DBDVulture
DBDVulture
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@Grum said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3300908#Comment_3300908
Having two or three people trying to protect you from a tunneling killer is pointless. There's nothing they can do to stop a killer that wants to tunnel, and not being on gens is just letting the killer win.
Your other idea is impossible to coordinate in solo queue, and anti-fun for everyone involved.
-"Your other idea is impossible to coordinate in solo queue, and anti-fun for everyone involved."
If you're out of the nosebleed ranks then it's common to have reasonably competent allies. If everyone is of the mindset : blast gens then you win.
There in lies the problem because in a number of ways the tomes feel like an artificial way to "nerf" survivors. The reality is that the killer is 1/4th efficient with regression as one survivor and there are 4x survivors. That means the killer is 1/16th as effective base kit at stopping generators if nobody takes 0.1 seconds to tap the generator.
The current state of the game is the killer must tunnel survivors because the survivors are tunneling generators.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3310945#Comment_3310945
Why would boon perks have to have the same downsides as hex perks, when they aren't the same mechanic and aren't meant to be the same mechanic?
The way boons are actually designed - that is to say, the way all of them except CoH are designed - they're meant to be used near the killer. If the Shattered Hope effect became basekit, all the boons would be useless save for CoH because their core concept would no longer function.
Here's the issue. A team of survivors gets 16 perks. There could be 0 to 4 boons. If you look at some of the most intense games from Otz, Coconut, Hens, Truetalent, *your favorite streamer here* - you will see that boons are a massive aid to survivors.
Imagine if hex totems required a boon to "delete them". Everyone would be using Devour Hope and Shattered Hope. If you don't have any boon players then you can't delete DH.
Somewhere around two to three years ago there was an internal test to the game where they made it so you can heal twice per game. After that you play injured. If that became base kit then boons would be fine. The issue is that being able to repeatedly shrug off injury quickly from the killer breaks the game.
One of the only things that VHS got right is that every hit matters. Hits need to matter in DBD.
@Zeidoktor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/360165/boons-are-too-efficient
Are *Boons* too efficient or is *Boon: Circle of Healing* too efficient?
Tell me you didn't watch the video without telling me you didn't watch the video. The boon in that game overlapped so two downed players in the basement got a free unbreakable from the boon.
There is zero excuse to have CoH and NOED not have similar rules. The old 2016 NOED is about as fair as the current CoH.
Base kit killers should be able to break totems when they interact with a boon. That is a very simple way to limit boons in a reasonable manner. It would also create pentimento interactions.
Shattered Hope would have a niche 2/10 purpose but could instantly destroy the boon on the first kick.
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@Dream_Whisper said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3309755#Comment_3309755
I always like the idea of perk stacking being limited to one or two perks in the match. So that 3 DHs isn't possible, although it might hurt new/free to play players whom doesn't unlocked every teachable perk. If there is way to make certain that everyone has them perks, and if so; whom would be the unlucky individual in which they cannot used the 3rd perk when the other 2 have it. Maybe the game cannot start at all, if it detect 3 perks stack, until the survivor discusses amongst themselves that they need to change their perk slots to even the score.
Some folks may also argue with "but you are limiting perk diversity when you have perk stacking" yet I like to counter that stupid remark with.. but it isn't perk diversity if you running the same common meta perks every game and stacking it together.
Also, on a side related note, your proposal of implementing some sort of teleportation/ dash like ability as basekit for any killer would be welcome change. Anything to allow slow/average m1 killers that Do not have any map pressure mobility/slowdown to their power would be a welcoming change. It can be yes. As simple as "adding a movement speed increased that lasts for the duration of you not finding any Survivor and engage in a chase" which can help with map patrolling, if they are not using their power. It can be like Bloodlust without engaging in chase mechanics, and can possibly help with bad maps with far out 3 gens.
"your proposal of implementing some sort of teleportation/ dash like ability as basekit for any killer would be welcome change. Anything to allow slow/average m1 killers that Do not have any map pressure mobility/slowdown to their power would be a welcoming change."
It could actually be so much simpler than that. Add the following rule : if a killer has no teleport power or movement enhancing power ability then they now move at at 120% base speed.
You keep Blight, Freddy, Ring, Demo, Clown, Wraith, Wesker etc at 115% base speed. They move just fine like they are. But now all the low B-D tier killers who suck because they have no ability to move and have limited abilities just got way better in chase. Now you need to pre-drop against them on the strongest loops in the game because their antiloop is their 120% movement speed.
Good survivors already know the spacing difference between 110% and 115% killers; now they can learn how a killer with 120% movement feels.
Pros :
1) People would play killers like Doctor, Pig, Nemesis, etc. at high MMR instead of another nurse/blight.
2) No tiles need changing - the new breed of 120% movement killers are just "better" on those old loops.
3) You don't need blanket buffs for like 15+ killers with no movement power and you don't need to add some generic movement power that could help traverse the map but won't work in chase.
Cons
1) Survivor mains with 3,000 hours or more would cry as all their looping muscle memory would be pointless
2) "Complete" package killers like Blight/Nurse would probably still be way better.
3) There might be some crazy interactions with the new speed. Imagine having a few levels of bloodlust while using coup de grace and you could have a beyond insane lunge range (that only works 5 times per game anyway- but might feel bad).
3) Some of the killers like wraith/clown would definitely feel left out. They already get a movement power so they would not be moved to 120% speed. Maybe with this we could revert last year's nerf to wraith so he gets the old speed back?
The only realistic alternative I can think of that makes sense without redesigning a huge portion of DBD is to set all maps to be somewhere between 8500-9500m². Looking at the speed of the last time we got reworks that's about 2 years of work thrown out the window. On the bight side how often do you really get to say defenestration?
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Honestly it would be "ok" if boons were a high risk high reward thing. If you place a boon and the killer kicks it then it's gone forever the first time (without them needing to use a perk). Why? Because that's how hex perks work and there's no way you are going to explain to anyone that more than half of the hex perks we have in game are even remotely good as boon CoH.
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@Predated said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3309526#Comment_3309526
The stats show that The Game is close to 50/50, for all killers.
Azarov's Resting Place is the second biggest map, much bigger than Eyries, slightly smaller than Mothers Dwelling. Yet one of the most balanced maps available, especially for slower killers.
The Game is one of the smallest in the game, including the fact that it has 2 floors.
What matters on maps is tile connection, generator spread and hook spread. You can have a map the size of the old swamp, if the tile connection is horrendous, the generator spread easy to patrol and hooks available the way they are now.
-"The stats show that The Game is close to 50/50, for all killers."
What stats gathered by whom under what conditions?
Throw out all middle/low ranked play data. Only consider the top 20% of players who are very comfortable with the game and most certainly in the "skilled" or better category.
Compare all killers that can easily ignore the pallets vs those that can't. On one side you have killers like Nurse/Blight/Nemesis/Demo and on the other side you have killers like Pig, Michael Myers, Doctor, Clown, etc.
Do the killers that "ignore" pallets have a significant difference in terms of advantage in win rate on the game? I think the answer is most certainly yes.
We could do the same thing for the map you picked as being a fair map- Azarov's. Take all the killers with no mobility on one side and all the killers with mobility on the other. Do movement based killers have an advantage on a map that guarantees a non mobile killer loses if their three gen is broken? I can tell you absolutely the answer is yes.
The problem with statistics is that you can almost always cook data to tell a story that is not entirely true. If you throw out low tier play I suspect win rates on the game plummet. I suspect SWF groups that pick the game have a big advantage against most M1 killers. I know that I win most of the games I actually play when survivors use "the game" offering and I am playing a killer like Nemesis. I'm not allowed to explain that statement better but you can hopefully read between the lines.
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@HugTechLover said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3310420#Comment_3310420
You know what you left out? That blight has the highest skill ceiling of any killer. Nobody can just hop on blight and decimate teams. I have put a 1,000 hours into blight to get as good as I am.
Hug tech is probably not going to be taken out considering it was added in an update for his collision. Second, it’s J flick and S flick (s flick has already been removed). They are not techs, they are lethal rushes utilizing extremely high DPI (again something you have to be skilled to pull off).
The only reason you think blight needs to be gutted is because you do not know how to counter him. He has a ton of counterplay INCLUDING his “broken hug tech”.
Blight is at the power level killers should be close to if you are experienced with their power. All other killers should be brought up in power. Since that’s not going to happen, blight is probably going to be left alone.
Side note, hug tech is less effective than bump logic. Hug tech is simply more fun and risky for the blight if he misses. You take out hug tech, and we resort to only bump logic, survivors aren’t gonna be very happy. There is much less counter.
-"Hug tech is probably not going to be taken out considering it was added in an update for his collision"
Mandy already had a post last year about 3 months ago that said the devs are going to remove hug tech. It will be removed and it is only a matter of time as to when that happens.
-"The only reason you think blight needs to be gutted is because you do not know how to counter him"
Actually most people consider me a killer main (I am a centrist). I know how to play blight so I know how to counter him when he bounces. There is a severe lack of counterplay with hug tech in that you cannot do anything unless you have dead hard ready.
-"blight has the highest skill ceiling of any killer"
Once upon a time people said the same thing about Billy in an era where the Trapper was a monster when you tapped under the hook . Traps completely blocked a lane and they had "suck in power" that would pull you in from about 1m away. Old traps on windows got you regardless of fast/slow vault and the changes to that are nothing but a nerf.
Billy used to have a directional flick at the end of his sprint and it got removed because it allowed for too skilled play. Blight's hug tech and moon tech allow the same level of advanced play that the devs did not intend.
-"Blight is at the power level killers should be close to if you are experienced with their power. All other killers should be brought up in"
This is the only statement I agree with. Blight moves fast, has fast pallet breaks and has strong antiloop. Honestly it's too much and he needs to get nerfed or else we would need to give all killers some kind of dash movement power.
I'm actually kind of thinking that all non "movement" based killers should just be 120% speed (the term movement including all teleporters). You don't need to rework any of the maps and all the loops just got a lot more unsafe. Pig/Doctor/ Bad_Generic_Killer with 120% movement speed base would be so much closer to blight with the least amount of effort.
-"hug tech is less effective than bump logic."
Then you won't mind when it goes away. Remember it was confirmed by a mod that it WILL go away eventually™. Hug tech makes certain tiles like the shack far too simple. You will not be getting a hit with just bump logic vs the best players. Likewise as I said before when there are interlinked tiles then bump logic becomes far less valuable. In that scenario if you play with bump logic against a killer main who understand how blight plays then you will be in for some serious trouble. You can see perfect examples of this in Otz, Hens and Truetalent videos when they play survivor and killer.
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@HugTechLover said:
Blight in no way needs a nerf. Addon pass sure, but his base-kit is extremely balanced and well made.
Blight needs 3 changes:
1) 110% base speed.
2) complete rework (hillbilly style) of all his best addons. In short his best addons should probably reduce total bounces by 2 ( alchemist ring, adrenaline vial - which would become purple, compund 33, etc.
3) removal of all "tech" (hug tech, j tech, s tech, moonwalk tech)
How is Blight balanced compared to the lower 28 killers?
He has stupid fast movement.
He has very strong antiloop
He has fast pallet breaking
He gets fast downs
You know when you decide to play trapper for a daily and you get a map with no grass? That type of scenario doesn't happen for blight. Every map is fine for that killer and that's completely broken when you consider that killers without mobility are severely hampered on maps larger than 9000m².
DBD is a completely different game when you play in an efficient SWF on voice coms. DBD is a completely different game when you play Blight or Nurse compared to every other killer. Know what those three things have in common? They all need to get gutted.
SWF needs to be changed as follows : No character, item, perk or offering repeats. Lock the team (other than their outfits) when they are in queue.
Two man teams would almost not even be affected. Three and four man teams would be instantly balanced by the limitations and could still play with their friends. They just need to add a UI element so you can see what perks people have to facilitate SWF planning before you queue.
