AlwaysInAGoodShape
AlwaysInAGoodShape
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@LordGlint said:
The matches in the video were extremely close games. I'd understand if it was a stomp, but... your saying the killer should be nerfed because they managed to challenge this team.
Nope, because the killer was nowhere near their level. You can see the killers doing some large misses that a good Judgement player wouldn't make. The Judgements they are facing are playing nowhere near as good as they are as a competitively organized team.
Keep in mind too that at a competitive level, even killers like Nurse will resort to hard tunnelling in most cases. The Judgements in this match were not even really trying.
Showing that without real skill at that level, and lacking the strategy and macro play at that level, they were still able to win against arguable one of the best Teams in the world, while making complete blunder shots and missing by an entire radius for 0 reason.
Not even a peak performance. -
@esarraf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4117965#Comment_4117965
But… full gen-slowdown means that they are going to be running stuff like turn back the clock or pain res. Which means it bypasses this perk entirely.
It won't. As stated, the generator can no longer receive regression nor blocks. So it's discounted from effects like Pain Res.
Hence the name;
It's Ready To Go 🤗 -
@esarraf said:
Tbh too weak to be a serious perk. Also the requirement of needing the killer to kick the gen is just the final nail in the coffin for this perk concept. It's at best a meme tier on par with blast mine.
Very meme tier indeed, and definitely iconic, and will likely be used for many clips. Though it might be stronger than you realize. If the killer is running full gen-slowdown and no aura, they might not be able to know which gens to defend or navigate too, wasting the killer's time, and therefore winning time for the survivors. The end game is so strong for the killer exactly because they know exactly where to go. When they aren't aware until they check, all that time is in the favour of survivors.
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@cammoking123 said:
Why would you waste a perk slot on Small Game. Just bring a map and the proper addons.
Because its a flashlight saving build, where the "stalker" also puts down boons to boost the escape power of the survivor looping. So the idea is that you stalk the chased survivor, and except for being close for the save, you also continue to cover them in no-scratchmark boons, to add to your flashlight build and be an absolute menace
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@AGM said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4117744#Comment_4117744
There is no such thing as a perfectly balanced game. Imo, I wouldn't expect Windows to have such sustained use over time if it was just used as training wheels for survivors. While I agree with you that old Windows helps newer players do better, I also believe that at this point many use it as an excuse to not get better at the game. I agree with the devs' decision to split seeing auras of pallets and windows between two perks.
I wouldn't expect Windows to have such sustained use over time if it was just used as training wheels for survivors.
You would exactly expect it to have so much use sustained over time.
Like I said, it's use is literally correlated to learning time of randomly generated maps, and thus directly correlated to how many maps there are in the game, which is ever increasing. This means that new learners are stuck longer and longer inside the learning phase and many casual players never escape that due to not playing enough. -
Whispers Feedback: (ignoring lower tiers)
- While within 24m of a survivor, you randomly hear whispers.
- While outside of 24m of a survivor, you gain 15% haste. Lingers for 2 seconds (BUFF)
- This perk deactivates after closing the hatch (NERF)
This is actually such a high potential perk for M1 killers with no map mobility, which we should definitely embrace. This perk alone can SAVE an entire class of killers, so an overall GOATED idea by the devs. Therefore, a non-shy buff of 15% haste is more than safe, compared to the map mobility of mobility killers nowadays.
As an equal debuff, we disable the perk in a 1v1 scenario so that it doesn't kill end-game Gate gameplay.
I really hope the Devs can get this perk right, because getting this perk right might be more important than they initially realize ❤️ -
My feedback for Windows of Opportunity is that changing this perk is a massive mistake.
Of course the Devs go off based on pick-rate and see a perk that is picked a lot. This datapoint can make it easily be mistaken for an overpowered perk. However, I want to make the case that Windows of Opportunity is UNIQUELY justified in being left as a highly picked perk that should not be touched, now, and in the future.
DBDs UNIQUE CHALLENGES
Due to DBD being an assymetrical game, it brings unique challenges with it that other games don't bring; As it has 2 separate factions (killer and survivor), it also introduces 2 uniquely separate learning curves to learning both sides.
My argument is that, due to the nature of DBD's design, this means that beginner survivors will severely struggle compared to beginner killers, where as, as time goes and and both become more experienced, survivors start gaining the upper hand:
(Graph showing power levels as y-axis based on play time as x-axis)
This difference in learning curve is rather easily explained by the random map generation and how killers and survivors interact with that differently in terms of difficulty. Where as its way easier for a beginner killer to simply follow a survivor in a map they don't know, than it is for a survivor to to navigate over a dozen of maps with random generation, where they have to navigate the map efficiently while running mostly looking backwards.
This single phenomenon creates the biggest learning gap between killer and survivors, leading to killer stomps at lower levels, and an overall less balanced game.
The period it takes to learn so many configurations of randomly generated maps among a sea of dozens can take a significant amount of hours played that a large sizeable portion of the players base doesn't have.
And what perk has helped this large portion of the playerbase overcome this unequal learning curve? It's Windows of Opportunity, easily accessible on a cheap survivor that has been saving the learner playerbase.
As windows of opportunity has helped newer players partially overcome the massive learning curve, it has not pushed survivor strength to any new level of over-the top strength: Everything that Windows of Opportunity gives, experienced players and SWFs already get for free; Comms and Map knowledge can completely replace Windows of Opportunity, hence why this perk starts to significantly lose value for teams and veterans.
This creates the following effect:
Windows helps push lower level survivor gameplay into more balanced games, in the area where survivors struggle most. Due to a large portion of the playerbase being permanent learners due to the brutal nature of learning randomized map configuration in such a sizeable amount of maps, therefore the pick-rate will always be required to be high. That is not a sign of overpoweredness. It's a sign of its success, as a learners perk that helps overcome one of DBD's oldest problems; the unequal learning curve caused by its asym nature.
My argument here is that, nerfing Windows of Opportunity will lead to a less well balanced game, harming survivors in the wrong places, based on data without the comprehension of why its picked exactly so often; This perk UNEQUELY doesn't reflect how "overpowered" it is, but is directly correlated with the brutal learning curve of the sizeable map pool of random generated maps. And with more maps being added, Windows of Opportunity is going to play an ever more increasingly important role, which makes the current nerf that more tragic. Should there ever have only been 1 map in DBD, then the pickrate of this perk would be severely lower, and this key point is very important to be understood by the devs. Because the Devs need to understand that WoO plays a Unique role in solving one of DBD's oldest issues, and is therefore UNIQUELY justified in being frequently picked, and should not be changed, now, or in the future.
To give an idea of what an overpowered perk would look like, you would have to look at a perk like Shoulder the Burden, Sprint Burst, etc. that DOES boost maximum survivor strength, leading to the following effect:
Such perks should be eligible for nerfs, as, as you can see, it increases the maximum gap between the killer's maximum power and survivor's maximum power at high levels of play.
My argument is that for proper balancing, we should try to ultimately align the red and blue line for a perfectly healthy game. And I hope I've helped conceptualize why nerfing Windows of Opportunity would undermine that exact goal and hurt overall game balance, and why making that decision based on high pickrate would simply be a mistake. -
@nikodemo said:
WoO is incredibly overused and, after 10 years of perks, provides too much benefit. This is a welcome change.
