435
To be respectfully honest with you, I find it really hard to understand what some of your points are. Michael is far from perfect, and it’s not because I had a bad game or bad few games. His add ons are problematic for the game and need to be adjusted accordingly.
If you’re trying to insinuate I’m a casual gamer, I’m very much not. I play this game a lot for hours at a time cause I love the game. I don’t see why bringing up casual talk about balance matters when he shouldn’t have to rely on add ons to be a good killer (which he does more often than not). That’s why I say they can buff his base kit, as that’s not inherently the issue with him.
And it’s not that I don’t want survivors or killers to work hard for something, it’s that his kit is outdated by a long shot and needs to be changed to be more modern. I go back to what I said about Mori’s, if Mori’s were altered cause of how they were previously, then his add ons need to be adjusted as well because he’s basically just bringing in an old mori except he doesn’t need to down you
This is a valid point. You can get 99% stalk from 3 survivors and then go 1% tap on someone you have never interacted with and kill them instantly.
But how is this any different from you hiding from the killer and finishing generators while your team gets chased and hooked? It seems fine given the rest of the game has this interaction as a regular event.
@DashMonsta008XV said:
You had a bad game huh 😂 that sucks 😔
Michael Myers is perfect how he is powerful ability downside
it takes a tremendous amount of time to get Judith to work and about the next time by third hell only ,there probably want be stalk hell just have tier 2 if survivors play him well
Casual gamers gamers gamers don't gamers don't really gamers don't really care gamers don't really care about gamers don't really care about gamers don't really care about winning games and prefer not to face higher skill killers
Now if were talking about a team you'll be lucky if you get to tier 3
You didn't like my video huh ? I mean 4 were alive they did 3 gens gens maybe 4 so they got to play game
Why does every killer have to work hard every game and survivors don't have to work hard any game ? It literally takes alo game two get tier 3 ,in that notion with his add on the only killers isnt allowed to just eliminate a survivors against Micheal survivors play full games
-"it takes a tremendous amount of time to get Judith to work"
Which is why he should be able to end a survivor on the ground. We already have a working example power of this with Pyramid Head.
-"Michael Myers is perfect how he is powerful ability downside"
He is far from perfect. He can't break pallets in his power - maybe that should be a default thing. Let Michael's regular swing break pallets as base kit but remove that ability from his Iri tombstone.
He has no movement ability. If he started the game at -5% and was +5% in T2/T3 that would make a lot more sense. And if he were using the tombstone he would be -8% so only -3% because of the 5% boost in T3.
I would say Billy in 2018 was a perfect killer. He had addons to make the game extremely punishing but was strong with no addons. He was punishing but was not without limits.
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@HugTechLover said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3318851#Comment_3318851
What addon is so oppressive that you “can’t win”?? BESIDES C33.
How does it not matter how much skill is involved? I’ve put probably close to 1100 hours into blight now. What may seem overpowered when I’m using it, will get another blight bullied because they cannot use it effectively.
If somebody put the time to PERFECT trapper, and they use his addons beautifully, do those need to get nerfed too?
Nice strawman argument with trapper. Does Trapper have movement speed? No. Does Trapper have strong antiloop on any loop he approaches? No - he only has the ability to turn off loops via setup (which in turn can be disabled). Does Trapper have a power that relies completely on an opponent making a mistake? Yes - he does. This becomes interesting when we look and find only 2 DBD killers that work in the reverse. Nurse and Blight can force hits with their power because it is so strong; they are the only killers that do not rely on survivor mistakes to get hits.
Do you care how much time anyone has in Billy? Look what happened to him. That will happen to Blight. Right now the Nurse is getting it and it will be his turn when they take apart the spaghetti code to remove hug tech. It's not a question of : will hug tech get removed? It is a question of "when" it will get removed.
There's no need to call me out based on what I can do so let's remove ourselves from the equation. Let me show you what can be achieved by a skilled Blight player. You say hug tech is weak and counterable. The problem is that as long as it exists as an option then Blight potentially has a catch 22 move that can correct for a mistake by using his power in a way unintended by the developers. I call it a catch 22 move because with certain addons it is nearly uncounterable due to the speed blight has in loops at close range.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTCs6hfxJ7kAnd this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixJ2RETaG_4The best two killers in the game have the majority of strong addons all killers. This is completely stupid. Most killers follow a pattern that can be explained most simply with Clown. Without his extreme best addon (pinky finger) he sucks vs skilled survivors.
Imagine for example if Blight's power stopped breaking pallets. Imagine if he needed a pink addon to do that (like legion Iri button). That one small change would remove Blight from S tier down to A tier. It's probably a good idea to be honest.
In case you don't know the formula for any DBD killer is supposed to be that they are just "ok" without addons. This was a fundamental change in design philosophy around 2018 under the direction of Horvath and Mclean. Nurse and Billy both were seen as too strong because they could play all day and not use addons. And when you put instant saw on Billy it was just terrifying to most players. Mega chain blink nurse was exactly the same.
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@TheDavidKingMain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3317085#Comment_3317085
Considering that killer is currently in the strongest state it has ever been, and survivor (especially solo) is at its weakest, it should in fact to a priority to nerf the broken things from the killer side first.
You're derailing the conversation to focus on unrelated issues. This conversation is about spirit and blight addons and whether or not they are fair. It is not about survivor addons.
-"Considering that killer is currently in the strongest state it has ever been"
This is a false pretense. Let's look at one killer specifically: Billy. Billy was arguably the most power killer in the game around 2018 when we had what some people called "super bloodlust". Map design was much better at the time. Survivors had much weaker perks - there was no dead hard.
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@HugTechLover said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3318194#Comment_3318194
Are we just gonna ignore the fact that it decreases rushing turn rate by more than half?
Are we going to ignore that you can use hug tech and make the turn rate irrelevant?
Blight has some of the most broken addons in the game and they definitely need nerfing.
@HugTechLover said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3317635#Comment_3317635
tell me you’ve never played blight, without telling me you’ve never played blight. Adrenaline vile COMPLETELY changes blight’s rushes. The only addons that maybe needs a look is c33 and alch ring.
Blight has about 6 broken addons. Alchemist ring and Adrenaline vial should both have the same penalty : -2 charges.
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@End_of_Slayer said:
So, as the title states, Michael needs to be adjusted in some way, shape or form. I’m not exactly certain on why some people state he’s balanced, and I’m sure I’ll get some flack for saying this, but Michael needs to be changed as he’s the most out dated character in the game. Example.
Just about everyone got add on reworks or adjustments at the time. Except two people, Hillbilly and Michael. They were the only two killers to be launched and never adjusted in a significant way. Now, comes around the time Pyramid Head releases, both Cannibal and Hillbilly get reworked, along with new add ons. Now, this is a big thing because it means Michael is the only killer to never be altered in some way. (No, I do not count the one alteration to the description of his add on. It didn’t change, they just made the description clearer.)
So, I think it’s time to acknowledge that Michael needs to be changed, as his add ons are old, outdated, and suit play styles that aren’t healthy for the game. Let’s talk about it.
Starting off with the add on that needs to be changed the most. Judith’s Tombstone (and by proxy, tombstone piece). If survivors complained about old Mori’s needing to be altered, I’m baffled as to how they don’t complain about this add on as well. Or, at least I haven’t seen anyone complain about it. For those of you that are unaware of what this add on does, it allows Michael to kill a survivor while he is in tier 3 Evil Within. Doesn’t matter if the Michael’s seen or chased you all game, if you aren’t locked in an animation, he will instantly kill you and remove you from the match. Now, let’s talk about how hypocritical some of this is.
A few years back, the game used to be a lot different, obvious since this game has been going strong for 7 years. Around the 3rd or 4th year anniversary there were talks about Mori’s needing to be nerfed. Now, newer players don’t remember, but Mori’s were already nerfed at this point. Old Mori’s made it so the moment you get downed, you could instantly be moried by the killer if they brought in the offering. (Sound familiar?). Mori’s at the time and still even now are viewed as unfair to some. Which is fair as the killer can tunnel you out to get the mori, but there’s a big difference to a mori and tombstone from Michael. You actually get to play the game.
People complained that Mori’s made it so you couldn’t play, fair argument, but then why isn’t this argument directed at Michael? He has two add ons that make it so you don’t have to interact with the survivor at all until you’re in tier 2 about to pop 3. Just get real close and then boom, you kill that survivor instantly and there’s nothing you can do about it. If a Michael chooses for you to just not be able to play, he can by bringing this add on. Combined with his other problematic add on (there’s a few, both the iridescents are the biggest offenders along with J. Myers Memorial) Fragrant Tuft of Hair, he becomes unstoppable if you don’t know his counter (which is literally just to let him get free grabs, but it’s the only thing you can do to make sure you stay in the match longer). If a Michael runs FToH, he can just down someone and camp them on hook, leaving a survivor to die because no one is able to save, not to mention he doesn’t need to go through a cooldown or windup before he can swing his knife to instantly down you unlike Cannibal.
These add ons enable unhealthy play styles if the killer chooses to go down that route, which some will do. Combine the two together and you make it so everyone dies unless you hide in a locker or work on a gen until he grabs you off of it cause he didn’t get his kill. Along with the J. Myers Memorial making it so you can stalk faster, it makes it so he can run FToH and JMM, which makes him gain infinite tier 3 faster. This makes it so he’ll get tier 3 even quicker. And sure, some people will say to blame your teammates who feed him stalk and of course that’s something out of your control. But just because my teammate didn’t notice him, doesn’t mean it’s fair he gets to instantly kill that teammate just because they didn’t notice he was slowly moving up on them.
Now, people will say that he needs to be buffed, and, okay. I’m fine with him getting buffed as he’s underwhelming at times the main issue comes through his add ons that don’t suit the game today. People dislike Pyramid Head and the new Sadako condemn play style. But at least you’re still playing the game against them and they have the earn their kill by either getting you to death hook (PH) or actively trying to corner you into a condemn (Onryō). Whereas Michael just gets right on top of you with PWYF, pops tier 3, and just kills you. Whereas the other two can sometimes feel like they may not have “earned” the kill on you, at least they had to interact with you in a meaningful way before killing you.
