Firellius
Firellius
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@FerrousFacade said:
My time on this forum has shown me one thing clearly, some of you need a math lesson.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/6YOX12G9MOB7/image.png
These are normal distributions. When you graph the frequency of many attributes across a population they create distributions like these, particularly in the natural world. Many human characteristics, like height, reaction time, the number times in a day you use the bathroom, you get a graph like this. Rarely perfectly, but close enough that they are a useful tool. In a normal distribution the peak in the middle of the graph is simultaneously the mean (average), median (middle number), and mode (most common number).
Now, what does this have to do with DbD. Well we could create a metric called "Survivor Skill in DbD" and make that our X-Axis, the further right we go the better those survivors are at DbD and then make player count the Y-Axis. When you make the statement that the average survivor is bad you are arguing one of two things.
The first possibility is that the graph created by doing that would not follow a normal distribution. You are claiming that said graph would perhaps look something like this. (I am not sorry for my bad paint skills and I am not fixing it)https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/FGIFLX8FDVXG/image.png
Now, given that skill in DbD is made up of human characteristics, like reaction time, spatial awareness, the ability and willingness to cram a ton of worthless information about killer powers, maps, addons, and perks into your head, and the mechanical ability to execute on that information, you would need an incredibly compelling argument for this non-normal distribution to be true. I have never seen such an argument and while DbD has unique characteristics it is not nearly unique enough to warrant such belief without an extensive study of the games playerbase.
So that leaves us with the other possibility. Survivor player skill in DbD follows a normal distribution and so does killer player skill, but your statement can still be true. It just requires you to place the survivor skill required to be decent at survivor, effectively the survivor skill floor, above the average point. Since survivor skill is measured directly against killer skill we would necessarily have to place the killer skill floor below the average point on their distribution.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/WS1R5S0IM6DM/image.png
The end result, by stating that "the average survivor is bad" you are arguing that it is more difficult to do well on survivor than it is to do well on killer, thus you are arguing that survivor is the harder role and killer is the easier role.
Now, given that skill in DbD is made up of human characteristics, like reaction time, spatial awareness, the ability and willingness to cram a ton of worthless information about killer powers, maps, addons, and perks into your head, and the mechanical ability to execute on that information, you would need an incredibly compelling argument for this non-normal distribution to be true.
I have one.
And that's that the game is incredibly hostile to survivor players, driving most of them away. This means the only ones left to keep playing survivor are
A) New players who are fresh to the game and haven't been beaten down yet.
B) Die-hard try-hards that are determined to chisel out a win no matter the odds.
Thus you get a chunk of players on the lower end and a chunk of players on the higher end, but way fewer in the middle, as that's where the game is brutally unfair to the player and they're also experienced enough to see the pattern and decide to quit.
That's my theory.
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@Mandy said:
Hello everybody,
As you’re all aware, we are currently in our 10th year of operating Dead by Daylight as a live game. While the dev team is looking at numerous ways to update, improve, and modernize the game to carry us through the next 10 years, we are doing this on the community side of things as well.
When looking at the spread of official channels and platforms (Official Forums, Discord, Reddit, Steam Discussions, social media) where we engage with and listen to our players, we have seen big shifts over this last decade in where our players are spending their time. While most of these platforms and channels have been booming, user activity and engagement on our Official Forums has been steadily and substantially declining year over year. This matches general trends seen across the industry regarding where gaming communities are spending their time these days.
Reflecting upon this dynamic, we believe the time has come to shift where we are focusing the community team’s efforts for the exciting future ahead. As such, we’ve made the decision to close the Official Forums at the end of October 2026 and transition to supporting you, the Community, on the other platforms namely the official Discord server, Steam Discussions and the r/DeadbyDaylight subreddit.
Discord, in particular, will become more and more central to our community work in the months ahead. With tens of millions of DBD players already present on the platform, coupled with the plethora of fantastic tools available to enhance how we collaborate with our community there makes it the clear choice of where we need to centralize our efforts.
Over the coming weeks you will receive an email to the account used to register on this forum to invite you to join the Dead by Daylight Discord and receive a special role in that Server highlighting you as a forum member. There will also be a dedicated channel in the Discord structured for the long form, threaded content you are renowned for and accustomed to, so that you can continue your discussions.
From the bottom of our hearts, we want to thank you for your support and the passion you have brought to these forums all these years. You have been a foundational, core element of this community and we do not take this change lightly. We know many of you have built bonds and connections with each other, and even directly with our team, because of this platform and we’ll always honour that.
We look forward to continuing our journey together with you on the official Discord server and seeing you remain a vital part of our community. Thanks again.
The Dead by Daylight Team
As you’re all aware, we are currently in our 10th year of operating Dead by Daylight as a live game. While the dev team is looking at numerous ways to update, improve, and modernize the game to carry us through the next 10 years, we are doing this on the community side of things as well.
Improving the community side in much the same way you 'improved' anti-tunnel, I see.
I do like that this thread is filled with lament, even though on any other day, there'd be squabbles. The forums are a pit of misery, but dammit, they're OUR pit of misery.
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@FoxGhoul said:
one, lethal only give lethal at the start for 9 sec not the whole match like windows, and nowhere is only 5 sec and has an activation requirement. windows gives you permanent aura reading all match. That brain dead perk had no activation requirement, no duration, no cooldown, nothing. It gave you FREE value for doing nothing, you didnt even need to earn it, to be fair almost all killer perks.
and nowhere is only 5 sec and has an activation requirement.
Would WoO have been more fair if survivors also had to just press a single button?
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Quit.
I enjoy MOBAs, but they have a tendency to develop into habits for me. And when they become habits, you play them a lot and thus get invested. Usually, your enjoyment from it also gradually declines, which lets frustrations take over.
So I quit. And then months or years later, I can pick it up again and get into it kinda fresh, and the cycle repeats.
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@Strange_Quark said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4119265#Comment_4119265
well theyve got a lot time in the game and know way more than me. i like to watch otz and hens a lot and they def know a ton. got to defer to people who know more than u and they seem to have a good rep itd be silly to ignore knowledge like that imo
I want to point out that BHVR has been listening to these people for a few years now, and the general sentiment has not improved. Survivor experience keeps getting worse and there's zero noticeable improvement in killer attitudes towards the game.
So judging just by results, I'd say we should change course.
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@Nazzzak said:
Poor matchmaking is an ongoing thing, but they apparently expect the more experienced players to carry the least experienced ones
And then they yoinked the best tool for it with the StB nerf.
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@crogers271 said:
I still don't get the idea on why StB being used more than once a match is problematic. If there are two or more survivors the killer never finds/avoids and they get to use it, then the perk is doing what it is supposed to do.
Otherwise, yeah on what you typed.
It seems specifically targeted to make sure that StB doesn't work against unga-bunga tunnelling anymore.
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@Slurp_Ramen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4118267#Comment_4118267
I don’t like WoO because it lowers the skill ceiling of the game, it also lowers the skill floor, which I’m completely fine with as we shouldn’t be punishing new players even more.
But the problem is it doesn’t lower the ceiling in a fun or interesting way, it just incentivizes you to turn your brain off and run to yellow pre drop and pre run, without having to learn tile spawns, tile weights, and resource management(this is the big one as you can severely screw your team over) ; which are fundamental parts of the macro game for survivor to keep tabs on and learn.
I don’t think it’s overpowered nor do I think it’s overly unhealthy but it does encourage a lack of thinking in the average player which over time will make you worse, because while everyone else is learning the game you’re falling behind and you don’t even know it.
I may have to check my bias here though, because I’m a big believer in self improvement and just learning the deep systems and mechanics of games and overall strategy/knowledge as a whole, I get not every player is like that, nor wants the experience I’m looking for. So perhaps it’s not my place to be discussing such things. But this is where I’m coming from personally.
And on a note about pain res, I think it’s completely fine when not stacked with other regression perks. because it actually does encourage you think about the game on a deeper level, you have to actually get a down to even use it, you have to track which survivors you already use pain res on, whether or not you wanna use the pain res right now or bank it for later , take note on where you’re looping and if you can make it to a scourge hook in time before a gen pops. It’s definitely a far cry from its initial debut of essentially infinite stacks of uncounterable regression.
Perhaps im being too reductive when it comes to WoO and the brain power it takes to use it though.
When I think of healthy perks a few things come to mind: does it meaningfully change the way you play the game, does it encourage you to interact with the games systems in a different way, is the effect noticeable for 1 or both sides, bonus points if it encourages your opponent to play around it in a back and forth. And perhaps the most important thing is it fun which of course is purely subjective.But the problem is it doesn’t lower the ceiling in a fun or interesting way, it just incentivizes you to turn your brain off and run to yellow pre drop and pre run
That's not the skill ceiling, that's the skill floor.
WoO does nothing to the skill ceiling.