-"his base-kit is extremely balanced and well made."
The devs have confirmed that hug tech will be removed. If you mean he is a strong killer actually capable of chasing survivors well - then yes he does that. But it's not really fair to have Blight and nurse in the same game with weak killers like Doctor.
Or maybe all the "slow" killers just need a sprint button where they can sprint once per minute for 20 seconds at Billy chainsaw sprint speed (cant use their power or attack until they have been out of the sprint for 3 seconds).
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@Dream_Whisper said:
Even if the devs wanted to do Nerf SwF, the problem is HOW exactly can we go about it, without making it too unfun for that side of playersbase. Most SWF as many players mentioned it are casual players that like the goof around and play the game less Causal, and yes, Swf in high ranks can be less forgivening as they can stack meta perks, operated and communicate valuable information about the killer as well as location of gens and which to prioritize on, as well as whom and when can they go for the save and protection hits, etc. Not to mention, Bully squads, the worse breed of SWF whom literally do not fear the killer and intended on bringing the worse experience possible for them.
As we have established, nerfing SWF is impossible as you cannot ban folks for third party voice communications programs like discord, you cannot create a system that blocks perk stacking for everyone, especially if say those 4 Survivors are favorite two out of the several exhaustion Perks. (Sprint Burst and Dead Hard). You also cannot nerf gen speeds, as Gens are not as fun to do; but for some reason, changing Survivors spawn point is not easy to fix. Basically, it seems like no proper nerfs can be maded to SWF, without hurting that playerbase fun playing with their friends.
But, I propose much better change of pace on how we approach SWF! Instead of nerfing it, for being the most powerful aspect of the game; why not buff soloQ to be on par and makes survivors strong all together, regardless with or without communication. Once we makes Survivors OP in general, either as a Solo or SWF; then we can started to chip it all away or simply buff any killers extremely so that most killers that struggle to handle 1v4, to now can handle them. It can be added some basekit slowdown, it can be add some mobility or even lethality, it can be add rewards for going for multiple hooks and chase so that when done and played very well by skilled killers, they can get massive pressure on all Survivors in the match. It will help with the whole "the Survivors have already done 2-3 out of 5 gens and I just down my first survivor after one chase, looks I need to camp and tunnel this one Survivor out of the game; so I have a chance at winning" mentality.
Most of the problems that surface because of SWF have to do with Imbalance bad map designs, the 4v1 survivor advantage. And the fact that certain perks can be quite strong when stacked or pair well with almost any situation, especially when they used a map offering for that build.
"nerfing SWF is impossible... you cannot create a system that blocks perk stacking for everyone, especially if say those 4 Survivors are favorite two out of the several exhaustion Perks."
Tournaments prevent perk repeats and it works great. Even then there are usually only two killers played due to the efficient nature of survivors. There are exceptions based on specific maps where a certain killer has a huge advantage (like twins as a pick for Azarov's).
-"Most of the problems that surface because of SWF have to do with Imbalance bad map designs, the 4v1 survivor advantage. And the fact that certain perks can be quite strong when stacked or pair well with almost any situation, especially when they used a map offering for that build."
And that's another reason to prevent perk stacking.
IF the goal is to buff solo queue survivors and then buff killer we can very easily do that. Give killers a 1:1 regression to repair speed with survivors as base kit.
Give every killer a way to "zoom" around the map either as teleportation that only the killer can use (see monster hunter world with giant holes in the wall). The zoom would be something like a " I can run in a straight line and not attack or use my power while doing so for 10 seconds. This would basically be a "hillbilly speed" rush.
The teleportation method would have 2-3 points per map where the killer can just come out of the wall/floor.
I can guarantee what will happen when every survivor gets more efficient : Killers will continue to tunnel more or quit.
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@HugTechLover said:
What nerf do you want to SWF?
It's very simple:
No Character, Item, Perk or Offering repeats. Lock SWF loadouts as soon as they enter queues except costumes.
This change will have almost zero effect on two man teams.
Three and Four man teams can still play four exhaustion perks but they can't play some extreme cheap angle (like everyone has ds/unbreakable/DH or everyone has prove/hyperfocus gen rush). And they can't force a perk situation like automatic deliverance with slippery meat or allow for 4x offerings for distant hooks and combine that with toolboxes/sabo perk.
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@Th3Nightmare said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3309372#Comment_3309372
Because Otz says so, does it already have to be? No.
I'm a 2016 player, and I tell you that this map is survivor sided.
The Game is survivor sided unless the killer is :
Blight, Nemesis, Nurse, Legion (with Iri button), etc.
I would love for Otz to do his "clown challenge" again vs Hen's survivor team.
Everyone knows which maps favor survivors. The stats show it too.
Big maps = recipe for failure for all killers that cannot move faster than normal.
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@Gylfie said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/359849/just-quit
I came to the same realization. I haven't been playing much recently, like one game every two days or so, just because I haven't reached tier 85 of the rift yet. And when that one game is against a Blight who tunnels at 5 gens and someone is already on their second hook, you don't really feel like queueing up for a second round.
Two days ago I was showing my friend the game for the first time and in the very first game I got hard tunnelled by a Clown for no reason. My friend said 'so basically if the killer decides you die, you die?' and that sums it up pretty well.
This game has come to the point where (solo) survivors only win if the killer lets them, and that just doesn't feel rewarding even when you do escape. I much preferred how the game was before the big balance changes. At least my wins felt like wins and not like mercy.
-"I got hard tunnelled by a Clown for no reason"
Are you sure it was no reason? Let's do some math. There are 4 survivors and each one does generators four times faster than your base regression.
The only way for the killer to have a decent game vs efficient players is to tunnel someone out of the game. Remember back in like 2018 when Horvath made it take longer to die on the hook? Survivors didn't abuse that time to keep working on gens to the last second right? Oh wait that's totally what they do.
Gen rush has never been this strong in the history of the game with the exception of the old BNP. The only thing about that is that during this time the old mori let you kill a survivor without ever hooking them first.
If the survivors rush gens then the killer has to rush one of them out of the game.
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When you are Hens and you win 200 games in a row it's against almost entirely Nurses and blights woth thousands of hours.
When you're the average joe you just play against people close to your skill level (as a function of escapes/kills).
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3304144#Comment_3304144
I mean, okay but you're talking about actual comp players outside of a tournament setting (ie, no rules) AND they're playing against a Killer with zero anti-loop.
The average player isn't going against comp players with ANY frequency.
If you're point is that M1 Killers aren't viable in comp, then I mean that's true
The average killer goes up against "equivalent" comp teams that are their average skill level all the time. Those M1 killers get shut down hard by players who play "like" comp teams.
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@Predated said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3301470#Comment_3301470
I mean, what they personally should have done is not add the 10 seconds basekit, and instead add a 15% penalty when more than 2 gens are being worked on at the same time(same reduction if 2 people work on 1 gen). That would have been healthier.
As for what killers need basekit, well, no, they dont need a deterrent for survivors tunneling gens, as they have multiple basekit mechanics for that already: 1. patrolling gens 2. chasing people off gens. 3. hooking people for pressure. 4. slugging people for pressure. 5. killing someone. 6. keeping people injured. 7. creating deadzones around gens. 8. depends on the killer power, but thats something that indirectly pressures survivors consistently. If you are a Bubba with Tinkerer, I cant spend time looking at my gen because you are most definitely going to start revving when you're close enough to hit me and when its most likely too late for me to react. It its a Trapper, I need to know trap placements or I might be toast.
What killers need is something like Fire-Up. Something that increases the power of killers based on how many gens are done other than just 3-genning. People really underestimate the power that Fire-Up brings if it were basekit, flashlight saves get harder the more gens are done, pallets are removed even faster the longer it goes on(on top of the 10% basekit already), window vaults are viable with the majority of killers after just 3 gens being done, its worth to kick gens before going into chase more often because its faster, the only thing that Fire-Up would be missing, is movementspeed while carrying a survivor. This makes late game tunneling a lot easier, and gives 0 need to tunnel early on anyway.
Survivors need protection in the early game that they lose as the game continues, killers need an increase in power the further survivors progress. This might make 4 survivors surviving untill 1 gen is remaining more common, but it also means that you can still kill at least 3 survivors if you play your cards right. Giving killers more power early game defeats the purpose of punishing tunneling early game.
"What killers need is something like Fire-Up."
The only killer I've ever found a use for that perk was Michael Myers before the 6.4 patch (the one that killed mobility perks). Bamboozle and Fire up no longer give Michael Myers (as well as Legion/Wesker) faster movement speed through a window.
Generally speaking the killer should break every pallet faster than the last pallet as a base mechanic (it could literally be just a base mechanic change where every pallet/wall breaks 0.1 seconds faster than the last pallet. Survivors should take +25% longer to heal every injury (so if you heal 4 times the 5th heal is going to take 200% longer than normal).
-"Survivors need protection in the early game that they lose as the game continues"
If the killer has two bad chases at the start of a game then that's usually a loss. Deadlock greatly slows down the game to help mitigate this. The killer needs something to make sure that survivors can't drag out the first chase. There is no way to come back in a game where you lose the only good three gen on the map and 3 generators with your first down unless you have some crazy setup like you are playing trapper and put all of your traps around the basement (but then they just dont go to the basement).
"As for what killers need basekit, well, no, they dont need a deterrent for survivors tunneling gens"
If you lose 3 gens in the first chase (including the best three gen) then the game is likely over. You tunnel the first person you hook and then face camp the other person to death at the end of the game. That's boring but that's what DBD has become because that is efficient play.
I don't remember when exactly it was changed but survivors used to die much faster on the hook. Considering we have Rebecca's perk that time should probably be reverted. Hook timers used to be 45 seconds per stage and were changed to 60 seconds per stage. Efficient survivors use the extra 15 seconds to finish generators. The intent was to give survivors more time to rescue the survivor (as well as make camping less rewarding).
Think about a game with 6 hook states. Imagine the difference between having 360 seconds to make saves vs 270 seconds to make saves. The old game severely punished survivors who had the mindset "gens before friends". Ironically the increased time to die on the hook is probably pushing killers to tunnel harder than ever before.
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@Pulsar said:
I'm genuinely not having issues in most matches, especially if I'm stacking gen regression.
I just had a match as Ghostface on Fractured Cowshed. 10 hooks, 4K against a 3 1/2 man team.
Since you sort of alluded to it, what was the final result of your games?
There's only one stream really who plays Pig : CMWinter. He's a great player but every now and then he gets a comp team who just predrops all the pallets. You might see two hooks the entire game.
He had one of these not too long on coal tower- but it probably won't be on his YT reel.
@xfireturtlex said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/359225/m1-killers-are-not-viable
To your original point that I kinda skipped over.....
You got a REALLY bad string of maps there. Usually you won't get all the bad maps back to back like that. Garden is completely busted. I've seen good Nurses get wrecked on that one cuz it's just bad. RPD's not as bad as it used to be. Once you get used to the layout it's pretty good on most killers (Blights and Onis don't typically do so well there, but it's not insta-lose for em). Hope you get a better map rotation next time you play.
-"Garden is completely busted."
This map is just dumb. Let's have 3 "infinite" windows in a building - you know the kind we completely reworked and removed from the game years ago.
To make matters worse the map doesn't really have much at all in the way of three gen potential. And it gets even worse because the car park area next to several generator spawns is absurdly safe.
It's one of the safest maps in the game given the main building and the ability to chain most of the loops together. That map might actually be fair if you made the map like 15,000m² with the same amount of tiles it has now so that everything was really spread out far apart and you couldn't chain any tiles together.
-"RPD's not as bad as it used to be"
Recently they changed the RPD map (not talking about the west/east change) so that there may or may not be two gens in the main room. As a killer I basically can't win if there is only one gen in the main room and I can't lose if there are two gens in the main room.