It in fact provides very little benefit. It doesn't push survivor strength to anything it cannot already have access to for free. Comms and general map knowledge already replace windows completely. Windows mainly has value to learning players who experience the unequal learning curve of DBD, and a change to this perk damages overall game balance.
Considering the brutal process of learning to run a dozen of randomly generated maps backwards will take a long time, and requires them to see many iterations of those same maps, and therefore, it will always be a frequently used perk; for the right reasons, due to that learning curve, and not because of its power-level.
Because when it comes to increasing max survivor power potential, it actually does very little, unlike perks like Shoulder, DH, sprint burst, which do push maximum power level for survivors. -
@CHIPEYCHOOS said:
agreed it is so stupid and they 100% won’t reverse it back. All the people saying it’s fine are the people that have all the time they want to play but most people have to go to work or school and can’t memorise maps like that and some people just want a normal experience. It’s very silly because the ptb is always for more skilled pc players who won’t use it anyway so Bhvr won’t revert it back to how it was. And also the idiots saying “ it’s called windows of opportunity not windows and palettes” how are you guys so stupid, it is not literal it is a saying. New and solo q survivors already have a difficult time and even with swf people still use windows as it is difficult to learn the maps. Less and less people are playing survivor leaving killer queue matchmakings taking ages and soon enough with the way bhvr keeps making survivor more unplayable there just won’t be anyone playing survivor
That PTB and pc player comment actually has a lot of foresight. That's well thought out. That will make it even worse getting a general image of how it affects the playerbase.
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My exact point is that Windows of Opportunity, despite its high pickrate, is uniquely justified in its position to not require ANY nerfs, at any point and in the future. The main reason is this:
Windows of Opportunity doesn't boost survivor strength to a brand new level. It mainly helps soloQ players and learners who are absolutely struggling due to the inherent difference in learning curve caused by the long learning path of learning to navigate dozens of randomly generated maps backwards in an optimized fashion, compared to killers mainly having to follow a survivor on their path.
Due to blindly looking at stats, they wrongly assume its high pickrate signifies strength; it doesn't. When a perk is signified by strength, it pushes survivor strength to a newfound max potential, like you'd see with Shoulder the Burden;
Perks like Shoulder the Burden push survivor strength to an all-time high and gives them access to powers they couldn't already had access to for free. Unlike windows, which can be completely replaced by comms and map knowledge that you gain overtime.
In both graphs, the closer the lines are together, the more well balanced the game is, which is the ultimate goal. The bigger the gap at any X point the higher the unbalance at that ELO, so therefore, the bigger the problem.
I hope therefore that these graphs help illustrate the concept that a perk can BOTH HAVE a HIGH PICKRATE (as seen by the large period where Windows of Opportunity is valuable for learners, and simultaneously NOT BE OVERPOWERED). Not only that, but the high pickrate of Windows of Opportunity is A NET BENEFIT for overall game balance and nerfing that perk WOULD harm the overall balance of the game.
What you do want for balance is to nerf the perks that push Survivor's MAX strength, like Deliverance, Shoulder, etc. if you care about game balance (which they are already doing);
(Although I'm not a big fan of nerfing all the things that people have come to fall in love with. I'd much rather have buffs on killers who have slowly simply fallen behind)
This is why it's so important to not blindly look at statistics and overall pick-rates, but have an in-depth understand of what role each perk plays in the game.
So to formulate my argument clearly; Windows of Opportunity, due to its inherent role in uniquely solving the learning curve in-balance between killer and survivor, without boosting maximum survivor strength, and therefore having a positive overall impact on game balance, is uniquely justified in having a high pick-rate without the need for any nerfs, now and in the future. -
@Crowman said:
People have been asking for a meta shake up for over a year. WoO is the most used survivor perk. Of course it was going to get nerfed and it certainly deserves to.
Yes, which shows that this decision comes from blindly looking at data without comprehension.
In this post, i've explicitly layed out why WoO is UNQUELY justified in being a high pickrate perk, without the need for any nerfs.
For most perks, a high pickrate signifies strength. However, for Windows of Opportunity it does not. It signifies the large flaw of the unequal learning curve due to random map generation, and how survivors and killers interact with that aspect unequally in difficulty. And this perk helps those lower elo survivors, that disproportionally struggle against low elo killer stomp create healthier matches.
Yet the perk itself doesn't offer real power to the strongest of survivors. That is why this perk is uniquely justified in being a high picked perk that should never be touched. -
@NeverSolus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4117230#Comment_4117230
I'm not going to disagree here - however, is your logic here that the game should be balanced around these players? I don't want to start arguing points you aren't trying to make as that would make me rather disingenuous and ranty.
Nope, my point is that Windows of Opportunity is already perfectly balanced. That the perk mostly helps those that need it the most; soloQ players without coms and Beginners, and helps solve one of DBD's fundemental issues; the unequal learning curve.
Due to that inherent learning curve, leading to low elo stomps by killers against survivors, this perk uniquely helps alleviate that fact.
Due to the time it takes to bridge that learning curve caused by survivors having to run backwards navigating a randomly generated map, it will take a long time to learn the maps, which is why, rightfully so, this perk will be the only perk that is justified in being played so much, without there being any need for nerfs. As its playrate is caused by it solving a fundamental issue with DBD's learning curve, and doesn't break overall game balance. It in fact fixes it. -
@NeverSolus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4117214#Comment_4117214
In fairness, WoO Still shows you the things you can commit to memory: windows. They can still learn from it. Pallets are something newer player should be learning may or may not spawn in given spaces, and they should be checking those spaces if near them.
Though admittedly I'd be more okay with the WoO nerf if it was combined with something like a small in-built, non-stacking Finesse. Just as FMA has a faster pallet pull.That is exactly not the lesson they need to be occupied with learning. You grossly underestimate what beginner survivors actually look like. You're unconsciously talking about intermediate survivors here.
https://youtu.be/mCPgHBg4jG4?si=Smrkzc_AmsclNKzx
This is what beginner survivors look like, and they are a large portion of this playerbase; -
@SpyUA said:
It's Windows of opportunity, not pallets of opportunity
Still it needs to be separate from five moves ahead.
It was already separate. There can be multiple pallet perks, just like there can be multiple healing perks, gen speed perks, etc. Five move ahead is less beginner friendly due to the cooldowns, but had other advantages, while WoO was more beginner friendly, so they were already meaningfully different.
Plus the fact that WoO is on Kate, which is significantly easier to unlock for newer players.
Windows of Opportunity is now literally just a dead perk, as if designed by people who don't play this game. -
I personally think the Non-zealous curve window at 0.3 is perfect, and at zealous it should maybe be 0.5-0.6 max. Otherwise it starts becoming unfair.
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@100PercentBPMain said:
do you have any comment on the Zealous window buffs?
I find this killer fascinating for the same reasons I do Henry. What happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object? A good judgment shouldn't miss, but a good survivors should dodge, too. Only difference is you can't really run away from Judgment much, so there's no physical exhaustion from running after people all game its purely mental exhaustion trying to get reads on people.