I’d be fine with the devs buffing basekit Michael so long as they nerf his add ons. They don’t suit the game today and are unhealthy for a lot of various reasons. He’s also the most outdated character and is in due time for a rework or at least an add on overhaul.
TL;DR Michael is the only (oldest) killer in dbd to not be adjusted in some way. His add ons suit unhealthy play styles for the game and should be reworked or nerfed. He can get his base kit buffed, but his add ons will need to take a hit so they don’t become even stronger than they are now. I’m sure this will be an unpopular opinion, but what are your opinions on it? Am I insane for thinking in such a way, or do you agree? Let me know why you agree or disagree and please keep it civil. Game balance is usually not a civil topic for most people, so let’s try to respect other’s opinions and give good cirque and feedback so the devs will know what we want for the game
They recently adjusted Michael by Proxy: they changed Fire Up and Bamboozle from affecting his vault speed (as well as Legion or Wesker). This 6.4 stealth nerf was aimed at Wesker but massively hurt Michael and Legion.
Those two perks need to affect Michael again.
@not_requested49 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3318296#Comment_3318296
Really the main problematic thing people have issues with is the tombstone piece
Plus, you forget how would they get the evil incarnate achievement if there was no tombstone???? It would take a lot of effort to remove it from all platforms
Ok let's talk about Michael. If you want to rework him there are a few items that need to be addressed
1)He has the worst start of any killer in the entire game. If we're removing the tombstone piece then we need to do one of two things. Pick one:
A) Michael starts at 115% speed and has normal lunge.
B) Micahel starts at -5% speed and gets +5% speed when he is in T3.
2)His power needs to work like Oni's where he stalks and fills the bar. He has to let go, and then tap it again to activate the power. No more of this "rollback" 99% nonsense.
3)His power needs to have the multi stalk function restored so that he can stalk all survivors in his line of sight and when he does that he gets super stalk speed. Note : this was the way he was released but then nerfed a week after launch. Any player that disconnects has their "stalk" distributed to all living players.
4) Judith's tombstone will now function on survivors in lockers or on the ground - because the purple tombstone is apparently "too much".
5) Michael's base power duration will be increased by 60 seconds ( so 120 seconds total) since Ghost face has 1 minute duration for his power now. Alternatively Michael needs to stalk survivors 50% less than he needs to stalk now for all tiers. Note the second option would make T3 much easier to obtain.
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@FadeRenegade said:
Not sure how many times people have requested this (if any), but I think being a survivor in first person would bring a new experience to the game.
Of course, it would be nice to also have a quick turn button to see behind ourselves while we are running away or doing gens.
Also, it could even be a option to toggle on and off in case others would rather be in third person.
Just a suggestion.
Step 1 : disable the offerings that make survivors spawn apart or together.
Step 2: replace all affected killer offerings with a new offering that forces the survivors to play in first person.
Step 3: replace the survvior version of this offering into a "protection against being forced to play in first person" offering.
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@LilKingfish03 said:
I've had this on my mind for a while and I wanted to share with the community and get feedback on the idea.
Primary purpose of shove: to allow a survivor that is trapped by body blocking a means to escape.
Description: While not running, press the "activate ability" button to perform a shove action. Survivors in front of you that are not performing a conspicuous action or running will be pushed 1 meter away from you.
I've also added ideas for more utility of the shove action:
Survivors can also shove into the killer to very briefly stun them (.5 seconds, does not cause the killer to drop a carried survivor). Survivors can also shove into a breakable wall or a dropped pallet to damage it. Walls or pallets that are damaged 4 times by survivors will be destroyed. Damaged walls or pallets can be destroyed faster by the killer; walls or pallets that have been damaged 3 times by survivors can be destroyed with a basic attack. Shove causes a loud noise notification. Shove causes the exhausted status effect for 10 seconds. Cannot shove while exhausted.
These added utilities could:
Allows survivors an added risk/reward for attempting to rescue a carried or chased survivor (a .5 second stun is faster than a basic attack recovery (unless STBFL) if a survivor gets hit before stunning). Allows survivors to open an advantageous breakable wall at a cost of 30 seconds (or 4 seconds with a full team effort), or attempt to counterplay spirit fury by removing unbroken dropped pallets that the killer might have been saving.
The exhausted effect would keep the ability in line so that one survivor couldn't abuse it. Survivors would no longer be subject to the toxic behavior of being held hostage by either other survivors or killers. One player may not be able to meaningfully get rid of pallets that a Spirit Fury killer is saving. Teaming up for object damaging or killer stunning is losing generator efficiency and risking health states.
Those are my thoughts! Let me know what you all think!
Here's the problem: we either remove all bodyblocking or we keep what we have in the game. It's not ok to give survivors a way to ignore the killer body blocking unless the killer can always ignore survivor body blocking.
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@Deathstroke said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3316075#Comment_3316075
115% speed is fine some killers just need something to go around map faster maybe giving m1 killer 150% speed boost after hooking someone. If you struggle in chase to get hit bloodlust kicks in to help as well. First they should immediatelly make that huge buff but start with something slower like making killers 116 or 117% and see how that works. Blight should be nerfed to 110% though he does not need to be as fast as sadako who has no antiloop whereas blight can make looping nearly imposible.
Sorry but nobody wants to play most of the M1 killers at high MMR as they are just ineffective. Either we need to completely gut SWF Nurse AND blight or buff old killers that are pathetic. Making all the non movement speed killers have 120% speed would go a long way to making them interesting.
Considering Horvath wanted to make Billy into a 110% killer I can't believe that Blight is full speed. Furthermore it's just insane he has pallet break built into his power. Remove either one of those and he would be a lot more fair compared to the other ~28 killers on the roster.
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@LapisInfernalis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3317696#Comment_3317696
That would be a nice idea. Maybe like this: every time a Gen gets completed you get 1% stackable movement speed. So in many cases that would be at least 2-3% for most of the game.
Actually your idea would make for a nice killer perk or maybe something we tie in to the "fire up perk". Add 1% movement speed to the fire up perk OR add a new killer perk that slows all survivors by 1% for the rest of the game for each generator completed (no - it's not a hex and there's no way to remove it).
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A proper rework of this map needs to limit the building to either the upstairs generator window OR the downstairs window by the pallet. Having both is literally a worse version of the abusive building we had once upon a time with Ironworks of Misery.
The window at the back of the house needs to be closed forever.
The entire jungle gym next to the car park needs to go away. At least one of the jungle gyms on this map needs to be a T/L.
The generators on this map make a "U" shape that is nearly impossible to defend. One generator should probably spawn right in front of the house. One generator on either "backside" corner of the house needs to be moved so that more generators are at the bottom of the U than at the ends.
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@TheDavidKingMain said:
Now that the devs are (finally) getting around to balancing Nurse, the other top tiers need to be looked at. Specifically, Spirit and Blight's addons.
Spirit has mother daughter ring which, after this patch, will arguably be the most broken addon in the game. It basically makes the game an insta-win for the killer when paired with another strong addon, like the amulet, dried cherry blossom, or another speed addon. They just need to rework this addon entirely; the yellow and brown speed addons are more than enough for Spirit.
Blight has many broken addons. Alchemist ring, compound 33, iridescent blight tag, all of which can be paired with a speed addon like blighted crow for an incredibly unfair experience.
It's time to start bringing top tiers in line with the rest of the roster.
Before we decide to nerf Spirit and Blight it is important to realize that most of the maps in DBD are not fair. The game is "fine" if everyone is "bad". The second we have efficient players that know how to rush gens and loop the game is broken on something like 60% of the maps we have available. There are two exceptions being Blight and Nurse because they have fast movement, strong anti loop and can quickly end chases. No other killer has these assets. As a result of being able to get such quick downs they also get a bit of 4v1 pressure because they can injure so quickly.
Either every killer without a movement power needs to be bumped up to 120% speed or every map needs to be trimmed so that it is no bigger than 9500m². Almost every map that is big is unfair in part because it is big AND has ultra safe tiles.
SWF also needs to get nerfed before we nerf Nurse/Blight. The nerf needs to be minor so that it has little effect on 2 man teams but massively restircts 3 & 4 man teams. How do we do that? Add the rule : No Character, Item, Perk or Offering repeats. Lock loadouts when the SWF goes in queue except for cosmetics. Add a GUI element to show players in the SWF lobby what perks everyone is using so they can adjust their builds accordingly.
@RainehDaze said:
Ah yes, "balance" only by going around making sure every Killer loses any remotely good option they have.
How about something far more pressing and ridiculous first, like BNP? That's a single addon and not an entire pass.
Spirit should lose the directional phasing noise. That was not a fair change to her. You can listen closely to footsteps like the killer is forced to do since you want to take away the addon that makes her a threat.
If we're being perfectly Honest the BNP addon probably needs to get retired. Toolboxes should be : sabotage only. Alternatively Toolboxes can stay as they are (able to work on generators) if all killers get a generic addon - the first time a survivor is hooked they lose 15 seconds of time before they go to the next stage.
The survivor offering to affect hooks needs to be retired.
The shroud offerings need to be retired and all survivors always start together - but not within 10m of a generator.
The mist offerings need to be retired.
Map offerings need to be something that one side picks and the other side gets a counter pick. Example : The survivors use a Crotus Penn Asylum offering. Therefore the map will take place on that realm. The killer can choose either of these maps:
The killer will almost always choose Father Cambell's Chapel.
You could do this for all the really broken addons people use to get a map advantage. Pair Badham with Midwich. If the killer uses a Midwich offering then the survivors get to pick Badham. If the survivors use Badham then the killer will always pick Midwich.
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@MrMori said:
3 months is too little to gauge the direction the game is headed. That's like measuring your long term improvement at a skill over the course of 3 days, and it makes no sense.
Nevermind that you missed the perk overhaul in summer, which bumped killrates from 50 to 60% and included many basekit killer buffs.
Most people agree that the killer experience has been 1 step forward and 2 steps back for the majority of the last six years. Survivors are mathematically 4/5ths of any one particular game and as such get too much say in the shaping of game development.
