DBDVulture
DBDVulture
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3294174#Comment_3294174
It is holding the game hostage. At some point the game needs to progress. Survivors have to do Gens and try to finish them, even if that means that they might die in the process. And if Survivors are doing that, the Killer has to commit to a chase at some point, because otherwise, THEY are not progressing the game. And yes, even if this means that they might lose the last Gen.
The Objective for the Killer is to kill all Survivors. And prolonging the game to the Time LImit to achieve this is not the way to go.
So yeah, a Killer refusing to try to kill the Survivors to just regress 3 Gens all the time is holding the game hostage, completely regardless if they decide to do that later or plan it from the start. The same like Suvivors are holding the game hostage if they dont try to do Gens.
At some point, both sides have to risk losing in order to progress the game.
Holding the game hostage almost always requires the killer body blocking.
Defending part of the map is fair game. You are not forced to chase anyone as killer. Killers need three gen play because things like : SWF and Shift W exist
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3292187#Comment_3292187
That's your suggestion. I agree with that.
It would still make tunneling best strategy, but it would work very differently with different goal (find weakest link, hook him 6 times because he's easier then other survivors). From personal's POW it would be a bit sad that someone would "burn" your hook state and there's nothing for you to do about it, but tunneling would definitely get hard nerf by it.
If you didn't kill anyone with 3 hooks then the meta would change to 4 min bleedout.
You would be surprised how effective it can be. There are games where I have one person almost dead from bleedout and I dont hook them because the slugging is faster. That's the sad reality of this game.
@AssortedSorting said:
You keep thinking in the mindset that the only way to win a match is to get a 4K.
Why not shift the definition of a Win?
What about making a Mori the ultimate "reward" for a Killer, lore-wise?
Dress it up as being the ultimate goal of the match: Reach the condition you need to be able to Mori a Survivor, all else is just excess.
Make it so that Hooking Survivors actively corrupts the area, engorging The Entity on the Survivors Emotions, and after canvasing the Realm with Entity Stuff, the Killer is able to Mori Survivors (and likely initiating End-game collapse immediately, powering the gates regardless of the number of remaining generators).
The main problem here is that the only Win condition that many Killers think of is a 4K. And the game isn't being balanced around Killers getting 4Ks on average. (Nor should it).
"What about making a Mori the ultimate "reward" for a Killer, lore-wise?"
Almost all of the mori animations are stupid and lost all potency when they were effectively removed from the game. Meanwhile we still have BNPs. Imagine if you could only apply a BNP for the last 90% of a generator's progress. That would be dumb right? That is what happened to the Mori.
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@AssortedSorting said:
The way I see it is this:
Any change to tunneling is going to be a punishment for Killer because the only significant milestone a Killer Player has at the moment, is Killing all four Survivors.
Killing one is nothing special, since there are three more to go.
If you make it take longer to kill a Survivor, you increase the time it takes the Killer Player to gain any satisfaction from Trial progression.
You may say that your suggestions should work as an incentive for the Killer to strive for so they have more time to get the 4K, but MMR is designed around making it so that matches are balanced towards a 2-3K
Your change will inevitably just do nothing but make it take more effort to get the same reward.
Introduce a new reward for playing "by the books". One that people will gravitate towards as thinking as the new "win condition", that isn't just a 4K.
Similar in impact to when the Exit Gates are Powered, but for Killer.
"You may say that your suggestions should work as an incentive for the Killer to strive for so they have more time to get the 4K"
Where do I say : killers deserve 4k? If I play one game and I get juiced by a 40k hour survivor team and then I smash the next team in 4 hooks - do you think that is a fun /balanced experience ? The numbers don't lie and that is a 2k average (unless the person arranging them make them lie).
It's not rewarding to lose 2 gens before your first down or when you get your first hook. That needs to change and until it does the killer mindset will be two gens lost = need two hook states from one person.
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@StarLost said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3294125#Comment_3294125
- I think it's more that they want to incentivize SWF play, not discourage it.
- Yeah, you are probably MMR capped or close to it. Keep in mind that this puts you into the vanishingly small minority of elite players. The game...can't really be balanced to cater to you and this minority.
- I think you and I have a very different definition of 'fair'. Putting a newbie against someone with over 8,000 hours wouldn't be close to fair. It may be fun for you to have an easier, less sweaty time of it - but it's not going to be fun at all for the other players.
- Again, less sweaty for you. For your opponents getting completely and effortlessly rolled...not so much. This is unfortunately the big complaint I see from the crusty forum veterans - 'it was less sweaty for me before', without realizing that those crazy meme 50 win streaks came at the expense of players like me, at the time.
- Yes, at the top MMR, there's going to be a rigid meta and it's going to be sweaty. That's...high MMR play in most games. If you want less sweaty games, you'll need to ease up - and take a few dozen losses. But then you're basically smurfing.
"I think it's more that they want to incentivize SWF play, not discourage it."
Fine: make a mode where you and 4 friends play against 5 other players. The killers exchange survivors and it becomes a mini tournament.
When I play vs 4 man SWF streamers I notice that listening to their coms makes for fair play. "He left me so I will use unbreakable" - immediate 180 turn to hook that person. "If he picks me up I have DS" - proceed to slug and wait out DS timer. One player announced they brought deliverance in a stream so I made sure to hook them first and slug anyone else I downed.
The simple reality is that SWF breaks the game. Bad SWF players who can rush gens on an unfair map will win vs a very good killer. That's not right. Take away the coms advantage and they melt. If DBD had a change: when your microphone activates your aura is revealed for the duration of your message +5 seconds that would make people rethink the situation.
"you are probably MMR capped or close to it"
-MMR doesn't cap. It's just that once you hit 1600 every rating is technically 1600. So if I see a 4 man 10k lobby with 4 medkits (40k hrs) and dodge it - the next one might also be 1600 with no items and 2 solo players. The game tries to match you up with someone with fair skill. The problem is that there is no adjustment for SWF. That's not fair.
"-Putting a newbie against someone with over 8,000 hours wouldn't be close to fair."
Noobs get protected match making so that's a non issue. Getting a top tier blight once per month at the start of rank reset is a good learning experience.
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@StarLost said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3293965#Comment_3293965
- As did I. And yes - the operative word here is 'tutored'. If Dowsey had just stuck them into a match with him and slaughtered them, they wouldn't have learned anything. My point being - why exactly do you think putting brand new players up against highly experienced players is good for the new players? I don't think either side would get much out of that arrangement.
- I've actually suggested ramping MMR for SWFs, but one of the devs responded that they tried it as a solution but didn't like it. About a year ago if I recall.
- They've also conclusively said that they will never balance SWFs differently to solos. It's another idea I...don't hate, and has been suggested many, many times over the years but it's not going to happen.
- 5000-10000 hours...uh. You must be pretty damn good at this game, because even Otz and co. don't face 10,000 players regularly at all. It's usually 3-4k, with anyone above that generally being another streamer. If that's the norm, then well done I guess.
- Not trying to be a jerk here, but your whole 'I wish new players still got put up against experienced players' thing does come over now a bit like 'I want easier matchups'.
-"They've also conclusively said that they will never balance SWFs differently to solos"
I understand why they have decided to "balance" the game this way. It's literally about keeping the 4/5ths happy. The result is that long term killers stop playing. The game needs new people cycling in to play killer because most people either don't want to play that role or can't play it well.
Literally everyone knows that premade teams are better than random teams with no communication. That's why most games limit how many friends you can bring to a match unless both sides are bringing a pre-made team. For 5.5 years the dev team said SWF isn't a big deal and offers little to no advantage. And then in year six they said : yea SWF gives up to a 15% escape rate - oops our bad. We're still not nerfing SWF tho.
-"You must be pretty damn good at this game"
I've been playing for 6 years and I watch lots of streamers to get better. I had 2x prestige 100 players tonight and a 8,900 hour player was my highest that was not private. I played Nemesis for 10 games and I killed everyone except 3 people got away on Torment Creek. I seem to lose every game on that map as Nemesis unless the opposing team is far below my caliber. I tried tunneling one survivor out but they did comp blocking and saved her twice. It was a SWF of at least two people (the rest were private profiles). The boons and medkits did not help.
"Not trying to be a jerk here, but your whole 'I wish new players still got put up against experienced players' thing does come over now a bit like 'I want easier matchups'."
I can see why you would say that. I want fair games like in the old days where I could focus on chases and not have to focus on 3 gens every game. The current meta is punish gen before friends by forcing someone to stage two and tunneling them out as a response to losing 2-3 gens when I get my first hook. That is just not fun to do every single game.
Aside from the smurfing problem DBD was more fun when your rank reset because you didn't have to dry off with a towel after every game. Every rank reset I feel like I'm going against the dream team in ash ranks.
I had a 20+ minute game on Abattoir in my 10 game set where the gens almost got completed about five times. I did not even have a proper three gen. This was really not fun I think for anyone in that game. Eventually most of the pallets were broken and I had full stacks/infection so it was impossible to escape a chase.
