Firellius
Firellius
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The game actually got slower on the survivor side. Basekit regression was boosted, and gens take longer to complete. Killers tunnel more because there's more room to do so, with DS getting a really agressive nerf. Additionally, with gens taking longer, the best counter to tunnelling (Rushing gens) also got nerfed.
This in turn means that survivors need to bumrush generators because a tunnelling killer cannot be challenged after they start tunnelling, you have to be on it from the start. And with survivors stacking as much anti-tunnel as possible in order to stand a chance, killers have started circumventing all of it by using slugging.
I legitimately think that tunnelling/slugging/camping are lynchpins in balancing issues and a lot of problems could be resolved if those methods were nerfed. But any attempt to address them will get met with outrage, so they get a free pass.
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@Mikeadatrix said:
I get the sentiment but having to run perks for BP is slapping a band-aid over a bullet hole. BP gains should be increased across the board and transparency about the BP economy (quest rewards, codes, Anniv Cake debacle) should be prioritized. As someone who ran BBQ every single game for YEARS because of the BP bonus, I would love if it never came back so I have the freedom for build diversity.
Middle-point: Basekit WGLF and BBQ's old BP quests without the perks.
Those quests create a win-condition without requiring the opponent loses, and I fully believe that that is incredibly healthy, and that its removal did way more damage than people realise.
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@Malkhrim said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4107915#Comment_4107915
The fact your comment is getting so many downvotes just for saying this goes to show some people come to this forums just to rant and throw hate after they had bad matches. What you said is very obviously right, but somehow it seems it angered some people.
I don't think it is right.
Firstly, I'm not sure the majority can be classed as 'survivors' or 'survivor players', as I wager the majority will play both roles. Of what's left, I would not be surprised if there's more 'hard-mains' on the killer side, as that has significantly more variety, given that every killer plays fundamentally differently.
Then there's also the profitability argument, which I think is also in favour of killers, since survivors are just skins whereas killers are actual gameplay elements.
And then there's the track record, where, ever since 6.1, it is clear that BHVR has had its ear to the ground when it comes to killer grievances, and has placed those at a higher priority than survivors. Which is why the net result of the promise to finally try and tackle tunnelling after ten years, is a nerf to an anti-tunnel perk. And a lot of their decisions have been motivated using exact killer complaints with exact verbiage, too.
It's not unreasonable to think that BHVR treats the survivor role as second-class.
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@Your_Dad_Playing_DbD said:
If you’re getting slugged and left on the ground for a long time, that’s a problem with your teammates, not the killer. Teammates can see your aura to come pick you up just like they see you on hook to come rescue you when you get hooked. Why are your teammates not coming to pick you up?? And getting slugged is way better than getting hooked because you don’t get a hook state to get you closer to elimination. This is why I am so confused about all the outrage about slugging. You should be glad that the killer is not hooking you! I always say that people who complain about slugging should try playing some killer matches, never hook anyone, and see how many matches you win.
Why are your teammates not coming to pick you up??
You say that as if the killer is going to just let them.
Prior to off-the-hook Endurance being basekitted, it was considered a survivor error to unhook someone in the killer's presence without BT. Same goes here. If someone tries to pick you up while the killer's camping you, that's costing you gen progress and is likely to end up with two slugs right next to each other.
Same as with old camping, the only correct move against such a play is to genrush. You are supposed to not pick up the slug unless you are sure they're not camped.
And even then, high mobility killers can camp from halfway across the map anyway...
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- DS back to 5 second stun, minimum. This perk worked against tunnelling and trying to use it to bodyblock will down a survivor, costing the survivors more than the killer. It is a much, much cleaner solution than endurance.
- OTR loses the endurance, but gains complete info black-out for the duration. No blood pools, no breathing, no grunts of pain, no scratch marks, no killer instinct, no aura, no footsteps, nada. Make it a higher risk, higher reward anti-tunnel by making it significantly more achievable to break chase. Also cannot be used offensively.
- De-standardise invocations. If all invocations are going to be 60 seconds in basement with perma-broken, there can never be a good invocation. The cost is so high that whatever has to compensate for it is going to be awful to play against for killers. Invocations should have variable costs and investments so that they can have variable output strengths. This opens up way more design space for more engaging options.