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@ForTheEntity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4117847#Comment_4117847
In that day we were forced to look for survivors because we didn't have the tools to easily find them. It was a time before close range aura reading or killer instinct that lead to downs.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4117859#Comment_4117859
When one plays killer what's more fun searching for hiding survivors or chasing survivors? I know I'd rather take the nastiest bully squad rather than a pack of coward Claudettes because with bullies at least the game is engaging. For this reason I can see why BHVR has developed a policy against longer term stealth plays.
But there is still room for shorter term stealth plays such as with Bite the Bullet or Quick & Quiet + Head On, spots where you can make the killer lose a chase or trick them into a stun. This is fun and engaging and should be encouraged.
But having one or more teammate(s) hide for a lot of the match and never get hooked while the rest of the team assumes all the risk and damage is something that should be discouraged. If people want to play Hide & Seek go play Prop Hunt or something, DbD is a chase game.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4117957#Comment_4117957
Uncounterable but very imperfect information and 5% haste while never in a chase for the cost of a whole perk slot? Seems like a fair trade to me. At least a perk slot occupied by Whispers is a perk slot not occupied by an aura or slowdown perk.
In that day we were forced to look for survivors because we didn't have the tools to easily find them. It was a time before close range aura reading or killer instinct that lead to downs.
Yeah, that's the exact problem.
Intel got powercrept to hell and back and now everyone's acting like the game's non-functional without killers being given permanent, direct access to survivors' exact locations 24/7.
It wouldn't kill you to look. It didn't kill them, either.
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@NordSahne said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4117845#Comment_4117845
"How is it NOT fair? You're only pointing at a survivor perk offering a benefit to survivors and going 'wow, that's broken, nerf pls' without ever arguing what exactly is so broken about it!"
So you just ignored everything I wrote? It is broken, because it can easily deny a kill, do I have to explain to you how a 1v3 is stronger for killer than a 1v4 and that Shoulder is the only perk or mechanic in the game, that can actively do that, by just shifting hook stages? It is broken, because a death hook becomes a non death hook, you literally deny deaths, which is an essential part of the game and a way to pressure and the downside so far was laughably low, that is the gamebreaking thing that goes against core mechanics of the game, what is stronger then denying a teammate dying? And the best part, the perk does the same thing as before even after the nerf, you can still deny a death, it is just more risky now
"Keep in mind, ALL of them got nerfed already too, so this is more lip-service than anything."
They rebuffed DS, buffed babysitter, OTR got nerfed, that is true, but 40 seconds are more than enough for anti tunnel, so it still does it job, BT is in a weird place and could be problematical at some point, DH is still one of the best perks, Bloodrush got buffed into a good anti tunnel perk, every new killer is getting a build in anti camp and anti tunnel feature, so what are you talking about exactly? Nothing of what you said is true so far, that is impressiveIt is broken, because it can easily deny a kill
So can flashlights, For the People, Power Struggle… If anything, you could argue those are stronger, because they completely deny hookstates, as opposed to just shifting them around.
The only thing you're on about here so far is just the novelty of it.
It is broken, because a death hook becomes a non death hook
And someone else is one hookstate closer to death, that's the counterbalance. You're acting like the hookstate just goes up in smoke!
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@Slurp_Ramen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4117869#Comment_4117869
it’s strong because the killer is weakest, conversely, the survivors are strongest when all 4 are alive. StB pushes this concept to the enth degree compared to similar perks that prevent a survivor death.
It also throws a wrench in the macro play of the game by removing most of the pressure you’ve built up trying to get that first survivor out of the game.
’just spread the first 4 hooks’ is a hell of lot easier said than done. Survivors can hide, the good chasers can make themselves known, a weak link may be present, different killers also play a role; on trapper or skull merchant I’m not gonna waste my time chasing someone outside of my web. There’s just too many factors at play that work against spreading the first 4 hooks (although this is getting better with perks like ravenous after the patch, or grim embrace), but for the average killer it’s not worth spreading hooks early game.
Even if you do spread hooks, if the best player on the team uses StB on someone him being on death hook won’t matter too much if the game is already over by the time you can secure the down, you could argue skill issue here which is fair.
Trying so hard to secure that first kill only for that pressure to be taken away can be a massive kick to the nuts.It harms the Marco and moral of the killer if you don’t play in a specific way or you have to go in expecting to play against it, that’s why it’s strong. Kinda like post rework dead hard where you just had to assume every survivor had it and hold off on the M1 because it was so good.
And can you remind me of “distortion debacle” so I know what we’re talking about?it’s strong because the killer is weakest, conversely, the survivors are strongest when all 4 are alive.
Tunnelling's been tolerated for all these years and has been getting buffed lately, which is basically the mirror version of this, so if that's fine, why isn't this?
You can't expect to pass tunnelling off as 'no big deal' and then stamp 'OP' on a perk that blocks it, specifically because it blocks it.
And this isn't so much to do with your personal opinion on tunnelling, but it's abundantly clear that BHVR is moving the game in that direction, so with that in mind, why would this perk be considered strong?
It also throws a wrench in the macro play of the game
Not from a design perspective.
The term 'macro' tends to get tossed out when killers are forced out of the single strategy that is the answer to every problem.
It's not 'macro play' when your obvious answer, every time, is to go for the one with the most hookstates. And you can still do that here, because StB doesn't void hookstates, it just transfers them.
Tunnelling just becomes less rewarding when you slam your face into a wall of 3 StBs, but at that point, that's very much a you problem for not adjusting your strategy accordingly.
But then, we also had this with DS and in that case, the 'macro play' of just unga-bunga tunnelling won out in the end by getting DS knee-capped so that you could just tunnel through it.
Survivors can hide, the good chasers can make themselves known, a weak link may be present
As long as they're not doing gens, what do you care? Keep in mind that every survivor hooked once means one less StB to worry about, since you can't meaningfully use it on someone with one hookstate, and you can't meaningfully use it when you're on one hookstate yourself.
Ironically, this 'problem' you bring up is actually macro play, just expanded beyond 'target weakest link until dead'.
but for the average killer it’s not worth spreading hooks early game.
And now it might be, which expands your macro play.
Even if you do spread hooks, if the best player on the team uses StB on someone him being on death hook won’t matter too much if the game is already over by the time you can secure the down, you could argue skill issue here which is fair.
Not only is this skill issue, but this is also the opposite of what you're arguing.
If the best looper on the team ditches hookstates for the benefit of weaker teammates, that's the survivor team's most valuable resource being swapped for worse, with added risk of losing even more.
But that does require macro play beyond 'if unhooked = chase'.
And can you remind me of “distortion debacle” so I know what we’re talking about?
Massive powercreep in killer aura reading → Survivors pick up Distortion → Killers complain → Distortion dumpstered, cementing new baseline.
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@Slurp_Ramen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4117701#Comment_4117701
Extremely strong effect for not that bad of downside, especially is the killer isn’t proxy camping. People already hate proxy camping/back to hook Barry’s and STB encourages it to be countered; because the broken is so long killers like wraith can finish up whatever they’re doing across the map without feeling rushed to run back to hook immediately, and can catch people at the tail end of their broken for an easy down.
And it’s value exponentially increased the more people who have it so the survivors can essentially control the flow because they can keep spreading hooks states out across the team keeping everyone out of harms way.
It now making you injured and broken is a way better effect across the board for every type of killer, and it not being able to be stacked solves it edge case problems of top end survivors stacking it. Now it’s more comparable to something like weaving spiders when it comes to a trade off perk.
Additionally now it can be used in combination with injured perks which has the potential to be fun, one off the top of my head is dead hard if you’ve been hooked and use STB you still have a safety net to fall back on if the killer finds you.My one big wish is to let you see other survivor perks in the lobby, because in solo queue if multiple people are running STB are running it only one gets to actually use it leaving however many people with wasted slots. So that’s pretty dumb.
It went from OP to balanced (as I mentioned in another comment before, it just looks like a super bad trash perk by comparison, the community has long since misunderstood what an actual balanced perk is because for some reason everyone [hyperbole] thinks not broken OP = trash), if it were to get buffed what would you change? I’d say decrease the broken now that vigil has been nerfed if it’s too long, or increase the available STB’s per trial to 2 instead of 1 so it’s not a dead perk slot for some people.Extremely strong effect for not that bad of downside
This isn't really giving me anything to work with.
'This is OP'
'Why?'
'Because it's really strong'
Like, I get that that's the part that you're saying, but no one is able to illustrate what's so far outside the boundaries of normal play. Like old heal-stacking going so high that you can heal survivors faster than the killer can injure them, that one I absolutely get, or direct comparisons between perks to show that one is just objectively better than another option, fine.
But StB is moving a hookstate around and everyone's parroting the word 'strong' without actually explaining why or how. I get that being able to pull someone off death hook without them immediately being at risk of getting killed is good, sure, but the value of hookstates fluctuates tremendously anyway.