I think that's best to answer through the Henry theoretical power question;
For henry, the question of whether he has absolute power is fully determined by the Radius of his ability. If that radius is big enough; meaning that if it's placed exactly on top of a survivor, it should be impossible to dodge. This is what i call the "Perfect Radius".
However, at the perfect radius level, only a Tool Assisted Henry would be able to guarantee hits, because us humans deal with a minimal reaction time of 150-200 ms. So we would be unable to perfectly place it on top of the survivor, even if our placement was perfect. That's why there's also the "Mastery Radius", which is bigger and accounts for the minimal human reaction time. At that radius, the ability should be 100% hittable for humans who play at levels of perfection.
But inbetween the "Perfect Radius" and the "Mastery Radius" is where the human reaction radius sits. I think that's currently where Henry might be at, (though I haven't personally tested to measure it with any Tool Assisted program ofc)
So on that assumption, I would say that Henry isn't an instoppable force. And if he was, he should have his ability's radius nerfed in between the Mastery and Perfect radius, so that it keeps the human element.
But as for Judgement, I think she can be balaned WHILE being an unstoppable force. One of the reasons being is that she has no mobility (assuming no addons), so if we assume her Checkmate Scenarios to be true, it might still take her time to get close enough to survivors to be able to pull those Checkmate Scenarios off, and with survivors prerunning, she cannot pull those off from a distance in many scenarios, so just from that catch up time, perfect survivors and a perfect Judgement might already find themselves in a balanced match. -
@100PercentBPMain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113404#Comment_4113404
you running Improvised Detonators or is that unneeded?
I typically play add-onless. I'm a pathalogical hoarder
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@100PercentBPMain said:
I won't copy this myself but thanks for sharing. have you been running this for a while?
I haven and its been doing absolutely great!
If you have any sort of momentum, your games will often have ended with 5-4 gens left, its crazy. All because of DMs. Because the PR + DMS already wins u 50+ seconds back -
@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4112988#Comment_4112988
Sorry, I definitely am not following.
Most builds unaffected, most affected builds still perfectly fine, a few edge case builds made more inefficient than they already were. How does that destroy variety? A handful of individual builds made arguably non-viable but that weren't incredible in the first place doesn't seem particularly destructive to me.
DBD has a huge breadth of potential variety when it comes to crafting builds and Diminishing Returns affected only a tiny portion of it.
Your perception of "a tiny portion of it", is highly influenced by simply seeing META ran a lot of times.
Dbd, and its slow destruction of perk variety has always been an attack on stacking perks, which is why you may not notice it as much;
1. Spine Chill vaulting speed being changes, was an attack on stacked vaulting perks
2. Exhaust status effect was an attack on stacked movement burst perks
3. Old unrelenting change was a result of stacked effects
4. The current diminishing returns killing movement speed, vaulting speed, gen speed, healing speed builds, unhook speeds etc.
All of this has exclusively lessened build variety. Not increased it, not kept it neutral. Exclusively diminished it. So again, just because it's not META, and these builds aren't ran nearly as often, because they were never too strong to begin with, doesn't mean that these changes haven't completely destroyed an entire class of builds. -
@jesterkind said:
I really don't agree that this system is destroying perk variety at all. Most of the really good perk combos in this game aren't affected at all, and there are quite a few builds that are affected by DR without being made non-viable by it.
Basically the only things that are affected are the silly gimmick builds with four of the exact same modifier stacked on top of one another, and even then I'm pretty sure healing ones specifically still provide a crazy fast heal. I just don't see this effect on perk viability that others say it's had.
With the upcoming midchapter patch having partial focus on buffing things related to Diminishing Returns, I especially don't think it's a problem right now. Am I missing something, what would you say causes this system to destroy perk variety?
You just confirmed that it lessed perk variety. Just that it didn't shake up the META, lol.
So yes, we see less perk variety now, less stacked meme healing builds and similar stuff, and more just meta builds. Because that's all we have left atp. -
@cammoking123 said:
I read diminishing returns doesn't work on four slowdowns. Like what? Isn't that what diminishing returns is for?
'
In all fairness, game slowndown on killer is the healthiest meta for the game, so idk if that's something they should even wanna change.
Chase destroying Metas, Anti-HealingMETAs, or Endless aura reading, especially on killers like nurses, are all worse for the overall health of the game -
@Artimenius1307 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4103409#Comment_4103409
Okay now that's just going too far. A change like that absolutely must come with something in return, if you wanna nerf how killers can play so severely, there must be an alternative in exchange, and just as good as the nerfed one.
Correct, as the post clarifies. There are multiple things the killer deserves. Some of which i have discussed in older posts.
One of which is a built in killer instinct on the survivor spawn locations. Currently, killers can, due to random luck, start of an entire match at a half-a-gen to a full gen disadvantage purely because of the luck of spawnpoints that create a massive disparity in the balance of matches without even involving any type of interactive gameplay between killers and survivors.
And that is just to name an example -
@angrychuck said:
I like the idea, as on paper this wouldn't affect someone who spreads hooks but also removes pressure from hooking after a tunnel. It makes sense, but at the current time something like this can't be implemented without many killers moving onto slugging after a tunnel as that would be the only way to gain pressure with a down. I think that something like this could be implemented but it would have to be after slugging is addressed in a way that causes that strategy to be less potent.
I think the same strategy for slugging would suffice as well. Allow survivors to recover themselves when on the ground after, say 70 seconds, after 1 person dies.
That would mean that the entire tunnelling and slugging fix would require no more complexity than:
- After 1 survivor dies, survivors gain the ability to unhook themselves during the first hook stage
- Survivors gain the ability to self recover on the ground after 70 seconds after the first survivor dies, and after 40 seconds after the second survivor dies.
This simple ruleset would solve both tunnelling and slugging for a big part as well as the infamous 2 survivor 1 slugged 4k strategy and keep the game playable even after 1 survivor dies, even at that stage -
@Angy_Quentin said:
Honestly now that you say it, "Captain Clark" with a deformed backrooms dog may be a better idea fitting the horror theme.
Well that's the beautiful thing. You can have both!
(Though captain clark would be way less popular and people would enjoy playing him way less overall to someone like Jack Sprarrow) -
@Mooks said:
how is Mina the set example for this when she is relativley new and was specifically created to be an alt for Trickster (both Lore-wise and irl) when there is Legendary killer skins like Birkin, Naughty Bear, the CryptTV Killers, Minotaur, …?
Because Mina is by far the biggest killer skin that transforms who the killer is, by presentation, hype, and everything surrounding it. Not merely a reskin but a phenomenon
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@Lavoonus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4100363#Comment_4100363
All I'm saying is that if you want a skin to race swap one of the few visibly black killers we have in this game, it should at least be related to some kind of horror property. But instead you want the Disney franchise with the guy who played Tonto.
'Akward' indeed.
if you want a skin to race swap one of the few visibly black killers
You're still projecting your race obsessed life here.
No one is out "trying to race swap races" of people. People are however trying to get their favourite and iconic characters from popular movies into this game. Especially the most iconic ones from all time popular franchises.
