Killers eat good, huh?
It just feels like killers get what they want all the time.
They wanted dead hard nerfted? They got it. Spine chill, Shane's perk? got it.
Deliverance, sprint burst, vigil? Got it
Soon shoulder the burden, lithe, resilience, balanced landing will be getting nerfs, because of killer complains and spreadsheet will show that those perks are overused.
We had anti-tunnel system implemeneted - killers feedback made developers scrape the idea, they got rid of it.
Now killers tunnel and feel good about it. Can't say that about surviviors. They automatically lose a game because killer found the "weak link".
Atleast they nerfed ONE slugging perk, let's be happy.
Surviviors feedback about problematic killers doesn't seem to matter for a long time now.
Nurse, Kaneki and Jason destroy lobbies without a problem.
Well, atleast they nerfed blight and wins aren't that free anymore. We should be happy.
Basekit BT is being shortened - something that helped us a lot when killer went for immidiate tunnel.
We could make distance to a better loop, giving us a better chance.
Not everyone was using that offensively.
Solo queue? Who cares, right?
Find friends to play with just so we will slight chance to get escape sometimes.
Surviviors are DCing, giving up against their disliked killers. Making everyone have bad experience.
But we still didn't decide to think why that happens. Why would a survivior DC against their 5th overtuned jason in a row?
Or ghoul that doesn't really care about anything, bringing 4 slowdowns and 2 addons that literally act like perks.
Why don't we do something about that? Why don't we make survivior experience a little bit more enjoyable, so maybe those people will start enjoy the game more?
Why are surviviors giving their feedback and nothing is being done about it?
Comments
Yeah, there are a lot of good points being made here, but anyone trying to argue this case would do well to just omit any mention of the DH nerf, since that was arguably the most busted single item/perk the game has ever seen, and the fact that it was allowed to exist as it did for so long was a travesty. Really, the whole surv meta immediately pre-6.1.0 was a joke.
And yeah, a lot of recency bias and revisionist history; people quickly forget how survivor sided this game was, and it was like that for years. While mostly true, many of the things being said here about killer players crying and getting what they want has been equally true of survs in the past.
But I suppose that's illustrative of the bigger issue I see with these balancing changes - BHVR just can't seem to leave well enough alone in a lot of cases. Like post 6.1.0 things seemed to be moving towards balance (at least as balanced as this game can get), but now the pendulum has swung too far in a lot of cases. Like you can balance things without punishing the other side for having been in the advantaged position previously by over balancing.
They either don't go far enough, or they go way too far.
But I will say that I don't think there is a general practice to favor killers here, because that would be stupid, as most DBD players are surv players and it would cost them long term. I just think they can't (or won't) see the forest for the trees on balancing.
You seem pretty hyperfixated on a binary situation of "they made an effort" ignoring that it was a token effort, which is the entire problem.
Furthermore, I don't think they are listening to survivor complaints. They're certainly not acting on them. Which is how we arrived at this situation where anti-tunnel was gutted for people who proxy camp. This is the killer approved anti-tunnel, one that when they decide they want to tunnel, does not work, and is worse than the previous anti-tunnel. This is not the anti-tunnel that survivors want or asked for. This is precisely the kind of anti-tunnel that killers asked for and want, the kind that is completely ineffective when they decide they want to ignore it.
I mean I don't envy BHVR in their task of trying to balance DBD at present because the Us vs. Them going on in the community rn feels like it's the worst it's been in a very long time certainly the worst it's been since 6.1. Survivor mains will swear Killers are unstoppable and Killers will swear survivors have too many tools to escape and neither side seems to give any leeway so currently it's probably impossible to make everyone happy, BHVR is going to make someone mad no matter what they do.
Honestly their best bet is a massive perk shake up to completely reset the meta so nobody knows what's strong on either side for a little while which is supposedly coming so we'll see what we get.
I'm just repeating what my original statement was actually aimed at, which was the specific take of whether BHVR listen to survivor complaints or just ignore them. Since the other stuff in this patch is aimed at addressing some survivor complaints, you can't really say they're outright ignoring survivors.
Whether their proposed solutions are good enough or whether they're picking the right complaints is a different conversation entirely, that's all.