Several games later I had a 30+ minute game on Rotten Field where I had a three gen in a corner to win the match. They used an offering to start together , used voice coms to relay my position and then blasted the gen when I had pathed away. I lost two hooks - from some very clever and inventive SWF play (but not from their flashlight). I lost count how many times the gens went up to about 70-90% and I just walked the very close three gen circle until they completely reset. Then I chased someone for no more than ~35 seconds and either got a down or went back to the generators.
After this game my friend linked me the Hens game that lasted an hour. I immediately though : that looks familiar.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3293679#Comment_3293679
No.
The skill floor for Killer is much lower than Survivor.
Average Killers will usually win against average Survivors. Not because they are good but because their opponents AREN'T.
Think of it like countering facecamping Bubba. How much skill does the Bubba need to sit in front of the hook? Not too much. How much skill do the Survivors need to counter it? Quite a bit.
Killer has the biggest advantage over survivor for the first week when neither side really knows anything.
Several months later when you get to middle ranks the game is relatively even. The only problem is that most of the killers can be completely shut down by god pallets.
When you get to above average players - the survivors have a little advantage overall. The only saving grace for the killer is that you probably learned to play a more advanced killer. Nemesis is not the best killer by a long shot but he's way better than trapper. If you want to win consistently in what would be old "purple rank" play then you can't really keep playing the weak killers and still have fun matches where you feel you had a fair fight.
When you get to the comp scene you realize there are only a few viable options for killer. Survivors are completely amazing and make you look like a noob even playing the best killer with really strong addons. This happens because overall the survivor has more skill potential than almost all of the killers.
@crogers271 said:
1: You can't tell people to get better because its not going to happen. The player base is spread out between multiple countries, languages, and systems. Those reading/following guides to get better are relatively small number. You can bemoan the state of survivor play, but it is what it is. As a soloQ survivor I have no control over 75% of what my "team" does, as killer I have 100% control of my play.
2: You mention enjoying things being hard; I agree, it's why I rarely play killer. I'd love to have hard killer games more frequently.
3: Survivor is not the easier role, not even close. Even if a killer is completely new to a map, they are told where the gens and hooks are, they really just have to learn perks as all survivors are the same. Survivors have to figure out where those things usually are + learn all the different killers.
"Survivor is not the easier role, not even close"
Most people would disagree with you. At any given point during the day how many "really good" killers are streaming? There's always about 5x survivor mains for every killer main.
Survivor starts as the harder role but becomes more powerful with a higher overall potential.
When you look at competitive DBD it is the survivors who are usually severely limited - not killers (who often only have a few restrictions).
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@leowt said:
A Nemesis brought us (a solo queue team) to Dead Dawg Saloon with Brutal Strength, Overcharge, Call of Brine and Eruption. From the start of the match, he did not leave his 3 gens around main (which were spitting distance from each other). He kept kicking the gens and did not commit to any chase. Eventually, all the pallets in the area were used up and even a god-tier looper will go down. To make matters worse, both zombies were patrolling the area. There was no skill involved, yet after this 45-minute war of attrition, we all eventually died.
Please don't be deliberately obtuse by saying that it was our fault for letting the 3 gen happen, as he did not leave the area and did not stop kicking the gens from the start of the match.
Please don't say the killer earned it because even a skill-less 4.6m killer will eventually down you in a dead zone since you have no resources to work with as a survivor.
Is this really what the devs and the players want this game to be? A 45 min gen-kicking simulator?
I know this forum has recently been filled with discussions around the gen-kicking meta, but I think it's important we keep having this conversation so the devs understand the gravity of this situation.
Ask yourself this question: Why did he play that way:?
The answer is probably not something you want to hear. The truth is that DBD maps are far too generous for efficient survivors. Bad players go to a loop and throw the pallet immediately. Good players loop 4-5 times and then throw the pallet. The amazing players loop 4 times then swap tiles and then go back to the first tile after a few more loops on a different tile then throw the pallet to break the killer's bloodlust.
As someone who plays killer and often sees 10,000 hour players I can't blame the guy you played against. My last match of the night was 30 minutes long and even the dead players stayed to watch. I had 4 hooks and there was only one generator left but it was a three gen in the corner of a map and there was literally only two pallets left on the entire map. I had 8 stacks of save the best for last. So you know what I did? I waited for someone to make a mistake. In the meantime I waited for the gens to tick down to nearly 0% progress. Then I would go for a 30-40 second chase hook someone and come right back to find the generator at 90% progress. This cycle repeated several times until someone died because they got greedy.
The survivors had every advantage : they were a 3 man SWF with good items and luck put them on a farm map. Even the 4th player who was a random was highly skilled and was pressuring generators (and did a good job of pressuring me).
"Is this really what the devs and the players want this game to be? A 45 min gen-kicking simulator?"
The longer the game goes on the more it favors the killer. Why? Flashlights run out of batteries, medkits lose the ability to heal you and eventually you run out of skill (what most people call pallets).
Killers do not want to lose the game by trading one hook for three generators.
"it's important we keep having this conversation so the devs understand the gravity of this situation."
You know what made Pop better than CoB, Overcharge and eruption? It was massive instant regression that rewarded the killer for hooking. Gen kick perks can be undone by survivors who touch the generator aggressively after a kick. I use a different build when I play strong SWF players because gen kick perks do not work when people call out which gens to go and harass while I chase someone away.
Ultimately what I'm trying to say here is this:
1) Gens are completed too quickly by efficient players relative to chase times.
2) SWF has too much of an advantage unless you are playing Blight/Nurse.
3) Most of the maps in the game favor survivors.
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@AssortedSorting said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3293860#Comment_3293860
DBD is like Hokey.
One side is the Killerz. one side is the Survivorz.
Each side passes the puck of absolution between each other for each generator/Hook made, dictating the eventual outcome.
If the Killer Hooks enough Survivors, the Killer wins, and the outcome is that they can kill in their own realm.
If the Survivors power enough generators they can escape in a last ditch effort and subvert death.
If the Killer hooks enough survivors and the Survivors power enough generators, it's a flip of the coin for survivors for who will fall across the path of the Killer, and be Moried in the EGC.
With any analogy you can literally twist it to whatever you want. find what works for the greatest number of people while still retaining enough of an identity to maintain the product as a standalone experience different from others.
Your post was literally empty - full of sound and fury with no purpose.
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@StarLost said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3293852#Comment_3293852
Hmm...
I don't think you understand how a human brain works, or how we really learn things. If you give a grade schooler an advanced calculus question, they will get it wrong - but they aren't going to get much out of it. Similarly, if you put a newbie up against a 2k monster, they will lose, but not in a way they'll be able you understand.
The term often used is 'scaffolding' - you put someone up against something slightly challenging, and even if they fail the first time, they'll learn. Then, once they've surpassed that challenge, you move them up a level. This allows both the motivation of success and incremental learning to occur.
If you can find an archive, Otz did a fantastic series where he tutored a new survivor - and he wasn't charging at her and wiping her out from the get go. And sure enough, she improved - and that was the series that actually made me play survivor on and off.
Different MMRs for different killers...it's an idea, but not an elegant solution. And how would this account for survivors?
My point about smurfing was that then it was so easy that even Fog Whisperers were doing it openly. Now - it's both a bigger time commitment and a much less exact science.
That said, 'SWF is like smurfing' is...a take.
I play...probably intermediate-low MMR survivor and intermediate-high MMR killer (naturally no way of knowing, but the Steam profiles I check sometimes have about 1000-2000 hours) and I mostly get decent matches. Even when I lose, it seldom feels like I couldn't have won if I'd done certain things better.
The odd game that goes sideways and I either get paired against newbies or a monstrous TTV SWF are just that - exceptions.
This was not the case under ranks.
"I don't think you understand how a human brain works, or how we really learn things"
I grew up playing games in arcades. If the person on the machine was too good for you to learn anything from your best bet was to just watch until they stopped playing. DBD is a rather easy game if you follow the simple premise of "money see, monkey do". Did you see the AT&T tournament where Dowsey turored some dbd noobs? They slaughtered the competition. One of the streamer's in the tournament was known for playing DBD as their main game. They came in something like 10/15th place.
-"Different MMRs for different killers...it's an idea, but not an elegant solution. And how would this account for survivors?"
Survivors are a skin so no difference. Your MMR would be inflated just for playing SWF. Your team total goes up by 200 MMR points for 2 linked people and it scales dramatically for each linked person. Three people in a swf would be at least 600 points and 4 people would be +1000 MMR. Yea that's extreme but that's one way to balance solo queue.
Alternatively we could have fair rules for the game so no MMR adjustement is needed. All I have been asking for a very long time is to make it so that when playing in a SWF there can be no repeats for : characters, items, perks or offerings. This would have almost zero impact on 2 man SWF teams. Along with this add a UI graphic to show what everyone wants to use on the ready up screen. When the party queues the game would lock all their selections except their costumes.
"the Steam profiles I check sometimes have about 1000-2000 hours"
You're playing in the goldilocks zone. I get mostly 3 man SWFs when I queue as killer. It's common for me to see players with 5000-10000 hours. I don't play nurse or blight so it's just not fun when I get handed a BS map that pretty much throws the game . In order for me to play a weaker Killer I often will instantly leave a lobby that has 3 medkits (and usually they have a boon too).
In short we're playing a completely different game. If you could log into my steam account you would probably lose 4/5 games in a row with 0-1 kills.