But hey, if you're just here to reveal you're a closet racist. Go at it buddy. We all know what you are by now -
@Lavoonus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4100358#Comment_4100358
I mean if we're gonna talk about race obsessed people, I think we should look at Johnny Depp with all the weird things he's said about black people.
I'm specifically talking about you. You are the only race obsessed person on this thread here.
Akward. -
@GentlemanFridge said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4100357#Comment_4100357
Is Jack Sparrow a murderer, though? It just doesn’t fit tonally.
Davy Jones himself would be a more obvious choice, imo, though even that’s a stretch. Plus, the whole IP is pretty far removed from the more realistic depiction of pirates we have in HM.
Just cause he’s a pirate, doesn’t mean this’ll work.
Jack Sparrow killed multiple people in the movie. He's a PIRATE after all (The bad guys), similarly to Ghoul/Kaneki he's also a protagonist.
I think it would be one of the funniest skins in the game. Especially if he'd have Jack Sparrow's walk in chases ❤️ -
@Lavoonus said:
Houndmaster finally getting a skin and its one to turn her into a white guy. Would be pretty fitting with how they've treated her since release.
Oof, race obsessed people, keeping racism alive
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@GentlemanFridge said:
Does he have a dog? Or something akin to it?
I don’t really think this is comparable to Mina.
I don’t really think this is comparable to Mina.
Of course it's comparable to Mina. Both are a skin that turn a killer into a completely different character.Does he have a dog? Or something akin to it?
The prison dog with the keys would do 😊
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@Abyast1 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4098313#Comment_4098313
The rules of these tournaments are typically match result vs match result under the same circumstances, not necessarily judged by how many kills you got. The kills metric is more what casual DBD uses. But the point stands. You are more likely to Win/Draw than you are likely to lose, if you measure by normal win standards. That is not however the perception of the community. The perception is that you almost always lose, which is incorrect.
Agreed, you don't always lose, and if thats how you perceive this communitys perception of the killer role. Yes, that is wrong. However, As i said, this is at the highest level, and your own metrics show your less likely to win then you are to lose, a draw is a net neutral event, you didnt beat the survivors, the survivors didn't beat you, so to try and lump them in on one side SEEMS (although probably isn't your intention) disingenuous.
Not really. The killer always has all factors going for them. The only thing they need to bring is their skill level. Obviously, if the other team has a higher skill level, you are (typically) meant to lose.
As a killer, you simply select your killer, the best perks, and your strongest add-ons, which killers often run, and you're in as good as a position as you get. The match results shown are however of a way less common scenario. A full team of 4 BNP's occurs way less frequently as a killer simply running meta. So even in load-out alone, killers are more likely to run the strongest loadouts compared to a full survivor team."The killer has all factors going for them. The only thing they need to bring is their skill level"- this is just not true though. You yourself acknowledged that weaker killers struggle ect. And the same could be said to survivors. The best survivor will win more often than not against average killers, because thats who they'll face. Because all the best survivor needs to do is bring a meta build, a maxed out toolbox, and rush those gens, taking chase where possible, and even bad survivors will touch gens when not pressured. The best survivor can have high escape rates in soloqueue because theyre good enough to carry a team. Otz's soloqueue escape rate probably 70%.
"a team of 4 BNP's occurs way less frequently as a kilelr simply running meta."- But a team bringing 4bnps will be infinitely stronger than a trapper bringing hex build or full meta ect ect. Entirely depends on the killer.
I do not necessarily agree that being good at killer takes more than survivor. What I do agree with is that, due to survivors only having to learn survivor once, and a killer typically diving into multiple killers, that they have a lot to learn if they are variety players. However, the role of survivor is probably the most complex, as a standalone by itself. But yes, if a killer switches between killers, there is more for them to learn in total, and it would definitely be harder to optimize ALL killers, versus only optimizing the survivor role.
Your graph shows the skill floor of killer being 2 whilst the skill floor of survivor being 0. Your graph. The level of skill needed to be mediocre at killer is way less than the skill needed to be mediocre at survivor, due to how survivors can hold w at loops and drop pallets, whilst killers decision making and mind games take recognising survivor patterns, which takes a lot more. Learning 5 killers vs learning to play vs 5 killers, playing against them is easier.
I'm not sure if I understand you here. What I'm saying here is not a suggestion. This is already the reality, and it doesn't have the effects you're describing it would. What it does however, is allow for the BEST killer players to be able to have a dominating experience with the complete killer roster, in which their winrate is 90-98%+
Can you name a single killer main with a killrate of above 80%?????????? I watch some of the good killer mains and they average around 65% killrate. And it does have the effect im describing, because the best survivors already only play in their teams. Most comp squads stay within their comp squads and play tourneys/practice matches quite a lot, the best survivors already shift towards swf. And the latest stats say only 48% of survivors are soloqueue, which would mean the majority even outside of comps are shifting to swf. By definition.
I do not look at the stats faultily. I correctly acknowledge that you have bigger chance of not losing a match, when playing under the most extreme conditions that this game have to offer. Conditions so extreme that people will rarely if ever experience when playing as a killer in a casual max mmr queue.
Sometimes you might run into an SWF. Sometimes you might play against a full BNP team. Sometimes you might bump into a comp team that is win-streaking with unique perks. But seldom will you ever get a full competitive world class team on comms with absolute meta perks and 4 BNPs. And should you get them, than you, with your own available skill, should have a higher chance of getting a different match result than a loss on an A-S tier killer. Something that the community definitely has a hard time acknowledging."I do not look at the stats faultily, I correctly acknowledge that you have a bigger chance of not losing the match"- to act like a draw is a positive for killer is insane. To say that a draw is a net positive for killer means its a negative for survivor, which is just false. It is a net neutral event. So if we look at the win vs loss rate its loss heavy, which you have refused to acknowledge repeatedly throughout both your original comment and the later address to my comment, and have used it as a basis to fuel the rest of your post. Your not lying, your just misrepresenting the stats to fit a narrative you want to push.
"Sometimes you might run into an SWF. Sometimes you might play against a full BNP team. Sometimes you might bump into a comp team that is win-streaking with unique perks. But seldom will you ever get a full competitive world class team on comms with absolute meta perks and 4 BNPs. "- Firstly, SWF is 52% of the playerbase as per the most recent stats. Secondly, I could shift this entirely on its head. Sometimes you might face an S tier killer. Sometimes you might bump into an S tier killer with an insane build thats meta breaking. But seldom do you go against a full competitive world class killer with 4000+ hours on their killer with absolutely meta perks and addons. And should you get them, your within the mmr bracket where you should have a higher chance of a 4 escape than a loss if your doing all of this. The community also has a hard time acknowledging this.
TLDR: it seems your response is removing all agency from the survivors, misrepresenting the stats and then whilst acknowledging the average survivors aren't comp squads (in which you don't blame them for losing) you decide that a killer not being a top tier 1% killer it is on them and just a skill issue. At this point I don't know if your just trolling, or this is the biggest rose-tinted speech I've seen in a while.
so to try and lump them in on one side SEEMS (although probably isn't your intention) disingenuous.