If you play an M1 killer on that map it's terrible.
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@Kirarozu said:
I am tired of being left on the floor to bleed out wasting my time because the killer can't stand someone possibly getting hatch. This has got to stop.
It might never happen.
You need to realize that the devs try things that sometimes just don't belong in the game. Unbreakable whenever you want is honestly completely broken. If that came to the game it would drive a lot of killers away.
I wouldn't mind if unbreakable became base kit if we put in the test that happened a few years ago where survivors could only heal twice per trial. After that you are hurt for the rest of the game.
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@StarLost said:
So, decide to play some killer this morning - long queues so MMR was a bit borked I'm guessing.
Get a trio, all extremely good with their comp stuff in their profiles. Like...hard to even get a single hit on them good, perfectly running loops, not falling for any mindgames, nailing gens out in minutes etc.
Now, most of the time I'd be up for it - just to see how I can do. But of course I went in on my Demo, with a very meme-y build and addons, mostly doing my 'no tunnel, no camp, 2 hook everyone then start killing because I brought a flan' thing.
Ended up getting 4 hooks - 2 of which were admittedly on the non comp player and one of which was a sneaky grab thanks to a snowman. Probably could have done a little better had I been on a killer I've played more of recently and a more meta build...and on a map that isn't a Garden of Joy offering.
They were rude as anything, sort of a wasted flan with how little BP everyone got, but it is what it is.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/XT4A2VYJI8VN/smurfs.jpg
A few things to note though.
- This really does represent one of the core problems of DbD. I doubt I could have beaten them, but this was a game I lost at the selection screen.
- How I get matched up against a monster trio like this...I don't know. With how BM they were, it could be that they've smurfed their MMR down (there really should be a system to catch this) just to be butts, but I've played Demo perhaps five times in the last few months, 3 of which were losing games so it's not like that killer's MMR is super high. May just be a lobby dodge situation though, where they backfilled in.
- It's massively frustrating when you're queueing up on a silly build with an intention to have a chill game, and the other side is looking to...honestly, either stomp lowbies or sweat.
- This game is in serious need of a jerk fumigation.
- Players with Cyrillic names are a mood.
There were a few mistakes here:
- You played vs a 3 man SWF (which shouldn't be your fault but thats how the game is)
- . The devs refuse to balance SWF. As soon as you activate SWF mode you get anywhere from 4-16+ free perks worth of information. The old meta of Unbreakable, DS, DH and IW only worked because they were in a SWF and were getting all the information through voice coms. Try it in solo play and watch how poorly it performs.
- The devs refuse to balance the game for "expert" players
- the people you played against were going out of their way to make the game toxic
- The devs have no real understanding after 6 years of how to make maps fair (they need to be about 9000m²) and they don't really know how to make fair loops.
The most fair thing they could do would be to make loops that bad players can loop 0-1 times before needing to use the pallet. And make the same loop at most allow no more than 3 loops (with no chaining) before the pallet needs to be used.
The problem with high level play vs 99% of the killer roster is that the survivor can loop a pallet many times, then take the vault and chain to a new tile and not use that pallet for a while either.
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@Fantasy said:
If you still struggle with dead hard this much it's a skill issue.
As a killer Dead hard is easy to punish. Hit them as soon as they land form the hook. Now they can't get 3rd health state. Tunnel them out of the game until dead.
@Monlyth said:
There should never be a perk that punishes the Killer for hitting a Survivor in a normal chase. Endurance should only be granted under very specific conditions where the Killer can ignore it by switching targets, like Soul Guard, Borrowed Time, and Off the Record.
The reality is that there should be a base game "feature" where every time you mend from an endurance perk (not from Deathslinger or Legion or another killer power) it takes more time to mend the next time. Likewise every time you heal to full health it takes longer than the last time.
Since only dead heard works that way it nerfs DH and no other perk. Healing in general is way too fast compared to say the first two years of the game's life.
At a guess : every heal or mend heal should take 33% longer. So after 3 heals your healing time takes 199% longer.
To repeat the idea : this should be a base line aspect of the game.
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@MrDavidRay said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3301159#Comment_3301159
What this person said. If you feel you *have to* tunnel to win, you're bad at the game. Period. Try playing a few matches where you don't tunnel. Get your MMR back down to a level that's appropriate.
CMWinter is a pig main. He plays DBD very well despite playing mostly as pig. That being said there are a number of times where it's tunnel or lose.
Most people don't play most killers (especially the M1's) as well as he does. Most survivors can run the braindead tiles - because it's made to be simple and safe.
It's not an appropriate game mechanic that certain killers just can't beat play above a certain level.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3302000#Comment_3302000
That's a very obtuse point of view considering the gen defense perks we have now are based on one survivor finishing them without voice coms. Eruption and Overcharge are largely pointless if you run away and tell your team to finish your gen while you are being chased.
So you're saying Prove Thyself is pointless if a team has comms. Are you arguing against yourself now?
Stop and listen to what you're trying to say here. Doctor is better than blight at high MMR? You keep saying things that show you know less and less about the game (killer is the power role - kek). Blight was a weak killer when people didn't know about S ,J, Z flicks or hug tech. remove all that and yea he will be a "meh killer" after his addons get balanced to all the other killers. But he will still be better than doctor because he has antiloop and very fast movement.
And on average, Doctor was doing better because he's easier to play, has good control, anti-stealth and tricky-to-use but valuable anti-loop.
But you don't actually care about actual DBD, you only care about the DBD that about 20-30 people play.
You say this with either no empathy or the ability to understand high skilled play. If the first option is the case then every noob crying on the forums (according to you) deserves to get tunneled and deserves team members who D/C.
"That tunneled survivor I face camped on the hook had every opportunity to play survivor even though I never went after anyone else and made his rescue/escape impossible." - This is what you are saying.
Point flying straight over your head.
Let me put it to you this way: Without relying on 'winning or losing' as part of your explanation, how is the gameplay you showed fundamentally different from normal killer gameplay for anyone who is NOT up against the literal best team in the world?
What part of his gameplay was actually inhibited?
Boons don't save minutes of survivor team time. Neither does prove thyself, streetwise/built to last (and all gen perks), dead hard (and all other exhaustion perks).
That is correct, boons don't save time. CoH might save a little time, but not a lot anymore.
Prove Thyself saves no time.
Streetwise/Built to Last might save time with the right toolbox. Oh, but hang on, Built to Last now also has a time investment to use, so that's probably off the list as well.
Dead Hard might extend a chase a bit, but that's not a catch-up mechanism, is it?
Also there are not medkits you can find to heal you. Nor is it possible to get a greentoolbox in a chest. And there can never be a key in a chest- oh wait that is in fact a possibility and you simply don't understand the game (or don't want it to be balanced).
Chests are literally never worth it. Whatever you get out of it will not compensate for the time loss. Trust me, I've got a dedicated build on David with Plunderer's, Ace in the Hole, Appraisal, and whatever other perk it was I complemented that build with. It's fun, but that's all it is, because it has a winrate of 0%.
There's a reason no one does chests, and that's because it might as well be a reportable offense in most cases. You are just sandbagging your team if you do a chest instead of a gen.
And KEYS?
All right, pack it up, boys! I know the killer hard-tunnelled one guy out in under three minutes and we still have a gen left to do with one person dead, but the killer doesn't stand a chance now that I have a BROKEN KEY THAT I FISHED OUT OF A CHEST!
"Broken keys turn 4Ks into 3Es!" - DBDVulture, 2022.
What a catch-up mechanic, boy-oh-boy.
-"So you're saying Prove Thyself is pointless if a team has comms"
Imagine this team message The shack generator is 60% finished, rotate over while I run him to main. Overcharge - pointless if they touch it instantly. The kick from eruption would be wasted too if you finish the 40% before the killer hits your friend twice.
It's almost as if : -"Point flying straight over your head."
-"And on average, Doctor was doing better because he's easier to play, has good control, anti-stealth and tricky-to-use but valuable anti-loop."
The devs do not record enough stats to actually give us a good picture of their game. I'd love to see Doctor play at 1600 MMR vs 1600 MMR survivors vs 1600 Nurse play at the same level. Doctor isn't going to be on the same level - to be clear the Doctor is going to be drenched with sweat while the Nurse can check their text messages mid game.
Then you need to cross reference the best Doctor in the world with the best Nurse.
-"What part of his gameplay was actually inhibited?"
Since you completely don't get it : almost every killer in the game has a point where you just can't touch survivors who play a near perfect game. Nurse and Blight largely speaking do not have that limitation because they have : fast movment, quick chases and strong anti loop. No other killers have the complete package.
-"CoH might save a little time, but not a lot anymore"
Coconut RTS made a video some time ago where he broke down the games he won and lost counting how many times people healed. Try getting in 20-30 heals per game without a boon.
-"Chests are literally never worth it"
Generally speaking yes but it could pay off if you can't work an important gen and working another gen is pointless due to 3 gen problem or something. You could get a green toolbox which could be huge if you or an ally had streetwise (and you had built to last). Ironically the perks you were trying to make it escape worthy are only going to work for farming with a team that already wins a lot. If you cannot work a generator, heal or rescue an ally then you can try looting a chest that might give you a few seconds of repair speed boost.
-" Built to Last now also has a time investment to use, so that's probably off the list as well."
Generators once completed can't be reset to zero - you seem to keep forgetting that fact. If you finish the generator one second before the killer gets there then that can be worth it.
"-Prove Thyself saves no time."
In a vacuum if there is no pressure from the killer you might be right. But if I'm sitting on a 3 gen and I only leave it for less than 40 seconds at a time you will never break it without a perk like Prove (or another rush perk) if one player is dead. I don't mind if a game goes to 30-40 minutes. There are games where sometimes I sit at the 3 gen setup for 3-4 minutes waiting for a full reset (and this happens several times).
You're ignorance about time savings is adorable. The difference between really good players and "ok" players is that the best survivors pretty much only make great checks. If every player makes 10 great checks per game that's (10 * 4 * 1.2) = 48 seconds. That can easily make the difference between getting the gen completed and only getting it 99% finished.
In that same 3 gen scenario which is better? Two people on the same generator with prove or two people on a 90 second generator that neither can ever possibly finish in 40 seconds?
-"Dead Hard might extend a chase a bit, but that's not a catch-up mechanism, is it?"
Running the killer longer than 40 seconds per hit massively tilts the game to favor survivors. This is what makes Nurse/Blight so good as they can mitigate Shift W and pre-running so that every chase is a good chase. Every chase can be a short with those two killers if you use your power correctly. Many killers like Pinhead, Clown and Doctor can be forced to use their power multiple times against perfect play on strong tiles before it is possible to get a hit. I've seen perfect play with Pinhead require 8 chain hits to get a hit, 6+ shocks from doctor and two reloads from clown.
-"And KEYS?"
Like the story about the starfish - it matters to the one that escaped. Only getting 3 kills is a worse win than getting 4 kills. Like it or not someone getting away because of a key is a catch up mechanic (as is the hatch itself).
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3302167#Comment_3302167
I play Wraith frequently, Doctor semi-frequently and Clown irregularly.
I used to main Blight, but Console Blight was hard. I actually play a lot of Knight and Wesker but I generally rotate through the Killer cast.
Hours don't necessarily correlate to skill. I'll stick by that statement. I suppose I don't really understand what you're trying to say in this first part.
So, roughly 30 seconds or less of queue time. You selectively pick lobbies? Intriguing. Likewise, how do you know people are SWF? Do you check their profiles?
Likewise, if your queues are that short, I have bad news for your narrative. You aren't playing against top MMR players every match. Your queues would be FAR longer, we're talking 15+ minutes. There aren't enough high MMR players to allow queue times to be that short every match, like you claim. Either you're mistaken about your queue times or you're mistaken about the skill of your opponents. I hate to be the person to break it to you but you might need to re-evaluate and start from scratch.