- De-standardise boons. It's nonsense that CoH shares all the same parameters with Dark Theory. Some boons should have greater ranges, some should have smaller ones, some should take longer to set up, some should harm the survivor if they get snuffed out, some should have cooldowns when broken. Vary the parameters and you once again create a TON of design space that you can use to make a wide swath of perks that are engaging and easy to balance.
- Further de-standardise hexes. This is one of the few categories that has had some work done here, with Two Can Play being able to reignite itself even if destroyed, and Face the Darkness having its little hide-and-seek game. Similarly, some hexes should have lingering effects when broken, some should have conditions under which they can be reignited. This can help make hexes be 'the right choice' more frequently.
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@Elan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4102768#Comment_4102768
I said killer players tend to highest possible win rate so do survivors. One thing is what you aim for and second is the reality. Surely game is defienetly survivor sided. I played a lot of asym games, but DBD is only game offering tools to fight mechanics such as camping, tunneling and slugging and people are still complaining eventhough they have those options. You hate tunnel, you pop on off the record or ds. You hate slugging, you pop on unbreakable, we gonan live forever, made for this, you hate camping, you pop on reassurance, camaraderie. There are options on killer side too. You hate sprint, you pop on laguid touch, you hate genrush you pop on slowdowns, you want jumpscares, you pop on stealth perks… I'm not defending either side from toxicity, as I said earlier this event was one of the most miserable time playing survivor I've ever had in this game but on the other side no one can deny that it's up to survivors how the game will go. As long as you spread on gens and do them when out of chase, even if someone is hard tunneled you shouldve have at least 2 out and most my survivor loses are to bad teammates as someone said, a lot of kill rate is killer killing someone as "weak link" which leadss into 3v1 scenario which is mostly a guaranteed loss. If the survivor vaults into you and get hit then greed pallet and get hit or go for meme youtube techs that don't work is it killer being too good or surivors throwing the game? Honestly a hot take, people picking hex jason or 4 stacked slowdown ghoul and call themselves exceptional players. I get that there are cheap stuffs on both sides but please don't tell me that the game is anything from balanced to killer-sided. PS: I was big supporter of antitunnel Krasue midchapter they announced and was dissapointed by the scapping it, because it offered incentives as well as protections.
I said killer players tend to highest possible win rate so do survivors.
I asked you what your killrate would be if the game was 'balanced' and you stated that you want to get a 3K every single game. That does come across to me as an implicit admission that you want to have the game balanced in such a way that you never, ever lose on killer.
Surely game is defienetly survivor sided. I played a lot of asym games, but DBD is only game offering tools to fight mechanics such as camping, tunneling and slugging and people are still complaining eventhough they have those options.
This furthers that. The idea that the game is 'definitely survivor sided' because survivors are given options to counter some objectively game-breaking concepts, despite these counters failing to pull killrates to decent values, shows where your bar for balance lies.
Anything the survivors get, is apparently way too much.
You're also flat incorrect about DBD being the only game to do this. In fact, off the top of my head, DBD does this less than at least two other games in its genre. Carnival Hunt has stronger anti-tunnel, basekit, and TCSM designed its way around some of these problems and made them flat-out impossible.
If anything, DBD is holding the killers' hands by refusing to address the issue properly and giving them as much leeway to break the game however they wish, before dumping the onus of dealing with it on the side that's suffering from it to begin with.
A truly survivor-sided game wouldn't clog the survivors' loadouts with perks that only function at the killer's discretion. It'd give you basekit DS, basekit unbreakable, basekit anti-camp that actually works. But BHVR has given them none of that. There was one attempt, which got the quickest shut-down in the game's history, all because the developers are so focused on keeping the killers happy.
But they can't be appeased.
Because killers put the bar at a 100% winrate.
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@Elan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4102763#Comment_4102763
Hard to say. I consider myself being decent killer player, having 100 % kill rate on killers like Knight or Skull Merchant during event but only 82 % on Jason. I'd say that as both side player I can't give pleasing answer to either side. Guess both sides want to win all their matches, but with such a difference between killers the kill rate will never be valid to pick as balancing aspect. I believe that against truly skilled 4-man the killer has nothing to compete while against uncoordinated solo q the killer will dominate, even the weaker ones. As a killer player I'd say that I want to have 3k every game, meaning 75 % total kill rate, which kinda suits atm even with my mercy and competing for hatch nature. On survivor I don't mind dying as long as I have fun, which I didn't really have against same few killers with iri add ons, stacked slowdown and tunneling. I'm kinda chill and run off meta so I purely rely on luck heh. My most used build latey - survivor (extrasensory perception, open handed, lend a hand and 5 moves ahead) - killer (turn back the clock, genetic limits, jagged compass, floods of rage)
So your actual answer here is 'I want killer to have a 100% winrate, anything below that is survivor-sided'?