What I'm trying to make clear here is that it's not ingenuine. And yes, I pair them together, for the reason that right now, the common belief is that if you'd play "against strong survivors" (I.E. the same setup as in the tournament), you would just lose. The reason why I pair them together is to quite simply show; no, that is in fact not the case. And IN FACT, the majority of your games, in the most extreme conditions in DBD, would not end in the killer losing. With would end in either a win or a draw. But that is not the current perception.
So yes, it is not my point to convince you that you are more likely to win than to lose. But it is my intention to convince you that should you be matched against the best of the best, under the most extreme conditions, you are more likely to either win/draw than to lose. And considering the extremity and rarity of such a scenario, I think people would be very happy with a draw.And the same could be said to survivors. The best survivor will win more often than not against average killers, because thats who they'll face. Because all the best survivor needs to do is bring a meta build, a maxed out toolbox, and rush those gens, taking chase where possible, and even bad survivors will touch gens when not pressured.
The same cannot be said for survivor. What I'm talking about here is how accessible it is to reach the maximum strength of a particular side (where the players of course have to bring in the skill)
Merely selecting the right build, character and add-ons that you can easily do doesn't put a survivor at the maximum strength of their team. They can have completely random teammates that are very bad. They can in many cases not control the builds of the people they play with. They in many cases do not have access to effectively the 3rd party applications that they would need to require them to perform at their best, and on top of that, most of their hours will most likely not be spent with the same teammates in which they could've practiced together and gotten accustomed to each other's strategy and playstyle.
The amount of team play and effort survivors need to be setup for is more akin to games like League of Legends at their peak performance than it is to the killer side, which simply only have to bring themselves. Therefore, the chance and possibilities of a survivor team to perform at their maximum strength is insanely more rare than the readily available accessibility of a killer to perform at their max strengthBut a team bringing 4bnps will be infinitely stronger than a trapper bringing hex build or full meta ect ect. Entirely depends on the killer.
Definitely not infinitely. As per the all goes rule, killers also have all add-ons available, and they are not forced to pick weaker killers. And with those strong add-ons, perks and killers available, they hold up pretty well, as the stats have shown. And that is DESPITE that many of the killers are NOT OPTIMIZED, as even in comp play, comp player's general experience massively favours expertise in survivors and not a particular singular killer.Can you name a single killer main with a killrate of above 80%?
Variety killer mains like King Wolfie on youtube has many killrates on even more mediocre killers that are 90%+ to name an example.It is a net neutral event. So if we look at the win vs loss rate its loss heavy, which you have refused to acknowledge repeatedly
Which I have not failed to acknowledge repeatedly. I acknowledge that you are more likely to lose than a different individual match result. I also acknowledge that you are going to lose less than 50% of your matches under these extreme conditions, and that you are more likely to end in a draw or in a win. I also acknowledge that these stats are from extreme matches that don't generally mirror real queue scenarios. And that the top tier comp players in them are heavily optimized in the survivor role, and less so in the killer roles they play, with superior hours in survivors and inferior hours in the particular killers they are playing during these matches.Your graph shows the skill floor of killer being 2 whilst the skill floor of survivor being 0
The graph is merely to illustrate the rate at which each side learns to utilize its power. They simply reflect the real change in winrates as MMR improves. With low mmr killers dominating low mrr survivors and survivors becoming stronger as mmr improves. It merely illustrates the unique balancing problem that it introduces. The numbers on the graph have no meaning in particular.due to how survivors can hold w at loops and drop pallets, whilst killers decision making and mind games take recognising survivor patterns
Your bias is showing here. You are no longer talking about beginner survivors nor beginner killers. Because beginner players have severe trouble even navigating to loops consistently. Which is a large portion of the player base. The type of gameplay you're subscribing is already a very accustomed-to-the-game playerbase.Learning 5 killers vs learning to play vs 5 killers, playing against them is easier.
I agree, learning to fully optimize gameplay of a particular killer (and some more than others) is extraordinarily hard, and learning to play against it is significantly easier. But it doesn't take away from my point. We are talking about maximum capacity here. Therefore, for the game to be truly balanced, we must assume complete mastery of 1 role vs the complete mastery of another.
To know if that's the case, you must imagine DBD as a game with only 1 killer. Therefore, both roles have an equal amount of experience in their own role, as well as mastery. The question here then is, when both roles are fully optimized, which one is stronger?
It can therefore entirely be the case that, due to DBD's nature, and variety killers choosing variety, that they therefore start to lose more EVEN IF their killer is theoretically stronger than the survivor on a 50% win vs 50% lose rate. We could have a game where killers lose more than survivors WHILE killers being the more power role. But that's why I said. When we talk about balance in the current environment of DBD, we are always talking about fully optimized survivors, and more often than not, versing not fully optimized killers. Now some killers have way more space for optimization, like Nurse, Singularity, Trickster, Blight, where as killers like trapper have less space for optimization, however, if we truly had a 1 killer game, we would most likely even see trappers commonly knowing the dirties trap spots, and tricks, that we wouldn't even see today due to there not being such an incentive to optimize the killer as hard, as we do for survivors (for the sole reason that survivors cannot choose another type of survivor to otherwise optimize) -
@Abyast1 said:
21 Losses (0-1k)
13 Wins (3-4k)
15 Draws (2k)So what does that mean for killers? That means that if you are playing against quite literally the Best Teams in the entire world, who are all running 4 BNP's, Shoulder the burdens, etc and other abusing builds, YOU, as any higher level killer, ARE MORE LIKELY TO DRAW OR WIN against the best teams in the entire world, than you are to lose, should you be playing at the best level as well.
I could also refraim that as "You are more likely to lose or draw than you are to win". Or even better, since there was 21 losses (-1) 13 wins (+1) and 15 draws (0) you ended up with a score of -8. Now I don't know the rules surrounding this tournament ect, I dont follow tournaments that well, but If it is true that they were close to double the amount of losses to wins, does that not show the power difference AT THE HIGHEST LEVEL.
Yet even if you play under these extraordinarily rare circumstances, you are more likely to draw or win than you are to lose. And that is definitely not how this community has been selling it.
See previous reframing, I understand you want to minimize these stats, but if your going to bring fourth stats at least apply them neutrally.
Now in the real world, the chance that you are playing against a fully premade team is already way lower. The chance of them all running BNP is already way lower. The chance of them using fully sweaty voice comms with trained call-out locations for every part of the map is already way lower.
And the chance of them being a high tier killer with a sweaty build and 4000+ hours in the game are infinitely less. I've seen people shitpost about one of my friends who had less than 500 hours in the game, If your going to acknowledge in your post that killers aren't facing the best survivors (which i agree heavily) you also have to acknowledge the average killer is nowhere near as good as them.
So what does that mean? Well, here is the hard truth; You're not as good as killer at you think. And I don't even mean that in the terms of getting a 1k, 2k, or any particular match result. Your personal results are inferior to other players on those same killers.
I'll agree that a lot of killers believe they are insane and still getting duped by your average soloqueue survivors, but ill also say survivors often believe they are in the top 1% going against the best nurses/blights/jason's and have no way to play against them. This inflation occurs on both sides. And yeah, people inflate their skill level to seem like they're an authority. See how I've gone through this entire argument without invoking my hours in the game ect, people as a whole on this forum seem to be unable to do this.