-"Hours don't necessarily correlate to skill"
This is correct but there is a caveat. Which player do you want on your team for the million dollar DBD tournament. Do you want the person with 10,000 hours or the person with 100 hours?
Some people just really like a game and never improve. I had a friend with hundreds of hours who was not even as good as someone who became a strong looper at 80 hours. The 80 hour player watched streamers and practiced occasionally in KYF games. The person has to have a desire to get better which usually is a representation of passion. However there is some element of forced repetition that will make people better even against their will.
-"You aren't playing against top MMR players every match. Your queues would be FAR longer, we're talking 15+ minutes."
Your understanding of the match making process is flawed. This isn't two years ago when Marth was playing Starcraft between games of Nurse. The game wants to put you in a match within two minutes. Read what they told us how the Matchmaking process works. It looks for numbers that are close and puts them together. Now remember what we learned from Choy's discussions with people I won't mention about MMR. Your MMR does not matter after 1600 and is really more of a guideline. All the numbers after that point are effectively identical.
Let's pretend for a moment that I'm the best killer in my region according to kill/death ratio ( I'm not but let's pretend I'm in the top #10). We know without doubt that the number of survivors in queue overall massively outnumbers killers. The ratio before 6.0 was something like 100:1. Almost every game I played in the last week as killer was with a +100% bonus. That tells me not many people in my region want to play killer.
If I am a ~1600 MMR player and there are multiple high MMR survivor teams in queue then I should be able to get games very quickly. I noticed within the last month or so that almost all my games have red ping. This is a telltale sign that I am playing people from greater distances than you might expect. Why would the game put us together? It's not my Internet as I have very fast up and down speed (and no one else is using it).
-"Either you're mistaken about your queue times or you're mistaken about the skill of your opponents"
This is a logic fault as there are other possibilities. You ignore the possibility that there are survivors who have been in the queue for ~2 minutes and I am "close enough" to trigger an instant match due to the relaxed search limits.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3302125#Comment_3302125
There is a certain point where the hour difference isn't impactful anymore.
Like for instance, myself. I've got about 3.5K hours, mostly into Killer. I can win consistently against people with 10K hours. Now, hours don't necessarily equate to skill, but these guys do have the most escapes on Xbox and the other instance I'm thinking of was against Tofu.
And likewise, to your point about mistakes. Most of them can and will turn the game, especially at higher levels of play. Healing when you shouldn't have is a big one.
-"I've got about 3.5K hours, mostly into Killer. I can win consistently against people with 10K hours. Now, hours don't necessarily equate to skill"
Do you play Doctor, Clown (wthout pinky), wraith, Trapper Pig and MM (no purple tombstone/ infinite t3)? Or do you just play Nurse and Blight?
You need to be careful with statements like that. It's very clear as a generalization that 1 hour < 50 hours < 500 hours < 1500 hours < 5000 hours.
Once a player gets to 2000-000 hours it kinda becomes true. If the player in question watches a lot of streams they will play way beyond their hour count because they can pick up traits that a 9k hour player learned without spending 9k hours.
The other issue is: can the player play killer and survivor? Survivor mains often just don't even know what options a killer has for addons.
Back in 2018 or so I had friends that could loop literally for 2 mintues at a time. But they were powerless against Nurse. I was able to make Nurse mains drop chase over and over again and they didn't understand why. It was because I know how to play Nurse and know her limits. Also I ran spinechill before it was meta because I knew from a discussion with Horvath that it gave 6% to vault speed. SC also let you know instantly if a nurse had the right blink angle or not.
@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3302158#Comment_3302158
How long are your Killer Queues?
My region is almost always 100% killer bonus after the sun goes down until a few hours before sunrise. I haven't really counted as an average but most of the time it's enough to buy two to five items in a blood web.
As I have said before 90% of my lobbies are 2x 2 man SWF, 3x SWf or 4x SWF. I will only ever play a 3 or 4 man group if they : do not have lots of items, do not stack offerings and do not pick a map (unless ithey do something dumb like pick PH map or The Game when I am playing a killer with an ability to negate pallets).
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@Man_of_triangles said:
The game is fundamentally built around tunneling (and also camping, though that one depends on where you down the survivor in relation to generators and the behaviour of survivors) and not tunneling means that you're eight hooks in and still have no kills. Then 4 people t-bag you at the exit gates. No amount of survivor nerfs are going to make killers tunnel less, it's the way they are supposed to play.
This is false and I will provide an example to prove it. It's very simple : If there is a reward that is better than tunneling someone out then killers will do that instead.
Imagine if hooking a survivor reduces the generator repair rate (as well as healing, totems, doors, etc.) for all survivors by 8% if they have never been hooked before. That would mean if you hook all 4 survivors as your first hook then everyone has -32% to all actions. To prevent the rewarding of tunneling : if a survivor is hooked for the first time after someone is killed then that no longer provides an 8% penalty.
That would be better than tunneling out one survivor. Now imagine we got a "redo" to Dying Light so that it offered no bonus to survivors and read : If you hook a survivor that was not the last survivor hooked then all survivors get a stacking penalty of 4% for all actions.
Now in the same scenario you could tunnel out one player or you could get three unique hooks. Getting three unique hooks will bypass all the nasty things like DS and Off the Record. And every survivor in the game would have -24% + -12% penalty to all actions. The first few gens would fly like normal but the end of the game would be very slow. If you got in an 8 hook situation where no one had died then the penalties would be something like : 32% + 24 to 32% slowdown.
Imagine if you stacked Sloppy Butcher and Dying Light with two gen regression perks. Healing would be terrible with a minimum of -75% healing speed (and of course all healing would be reset if you stop).
@Stabby_Widdershins said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3302064#Comment_3302064
Survivors have been win-shaming Killers for years, man.
Don't tunnel, camp, or slug. Don't use 'crutch perks' like NoED (It somehow gives mythical 'free kills' and is somehow magically uncleansable and uncounterable). Don't use 'Crutch Killers' either. Or 'OP' addons. There's a list of Survivor Approved Killers and Addons, but it's up to you to find it, and it can change hourly, or even based on the whims of who's in your lobby from one match to the next.
In short: Don't win if it makes the Survivor Overlords sad. And make sure you filled out your Permission To Hook form in triplicate before hooking anyone, because it might inconvenience them. And they can revoke that permission at any time without telling you, but they expect you to know if they did. 🙃
-"Survivors have been win-shaming Killers for years ... Don't tunnel, camp, or slug."
The problem with tunneling is that survivors want to tunnel generators and not get tunneled in return. That is a logic fault. Something like Basekit Deadlock would go a long way to prevent gen rushing. Add that and then add a minimum requirement of gens to be done before a player can be picked up to be hooked the last time (probably no deaths before 3 gens makes sense).
@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3301390#Comment_3301390
Never would I imagine that playing to win in a PVP game is considered "scummy".
What makes tunneling scummy? One player doesn't get much of a game. Well The killer doesn't get much of a game when all the gens are completed when he has two hooks. I have seen games in the last month where this has happeend to every killer main I have watched (Hens, Truetalent, Otz, Bronx, etc).
@Johnny_XMan said:
It's not about the why it's about the fact that it is not balanced.
More specifically with how easy/convenient of a choice it is for killers (YES Even those who are already winning do it). Devs need to address this playstyle where a perk isn't necessary to soft counter it.
You need to stop this rhetoric. Survivors want to tunnel gens and then get chased when the doors are at 99% and nothing matters because they can't really get killed and are not in any danger. That is scummy.
Remove tunneling for both sides or don't touch it.
Nerf Blight Nurse and SWF (as well as their addons and Spirit's addons).
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@Steakdabait said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3302013#Comment_3302013
"What happens on RPD if I have 2 gens in the main room and 1 gen on a side room about 8m away? What happens if I camp the hook in the middle room? No gens get done and that survivor will die if you do nothing. Most of the time this is the only time killer is in a power role : a hooked survivor is in the middle of their three gen setup.
You get to camp and defend the gens at the same time. That is the only way for most killers to pressure 4 players at the same time."
strawman lol
Gens fly because the survivor objective requires zero skill. If you are not mentally challenged then the task is a complete joke. The gens will fly regardless of what you do. Two players on a gen with prove will finish that gen in 45 seconds. The bare minimum for a chase is about 20 seconds per hit. That allows you to set a pace that is impossible for the killer to match.
"Chases are too long relative to generator completion times (except in the case of very bad players). There are too many pallets and too many vaults after a certain level of skill. We can go look at truetalent's recent games where he tunnels two people out with 6 hooks. Bad loopers who gen rush can often win the game because all you have to do is repair faster than he can down without making too many mistakes. Perks that speed up healing and gen repair massively cripple the killer."
Yes, gens don't require skill to do that's not the point of them. Never has been never will be. Skill from the survivor comes from learning how to minimize how much pressure the killer is able to apply. If survivors are getting huge prove thyself value in a match you are playing poorly. Trying to get value of prove thyself early in the match is a bad macro play from the survivors and will set yourself to fail.
Tru3 is extremely whiny, he's always been. He whined playing for honor, he whined about injustice 2, and he is still whining playing dbd 5 years later. So i honestly don't really care that your example of proof for you point is that he lost a few matches.
i was actually petty enough that i went and counted his W/Ls on his last stream. 12 4ks, 3 games with all 5 gens done. Worse match for him was a 1k on cowshed as ghostface. That's like a +80%~ winrate.
"The difference in map sizes also matters tremendously. Imagine playing on coal tower and you chase someone only to find someone on the next tile over. Now you are chasing two people for the price of one. That is why small maps are fair and large maps are not."
Your best point. I 100% agree with every said here.
"strawman lol"
Most people who use that word are parrots. As such I have posted a related image.
"-Trying to get value of prove thyself early in the match is a bad macro play from the survivors and will set yourself to fail."
This is extremely false. The better killers like Nurse and Blight can down stupidly fast. You can't finish a solo gen in that time. Two players can however break a 3 gen before it happens.
"i was actually petty enough that i went and counted his W/Ls on his last stream."
I see you fell prey to the Howard Stern effect. Most people want to mention Otz's stream but to be honest the people I see in Otz's stream for the most part were players of a caliber I stopped seeing the second we had MMR turned on. This was incredibly clear when you watch his version of the 30 second afk challenge and True doing the same thing. The survivors absolutely threw about seven or eight games vs Otz and only one game vs True.
The average player does not win well against people who play DBD professionaly as their job. Your tally of his winrate is meaningless. How many games did he play that stream against a stacked 4 man team who all used the same offerings, picked a map and had 2x iri item addons + meta perks? How did that game go?
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The 6.4 patch changed vaulting with several shadow nerfs.
One nerf was that any killer with a power that modifies their vault speed cannot benefit from any perk that modifies vault speed.
Example : Legion, T3 MM and Wesker cannot use Bamboozle anymore to vault faster.
That nerf was aimed at Wesker but massively hurts the other two killers.
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@ByeByeQ said:
Survs eliminate gens so I need to eliminate one of them with three hooks. I get NOTHING for hooking three people one time.
Killers get a lot more value than "NOTHING" from hooks and not just kills. A hooked survivor is not doing gens and neither is the rescuer. Survivors "waste" a lot of time rescuing and healing teammates.
With any perk that relies on downs or hooks for them to be activated (especially regression perks like Pain Res, Pop, or Eruption) it is often more beneficial for the killer to go for the fastest down or hook and many times it is better to not tunnel.
-"Killers get a lot more value than "NOTHING" from hooks and not just kills. A hooked survivor is not doing gens and neither is the rescuer. Survivors "waste" a lot of time rescuing and healing teammates."
You might have had a point before the meta became strong medkits and strong healing perks. Maybe boons should have a timed duration when placed (60 seconds).