Every game is 4 survivors who want to try and finish three generators by the first hook. Which means I have to camp that hook to stage two and then when they get off I tunnel them out. It's so boring.....
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@AssortedSorting said:
You keep thinking in the mindset that the only way to win a match is to get a 4K.
Why not shift the definition of a Win?
What about making a Mori the ultimate "reward" for a Killer, lore-wise?
Dress it up as being the ultimate goal of the match: Reach the condition you need to be able to Mori a Survivor, all else is just excess.
Make it so that Hooking Survivors actively corrupts the area, engorging The Entity on the Survivors Emotions, and after canvasing the Realm with Entity Stuff, the Killer is able to Mori Survivors (and likely initiating End-game collapse immediately, powering the gates regardless of the number of remaining generators).
The main problem here is that the only Win condition that many Killers think of is a 4K. And the game isn't being balanced around Killers getting 4Ks on average. (Nor should it).
Patrick told us that since DBD is like Hockey - Kills are everything. They can't be bothered to reward good play behavior so winning is binary as survivor. Did you escape? If no then you lost and you deserve to lose MMR.
@SkeletalElite said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3292950#Comment_3292950
I sincerely doubt that nerfing survivors will do anything to stop tunneling or camping.
People do not tunnel and camp because they feel like they have to they tunnel and camp but because like water people are going to follow the path of least resistance. That is the path of least resistance.
That was the entire point of nerfing ruin and pop and pain res while increasing gen times to 90 seconds, and decreasing the distance gained on hit. Making killers not need to play as brutally to win. Guess what. The best way to play is still to put on 4 slowdowns and get your first kill at 5 hooks or fewer.
Deadlock is probably the worst perk you can make basekit. That is THE go-to slowdown perk for early elimination based strategy. Camping someone out as Bubba? Put on deadlock to buy more time to get em dead before all the gens are done. It is totally passive slowdown that works even when the killer isn't doing anything at all to pressure survivors other than the one they're trying to eliminate early.
Kills not telling the whole story is the exact reason some of the hooks should be made to a team pool. It reduces the difference between completely optimal play and mr nice guy 12 hooks plays dramatically. Mr nice guy play will give you first kill at 9 hooks, optimal play gives your first kill at as low as 3.
Taking away 1 personal hook state from each survivor and making them team shared now makes the difference between mr nice guy and optimal 9-6 rather than 9-3.
By brining those 2 numbers closer together, it's much easier to balance the game in a way that accommodates both people.
I rather liked DBD when you could go for chases. Jump back to 2016 before Haddonfield had been released. If people were not infinite looping you could have nice games where you chainsaw'd from gen to gen with billy. Saw within 5 feet of people and then start a chase. Depending on map/rng you could do this on infinite cheese maps too.
A lot of people hate Truetalent for some reason but he wanted the game to be about chases and hooks. As my post mentions above Patrick said nope it's kills or go home. Killers got the message and now go for the best way to get kills. The best way to do that is punish gens before friends. But do you know what a hook pool strategy would do? SWF duos or trios would leave randy on the hook while they blast out the last 3-4 gens and then leave. The hook pool thing would only work if it were a perk that survivors choose to take in the match.
"Deadlock is probably the worst perk you can make basekit"
-Deadlock prevents you from losing 3 gens in the first chase. If I lose 3 gens in the first chase then as a trade I want the survivor on the hook to lose two hook stages so that I can just follow them off the hook and kill them immediately. When the survivors get 3/5th of their objective and the killer gets 1/12 of his that is a huge problem. Deadlock prevents that better than any other perk. The game is winnable on most maps if I have 1/4 survivors dead and two generators left if I have a three/four gen.
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@StarLost said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3293072#Comment_3293072
Not sure how to break up posts, but okay. Let's drill down.
- Do they?
- Hahahaha what? No, no it isn't. I started out under ranks. I was facing reds within 10 games thanks to the ridiculous monthly reset. Within 3 weeks, I was in purples, and facing reds again. Me, with maybe 40 hours against people with 1000-2000, in SWFs.
- Is the cap way too low? AFAIK, we don't know what our MMRs are.
- MMR used to be a bit more fair, but they relaxed it after exactly what you're asking for happened. Endless queues.
- Right now, survivor is the unpopular role.
- You say 'refreshing'. I say 'awful'. It was probably fine for the experienced players, but it was an absolute misery as a newbie. It wasn't even something I could learn much from - just endlessly getting rolled.
- That is an entirely valid complaint. New players and 2k hour folks should not be getting paired up. I'm also confused. You condemn the MMR system for not being strict enough, but then say that newbies and experienced players constantly getting matched up was a good thing?
- And that's before how quick and easy it was to smurf your rating down. You can probably see some of my first forum posts were of the endless ultra-experienced folks in SWFs endlessly roflstomping newbies, then AFKing/suiciding matches out to drop rank again.
- Appropriate colors...what? I got into purple within my first month of playing, meaning I was facing red rankers half the time. And I barely had any idea what was going on - honestly, until red, the odd lucky streak could quickly inflate your rating, and it took a while to go back down again?
-"You say 'refreshing'. I say 'awful'. It was probably fine for the experienced players, but it was an absolute misery as a newbie. It wasn't even something I could learn much from - just endlessly getting rolled."
"You condemn the MMR system for not being strict enough, but then say that newbies and experienced players constantly getting matched up was a good thing?"
It was totally fine to see good players as a noob when you were doing your "placement" games for the month when everyone was in the "white" zone.
Average players will develop bad habits that they think are good. But when they watch good players they will learn tricks that are actually much better. If good players never play average players then average players take a very long time to learn anything. Take a friend who has never played this game and give them a month with no instruction and just let them learn from playing (and no watching streamers or reading guides). Take a different friend and give them about 4 sessions of an hour (one per week) and let them play the rest of the month. The friend you teach directly will be miles ahead because he will know things that take hundreds if not thousands of hours to pick up otherwise.
If this game were going to be fair we would have MMR caps for certain killers. Let's say for example that Clown can't play against anyone over 1200 MMR as long as you are not using pinky finger. The numbers are arbitrary but you get the point. That would be fair for that killer as long as you don't use his uber addon. Doctor would probably need to have a 1000 MMR cap. Until we have some kind of protected match making where the game doesn't think Blight= Clown and Doctor=Nurse then random would be more fair.
-"And that's before how quick and easy it was to smurf your rating down. You can probably see some of my first forum posts were of the endless ultra-experienced folks in SWFs endlessly roflstomping newbies, then AFKing/suiciding matches out to drop rank again."
Smurfing is a big problem in almost any online competitive game. I've seen so many streamers play rainbow six siege in a team but they alternate who is smurfing so they can look good. Overall smurfing was really the only problem with the old system. I had a friend who played "no hook" Michael Myers for like an entire year and only about 30 people escaped. Most of the people who did were also smurfing.
To be perfectly honest SWF is kinda like smurfing because you're massively increasing your power level without being better at the game as an individual player.
The reality is DBD is probably never going to be balanced for anything other than very new players and the "middle" players who have not really learned how to play efficiently yet.
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@StarLost said:
Haha what?
I played before MMR.
I played after MMR.
It's a million times better than it was under ranks, especially factoring in one week of every month being complete chaos due to the reset.
MMR isn't perfect, but it's definitely an improvement.
Most people hate the new MMR system.
The old system was random assortment. Over a long enough timeline random assortment is the most fair model.
The current SBMM sucks. Why? Because the cap is way too low in an effort to make matches fast. In so doing fairness gets thrown out the window. As an aside : there is no MMR "adjustment" given to 2 man/3 man/4man SWF teams and there most certainly should be.
SWF bully squads who win over and over again should be sitting in the match making queue for 10+ minutes. And when they get a match it should be try hardiest tournament Nurse or Blight. The fact that they play with "regular" killers hurts the system. Why? Because if 100 survivors leave then 25 killers have fewer people to play with. But if 100 killers leave then 400 survivors have fewer people to play with.
Monthly rank resets were refreshing. You had good players playing bad players and the good players won and were quickly sifted to the "better player" pool. This was healthy for the game because new players could see how a strong killer played. And they could learn things by watching better players in their matches. The only bad side about this arrangement was that it led to people losing and then crying on the forums : why did I play against a 2k hour killer?
You had good players playing good players too. Generally speaking people got sorted into their appropriate colors quickly and everything worked well. When you got to "red ranks" in the old system everyone there was a pro. It was a very fun experience for high level play even in solo queue. There were no "pretenders" that could stay at red ranks for long if they didn't have the skill to play in that league. (we're talking about your stereotypical immersed claudette running self care with no botany who uses urban evasion to walk around the exterior map edges).
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Anyone who wants tunneling removed from the game needs to ask for it to happen for BOTH sides. Killers tunnel out survivors and survivors tunnel out generators.
A quick note to solidify this idea: if the gens are never completed the killer won the game .
It's not fun as killer to lose 2-3 gens by your first hook. That is 2/5 or 3/5 of the survivor objective. How does the killer catch up? He needs ideally two hook states on the same survivor. That means camp the last 15 seconds or so because the survivors chose gens before friends. And then when they hit stage two you tunnel them out of the game.