I will also say, however, that being good as killer takes a lot more than being good as survivor, which you acknowledged the skill floors of both roles are hugely different. On top of this unless you have someone who can coach you its difficult to teach newer killers decision making (a key part of being a good killer). A lot of survivor loops/maps/ techs can be taught and doesn't leave a lot of difference, making their skill floor a bit lower. so overall yes I agree with this point, just some revisions.
Being in the top 18% is kind of the equivalent to being somewhere in Emerald in League of Legends.
Now, what does this accomplish? Well, it quite accomplishes the following: This MMR is forgiving enough, so that weaker killers, like Trapper, can go on massive Winstreaks of 50+ 3-4ks, even perkless and add-on-less, if they are being played at their highest levels. That means that, even if they cannot buff a certain killer without destroying their balance distribution through all MMR's due to how their power access as affected by their learning curve, you, as a top MMR bracket player, will still be able to have a completely DOMINATING experience as killer in NEARLY all of your matches if you are playing the killer right. And if that is not your experience, it's sadly not the game that is the issue;
This is where you truly lose me. This would make soloqueue unbearable for the better survivors (mostly streamers) because , as you mentioned league, the difference between top 18% and top 1-4% of survivors is huge. Making the soloqueue divide which is already insane at high mmr even worse. Which will alternatively lead to the other issue you've skirted over when talking about balancing. The dreaded SWF.
Now, I'm not gonna even argue that the average swf is insane comms ect. I play in a casual 3-4 man swf constantly, but even playing casually it gives a decent advantage. Being able to comm saves/ whos in chase/ who should take chase makes a massive difference. And being able to help my more employed friends on when to focus totems/gens/saves ect makes a huge difference in their fun in the game. And thats a casual swf. I cannot imagine 4 insane survivors all playing together to comm every pallet drop ect. And this will push top end survivors to swf with people they enjoyed playing with.
Now, considering that you can select a killer, just like any character in any competitive game, you can also select a weaker character. But you have nothing but yourself to blame for selecting a weaker character deliberately, as nobody is forcing you to either play with weaker killers, weaker perks, as neither are survivors being forced. However, for those killers who wishes lower tier killers to be buffed:
I agree and disagree with this statement. Yes, choosing a weaker killer shouldn't then be a justification to complain about the survivors you were facing. They owe you nothing, and vice versa. However, survivors also don't enjoy playing against the same killer game in and out, which is what your advocating for here. I think most killers should be buffed/nerfed/removed (nurse) to dracula/vecna level and see where we go from there with nerfs/buffs to balance playstate. Yes my examples are decently strong killers, but also most would prefer some variety and then balance around killers being that strong.
It is important to recognize that many killers cannot easily be buffed, specifically due to how their power level vs learning curve scales with each other. Should killers have to be strong, they need to be designed in such a way that makes that power not easily available, so that through MMRs they can exist as a balanced and healthy killers.
Another grey statement. I would prefer a multitude of killers (difficult or not) being strong. However, that does not mean their skill floor needs to be massively raised, I'd be fine with their skill ceiling being raised. Trapper should have some techs that allow him to pull some wacky stuff mid loop to make him viable. Myers moonwalk dash stab would be incredible and a pain in the ass to code but stuff like this would be my suggestion for buffs. basekit buffs for the weakest of killers, but more techs/interactions for C+ killers. Then nerf the S tiers.
Edit: you went on to say that later in the statement, seems we agree here somewhat.
Therefore, in a truly balanced game, it shouldn't be too weird that people with 300 hours (the singularity example) are losing against optimized players with 10.000 of hours at their specific role. DBD has a serious killer main optimization issue, even at the competitive level, and we haven't seen optimized Killer Gameplay nearly as much as Optimized survivor gameplay. With few people trying, Like One Pump Willie. But nowhere near at the level had DBD been a game with exclusively 1 killer, to match the hours of the survivors.
I agree, but a lot of skills can be passed on to different killers. If I'm first timing singularity (a weird example you chose) but mained ghoul/ xeno before there are skills that can be passed on. I think singularity is the worst example for this, but like nemisis/xenomorph, myers/ghostface ect ect, skills aren't killer specific for the most part. And yes, whilst they might struggle they shouldn't be completely outclassed if they have 10k hours in killer, because their general knowledge/decision making and mindgames will be the same. They should still stand a chance, they are more likely to lose sure, but they shouldnt be completely outclassed. Even in this extreme example.
The popular belief that killer is just underpowered for a large part comes from peoples delusion of not recognizing they are simply not as good as killer as they imagined themselves to be.
Sadly for these people, being outcompeted in match results by other killers playing the same killer with even weaker perks/add-ons will not sway them into believing they themselves are in fact the problem. And these people will go on and regurgitate the same old faulty beliefs.I agree most killers aren't as good as they think they are. I disagree that killer is op the better you get at the game. I very much believe the stats are inflated due to soloqueue and bad mmr, rather than killer being this op echelon that some believe it is. But yes, also, the killer can always improve. Lets not take away agency from the player, when you lose in DBD 90% of the time there is things you could do better (unless they hacked), and should strive to better yourself. This is even true for soloqueue.
If you are playing an A-S tier killer versing the most ferocious teams in the world who are going all out, and you are losing more than you are winning+drawing; YOU ARE THE PROBLEM
If you are playing killer at top MMR and you aren't nearly exclusively winning all your matches; YOU ARE THE PROBLEM
If you are an addonless perkless trapper at top MMR and you aren't nearly exclusively winning all your matches; YOUR ARE THE PROBLEM
If you are playing addonless perkless trapper against a full competitive team with abusable builds; well, in that case, you will lose that match. I guess that happens when you deliberately select weaker characters. But next to winning the next 20+!- Disagree as said before you've either intentionally looking at those stats faultily, or are framing them to make your argument for you.
- Also disagree with this. Top tier killers (im going to talk about otz/hens/jrm/scott jund/ alf) can lose quite often against good survivors, especially when not playing A+ tier killers. It's quite often in the survivors ball court how often they win/lose imo, but killers can certainly better themselves, as i doubt anyone reading this is at their skill level, and im certainly not anywhere close.
- Yes and no, again players want to be able to play all killers to have fun, and so them choosing a weaker killer whilst suboptimal should not be used as a reason why its their fault they lost, people are allowed to play whatever killer/build they want and still stand a chance. If the winrate of perkless trapper is sub 15% id say trapper probably has an issue if hes that perk dependant.
- Lmao, and no perkless trapper shouldnt win but I know thats you being hyperbolic for the people in the back who can't read social queues.
With all of these subjects covered, I hope that you have an understanding now, at not only the unique balancing challenges DBD faces, but also, how quite well they were addressed by beHaviour, contrary to popular belief, to provide a good match experience for both sides, even at the highest MMR level.
I hope this post helped you gain more insight into DBD balancing and that you hopefully learned something about the real balance of DBD, which as it stands, is actually pretty neat!
So get your decently wide a-s tier killer roster and enjoy drawing and winning against the top tier teams in the world! And if that's not you? Time to start improving as a player ❤️I agree BHVR are better at balance then people give them credit. My major issues are because OP killer stuff is infinitely more important to nerf than OP survivor stuff (because the killer role has to remove people from the game, so OP stuff from them takes priority, which makes sense but rubs me the wrong way).