You're missing the pressure difference. If I have a 3 gen and I play knight or say Nemesis - how are you breaking my three gen? If one person is hooked who stays on the gen if I chase one player? With one person dead the gens are always at -25% repair speed relative to having 4 people alive. With one person dead any hooked or slugged player makes the gen speed go down to -50% potential. Compare that to : they were on a hook for 20 seconds and someone healed them in under 10 seconds with a perk.
Now imagine a scenario where being hooked reduces your healing/totem/repair speed, and door opening speed by 25% for the rest of the game. That would be worth not tunneling if every killer could get fast downs like Nurse/Blight.
@Steakdabait said:
i always loved the "gens need to be slower so i don't have to tunnel" slowing down gens will straight up make tunneling(which smart tunneling is already the best killer strat in the game) even better, since the risk of hard tunneling is that you leave the other 3 survivors free to do gens.
Gens are flying in your games because you're tunneling, so you're letting 3 survivors afk on gens for at the bare minimum of 2 minutes if you magically insta down and hook 1 survivor over and over again.
What happens on RPD if I have 2 gens in the main room and 1 gen on a side room about 8m away? What happens if I camp the hook in the middle room? No gens get done and that survivor will die if you do nothing. Most of the time this is the only time killer is in a power role : a hooked survivor is in the middle of their three gen setup.
You get to camp and defend the gens at the same time. That is the only way for most killers to pressure 4 players at the same time.
-"Gens are flying in your games because you're tunneling, so you're letting 3 survivors afk on gens for at the bare minimum of 2 minutes if you magically insta down and hook 1 survivor over and over again. "
Gens fly because the survivor objective requires zero skill. If you are not mentally challenged then the task is a complete joke. The gens will fly regardless of what you do. Two players on a gen with prove will finish that gen in 45 seconds. The bare minimum for a chase is about 20 seconds per hit. That allows you to set a pace that is impossible for the killer to match.
Chases are too long relative to generator completion times (except in the case of very bad players). There are too many pallets and too many vaults after a certain level of skill. We can go look at truetalent's recent games where he tunnels two people out with 6 hooks. Bad loopers who gen rush can often win the game because all you have to do is repair faster than he can down without making too many mistakes. Perks that speed up healing and gen repair massively cripple the killer.
The difference in map sizes also matters tremendously. Imagine playing on coal tower and you chase someone only to find someone on the next tile over. Now you are chasing two people for the price of one. That is why small maps are fair and large maps are not.
The reality is that gens fly because I'm not playing Nurse and getting a hit every second or third blink.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3301602#Comment_3301602
Two survivors can finish a gen in about 45 seconds with prove thyself. You can't really stop this because it is too fast. You lose 5 gens and get 5 hooks - game is over. T bagging commences.
So they can do 2 gens in 90 seconds, or... 2 gens in 90 seconds.
Prove Thyself is a tactical benefit in being able to handle a tactically critical gen a bit more effectively, but it does not affect gen speeds. In fact, since PT only comes into play when survivors group up on the same gen, it gives the killer opportunity to exert more pressure. After all, he's interrupting both survivors when he gets there.
Which I've also suggested as an option for improving things for the killer's side: Reverse the co-op speed penalty. Increase base gen time and then increase co-op speeds to off-set it, so that it's easier for killers to exert more pressure. But guess what? You can't have that as long as camping and tunnelling still exist, because it would be a direct and very hefty buff to those tactics.
You need to play a game that has a power role character to see what a power role is. In F13 you can find someone and kill them instantly. That's a power role. Nurse and Blight - ok sure that's a power role. Doctor? Hell no.
IIRC, Doctor had one of the higher kill rates at high end play. At least he did before MMR, he was top dog back then. Even over Blight.
But that doesn't matter, because that's not what 'power role' is about. You're talking about balance, but that's not what this is. Survivors must respond to the killer's action, and the killer is the one who steers that. Therefor, the killer is the power role.
He never had a chance to win. SWF is too strong. And the buffs the wraith had during this time got rolled back so that killer would fare even worse now.
He had every chance to win. Or if he didn't, the majority of survivors don't, either. But he got to play, and he got to play the full part of killer. That's something survivors can't take away. But it IS something the killer can take away from survivors.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3301616#Comment_3301616
if you as a survivor have to expect that tunneling and/or camping is gonna happen the only way to win is to do gens extremely efficiently. (It is a self-enforcing circle of misery - but the thing is: survivors are actually at a disatvantage in this 'efficiency race' simply because tunneling doesn't cost the killer any limited resources while BNP are a pretty scarce resource and other suitable TB add-ons are, at the very least, a limited resource).
This reminded me of another point: As many killers keep saying, they'll react to gens going fast by tunnelling/camping, but another issue is that survivors don't have the option of running 'genrush' responsively.
If you go into a trial and spend the first two minutes opening a chest and doing some totems, and then you find out the killer is tunnelling/camping, it's too late to genrush. You're not catching up. Survivors don't have any catch-up options, so if they fall behind, they stay behind, and usually end up 3-4Kd. So if you do gens 'inefficiently', you are legitimately just handing the killer the option to win on a whim.
-"So they can do 2 gens in 90 seconds, or... 2 gens in 90 seconds."
That's a very obtuse point of view considering the gen defense perks we have now are based on one survivor finishing them without voice coms. Eruption and Overcharge are largely pointless if you run away and tell your team to finish your gen while you are being chased. The second killers have the ability to undo a completed generator then it would matter - but that's likely never going to change.
-"Doctor had one of the higher kill rates at high end play. At least he did before MMR, he was top dog back then. Even over Blight."
Stop and listen to what you're trying to say here. Doctor is better than blight at high MMR? You keep saying things that show you know less and less about the game (killer is the power role - kek). Blight was a weak killer when people didn't know about S ,J, Z flicks or hug tech. remove all that and yea he will be a "meh killer" after his addons get balanced to all the other killers. But he will still be better than doctor because he has antiloop and very fast movement.
-"But he got to play, and he got to play the full part of killer."
You say this with either no empathy or the ability to understand high skilled play. If the first option is the case then every noob crying on the forums (according to you) deserves to get tunneled and deserves team members who D/C.
"That tunneled survivor I face camped on the hook had every opportunity to play survivor even though I never went after anyone else and made his rescue/escape impossible." - This is what you are saying.
-"Survivors don't have any catch-up options"
Boons don't save minutes of survivor team time. Neither does prove thyself, streetwise/built to last (and all gen perks), dead hard (and all other exhaustion perks).
Also there are not medkits you can find to heal you. Nor is it possible to get a greentoolbox in a chest. And there can never be a key in a chest- oh wait that is in fact a possibility and you simply don't understand the game (or don't want it to be balanced).
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@Halloulle said:
Well. From a game health perspective as many players as possible should have a good match experience.
Two issues with tunneling in that regard.
1) This game is intended as a 4v1 with the odds significantly changing once it becomes a 3v1, meaning it's effectively game over for survivors once that happens and it's not late midgame (~1gen left) or endgame. As such consistently turning a game into a 3v1 at 5, 4 or 3 gens left leads to a consistently bad match experience for 4 out of 5 players.
moot counter argument: "But with all the genrushing there are only one or two gens left by the time a survivor has been tunneled out!" - What else are survivors supposed to do? Wait patiently and staying away from gens? All they can do is hold M1. --- Imbedded "but they all bring BNP!" ... No. They don't. - There is a focus to complete gens quickly, true - but again: if you as a survivor have to expect that tunneling and/or camping is gonna happen the only way to win is to do gens extremely efficiently. (It is a self-enforcing circle of misery - but the thing is: survivors are actually at a disatvantage in this 'efficiency race' simply because tunneling doesn't cost the killer any limited resources while BNP are a pretty scarce resource and other suitable TB add-ons are, at the very least, a limited resource).
2) This game is inteded to be engaging for 5 people. In the case of tunneling only two players are actively engaged in gameplay for the vast majority of the match.
But to answer the question: Since you as a player are not obligated to guarantee game health there is no specific reason, other than the game being a better place if people are a chad and still do what they can to cover the dev's behinds when it comes to game health.
Then again, I think the question is somewhat missing the point anyway: It should be "Why shouldn't killers *be able to* tunnel" --- and that is very much a game dev decision.
-"From a game health perspective as many players as possible should have a good match experience."
And almost nobody considers the killer perspective. It's not a fun game vs efficient players. You are supposed to get around 9 hooks by the time 5 generators are done. Efficient players can make generators be done by the time you have about 4 hooks. That is a game design problem that needed to be addressed years ago. In reality no perk/item/second character should speed a generator by more than 10%. Toolboxes probably need to become : sabotage only with the exception that a BNP eats your toolbox and gives a gen boost.
For years there has been a problem in that chases can be 20 seconds for a hit (noobs), 40 seconds for a hit (medium skill players), or two minutes (experts in a SWF). This should be more like 20/40/50 for the game to have standardization. The best players should not be running twice as long as everyone else. They should be running 10 or 15 seconds longer. The only thing that would make that fair if you can run longer vs the killer is to make the gens take longer - (which nobody wants). Or we need to only use overpowered killers relative to all others like Nurse/Blight (until some universal map travel ability is added for killers that survivors cannot use - see MHW with tunnels too big for the player but giant monsters could use).
-"What else are survivors supposed to do?"
The problem with the current game loop is that as a survivor you stand still and work on a generator. With efficient play you run as soon as your SWF buddy tells you - before you are supposed to know to run. That extra 10 seconds ruins the chase experience (once again a SWF problem). There are 4 survivor who work generators 4x faster than the killer's regression. That's very simple math to make the game impossible for killer with zero gen perks. The only working solution is gen defense + tunneling.
Killer should almost certainly have a 1:1 regression speed if 4 survivors are alive. Every time one dies you half that regression. Or There should be a base ruin effect that is 100% regression when you get off a generator with 4 survivors alive. Every time someone dies this effect is halved (and is removed if two players are dead). Either option would work fine.
What's another alternative people suggested along time ago? Limit healing to two full health per game. At the end of the game you can't get healed so chases are automatically short eventually. Getting hit actually matters and you can't just slap down a boon that lets your team heal 30 times (literal numbers in some games).
Here's a new idea I've never seen suggested :Imagine that a survivor can't just heal anywhere after the first heal. Imagine if they had to look and find an altar, a mark or something around the map unique to them by visual inspection. To complete the second heal they have to find that thing. That will take about two minutes. Each character would have to find their own special mark but you could say to a team: I saw a mark under the door frame in main, or I saw an altar near the corner gen of main. Think about it like a "freddy clock". If you want to heal you have to run to that thing, interact for 10 seconds and then you are allowed to heal. That way you can have unlimited healing but you have to go through hoops first.
-"What else are survivors supposed to do?"
Nothing- because the devs can't seem to incorporate imaginative gameplay that balances the game and makes them have "more stuff to do". Boons are a complete joke because they are not immediately destroyed forever once kicked. At a bare minimum the killer should be able to break a boon's bones if not using any hexes as a base kit feature (or kick it like now if he is).
Boons would only be fair if the killer had a 5th hex slot perk. Everyone would run shattered hope. And then one day nobody would run boons - so killers would run some random hex. Then people would start using boons again and the cycle would repeat.
I understand the devs not wanting gens needing parts because it would make the game too similar to F13. But there are so many options that could easily be added to make it so you're not just holding a generator's hand the whole game.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3301449#Comment_3301449
I see efficient gen rushing every game. It does not have to be that specific build. The first chase costs a minimum of two generators vs good players. The only time it does not is when it costs 3 gens; ok I kid - sometimes I down someone right next to a 90% generator so I kick that gen then hook them neaby and camp the gen and the hook for double value.
If you're not talking about the build, then you are not talking about 'genrushing': you're talking about survivors doing gens -at all-.
Killer is the power role when it's your first week playing vs noobs who have never played the game (and everyone plays solo). Until you get to "average" players then the game becomes equal.