Though for the record, Elusive post-unhook is a pretty solid form of anti-tunnel. I'm not sure if reducing the duration of Haste/Endurance as well is a good idea, but adding Elusive is a pretty good stopgap before real structural changes can be made. It's also a direct response to people talking about how parts of the anti-tunnel PTB could be implemented, as far as I can see.
Yeah and if they nerf his Hex synergy, he’ll still be good honestly. And it wont affect your build either since you’ve only got one Hex perk that’s easily swappable with another slowdown.
And Spies buff would be cool.
Can i ask what is your reasoning with Surge on him though? His spikes dont trigger it and a lot of your downs would be with them. Is it because it works with Ruin?
And how are you actually doing on killer against these "pro swf teams?" Are you losing the majority of your matches? What do your kill rates look like? Because if you are still winning more matches than you are losing then what exactly is the problem? And if you're really not winning then I would love to actually see your stats. The number of times I have seen people complaining about killer while simultaneously winning the majority of their matches is a big part of why I can't take most killer complaints seriously.
I just finished 9 matches playing as Pig, I won 4, Lost 2, and Tied the remaining 3. That's good results and its on a "C tier" killer against players with thousands of hours (all I can really check since MMR is hidden) that are clearly playing as a team. I mention this because you say you stopped playing killer in favor of solo q while I have done the total opposite. I used to play solo survivor all the time (yes i did also play killer at the time, just not as much as survivor) and now basically refuse to play survivor, especially solo queue. We are seeing stronger and stronger killers released while the strongest things on survivor get nerfed. Survivor is often just loss simulator and that's as an experienced player, casual survivors are just fodder for killer players at this point while casual killers can easily put up good results with experienced killers winning the vast majority of their matches on almost anyone.
If you really are seeing more and more SWF its because players are realizing that the game isn't balanced for solo survivors unless the killer has a skill issue or goes out of their way to play the weaker killers and you just don't see those killers often. Some of the strongest killers are easy to pick up and will put up great results with far less skill than is required of survivors to put up even half decent results. All of this is before we get into technical issues like the number of matches that get ruined because the killer has bad ping (and gets an advantage for it) or bad game design like slugging for the 4k still being a thing. I honestly can't see how anyone doesn't see the killer experience as vastly superior to the survivor experience and the killer experience continues to see real action taken to improve it while survivor honestly feels like its being left to rot.
Alot of my downs are from spike followed by M1. ANOTHER nice thing to note is you can M1 survivors pinned to walls to proc surge. This actually let's you proc it over and over if ya want to keep swinging, although I just tend to stick with 1.
What killers are you playing if you don't mind sharing?
This is my last 30 days on killer and a bunch of the matches are in the anni event queue, most of this is on Jason (aura read only build) but also includes a decent chunk of Unknown, Plague, Pig (none in anni on this one), and a couple ghost face matches. My last 30 days on survivor are not a good representation, I only played survivor because casual friends came back for the event (my escape rate and win rate with them is in the gutter which is why I can confidently say casual survivors are just killer fodder).
I personally find I have to play far sweatier on survivor than killer to stand a chance, to a degree that has become not fun for me. I can agree that killer is more stressful but that is a separate thing entirely that the 1v4 format makes it impossible to change. I personally have not found I can AFK in a locker for any amount of time and hope to stand a chance of the survivors winning, that inefficiency will be the downfall of the survivor team. Time on a gen is time I use to watch where my teammates are (bond) and track where gens are being completed. I regularly find not doing those things means I don't escape. I do want to state that I don't think everything on killer is great or anything like that but the main driver is the disparity in killer strength and how survivor needs to be balanced in relation to that.
Do you ever abandon after all the survivors abandon? Because the stat website treats the survivors that abandoned in those matches as escaping, Otz has a short about his twins kill rate on it. For survivor we have a similar problem with abandon, the stats site ignores matches you abandon artificially inflating your escape rate. I also don't really care about personal escape rate, hatch escapes are only there as a means to end a match and are not the survivor winning unless two teammates made it out a gate. How often is the survivor team actually winning (3+ out)? I know you don't have those stats at hand but they are the ones I really care about.
BHVR nerfing endurance length is just another solo Q nerf. Normal people are being punished for something SWFs are doing.