There was a killer strike at the end of the first year of DBD. At that point in time matches were 15 minute queues. It's a miracle the game survived considering VHS had literally the same problem in their first week and died.
A perfect example of power disparity is the Trapper. His traps lost about 30% of their trigger radius but can no longer be permanently be destroyed by sabotage. Lanes were made wider so it was no longer possible to place a trap in a lane and make that trap unavoidable. Grass was literally nerfed so traps were easier to see. Fewer than half the maps even have regular thick grass patches making Trapper terrible on those realms. Beartraps can no longer be placed under hooks (which were unidirectional once upon a time meaning you had to disarm the trap before a rescue was possible and while this was a fair change for the game it made the killer much weaker. It bothered me immensely however that Hag traps which almost guarantee a free hit are allowed under hooks and bear traps are now "illegal".
If Trapper were stronger than Blight then it might make sense that the Trapper had to gather his traps across the map. Should Blight need to wander around and pick up 6 vials so he can do 6 bounces? It's a completely unnecessary design element that might have made sense in 2016 when every map had thick grass and traps could take 20+ attempts to escape as a function of RNG. By the way that was something else that got nerfed as now you are guaranteed to escape a trap on the sixth attempt. You can find old videos where people failed on the 24th attempt right before they got hit or grabbed. And while the RNG nerf makes sense for the game in terms of fair play - why does the trapper not start with about 5 traps in hand and require 3 to be picked up?
@LapisInfernalis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3316944#Comment_3316944
I was just saying that your idea would leave killers behind who belong to your "strong killers tier" because they can teleport no matter how bad the rest of their kit is.
Yes Sadako CAN teleport quite freely as long as TVs are on and Freddy has 7 TP points at the start and 0 in the end. Yes TPs help with 3gens but traps or Doctor's shock also does. Hag can also TP, but she is also another thing in herself, since her mobility is reactive without Mint Rag.
My point is, that Sadako and sfredsy would both need buffs (Sadako more than Freddy) because their chase is so weak. At least give these killers an addon rework so their addons are better.
Freddy snares should be reverted to their pre nerf state - but take away the ability to place snares through obstacles. If that's not enough when all the gens are done make him be 120% movement because he can't teleport anymore.
@roundpitt said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3312351#Comment_3312351
This. The only reason they finally buffed killers across the board was because survivor queues were reaching 30 minutes and survivors were not happy. Only way to fix it was to make killer 10% less depressing to play.
It was funny because I could play two games as killer while my wife had not started one. We sit right next to each other and I’d look over and see her waiting. She didn’t mind because she wrote her books while waiting.
Survivor queue rates were also a function of SWF and repeated wins with the MMR system. Good SWF teams won most of their matches and went "up" in the ladder. So they had to wait longer and longer to play someone on their level. That was fair to the players but unfortunate to those teams.
Now it is possible to have 1600 MMR and face a 2200 MMR SWF team if you are the highest MMR killer in the queue. That is unlikely to happen but it does happen. It's not fair when it happens either.
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@LapisInfernalis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3316374#Comment_3316374
No problem, if maps get fixed first. It just can't be that stuff like Garden of Pain exists while there are maps with big dead zones or many unsafe loops to begin with. Fix that first and I have no problem with killers being 4.8. Or if this bonus was just outside of chase only for getting around.
And what about killers who can teleport but have a long cooldown or no real chase power like Onryō or Freddy? They would not benefit of this change but still need to chase like a Trapper. And they are definitely not mediocre or good killers.
Freddy has a teleport and so does Ring girl. Being able to teleport is a massive advantage compared to say : huntress who has limited movement. On the very large maps you notice it most. Both Freddy and Ring can have a 3 gen setup almost anywhere because they can teleport.
It's a huge advantage that other killers just don't have and forces a very close three gen. Freddy might be a bad example for you to pick because he has "ok" anti-loop. Trapper has nothing if a survivor vaults a downed pallet; If he stops to set a trap the survivor leaves the loop. Freddy can just put a snare down as he is moving around the loop.
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@LapisInfernalis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3316075#Comment_3316075
Yeah, broken Blight, Nurse (she gets new broken ######### lol) and Spirit addons need to go, not arguing here.
My problem with the 120% is that it makes a lot of loops less safe. If it was solely for the purpose of getting around, outside of chase, sure.
I don't play Nemesis at all (too loud for my taste) so I can't tell you about your suggestions, but they look nice. There are other killers who need addon passes like Pyramid Head or Freddy.
-"My problem with the 120% is that it makes a lot of loops less safe."
That would be the entire point. Trapper with 120% movement speed would be a threat - not a joke.
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@GannTM said:
Correct me if I’m wrong, but back then teachable perks could only be used on the character they’re assigned to back then right?
No - teachable perks were always teachable.
@jajay119 said:
Watching videos like this makes me sad. Honestly, the visual upgrades they've done in recent years have not been for the better at all.
The maps back then were so much more atmospheric; Coldwind in particular looked amazing - The flood lights, the barrels of fire giving off amazing light and atmosphere in the fog (which is not even present anymore). I cannot fathom why they changed the maps to daytime. The game is called Dead by DAYLIGHT. It doesn't even make sense to have daytime maps.
The generators actually having lights too was way nicer in it's effect - all this stuff has just been removed for 'prettier' textures that really haven't added anything to the game but taken a lot away.
I really want BHVR to look at how visually stunning these early maps were and reintegrate stuff back into the game.
-"Watching videos like this makes me sad. Honestly, the visual upgrades they've done in recent years have not been for the better at all."
Once upon a time DBD had fog. This was a complete game changer because it meant you could actually hide. You could waste 30 seconds before a chase started and then have a 40 second chase. You could use Iron Will and disappear mid chase if you were quite clever. I did this at least 1/3 of the time or more during my chases as a survivor.
You don't see the Claudette in this picture do you? Adding mist used to be a big deal because there was already mist. Making it thicker blinded the killer at closer ranges for spotting players. Compare this P3 outfit of Jake to the current outfit and you can imagine how easy it was to hide almost anywhere.
Why would anyone buy a cosmetic when hiding was the strongest defense? Claudette had the best camo with her p3 outfit followed by Jake and then Dwight (whose shirt was almost entirely red pre nerf). Dwight had nothing to cover his neck but Jake's collar covers his bare skin and Claudette's hair did the same for her.
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@ratcoffee said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3315670#Comment_3315670
efficient survivor gameplay revolves around splitting pressure around the map as much as possible. i can't tell you how many killer games i've won off the back of finding all the survivors grouped up.
35 second generators are not "routine" and require ridiculous amounts of luck, setup and coordination. you see the 35 second generator but not the 5 minutes of setup to get to that point (although, that said, gen speedup perks could absolutely do with a nerf and when gens happen that fast it is a problem)
it was that 55% of games had a SWF, not that 55% of people played in a SWF all the time, those are two very different concepts. my experience disagrees with yours with regards the percent of SWFs in the game increasing. I played about a dozen killer games last night, I had one 4-person SWF, one group of 3 with a random, and a handful where I suspected there might be a pair and two randoms, but the majority seemed to be solo queue only. Even if that were the case, the SWFs I was playing against for the most part were easy to win against still and not like the stereotypical sweaty SEAL Team 6 everyone seems to worry about
-"35 second generators are not "routine" and require ridiculous amounts of luck, setup and coordination."
Two people on a generator with prove and a yellow-green toolbox is a 35 second generator. If a survivor team makes 10 great skill checks per player that's 40 great checks = 48 seconds gained for the survivor team with no perk or strategy requirement.
One person on a generator requires you to devote at least 3/4 of your perks to a solo gen rush build (note: streetwise and prove thyself could be split up among a few survivors if you desire the luck aspect. ) The rest is : pure raw skill.
Either way this is a problem for non mobility killers that lose the game if they have not tunneled one to two players out before they lose their three gen setup.
-"it was that 55% of games had a SWF, not that 55% of people played in a SWF all the time, those are two very different concepts"
While you are correct the outcome is the same either way. The majority of people were playing in a SWF before the game became ultra sweaty and gen rushed/ tunnel focused . If we look at peak hour times the rate of SWF is probably 60-70%. If we looked at higher skill players they probably only play survivor in a SWF about 10-15% more than that.
Generally speaking I can play 10 games and every game is either : 2x 2 man swf, 3x swf or 4 man SWF. If I play at 4am on a week night then I am likely to get a bunch of solo players. I play about one game a week where I gett 4 solo players on steam who do not have each other on their friends list. I obviously cannot check consoles but I expect that happens in the same frequency.
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@Huge_Bush said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3315700#Comment_3315700
This is how I feel after playing him for the last month. He's a noob stomper, but he doesn't really have much going for him. Even after watching some videos last night (I checked out D3ad on youtube) and I still don't see much potential other than hoping the survivors screw up.
I actually like Trapper, he used to be my main killer when I first started, but as you point out, he's add-on reliant. He can get rushed so fast, which basically forces you to tunnel can camp, but I did have some memorable Devour Hope matches with him where I was blessed with a well hidden totem (That I trapped out the wazoo).
I'll watch more vids, but I may just try out others. I did buy Bubba just in case they're losing his license.
I hate to be the one to tell you this but LF needs purple Chili and green engravings to have antiloop on his power. He also is pretty much stuck running the Bamboozle perk every game.
Trapper and Michael Myers need to run corrupt intervention more than any other killers in the game.
-"This is how I feel after playing him for the last month. He's a noob stomper"
Doctor is a "gateway drug" into playing killer. He's for noobs who play survivor and want to try killer or for baby killers who don't have game sense yet to know where survivors are hiding.
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@LapisInfernalis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3315844#Comment_3315844
I really don't know about MMR protecting killers. The most boring thing I endured (and I guess you as well) was hitting red ranks and only see Nurse, Billy and Spirit. Or only nurse for that matter. Now it would be only Nurse and Blight. No thank you.
Surely the game needs more balance, and killers should not vary much in strength, but I also think that this is not easily done with the Killers who need it.
Doctor would be "fine" with 120% movement speed along with all the other non teleporting/movement speed killers.
Blight and Nurse need to have their obviously broken addons removed to do other things. Most people know the addons that need to go.