When you get good at survivor they are the power role. This is why every DBD tournament heavily restricts survivor perks items and character repeats.
This shows that you know very little about the game or play it at a very low level.
No, that's you not understanding what a power role is. The killer forces survivors off of gens. The killer can direct the chase. It is way harder for survivors to force the killer than the other way around. Even if the killer is losing, they are still the power role.
You don't even look at high level play do you.
At what point was he impeded in his gameplay? He got his chases, he got his slaps in, he got perk usage, he got his power usage, he's got everything you are promised when you play killer. He just didn't win.
You -could- try to argue that he didn't get a hook so he didn't get that part, but if you have to reach to the literal best team in the world to reach that point, your argument is divorced from the game at large.
'Oh, but tournament play'
Tournaments are for spectators. Not for players. You want to use that as your baseline, you might as well quit the game, because the only way that is going to get what it wants is for the rest of the game to die.
"If you're not talking about the build, then you are not talking about 'genrushing"
Two survivors can finish a gen in about 45 seconds with prove thyself. You can't really stop this because it is too fast. You lose 5 gens and get 5 hooks - game is over. T bagging commences.
-"No, that's you not understanding what a power role is. The killer forces survivors off of gens. The killer can direct the chase"
You need to play a game that has a power role character to see what a power role is. In F13 you can find someone and kill them instantly. That's a power role. Nurse and Blight - ok sure that's a power role. Doctor? Hell no.
"At what point was he impeded in his gameplay? He got his chases, he got his slaps in, he got perk usage, he got his power usage, he's got everything you are promised when you play killer"
He never had a chance to win. SWF is too strong. And the buffs the wraith had during this time got rolled back so that killer would fare even worse now.
DBD is not a fair game when only 2 killers are viable.
-"Tournaments are for spectators. Not for players."
Tournaments do one thing really well : they nerf SWF and limit them so they can't be abusive. Usually this means no perk/item/character repeats (no offerings are allowed). The problem is that efficient teams ruin the game : either killers tunneling or survivors rushing gens.
"Regular" players run a killer for 40 seconds and then get hit while bad players run a killer for 20 seconds or less and get a hit. The best players can sometimes lead killers on a chase for 90 seconds (thanks to team play and dead hard). That only becomes fair if the killer has something to speed up chases or make the gens take forever. Since the killer doesn't have those things he has to tunnel someone out of the game.
Go play VHS and try to queue as teen. Nobody is playing the game. Teen was fun but the monster role was miserable. DBD has been in the same predicament for 6 years with most of the killer cast. There was a killer strike in the first year and around that time it took 15 mins to get a game as survivor. Had another 4v1 game come out around then DBD would have died out. The same could be said on DBD's release wit the infinite window debacle.
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@Predated said:
So let say, you get an early hook, you run Pain Resonance and DMS and all 3 survivors were working on 1 gen. Congrats, you gained a ton of pressure and that is already a huge reward on its own.
But now a teammate unsafely unhooks their teammate. 6 gens are without any realistic progress and the 1 gen with progress is still blocked for 10 seconds.
What is the reason to not tunnel someone here? Its extremely low risk, and the rewards are huge. Just hit them ASAP in case of OtR, pick them up ASAP to eat their DS if they have any(which is not really likely), and hook them again.
We have an extremely unpleasant action for a player that they have no control over, a situation that gives a huge benefit for the killer and practically 0 risk involved. The killer already got a huge reward, and now only gets more.
I really feel like it would be healthy that survivors in the early game(first 2-3 gens) have a basekit DS, BUT to also reduce unsafe unhooking(as it would be hugely beneficial and abusable for SWF), give killers the ability to expose unhooker(or better yet, anyone within a 16 meter radius) for 60 seconds if they can hit the unhooked survivor during the basekit BT after an unhook. This way you still have a slowdown as the unhooked survivor has to mend, and a guaranteed short chase with the unhooker.
It would add a deterrence for early tunneling, make games more enjoyable and give killers still the ability to snowball if they get an early hook, without negatively impacting the first hooked survivor.
-"There needs to be a basekit deterrence for early tunneling"
Where's the killer's basekit deterrent for survivors tunneling gens? Deadlock should be basekit. The perk should extend the lockout for 30 seconds. There should also be a rollback feature added so you cannot get 2 gens done even if both are done at exactly the same time.
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@hex_uwu said:
Have you considered that maybe if you have to tunnel and camp to "win" at "high MMR" maybe you're in the wrong skill bracket? Maybe you're playing at above your paygrade? MMR isn't a ranking system, you don't get brownie points for being higher and miserable. Maybe the Nemesis who needs to tunnel at 5 gens shouldn't be at the same MMR as the 12 hook nurse who hits every single blink attack perfectly, the same way the Feng who loads into the game with a key and hides with 0 hooks while her whole team dies shouldn't be at the same MMR as the Yui who ran the killer for 2 gens and completed a further 2 gens herself.
You're stuck in a vicious circle of tunnelling for kills, increasing your MMR, going up against skilled opponents and crying about it. If people just played the game normally and stopped treating MMR like a reward system or something to brag about (ironic how it's always people complaining about how hard the game is who believe they're at high MMR) I'm sure a lot more fun could be had.
TLDR; Skill issue. Needing to make a 4v1 game into a 3v1 as soon as you load into the match is actually embarrassing. Customs against bots are there for a reason if you wanna play on easy mode.
"Have you considered that maybe if you have to tunnel and camp to "win" at "high MMR" maybe you're in the wrong skill bracket?"
Have you considered that it's unfair for certain killers to play beyond a certain level of skill? An average Blight will easily beat the best Doctor in the world in a tournament. That's messed up. MMR is more likely the problem than my skill level. I can play the broken killers and smash teams I would lose when playing lesser killers. This is not rocket science.
-"Maybe the Nemesis who needs to tunnel at 5 gens shouldn't be at the same MMR as the 12 hook nurse who hits every single blink attack perfectly"
Maybe the game should be set up with weight classes. You don't have heavy weight boxers fighting flyweights.
Give all killers a MMR cap and no matter how much you win you can't play past that number. Set every killer that isn't nurse and blight around 1500 (lower if the killer is worse). That would be a good first step to making people want to play killer at high MMR.
"Needing to make a 4v1 game into a 3v1 as soon as you load into the match is actually embarrassing"
I guarantee you if I pick one of the bottom 5 killers for you to play with no addons on a map of my choosing vs my SWF team with the best of everything you will lose. And you'll look really bad - except that you were dealt an impossible hand.
Against efficient players you either tunnel out one player with a bad killer and hope you can win or you just skip that entirely and just play the easy killers and win without limits.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3301422#Comment_3301422
...for what perks?
BBQ is kinda eh.
Franklin's I like but it isn't that good.
Knockout is bad.
LF is better than Billy.
Deadlock - locked behind Pinhead (never been in shrine)
Eruption- locked on Nemesis
Call of Brine - Locked on Ring
See a pattern?
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@MaTtRoSiTy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3301431#Comment_3301431
*Loser not "looser".
See this is a strawman argument, as nobody rational is complaining if survivors rush hooks in your face that you should just give a save for free (though if they get it I tend to take the trade). If a survivor insists on tanking a hit instead of making their escape, then if the killer decides to give them the aggro they so desperately seem to want... so be it.
So you can argue with yourself regarding your examples as they are not what the sane majority is frustrated with.
What is killing the game is the increasing number of bad killers who just camp first hook so survivors are forced to attempt a trade, though instead of going after the unhooker they hard tunnel the survivor who just got unhooked therefore preventing them from even being able to play the match. People will not put up with this continuously and what happens is people just stop playing the game and as killer you can impact 4x people by ruining matches like this.
The same applies to toxic survivors who cant just play the game without BMing the killer, nobody is going to keep doing that and ultimately many stop playing. Both are wrong but the killer is unique in that they ruin the match for 4 other people and the survivor role cannot retaliate against this tactic.
-"What is killing the game is the increasing number of bad killers who just camp first hook so survivors are forced to attempt a trade, though instead of going after the unhooker they hard tunnel the survivor who just got unhooked therefore preventing them from even being able to play the match."
Why is the killer engaging in that behavior? I will always do exactly that if I have lost two generators. It is the only way I can catch up. Again look at the math. Compare 2/5 gens done vs 2/9 hooks. Who is closer to their objective? IF I tunnel one person then I might actually be closer because the game is radically different with only three living players.
@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3301177#Comment_3301177
So you're not talking about them 'doing gens efficiently', you're talking about them bringing in a gen-rush build with Hyperfocus/Stake-out and BNPs. But how often do you see those?
And yet they scream on here about how 'unfun' it is when Killers play to win and demand the developers 'punish' or 'de-incentivize' tactics they don't like. IE: Camping. Tunneling. Slugging.
And there's a very good reason why. As much as the forums are loathe to admit it, the killer is the power role. They dictate the game. And that has a knock-on effect where these corner-cutting strategies cause the game to break down.
It doesn't matter how badly survivors try to rush those gens, no matter how many BNPs they take, or how aggressively they use Hyperfocus or Resilience even, it does not impede the killer's core gameplay. They still get to use any perk, and do anything they like. This doesn't go the other way though, as a tunnelling killer with relegate one survivor to 'chase only' and three survivors to 'no chase at all'. So the survivors only get to play a fraction of the game.
Facecamping is worse in that regard, as NO ONE gets to play the game proper, including the killer.
This is why 'genrushing' is not comparable to tunnelling/camping/slugging. That's not to say genrush builds shouldn't be removed, as they are a balancing obstacle, but they're not a gameplay obstacle.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3301250#Comment_3301250
The issue is that all this talk of reducing 'hyperefficiency' has been put solely to the survivors, because when 6.1 rolled around, all we got were buffs to tunnelling/camping, and the discussion surrounding those things has not changed at all. Any time anyone brings up that these are a problem, there will be killers rushing in to adamantly defend these things.
Any kind of talk about lowering the stakes in the game right now -has- to start with tunnelling and camping. I've said for a very long time that those are the biggest hang-ups for the game's balance and gameplay, but you can't get any idea through these forums. Hell, look at what happened to Reassurance, a perk that was set to actually severely damage the potency of camping: It got showered with complaints about it working against camping, and was subsequently stripped of its ability to do so.
These discussions go nowhere as long as people can't agree to let camping and tunnelling go. As long as people keep defending them to the death, the survivors will have to be balanced up to them and thus be too strong to 12-hook against. As much as people like to say 'tunnelling and camping are necessary', the flipside is that 'hyperfocus and BNPs are necessary'.
6.1 basically bought into the idea of 'just buff killers and they'll tunnel/camp less!' and it backfired tremendously. So this time, we're going to -start- with tunnelling and camping needing to be punished.
-"So you're not talking about them 'doing gens efficiently', you're talking about them bringing in a gen-rush build with Hyperfocus/Stake-out and BNPs. But how often do you see those?"
I see efficient gen rushing every game. It does not have to be that specific build. The first chase costs a minimum of two generators vs good players. The only time it does not is when it costs 3 gens; ok I kid - sometimes I down someone right next to a 90% generator so I kick that gen then hook them neaby and camp the gen and the hook for double value.
-"As much as the forums are loathe to admit it, the killer is the power role."
Killer is the power role when it's your first week playing vs noobs who have never played the game (and everyone plays solo). Until you get to "average" players then the game becomes equal.
When you get good at survivor they are the power role. This is why every DBD tournament heavily restricts survivor perks items and character repeats.
This shows that you know very little about the game or play it at a very low level.
-"It doesn't matter how badly survivors try to rush those gens ... it does not impede the killer's core gameplay"
You don't even look at high level play do you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3J-WImbQIsAnd this team is limited by tournament rules. I played a team on this level tonight and they could bring whatever they wanted. They stacked luck offerings and picked the map. In a tournament the map is picked by the system to pick a fair map. This video is old as it shows wraith pre nerf but you can see the idea clearly.