That makes it 3/12 to 3/5 in terms of score. If the killer still has a three gen then he can possibly win.
Deadlock or corrupt (pick one) needs to become a base kit perk. Deadlock is the better choice because the perk could be kept exactly as it is and it just extends the duration for +30 seconds (meaning gens get locked for 60 seconds). With this change Deadlock would need to be given "rollback protection" so that if two gens are 99% completed then it is not possible for both to finish. One will be rolled back to 99% to prevent SWF coordination. We had this for hits at pallets so this could be done for gen completion.
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@Vampirox said:
you cant buy license perk thru in-game currency because its license, the license holders want their $$.
BHVR is not going to fork over money on your behalf to get single perks and/or killers.
so anything license is only from DLC
They were offered on the first day that the Halloween DLC was released.
That might be too soon™, but a year? come on.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3292233#Comment_3292233
With no addons Nurse really struggles catching up bigger distances, I truly believe that in comp players would rather use Spirit with yellow addons than Nurse with no addons.
Having no addons hurts Nurse more when it comes to map traversal than it hurts spirit.
I think most people who can play her nearly perfectly would disagree. There is a video from Hens where he plays a 4 man team and they accuse him of cheating. You should watch it.
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@SkeletalElite said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3292230#Comment_3292230
Okay, if it's a problem you can nerf gens again. The game should not be balanced around Early Elimination.
Remove the early elimination, see how it shakes out. If necessary, buff killers/nerf survivors. If the game is a little survivor sided for a while it will be fine. As is the kill rate currently stands at around 60% and the game is doing just fine. The kill rate could drop to 40% for a while and the game would still be fine.
Remember this game used to be incredibly survivor sided and guess what the game was fine because most people simply do not play optimally.
-"Okay, if it's a problem you can nerf gens again. The game should not be balanced around Early Elimination."
Does that same line of thought extend to the killer's generators? Again : if we had base corrupt or Deadlock it would largely prevent the thought process : I am behind and need to tunnel to catch up.
Kills do not tell the whole story in terms of balance. We have been saying this for years. When do the hooks happen? When do the gens finish? What was the order of survivors getting hooked? When do the kills happen between those events?
Without those answers the # of kills in a vacuum is meaningless.
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@JustAnotherNewbie said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3292147#Comment_3292147
Dude, look at this. Do you have your subscription glasses on? Please tell me you're still unsure...
Do you want me maybe to also upload the part he carries him to hatch?
You probably want to remove those videos as that likely falls under naming and shaming. The last time one of the mods mentioned teaming they said it has to be really clear.
The first video in isolation means nothing. I walk past people all the time in a chase to hit the person I am tunneling.
If dwight unhooked people the killer downed them, then this repeated multiple times: that would be a clear case of teaming. This looks a lot more like meme- ing.
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@ColonGlock said:
DBD has the least expensive DLC in the business.
It's not fair to limit what appears in the shrine artifically so people buy the DLC when the entire purpose of the shine was to let people who don't have the DLC to get access to perks.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3292155#Comment_3292155
Her power is not map depedant at all, I don't understand what you mean... She moves at almost 8 m/s with yellow speed addon which gives the survivor a 3 second headstart until she is at their original location and another 1.5 seconds if they started running immediatly... Also I don't understand what you mean by "Mouse 1 killer and go." Spirit cannot be looped like a normal M1 killer as she is way too fast to make it around the loop if she holds the pallet.
Also I would like to point out that you started by saying "Across all maps Nurse and Blight are better." which also includes maps not played in tournaments, but then restricted it afterwards, please be more precise in your language.
Also I would say overall tournaments use different rule sets by a long shot, there was this really weird japanese tournament that allowed everything but iridescent addons and maps where completely random. And I also found one that also has maps completely random but judges with higher bloodpoints and has 5 matches per team vs team... So everyone has to play killer... But I will admit that was the weirdest stuff I have ever seen when it comes to tournament rules.
Spirit is completely fine with two yellow addons, and even with no addons she can perform well, but it limits her map traversal.
"Spirit is completely fine with two yellow addons, and even with no addons she can perform well, but it limits her map traversal."
Winner winner chicken dinner. Nurse can destroy skilled players with no addons. Spirit won't be doing that. Spirit with her best addons is not even close to the same thing as Spirit with very limited addons.
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@SkeletalElite said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3292068#Comment_3292068
Reducing the reward granted by tunelling and punishment are not the same. Punishment would be things like DS and OTR.
Making hook states shared by the team is not punishing tunelling its a total redesign of a system that makes it so the reward that was previously there is no longer there (early elimination)
People tunnel because the system, as it is, encourages it. You don't need to take some roundabout way to "punish tunellers" you just need to redesign the system, so it is not rewarded to do at least early in the match (the only time its a problem)
and my system absolutely addresses that problem. Simply remove the benefit of tunelling. If there is no early elimination, there is no reason to tunnel. The only reason one might tunnel is to exploit a weak link, but that's pretty much the definition of a skill issue.
If you don't address gen rushing but stop tunneling then the game will break. Tunneling is the only answer to the gen rushing problem.
Survivors push gens so they finish 2-3 by the end of the first hook so killers try to make that first hook cost that survivor two health states. Overall the state of efficient play is not fun for anyone.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3292121#Comment_3292121
Still does not change the point that spirit does not care about the map at all, whereas Blight has some maps with bad collision that don't work well for him and Nurse also has some bad maps... Which map would be bad for Spirit?
Any map where she can't use her good addons - which is green+yellow vs a strong team that listens for her phasing. Mouse 1 killer and go.
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@JustAnotherNewbie said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3292123#Comment_3292123
Bro, what is it in you defending the Dwight? You probably don't even play solo, try playing with a person who is not contributing after killer is ignoring them. How is that NOT teaming? It's an agreement of Dwight not progressing the game and deciding not to save any of his teammates left (we were like 3, game can still be played) and Killer also not killing him because he plans on giving him hatch. if that's not co-operation what is?
I hope for your next 20 games you get SWFs that tilt you off the face of the earth and make you reconsider if you wanna continue playing this games, jesus.
I said it's possible. I didnt say he is innocent.
If the killer let him break a few totems, open a few chests then it would be real clear.
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@JustAnotherNewbie said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3292009#Comment_3292009
Did you even read the rest of the post? Dwight is trolling. He was standing right in front of me started unhooking and left me on purpose. He did the same thing to the survivor after me. How can that not be teaming with killer when he's letting his teammates die on purpose?
if the killer is ignoring Dwight they might not be teaming with him. IF someone were farming allies for points in my game I might let them help me kill the team faster.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3292100#Comment_3292100
Spirit is the least map dependant of those 3... Nurse struggles on larger maps or on Lerys and RPD for example, there are some really bad maps for Blight because of collision issues, so when we bring maps into the discussion Spirit is probably the most reliable of those 3.
With restriction I would probably agree about nurse, but I would say with limitations Blight and Spirit are really close together, but that comes more from the addon strenght because Nurses iridescent addons are just not as good as MDR.
Dude Spirit with two yellow addons will whipe the floor with us xD Nobody said anything about the weakest killer in the game being comparable.
Lerys and RPD are not used for tournaments.
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@Neyar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3292068#Comment_3292068
Punishment would be slowing down a hook or removing killer BP if they stay too close to a hook too long.
This solution changes the core game so that camping and tunneling is no longer the most efficient strategy to win. Core game changes imo, are the only way to resolve the problem.
Changing gen times do absolutely nothing to deter tunneling and camping, as we saw in 6.0. You could add 4 minutes per gen and it would reward camping hooks, and making gens any faster means killers will 'tunnel because they have no choice'.
The only solution to gen speeds, is to severely limit items. Survivor items should provide no more than 10% increased speed, regardless of add-ons. Ideally, both gen progress and regression should have a hard cap that can't be overcome even if you stack every perk for it.
But even limiting gen speeds won't change the fact that tunneling is the most efficient way to win. It always will be, until something like shared hooks is implemented too.
"Survivor items should provide no more than 10% increased speed, regardless of add-ons. Ideally, both gen progress and regression should have a hard cap that can't be overcome even if you stack every perk for it."
Otz made a really good video on that and I hope the devs notice.
"limiting gen speeds won't change the fact that tunneling is the most efficient way to win"
As long as the game rules stay as they are now- yes. Which is why I am suggesting a base rule change to make the killer not want to tunnel and reward them for not doing so with with a bonus EQUAL to tunneling.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3292068#Comment_3292068
False. People will camp & tunnel as long as it's best strategy to win. Even if killers would have 95% win rate, people will still camp and tunnel. Because people like to win. You are prime example, because aparently for you ~60% kill rate is still not enough.
Blanket win rates do not give good information.
If I play four really good players with strong medkits/toolboxes in a swf it is likely I will get 1-0 kills. Otz had this very same issue on his stream recently.
If I play four good players playing alone with no items I might get 4 kills on a fair map.
If I lose 0-4 the first game and win 4-0 the second game is that a fun/balanced experience? No. I don't think that's what we want.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3292074#Comment_3292074
yet you spoke about artist and spirit. Both are VERY. And I mean VERY viable in comp scene.