Killers like Nemesis that have almost no viable addons need to have an rework. And even that would be easy.
Remove the 60 second duration so that if you are contaminated then you are oblivious.
Change the hindered effect so that if you are contaminated then you are -2% movement speed.
Change this addon to either : injure survivors who open a vaccine case/deep wound an injured survivor who opens a case OR -1 supply case in the trial.
Change this addon to -2 supply cases from the trial
Change this addon to : -3 supply cases from the trial.
Change this addon to: Increase Zombie Movement speed by +1.5m for the remainder of the trial whenever a generator is completed. Increase Survivor Zombie detection range of zombies by +2 meters whenever a generator is completed for the rest of the trial.
Change this to read: A zombie within 6m of a survivor reveals the survivor's aura. When a survivor leaves the zombie's radius their aura is revealed for 3 seconds.
Double the effectiveness of this addon on a map larger than 9000m². Double it again (4x) on a map larger than 10000m². In other words : +8m detection on large maps.
Double the effectiveness of this addon on a map larger than 9000m². Double it again (4x) on a map larger than 10000m². In other words : +16m detection on large maps.
Change this addon to cause the broken effect for 60 seconds on injury. If a survivor is not injured then the broken status is applied the next time they become injured.
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@LapisInfernalis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3315661#Comment_3315661
So you are one of the ancient players who didn't stop playing. You get fewer and fewer, which is sad to see.
I remember the Trapper stuff from videos. And I also think that Billy got nerfed too hard. Wraith is OK, which is OK, since not all killers need to be top notch.
Anything but AGI+IG was not fun with all the perma Sabo I guess until STBFL came into the game. And then there were insane infinites, insta vaults, insane we'll make it heals and so on. You can't tell me killer was easier back then. Survivors were just not as efficient as today.
The real problem is map design, not Gen speeds or perks. Big maps like Mother's Dwelling should not exist. Maps like Ravaged Square or The Game have too many safe loops etc. Tiles connecting to each other creating insane layouts (Suffocation Pit) are a problem. That needs to be fixed first. Survivor spawns at the beginning need to get fixed. Medkits need to get nerfed.
Yes, there is a reason why Blight and Nurse dominate in high level play. There is a reason why Myers and Trapper struggle against the same people. Anything that is just right while vsing strong survivors will destroy any newcomers. There are 2 aspects that make balancing difficult: experience and swf. Experienced players can make the most out of pallets and play very efficient, while new players don't. Swf have insane info, soloq hasn't without perks. You see? How do you balance a map or a killer without it being too strong or to weak for either side of the spectrum? It will always feel unbalanced to you if you are not in the middle.
-"You can't tell me killer was easier back then"
Actually I can. Pallets had a smaller hitbox and the stun was on a delay from the drop so it was very easy to trade a stun with a drop. Something like 95% of my swings at pallets in 2016 were hits. Trading a hit for a stun was always a win. What was problematic was when you had someone pre drop every pallet.
Pallet looping didn't exist until the change that changed pallet drops. Until that time it was too easy to trade a stun for a hit. So that means the only defense most people had was infinite looping via windows. Trapper literally turned that off with only a few exceptions. The old Cow tree is a perfect example that was insane if you ever watched a video of someone loop it for 20-30 minutes.
Did you know that Shelter woods had a 76% kill rate? That's because there were no infinite loops. It was literally hide or die.
And then there was NOED which was completely insane with a 9% speed boost and one hit downs. We also had green moris so you could just remove one player from the game before they ever visited a hook.
Also you have to think back to 2018 when we had "super bloodlust". That was an extremely strong time for killer as well. Most of the Survivor nonsense had been removed and bloodlust was way stronger.
-"Wraith is OK, which is OK, since not all killers need to be top notch."
For this to be True then Wraith should have a MMR cut off. If it is accepted that Wraith has a skill limit ceiling then he can't play anyone over a certain rating. That actually would be fun. You could have people with thousands of hours on killer play vs people with hundreds of hours and have a fair game.
All the killers in my opinion should be within a 15% strength zone or we need to have protected MMR killers that don't play over a certain MMR rating. Clown would be an example but that rating barrier would vanish if you use pinky finger.
-"So you are one of the ancient players who didn't stop playing."
Everyone on my friends list who still plays DBD is someone I met within the last 365 days. DBD is balanced as a gaming fad that isn't meant to last but has somehow miraculously lasted for 6 years. For the majority of 6 years the killer experience has been essentially miserable unless you were playing the best killer at the time.
"The real problem is map design, not Gen speeds or perks. Big maps like Mother's Dwelling should not exist. Medkits need to get nerfed."
The problem with having a map like Garden of Joy is that it is fair for Nurse and Blight and almost no one else.
You're not wrong that the maps we have are mostly unfair. Badham, GoJ and almost all the big maps are unfair. All the maps need to be retooled to be no larger than 9500m².
There is a very simple quick fix that would make all killers without a movement power much better. You take any killer that has no movement or teleport power and you make them 120% base speed. So Trapper but not Wraith would move at 120% along with Michael Myers, Nemesis, Plague, Pig, etc. To compensate Wraith you undo the 2022 nerf. Teleporters still get a better movement power as do Nurse and Blight. But now all the old M1 killers become absolutely terrifying on the current size loops. The very best players have to pre drop very quickly and looping as we know it is dead. Bad players around which the game is balanced would play about the same and still go down in chases almost instantly so nothing would change there.
But small size does not mean fair. The Game map is Fair if you are playing a killer like Nemesis, Blight, Nurse or Legion with Iri button but unfair for almost everyone else. Many killers crash when survivors pick that map. My game never crashes when I am playing Nemesis and people pick the game. I have something like a 95% win rate there with him.
Where you are wrong is that gens are too fast relative to chase speeds as long as the Killer can't kick completed generators. DBD becomes a completely different game the moment a killer could turn a completed generator off - but that's likely never going to happen so we can ignore that thought. Relatively speaking Blight and Nurse have efficient chase speeds that allow multiple chases and quick downs. The other killers are incompetent buffoons by comparison. And it only gets worse since the best two killers have the strongest addons.
There was a planned solution that would make medkits and CoH "fine". Somewhere around 2019 there was a plan to limit survivor so that they got two heals per game and then would be broken. It got scrapped the same way that infinite unbreakable will likely be scrapped.
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@kingcarl2012 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3315656#Comment_3315656
So first off the build you refer to BT, DS, DH, Unbreakable was the meta not because it was good for swf, but because it was 4 strong perks, it worked no matter what.
Second in your reply to me you specifically reinforced exactly what I said, assuming the same skill level (comp squads) in comms vs no comms, comms will have an advantage and since you picked comp squads it'll make a signifigant difference. If you take 4 randoms from those teams and they dont have comms, they will still have drastically better results than an average SWF.
Finally, your suggestion on repeats to intitute would need to apply to everyone not just SWF, and it wont happen because people should be able to play with the character/perks they wanna use. The only way to do that would be to have a class system and always have things restricted into certain classes.
only the medic class can bring medkits, COH and other healing perks,
only the gen mechanic can bring a toolbox, PT or other gen perks,
only the looper can bring a flashlight, dh, and other chase perks.
Only the utility can bring map/key, windows and other aura perks.
It would get very stale very quickly.
No you can let solo players bring whatever - so if you see 4 toolboxes that means 4 solo players. Playing solo is a huge handicap compared to SWF voice coms.
If they had a GUI element to show you what perks your allies were bringing it would be simple to make sure nobody repeats any perks.
People just don't like the idea that SWF be limited in any possible way because they are accustomed to having fun at the killer's expense.
-"and since you picked comp squads it'll make a signifigant difference."
What you fail to realize is that we can scale down from comp two or three notches and whatever killer we find is going up against their appropriate level team. If we go down too far then there is no good information exchange and the coms are not valauble. But as long as we are above a certain level the coms give a huge advantage worth anywhere from 4-16 perks worth of information every game.
Do you think you would have no difficulty if suddenly you played a game vs a killer that could add 12 extra information perks on top of their normal build? It would be brutal.
When I happen upon a 4 man swf group with good coms that has someone streaming I usually stomp them the most. While they may play better they tell me exactly what to do to counter them.
This scenario feels exactly like cheating. Imagine for example you slug someone and they say well if he keeps chasing you I can use unbreakable. Therefore I drop chase immediately and pick them up. They will often tell me who has Borrowed time so I make sure that person is hit first so they are less likely to get to use the perk. They might announce which generators they are on and what % is left so I know to stop what I am doing and go interrupt them. They might tell me their medkit is depleted so I know that hitting them now matters. Sometimes someone announces they will bring deliverance so I make sure to hook them first.
I check the profile of everyone who comes in my lobby. If they look like a duck then I duck out. I don't play vs SWF and multiple items. I don't play vs multiple offerings. You can absolutely feel when it is a SWF vs not almost all the time.
If you added me and we played 10 games together without looking at each other's perks and then used voice coms for the next 10 games we would be much better in games 11-20. Planning and communication are valuable.
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And the game launched with no SWF.
And NOED was not a totem and lasted forever with no way to remove it - so it was literally a 100% pick rate perk once you have it.
@Shroompy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3315694#Comment_3315694
It was 45 seconds for each stage, and changed to 60 seconds (like current day) roughly a year after the game came out
that change was to give survivors more time to make saves not more time to blast gens (which is what they do). So as a result the killer tunnels and tries to get stage two if the survivors press gens.
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@kill4escape4win said:
i'm not trying to feed my ego or anything it's a legitimate question, i've been playing knight for a while and been winning most of my games and i've noticed I am almost ALWAYS sent to Eyrie, RPD, Ormond and garden of joy, no joke at least 7 games out of 10 it's always on these maps without any offerings, does the game wants you to lose by giving your survivor sided maps or something? why is this happening?
-"does the game wants you to lose by giving your survivor sided maps or something?"
There is some speculation that is exactly what is happening.
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They could have easily just made the splinters be an item that only works in KYF.
Every time you get a splinter it allows you to play one full game with that killer with whatever perks you want (since it is KYF).
That fixes all the problems that people have listed about splinters.