If killers can get a kill in as little as three hooks, why is it a problem when survivors stack their perk loadout in order to make the first kill take more than three hooks?
It just feels like a repeat of the Distortion debacle where killers push the envelope on how much they can shortcut the game, and when survivors get something that resets the playing field, 'that's too strong'.
If you spread the first four hooks, StB is only going to help the killer. So why is that so strong?
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/472338/upcoming-sp-nerf-makes-no-sense
They literally explained it to you. It can lead to situations where the killer goes back to hook because if a bunch of survivors are running it where else can you go? Like anything its another perk where, by itself isn't a problem, but if 4 survivors stack it, it is suddenly a massive problem.
Back in my day, killers used to actually look for survivors…
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@NordSahne said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4117824#Comment_4117824
Because if we gonna do that, then there is no reason to not allow killer perks that change gen progress of finished gens, shift gate progress or even shift hook stages as the killer, just look at it the other way around, should killers be able to shift hook stages? No, because that is going to lead to some bs scenarios and it is really powerful, so why should it be okay for survivors to do it, isn't it just as powerful? Answer, it is, it is by far the strongest perk swfs can use, If you want anti tunnel tools then there are other alternatives out there already and you don't even have to use it as an anti tunnel perk, a killer could not tunnel and simply get 2 hooks on the same survivor, while 2 others have 1 and the fourth one was hiding and doesn't have a single hook and can just trade it to get rid of all the pressure, how is that fair? It is just like people "abusing" DS not as anti tunnel, but use it aggressively. They should never ######### around with those kind of changes
Because if we gonna do that, then there is no reason to not allow killer perks that change gen progress of finished gens, shift gate progress or even shift hook stages as the killer
No reason? Really?
Aside from the fact that this game is an ASYMMETRICAL, and not everything needs to have a direct opposite copy?
Besides, if you were to make a proper comparison, the killer version of STB would only allow you to undo one gen completion, but at the expense of having all that progress funnelled into other gens, AND those other gens repairing twice as fast for two minutes as well. You really think any killer is going to take that perk? Even if you use it to restore a 3-gen, you're not holding that against +100% repair speed, are you?
Answer, it is, it is by far the strongest perk swfs can use
If you want to talk about equivalencies, if the strongest thing swiffers can do is undo a turbo-tunnel on one target, guess what that says about tunnelling?
Keeping StB wouldn't need a new perk to have the equivalent on the killer side because they already have it. Basekit, to boot!
If you want anti tunnel tools then there are other alternatives out there already
Keep in mind, ALL of them got nerfed already too, so this is more lip-service than anything.
a killer could not tunnel and simply get 2 hooks on the same survivor, while 2 others have 1 and the fourth one was hiding and doesn't have a single hook and can just trade it to get rid of all the pressure, how is that fair?
How is it NOT fair? You're only pointing at a survivor perk offering a benefit to survivors and going 'wow, that's broken, nerf pls' without ever arguing what exactly is so broken about it!
You don't like it, I get that, but the only thing you're construing is that the perk does a thing and then you're just shutting down from there.
'You're losing all pressure!'
Having four survivors all on one hook stage and one survivor exposed for a very long time is not 'no pressure'. You're not given nothing in return, you're given new opportunities.
Not to mention that every bit of power you're trying to heap onto StB here is something that's just basekit for the killer.
This is ALSO not to mention that this is the ONE situation in which StB is unchanged.
It is just like people "abusing" DS not as anti tunnel, but use it aggressively.
Oh lord, you're one of those.
*Lays on the ground. MENACINGLY!*
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@NordSahne said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4117579#Comment_4117579
Tunneling yes, changing hookstages not, that is the equivalent of changing gen progress, it should never happen, I doubt they gonna introduce the deactivation clause for other perks though, except really game breaking ones, but we don't have these after that anymore
Tunneling yes, changing hookstages not, that is the equivalent of changing gen progress, it should never happen
Why shouldn't it?
Why are those sacrosanct when, on the killer side, the game has changed so dramatically over the years?
Horror requires dynamism, all stress all the time doesn't work. Tunnelling is just fundamentally anti-horror, but that keeps getting more and more focus.
Tunnelling has ripped this game apart and fundamentally altered its nature and composition, but when survivors level the playing field 'that's just messing with fundamental stuff, and that shouldn't happen'.
When killers got more aura reading than they knew what to do with and axed the concept of stealth and hide-and-seek from the game, those same fundamentals weren't protected either, so why should they be now?
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@Slurp_Ramen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4117581#Comment_4117581
anti-tunnel- is your only leg to stand on, I agree it could be better especially against the better killers but STB needed a slap on the wrist
Camping- is only as good as the survivors let it; is only effective in end game for the average killer, or if the killer is running a meme build (basement bubba)
Slugging- situational, killer dependent, and lastly anti slug perks are super good right now.
Yes killers with still slug, tunnel, and camp but what do any of the perks in this patch have to do with those playstyles? (besides BT, STB, and insidious)
anti-tunnel- is your only leg to stand on, I agree it could be better especially against the better killers but STB needed a slap on the wrist
Why?
I've seen a couple of people echo the same sentiment, but never explain what is so OP about STB.
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@SpyUA said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4117211#Comment_4117211
I think you are misunderstanding the point of my statement, I don't those aspects are what affects perk balance the most.
survivor perk with a pickrate gets marched straight to the guillotine.
High pick rate = strong perk, windows if opportunity has the highest pick rate and it's used in high MMR (so it's not just a perk for survivors to learn location of pallets and windows). Lithe will definitely won't get nerfed as it was literally a worst version of Sprint burst.
Bhvr is trying to shake up the meta and that's instantly a problem, strong killer perks are getting nerfed as well. Bhvr only recently started nerfing best survivor perks and people are already complaining (5 perks of bets survivor perks got changed) and there will be buffs to other perks.
Pain res has the highest pick rate on killer side as it's the strongest perk on the killer side and it did get nerfed multiple times but it's still used as it's the only remote slowdown basically, personally I think it's very overrated, you can fully counter it with repressed alliance now as well.
High pick rate = strong perk
No, you're the one who doesn't understand it, because this is decidedly not true.
Take the nerf to Sprint Burst for an immediate showcase of why and how this is not true. With SB taking a nerf, Lithe's pickrate is going to go up. Does this mean Lithe got stronger? Obviously not, since it went unchanged.
That's why I mentioned that there's two aspects of survivor perk balance, and these nerfs are only focused on one of the two. The perks that are on the chopping block are by no means overpowered, but they are highly picked because survivor perks are generally so garbage-tier that anything that's remotely usable quickly starts to stand out.
Lithe will definitely won't get nerfed as it was literally a worst version of Sprint burst.
Not by your own logic, because now it's definitely a 'strong perk', with its pickrate inevitably rising now that its competition is dead in the water.
Bhvr only recently started nerfing best survivor perks and people are already complaining
They've been on a nerfing spree for ages now, and the supply of usable survivor perks keeps shrinking further.
I also want to point out that this has gone so far down the line by now that the devs have legitimately lost sight of perk balance on the survivor side, which is how we wound up with the initial incarnations/drafts of Invocations and Steadfast.
Pain res has the highest pick rate on killer side as it's the strongest perk on the killer side and it did get nerfed multiple times but it's still used as it's the only remote slowdown basically
Firstly, that doesn't matter. High pick rate = strong perk, right? That means Pain Res is overpowered and needs to be nerfed further.
Secondly: Surge, Deadlock, Eruption, Turn Back the Clock, Dead man's Switch…
@Your_Dad_Playing_DbD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4117280#Comment_4117280
Ok that’s an option too, but will you apply that to both killer and survivor side then?
Killers have been getting new toys to play with. The top most-picked killer perks is a jumble from across the game's history.
Meanwhile, 8/10 of the most picked survivor perks on Nightlight are from the first three years of the game's release, with six of them being from year 1, IIRC. The only newcomers that breached the meta being Finesse and Five Moves Ahead. The latter of which is slated for nerfs already.
Of course, part of this is that killers are very varied and thus new perks more easily find a place into some killer's build, but it's also definitely true that new shoots in the survivor scene get ripped out at an alarming pace. Just look at what happened to fog vials…
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@SpyUA said:
StB is one of the strongest perks in the game especially in swf and very strong in comp, it's even banned.
It's Windows of opportunity, not pallets of opportunity. Like FMA and WoO need to have a separate identity and they are definitely not "balanced", a balanced perk wouldn't be the most used perk in the game as there would be better perks to use.
a balanced perk wouldn't be the most used perk in the game as there would be better perks to use.
There's two aspects to survivor perk balance:
1: How it stacks up against other survivor perks
2: How it stacks up against the killer
The second version should be the primary concern, but it seems that we're going by the first now.
Which means any survivor perk with a pickrate gets marched straight to the guillotine.