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@HugTheHag said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3301427#Comment_3301427
I'm not suggesting you throw the game, or try to get easy wins. I'm suggesting you start caring a little bit less about winning a bit more about your own fun. Why play at all if 75% of your time makes you feel frustrated, bored or numb, for a measly 25% that is exciting and fun ?
That being said, it's all your prerogative. I can tell when outside perspective is not welcome.
Hope your games get more interesting in the future !
If I play an easier killer like Nurse or Blight the game is a joke. You smoke those other teams and move along to the next set of teams.
That's not how the game should be. Nerf the best killers. Nerf SWF. Make gens have a forced base mechanic slowdown (like Deadlock base kit- the perk would lock out gens for an extra 30 seconds meaning it would have 60 seconds of lockout). Make a mechanic so someone who has been hooked twice can't be killed unless X number of gens are done [Still not the million dollar idea].
You and I are playing a different game. IF you could log into my steam account you would hate it. I could play my brother's account and get easy smurf wins for probably a year if I rotated the killers to keep my MMR from spiking on any one killer.
It's boring tunneling out one person but it's necessary for balance vs efficient players. That fundamentally needs to change. The real problem is that survivor mains say : tunneling needs to stop when the killer does it but it's ok when I tunnel out his generators.
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@NewPlayer100102 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/358950/why-should-i-not-tunnel
I want to know what your "simple idea to fix the problem is..." This game has a lot of fundamental issues and even if they never get resolved the conversations about potential solutions are fun, especially if the contributors make an attempt at bias control, which I feel you have.
I must admit that I usually just throw the match when I encounter one of the SWF groups that would require tunneling. I just don't find the hatred worth the effort anymore.
Good ideas don't come free.
@wakwak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3301180#Comment_3301180
Like I said, it's understandable at times, but if you are determined going into every game that you are going to tunnel someone, regardless of how the game is progressing, I think you are a bad player.
Look at the survivor objective. You work a gen to half way and it gets reset to 0% so now you have nothing. If I hook one survivor three times I kill a survivor. If I hook three survivors one time I get nothing. As a base kit change hooking three survivors one time needs to be better than 3x hooking one person.
@not_Queef said:
Well yeah if you can only win a 3v1 then I guess you have no choice.
Bit embarrassing tho.
Tunneling is not embarassing. It's shaming the killer for playing the most efficient way possible as a response to survivors doing the same thing. The second a killer can turn generators off so that they can be undone then it might make sense to not tunnel. But that's not how it works.
@Bran said:
There isn't any reason not to. It's the easiest and sometimes smartest choice.
It's easy to tell who plays killer and who does not. Should survivors work a generator to 33% and then get all gens to 33% before they get a single gen to 66%? No. Why should killers play in an inefficient manner just because it hurts survivor feelings? It hurts the killers feelings if they get gen rushed and they had 2 hooks.
@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3301080#Comment_3301080
"If Survivors can do gens as efficiently as possible; Why should Killers be punished for doing the same?"
What options do survivors have to do gens 'inefficiently'?
Survivors are unreasonable if they expect a killer to not tunnel when they want to tunnel generators.
I will agree not to tunnel if survivors do gens inefficiently. They must work all generator to 33% and once all 7 gens are at 33% they may get one generator to 66% progress. If any gen falls below 33% then they have to stop go back and get all the gens back to 33% progress.
But since nobody ever plays like that except noobs the devs don't balance how quickly it takes efficient players to finish the primary objective.
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@Pulsar said:
Hmmm, no.
The simple reality is that you DON'T need to tunnel in order to win the vast majority of your matches. It's simply easier to tunnel than it is to not tunnel. I get it, I do it too. That's one of the main reasons I push so hard against tunneling is because of how effective it is for me.
Again see the flow chart.
Tunnel one person means I have an easy game and survivors are under stress. Why should I be the stressed out player?
Survs eliminate gens so I need to eliminate one of them with three hooks. I get NOTHING for hooking three people one time.
At low MMR you are 100% correct. But vs efficient teams it's just not possible to win on "meh killers".
@HugTheHag said:
I might be wrong, but I think if you need to tunnel and have 3/4 unenjoyable games to have one that is fun to you, you might just want to stick to playing without tunneling for a little while to lower your mmr a bit. That way you'll be back in a bracket where you see variety in gameplay and the games are naturally close without either side sweating too much.
To me, needing to tunnel to win games is a symptom that you're past your ideal niche and it might be time to relax a bit. Doubling down on tunneling will only make you need to resort to it more, leading to more unenjoyable game.
You're suggesting I throw the game on purpose so I get easy wins. No thanks. The game is not a fair contest vs SWF unless you are playing a very strong killer. The game is not fair if you are on a big map unless you are Nurse/Blight or a mobility killer.
The bottom line issue is that Nurse vs SWF is fair on any map. Clown vs SWF might be fair if he has pinky finger on a small map but even his best addon will not win on a large map. It's so dumb.
There is zero balance for high skill play.
@wakwak said:
If you think you need to, have to, literally no other option besides tunneling to win a match, imo, you kinda suck at the game in general and are using tunneling like a crutch. Tunneling is understandable at times, but if you're trying to force someone out of the game asap at 5 gens all the time because you are so confident you can't manage a normal 4v1 for a minute without everything falling apart around you, then your confidence is well placed in your inadequacy. But hey, that's just me.
So by extension you're saying Otz and Truetalent suck. When they are in the same situation they tunnel to win. But a 9k hour and 7k hour streamer suck because you said so - ok.
We could say anyone that needs to bring an item sucks. We could say anyone that need to pick a map sucks. We could say anyone that only wins in a 3 or 4 man SWF absolutely sucks.
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DBD has moved in a direction so that premium killers = pay to win perks.
Leatherface was made better than Billy so people would buy LF. It's probably that simple.
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@Grum said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3300568#Comment_3300568
Two of those are immediately useless if the killer just hits you off hook; and DS buys you two seconds worth of distance.
Here's the thing : DS is meant as a means to potentially buy room to escape. It's up to the people you are playing with to really provide that. It is no longer a solo get out of jail free card.
The other idea to combat tunneling is a 3 perk build to rush gens with an exhaustion perk. Pick any three gen rush perks (or two and a boon) and rush gens. If you don't completely suck your team will win if they follow the same principle.
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@Dream_Whisper said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3300565#Comment_3300565
That, or if they are not going to fix map and add more grass, especially indoor maps. The next best solution, is for make bear trap invisible from a certain range, make it 1 to 4 Meters away, unless you are in chase.
It would be nice to make traps more invisible and hard to spot out, so that Trapper has some element of surprise to his power.
The problem with traps is that they are not easy to hide it, as alot of the most effective way to hide it is gone; placing in corners in loops is usually not a option as experienced Survivors will figure you trap the loop and work around it or abandon it to go to next loop that isn't trap.
Even if we make tar bottle basekit, the traps are too easy to spot and usually place it most predictable spots such as strong pallets or windows. It almost rare to herd a Survivor into your trap, especially the unpredictable ones.
The reality is that trapper is a weak killer because there is no consequence for disarming traps. For the trapper to be elevated to a viable state he needs:
1) at least 4 traps in hand base (and start with 4 in hand)
2) Base kit Oily coil - disarming a trap = injury for survivors
3) Option to only play on grass maps unless you use an offering or click a "I want to play all maps" check box.
That leads room for a new Iri addon. Know what that could be? Traps are literally invisible (and cant be seen except by rainbow map).
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@bunnyfengenthusiast said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3300566#Comment_3300566
Starstruck doesn't work on Blight's attacks. Surely you meant Spirit?
Spirit using starstuck is fine. She's not in the same league as the other two (especially if you make her recharge addons be recharge not duration and nerf her pink addon).
The other two should simply not even be allowed to use it.
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@AverageAshEnjoyer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3299539#Comment_3299539
bro i see it every other game
No joke. I don't even use aura detection and I see a lot of people using the perk.
It seems very dumb that distortion charges mid chase. Anyone who remembers sprint burst with a 20 second cooldown that recharged before exhaustion was put into the game will surely agree.
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@Predated said:
So let say, you get an early hook, you run Pain Resonance and DMS and all 3 survivors were working on 1 gen. Congrats, you gained a ton of pressure and that is already a huge reward on its own.
But now a teammate unsafely unhooks their teammate. 6 gens are without any realistic progress and the 1 gen with progress is still blocked for 10 seconds.
What is the reason to not tunnel someone here? Its extremely low risk, and the rewards are huge. Just hit them ASAP in case of OtR, pick them up ASAP to eat their DS if they have any(which is not really likely), and hook them again.
We have an extremely unpleasant action for a player that they have no control over, a situation that gives a huge benefit for the killer and practically 0 risk involved. The killer already got a huge reward, and now only gets more.
I really feel like it would be healthy that survivors in the early game(first 2-3 gens) have a basekit DS, BUT to also reduce unsafe unhooking(as it would be hugely beneficial and abusable for SWF), give killers the ability to expose unhooker(or better yet, anyone within a 16 meter radius) for 60 seconds if they can hit the unhooked survivor during the basekit BT after an unhook. This way you still have a slowdown as the unhooked survivor has to mend, and a guaranteed short chase with the unhooker.
It would add a deterrence for early tunneling, make games more enjoyable and give killers still the ability to snowball if they get an early hook, without negatively impacting the first hooked survivor.
It's already in the game : it's called Free 10 seconds of borrowed time on unhook.
Not enough? Run Off the record. Not enough? Run DS. Not enough? Run Sprint Burst or Lithe. While Dead Hard will give you 3 health states on the first chase you will get nothing if he hits you one moment after your feet hit the ground (making you start the chase in deep wound).
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@bunnyfengenthusiast said:
Title. I don't think I need to say more.
Let's say what you are thinking and actually fix the problem.
Blight and Nurse should have the perk locked out as a potential perk for them. /fixed.
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@Dream_Whisper said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3300221#Comment_3300221
Interesting, but too strong.
Trapper is F Tier when it comes to the many counterplay with him; especially with SWF. Here's what I will do:
*Trapper should have access to all of his traps, by either one of these three basekit options.
Option A: Basekit Purple Sack Addon, without the penalty of leaving traps stuck where you place them.
Option B: Make Bear Traps spawn more often in the center of the map, and no traps should spawn in the corner of the map.
Option C: Traps only spawn in lockers, Trapper can reload just like Huntress/Trickster; yet the catch is there is maximum bear trap limit to how many traps you can have in the map 6-8, I think. Any disarmed traps will respawn in the locker, everytime you reload.
*Injured Survivors Falling for traps need to be severely punished, as there is no risk for Falling for it, besides notifying the killer.
Option A: Injured Survivors get either the Deep wound, Broken, or exhausted status effect upon falling for it. These afflictions can be ignored, if the other Survivors are nearby and come assist their Trapped Injured teammate.
Option B: Injured Survivors can still rescue themselves, but now be at risk of being put into the dying state. Unless a teammate is nearby to assist them escape. Basically make the honing stone purple addon basekit, but only to injured Survivors getting trapped and escaping on their own.
*Traps are way too easy to spot, as the new graphical updates in maps which kill grass and more bright maps. Not to mention, survivors items like keys and Maps can be used to located all of Trapper's traps.
Here's what we should do:
Option A: Bring back tall grass, especially near windows, loops, etc. Anything in the environment to help cleverly camouflage the traps placements.
Option B: Make Bear Traps disappear on sight, until a Survivor goes with a small range within a trap location and it will be revealed from invisibility. A Survivor outside of chase can easily spot the traps in advance and disarmed; while survivors in chase will need to be more mindful of where Trapper set his traps or go to loops outside his "territory" to maximize survival chances.
Option C: Remove Survivors's abilities to detect traps with items like Key/ maps. Another nerf, but it makes Trapper strong and not exploitable by SWF with items.