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@BlueHorkew said:
Dead Hard is a fine perk, it's a high risk/ high reward chase perk.
Why is it so used, well because of the reward, its the strongest chase perk survivors have even if its hard or inconsistent to pull off. And because its a perk with obvious skill expression and it just feels really good to get right, honestly the 1 time you get right feels so amazing, even if you messed up like 6 other times. Also because of the skill expression in the perk you can improve tremendously if you practice using it and feeling the killer's tendencies.
The perk simply changes the dynamic of a chase just by having it and to this day bhvr hasn't managed to release a single perk for survivors like that.
I would assume that the exhaustion mechanic was introduced to limit powers like this, so game changing that you have an entire mechanic so you won't stack multiple together. But to this day DH is the only perk that feels like that, an on demand ability that you can use, if you mess up you get nothing, if you get right massive reward.
I like it. And its nice having a meta perk that has actual risk and skill in using it. Not like other survivor or killer perks have that, they are all low risk/zero risk, high reward
The problem is that DH works better than all the other exhaustion perks by a large margin. It gets picked more often and helps more high skilled players escape than the other exhaustion perks.
DH allows for extra health states which is not healthy for the game. To "pay" for those extra heath states out of chase DH should have some kind of compensating negative. As an example - every time you take a deep wound you heal 50% slower for the rest of the game. That is an appropriate level penalty.
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@solarjin1 said:
Assuming eyrie not so survivor sides anymore! which map offering u burning now????? I'm feeling the new Borgo map myself. Solid loops, good line of sight, and all three chests spawn in main building (basement, upstairs by the gen, one in the hut on the side of main building)
Badham (every version is bad for killer) and Garden of Joy are two maps that need complete reworks.
You know how Dead dawg has a natural 3-4 gen setup? Well Garden pretty much has a "U" shape for the generators which is generally a natural reverse 3 gen (Y gen as my friend calls it).
Both of these tilesets should be just under 9000m² in order to be fair. Garden needs to have 1 safe window in main that can either be the upstairs window by the generator or the downstairs window that can be looped by the pallet on the building's exterior side. There should never be more vaultable safe windows. The rear window at the back of the hose needs to be completely deleted forever.
I know many streamers whose game crashes whenever a SWF sends them to that map.
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@Huge_Bush said:
I've been playing killer more lately due to burn out. I've been having fun running Undying, Haunted Ground, Devour Hope and Whispers. I only use brown add-ons unless I see them equip items and then switch to yellow. Most of the teams I face are bad and don't know how to loop, which is okay with me because I like to harass them a bit, hook each of them two times and then show them the totem and let them escape in the end. The only time I "sweat" is when someone is playing super aggressively (doing gens in my face, body blocking with BT while it's obvious I'm going for the unhooker or plain old t-baggers) or when they rush gens with tool boxes and let the hooked person get to second stage.
I fully admit I am bad at this game and it doesn't matter what role I play. I prefer M1 killers because my old brain can't handle movement killers like Blight, Oni or Nurse (she gives me headaches as well). I settled upon Doc because he was fun and I like his power. The problem arises when I get put up against a team of people who all know how to loop. It's like my power becomes useless because they either run long before I get to their gen, which basically feels like they're taking me on a trip all over the world or they just run strong loop to strong loop. I know how to use my shock to prevent them from dropping or vaulting a pallet at a weak loop, but it's like there's nothing to be done. Either I let them stun me, break the pallet and chase them to the next loop, or I try to use my power which just gives them more distance.
I just had a match on The Temple of Purgation and felt like it was a hopeless situation. The score screen showed they had two strong toolboxes with a brand new part and all of my totems were out in the open and cleansed almost at the same time. Is there really no hope for M1 killers but to run gen slowdown and just tunnel the first person you hook? Anyone have a recommendation for a Good Doc main on Youtube?
You play a different killer. No seriously - I know that is not the answer you want to hear but it is the truth.
I would say considering all addons Doc is probably the lowest tier killer. I'll be happy to play a KYF game with what you think is a "lesser" killer (usually people say trapper/MM) who are both easily in the "A" tier range if you bring best in slot addons. Trapper honestly should have bloody coil base kit and start with 4 traps in hand. Purple sack should just be start with +2 more in hand and add +2 more traps on the map (meaning he could have +3 total with green +1 trap addon).
Doctor has no good addons like Pinky Finger or Infinite T3. He has no M2 attack so he can't safely run STBFL. Doctor has weak antiloop that can take 6 shocks vs a good survivor to get a hit in worst case scenario. If we could find the best doctor in the world he would pale in comparison to say just a "decent' Nemesis. Doctor would be a complete afterthought to just a mediocre Nurse/Blight.
Doc has : no movement powers, weak antiloop, minimal 4v1 pressure with madness and instead of being more lethal in chases he has detection. Since his kit is based around detection he has a severely low maximum skill ceiling. Detection is something you learn to do by being a good observer as killer. You notice when people touch gens/ and see birds moving around. You don't need Doc's Blast to find people except when you are new to the game.
@PrettyFaceKate said:
You run purple discipline and green electrode.
If survivors greed, you fake the shock sometimes.
Doctor is pretty much tied to those addons. When I main a killer I normally run no addons because it gets expensive game after game otherwise. Doctor is a complete joke without some of his better addons (such as the ones he mentioned).
And even then Pinky finger Clown in a skilled player's hands is going to be miles ahead of what a good doctor can achieve. Simply put Doctor doesn't get more lethal with addons - he just sucks less.
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@shiroo said:
Out of my last 10 games...at least in half of them (I wish I was exaggerating) killers just start to hard tunnel at 4-5 gens...
I thought it was just a bad weekend but the trend continues. I understand that you often need to tunnel for pressure but in Solo Q? When not a single gen is done? How can this be a good experience for anyone?
Either first person gets tunneled out or just DCs leaving 3 ppl in massive disadvantage.
You want to keep allowing this kind of gameplay? Fine, but AT LEAST introduce some kind of BP penalty for this in early game. Because it's just insane to me that killers get rewarded for this BS.
After 2 years of playing this game I accepted a lot of things, both on surv and killer side. But this is just crossing the line. The games are getting less and less enjoyable because of this.
Efficient survivor play revolves around the tunneling and removal of generators. Efficient killer play likewise is removing one player from the game as fast as possible. Things like Borrowed time base kit have only made me tunnel harder than ever. Why? Because SWF is completely broken and has been for 6 years with no limitation. Also we have videos were it is "routine" to make one generator take 35 seconds. That's completely absurd.
@ratcoffee said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3315465#Comment_3315465
i guess i misremembered, there was a dev stream where they said the percent of 4 person SWF was around 8.5% and I thought it was something different. same ballpark though
most people don't see dbd as a competetive game but rather a party game, and the reason they don't like people camping and tunneling is because they think someone optimizing a party game and treating public matches as if they were not only a competetive game but also a match being played for money is unfun.
as i said, if you want to avoid SWFs, simply dodge until you get people trickling into the lobby, but given that you like to play competetively maybe you should actively seek out SWFs since that's the environment you're looking for
Actually their stats showed that something like 55% of players at that time played every game in a SWF.
The 8% figure was 4 man SWF teams. In my experience a lot more people play SWF all the time now.
@Stabby_Widdershins said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/360768/enough-is-enough
You want to keep allowing this kind of gameplay? Fine, but AT LEAST introduce some kind of BP penalty for this in early game. Because it's just insane to me that killers get rewarded for this BS.I was unaware the Killer trying to win as hard as the Survivors focus gens is 'BS'. Oh, right, because Survivors get angry when Killers win in any Non-Approved(tm) way.
There will not be a 'BP punishment' because it's not 'BS' for Killers to focus a Survivor out. It's called 'Playing smart' to remove someone ASAP. Because that slows down how many people can heal, boon, do gens, unhook, and open gates.
It's called 'Playing smart' to remove the weakest link instead of spreading hits and hooks just because Survivors are angry.
This guy gets it.
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@LapisInfernalis said:
I say it in advance. I am a veteran player (with over5.6k hrs since 09/2018) so I might not understand you completely. Just because I learned to see things differently and might not ba able to imagine a pretty new player's view on the game anymore. But I try nontheless.
I completely understand your frustration regarding the fun of playing killer. Killer is a very stressful role, not gonna lie, and it has been for a long time. But it got better over the years. Sure there will always be mechanics that are annoying, but you can't always change that sadly. To be honest with you, getting camped or tunneled is also quite annoying and often feels unfair. I lost count of the matches where I got tunneled out of the match for no reason at all. Many times the answer is just "because i can" or "you genrush" or "you looked wrong at me" or similar even if I just wanted to play the game without having the goal to genrush in the first place. Many times I sat on a gen for maybe 10s before getting tunneled. Killers mostly (and sadly) don't care for your fun as well. Or have you ever had an insidious camping Bubba who cared for your fun? No.
When I play survivor (or killer), everything I can do, is to play and be fair to the other players. No tbags or flashlight clicks, no camping and tunneling when not necessary. Of course I bodyblock after I get unhooked, if the unhooker is injured. It would be dumb not to. But Endurance after unhooking only lasts for 10s and can be ignored if you can grab the person. And a tip for you: If someone shoves themselves in your face after getting unhooked, slugg them on the ground and wait a minute. They probably have DS and want to stick it in your back. Often you can get more pressure like this anyway. If I play kilelr I will tunnel or camp if gens fly, sure, but I can always be fair as long as the other side is fair. That's a rule I made for myself.
Getting stunned is annoying, especially if you are quite new to the game, but I can assure you that you get some sort of intuition after a while. Flashlights can (mostly) be avoided by looking against walls or faking a pickup and listening carefully for steps. Always be cautious if someone has a flashlight in your lobby. Pallet stuns are not that bad, and the "vacuum" pallet drop you can do (basically running through a pallet and dropping it last second, "vacuuming" you back to the pallet) is hard to forsee as killer.
And about the tbags at the exit gate.... well you have to learn to ignore it. I still get triggered by it sometimes, but usually I just walk away from the gate if I see them teasing me and do something else. EGC is just 2min long and I can wait that long if it means I don't have to see them spamming CTRL.