It's for two reasons. The first is that the killer main community whines significantly more despite being a much smaller portion of the player base. Go on reddit, twitter, or any other form of social media and this is apparent. The second issue is that the content creator community is dominated by killer mains so most feedback is going to be biased at this level. The only people who do main survivor never discuss balance issues. People JRM, Skermz, etc who are more concerned with memes than the game itself.
Temper tantrums are not to be rewarded. DCing and giving up against disliked killers is not the correct approach. It should be punished not rewarded.
The solution to anti-tunnel isn't stacking more effects onto people. All we really need is just a 3-5 second unhook notifcation delay and we're pretty much golden.
The only real solution to tunnelling is to make it mechanically impossible, but while something that achieves that without unfair side effects is being cooked, being able to slip away from the hook more reliably and evade the killer is one of the safer ways of stemming the bleeding, so to speak.
Elusive can't reliably be abused at all and does stand a chance of really helping people get away from the killer, so it's a pretty good temporary band-aid.
Won't work for campers. They should just take the invincibility and invisibility ideas and combine the with total silence. There's no way to abuse being silent, invisible, and having no collision. They won't do it though because it's too absolute.
Im wondering how the no collision part would work for body blocking. I know this sounds obvious, but back in the day with OG Freddy, survivors who couldn't be injured COULD bodyblock still since autoaim wouldn't allow Freddy to swing THROUGH them and hit the survivor in front.
Killers are eating good and they're still complaining about minor debuffs to NoWhere to Hide. I always thought it was weird that perk had a little under the same range as bond. It was supposed to be a perk for finding people near gens yet you didn't even have to be near a gen to have your aura revealed by it.
Am I the only one tired of this Us VS Them rhetoric? I feel like the forums are getting worse about this.
While I agree some players blow things out of proportion, it's fine and not 'whining' to point out when something is busted or overpowered. Doesn't matter which side has it. It's especially important in a game like this, being an asym where one side needs leverage against 4 others.
I mean really, Sprint Burst hasn't been touched in what, 9 years and it's finally getting a nerf and now suddenly killers are taking it too far? Heck, I don't think they went far enough with nowhere to hide, seeing as it should stick to the gen's radius and not the killer for aura reading, and yet 1 less second of haste is the breaking point for some players here?
Or the endless whining about cross examination being nerfed. It wasn't a good idea to begin with because elusive wasn't meant to be thrown onto things for basically free. Long wall loops made it give insane value for delaying chase or altogether losing the killer with no effort. And on the other end of this spectrum, the 'buff' to repressed alliance is now making it harder to finish gens, and I can only see it being good with wiretap to keep it active longer.
Seriously, I would like to see people play both roles, especially try a variety of killers since survivor doesn't have as much to them as killer has.
Was that happening to you with invincibility during the banquet? I didn't have any issues. But I also don't ever notice this autoaim people complain about. I've never had a sudden swerve that felt like it wasn't my own doing.
I was not aware of that interaction! Surely being able to proc it over and over is a bug though haha
your getting elusive just leave. stop healing under hook and sticking around the hook. 10 seconds is plenty.
This game just does something to people, nothing is simply a balance change they don't like, it becomes another way bhvr and 'the other side' are ruining everything for them specifically. The amount of times I have seen people compare themselves to victims of abuse because of a perk or addon nerf is uh, disheartening.
IMO, what they should've done all the way back in 6.1 is turn OTR into a complete info black-out perk: No screams, no breathing, no grunts of pain, no blood pools, no scratch marks, no aura, no footsteps, no killer instinct, nothing.
And then absolutely not touch DS, unless it is to buff the stun duration.
This would be way stronger anti-tunnel without being abusable.
It sure doesn't help that what's 'busted' or 'overpowered' is completely subjective. For example, of course Killers would believe that Shoulder the Burden is "busted/overpowered," but Survivors would think it's trash.
Cool, so we should add more safe pallets to Gideon Meat Plant since I get a killers who DC on that map all the time
Not quite the same thing is it? Removing the safe pallets would be the equivalent to rewarding tantrums. Adding more pallets would punishing all killers including those that don't kick, scream, and DC when things don't go their way.
When I talk about punishing, it's on the individual level. The DCing player should be punished for wasting others time and ruining the natural progression of the match.