Am I understanding this correctly?
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@Elan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4102758#Comment_4102758
The game isbalanced around casual players. I have killrate 75 % total but that doesn't mean that the game is killer sided. Just that you know how the game works and have experiences to predict in chase.
What would your kill rate be if the game was 'balanced', then?
90%? 95%?
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@Slurp_Ramen said:
’ugh this game is so killer sided smh’
We, objectively, just had THE most survivor biased game mode in history which only a handful of killers were good (but still boring in).
Chaos shuffle and lights out are returning with changes that only serve to screw over killers that have meme add ons (padded jaws trapper being an example for chaos shuffle) or in the case of lights out giving survivors free windows of opportunity essentially nullifying the point of the event and breaks the dark spooky immersion of the game mode.
But yeah let’s push the narrative that killers get what they want all the time while ignoring the facts, like a certain tall Brazilian woman getting soft removed from the game for over a year because of all the complaining surrounding her from people who’d rather DC than actually learn to play.People talking about DBD as a whole and you're going to point at side modes as a counter-argument?
Not to mention that Chaos Shuffle just pulled parity between the sides, since it made little sense to leave survivors with full random (Lol @ No Mither) but then give killers bad-luck-protection.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4102268#Comment_4102268
Won't work for campers. They should just take the invincibility and invisibility ideas and combine the with total silence. There's no way to abuse being silent, invisible, and having no collision. They won't do it though because it's too absolute.
IMO, what they should've done all the way back in 6.1 is turn OTR into a complete info black-out perk: No screams, no breathing, no grunts of pain, no blood pools, no scratch marks, no aura, no footsteps, no killer instinct, nothing.
And then absolutely not touch DS, unless it is to buff the stun duration.
This would be way stronger anti-tunnel without being abusable.
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@Xendritch said:
It's hard to take a post that defends original Dead Hard one of the most obviously unhealthy perks the game of all time seriously. Not to mention completely ignoring the fact that plenty of killer perks have also been nerfed Undying, Ruin, NOED, Call of Brine, Pop, STBFL, Ultimate Weapon, etc so acting like only one side gets what it wants is revisionist history.
I want to point out that both Pop and STBFL were rebalanced after they were partially made basekit.
2.1 STBFL dropped the attack cooldown to 1.8 seconds. After 6.1, this got inadvertently buffed due to the basekitting of two stacks of it, resulting in a 1.62 second cooldown, which was so short that it made unhooking nearly impossible.
Now, STBFL drops the cooldown from 2.7 to 1.832 seconds. That's a 0.032 second increase. I doubt anyone actually notices.
Pop went from 25% to 20%, but then, again, that's against a backdrop of ALL gen-kicks stripping a portion of progress away.
If you have these perks equipped, for the most part, they're indistinguishable from their pre-6.1 versions, because the only bits that got taken away, got added to every killer's basekit.
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@Domicci said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4099340#Comment_4099340
"That's not relevant here though, is it?"
its insanely relevant when we are talking about how we should balance the game should we punish survivors for doing gens efficiently because killers feel like they are getting gen rushed? ow wait no you wouldnt say we should sense the survey didnt ask that because the first one didnt have any killer problems just survivors because again thats who the devs care about.