The current PTB aims to make the gap between soloq and swf smaller so killers and perks can be balanced around a basic amount of communication between survivors, which it currently is not.
I hope I could help you a bit.
-"I am a veteran player (with over5.6k hrs since 09/2018)"
I've been playing since 2016 and let me share some perspective.
The most common two perks in 2016 were : AGI+IG because it made for very long carries to the basement. You could drop a player against a wall and immediately hit them and pick them up again. For a bit of perspective- the old Iron Grasp level 1 perk was stronger than the current Iron Grasp level 3 perk.
Trapper once upon a time was on par with Billy for killer strength. Why? Traps that were put on a lane of a "4 wall" could not be walked around because the trap had a wider hitbox and the lane was smaller. Traps set on a pallet could never be walked around. Traps could be placed under a hook which meant the trap had to be disarmed before you could unhook a player.
Wraith with 2016 NOED was in a better place than wraith is right now. That's not exactly fair considering how strong old NOED was but wraith got buffed and then got nerfed. Old wraith took less time to uncloak than current wraith thanks to Horvath's meddling.
Billy is a joke to play right now but man was he powerful back until like 2019 when he could use his chainsaw to zoom from point A to point B on almost every map. I think indoor maps to a large degree were added to artiificially nerf Billy and Nurse. Billy with the 2016 flick was beyond broken and was a lot like Oni Flicking his power around corners. Note: People say billy can flick but what they mean is curve; by contrast 2016 had a chainsaw flick that was busted.
Killer overall in 2022 is "fine" if you are playing Nurse/Blight. It sucks tremendously for any killer that doesn't have : fast movement, strong antiloop, and the ability to ignore/fast break pallets. Nurse and Blight have all of those traits and even get some 4v1 potential because they can move across the map so fast as well as down players quickly.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3315073#Comment_3315073
You will find maybe 10 teams out of the millions of players who can do that.
What's your point? Comp players are better than almost every pub Killer?
Tthe very best SWFs are completely insane with how much they share.
The point is that when we go "down a tier" and look at good players on coms it still paints a grim picture for balance. You can see good players coordinating and gen rushing with coms on every major streamer's show. Those games usually are not the ones that become youtube videos. I can only recall Otz showing one video showing how he lost some of his win streaks. None of the killer streamers regularly makes a highlight reel of them getting stomped by SWF.
This becomes a "big deal" when we look at builds like : Unbreakable, Dead Hard, Borrowed time and DS. That was the "SWF" build. It only worked inside a SWF because you had zero perks to give you information. Almost every player I saw that tried using it as a solo had trouble making the build work both when I was playing survivor and playing against them as killer.
When playing in a SWF it becomes a huge advantage if you have people using perks that give information to the team. One player can have alert and see a killer breaking a wall and you automatically know who it is before a chase starts. That is a huge piece of information - which is probably why we lost killer specific hooks.
When I'm playing killer vs 4 randoms it means I can use a perk like Bamboozle four times with the element of surprise. Largely speaking that means four free hits. In a group with coms that usually means they wont even go to certain parts of the map to loop because I have that perk. To put this in perspective the only way I get that much information on a survivor before ever chasing them is when I open a Twitch stream and see the survivor selecting their perks.
The truth is that SWF is powerful because it gives you information that other players have to "waste" perks to obtain and that isn't fair to anyone playing alone (be they survivor or killer).
@kingcarl2012 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3315073#Comment_3315073
I would argue that to be only partly correct.
Assuming the 4man SWF and 4 randoms are at the exact same skill level, sure the coordination grants an advantage. The amount of advantage is capped by the skill, knowledge, and amount of communication used.
Your winstreak example really only applies to high MMR high skill groups, which has nothing to do with an average SWF
-"Assuming the 4man SWF and 4 randoms are at the exact same skill level, sure the coordination grants an advantage. The amount of advantage is capped by the skill, knowledge, and amount of communication used."
Imagine a tournament that said let's have a "prize pool round" with mixed teams. You take player 1 from each team and make that a new team that does not discuss any perks or use coms during the game. You do the same with players 2-4 to make four new teams.
These players are tournament winning players who are now playing with complete strangers. You might end up with all four players normally being the person that runs deliverance. You might end up with one team of players whose job is to prioritize finishing generators.
After the first round they see what perks everyone else is using then you give them a 15 minute strategy period to rework their new teams. From that point on they can use voice coms. You would expect that if you did this over and over and over again with different players that the round 1 with no coms would always be worse than round 2 with coms and planning.
The only nerf I am asking for and have been asking for quite a long itme is : No Character, Item, Perk or Offering repeats. That combined with the new info changes to the hud would go a long way to make SWF not be 100% better than playing solo.
I refuse to play against teams that use 4x offerings to sabotage my hook distances or use 4x luck offerings. I refuse to play maps like The Game unless I have a killer (Nemesis/Blight/Nurse/etc) or addons that negate the use of pallets.
I play every game with the intent to tunnel one person out because the game is not winnable if I don't and there is an efficient SWF in my lobby.
I would love to see nerfs to SWF as well as Nurse/Blight. Nerf the three most broken things and everything else gets better by proxy.
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@Blink0925 said:
Before anyone says anything, I play a lot of killer, I only play survivor in a swf. Yes, I understand how powerful swf is. Yes, I understand how weak solo queue is.
But, me and my friends used to play DBD daily for hours. And got to the point that killers were intentionally going out of their way to be toxic to us. Camping and tunneling just because we were a swf all the while we are sitting there with full on goofy ass build because of the random perk generator. It got to the point we literally could not play. And that sucks cause I miss those good ole days. Not every swf is sweaty. Some of us really do want to just goof off with friends. Those swfs that are ######### are like 5% of them all.
Swfs really arent that bad. Its not really that unfair of an advantage that it needs a nerf. But because of the stigma against swfs, I lost out on playing a game I love with my friends.
-"Swfs really arent that bad. Its not really that unfair of an advantage that it needs a nerf."
Why are we lying about the strength of SWF?
People in a team using voice coms play better than 4 random players with no communication. You will find no players who play alone and get hundreds of win streaks in a row. You will find SWF teams who escape for hundreds of games in a row.
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This was a shadow nerf not in the patch notes to nerf Wesker. If the killer has a power active that makes them vault faster then they cannot use perks like Bamboozle or Fire up to vault faster.
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@Sava18 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3312340#Comment_3312340
At least half the shacks in the game require no hug to slide, the there are other you can't hug in the first place. And I specified when lilith needs to try hard on a win streak because generally he is just chilling trying to do cool things for chat. You can't just turn on his stream and go look he hugged.
-"You can't just turn on his stream and go look he hugged."
I happened to watch his stream before I made your post. I was not fishing for it but the first two chases I see : hug tech was used to secure downs.
Let's talk about why hug tech is completely stupid:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixJ2RETaG_4 -
@Grum said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3312254#Comment_3312254
Given how this game's matchmaking works, no, you aren't guaranteed competent teammates.
Killers have literally never needed to tunnel less than they do in the current meta. If you're hyperfocusing on killing one survivor at a time, that may explain why everyone is just sitting on gens and then leaving.
Also, this:
https://twitter.com/KnightLight1337/status/1563656841976057863
-"Killers have literally never needed to tunnel less than they do in the current meta."
I'm sure that's true in low tier matches or if you play Blight/Nurse with best addons all the time. I can tell you isn't the case with the people I play against when I use a variety of killers who are "sub optimal". It's often not the case when you watch most streamers either. (Otz, Truetalent, etc).
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@thrawn3054 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3310930#Comment_3310930
No, it would be useless then.
@topic CoH has been nerfed to a good spot. It only needs to not work with medkits.
This video is a pretty clear indication of why Boons are not in a good place.
Healing should probably be limited in some global way (see above) so that boons can stay like they are now and be weaker overall without actually getting changed.
Or as I said before killer should be able to break bones when interacting with a boon as base kit.
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@Stabby_Widdershins said:
It has its own balance; Good Survivors will have 4 or 5 gens done before you get enough Evil to use it.
It's fine.
This is actually correct and is in line with what I said before.
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@shiroo said:
I don't care about hard tunneling for pressure when there's a reason for it, at 3/2/1 gens...whatever.
But anything earlier than that should be severely punished by AT LEAST BP penalty...if someone is so desperate to ruing at least one persons experience and wastes their time, they should be rewarded with the same thing.
There is NO VALID REASON to hard tunnel at 5 gens and right after the game has started. Literally none apart from just trying to be a d-bag.
There should be severe BP penalties for such behavior, period. Why killers are simply allowed to just purely wastes someones time is beyond my comprehension.
Seeing that one survivor leaving match with 4k BPs is just sad. Wasted addons, items, offerings, TIME. And really bad experience on top of that.
It happens WAY too often. I just had 4 games IN A ROW like this. Even taking a hit didn't help, killer literally drops the chase and goes back for the first person and only 1 gen has been done. Like WHY is this allowed?
I tunnel every game at 5 gens given the chance. Do you know why? Because for the majority of this game's lifetime survivors have been coddled. Gens are too fast when the players are efficient.
Survivors want to tunnel generators but not get tunneled themselves. There is NO base kit protection for killers to prevent the killer from losing 3 gens in the first chase. Therefore tunneling is the meta.
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@not_requested49 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3311594#Comment_3311594
Why would you down those survivors in the basement anyway and leave them there? I mean I get letting them live on 2nd hook and all but if you're going to do that you should always snuff the boon first or don't complain about it lol
I really doubt you would be playing Hag better. He doesn't know where the boon is but it was close by. Had he left the basement everyone would have escaped. He played that scenario nearly perfectly given the bad situation handed to him.
@not_requested49 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3312266#Comment_3312266
I honestly think a good solution would be instead of deleting them and doing all this, if the killer snuff the totem the boon will take 50% longer with each and every boon on that totem, growing exponentially
That way, the totem stays on the map but also makes putting a boon there more unviable
This can probably be better accentuated by making the dull totem darker and more charred as to show that it was damaged because a boon was snuffed there and to not confuse it with thrill of the hunt or calm spirit or cheating, etc
There is actually a much easier fix. Years ago there was a test for "no healing". It played something like after you healed twice you were broken for the rest of the game. That would make CoH "fine" but not address the other boons.