Other quality of life improvement/significant buffs to make Trapper much more better and efficiency, I would love to see.
*Trapper's successful traps would give the Killer a Temporarily Haste speed duration; which gives the killer bit of reward in catching up to survivors, everytime they screw up and fall for a trap. You can used the limited speed duration, to get to the trap Survivor location if they are across the map; or used the speed to finished up a chase you are trying to finished or get a free hit. The effects can last for 3-5 seconds; and give him a minor 5% increases movement speed.
*If Trapper gets a pick up Bear Traps from lockers added to the game, I would love to see new mechanic in which you can set a active trap inside a locker, for malicious plays agaisnt locker survivors whom don't suspect the locker to be dangerous. Imagine, how Victor from Twins can shut a Survivor inside a locker; but in this case; a Survivor gets injured or even down if they jumped inside a rigged locker or even trap for limited time.
*This is a bug problem, but I don't think Survivor should abuse the whole "I am disarming the trap but not really disarming it" so created a opening for a 2nd Survivor to walk right through the trap, as their teammates "disarmed" it. If thay gets patched, and make survivors walking through armed traps with teammate help impossible. That would be fantastic.
*Okay, now that I listed all the buffs, I will add one major nerf, to help combat Basement Trapper, as it not easy for saving survivors. That one nerf is Bear Traps can no longer be place inside door opening. Pallets outside the killer shack, and even window should be fine. Or at least, make the basements range in which you cannot place a trap in a certain range. And if it detect pre set up traps, the traps will be disarmed automatically.
"Traps are way too easy to spot, as the new graphical updates in maps which kill grass and more bright maps"
Not to mention almost everyone is running reshade which makes the game look like an episode of scooby doo. Seariously go watch a big survivor main's stream and you will see the most vivid ridiculous colors when looking at the map and its background (to say nothing of the survivor otufits).
Furthermore Trapper should have an option to "only play maps with grass". Map doesn't have lots of grass? He can keep a box unchecked and map offerings cannot send him to those places unless he uses the offering.
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They have changed many times - thanks to spaghetti code.
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@Beatricks said:
Man I wish people stopped wanting every killer to be Nurse/Blight/Spirit tier.
ALL the killers need to be within one tier of each other. Nurse/Blight (spirit with best addons) are "S" tier. The next 10 best killers are "A" tier. And then there are a handful of "C" listers who are absolute trash like Doctor.
It's fine for Nurse and Blight to be "S" tier if everyone else is "A"tier. Nerf Nurse/Blight to be "A tier" (and spirit's addons) AND nerf SWF. Nerf SWF by limiting them to no Character, Item , Perk or Offering repeats. Lock loadouts except outfits during queue.
@Bardon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3297196#Comment_3297196
"look at feedback from before his nerf Hillbilly was unfair and overbearing this is undeniable. "
Okay, if it's that undeniable then you can provide a few examples denoting how and why he was unfair.
Because that certainly doesn't fit my recollection so it's most certainly not "undeniable". I do deny it. Given that you're the one making the claim, the burden of proof is on you.
I honestly look forward to seeing what you come up with! BTW, Sluzzy posts do not count. :)
Billy was unfair in a bad way (too strong) in 2016 when he had the ability to flick and make a chainsaw attack at a different angle than his chainsaw sprint. Billy is unfair in 2022 in the opposite direction (too weak).
He has :
- nerfed steering (his steering limits were changed years ago)
- been given a roar for no reason when sawing
- lost any remotely good addon
- lost the ability to "zoom" around the map from gen to gen due to map design changes
- to play more precise than nurse/Blight for a lesser outcome. So why bother?
Funny Enough Ardetha comes to the same conclusion in his video.
Insta Saw honestly really wasnt even that bad after they changed tinkerer. Also you need to go back and look at 2016 maps to see what kinda BS we had. Anyone remember the Old iron works of misery infinite window?
This is a picture of my account so you know how much I spent playing this killer in the past.
We should really just revert Billy back to 2016 version (post flick nerf). Add the overheat mechanic so that : If Billy uses the saw so that his terror radius overlaps a hooked survivor then his saw will have an overheat mechanic. Make there be no addons that affect overheat.
And then this killer will be worth playing again.
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@Blueberry said:
What do you do, if anything?
I typically load them up on twitch to see if they're streaming, if they are then I mute and minimize it so that after the match I can rewatch it to see it from their perspective and where I messed up.
I don't look at their loadouts, stream snipe or any of that manner whatsoever. However I've come to find that basically every single streamer basically accuses you of stream sniping them ie cheating and thinks it's "weird" that anyone would see if their streaming and then mute/minimize to watch the match after.
So as a follow up, do you think this is weird that someone would do this? Do you do this a lot?
I was under the impression that most people do this to rewatch their matches and see what they had to say afterwards. It seems really improbable to me that many people would literally bring up their stream on a second monitor to watch and listen to them play and talk all while simultaneously listening to and playing their own match. That just seems silly/impractical and way rarer then I find other streamers seem to act like it happens.
I load up their stream and see if they are in a SWF. If so then I listen to the stream and try to learn what their perks are before the game.
Listening to SWF coms nearly completely nullifies the SWF advantage.
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"Basically, a team in SWF is just a bunch of buddies playing in voice."
The last "group of baddies" I was playing against had one player on console so they specifically did not look like a 4 man group. They ran 4 copies of reassurance and two boons.
The abilty to repeat perks made pressuring hooks impossible and made inflicting injuries take longer than healing them. At the end of the game they said I did not pressure gens. That's literally impossible vs 4 efficient people with voice coms unless you are playing Blight or Nurse on specific maps (or the opposing team is very very bad or made a massive mistake).
-"Again, I don't see how the fact that the nurse has 2 blinks at the beginning of the game is a problem."
Technically it isn't a problem when you compare her with blight. The second you realize Trapper exists then there is a problem. At a quick count something like 18/30 killers have no way to move around the map quickly. That is only ok if we allow those killers the option to not play any map larger than 9000m² unless they check a box somewhere. Large maps are only fair for mobility killers and the rare instance where pig gets more use out of her traps with more searches because the map is HUGE.
Trapper is something of a binary killer in that his power is truly only effective if there is grass. No grass? Ok then I guess my traps only have 25% effectiveness. Imagine if Nurse played 50% of games on the Dcotor map. Imagine if we added the limitation : teleporting through solid material reduces how far you can blink (each 1m or less = 3 m of reduced blink distance). That would make nurse super fun to play right? No. And hence that's why I'm not suggesting we do that.
"there is no point in comparing the nurse to another killer who is radically different: they don't work the same way, don't have the same power, nor the same gamedesign."
Your argument is technically true but fails when we consider that the killers all have access to the same perks. Imagine for example if Blight and Nurse get the current version of NOED and every other killer got the 2016 release version. That might be fair to killers like doctor and trapper. It would mean you would see NOED on 28/30 killers approximately 100% of the time which would be unfair for survivors.
Many of the perks we have are limited because Nurse and Blight exist. Nurse should not be able to use Jolt, Make your Choice or Starstruck because she is a superior killer. Meanwhile killers like Doctor and Trapper need all the help they can get.
Compare for example Nurse and Blight using a power like Jolt. They move fast and end chases fast. Compare that to Doctor. He moves slow and takes much longer to get downs. Jolt probably had a cooldown so nobody would use it on nurse. The fix is to make it so she can only us Jolt on a regular swing (not power blink lunge).
If we charted the chase potenial of every killer Nurse might be 99% when used by a skilled player. For the sake of comparison Doctor might be somewhere in the 35-40% range as he has no one hit downs (nor can he safely use STBFL), no movement power and below average anti loop. Generally speaking that's not fair for anyone who wants to play doctor. Either the Doctor needs to play in a lighweight division (no swf, no items , blah blah blah) or Nurse needs to be nerfed so that the differnce between them is more like 10-15% chase potential.
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@InvadeGames said:
trapper is one of my mains and i do really enjoy him and can at times perform well but his power is super RNG and not reliable.
you can easily have matches where not a single trap is triggered or 1 or 2 at most. this makes him often times a pure M1.
the biggest challenge is that he requires set up either at the start or during the game and you spend a lot of time having to pick up traps from frankly ridiculous places in a game where every every second counts. by the time you have traps in spots that actually help you its easy to have almost lost the game and forced to play catch up and hope for an RNG snowball.
What if he had all his traps from the start as basekit. being able to skip the walking simulator part of his gameplay will help him get to the part where he is able to utilize his power and start applying pressure 30 seconds earlier than without. i dont feel this is too strong but might help pull him out of meme status.
Somewhere around 4 would be enough. Giving him all 8 is problematic (see otz and basement nonsense).
Ages ago someone suggested he could search a locker to teleport the most distant non armed trap to him - that's a great idea.
Those two changes would make him fine. Change the purple bag back to +2 traps or maybe even +3 traps.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3299427#Comment_3299427
"(along with hug tech : which has already been confirmed that it will be removed)."
As far as I'm aware it is only confirmed that they wanted to look into it, which is not the same as removing it... So where did you get that part from?
Also if you haven't already watched it, this video of lilithOmen about the topic is quite informative.
Actually funny enough it's literally shown for a moment in the video you linked.
I don't know that guy or watch his content. But what I see is that the good players use hug tech because you can get to spots in fewer bounces. Doing so reduces the time a survivor can respond to the blight's movement. In a near direct quote from Hens : removing Hug tech would make shack much more difficult for blight to handle. That's likely how the developers intended for the killer to work.
When Blight came out he was a crappy killer. In fact he was something of a joke to play against because people were needing to bump 3-4 times to get an angle for attack (think about the context of avoiding a Billy chainsaw).
With hug tech you can do a single bounce and skip 2 bounces to get the correct attack angle. What is the result? You can move in a way you are not supposed to be able to move. You can get hits you are not supposed to get without bouncing twice first. In short you greatly reduce the time for a survivor to be able to respond to your movement.
You can see this very clearly when you see a baby blight around a jungle gym or L/T wall. They need to bounce 3 times to get an attack angle but you already know where he will need to be to hit you in the loop so you reposition so he has to bounce again. That creates another level of counterplay where
Do you know what movement hug tech feels like? It reminds me of the Billy Chainsaw Flick from 2016 where you could charge someone at a 0° angle and perform a 90° flick at the end of the attack. Later after its removal this movement was the inspiration for the Oni killer.
This video also reminds me of vidoes people made when Spirit first came out. In case you didn't know she had collision back then with survivors while phased. So it was common to just zoom around and "feel" the survivors. Lots of people were crying about the potential loss of feeling survivors but it was a good change for balance. I will say that the change of spirit to give survivors directional phase info was just bad. Killer mains going against spirit listened for her footsteps. I guess survivor mains can't be bothered to pay attention to minute sounds.
If you look at Lilith's "how to" guide on Blight he calls the hits around shack walls nearly unavoidable. So which is it? Are flicks and hug tech fun for survivors? No. Does it make Blight extremely easy to play because it removes counterplay chase options for survivors: yes.
It's very clear if you look at the killer power from the intended design that they leave way too much room for you to make movements that do not make the game fair considering how fast he can move.
Not to go too far off topic but Blight probably needs to go down in speed to something like 105%.
And then limit all flicks to 30° from the initial angle of the direction you charge after a bump.
That would take him down from S tier to like B+/A- which would be nearly perfect.
I know exactly what you and most of the Blight mains would say : That will reduce the skill potential of Blight and Make him less fun. Yes that's exactly correct because that's the point (although the fun loss for you is regretable it comes at too much of a cost in terms of fairness to survivors. As Blight with those changes you would be weak relative to survivors in a chase. The loss of being able to break pallets instantly would probably sting the most.
Just imagine it for a moment : a game where Plague without her red vomit is about as threatening as Blight. Both are utterly defeated by pre-drop pallets.