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IIRC, BHVR stated that the vast majority of players were solos, but that was quite a while ago and it may have changed in the meantime.
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Jesse Faden perk: Benicoff TV.
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@Hopi said:
I'm not forcing anyone to play against me. They are playing Dead by Daylight out of their own free will (at least I hope so), thereby accepting anything that the game can throw at them.
They don't get to cherry-pick the parts that they like. And if that doesn't work for them, they can stop playing at any time. Just close the game and play something else.
They don't get to cherry-pick the parts that they like.
Correct, only killers get to do that!
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@Piruluk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4114460#Comment_4114460
The question though how far the devs can push survivor players around?
As in is there a risk the game eventually collapsing because of imbalance?
I feel like survivor is there for killer entertainment without any agency, and getting worse by each new killer and rebalance as in constant survivor nerfs.
The question though how far the devs can push survivor players around?
So far, the answer has consistently been 'a little further still'.
Though given that there's now rising complaints about killer queue times, maybe we'll finally get the anti-6.1.
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@FerrousFacade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4114423#Comment_4114423
Have you ever actually looked at the rulesets? Because a TON of killer perks and tactics are also banned, who is expected to win is highly dependent on the killer.
IIRC, there was also a no-holds-barred style tournament at one point, and it resulted in a surprisingly balanced outcome.
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@NekoTorvic said:
I'm not sure a single survivor perk should destroy a killer's build if it's fully dedicated to aura. Distortion does it's job. It saves you from aura read at certain times, and it tells you what aura reading the killer has, which can then help you play around it.
If the killer is dedicating their whole build to aura, to the point they exhaust distortion, then I think it's fair that a survivor who finds that to be an issue should dedicate more of their own build to anti aura perks.
Edit: In fact, I don't even think a single survivor perk should counter even a single killer aura perk fully. The killer has 4 perks to the survivors' 16.I'm not sure a single survivor perk should destroy a killer's build if it's fully dedicated to aura.
Good news: It never did. Sufficient aura reading could always eat through Distortion faster than it could regenerate.
If the killer is dedicating their whole build to aura, to the point they exhaust distortion, then I think it's fair that a survivor who finds that to be an issue should dedicate more of their own build to anti aura perks.
Those 'anti-aura' perks are exceedingly few in number. There's Distortion and Shadowstep and that's about it.
Not to mention that with current Distortion, the amount of aura reading required to exhaust it is one (1) perk, since Distortion doesn't recharge anymore, except in chase, at which point you no longer need aura reading.
In fact, I don't even think a single survivor perk should counter even a single killer aura perk fully. The killer has 4 perks to the survivors' 16.
Yet more good news: It never did that, either. For some reason, people seem to think that one survivor bringing Distortion protects ALL survivors from aura reading, but I'm not sure where people got that from.
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@NeverSolus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113704#Comment_4113704
Forgive formatting: I'm unsure how you did that, but I do like the organization of it. I'm going to shorten your quotes not to misquote you, but for brevity and avoiding a wall of text. Or, I guess, more of a wall of text. (Edit: Found how ya did it. Yipee.)
I think it's a pretty fair assumption that you are arguing from an expectation that this survivor should drop said tool.While it's not directly telling them to give up, it IS telling them that they can't use those tools that give them an advantage in this field, or else you'll tunnel.
No. No, it's not a fair assumption that I am arguing with an expectation they should drop the tool. My problem is not with survivor agency. I don't mind ignoring someone running SB - it's just part of the game to me. I'm happy to ignore them and kill the weaker links in the team structure. That's how this game works. My problem isn't that SB exists nor is my problem that they should drop it. My problem is that as long as one person has it and another does not, this creates a more obvious disparity that can, will, and should be taken advantage of by a killer, leading to a phenomenon most people find distasteful: Tunneling.But it makes it a colossal problem. Because it's not -just- Lithe. It's also Overcome, and Dead Hard, and Dramaturgy, and whatever other tool they might deploy in chase that you don't like. So Sprint Burst is on the chopping block today, what about tomorrow? And the day after?Are we going down the list until every single chase-perk is banned?
No. Chase perks are not the problem. The disparity of one person having them and the other person not on a given survivor team is the problem. I would have no problem with a team of four survs all running lithe, or SB : In such events my argumentation that they cause tunneling would not hold up to scrutiny. My problem is that insofar as they perks exist, a state in created in which either all survivors are bottlenecked into running one, or they accept not running them leads to being the easier target and thus being tunneled.Yes, and this is fundamentally the purpose of survivor perks that are oriented on chases. This is a very wide swath of survivor perks that are all susceptible to the exact same argument.
Yes. That is touching on my precise issue. I celebrate perk variety on both sides, but the survivors have a unique issue: What do you do if someone runs four boon perks, while everyone else has a distribution of chase, information, and gen perks? Nothing. The boon player dies first, more than likely, and the scenario all but assured the killers most valid option is to tunnel them whether they like it or not.
If there was an allotment that made Survivors pick a chase perk this would not be an issue, but as a result of them existing, it further galvanizes killers to tunnel. Note I said further galvanizes them, as I'm under no illusion that either side is going to stop moving goal-posts on this. Some killers will always tunnel, some survs will always call things tunneling when they are not. I'm under no illusion otherwise.The only way that people seem to be willing to 'fix tunneling' is via one singular solution: Nerf survivors.
+No amount of survivor nerfs will EVER end the use of this argument.Ultimately, this means that the line '[Perk] encourages tunneling and thus should be nerfed' is an eternal complaint that leverages an advantage killers already have in order to create an even bigger advantage.This is just an us vs. them argument wrapped in a bow, but I don't think you're doing it disingenuously or maliciously. I do not care if Killers will eternally cry about something, just as I do not care if Survivors will eternally cry about something. The frequency and constancy of moving goal posts on both sides is not productive and I am not bothered by it.
However saying 'nerf survivors' is the only fix is a cop-out for both of us. We can do better than that. There are options. Specifying chase as a required perk slot isn't something I like the idea of, but it would be a solution and most survivors already do this and thus would not consider it a nerf. Alternatively we could institute hard punishments on Killers for tunneling.
Simply throwing our hands up and bemoaning the past dictating the future is the exact sort of self-fulfilling prophecy I'd like to avoid.
As I said before, to regard theNo amount of survivor nerfs will EVER end the use of this argument.I do not care. It's a gradient. Some survivors will always want more. Some killers will always want more. That doesn't make an argument invalid, and it doesn't make the problem not a problem. This fatalism isn't going to lead to anything productive by just dismissing arguments out of hand.
By means of beating the dead horse:
"Burning fossil fuels creates pollution!"Well we'll stop that.
"Burning forests creates pollution."Nope, we already stopped fossil fuels 'cause you said that was doing it.
"Spraying aerosol's creates pollution."Well you're never going to be happy so I'm tired of hearing this 'causes pollution' argument.
The argument being tiresome doesn't mean the argument does not contain validity.
(And for anyone reading, that example was a hyperbolic example that is a strawman. Not meant to replace or invalidate Firellius' argument in any way. Please do not treat it as such.)Forgive formatting: I'm unsure how you did that, but I do like the organization of it.
It's quote formatting. On PC, if you use the [>] symbol and then add a space, it'll create a quote block.
My problem is that as long as one person has it and another does not, this creates a more obvious disparity that can, will, and
shouldbe taken advantage of by a killer, leading to a phenomenon most people find distasteful: Tunneling.And my problem with that argumentation is that there is no limit to this. You can demand an endless cascade of survivor nerfs on the basis of 'chase too hard, so I started tunnelling'.
Also, I find it disingenuous to bring this 'I don't mind' energy when you firstly, specifically, said this:
And, frankly speaking, SB just led to people getting tunneled. It's a good thing that it took a back seat.
Because that is a pretty solid value judgement for someone who claims to not mind or care. If this was not the solution you wanted, why defend it?
My problem is that insofar as they perks exist, a state in created in which either all survivors are bottlenecked into running one, or they accept not running them leads to being the easier target and thus being tunneled.
Again, though, this argument does go all the way down the ladder to every single thing a survivor can do or bring. Thus this 'good thing' does not solve the problem at hand at all.
Yes. That is touching on my precise issue. I celebrate perk variety on both sides, but the survivors have a unique issue: What do you do if someone runs four boon perks, while everyone else has a distribution of chase, information, and gen perks? Nothing. The boon player dies first, more than likely, and the scenario all but assured the killers most valid option is to tunnel them whether they like it or not.
If there was an allotment that made Survivors pick a chase perk this would not be an issue, but as a result of them existing, it further galvanizes killers to tunnel.
This is either short-sighted or dishonest, though. Firstly, even if you do lock in that survivors must always bring one chase perk, what do you do if someone brings two?
So then you lock it to no more than one, but then the rest of the build is on the chopping block, because any disparity there can also 'galvanize killers to tunnel'.