'Link it, because so far I'm finding an Ignobel award for an actual spaghetti sauce thing that has nothing to do with surveys, and something about marketing segmentation which also does not mention psychology."
surveys are an insanely huge part of part of marketing its why our data is so valuable and companies sell it to one another a survey is just a more refined version of out data if you can extrapolate its not hard to see how it connects to not having a choice for killers to talk about there problems then same way survivors do its like the different kinds of sauces if you dont give people the choice they wont pick it. Its actialy why i liked the new what IP's you want to see in dbd survey was actually half decent wit ha entire tab asking for you to think about things you would want in the game. the should have randomized the order of list the gave but other then that its was a good asking for ip ideas survey,
"How does it apply here? There was a wide list of options and an 'Other, please specify'. It's a very bold and stretching claim to imply that a large number of people were subconsciously shunted to picking tunnelling as an option when the majority of them felt like tunnelling was not a big deal, especially when a hatred for tunnelling is frequently echoed around the forums and social media too."
one social media curates negativity so you will see more of it i have seen streamers complain about tunneling for 30 minites and they were not even tunneled that whole stream just killed first. second an other choice is not good when put at the end of a survey the biased of the survey will effect what a person will be willing to talk about its why you should place the other on a seperate page where they will not be influenced by the choices the person asking for the survey gave its why i can praise the new IP survey just a small tweak and it would be perfect.
"Okay. Killers are overpowered by all we know, so tapping them down is fine.
But also, if tunnelling is 'just playing effectively', that implies that it is currently, balance-wise, ahead of its alternatives. Which means it would improve balance to nerf it down."
its the most effective way and always will be the most effective way because a 3v1 is objectively better to deal with as the 1 then a 4v1. its simple math just like spitting up and doing 3 gens at once is better then 2 people on a single gen its simple math yet again. tunneling is used because survivor is so strong, if survivor wasnt as strong killer wouldn't need to tunnel. even in comp the tunnel every single match even on s tiers. the problem is the devs want to hand hold bad survivors which good survivors weaponize, like with the better bt base kit. is constantly weaponized and is one of the many reasons i stopped hooking and just slug because survivors get more from hooking them i do as killer but also why i run an unhook build sense i get so much from unhooking might as well make it even better like with babysitter self pres and will make it letting me reset survivors off hook insanely fast in a safe spot and even if i mess up my teammate will usually use there off hook bt aggressively letting me live.
"Which is killers. They've openly stated this, and ever since 6.1, there's been a deluge of buffs for killers."
they can balance for survivor while still throwing small buffs to killers and lets not forget the massive nerf all killers got with base kit bt being increased and still working in end game and the pallet density update making some killers go from mid b tier to low c tier because they just turn into beavers eating wood most of the match. the devs also shown it this year with nerfing jason off rip yet leaving a broken survivor perk in cross exam unchanged from ptb even tho survivor main creators were saying its broken. we can also look at how they use kill switch's when the infinite item glitch was unkill switched and the devs told players how to do it.
"We are seeing the flat opposite though. Killer complaints have their verbiage copied 1-to-1, whereas the biggest survivor complaint for ten years running is still struggling to be addressed. Hell, look at what happened to fog vials!
Anyone who still claims, post-6.1, that the devs are 'survivor-sided' is just pig-headedly denying reality. It is patently obvious that the killers have a death grip on this game's balancing team. Just because kill rates aren't aimed at 80 instead of 60 doesn't mean they're 'survivor-sided'."
how are we seeing flat opposite killer queue times are around 2 minites or even under a minite thats showing we have way more survivor players again math basicy math we need 4 survivors for every killer so if we have 30 killers for every 100 players 14 of the killers will have to wait for a match and before jason i had the bp bonus on the killer side meaning we had under 20% of the players as killer on my server.
also agins with the math 60% kill rate is a 50% win rate for killer because again its a 1v4 games the killer has 5 possible out comes 3 being negative 2 positive meaning you need a 60% kill rate to have a neutral experience on killer but no killer breaks 60% kill rate on night light because im sorry till the devs make all stats public im not trusting there strats they have shown they don't understand stats multiple times. not to mention the problem of survivors giving up under hook making survivor stats inflated. i play dredge as my main killer and about 1 in 4 games i have someone give up under hook after first chase or even before first chase because they dont want to play into dredge a mid c tier killer.
its insanely relevant when we are talking about how we should balance the game should we punish survivors for doing gens efficiently because killers feel like they are getting gen rushed? ow wait no you wouldnt say we should
I literally just did!
To quote: "Legitimately, the game would be better if survivors splitting up on gens (The safest way to play) were not also simultaneously the most effective way to play."