If spirit got no restriction (which is stupid), I am positive she indeed IS stronger then god nurse. All you need is amulet + MDR. No perks are really required, but you can take deadlock and some info perks for extra juice.
As for artist and basically this whole argument, watch this whole video:
Across all maps Nurse and Blight are better.
It's a Moot point about one map.
With restrictions Nurse and Blight are 100% better.
So it's a moot point what gets used in tournaments.
Also that video wasn't a trapper win now was it? Spirit with 1 green and 1 yellow is good? Hell no.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3291920#Comment_3291920
Yeah sure those killers are worse than Blight and Nurse and Spirit... But they are not that much worse that average players like us would stand a chance against a comp player on Artist or something like, you're completely misjudging what those guys can do.
And for any killer with any addons... Do you have any idea how ridiculously strong MDR Spirit is dude? There are even people that think MDR Spirit is stronger than Nurse, that's how broken this addon is... And it is not weak players, it's guys with like 8k-10k hours that used to play tournaments that think that this could be possible.
You are seriously undestimating the impact of directional phasing on spirit... She still moves so fast that once the 2-3 god pallets on a map are down there is nothing else to hold her back, what does it matter if you know where she is when she moves at double your speed dude? If you haven't seen Hens' Spirit showcase already with comp players against each other it is really great to watch and shows that spirit is still one of the best killers in the game and perfectly viable in a comp setting and outside of it.
I don't really not about hate towards Corrupt? I mean I don't really mind it as survivor, I can either rush to a dangerous area where the killer is waiting or just do a totem or open a chest, I like corrupt and think it is a great perk, I just dislike it being disabled after getting one down since it limits its usage on good chase killers.
If you watch good coordinated survivors they will often go for the unhook rather early and not wait that long, because having someone dead on hook early on can be really devastating and they know this, however survivors without information perks or communication cannot know if somebody is already going for the unhook, which leads to those kinds of situations, so if solo had information if somebody is already on his way to unhook this would not happen as often anymore.
"you're completely misjudging what those guys can do."
No I'm not. Show me a comp killer and put them on trapper with 1 green 1 yellow addon. That's a 3 or 4 man escape on almost any map. There is so much difference in the power levels of the killers that it is brutally unfair.
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@SkeletalElite said:
I think reducing the reward you get by tunelling is a better strategy.
Take away 1 hook state from each survivor.
Add it to a pool of 4 hook states shared by the whole team.
The 4 shared hook states will be used for hte first 4 hook stages of the match after which it starts using personal hook states.
Failed kobe will consume your personal hook state and you will be unable to kobe anymore.
Now there is no value to tunneling early on because you're only losing pressure on all the others for 0 benefit.
After your first 4 hooks you can get some benefits to tunneling someone out, but by that point the survivors have likely progressed to a point where they can be smart about it.
Everytime I suggest this the primary feedback is that people don't want to lose hook states because of 1 bad team mate but that's basically already happening in a much worse way. Imagine you have a bad team mate get tunneled out in the current state of the game.
They are horrible. They get hit in 6 seconds every time and are dead within the first minute of the match.
They only took 3 of your team's total hook states with them, sure, but it doesn't matter. Once they are dead, you have no hope of winning as a survivor unless you are already close to winning, which you won't be because it's only been 1 minute. You don't even have a single gen done.
Now lets look in this theoretical new system. The killer tunnels them, and they have taken 6 of your team's total hook states which took the killer twice as long. Sure they are terrible and you're still probably going to lose, but the point at which you lost the match was the point they died, and in the new system it took twice as long for you to lose the match so even though YOU have less hook states because of them, your team will be likely to perform better overall.
It is a team game after all. Look at like this. If BHVR added the ability to "donate" your hook states to another player. 99% of the time it would be the optimal play for unhooked survivors to donate a state to a survivor on death hook, no matter how bad they are.
"I think reducing the reward you get by tunelling is a better strategy."
Punishment behavior has been shown to be ineffective.
Your solution does not address the root cause of tunneling : Killers feel they need to tunnel to catch up to gen speed completion.
Your idea might work if the game had some kind of basekit lockout where if a "free hook" got used up then one gen stayed locked until that survivor were freed (only one at a time).
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3292002#Comment_3292002
Well let's think why. Maybe it's because people bring violet medkits every game now? Maybe most survivors didn't feel the need to bring ANY item at and before 6.0? Maybe BNP and proofthyself suddenly became something that survivors now bring to every game? Even if they did not change at all? Maybe survivors didn't genrush so much before 6.1? Maybe Otz still brings at most yellow offering where everyone else brings violet or pink stuff only now? Maybe you could try to ask Otz if patch 6.1 was survivor buff or nerf.
Also as I said before. The game is too much stress as survivor right now. So I barely play survivor. It's just today that I finished iri 1 as survivor while on killer I have it for 2 weaks already. Because survivor experience got that much worse. But you would understand if you actually cared to play both sides.
Also I am pretty sure the only reason why you are "high MMR" are 6.1 buffs and your camping+tunneling. You are the only person I have even heart of that considers 6.1 patch survivor buff
-You are the only person I have even heart of that considers 6.1 patch survivor buff
The perks before 6.0 were suited way more for dealing with SWF groups. Pop on average gave me 6-9 events that pushed the generators back two to three minutes. You don't get that with the current gen regression.
The 6.0 rework made solo more difficult but SWF easier (perks like eruption showcase this). Ideally the patch would have made solo play easier and swf less efficient.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3291928#Comment_3291928
In response to rushing gens leading to tunneling we got a question. Which came first the chicken or egg?
Back to the point at hand, it would need to be a extremely good carrot to get the sharp decline you want. Removing a survivor removes a good chunk of things killers have to worry about. Tunneling is the quickest way to this. Your suggestions just give killers specific patterns for tunneling and could make it easier. That extra time for deadlock give either camping or tunneling alot of time making it MORE attractive instead of hooking everyone for 8 percent each.
Maybe we're wrong but our faith that humans won't take an easy path is pretty reasonable.
You can look at how killers behave round to round and people say things like : why did the killer tunnel at 5 generators?
The answer is likely because of how their previous game went. Or maybe they tunnel at 5 gens because they are on Garden of Joy/Eyrie of Crows.
Playing killer is more difficult, more stressful and less fun overall. If this were not true then we would have way more people playing killer all the time.
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@JustAnotherNewbie said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3291949#Comment_3291949
I have a recording I believe where Dwight is standing in front of me with killer no where in sight and he doesn't unhook me on purpose, and earlier killer ignoring injured Dwight who's hanging around me. I said in the post I have a video lol.
Killer even admitted to not hooking Dwight on purpose so he could give him hatch.
still isnt teaming to decide to give one survivor hatch.
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@Kirarozu said:
Save up shards. Or ask someone to buy them for you for Christmas. It’s gotta be less than 20$ total for all 3.
I usually keep about 40k shards.
The shrine was introduced as a means to give players access to DLC perks (nearly a direct quote from Dave in 2016).
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3291928#Comment_3291928
Chases got buffed in 6.1. yet tunneling is on it's peak.
While we are at it make survivors need to fix 20 gens. That will give every killer enough time to exhaust all resources in the map and make looping totally pointless. Or playing survivor (and ultimatelly also killer) as well. Again killers already got buffed so that they have about 60% kill rate instead of balanced 50%. Your suggestion would make it just 90%, but at minimum it won't go under 80%. Also there's no reason to not "claim" all bonuses (hook everyone once and then tunnel them out). Additionally given current strength of regression, this suggestion would make 3-gens so safe, that even 5 hook states would not make it. Maybe if the game would become 5v1 this might maybe work. But I am not sure of even that. Also tunneling 1 survivor gives at minimum 33% regression if killer is not afk (you always chase someone), but realistically around 50% (people need to heal, do boons or destroy bones, do chests, move around the map, prepare for saves, etc).
Also if you care about first 3 gens, bring corrupt. I do that every game and it's rare that 1 gen pops by the time I down 1st person (it sure happens, but usually only after I am in chase with second person).
Also given your ideas. Super hard no to point 5,
"Chases got buffed in 6.1. yet tunneling is on it's peak."
Only in low middle tiers where you likely play because you think this is true.
Otz became more frustrated with DBD as a killer main after the 6.0 patch. High tier play got easier for survivors due to the 10 second BT and crazy gen rush perks like Hyperfocus.
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@JustAnotherNewbie said:
I have video evidence where Dwight refused to unhook me and another teammate while also doing nothing to progress the game like gens and then killer just gave him hatch, lol.
Working with the killer requires proof.
DId the killer ignore dwight while he was unhooking someone? DId the killer and Dwight work togther to farm and rehook someone rapidly?
Did the killer ignore dwight but follow him to find other hiding survivors?
Those are instances where you can *potentially* prove teaming.
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@Ayjay said:
Just make it so if the killer is too close to a hooked survivor, their death timer goes slower. That will make camping a much more unviable strategy.
They tried that and survivors abused it so the dev's couldn't make it work.
@Rulebreaker said:
We think your forgetting the human variable in all this. If they want to tunnel, they gonna tunnel.
Also point 1 would make it easier to tunnel or camp as rushing those gens is the best way to escape a tunnel vision killer or camping bubba before everything gets used.