So if you want to argue that
My problem is not with survivor agency.
making 'solution' suggestions that bind survivors' agency is not the best way to go.
Ultimately, the true problem is that tunnelling is a viable option to begin with, and constantly layering nerfs and restrictions on the survivor side is just kicking the can down the road at the expense of those most frustrated by the problem to begin with.
However saying 'nerf survivors' is the only fix is a cop-out for both of us.
I'm not saying it's the only fix, far from it.
I'm saying it's the fix that gets most consistently suggested.
As I said before, to regard the
No amount of survivor nerfs will EVER end the use of this argument.I do not care. It's a gradient. Some survivors will always want more. Some killers will always want more. That doesn't make an argument invalid, and it doesn't make the problem not a problem. This fatalism isn't going to lead to anything productive by just dismissing arguments out of hand.The argument is moot, though, because it will never produce a solution. That's the issue. The argument is pointless.
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@Elan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113519#Comment_4113519
It's not bias. The current killers except for 2 - Nurse and Blight can't achieve clear performance even when play perfectly. But that's because all game result depends on how survivors spread across map to gens and if they sit on them all the time.
Hasn't every single killer had a 100+ winstreak already?
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@NeverSolus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113634#Comment_4113634
It is wrong, and I'll thank you to not make assumptions about my opinions before you even inquire to the nature of them. At no point did I come even remotely close to 'If they don't get up I will tunnel.' That's an insultingly low bar strawman to set up for your argumentation with someone whose opinion you don't even understand.
Killers ditching chases that will take too much time is considered broadly a critical skill for killers. Even other survivors on this forum have agreed that SB can cause tunneling. If every time I approach Sable she disappears like a bottle rocket, it's obvious I'm not going to chase Sable. I'm going to start ignoring her outright whenever I have another option. It's not illogical by any measure, and I'm not obligate in any way to chase the Sable in that scenario. So I don't. It's just not efficient.
Yes, the argument could be used on Lithe as well - that doesn't make the argument less valid. Things that create tunneling incentives are things many of us just do not care for. If someone sabo's often, I'm more likely to tunnel them. Same for if one person has SB, I am more likely to ignore them and hit their slower teammates.
The problem isn't that the Sable didn't give up - the problem is that Sable has a tool the others don't that make her disproportionately resource intensive to deal with. So I'll first target people who did not bring that resource. If I kill everyone else first then I'll only need to hunt the Sable once.
This isn't a 'one and done' complaint. Both sides want things that encourage tunneling to be addressed. It's a gradient. It's not as though 'Well now that SB has been nerfed tunneling will not be a thing, right?' That was not, is not, and will never be the point. Equally, we don't want people to just give up or be tunneled. That's a gross mischaracterization.At no point did I come even remotely close to '
If they don't get up I will tunnel.'You are arguing that them using a tool that makes them harder to beat in chase will make you tunnel someone else. Given that you are running this line in defense of a nerf to said tool, I think it's a pretty fair assumption that you are arguing from an expectation that this survivor should drop said tool.
While it's not directly telling them to give up, it IS telling them that they can't use those tools that give them an advantage in this field, or else you'll tunnel.
Yes, the argument could be used on Lithe as well - that doesn't make the argument less valid.
But it makes it a colossal problem. Because it's not -just- Lithe. It's also Overcome, and Dead Hard, and Dramaturgy, and whatever other tool they might deploy in chase that you don't like. So Sprint Burst is on the chopping block today, what about tomorrow? And the day after?
Are we going down the list until every single chase-perk is banned?
the problem is that Sable has a tool the others don't that make her disproportionately resource intensive to deal with.
Yes, and this is fundamentally the purpose of survivor perks that are oriented on chases. This is a very wide swath of survivor perks that are all susceptible to the exact same argument. And you don't even need to stop there, because while one person brings a chase perk, another brings a healing perk and then you can drop the argument that 'healing can make future chases cost resources, so it makes me tunnel the healers!' and then that entire line-up of perks is on the chopping block.
This isn't a 'one and done' complaint.
That is the exact problem.
Both sides want things that encourage tunneling to be addressed.
And that is definitely not true. Because the game's baseline design encourages tunnelling, and we see how 'sides' reacted when BHVR attempted to tackle that one.
The only way that people seem to be willing to 'fix tunnelling' is via one singular solution: Nerf survivors.
And since doing so will not address the root problems with the game's design, IE:
If I kill everyone else first then I'll only need to hunt the Sable once.
No amount of survivor nerfs will EVER end the use of this argument.
Ultimately, this means that the line '[Perk] encourages tunnelling and thus should be nerfed' is an eternal complaint that leverages an advantage killers already have in order to create an even bigger advantage.
And to illustrate, let me pitch something to you that would 'fix' your complaint, that you would probably recognise as something that will -never- be approved for launch:
If one person having SB encourages tunnelling, then from now on, when one person equips SB, all survivors automatically get its benefits.
Problem solved, right?
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@NeverSolus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113513#Comment_4113513
That's just about as uncharitable and disingenuous of an argument as you could make, but sure. Do as you will I guess.
Is it wrong though? Anytime you ditch a chase because it's too hard, you can make the same argument. It's not like this is the first time this excuse has been used, either. And nothing's stopping people from dropping it on Lithe next.
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@NeverSolus said:
There are better perks, there are more effective perks. SB went a long, long time without adjustment and it was a non-trigger speed boost that didn't require positioning or interaction with anything but the shift key to trigger. It should be a weaker haste than lithe, for instance, which requires a vault. It should be meaningfully weaker, and now it is, as it can be done anywhere.
And, frankly speaking, SB just led to people getting tunneled. It's a good thing that it took a back seat. There are other valid options to replace it, so I don't particularly understand people being as heated about the nerf to SB specifically.https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113449#Comment_4113449
Your tone was fine. Some people here take things to personal places rather quickly in an emotional plea they employed to garner them some false authority or clout. It's becoming more and more common lately in the forums. Don't let it bother you. Not that you need to be told.
And, frankly speaking, SB just led to people getting tunneled.
I'm really tired of this argument, because it ultimately boils down to 'If you don't willingly give up, I'll switch targets and tunnel'.
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@DodoSwarm said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113306#Comment_4113306
that is because generalized perks are seen as "Way too strong" hence the fact they are gutting vigil. but ultimately this is STILL a problem of trying to balance an Asymm game around perks rather than around the Asymm elements of the characters. "this perk is too good here so we're nerfing it across the board" is why perks become unviable so fast. people want guaranteed value from their perks mostly, that's why it continues to hit so hard when things like Vigil and SB are super nerfed, because they usually provide some form of value. Perks are all that a survivor is, and as the roster expands and old perks are getting nerfed one by one rarely to return to frontrunner status there's just less generally strong options for your average survivor…
Is it crazy to say that this game is going to run into too many unsolvable problems (Perk Balance, Killer Tier Diff, Copious RNG, Stale Meta, ETC) to where the whole game just needs a reboot?
Distortion doesn't help rats, but it certainly helps against an ever expanding amount of aura reads, i mean lets be honest… Aura Read Judgement would shred through old distortion anyway while on the other hand BBQ on Bubba might not get a single read all game on someone running Distortion, making the perk "too good" and also "not good enough" at the same time where against Lethal and BBQ on someone like Ghoul or Nemesis uses two perk slots for the sake of keeping pressure and knowing where people are but are entirely voided by old Distortion, so why bother bringing them if people are running Distortion a lot? but Judgement, Nurse, even Huntress might Tear Distortion up to the point where its kind of not great, Judgement more than the others. I just don't know how BHVR can even go about balancing situations like this anymore.
Isn't this why exhaustion perks are a mainstay? because regardless of the RNG of killer, map, build, anything… Lithe, SB, DH will always be useful at some level whereas a lot of good Survivor Perks require teammate awareness which all too often they do not have, and there's also the reality that Survivor is kind of encouraged to play for themselves.and there's also the reality that Survivor is kind of encouraged to play for themselves.
More than 'kind of', after that disastrous 'If you ran the killer for five gens but then died, was it really a good play?' remark.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113276#Comment_4113276
It takes away extremely little, though. Even then, the builds it actually severely affects were already not very good, so presumably that's not why people were running them to begin with.
Almost everything is either fully unaffected or only mildly affected, that's kind of the point. It's a system for providing a better baseline, not for seriously affecting what people currently use. Perk variety barely changed either from actual viability or even from pickrate, at least from what I've seen for the latter, because that wasn't the goal to begin with.
But you're not really making an argument about the kind of impact it had, just about its severity.
It's okay that you don't particularly care that a 4-perk healing build is worse, but the point is that it IS worse, and thus less worth running, which takes it off the table, and thus reduces variety.
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@TheMruczek said:
Distortion was nerfed purely becouse people using it were ratting and barely interacting with both their teammates and killer players.