If the current balance of the game leads to gameplay that people find frustrating, then that's reason to look at changing the current balance. Not to mention that BHVR has already taken a step in that direction, too: Spawn rules were changed specifically to make splitting up on gens less effective.
surveys are an insanely huge part of part of marketing
Yes, but what you're talking about is the domain of psychology, and that one wasn't mentioned. There was no mention about surveys being constructed to specifically make people give false answers.
Which is what you're banking on with your deflection of the survey result.
its why you should place the other on a seperate page
Why would you do that if you want to get an accurate answer? Why would you specifically first try and put them through a wringer with limited answer options to then rug-pull them and show them that, actually, you can answer as you wish?
Because that sounds, to me, like you're actually trying to create the problem you are complaining about.
its the most effective way and always will be the most effective way
Really? Because if all survivors got a 10-second stun DS for free, I'd wager that tunnelling becomes pretty inconvenient.
Or if every survivor death gave the rest of the survivors +60% repair speed.
Extreme examples, obviously, but it's to illustrate that you're either incapable or unwilling to think of a solution, not that there necessarily can be no solution.
if survivor wasnt as strong killer wouldn't need to tunnel.
And we know that that's not true, because 6.1 hiked all kill rates AND saw an increase in tunnelling. And as many have noted on the forums, too, the more powerful the killer is, the more likely they are to tunnel. Pigs, Wraiths, Doctors, Clowns, etc. appear to be less likely to tunnel than Blights, Nurses, Ghouls and the like.
We've heard this argument plenty, but it never bore out to anything. Almost like tunnelling killers are just using it as a beatstick to threaten the balancing team with in order to get some more survivor nerfs out. (After which they will resume tunnelling because why not?)
is constantly weaponized and is one of the many reasons i stopped hooking and just slug because survivors get more from hooking them i do as killer
I thought you said tunnelling was -always- going to be the most effective way?
they can balance for survivor while still throwing small buffs to killers
Except they aren't balancing 'for survivor' and the buffs thrown at killers aren't small.
the massive nerf all killers got with base kit bt being increased
You mean the tunnelling killers. Basekit BT ain't changing much in games where killers don't proc it.
the devs also shown it this year with nerfing jason off rip yet leaving a broken survivor perk in cross exam unchanged from ptb
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Cross Exam not even make it off PTB before being slated for a crippling nerf?
how are we seeing flat opposite killer queue times are around 2 minites
Because queue times are not a single-factor indicator. As I've already mentioned, the devs have openly stated to balance in favour of killers. Look at how fog-vials ended up, look at what happened to the anti-tunnel PTB, look at the power creep in intel perks, look at what happened to Distortion in response to that, look at them copying the verbiage from killer complaints on the forums…
The devs are constantly trying to do right by the killer community, and every attempt just shifts the goalposts and makes them more irate. Just because your demands are ever-growing doesn't mean the dev team isn't bending over backwards trying to satisfy them.
also agins with the math 60% kill rate is a 50% win rate for killer because again its a 1v4 games the killer has 5 possible out comes 3 being negative 2 positive meaning you need a 60% kill rate to have a neutral experience on killer
Oh, not this again…
No, you're assuming perfect distribution of outcomes and everyone knows that DBD leans heavily towards the extreme ends. 2Ks are exceptionally rare in comparison to the other outcomes, and there's a ton of factors involved with said distribution of outcomes.
Anyone who tries to claim that any kind of killrate 'is' any kind of winrate is going to be flat-out wrong. It's a fool's errand to try and distill that equation. It's not even the same for every individual killer.
no killer breaks 60% kill rate on night light because im sorry till the devs make all stats public im not trusting there strats they have shown they don't understand stats multiple times.
You're not coming off stellar yourself, here.
Firstly, while BHVR may not be good at interpreting stats, there is no reason to assume that the stat releases they do are tainted by that as they're simply stat releases. They're not interpretations. They don't 'interpret' a killer to have a certain kill-rate. That killer HAS that kill-rate.
The only thing you can argue about is about their habit of disqualifying matches with a disconnect, but given that the disconnect penalty mostly leans on the survivor side and there's more likely to be a disconnect in a match the survivors are losing, this would imply the actual killrates are higher than what BHVR shows, since the majority of matches that are thrown out are matches the killer was likely winning.
But for someone who's taking a fine-toothed comb through a survey to try to ascribe all kinds of psychological manipulations to it, the fact that you are more willing to take NIGHTLIGHT's stats over BHVR's is especially hypocritical. Ever heard of self-selection bias?