If that is too extreme then just have healing take +50% longer every time you heal. That means after being healed twice if you want to heal again you have a +200% heal time.
Either option would address overtuned medkits as well as boons. Using this portion of the video with that in mind some of these heals would have been in the 48-64 second range.
@not_requested49 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3310930#Comment_3310930
You mean just COH? The other boons aren't strong enough to warrant that kind of nerf
The unbreakable boon could probably be given two charges and it would be fine.
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@Outcast said:
I'm a killer main. I actually love playing Myers, occasionally run perma T3 but like 1 out of 50 games.
Tombstone Myers is broken in the same way old Mori's and Keys were broken. The rules of the game are fundamentally broken by using a (not so rare) addon. I feel like this is an outdated mechanic from when the game was less balanced and has no place in current DBD. (I just died cause oops, silly me, ran to a jungle gym without a locker...those weird maze ones in Yamaoka....outplayed I guess)
It doesn't take skill to play, it is fundamentally unfair to survivors, it doesn't take very long to tier up, and the only counterplay is "don't get hit" or "die in a locker"
I'd love to see this reworked in the future. I think tombstone piece is powerful enough and gets the same idea of Myers being deadly without a permanent state.
I mained MM for like 2 years playing no killer in between. He's a joke without either infinite T3 or purple tombstone. Both of these options make him fun to play and actually offer a real threat to survivors.
Running both Iri addons is actually a nerf to either of the other options. With both addons your time to tier up is tremendous as you can't have a stalking addon. Time to tier up is so long that vs an efficient team you might get the infinite going at 1 generator so you have no pressure.
He should regain multi stalk to update him for the current state of the game. His power should work more like Oni's in that you fill the bar and then press it again to activate.
For sure he needs to lose the movement speed penalty in t1 unless he gets that back when he gets to T3. I would love to see MM with 20% movement speed inside his power.
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@Mat_Sella said:
The Endurance effect post-unhook was not added because it made survivors have more "fun", its called balance. No killer should just be able to sit idle and win without doing anything at all except stand right next to the hook. Would you as a player of a video game find doing nothing fun? No.
There are multiple killers that are able to negate, ignore, or add ailments to the survivor who is trying to protect their fellow survivors with the Endurance state they just gained. Actually, since they're walking right in front of you and gave up their protection, that lines you up to get an additional hook, or at the very least, lure survivors with a slug.
There are also killers who can make teabagging at the exit gate a lethal move, trapping them and allowing a save. Regardless, teabagging exists in many games and should not upset you, no one is forcing you to look at them, and no one told you to leave survivors alive to do so in the first place.
Being upset over the Last Stand PTB just because it was an experiment is a null point. There was also a No-Bloodlust test. Despite it showing that barely anything changed, Bloodlust is still here. Using this to fuel your biased point is questionable at best. You also completely failed to mention the mechanic where if all survivors are downed, the game immediately ends with a mori and win for the killer, so please tell me how this punished slugging?
You end this with complaining about survivors being able to see what each other is doing, something that SWF is already able to do with far more efficiency than that is capable of. Is there something wrong with people who don't know each other at all, have no communication together having a mechanic that can bridge the gap between friends having fun and strangers trying to survive? No amount of information is going to force people who don't know each other to want to work together. This patch suddenly isn't going to turn every survivor into a Head On saving, Blast Mine spamming, exit gate teabagging player. This paranoia is unnecessary.
The devs do not prefer one side to the other, because if they did, the game would die. You cannot have one without the other, and despite how upset you seem about the perceived bias, that is simply and only just perception.
-"The Endurance effect post-unhook was not added because it made survivors have more "fun", its called balance."
And the extra time to die on hook around 2018 was added to give survivors more time to get the rescue - not more time to delay the rescue and rush gens in the meantime. You need to realize that every hook state being 15 seconds longer gives the survivor team 45 seconds of "action" as there are three players not in "time out" mode on the hook.
-"The devs do not prefer one side to the other, because if they did, the game would die"
Last year right before the 6.0 update we had times where there were 40 killers in queue for 4000 survivors. We know this because people were pining the info off the DBD servers. Killer has been in an abysmal state for the majority of the 6 year lifetime of the game.
Blight and Nurse are fine - right now relative to SWF power. But the "lower 28" generally suffer when you consider having to play across all the different maps. The crow map was in the game for a year before they realized it was completely busted (please fix garden of joy and 4/5 of the farm maps - abattoir is actually fine).
This patch offers nothing for killer and will just cause more tunneling.
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@Sava18 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3312292#Comment_3312292
I know most killers have add-ons that lack in general by comparison, I mained nemesis and p-head in that past. Blight has the most diverse add-ons in the game by far.
No I wouldn't be surprised or upset if blight got nerfed in the right way. If you have seen any of my posts about blight I advocate for nerfs to a c33 and ring. C21 is really strong for a green and it could be nerfed but It's not an s tier add-on or anything. In hens video for countering blight he actually says how good players can tell when a blight has c21 and you can play around it accordingly.
Also last thing I will say on hug tech. Yes it does mitigate the need for multiple rushes in some places but if you watch top tier blights who are try harding, you will rarely see it used in place of raw bump logic. Examples being lilith when he has to try in his streak games and even that video otz posted of the 600+ win streak blight vs top tier survivors. If you watch the ladders game play closely you almost never see him hug tech in any of those games. Typically if you see a blight going for a hug their time would have been better spent going for bump logic regardless of the extra bumps just because the hits are so much more guaranteed and fast.
"Yes it does mitigate the need for multiple rushes in some places but if you watch top tier blights who are try harding, you will rarely see it used in place of raw bump logic. Examples being lilith when he has to try in his streak games and even that video otz posted of the 600+ win streak blight vs top tier survivors."
As I am reading the forums today the only streamer I see on is : LilithOmen. The first chase was bump hug bump hit. The second chase around shack was : bump bump bump hug bump hit.
Again the issue is that having the option to hug gives you a huge increased ability to combat good looping. Without the hug tech at the shack he would have needed to completely wit for his power to reset in order to get a hit. That is the perfect example of what Blight needs to lose. The first chase could have been solved with pure bumping but the hug just made it a faster down. The second chase would have been very long with 0 tokens at shack vs a survivor with DH and the pallet still intact.
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@Sometimes_Sage said:
I started playing DBD in October, so forgive me if I am unaware of some year-long context, but from what have seen so far it seem like changes to the game are approached from a pure Survivor viewpoint, almost as if playing Survivor was seen as the normal way to play the game with playing Killer as some secondary mode.
I want to make clear that everything I am going to say is about game feel, not balance.
One thing that a noticed pretty early on was that when a Killer would hit a Survivor a short time after they were unhooked the Survivor was protected by an additional effect, fair enough. But then I noticed that when I was playing Killer, unhooked Survivors would intentionally run into me to block me from chasing the unhooker, which seemed pretty unfair to me, after all they were using something that was supposed to keep them from being oppressed, to aggressively protect another player, in a way that left me with no counterplay.
Then later while researching gameplay mechanics, I learned that I hasn't always been like that, originally, Survivors could be downed directly after being unhooked, something that many Survivor-players understandably saw as opressive, while from a win oriented Killer's viewpoint it was the optimal thing to do, after all an already injured Survivor was an easier target and also closer to sacrifice after already have been hooked.
Now the Devs agreed with the Survivors, but instead of adressing the problem at its core, the specifics of the injure-down-hook-unhook-sacrifice-mechanic, they turned what was formerly a Perk into a basekit Survivor ability. There was a situation that had both sides having legitimate causes and it was resolved by buffing Survivors without addressing the way this could be used as an oppressive tactic against Killers.
It didn't seem fair, but it was how the game had always been to me, so I didn't really mind.
Then still later I noticed that the majority of Survivors in my games both as Survivor and as Killer were toxic towards the Killer, waiting at the exit gates in a 100% save spot just to tea bag when the Killer apporached them or going into a game with their friends without actually playing to win, instead just stunning the Killer over and over again.
This is where the cracks appeared; why was a behaviour from Killers that, while unfun to the receiving Survivor, was in the end purely a efficient playstyle from the Killers point of view, worthy of a buff for Survivors, even if it means enabling an unfun tactic against Killers in return, but Survivors going out of their way to harass Killers wasn't adressed?
But I thought: "Maybe it's an ongoing process, maybe the next update will adress your issues."
Then the next Update hit the PTB: to adress slugging, admittedly the one pure "harassment over efficiency" tactic avaible to Killers, it was planned to give Survivors not only another strong perk as basekit, but to actually make it even stronger in the process, a change that would not only punish slugging, but go as far as punishing Killers for not immediately picking up Survivors, ignoring all the many legitimate situation where it would be simply stupid for the Killer to pick up a downed Survivor immediately, not to mention Killers who actually had downing Survivors without being near them as part of their gameplan.
Now of course, this was from the beginning pitched as an experiment, with no plans to hit live servers, but it still shocked me that a change, that would so massivly punish one side to adress a comparatively small issue for the other, was even considered.
This brings me to the current PTB patch; again a change that is a buff to Survivors in general. While the motivation behind it is understandable, it is still disheartening that the effect that this change will has on Killers is treated as an afterthought. It was stated, that if this change will affect kill percentages there will be adjustments, but honestly, how is there even an "if"? This is a buff to Survivors and it is intended as such, the only way how it could not affect kill, and therefore Killer success, rates, is if Killers adept an even more efficiency focused playstyle to compensate.
Why is Survivor satification important enough to upset the entire games balance over it, but Killer satification is reduced to win statistics? Killer players aren't bots who will be happy as long as enough Survivors die, we are also playing this game to have fun, but the direction and motivation behind the changes to this game that I have witnessed make me fear, that there is a, perhaps unintentional, philosophy towards "Survivors play, Killers perform".
Statistcal unevenness can destroy fun, but evenness doesn't guarantee it. In the end a fun game, no matter what the statistics say, is a better one than one that is fair on paper but sacrifices fun.
A game needs a healthy balance, but balance can't be healthy if one side is measured in fun while the other is measured in efficiency.