And also, the S-tier killer roster is 3/4 killers out of 40ish, and yeah, as said you've taken that stat the worst way possible, maybe should reframe the way you look at it for a second.
…does that not show the power difference AT THE HIGHEST LEVEL.
The rules of these tournaments are typically match result vs match result under the same circumstances, not necessarily judged by how many kills you got. The kills metric is more what casual DBD uses. But the point stands. You are more likely to Win/Draw than you are likely to lose, if you measure by normal win standards. That is not however the perception of the community. The perception is that you almost always lose, which is incorrect.And the chance of them being a high tier killer with a sweaty build and 4000+ hours in the game are infinitely less
Not really. The killer always has all factors going for them. The only thing they need to bring is their skill level. Obviously, if the other team has a higher skill level, you are (typically) meant to lose.
As a killer, you simply select your killer, the best perks, and your strongest add-ons, which killers often run, and you're in as good as a position as you get. The match results shown are however of a way less common scenario. A full team of 4 BNP's occurs way less frequently as a killer simply running meta. So even in load-out alone, killers are more likely to run the strongest loadouts compared to a full survivor team.I will also say, however, that being good as killer takes a lot more than being good as survivor, which you acknowledged the skill floors of both roles are hugely different.
I do not necessarily agree that being good at killer takes more than survivor. What I do agree with is that, due to survivors only having to learn survivor once, and a killer typically diving into multiple killers, that they have a lot to learn if they are variety players. However, the role of survivor is probably the most complex, as a standalone by itself. But yes, if a killer switches between killers, there is more for them to learn in total, and it would definitely be harder to optimize ALL killers, versus only optimizing the survivor role.This is where you truly lose me. This would make soloqueue unbearable for the better survivors (mostly streamers) because
I'm not sure if I understand you here. What I'm saying here is not a suggestion. This is already the reality, and it doesn't have the effects you're describing it would. What it does however, is allow for the BEST killer players to be able to have a dominating experience with the complete killer roster, in which their winrate is 90-98%+Disagree as said before you've either intentionally looking at those stats faultily, or are framing them to make your argument for you.
I do not look at the stats faultily. I correctly acknowledge that you have bigger chance of not losing a match, when playing under the most extreme conditions that this game have to offer. Conditions so extreme that people will rarely if ever experience when playing as a killer in a casual max mmr queue.
Sometimes you might run into an SWF. Sometimes you might play against a full BNP team. Sometimes you might bump into a comp team that is win-streaking with unique perks. But seldom will you ever get a full competitive world class team on comms with absolute meta perks and 4 BNPs. And should you get them, than you, with your own available skill, should have a higher chance of getting a different match result than a loss on an A-S tier killer. Something that the community definitely has a hard time acknowledging. -
@KatsuhxP said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/468825/dbd-devs-are-playing-4d-chess
But the friday the 13th game had this mechanic first as far as I know, so if even the halloween game uses it randomly and bhvr just stays true to the license or am I wrong? Although that doesn't matter because I believe the friday the 13th game and halloween game are from the same developers xD
The other Devs are always first indeed. With Hide or Die the gap was 2 years (2018 and 2020), and now we have Jason before the release of halloween
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@Nazzzak said:
You're looking into this way too deeply
Of course. The beHaviour Devs don't have any special plans for their player base and are not planning on sacrificing them in any way whatsoever.
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@HexSlugged said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4087806#Comment_4087806
you should be capable of looking at the screen and hitting space bar and opening your mouth and speaking words at the same time.
You are making the assumption that everyone you chat with on discord automatically is also playing the game with you in voice chat. That's not the case
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@MilkToast said:
Take your pills their just making animations better
That perk doesn't even exist
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@HexSlugged said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4087234#Comment_4087234
so you want to make it even worse. got it.
I want people to have the option to choose whether they just want to let their brain decay while sitting on a gen, or whether they want to use all that, essentially idle time, to do something actually fun, like chatting with your friends. Consider it's such a big portion of a DBD match. This perk at least gives people the option, and introduces an interesting dynamic around risk and reward regarding stealth killers, as it may not be beneficial to aim for stacks if there's a likely hood of a stealth killer approaching
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@Chomperka said:
lmao
just make game play for yourself at this pointMy argument is that the gameplay people are playing this game for isn't the generator gameplay. Nobody is arguing for automated chases here
Alternatively we can use your argument in the same way, and make it so that while sitting at a generator, you need to continuously press a key like the previous struggle phase.
Then I would argue that it would be better if the bar just progressed itself while sitting on a gen.
And then you would be the one here arguing that the game shouldn't be playing itself 🤣 -
@HexSlugged said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4087056#Comment_4087056
staring at the screen paying attention to the game. therefor playing the game and assisting my team.
I dont need or want the game to play itself for me because im too lazy too pay attention to the game and thus bringing down other peoples experience that is stuck with a team mate who cant be bothered to spend 5% of your attention capacity on hitting spacebar
and assisting my team.
Still a very romanticized version of literally just sitting at a gen and staring forward while the mind slowly decays from inactivity. -
@NeverSolus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/468284/very-highly-anticipated-perk-idea
You can't be real. This can't be real. But on the off chance you are serious, I'll regard it as serious. If you're a troll, golf claps.
Three things :
1) This perk rewards not playing, as other people have indicated. As your counter-arguments indicate that's the point of some perks, but not when -
2) This perk also rewards for failure. So not paying attention and failing a mechanic rewards with the bamboozles for the sake of SWF's. That's what you're recommending here, a SWF perk that will be next to useless for SoloQ when BHVR is trying to fix SoloQ experiences. This would just be another perk in the pile that Killers would point to as reasoning when they slug. I wouldn't blame them either - as you'd be doing the same thing while slugged that you'd be doing if working a gen, that is to say interacting with the game as little as possible.
3) "The token system ensures that the player that wants to use the ability needs to have spent at least a decent time doing objectives and cannot have just been goofing around." No. No it does not. The entire point of the perk is that they are goofing around to activate the tokens. The tokens do not ensure it anymore than the existence of playing hooky ensures a high grade.
But I can see I will not sway you on this topic already, so I will focus instead of something I may be able to offer you for future growth opportunities -
"Very HIGHLY Anticipated Perk Idea"
You don't need 'very' and 'highly', they both emphasize the same target word. In addition to that, for something to be 'highly anticipated' means large swathes of people are looking forward to its release. Your OC perk (plzdonotsteal) being posted to the forums for discussion is great, but it's not 'Highly Anticipated' anymore than someone catching themselves when they trip is 'highly anticipated.'
Structure aside the word choice is self-defeating. You're presenting an idea you created presumably as of recent, which doubly means it cannot be 'very highly anticipated' in any context, because if it were you would not be presenting or sharing an idea, you'd be talking about the thing everyone is already talking about.