And it shouldn't be buffed, the activation that it has now is perfectly acceptable. I don't need this playstyle to come back just to for my SoloQ teammates to be even more scared of doing something productive.
If you are really concerned about aura reading perks you can run other perks. I favour We see you from Eleven, but you still have Boon Shadowstep and OoO to help you out.
Distortion was nerfed purely becouse people using it were ratting and barely interacting with both their teammates and killer players.
A few problems with that theory.
- 'Ratting' was not the complaint that got Distortion into the crosshairs. The initial pushback against the perk was specifically about its ability to thwart some of the new, powercrept aura perks killers had. For the longest time, BBQ & Chili used to be the primary source of aura reading for killers, with the perk itself specifically being designed to give the killer direction, but not give them a free chase. Nowhere To Hide blew that off its hinges and just gave killers immediate access to chases, on demand. Floods of Rage and Weave Attunement similarly gave killers direct access to chase, rather than just direction. Distortion levelled the playing field back to what it was prior to the intel power-creep, and thus garnered backlash.
- 'Ratting' was not a Distortion problem. The only thing Distortion changed about ratting is, specifically, that it allowed people to stay hidden while doing gens, healing, cleansing hexes and whatever else. Without Distortion, hiding is only possible via lockers, which does force non-interaction.
- The nerf to Distortion was not aimed at 'Ratting', but instead at the original complaint about forcing killers to look for survivors with their own eyes again. If ratting had been the issue, Distortion's recharge could've been tied to conspicuous actions like gen repair, healing, unhooking and hex-cleansing. But it wasn't, it was tied to chases.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4112988#Comment_4112988
Sorry, I definitely am not following.
Most builds unaffected, most affected builds still perfectly fine, a few edge case builds made more inefficient than they already were. How does that destroy variety? A handful of individual builds made arguably non-viable but that weren't incredible in the first place doesn't seem particularly destructive to me.
DBD has a huge breadth of potential variety when it comes to crafting builds and Diminishing Returns affected only a tiny portion of it.
Most builds unaffected, most affected builds still perfectly fine, a few edge case builds made more inefficient than they already were.
That's the exact problem, though. The builds you see the most of, did not get changed. The builds you see the least of, did get nerfed.
So it takes away from what we have too little of, while leaving intact what we have too much of. It just hurts perk variety.
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@Piruluk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113185#Comment_4113185
Circle of Healing now only works for SWF.
In soloq does nothing
Truth be told, I'm pretty sure it doesn't work in swiffers either.
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@Wraff said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4111941#Comment_4111941
Lets not pretend they haven't been doing everything in their power to prevent tunneling for the past three years shall we? Literally getting borrowed time, haste, and now elusive for free for just coming off the Hook.
They promised a big anti-tunnel update, and what they delivered was a 30-second nerf to an anti-tunnel perk.
I think they could've done more, maybe.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4112031#Comment_4112031
Why would you need it for two minutes though? And why would you be doing nothing for two minutes? 20s would be soild, especially since it lasts even through a hit. It's meant to be a protection, not for you to be unfindable until you decide to be so.
Elusive doesn't make you 'unfindable' though.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4110040#Comment_4110040
The current vigil which we just talked about.
'Completely' counter? Vigil? Really?
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@bm33 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4110180#Comment_4110180
There are alot of reasons TCM ended the way it did, DBD players are the only ones that claim it was the victims strength because its used as an excuse for how DBD should be balanced. In the TCM community (when people announce they were leaving or why friends left) the reasons are usually the cheaters at the start and how Gun handled the issue, lack of bug fix updates and bugs like the backfill bug thats existed from the start never being fixed, lack of new content and also it being overpriced, Guns overall attitude towards the playerbase, Gun not addressing the rush meta for both sides, and Gun fairly early on (I think it was around the 1 year anniversary) announcing they "couldn't" increase the level cap which let players know that they weren't actually planning to even support the game long term.
Stun lock and bone scraps were both nerfed not long after the game's release, they were some of the rare things they didn't put off addressing. I still log into TCM, I started playing TCM at the start mainly as a solo family/no mic and usually as Hitchhiker (Cook or Sissy if he was taken). According to the in game stats I have 3257 matches played with 1166 as victim and 2091 as family. For family I had 1046 perfect family wins (4k), anytime last victim would DC to end the game it wouldn't count towards that stat. Outside those perfect wins most of my family matches were 2-3k, 0-1k were not very common. As victim I survived 416 times, only 116 were perfect victim wins (0k). Victims could rush escape but family could just as easily rush basement and kill them all just as fast, it was nearly a guarantee if there was a Leatherface with Johnny or Sissy. Most times the rush was a Connie who would rush escape solo and leave the rest of her team to die.
Johnny and Leatherface weren't the only killers that could 1v1, Sissy and Hitchhiker also won many 1v1 interactions because they could go through cracks/crawlspaces. Johnny and Leatherface weren't necessary for a family win either, I had many 4ks with Hitch/Sissy/Cook combo in solo queue/no mic.
Victims weren't weak but they also were not so strong that they were frequently getting clean sweeps either, atleast not in my solo/no mic family matches. The main issue for family (outside cheaters and bugs) wasn't the strength of victims or even victims that rushed, it was the other family members. Family that would leave doors unlocked, turn off car battery/generator, stay in the basement when victims not only had left the basement but had made their way into the battery/generator areas, or family that would purposely door slam other family. The bad teammates are what pushed players away from family and to victim where they could escape solo (and leave their teammates to die).
I kinda miss TCM. With proper, dedicated support, I wager it could have seriously competed with DBD.
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In fairness, picking a perk runs a very real risk of getting it nerfed, and DS is already bad at its job. If it got another hit...
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109920#Comment_4109920
except it was 40 percent at that value not 66 percent lol that's referring to the tick rate which was 1.66c/s
It's not the value that was the problem it's how it affected every status affect + Exhaustion, I don't think there is anything wrong with something that helps with status effects of specific kinds, but we have nothing of the sort rn and that's what I'm guessing is coming next with perk designs/item designs.
It would just help if they were clear about that.but we have nothing of the sort rn and that's what I'm guessing is coming next with perk designs/item designs.
Watch 'em drop the laziest surv ever with his three perks all giving 30% recovery speed on one status effect each.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4110018#Comment_4110018
Obviously, perks should impact the game. But a single perk should not completely counter an entire killer, that is my point. Survivors have 16 perks to work with between them, and the killer only 4. By definition, the killer perks should be stronger.
But a single perk should not completely counter an entire killer, that is my point.
Which perk does this, exactly?
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@ForTheEntity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109553#Comment_4109553
I never railed against you at all in this thread. Not at all like your first response to me in this thread where every word dripped with rancor. Try not to practice hypocrisy.
You had never said anything about OTR until now. Finally I can understand part of the concept you have in your head.
Honestly, I don't mind most of this but if I were to buff DS I'd give survivors haste during the stun instead of making the stun longer. But I still think DS is in a fine spot now that pallet density has been increased. In most games it's still plenty powerful and it's not like killers only have to endure 1 DS stun per game and only eat those stuns when they are tunneling.
I still believe 6.1.0 removed a fair amount of fun from DbD, fun that is still absent from the game, possibly to never be replaced. One of the best parts of that patch was making Ruin deactivate once a survivor died and they got rid of that. I think a better way to deter tunneling would be to have all regression perks start strong but get a nerf once a survivor dies in the match, and probably disable them altogether once 2 are dead.
There was an exit survey, and tunnelling was the #1 issue recorded.
Where did they share that?
Well, perhaps if they did exit surveys further back tunneling may have always been the #1 issue reported. We'll never know.
This was not really a public match, even if it happened on the public Servers. This was a Comp Team sniping a Comp Killer. Not at all compareable to regular public matches.
Do you know what was compareable to regular public matches? Almost 2000 games of a person making the game miserable for Survivors to boost their ego. But at least the tantrum afterwards was entertaining.
As I said elsewhere in this thread comp is just an easy example to point at. We still have scenarios in public matches where a killer can have their first chase take too long and the other 3 survivors split up and finish 2-3 gens early and the killer may have to try to quickly eliminate a survivor to stay in the game if they want to win. I'm sure it happens many times every day.
The Devs had measurements in their initial proposal, e.g. if a Survivor dies before 6 total Hook States, the remaining Survivors get a repair speed Buff. They could have easily made this more dynamic for example. 6 total Hook States are a reasonable number if we want to rule out tunneling from the start, but they could have adjusted it to be lower when more Gens are completed. E.g. with 4 Gens done, it is only 3 total Hook Stages so that Survivors would not get a Repair Speed Bonus when they are already leading. Or they could have increased the benefits the Killer gets the less Gens are remaining so that Killers who decide not to tunnel will get even stronger when Survivors complete their objective.