I barely touched the banquet tbh but im pretty sure THOSE survivors still had collision. Awake survivors against OG Freddy had no collision similar to if you demanifest as Onryo and can thus walk through survivors. I remember ppl doing this quite often to bodyblock for the unhooker since the freshly unhooked survivor would obviously be awake against Freddy. Youd try to lunge, but it would get cut short as the game's "aim dressing" tries to connect you with the awake survivor. M1s cant hit multiple survivors so id have cases where im basically standing inside the model of the awake survivor trying to hit the sleeping one right in front of me and it just ain't happening...
More than likely, lol. It ALSO probably just looks like BM on the survivor end kinda like hitting them on the hook over and over and generally I dont like BMing.
It's crazy people are still complaining about STB after BHVR nerfed it into the ground. It's basically a "please kill me" perk.
I really hate to bring up this argument, but a lot of players don't play at a higher level to know how useful something is, or how busted something can be when applied.
I even forget this at times until I actually research why something gets changed. Good examples are old infinite loops, where new players may have been unaware while players who knew of them could just loop infinitely.
Or more recent (albeit still years ago) Made For This stacking with other haste. I personally made killers RQ because I could loop around 1 single car on Haddonfield about 7-8 times when pre-planning boon: dark theory and it was even worse when hope kicks in.
And for the sake of not showing bias, how about the gen kick meta that resulted in Skull Merchant being kneecapped and Call of Brine being the worst slowdown perk in the game for awhile now? That sure wasn't healthy and there was no subjectivity to it.
And on the subjective angle, how about the fact that every killer has to experience the game a bit differently? You can make the argument that the MFT meta before would have been useless against Ghoul, Krasue, and possibly Jason. But for basic M1's like Hag, Sadako, Trapper, etc? There's a reason for the change. Heck, I can apply it to your Shoulder the Burden argument because the meta killers can still tunnel out anyone being saved by that perk pretty efficiently, it just hurts killers that can't catch up in chase as effectively.
This is what I mean by this isn't something that should be an Us VS Them, this is an overall game balance effecting both sides where the meta is stagnant and needs changing. And BHVR has kinda painted themselves into a corner with how they're powercreeping things. Not just killers either, Bite The Bullet is kinda redundant because of A Place For Us.
We shouldn't be having a meltdown because unhealthy mechanics/perks get nerfed or removed, we SHOULD be focused on what's balanced for an asym based on the ideal match within the confines of DBD, not based on bias for either side.
We shouldn't be having a meltdown because unhealthy mechanics/perks get nerfed or removed, we SHOULD be focused on what's balanced for an asym based on the ideal match within the confines of DBD, not based on bias for either side.Sure, this is true, but it requires discussing the whole scope of the game and what about it makes it an asym.
You can make the argument that the MFT meta before would have been useless against Ghoul, Krasue, and possibly Jason. But for basic M1's like Hag, Sadako, Trapper, etc? There's a reason for the change. Heck, I can apply it to your Shoulder the Burden argument because the meta killers can still tunnel out anyone being saved by that perk pretty efficiently, it just hurts killers that can't catch up in chase as effectively.This is just what DbD is. Some perks/items/strategies will work better against some killers than others (in addition to the killer's strategy). Survivors bring multiple anti-tunnel perks and the killer doesn't tunnel? Survivors bring no anti-tunnel perks and the killer does? Survivors with heal builds hit a Plague (or a hard tunneling killer)? The reverse is also true.
That's just how the game is designed, either side can be given pretty substantial advantages based on what is selected in the lobby screen with having no knowledge of what their opponents will have (though it used to be even more extreme). The discussion can't just focus on worst case scenarios for the killers (e.g. Trapper) then just focusing on the worst case scenarios for the survivors (e.g. Nurse).
The issue on the killer side of the discussion is that the weak killers will generally be weak regardless of the build survivors have. Nurse is still going to outclass Trapper even if the survivors run no perks whatsoever.
Or more recent (albeit still years ago) Made For This stacking with other haste. I personally made killers RQ because I could loop around 1 single car on Haddonfield about 7-8 times when pre-planning boon: dark theory and it was even worse when hope kicks in.And for the sake of not showing bias, how about the gen kick meta that resulted in Skull Merchant being kneecapped and Call of Brine being the worst slowdown perk in the game for awhile now? That sure wasn't healthy and there was no subjectivity to it.So let's compare the two which are pretty good examples of things that should have been changed, but also show a pretty clear difference in the extent -
The survivor situation requires factors outside the survivors control. First, they need to get a killer that the strategy will work against. Second, they need a map where this can be set up (easier at the time with map offerings). Third, they need to put the time into setting it up then need to get the killer to chase them. Fourth, they need the killer to commit to the chase and not have something like Coup that could potentially counter it.
