Diminishing Returns Still Sucks
It is my moral obligation to remind the Devs that the current implementation of Diminishing Returns still sucks, and unnecessarily destroys perk variety.
To this day, even a simple hard cap for certain values would be the more intuitive and superior choice.
As I completely sympathize with the devs intent to avoid perks colliding with each other in the future, or causing stacked perks reaching problematic values, I hope they will revise their system and change it to a hard cap system (potentially with a gradual fall off) so that it can continue to keep perk build variety alive.
Stacking effects for many things, unlike movement speed, isn't problematic at all. Many stacked healing speed builds, etc, have always been perfectly fine, and have been a core part of build ideas and dbd culture since conception, so let's pray they bring it back ❤️
(Example of how to implement a simple hard cap with gradual fall off: Diminishing Returns & New Perk Keywords — BHVR )
Comments
I read diminishing returns doesn't work on four slowdowns. Like what? Isn't that what diminishing returns is for?
I really don't agree that this system is destroying perk variety at all. Most of the really good perk combos in this game aren't affected at all, and there are quite a few builds that are affected by DR without being made non-viable by it.
Basically the only things that are affected are the silly gimmick builds with four of the exact same modifier stacked on top of one another, and even then I'm pretty sure healing ones specifically still provide a crazy fast heal. I just don't see this effect on perk viability that others say it's had.
With the upcoming midchapter patch having partial focus on buffing things related to Diminishing Returns, I especially don't think it's a problem right now. Am I missing something, what would you say causes this system to destroy perk variety?
In all fairness, game slowndown on killer is the healthiest meta for the game, so idk if that's something they should even wanna change.
Chase destroying Metas, Anti-HealingMETAs, or Endless aura reading, especially on killers like nurses, are all worse for the overall health of the game
You just confirmed that it lessed perk variety. Just that it didn't shake up the META, lol.
So yes, we see less perk variety now, less stacked meme healing builds and similar stuff, and more just meta builds. Because that's all we have left atp.
Sorry, I definitely am not following.
Most builds unaffected, most affected builds still perfectly fine, a few edge case builds made more inefficient than they already were. How does that destroy variety? A handful of individual builds made arguably non-viable but that weren't incredible in the first place doesn't seem particularly destructive to me.
DBD has a huge breadth of potential variety when it comes to crafting builds and Diminishing Returns affected only a tiny portion of it.
Your perception of "a tiny portion of it", is highly influenced by simply seeing META ran a lot of times.
Dbd, and its slow destruction of perk variety has always been an attack on stacking perks, which is why you may not notice it as much;
1. Spine Chill vaulting speed being changes, was an attack on stacked vaulting perks
2. Exhaust status effect was an attack on stacked movement burst perks
3. Old unrelenting change was a result of stacked effects
4. The current diminishing returns killing movement speed, vaulting speed, gen speed, healing speed builds, unhook speeds etc.
All of this has exclusively lessened build variety. Not increased it, not kept it neutral. Exclusively diminished it. So again, just because it's not META, and these builds aren't ran nearly as often, because they were never too strong to begin with, doesn't mean that these changes haven't completely destroyed an entire class of builds.
It's more influenced by the fact that there are only so many effects where you even can run four of the same thing, since running two of the same thing usually still works with a couple outliers.
Now, I won't argue with the idea that technically this does reduce perk build viability because nothing was added, but again - there's a huge breadth of perk build variety out there which doesn't involve stacking effects at all, and a lot of stacking effect combos still work after this system.
It is, again, anything more than three of the same modifier in most scenarios where it actually has any meaningful effect for making things non-viable, and that is a really small portion of build crafting variety.
Plus, it is worth mentioning, because this was meant to be a change to make future balance changes easier and healthier, anything that comes out of the next midchapter counts as stuff added because of the DR system.
I also want to clarify, because I've only implied it so far: Actual healing speed builds are completely fine and largely unaffected. It's only stacking three or four healing speed buffs that's affected. Same goes for most other affected categories.
Considering alot of perks get held back because they could be stacked... yes, I think its a step to broadening build variety. While you wouldn't be putting multiple perks with the same effect in your build anymore, you can instead use perks that you wouldn't normally use alone because the individual perk values dont need to be throttled anymore. Theres no longer a threat of "forever freddy" so the individual pieces can be useful.
This. I am really hoping that the perk overhaul buffs perks and builds that got hit by diminishing returns such as Unbound going to 10-12% or Batteries going back to 7% ect.
And it doesn't affect the gen rushing meta, it does affect repairing speed perks but hyper focus + stakeout is basically unaffected and using a repairing speed perk + one two three four is insanely strong.
There will be a change to 45 perks soon, half are perks affected by diminishing returns and the other half is changes to general perks which are outdated.
But buffing and reworking all perks combo killed by diminishing returns will take ages.
Gen rush perks were nerfed and diminished. Prove went from 15 to 10, stake out halfs the hyperfocus value, toolboxes diminish the gen perks. Sadly my favourite combos like save the best for last + help wanted or machine learning + rapid were affected hard, batteries + rapid or nothing but misery + knockout… yes i did play these but there is little reason to run them atm.
Bhvr is probably buffing the perks affected by diminishing returns that need the buffs the most first (they are affected by it a lot), then the perks that are affected by it but still decent perks, bhvr does take ages to do anything honestly.
That's the exact problem, though. The builds you see the most of, did not get changed. The builds you see the least of, did get nerfed.
So it takes away from what we have too little of, while leaving intact what we have too much of. It just hurts perk variety.
It takes away extremely little, though. Even then, the builds it actually severely affects were already not very good, so presumably that's not why people were running them to begin with.
Almost everything is either fully unaffected or only mildly affected, that's kind of the point. It's a system for providing a better baseline, not for seriously affecting what people currently use. Perk variety barely changed either from actual viability or even from pickrate, at least from what I've seen for the latter, because that wasn't the goal to begin with.
But you're not really making an argument about the kind of impact it had, just about its severity.
It's okay that you don't particularly care that a 4-perk healing build is worse, but the point is that it IS worse, and thus less worth running, which takes it off the table, and thus reduces variety.
The point I'm making is that the severity is so low that functionally nothing changed.
Technically, sure, a handful of very niche things are weaker enough that some may choose to not run them anymore, but that's such a minuscule effect that I really do think it's worth disagreeing when someone says it's destroying perk variety. There's a pretty big difference between those two statements.
It'd be better if gen slowdown perks reduced the gen regression limit given how they all tend to work at different times. Sure you can still run four slowdown perks but you can only damage a gen twice.
I agree that it kills variety right now, but only because we have so many underpowered perks or nerfed perks, like batteries included, that can easily get rebuffed and be good on their own, they really need to buff so many perks