EDIT: Also stop capitalizing words for emphasis when the emphasis isn't necessary.This perk doesn't reward you for not playing. That is a blatant falsehood. If you don't play, you get 0 reward. You don't get ahead of anyone who is basically not actively failing their skillchecks like a complete beginner. Instead, it's like Jonah's perk, but you can select it yourself, and it forces you to take risks. Especially if there's a stealth killer.
perk that will be next to useless for SoloQ
Blatant falsehood. It will be very useful for SoloQ as well. You don't need a well coordinated SWF just to make your way to someone on deathhook and in chase. All you have to be is willing to take over their deathhook. But if your built is build around that, and if you believe you are the better player in the team, this perk will help you well to prevent losing games where the killer can simply tunnel out the "weak link", and forces the killer to interact with the skill of multiple players before it's turned into an unwinnable 3 survivor situation.he tokens do not ensure it anymore than the existence of playing hooky ensures a high grade.
Once again false. The only way to gain tokens is by progressing the main objective & healing. You cannot get the main strength of the perk while just running around trailing chases.because if it were you would not be presenting or sharing an idea, you'd be talking about the thing everyone is already talking about.
Once again, wrong. There are many perks with subcommunities that serve various unique purposes. This is, in fact, one of the only perks that serves the subcommunity of people that wanna play with friends and be able to type to them while playing DBD. There's no other perk, except Jonah's perk, that serves this purpose. And for Jonah's perk, it does a terrible job at that and basically throws away a perk slot, rather than being integrated as a genuinely useful perk while also serving that purpose. -
@HexSlugged said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4086711#Comment_4086711
all of those perks are to assist you with engaging with the game.
you want to engage less with the game. no matter how much you try your positioning is just wrong and not accurate to the games design or purpose.
If you dont wanna pay attention to the game your playing with other people and as such ensure everyone in the game is able to have the best game you can and you want to be doing something else like chatting with your friend and not looking at your computer screens, there are activities you can do that arent video games that impact other peoples experience that dont require you to pay attention.
If you are going to play multiplayer games that include people other than you and your friends have the decency to not be lazy and play the game or let your slot in the match be filled by someone interested in playing the match.
This perk also engages with the game. I'm not sure if you forgot but the second most powerful component quite literally forces u to engage with the game. Because otherwise, the perk has no real power.
Also, it's funny that you purely consider sitting at the generator the gameplay you wish to defend so much. It already barely is any form of gameplay to begin with. And it's hardly a matter of being "Lazy" as the only thing you have to do is mindlessly stare at your screen for 90 seconds. -
@cogsturning said:
Can we also get a perk that gives killers free gen regression and free hooks when they want to go get a little snack?
Dead man switch. You already have a perk buying you free extra time.
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@HexSlugged said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4086580#Comment_4086580
the other perks arent there specifically to benefit people who want to pay less attention to the game.
What you want a perk like this to be for is NOT what the point of perks are.
The point of a perk is to provide power, which this perk does.
And there are plenty of perks that benefit people who want to pay less attention to the game;
1. Premonition
2. Dark Sense
3. Sprint Burst (Helps you not pay much attention to the environment and still get away from the gen safely)
4. Detective's hunch
5. Kindred
6. Rookie Spirit
7. Small Game
8. Spine Chill
9. Stake Out
10. Visionary -
@HexSlugged said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4086450#Comment_4086450
considering failing skill checks is an information source for killers and when you are playing the game you should be looking at your screen to hit those skill checks even if you arent listening to the game and this is how the game is set up to work, no you shouldnt get to penalise a player because you want to play the game less which is literally what you are advocating for.
You want to be rewarded for not paying attention to the game you signed up for. you should be punished for not paying attention, not rewarded.
It is indeed an information source for killers (and in higher elo games one that barely ever get to use). Do you know what other things are information sources? Scratch-marks. And guess what. Perks help hide those information sources. Do you know what another information source is? Aura. And guess what; Perks like distortion also help deny those information sources.
That is exactly the point of perks. -
@HexSlugged said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4086060#Comment_4086060
the perks in the game are related to your interactions in the game and what you do in it.
you want to add a perk that is not related to game interactions and instead gives you a benefit by not interacting and paying attention to the game to make things easier for you. so you can play less than the others in the match.
if your too lazy or uninterested to pay attention the game you are playing with other people than go play a game that ONLY has your friends who also arent interested in paying attention to the game your playing or go play a single player game.
if you want to be rewarded for playing dbd then play dbd. dont ask to be rewarded for playing dbd by playing it less.
Like I said, still a useless points. You could say the same thing for Stakeout. Almost all perks give you things for free.
Though your use of the language of "playing the game" is very exaggerated. We are not talking about a perk that automates your looping against the killer, aka the real gameplay of the game.
We are literally talking about sitting on a gen here. Hardly the gameplayest elements of gameplayings in DBD. And hardly much gameplay at all. -
@HexSlugged said:
so….you want to penalize the killer for you not wanting to pay attention in the game you and 4 other people made a commitment to play together?
"Penalizing the killer". All survivor perks penalize the killer, and all killer perks penalize survivors. That's just not a good point.
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@Feather said:
I like that idea, but extra health state would mean you could get 4 extra health states in total in SWF
And when paired with shoulder the burden...
It could be nice rework idea tho
Not too dissimilar to Resurgence, which gives 5.6 extra health states.
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https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4081951#Comment_4081951
Sometimes saying nothing is the most wisdom
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@FoxGhoul said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4078225#Comment_4078225
It doesn't matter if the pallets have been nerfed and are mind-gameable if the survivors have no reason to mind game them, there is a pallet every 5 feet from each other and they can run pallet to pallet and just shut their brain off. The pallet density is a joke and is extremely survivor sided, the whole "you can mind game them" doesn't matter because survivors can just turn their brain off with windows and run yellow glow to yellow glow dropping everything they see for the next 10 mins while gens pop because there are 50 ######### pallets on maps.
You can in fact not freely run to any other loop at mind-gameable pallets whenever you want so that is simply untrue. Only if you mess up do survivors gain the opportunity. So that experience you might've had might just be the result of a skill issue of you playing as a mediocre killer playing against superior survivors and not wanting to admit that you got bested.
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@BongoBoys said:
Its safe to say Diminishing Returns is a failure the Meta was left unaffected and mid to niche perks are even more worthless then before.
Changes needs to happen to DR firstly to effect the Meta look at this example Pop, Pain Res, Corrupt intervention, Dead lock and DMS Meta slowdown and gen regression untouched by DR because they all have separate instances of slowdown and regression that protects them from DR what we need is a new system that checks the perks equipped in the lobby and if it's stacking perks like these it'll still nerf the numbers even when they are seperate instances.
Addons:
Addons need to be affected by DR because certain add-ons paired with certain perks create busted combos.
Finally with the DR in place niche perk combos that were niche in strength are now dead completely now Devs need to go through all low picked perks and Introduce massive buffs to all of them to make them viable enough to run solo.
Until proper solutions and changes are introduced nobody is happy with the current Diminishing Returns.
I do agree that the current implementation for Diminishing Returns is a failure. I don't think diminishing returns was ever even supposed to change the meta. It was however supposed to help to allow safer perk design without creating issues with pre-existing perks.
I've suggested to them how they could implement Diminishing Returns in a healthier way so hopefully they'll listen to the feedback