Point 2 is a much better solution, but again, people do as they will.
Point 3 we feel would just give a target to tunnel
Point 4 we like but we don't think it solves anything.
5 is a no.
You're missing the point. If there is a built in way that rewards chases more than tunneling then tunneling will sharply decline.
Rushing generators is what leads to tunneling in the first place; so if the deaths AND the generators all get slowed down then the game lasts longer and everyone gets to play more. Everyone gets to have a feeling they can win the game without outcome of the game swinging to one side very early.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3290653#Comment_3290653
They just have to be 20% more efficient on generators to make the game just incredibly stupid for killer. Merely calling out the killer's location a few times and the perks they are using along with coordinating saves/gens makes you 20-40% more efficient at the game. That isn't fair
The game needs to be balanced around efficiency. There is too much of disparity between soloq time efficiency and SWF. I think if they just give soloq free global base-kit bond, soloq will be able to call the killer's location through deduction(you will see your teammate drop a pallet, which tells you who the killer is chasing and where he is approximately, no wallhacks of course, just approximate position). It will also help with healing efficiency as it will be easier to locate teammate for them to heal you and going for hook-saves will be more time efficient. You will also be able to deduce the generator's progression by estimating how long your teammate is on the generator making it easier to do generator's. soloq should be 20-40% more efficient at the game so that it is easier to balance killers.
The killer gets nothing for two hooks one one person and one hook on another person. That means the killer should always hook one person three times and ignore everyone else. The game rules need to change to make the killer have an alternative choice that is appealing as -25% generator reduction speed for hooking three different survivors one time.
I mean perks like this exist. Scourge hook: Gift of pain and Dying light grant 16% generator repair speed reduction and 3% repair reduction putting a survivor on a hook. Its just that these perks suck. too much drawbacks+why would I want to run perks to "not tunnel". Its easier to just tunnel and not run the perks in the first place.
"The game needs to be balanced around efficiency."
Unfortunately it most likely never will be because they want survivors having an edge to keep the good players interested.
-"I mean perks like this exist. Scourge hook: Gift of pain"
Here's the problem with this idea. Use a perk and hook anyone and get some benefit or hook one person with no perk required and get massive benefit. Which one is better?
Basekit the killer should have 1:1 repair with an alive surviovr if all 4 are alive. For every dead survivor the killer's regression should go down by half. Base kit the killer should get something better than (25% generator reduction) / (3 hooks) = ~8% slowdown base kit for a survivor's first hook if no one has been killed yet. Anything less than that means I should tunnel one person out.
@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3290724#Comment_3290724
You are ignorant if you believe he would not also wipe the floor as killer with one of the top 10 killers with rather mediocre addons... Spirit, Pyramid Head, Artist, Plague, they are all really good and also played in tournaments constantly.
I don't know where you live, but over here it is the opposite, almost the entire time survivors are missing and late in the evening at around 10 pm it switches to killer sometimes.
I really don't like those generalizing statements, just because they play in a group does not mean they have easy games, maybe they are not good at playing survivor and get matched with killers out of their league, since matchmaking is a mess, it goes both ways dude...
"You also ignore the fact that the UI would be updated so you could see what perks your friends have in the lobby so you can strategize with their build without asking them what perks they are using (I mean hell they have this technology for DBD on the switch)."
Was never mentioned before, but would be a good idea in general, however I still don't think you should limit options.
"What game are you playing? Again : most of the time the first chase ends and 2-3 generators are almost completed in the next 20 to 30 seconds. If everyone left their generator to make sure the save happened then the killer could in theory go interrupt those generators from getting completed. But that does not happen. They stay and finish the gens so the killer stays on the hook. Then the survivor hits stage two and then the killers goes to the nearby generators waiting for the unhoook (after which he will complete the kill)."
That's the issue when you don't run corrupt, people will start doing the gen they spawned right next to. You can also finish the gen and get the rescue without letting them hit second stage rather easily...
"Most of the maps in DBD are not fair to the majority of the killer cast. It has nothing to do with the killers' life that they want to have fun , play the game and have the potential to win too.",
There are many onesided maps yes, but how is it fun just standing next to a hook? You are not doing anything at that point, you have more interaction holding down the w key while watching a movie then when you camp someone... The chases are the fun thing, when you have to play in a boring way to come out on top you may have won the game, but did you have fun? Because if you have fun playing boring then you are not enjoying the game, but just winning and that's really sad, because you prioritize winning over having fun.
"Tell that to the survivors who rush the generator objective and then get mad when the killer rushes their objective."
Seriously what else are they supposed to do? Even if they did all 5 boons it may not be enough to not call it genrushing or whatever... I had games where I did 5 boons and the killer still complained about genrushing... Like what else am I supposed to do? Go afk and make coffee?
-"Spirit, Pyramid Head, Artist, Plague, they are all really good and also played in tournaments constantly."
Let's say there is a tournament that allows 1 green/1yellow addon for the killer and the first round of knock out is on Artist map. Who will chose PH over Blight? Who will choose Plague over Nurse? Nobody. And while Artist is a good killer she is just mechanically inferior to Nurse and Blight (while he has hug tech).
If you could play any killer with any addons would people play those killers over Nurse and Blight? The answer is no 99.9% of the time for everyone on that list except potentially Spirit. The only problem is that she god hardcore nerfed with the directional phasing sounds.
-"That's the issue when you don't run corrupt, people will start doing the gen they spawned right next to"
This is a general game design issue. The killer should have gotten either Deadlock or Corrupt basekit in the 6.0 update. They didn't do that however because 1) they lock the good gen regression perks behind premium DLC killers. 2) survivors really hated playing against corrupt every game.
-"There are many onesided maps yes, but how is it fun just standing next to a hook?"
You're completely dodging the issue. Also survivors never consider your fun when they want to loop you for 3 gens and have everything done in four minutes with zero kills and approximately 2-3 chases.
If survivors stop doing generators and push as a team for an early rescue the person on the hook rarely goes to stage two. But survivors who play efficiently do not want to do that because it gives room for the killer to reset the progress on those generators. They want to finish the gens and then rescue right before stage two. Hook camping is a cycle created by efficient play that is reinforced by completely unbalanced map design.
@MeltingPenguins said:
One thing that could be done here is a Nightmare Mode people have mused about here and there. Basically:
No red stain, no audible TR, no visible buffs/debuffs, no audible totems, generally no audio warning and different skillchecks (like they'd build up on screen gradually was an idea i have seen). perks like small game would work via the screen briefly twitching (as if your character tenses up), while aura reading would be completely disabled. There'd also be more means to fight back, all killers could climb dropped pallets, that sort of thing. Scratchmarks would be more vibrant (bloodhound's basekit here)
Nightmare mode would be fun but you forgot one thing : first person camera for all players. Three and four man SWF groups would be pretty fair if they had to play with some elements of Nightmare mode.
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@bunnyfengenthusiast said:
Nemesis and Wesker have two of the worst designed elements on a killer in the game (to include Nurse and all the other disliked killers in the roster).
I'll start with Nemesis and keep it very short: the zombies. The zombies are absolutely atrocious design, and rely entirely on RNG to either carry a game or throw it entirely. They can either get stuck completely in a corner of the map and do nothing all game, or bodyblock doors (with collision that never disables by the way) and pressure 2/3 gens on a 1-gen remaining scenario. There is absolutely no excuse for RNG to play such a large role in a game's outcome. I've had MANY games against Nemesis where the last gen could have been done three times over while Nemesis overcommitted to a chase, only for a zombie to wander back to the gen over and over again, and the team spending more time luring the zombie away only for it to come back than they do working on the gen. The most egregious case of a zombie interfering in the game is when they bodyblock a door to a structure (say shack) mid-chase with no recourse for the survivor. Nemesis can literally just stand still and bodyblock the survivor from the other side, sandwiching them between themselves and the zombie, and it's a guaranteed down.
Now for the most egregious design element in the game: Wesker's infection mechanic. I have many issues with the mechanical function of Wesker's power, but the worst one by FAR is how easily the killer can force a win by stacking slowdown perks and burn out the survivors' spray supply. There are 6 sprays on a map, 12 cures in total. 8 if Wesker uses Iridescent Uroboros Vial (which is probably his strongest addon btw). This means that all Wesker has to do is infect survivors 8 times while protecting a 3-gen (with Call of Brine/Eruption/Overcharge, this becomes a trivial task) to secure a guaranteed win. Being fully infected against Wesker is a death sentence in every aspect. In normal conditions, Wesker is 15% faster than you. When fully infected, Wesker is 25% faster than you. This makes it significantly easier to secure a hit. Not only this, but you are an insta-down if he hits you with his power, which is a much easier endeavor if you happen to be fully infected. In this regard, Wesker is a bit like an upside down Myers: Myers runs out of his power eventually, while survivors are limited in uses against Wesker's power. In this sense, he is the only killer in the game that can win by attrition alone. Any other killer that has a limited supply of "cures" to their power (such as the aforementioned Nemesis) don't have an infection mechanic anywhere near as oppressive as Wesker's. Being infected against Nemesis is an annoyance at best, being fully infected against Wesker is a guaranteed down. Plague has infinitely respawning fountains, Sadako has infinitely respawning TVs, Freddy has infinite TV spawns. Why is Wesker the only killer in the game that can guarantee a win if the game goes on for long enough?