I wouldn't mind comeback mechanics for survivors as killers still have tunneling and slugging as powerful comeback mechanics.
I don't think BHVR has the will to develop, test and implement the mechanics themselves. They got rid of Ruin disabling after a kill and as you said they dumpstered that proposal. Probably it'll be modders that do this work and then in 2028 BHVR will copy their work and bring it to live.
I never railed against you at all in this thread.
I outlined the general concept and your first response was to dig in your heels and reject it off the cuff. And to reiterate, anyone that barks about 'forced locker grabs' is disingenuous.
You had never said anything about OTR until now.
But I had mentioned Endurance already.
Honestly, I don't mind most of this but if I were to buff DS I'd give survivors haste during the stun instead of making the stun longer.
Longer stun would work better, since it feels worse for the killer and is overall a bit more costly. Especially if the camera is forced down and they lose sight of the target.
But I still think DS is in a fine spot now that pallet density has been increased. In most games it's still plenty powerful and it's not like killers only have to endure 1 DS stun per game and only eat those stuns when they are tunneling.
If killers are consistently still eating the stun, they are doing so of their own volition. And if they are doing so of their own volition, it means that DS is likely not functioning as a deterrent.
If a killer would rather just tunnel through DS than not tunnel at all, that means DS is just flat-out not doing its job. And it used to.
One of the best parts of that patch was making Ruin deactivate once a survivor died and they got rid of that.
Yeah, the early disable of Ruin being reverted is the other case where BHVR made a decision that was worse for both sides of the aisle. For killers, Ruin was still not worth picking up because it disabling on first death was not a problem at all, it needed its regression rate back, and for survivors it's trash because it got a little stronger when used by a tunneller.
I think a better way to deter tunneling would be to have all regression perks start strong but get a nerf once a survivor dies in the match
That wouldn't do anything, because once a survivor is dead, if the killer keeps the pace, gen progression drops to 0, meaning you don't need your regression perks at all.
and probably disable them altogether once 2 are dead.
And that is complete lip service, because by that point, the game's done.
Where did they share that?
That was the reason they tried to do an anti-tunnel update.
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@ForTheEntity said:
The first paragraph doesn't really respond to anything. Something being a mix of wins and losses goes hand in hand with the idea of both sides having a chance to win. If anything, tunneling works against that rationale as a killer who tunnels takes it out of the hands of most of the survivors and puts it solely in the hands of the tunneled target.
I'm all for both sides having a chance to win which is one of the reasons I really want them to address tunneling.
The 'every match' is difficult given the extreme randomness of match ups that exist in DbD, which is a deeper topic than this thread.
Well sometimes tunneling is a comeback mechanic for killers, so it's a nuanced problem, making tunneling a very hard problem to address. Hence the massive grey area I mentioned earlier.
There's a reason keeping new survivors around has been difficult, and tunneling is one of the primary reasons.
This isn't anything new. DbD has always had a player retention problem. New players join with new licenses and leave when the novelty and/or cakes run out. Who's to say tunneling is more to blame now than any of the other multitude of problems this game has.
I'm not really sure what we're discussing here anymore.
Who's to say tunneling is more to blame now than any of the other multitude of problems this game has.
There was an exit survey, and tunnelling was the #1 issue recorded.
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@ForTheEntity said:
@Firellius
That's kinda the exact problem I'm pointing at. You're not engaging with the concept, you're ruling it out based on a state where it isn't implemented.You still have yet to put anything forward that could be defined as a concept. So what am I not engaging with?
Do you want to delete Endurance and buff DS? Endurance has been proven to be a necessary mechanic ever since Borrowed Time was introduced. So if there was no Endurance for someone recently unhooked but basekit DS (I'm assuming DS has to be basekit as removing basekit BT without compensation would just be a huge survivor nerf) then the correct play for the killer is to always slug them and the go for the rescuer, which would just be massive free pressure because another survivor has to get off their gen to come pick them up. In what currently is the trade scenario where the killer hits the survivor before and after they unhook would turn into something worse than a trade scenario where the correct play for the killer would be to slug the unhooker, down the recently unhooked, leave them slugged and put the rescuer on the hook. Then unless they have enormous pressure and many killers would proxy camp in this position. Just eating the DS stun becomes a really unappealing option since you want it to 5+ seconds.
I don't see any way that this would be an improvement to the game. It would lead to more slugging and camping.
Or do you have something in your head that you have yet to post that would make this "concept" even remotely tenable?
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109454#Comment_4109454
My point is that there is no way for the game to define when tunneling is bad and should be punished or restricted and when its necessary. Comp is just an easy extreme example.
Take 2 lobbies:
- Baby Dwight, Mag, Claudette and Jake with no items.
- 4 SoloQ survivors you've played before, know they are good all with items.
In case 1 clearly tunneling from the start is bad and in case 2 tunneling from the start might be necessary, especially if you're not on your best killer with a less than ideal map.
How is the game supposed to be able to tell the difference?
If it was a a simple black and white issue like 3+ gens tunneling bad & <3 gens left tunneling acceptable then it would be coded into the game. But instead it's all just a huge murky, undefinable (and therefore uncodeable) grey zone.
You still have yet to put anything forward that could be defined as a concept. So what am I not engaging with?
No, I put it forward that DS should be focus of anti-tunnel, instead of Endurance. That is a concept. If you need more clarification, you could ask instead of rail.
Do you want to delete Endurance and buff DS? Endurance has been proven to be a necessary mechanic ever since Borrowed Time was introduced.
Yeah, I wouldn't get rid of basekit BT, but I would strip endurance off OTR and make OTR into total info black-out. This prevents it from overlapping with DS, which causes the weaponisation, and gives OTR a different, also non-weaponisable anti-tunnel effect.
The whole problem with tunnelling got kicked into high gear when 6.1. ripped out DS and put OTR in its place, which was a downgrade for both sides of the aisle. It was worse as anti-tunnel and better against non-tunnellers. It needs to be reverted. DS works better for both parties (Though some may spin up fanciful tales about being 'forced' to grab someone out of a locker) and thus should be brought back.
And in fact, BHVR -knows- DS was an effective tunnelling deterrent, because that is the literal, exact reason we now have an obsession in every match, even if no perk interacts with it. That was implemented because the absence of an obsession meant there was no DS, which gave killers the green light to tunnel, so DS, by itself, was clearly stemming the tide.
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@ForTheEntity said:
Sometimes I dont understand why I take the time to write posts. I even wrote in my very first post that I am not talking about the tunneling which is happening because the Killer would lose the game otherwise. I mean, aside from the fact that we should ignore Comp when it comes to public maches, what do you want me to say? I try, but if you ignore certain points, I dont know anymore. But, again: I am NOT talking about Killers tunneling because they are close to losing and have no other way to win. Survivors usually DONT complain about those. I know that some people twist it like that to have somewhat of an argument, but it is not the truth. I am talking about Killers who go into the game to tunnel and slug from the start.
The biggest problem with DbD is that it has never had the ability to tell the difference between unnecessary tunneling from the get go and necessary tunneling. We can see cases where it actually is necessary to tunnel from the get go, in comp. So where do they draw the line? How can they program the game to know the difference? These are questions with no easy answers. We can't just ignore comp because we can't say that comp style matches don't happen in public DbD matches. The game that ended Momo_Seventh's Blight streak is an example of a comp style public match.
As for your changes to Trapper, Ghostface and Pig… I apologize for asking. I think your killer changes are fine, but this isn't the thread for that discussion.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109326#Comment_4109326
It's just an interesting idea. They could level the playing field by leveling the playing field. Addons like Iridescent Button throw a brutal wrinkle in the idea.
But I do think that having all maps enabled all the time generating the same way for all killers is kind of outdated now that we have so many maps and so many killers, none of which are actually well-balanced, especially now that map offerings have been dumpstered. Scratched Mirror Myers used to be one of my go to builds to play but I haven't even played him a single time since his rework because I know most of the time I'd load into a map where I'm not going to have fun.
You're right it would take a lot of work, work that BHVR most likely won't do.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109329#Comment_4109329
I'm using the current state of the game versus some hazy imaginary new game state you haven't bothered to identify or quantify. All you said was "Focus on DS as a solution, rather than Endurance."
That's kinda the exact problem I'm pointing at. You're not engaging with the concept, you're ruling it out based on a state where it isn't implemented.
It's the difference between 'This wouldn't work with endurance still in play though' and 'DS is actually really strong and abusable so no'.
@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109042#Comment_4109042
The problem is the devs continue to try to deal with these strategies by punishing killers rather than doing what they need to do.
What they need to do is to reward healthy play (on both sides btw), and just make the unhealthy play fundamentally impossible to do instead of punishing it, while creating new mechanics for people to engage with. You don't need to punish tunneling if it literally cannot exist.