I love DBD, but the updates that I saw since I started playing make me fear that, whenever I will still love it three monthes from now it will be by chance rather than design.
I would say something like 90% of survviors do not consider the killer's fun. It's not fun to lose 3 gens in the first chase. Survivors got tunnel protection but killers have nothing basekit to prevent them from losing three generators in the first chase. DBD has always focused primarily on the survivor fun experience; the killer experience is like an afterthought that is kept one step above miserable.
Deadlock needs to be base kit. Add a "rollback protection" like they added for DH at pallets so if you complete two gens at the same time one gets rolled back and is locked. Change the perk by the same name to extend generator lock out for one minute. The bottom line is that the killer should never lose three gens in the first chase.
Consider for a moment that this patch is going to have one effect : survivors will be more efficient because they have more information. What is that going to push the killer to do? It's going to force the first player on the hook out of the game every time. That is the only way to combat losing 3 gens in the first chase.
Survivors feel bad when they get tunneled out of the game but they have no problem tunneling out the killer's generators. When you consider Nurse and Blight have stupid fast movement across the map it's fine for them to play any 3 generators. Something like 20 killers can't teleport or move quickly. If they lose a three gen then they usually lose the game unless they tunnel someone out. Maps like Azarov's only make the problem worse.
With the basekit Deadlock make it so the killer loses the gen protection if they camp the hook within 16m (kindred distance). Let the killer know they are about to lose Deadlock if they stay inside that range and there is no survivor nearby.
What would that do for the game? It would allow the killer to contest early generators and go for more chases. It would prevent the survivors from speedrunning the generators.
Everyone benefits from Basekit deadlock. If your gen is 99% completed and gets locked then you go for the save.
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@Sava18 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3310916#Comment_3310916
Mandy made that post like 8 or 9 months ago. It quite likely won't happen tbh. Plus it's quite likely you don't know how to counter him very well if you are complaining about the hug tech. At worst for the survivor a hug tech is a 50/50, but most of the time the blight will be forced to flick and any long range flick has immense counter play. Plus bump logic is way more skilled than the hug tech, hug teching is really just muscle memory just like nurse. But bump logic requires the an analysis of a tile and everything around that tile, something survivors don't and sometimes can't think of because they don't know what has collision. People will rarely play around his collision and people will even rarely pluto tech Blights even though half the shacks in the game it's very easy on. Say you are playing on coldwind or red forest, if you know that the entirety of the outside of the walls don't have collision and if the blight starts a rush you can just sandwich him in-between yourself and the wall until his rush ends.
All of blights techs that are available right now are really just variations on the hug tech, mind you quite a few things like shack just don't have collision and you don't have to hug them so I guess you could still moonrush some things technically. There are no flick techs in the game still, all of them are gone. DPI doesn't affect flicking. You brought up billy, but really any curve he goes for has too much counter play on the survivor side.
The reason people say blight has the perfect base-kit is because both sides have potential to outplay each other at a lot of tiles. Plus you have to play tiles vs blights, there is no holding w. There's never an instance where both the killer and survivor are mindlessly holding w. Having no mobility really just gives survivors too much opportunity to beat you sheerly due to the map which is terrible design in itself.
Yes c33 needs a rework and ring needs a nerf but everything else about him is fine really. One of the biggest issues with blight is there is just too much to learn to just naturally learn all of his counter play without playing him or watching a blight player. He's no nurse but you simply can't play tiles like you would vs an m1 killer. Thinking ahead is a big thing for both sides on blight.
"it's quite likely you don't know how to counter him very well if you are complaining about the hug tech."
Most people consider me a killer main. I know how to counter the powers of all the killers I have spent time learning to play. I watch streamers play the killers I don't like so I know their limitations. Bounce play is easier to counter around strong tiles. Hug tech is harder to counter at very close distances on an unconnected loop. Have you watched the video Hens put out recently on Blight?
Hens plays blight because hug tech cheese exists. It 100% reminds me of the old billy nonsense that most people don't even know was a thing. People say flick and Billy in the same sentence in 2022-23 and don't realize that had a completely different meaning in 2016. What you're talking about is a curve from chainsaw initiation. Billy used to have a flick where you could charge someone with a saw attack at a 90° angle and then you could flick to make the saw attack at a 180° angle at the end of the sprint. It was 100% a "tech" just like hug tech. It got removed.
Hug tech on Blight is just dirty because you can force hits you don't deserve without bouncing. It allows you to threaten spaces you should not be able to attack without bouncing 2-3 times first and that is a huge problem. Having the option to do hug tech pressures a survivor in the same way that Nemesis can threaten a survivor on a vault. The difference is with hug tech you get movement speed and you will get a full injury.
-"It quite likely won't happen tbh"
I think you dont realize just how slow the devs are at making changes. These status icon changes are a 3-4 year in the works idea rework to address the idea : how do we make solo players more efficient. Nurse and Blight are way stronger than every other killer in the game. Nurse is being put in the spotlight again because the top players that use her crush everything. The same thing happens with the top Blight players.
The same thing does not happen with : PH, Artist, Plague, Huntress,etc. There are two killers that have a complete kit : fast movement around the map, very strong anti loop and the ability to end chases quickly. These two killers end up even having 4v1 ability because they can down and injure players so quickly.
Most killers have 0-2 of these attributes. I've been playing since the beginning and I can tell you with certainty that Blight is going to get nerfed. I feel certain you probably don't like that - probably because you play Blight often. For years people said Nurse would never get nerfed. She got nerfed for the first time last year and is on the chopping block again this year. Blight is going to go up in power relative to Nurse when she gets nerfed so he will almost certainly be next.
But I will stop to address a key issue. Blight and Nurse need to get nerfed but so does SWF. The nerf to SWF is simple : add the rule so that there can be no repeated characters, perks, items or offerings in a SWF. This affects a two man squad to a minimal degree but limits a swf so they can't bully (but there are plenty of healing/exhaustion perks to go around). Nurse needs to lose the ability to shorten a blink by looking at the ground (the pentablink on test is insane but most of the rest is fine). Blight needs to have a rework to every addon that addresses when he gets charges back. There are about 6 addons at a glance that just aren't fair compared to what you see on most killers.
Compound Twenty-One/Adrenaline Vial
You'll notice one of these sets is not like the other.
NE-a Parasite/Depleted Ink Ribbon
Alchemist's Ring/Summoning Stone
It's very easy to see that the second best killer in the game has that status in part because his addons are completely insane by comparison. Nemesis -having an incomplete kit should be the one with strong addons. Blight addons should be near meme category because the killer's power is so damn strong.
Licker tongue should be : if you are infected then you have a 2% movement speed penalty.
Plant 43 vines should be : -1 vaccine (meaning the purple addon would be -2 vaccines). Or it could be something like opening a chest makes a plant come out that hurts the survivor (or puts them in a deep wound if injured).
The parasite addon should read: if you are infected then you are oblivious.
Zombies need to just never suck but that requires a ton of effort to even start addressing.
Alchemist ring and Adrenaline vial should be -2 bounces.
Compound 21 should be -1 bounce.
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@Zeidoktor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3311594#Comment_3311594
Honestly, I didn't. Half because I was at work but also because, as my post implies, I figured this claim about Boons in general to *actually* be about Circle of Healing in particular, as that's been the case about 99% of the time people complain about Boons. Which your posts seem to bear out, even excluding CoH is the thumbnail of the video.
This generally disinclines me from taking the complaint seriously as it is, at best, sincerely mistaking the issue with one specific perk as an issue with the mechanic as a whole and, at worst, actively deceptive pretending the whole mechanic is an issue when the wonk is only about one perk. In either case the complaints are specific to CoH because, far as I'm aware, Shadowstep, Exponential, and Dark Theory don't have the problems CoH has.
Watch the video when you're not at work. Count how many times the survivors heal. Watch them use the boon to get up off the ground when they would otherwise be slugged in the basement (a nearly guaranteed death sentence). One of the survivors called out by Winter had already used his unbreakable.
CoH is probably the most effective boon but all the boons need to have some base limiting factor so you can't just put a thing out that can never be removed.
@MarKrTheDemigod said:
Shattered hope should become base kit.
Shattered hope perk could instead get a new effect:
When you find a boon, you can taint it, which "reverses" its effect:
Tainted Circle of Healing prevents healing from injured to healthy state
Tainted Dark Theory reduces speed by 2%
Tainted Exponential prevents getting out of Dying state
Tainted Shadow Step makes scratch marks last longer and applies Blind on survivors
Effects applied in a radius equal to the original boon radius effect.
Tainting the boon takes X seconds.
Survivors can cleanse the Tainted boon totems (this either destroys the totem or makes it dull, not sure which would be better). Boons can either not be applied to another dull totem as long as the original boon is tainted OR it could be applied to another dull totem if the original got tainted - this would, however, create an opportunity to for the killer to taint the new one, too and so create even bigger "nerf zone".
This way the perk would be a counter to boons as intended. If noone brings a boon, then the perk would be useless just as now but if you bring a boon and the killer has Shattered hope, your boons can backfire, but you can cleanse them and reapply somewhere else.
Shattered Hope should not become base kit. The killer should be able to destroy a totem by kicking it with an interaction. The killer would not be snuffing the boon - they would be deleting the bones. That means for example on a map like Iron works of Misery you need to think very carefully about when you put the boon upstairs in main building
Small changes would be needed for hex totems to play around the fact that bones would get deleted. Make NOED able to come back on a deleted totem (considering the aura change this is not a big deal). Make a perk like hex plaything be able to revive a dead totem for the first time a survivor is hooked. Interactions like that keep all the hexes relevant and keep boons relevant.
This would also limit boons to be a thing that can eventually be removed completely if the killer is forced to break a boon five times. Given how strong some of the boons are this would be fair for a base kit ability.
Alternatively: if the killer is not allowed to break bones basekit then let the killer rekindle any of his hexes on top of a boon or non deleted set of bones. This would force survivors to break every totem on every map because killers would always use a perk like Blood Fervor. If that perk could be turned back on multiple times it would be worth a perk slot and relatively equal to a perk like CoH.