Doctor is a terrible killer with almost no hope for redemption without a complete redesign. I'll bet you $1000 I can do better with Nemesis than you can do with doctor over 5 maps of each of our choice (at least one of which is likely to overlap).
Nemesis just needs his "2.0" rework that Legion and Ghostface got.
1) Remove the "3 tier" whip system and just have Nemesis play the entire game in T3 OR give Nemesis the ability to injure and infect.
It would make far more sense for Nurse to be a "build up" killer than Nemesis. Limit her to one blink until she has blinked and hit survivors three times, then she unlocks two charges for blink. Do the same for Blight : limit his bounces to three until he has three hits on survivors from three bounces or less.
2) Increase Zombie model and hitbox sizes to be that of the killer (making them less likely to get stuck). Make Nemesis "no clip" through his zombies and make an animation of them being shoved or something when he does. Scale zombie detection and movement based on map size. For maps around 9000m² leave this as 1.0 . For maps larger than that give zombies a huge boost in the 25-50% category so zombies are interacting with players as often as they do on small maps like coal tower or PH map. The 25% bonus would be for maps +1000m² and anything larger would be 50% movement and detection.
Delete zombie detection addons. Rework them to increase survivors that are healing and working on generators by 5m/10m depending on rarity. Double these distances if the survivor is infected (do not double a double in case two detection addons are used)
Any zombie that gets stuck or is "afk" will teleport to the nearest hook after getting stuck for more than 2 seconds. They will flag the spot where they got stuck and make a log file so that the pathing error can get fixed in the future.
3) Rework almost all of Nemesis's addons so they matter. Make one of his green addons be changed to : if infected then you do not hear the killer's terror radius. Make the licker addon be : -3% move speed forever while infected. Change the zombie move speed pink addon to : increase zombie speed by 50% at the start of the game; every completed generator increases zombie speed by 50% forever.
Change the green addon that slows vaccine opening time to be : -1 vaccine in the trial.
Change the addon that reduces current vaccine count in the trial to -2 vaccines in the trial. Obviously allow these to stack so that there is only enough for one survivor if both are used.
Change the brown useless addons that do things like : show the aura when a zombie hits a surviovr to : shows surviovr aura when they are within 5m of a zombie.
Hopefully someone gets the idea.
-"I've had MANY games against Nemesis where the last gen could have been done three times over while Nemesis overcommitted to a chase, only for a zombie to wander back to the gen over and over again"
That's probably because The Nemesis was using Discordance or Tinkerer both of which make the zombie go right back to the generator. That probably not the RNG you think it is.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3290653#Comment_3290653
People that are higher skilled than the killer and a severe way really don't need much to bully him... If one of us was to go against some 10k hours tournament player he would wipe the floor with us no matter what... Therefore restricting restricting him does not really mean anything. I don't think it is viable to put limitations on SWF because if you give them a disadvatage for playing with friends that will hurt the player base. You generally don't want to make it less attractive for people to play with friends no matter what. And to be honest those guys who are just that much better than the killer have two options 1. Do the gens in 5 minutes and escape with not much of a problem 2. Try to fool around and make stupid plays and so on... If you make it harder for them to do the second one what will they most likely do? Either try harder to make it still work or go for the alternative. That's exactly why comp needs restrictions, if it did not have those games would end in like 3-4 minutes easily.
Also honestly I hate the idea of dividing the playerbase in solos and people who play with friends... The issue is not people playing with friends, the issue is the game still has not recognized it needs to give solos some information to close the gap between these two groups of players and than balance around that.
"Mathematically 3/5ths of an objective is more than 1/4th of an objective. Survivors push the game to this state and then wonder why the killer wants to tunnel. This also leads killers to say well : if people are going to play like that then I need to play Blight/Nurse every game."
The problem with that statement is some people use it even though their situation does not really apply if you camp/tunnel one guy out for like 3-4 minutes what else are the other guys supposed to do other than gens? It is their main objective and you did not put any pressure on those guys...
"The killer gets nothing for two hooks one one person and one hook on another person. That means the killer should always hook one person three times and ignore everyone else. The game rules need to change to make the killer have an alternative choice that is appealing as -25% generator reduction speed for hooking three different survivors one time."
If the killer wants to win that much sure dude... But I could not care less about winning or loosing, it is all about the chases... If somebody really wants to camp and tunnel that hard he can hook me as well for free since I'm not invested at all into surviving and when his life is so sad that he wants to win at all costs than so be it... I don't play to escape I play to have fun, and when the killer decides to just balatantly tunnel someone out and the best thing to do about that is just sit on gens than this is boring af and I'm not gonna bother... He can have his win, if it makes his sad life better and I can go next hoping for some chases... Doing the most effective thing in this game is just terribly boring.
-"If one of us was to go against some 10k hours tournament player he would wipe the floor with us no matter what"
If the tournament player is a survivor then sure. If the tournament player is on killer and not playing Nurse/Blight or a killer with best in slot addons : Hell no.
-"I don't think it is viable to put limitations on SWF because if you give them a disadvatage for playing with friends that will hurt the player base."
DBD's killer base has been shrinking for 6 years because it is a constant one step forward and two steps back. The "miracle" 6.0 patch that was supposed to balance everything has put more power in the hands of survivors than killers. In my region killer is back to +100% bonus almost the entire day and never changes other than early mornings when survivor mains dabble in playing killer. Before the 6.0 patch we had people pinging the DBD servers to look who was in the queue. There were cases where there were about 5000 survivors in queue with 45 killers. That's the symptom of a problem that was also the death of VHS. Teens were waiting in line for 15 minutes to play a 5 minute game because nobody wanted to play monster.
Restricting SWF perks doesn't really hurt a 2 man SWF. There are so many perks to choose from that do very similar things. You can heal yourself with self care or inner healing. You can "sprint away" with : Balanced landing, Dead hard, Lithe, Sprint, Overcome and you could even try to make use of : Smash hit. The 2 man swf is the majority of the DBD player base. What this change would do is "nerf" 3 and 4 man SWF groups who quite honestly are having easy games anyway and probably deserve to get nerfed.
You also ignore the fact that the UI would be updated so you could see what perks your friends have in the lobby so you can strategize with their build without asking them what perks they are using (I mean hell they have this technology for DBD on the switch).
-if you camp/tunnel one guy out for like 3-4 minutes what else are the other guys supposed to do other than gens?
What game are you playing? Again : most of the time the first chase ends and 2-3 generators are almost completed in the next 20 to 30 seconds. If everyone left their generator to make sure the save happened then the killer could in theory go interrupt those generators from getting completed. But that does not happen. They stay and finish the gens so the killer stays on the hook. Then the survivor hits stage two and then the killers goes to the nearby generators waiting for the unhoook (after which he will complete the kill).
"I could not care less about winning or loosing, it is all about the chases"
Most of the maps in DBD are not fair to the majority of the killer cast. It has nothing to do with the killers' life that they want to have fun , play the game and have the potential to win too.
"Doing the most effective thing in this game is just terribly boring."
Tell that to the survivors who rush the generator objective and then get mad when the killer rushes their objective.
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@Archol123 said:
Just because people are playing in a swf does not mean they always use coms, some people just want to play with others that know what they are doing... Also if we look at really skilled survivor players like Hens or Zubat you will see them solo most of the time, since playing in a swf with other really really good people just becomes doing gems simulator and that's really boring, I think Hens said something between those lines when he was asked why they did the escape streak only once a week.
And even if solo kept its information advantage in the way you want it what keeps people from just writing in chat on which dbd channel to join and then use comms anyway? No matter if solo or swf if people really want to use communication they already can...
"-some people just want to play with others that know what they are doing. "
I completely understand as there is a MMR group that struggles severely in solo queue. The problem is when you get people with thousands of hours who play in a SWF to bully the killer. They don't even have to be swat teams doing clock call outs. They just have to be 20% more efficient on generators to make the game just incredibly stupid for killer. Merely calling out the killer's location a few times and the perks they are using along with coordinating saves/gens makes you 20-40% more efficient at the game. That isn't fair.
If SWF came with ANY kind of limitation that made solo queue better it would be a choice of "side grade" instead of pure upgrade. I have proposed before that SWF be limited by : no character, item, perk or offering repeats. That would be a very soft nerf to SWF that would prevent bullying and allow you to play with your friends.
High level play usually follows along the lines of downing one person and then 2-3 generators get done. Survivors don't attempt to rescue that survivor until that survivor is almost on stage two most of the time. This happens because they stayed on the generator an extra 15-20 seconds. The killer in turn needs to stay by the hook to force stage two on that survivor to punish "gens before friends". If possible they need to prevent the rescue until stage two and then allow it so they can tunnel that person out of the game.
Mathematically 3/5ths of an objective is more than 1/4th of an objective. Survivors push the game to this state and then wonder why the killer wants to tunnel. This also leads killers to say well : if people are going to play like that then I need to play Blight/Nurse every game.
The killer gets nothing for two hooks one one person and one hook on another person. That means the killer should always hook one person three times and ignore everyone else. The game rules need to change to make the killer have an alternative choice that is appealing as -25% generator reduction speed for hooking three different survivors one time.