What they need to do is to reward healthy play (on both sides btw), and just make the unhealthy play fundamentally impossible to do instead of punishing it, while creating new mechanics for people to engage with. You don't need to punish tunneling if it literally cannot exist.
Sure, but how are you going to do that?
@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109329#Comment_4109329
You miss the point again. In this new world hypothetically, DS shouldn't even exist, because it doesn't need to.
Did you mean to reply to someone else? I haven't commented on your idea, so this seems very much out of left field.
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@ForTheEntity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109322#Comment_4109322
Regardless of your opinion DS is not just an anti-tunnel perk and has been weaponized in the past and continues to be weaponized, especially against newer players or the weaker killers on the roster. It is a general perk now with an already very high usage rate and a long enough stun for someone to be able to easily make it to another pallet thanks to the pallet density changes against basically every killer except Blight or Ghoul. It simply does not need a 5 second stun or any other buffs.
Anyway, I doubt I can change your mind on anything so why bother.
Yeah, thanks, you're still arguing from some spread position where you're using the current game state to argue against an entirely new one. Without Endurance, DS cannot be weaponised. It doesn't matter that DS can be weaponised now if in the new game state it can't.
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@ForTheEntity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109317#Comment_4109317
If you can't carry on a respectful conversation then I don't see the need to have a discussion with you.
Anyone coming at me with 'DS can be weaponised with a forced locker grab' is being horrendously disingenuous at best to start with, anyway.
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@ForTheEntity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109242#Comment_4109242
No. We already dealt with weaponized DS in the past we don't need to revisit that. Good survivors know how to force grabs at lockers and windows so they get DS value. DS is in a perfectly fine place already.
Average kill rates are already below the 60% target so we don't need to buff genrushing with co-op speed bonuses. If BHVR took your ludicrous suggestion of inverting co-op repair speed penalties 3 survivors would be able to pound out a gen from zero to done in under 24 seconds instead of the ~43s we have now. And that would be basekit without survivors bringing single gen perk or toolbox. Killers would have to run full regression builds and slug and/or tunnel at 5 gens just to have a chance at winning. What an absolute nightmare that would be.
Good survivors know how to force grabs at lockers
Oh, do enlighten me! This one should be good!
Pray tell, how does someone force a locker grab, hm? What situation is there where a killer is -forced- to go after a survivor that is taking himself out of the game, run up to their locker, and press interact?
'Cause they're sure as hell not bodyblocking from the locker, are they?
The only reason DS is currently a potential problem is because of Endurance. Someone bodyblocks with that, you can normally punish them by chasing them, but DS goes against that.
Without Endurance, though, if they try to bodyblock, they get slugged, which is extremely costly to the survivors.
Provided, of course, you don't let yourself get baited into picking them up. Which I understand is a problem that you specifically seem to be having, since you struggle to stop yourself from tunnelling into obvious DS bait.
Average kill rates are already below the 60% target
As evidenced by? Majority of players here have shown KRs well above, and every time BHVR shows stats (deflated by excluding games with disconnects) the KRs have been well above target.
If BHVR took your ludicrous suggestion of inverting co-op repair speed penalties 3 survivors would be able to pound out a gen from zero to done in under 24 seconds instead of the ~43s we have now.
Ah, I see you have run a number crunch without having any actual numbers.
Remember where I said this?
make gens slower when solo'd
What gave you the impression we'd still be looking at 90 charge gens?
Perhaps you should consider the outlined principle of the idea before flying off the handle with wild guesstimations.
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@ForTheEntity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109050#Comment_4109050
This is a great post. As a serial SoloQ I know my internal chronometer starts ticking really loud once a match has gone on too long and I reach a point where I'd rather be dead and the rest of my team be damned than keep competing in a gone-stale match. Often these are games where killers prioritize gen defense rather than engaging in chases.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109065#Comment_4109065
How would you change tunneling without wrecking the game?
We know by looking at comp matches that at that level tunneling is a very necessary mechanic in the game. Even in normal public matches if a group of 4 good survivors get a good map like Springwood against many killers it might be necessary for a killer to tunnel if they want to win. Anyone who's played killer any significant amount has been in a match where if they didn't tunnel at a certain point they were throwing the game.
Yes, hard tunneling at 5 gens is bad but how do you solve that problem without wrecking what is a necessary comeback mechanic for killers when 4 good survivors are still alive and only 1-2 gens are left?
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109070#Comment_4109070
We have a massive roster of extremely varied killers of quite unbalanced strengths. Why is it so out of line in your opinion that maps should still generate the same way for all killers all the time?
I think it would be much easier to make it so a few less pallets spawn and a bit more distance generates between loops for killers like Trapper, Ghostface and Pig because they are always a slow 4.6 m/s or slower and have to actually kick every pallet with the 2.7 second animation. More pallets should spawn for killers like Billy and Blight who have great mobility AND the ability to break pallets as fast as a wood chipper. And I don't think it has to be drastically more or less pallets it could be as little as -3 for the D tier killers and +3 for S tier.
Rebalancing map generations based on the killer played is much more feasible than reworking killers. How do you buff Trapper, Ghostface and Pig without completely changing their identities?
How would you change tunneling without wrecking the game?
Focus on DS as a solution, rather than Endurance. DS works as a deterrent if the stun is long enough, meaning it needs to go back to 5 seconds or higher. Since DS requires the killer's input to function, it cannot be 'used offensively', since trying to bodyblock with it will result in the survivor becoming incapacitated, which hinders them more than the killer.
Then check if the killrates actually drop below target rates, because we have no way of knowing if they will or not.
If they do, first change on the docket is to invert the co-op repair speed penalty and make gens slower when solo'd and faster when there's at least three survivors on one gen. This makes it so that the safest way of doing gens (Split up) is not also the fastest way, leaving survivors the choice of either playing it fast or safe, not both at the same time.
This would also increase the pressure killers get out of incapacitations, since the survivor is worth more than just their own repair speed; they can't give a co-op bonus if they're not on a gen.
If that's not enough, we can cross that bridge when we get to it.
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@SpyUA said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109042#Comment_4109042
Hyper focus + stakeout exist and the game insanely quick when a team uses it and killers only counter is to tunnel, like if the killer doesn't tunnel, survivors are not going to magically stop gen rushing. A game literally can be completed in 5 minutes even if the killer has a full slowdown, I have a video of a gen being completed in 22 seconds by one survivor so all 4 survivors are able to complete a gen in under 30 seconds with gen rushing build.
best counter to tunnelling
It's shoulder the burden, shoulder the burden with ds and the killer will genuinely struggle to tunnel because of strong this is and exposed ain't doing anything.
Ds is still a very strong perk, if it was bad now then it wouldn't be used.
Basekit regression was boosted
Gens have an 8 kick limit and majority of slowdown perks have been nerfed overall and regression speed perks were nerfed as well like ruin or call of brine, a full slowdown build with pain res, pop goes the weasel, DMS and eruption is much weaker currently then it was years ago. Killers have nothing base kit (like a perk) unlike survivors and idk what are you talking about base kit regression cuz they have non.
Survivors were buffed a lot with pallet density update and also even stronger base kit bt.
Gens have an 8 kick limit and majority of slowdown perks have been nerfed overall and regression speed perks were nerfed as well like ruin or call of brine, a full slowdown build with pain res, pop goes the weasel, DMS and eruption is much weaker currently then it was years ago.
Years ago, regression was at such a critically overtuned state that it created a whole new killer-win shortcut in the infamous 'Chess merchant' strategy, where your goal wasn't even to kill the survivors, but just to keep them hostage for 60 minutes until the game decided to time them out.
Out of the build you list, one perk didn't get nerfed at all (Pain Res was 15% originally, now 20%), and Pop and DMS are relatively recent changes, which tunnelling/slugging is most decidedly not.
Only Eruption got a heavy nerf from its initial state, and that was when it could straight up eliminate up to 3 survivors for 30 seconds.
Not to mention, to quote:
Ds is still a very strong perk, if it was bad now then it wouldn't be used.
Apply that to Pain Res/Pop, because those two are still top of the board.
Killers have nothing base kit (like a perk) unlike survivors and idk what are you talking about base kit regression cuz they have non.
The only reason killers didn't get a 'perk' basekit is because what they got was more easily applicable than any perk in the game. It's Pop that became basekit, except without the hook requirement. Every time you kick a gen, it loses 5% progress now. That is what you got basekit.
Which stacks with all the other regression perks, which is why some of them got a drop of 5% in return.
Yes, regression is not in its CoBruption state, where losing as a killer was an actual challenge with how little progress survivors could make, nor is it at 'just head for the 3-gen and never chase a soul' state. That doesn't mean it's weak.
Not to mention that tunnelling was -still- running wild even during CoBruption.
Killers tunnel because it's an exceptionally effective way to win, even WITH basekit BT and when tunnelling through DS. The solution to this problem is never going to be 'just nerf survivors even more'.