And if the killer sees how fast the survivor is moving they can drop chase to focus on other targets.
Now take the Skull Merchant example of killer going to a three gen right from game start. What was the survivor counter? Have Potential Energy and you win. Otherwise, survivors were forced into an extremely long, tedious game.
DbD's an asym, the sides aren't the same. The problematic survivor examples requires a couple of things to go their way, while the killer examples are problematic unless the survivors happened to bring the right perks.
The main issue is when a meta doesn't just counter a certain amount of killers, it's when it divides the gap between a massive amount of them. We see time and time again how sick we are of seeing Nurse, Blight, Kaneki, and recently Jason but as others point out, that's because anyone else that can't keep up in chase are going to suffer. These perk combinations aren't just hurting specific aspects, otherwise I'd bring up Calm Spirit and Doctor which nobody should have a problem with. Now if there were perks that were more like Calm Spirit that effected killers with good chase but left M1 killers with a better advantage you'd have a point, but I fail to see any perks doing so.
And that's why Sprint Burst is getting a nerf as well as Vigil. Sprint Burst is equally powerful against all killers outside of using exhaust, which has only a few notable addons/perks that can counter it reliably. Vigil, while still probably good against killers like Nightmare, will not be as globally reliable. That's my point from before: One perk or a combination of perks shouldn't be able to effect more than half the roster if we're talking about countering killers.
Which is why I brought it up as an example of an unhealthy killer meta. It was horrible to face and rightfully got nerfed. When survivors complain broken mechanics get adjusted or patched, should we have justified this meta existing as well? Being unbiased in balance changes means looking at both sides, seeing what effects the game as a whole and seeing if it's a net positive or net negative, and adjusting accordingly. This and the MFT thing are both good examples of fixing a problematic situation and how those situations shouldn't have been there to begin with.
I pretty much said the same thing in my first post. As per BHVR's own vision, there should be a slant killer advantage over survivors. I don't personally fully agree with them on every decision, as survivor still has a lot of issues, but I do agree the 1 should have the advantage over the 4 and be adjusted accordingly without metas like gen kick or haste stacking as examples. And it's not a bad thing when players point out, especially from testing in the PTB, when something is a problem that needs fixed. The real issue is when people take it FAR too personally and create this division, hence why I said people should really play both sides.
Literally everytime a survivor is tunneled, the killer has LoS on them and elusive doesnt matter anymore. Also most maps dont have enough LoS-Blocker to hide at all. BHVR has to acknowledge, that the only way to deal with tunneling is effectively making it impossible to achieve. You can achieve this with only two ways: put on all the needed status effects or just put survivor into a different dimension (like spirit phasing). As long as devs refuse to accept this, there wont be any improvement gameplay-wise ever.
But due to last community stream, there is absolutely no hope in bhvr accepting anything like this. They literally take the view, if there are so many nerfs on one role, the other role needs as many buffs for compensation, they obviously lack any reasonable understanding of balancing.
this right here this is why I dont take most of Killer mains seriously their MMR boosted because tunneling works in middle/lower MMR and then complain about "needed" buffs but in reality they are a boosted player
This is not just killer, I see it in many survivor games too which Im pretty sure contribute to some of the disconnects (the reason why i dont run Bond just pisses me off)
It depends on context. The Elusive off-hook was legitimately pretty useful on the old PTB that tested all the anti-tunnel stuff, so it's definitely better than nothing, but there are also scenarios where it won't work.
If you can break line of sight, especially if the killer hits your Endurance, then you have a really high chance of losing the killer and stopping them tunnelling you. I agree it's not enough and something needs to be done about tunnelling on a structural level, which I said myself, but that doesn't mean this will achieve nothing.
Though, for the record I don't support either of those solutions. My personal solution for tunnelling is to shrink off-hook Endurance down to about six seconds, but put a mark on the unhooked survivor that ensures that they cannot gain hook states, making tunnelling them kinda pointless.