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The knight is a really stupid killer.
Your power assisted kick on gens/pallets should use your perks. Otherwise why bother taking those perks? And if you don't have gen kicking perks then you should not kick gens. And that only reflects the problem that the base killer regression speed is just too damn low.
They want you do channel your pet into some fancy path but the best option is minimal channel instant drop. So the whole intent of his power is completely misused.
You should summon the guard not base on rotation but rather by what they are doing. Jailor should be completely deleted and just give the assassin more duration. Every chase should be the assassin. The fat guard that kicks fast should only kick gens/pallets.
That would be a much smarter design for the knight.
I have played 0 live games since release. I spent 9000 shards and 3M xp to unlock his perks. I never plan on playing him unless he gets a Legion/Ghost Face style 2.0 rework that makes him go from suck to : survivors hate playing against him.
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@Gandor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3290208#Comment_3290208
scratch marks are there so that killer does not loose survivor in chases. If removing the red light should be there because it provides free info for looping, scratchmarks should be removed because they provide free info for following the survivor. Leave all the free info, or remove it all. And let killers follow only by sound and guessing correctly. Same way as survivors will only listen to sound and guess correctly in chases. Same idea. It will make the game more frustrating for both sides, because it will be more about guessing then acting on information, but the frustration will be equal for both sides
-Leave all the free info, or remove it all.
So remove the auras of downed surviovrs for other survivors. Remove the aura of survivors on a hook for everyone. Remove the hud that shows who is hurt. Remove the hud that shows how many times each survivor has been hooked from survivors. Remove the indicator that shows how many generators are finished. Remove the indicators that show where the doors are for a few seconds. Remove the killer's terror radius.
Are we done being unreasonable?
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@SkeletalElite said:
Eruption more so than CoB.
Eruption gives base kick regression + 10% later + 24 seconds of forcing the survivor to not repair. Thats over 30 seconds of slowdown. That's more than PGTW ever did, and the devs felt that PGTW, a fair perk, needed to be nerfed into oblivion? But that's not it either because the perk also shows where the survivors that screamed are. Why? It's literally the exact reason that Pain res got nerfed. Giving the killer info AND strong regression just makes it a no brainer.
Eruption should have the location reveal from the scream removed and have it's incapacitated status cut in half to 12 seconds. In return, the cooldown can be removed from the perk and the incapacitated status should apply in a 6 meter radius around gens so SWF can't counter it by letting off right before they go down.
CoB is a little over tuned in that it gives info and good slowdown. It should just have the info removed. If you want to know if someone is working on the generator you kicked, put on surveillance.
Eruption and CoB are weak relatively speaking compared to the overall effects of:
Medkits/toolboxes (their appropriate addons), Prove Thyself, Hyperfocus and Boons.
It's probably an unpopular opinion but medkits should probably heal at self care speed and the better ones just have more charges. Remove all instances of "healing faster". I watched an hour or so of Otz's stream today and one thing was very clear. He got absolutely stomped almost every game there were 3 or 4 medkits with boons.
DBD probably needs some kind of base mechanic where every time you heal the next time will take 25% longer than last time.
Boons are a complete joke in comparison with Hex Totems. At this point the killer should be able to destroy bones by interacting with them (same as stomping on a boon). Alternatively survivors should need a special perk to destroy hex totems - because that's what killers have to put up with. The only fair solution is that both sides can interact and destroy the other side's totem perk with a single interaction.
Since killers have Undying let survivors have a perk called Rekindle or something that lets them use their boon one more time after it has been destroyed (but the next time will cause its destruction forever).
Otz made a video on this but overall Toolboxes and perks to speed up gens need some kind of limit. Realistically Toolboxes should probably become "Sabotage only". It's really unthinkable that Hyperfocus is allowed to work with toolboxes for extra checks when Medkits do not work with autodidact for the exact same reason.
Gens are not taking surviovrs 90 seconds on average to finish. It's very common to lose one generator in about 50 seconds every game. That will only be fair if we make a new killer generic addon where the second survivor immediately loses one hook state upon being hooked for the firs time. Since nobody wants that we need to have generator reform to limit how many things we can stack to rush toolboxes.
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You know how people always say : we need to give solo players more information relative to SWF teams.
Imagine if we had a PTB where they removed the red light from the killer if you are playing in a SWF. If you want the ability to have more information from the light then you have to give up voice coms.
That's the kind of change that would make people say wow.... SWF has a huge advantage but solo play has a huge advantage too. Otherwise there is no reason to play solo. Play in a SWF and you have up to a 15% higher escape rate. Meanwhile Freddy was nerfed for having a 4% higher killer rate.
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@BenSanderson55 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3288500#Comment_3288500
Dude this argument gets old. 10k hour players are not common, just because Otz is popular doesnt make him a typical killer nor his mmr. Most matches are not 10k players battling it out on comms vs the killer. Most are solo and duo q not on comms, if they are on comms they're not doing clock call outs like Hens team or something lol.
A single call out from a duo can save 20-40 seconds. You can do that 3-4 times per game and get extra time without needing a perk. That breaks the game.
Everyone who is not in "mid/low" ranks is hating the game because the survivors bring stupidly strong items and rush the gens in ~4 minutes. The killer is forced to hook the first person three times or they lose. Bronx just made a video saying nearly exactly that. Otz said the same thing today on his stream.
The red light doesn't really help the average players and it completely breaks the game for the good players.
@Gandor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3288538#Comment_3288538
Red light for scratchmarks. Same reasoning. Same stuff applies. Why should killer get training wheels and free info? Oh no. Scratches should stay, because they provide free info to killer side... Because 60% kill rate is just not enough for some entitled killers. Because my side deserves 4K every game...
No red light should stay. It provides skill interactions on both sides. I would much rather have interesting interactions to do over flipping a coin. Go play windows mines if you want to be able to win every game. Go play rock paper scissors if you want the outcome of the game be random.
Scratch marks are there to encourage the killer to chase off after someone in the distance. Barbeque was added to the game so that killers could see the aura of someone far away from the hook so they would not camp people on the hook.
Scratch marks are a punishment for running and a reward for walking. The whole "mind game" nonsense was the developer cop out because most of the tiles they designed in the game are not fair for the majority of the killer roster. Many of the better tournaments take place on three or four maps because almost the rest are one sided. Scratch mark removal would be more akin with the killer's terror radius removal.
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@CursedPerson said:
Its pretty good to have the pallet stuns farther back since it helps with latency otherwise some people would get very little stuns.
It's really not because pallets are supposed to be a skill shot. But honestly they stopped being that in 2016 when they got massive buffs.
Once upon a time pallets did not stun until they were basically finished dropping almost. That gave you the choice : pre drop and be safe or drop and potentially trade a hit.
Overall it was a much better balanced state for pallets (let's not discuss the window issue from back then).
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@Phasmamain said:
Can we stop saying “high MMR” like it means anything? The cap is so low basically everyone has reached it
But you are right about eruption. It’s unfairly strong against solo queue
Eruption is still weaker than Pop used to be.
Pop was the perk that carried killers and losing that was a huge deathblow to gen defense.
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@Zeidoktor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3288621#Comment_3288621
The map offering is currently killswitched though the map can still occur at random
I am aware but the OP is saying it should not even appear "natrually".
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@Zeidoktor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/355681/kill-switch-the-new-map
Sincere Question: What's so broken about the cringe map to warrant the killswitch?
The map is spawning every possible pallet.
The last time I played that map there were 6 pallets within about 5 seconds of travel time from a central point as killer. This is not an exaggeration.
It's as broken as if the map only spawned 5 generators. That being said you know it would be interesting if they just kept the map with 25 pallets and changed this map and the game to only spawn 6 generators.
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What nurse actually needs :
1) blink attacks are a "power hit" so no more starstruck/jolt.
2) Nurse and blight should trade one aspect with Michael Myers and Nemesis. Namely Nurse and Blight should become the "charge up" killers as they are the best killers in the game. How would it work? Limit their blink or bounces until they have scored X number of hits. Meanwhile make Nemesis just be T3 all the time.
Myers would require a more complicated rework but my best idea is to change current T2 into the new T1 but keep him undetectable (in other words starts the game full speed as if he were in T2 with the undetectable status of T1). The first time he hits the new "T2" will give him a single dose of his power just like the old T3. After that runs out then he needs more juice to build up once more. He would build up to infinite T3 as base kit.
3) Nurse should be forced to wipe her weapon after a hit before fatigue. This would make her take several blinks to catch up. This should be a blanket nerf to affect all killers (other than stepping in a beartrap or plague infection) that would basically only affect Nurse and Huntress. Hitting someone with a hatchet should require the Huntress to do a little hatchet juggle that just happens to perfectly match the timing of "weapon wiping".
4) Her collision should be completely turned off until after she is finished with fatigue. This will prevent the ability to jump in front of the survivor and body block. It would allow a new tech where the survivor could with perfect timing move into the space the nurse blinked from and avoid the hit unless the nurse predicted that and planned to 180° swing at the end of her blink.
5) Put her addons in line with the other killers who generally get like 6-12% bonuses from addons. No more 20-40% nonsense.