That mark would only be on one survivor at a time and would go away on conspicuous actions, of course, among a couple other bits of nuance, but the general direction is where I'd look.
theres no way to say it without seeming like tribal shitfling but a lot of surv players are super bad at the game and want it balanced around their skill level
No, NOT everytime a survivor is tunneled does the killer have LOS. Things like scratchmarks and bloodpools are used to find the unhooked survivor, which elusive removes.
exactly. you're supposed to adapt to the game (or players even), not the other way around
’ugh this game is so killer sided smh’
We, objectively, just had THE most survivor biased game mode in history which only a handful of killers were good (but still boring in).
Chaos shuffle and lights out are returning with changes that only serve to screw over killers that have meme add ons (padded jaws trapper being an example for chaos shuffle) or in the case of lights out giving survivors free windows of opportunity essentially nullifying the point of the event and breaks the dark spooky immersion of the game mode.
But yeah let’s push the narrative that killers get what they want all the time while ignoring the facts, like a certain tall Brazilian woman getting soft removed from the game for over a year because of all the complaining surrounding her from people who’d rather DC than actually learn to play.
People talking about DBD as a whole and you're going to point at side modes as a counter-argument?
Not to mention that Chaos Shuffle just pulled parity between the sides, since it made little sense to leave survivors with full random (Lol @ No Mither) but then give killers bad-luck-protection.
Pulling no mither (the only expressly detrimental surv perk) is 1/~42, pulling a specific killer addon is 1/10 and even outside of 'your power does nothing' addons some killers have multiple detrimental addons
fwiw i'd be more in favour of removing no mither from shuffle than allowing game ruining killer addons
no mither simply isn’t comparable.
Not only is it far more uncommon to pull, it has tangible benefits aswell to its huge downside. And it doesn’t directly affect the survivor gameplay loop, as some add ons change the playstyle altogether. Getting no mither just means you have to play a little safer around loops, it doesn’t affect your repair process, or ability to play the game normally.
Lots of meme add ons either have 0 benefit, or don’t work unless paired with a specific build/map/another add on, there’s simply too many variables. Comparing one perk to a many number of different killer powers is simply a false equivalency at best, and a straw man at worst.
and hate to be that guy, but “dbd as a whole” includes side modes and events🤓☝️. When you say dbd as whole I expect you to be talking about the actual whole game. The side modes can have a tangible impact on the game and the things added to it; just look at fog vials, which originated from the Halloween event and put into the main game. Chaos shuffle itself was implementation after serious demand when they started doing those random perk quests. Pallet rebuilding was implemented as a perk with apocalyptic ingenuity (perk is still garbage please buff bhvr) after party pallets from anniversary event and pallet rebuilding from 2v8.
As a side tangent, I have 0 proof of this except a general feeling around it, chaos shuffle at least when it comes to perks isn’t ’truly random’. A lot of times it felt like they gave me complimentary builds, or if you got one perk there was an increased chance to get another synergistic perk. In past chaos shuffles I’ve more than once rolled no mither and invocations which are very nice paired together, or If I got kindred I was more likely to get other hook related perks. Again 0 proof of this just an anecdotal feeling.
Pop was buffed and now takes off a fixed 18 charges from a generator. So it is now much more powerful than it was.
This forum is just a tar pit of negativity and rancour. This sort of comment thread is why Flats and other content creators make fun of the DBD community.
So then why are killer mains constantly crying about and blaming perks? Why aren't they adapting to the game?
I wouldn’t have put it quite that way, but I agree that a lot (most?) of the complaints are coming from people on the lower end of the skill curve. I play solo queue and when I have decent teammates who can last more than 5 seconds in chase, know how to coordinate using the info, stay on gens when someone else is getting chased, etc. the game is almost always fun and competitive. The times when it’s miserable are when teammates get downed immediately after chase starts, run from gens when they hear terror radius even if it’s clear someone else is getting chased, spend the whole time on chests/totems, etc.
As someone who plays both sides about equally it’s hard for me to understand the complaints coming from either side about the game being wildly unbalanced or a consistently miserable experience. And it’s not like I play this game all the time - I’m a causal player who plays maybe 5-10 hours a week when I get a little bit of rare spare time. I’m not a particularly skilled gamer. If someone like me can enjoy the game, then anyone can. It just takes some perspective from both the survivor and the killer role. The only conclusion I am left with is most of the complaints about balance are coming from one-sided players.