Think about it, the matches recorded to Nightlight have been recorded by a participant. Do you think players are more, or less likely to record matches that they lose?
And then consider which there will be more of: Survivor players, or killer players.
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@KingOfGhost said:
I am fairly sure you did not read what I wrote, so let me clarify it.
The slowdown only activates if all three of the following conditions are met at the same time:
- The killer has fewer than five hooks.
- The survivors have completed a total of 270 generator charges.
- All four survivors are still alive.
If even one of those conditions is not met, there is no slowdown.
Additionally, every regression event applied to a generator reduces that generator’s slowdown by four percentage points. This means the slowdown becomes weaker over time as the killer attempts to defend the generators.
If a killer tunnels one survivor and completes five chases, the other survivors should still be able to complete roughly three to four generators’ worth of progress before that survivor dies. At that point, the remaining survivors should still have a strong chance of escaping.
This is not intended as a punishment for survivors. It is meant to help weaker killers catch up when the survivors are progressing too quickly.
The game is currently in a state where generators can be completed extremely fast. Survivors have many perks and items that increase repair efficiency. This slowdown would only help bridge the gap so both sides have enough time to participate in the match.
In my original post, I also gave survivors a comeback mechanic. It simply activates during a 2v1 rather than a 3v1.
What would you suggest instead? Would you give the killer a comeback mechanic during a 4v1 and then give survivors comeback mechanics during both a 3v1 and a 2v1? Or do you believe killers should not receive any comeback mechanic while survivors should receive one in both situations?
The claim that survivors have almost no comeback potential is false. Survivors can still win through strong chases. If a survivor reads the killer correctly and plays loops well, they can buy more than enough time for the team to escape.
The real problem is the sunk-cost mentality. When generators are completed quickly and the killer has already invested a large amount of time chasing one survivor who still has many resources available, the killer may feel forced to continue tunnelling that survivor to justify the time already spent.
However, if a mechanic reduces that pressure, the killer may be more willing to abandon the chase and pursue someone else. The purpose of this system is to help the average killer make that decision.
Bloodlust exists because of poor map design. You know that some loops require Bloodlust for many killers to have any realistic chance of catching the survivor. Even then, the killer immediately loses Bloodlust when they break a pallet or use most killer powers.
Blocked windows exist for a similar reason: to prevent infinite loops. If survivors had no limit on how many times they could vault the same window, certain loops would become impossible to counter, even with Bloodlust.
These are not comeback mechanics for killers. They are necessary systems that allow the game to function.
Let me make sure I understand your position on camping. If the killer remains near the general area of the hook, patrols nearby generators, watches the hook, or does anything else you consider camping, survivors still have several options.
They can coordinate a rescue and give the unhooked survivor time to reach the nearest loop. Alternatively, they can focus on generators and punish the killer for remaining near the hook.
Those options already exist in the current version of Dead by Daylight. However, I assume you do not consider them sufficient and would prefer the killer to be forcibly teleported away from the hook.
Under my proposed system, survivors could still make the same choices. Repairing generators while the slowdown is active would take longer, but they could still build significant progress. Once the slowdown deactivates, those generators could already be close to completion.
Again, players who enter a match intending to tunnel someone from five generators will always exist. You cannot completely prevent that behaviour without also punishing killers who are playing normally.
I agree with your final point. Some players enter a match intending to slug all four survivors while earning very few Bloodpoints, just as some survivor groups enter a match intending to bully the killer.
It is difficult to prevent either behaviour without negatively affecting normal players. The better approach is to provide meaningful rewards for not playing that way.
I am fairly sure you did not read what I wrote, so let me clarify it.
The slowdown only activates if all three of the following conditions are met at the same time
And I fully understand what you wrote. The problem is:
If a killer decides to tunnel the first person he sees, but does not manage to kill them before the other survivors clear as many charges, then he is rewarded for it with a 32% slowdown.
Imagine he gets the second hook on that initial tunnel target when there's 240 charges done. That's 80 seconds of work if the other three survivors split up and just did work.
What are the survivors now supposed to do? If they continue doing gens, they'll be giving the killer 'forever Freddy' levels of slowdown. If they hold off and just sit around, the last survivor will die and there'll be a 3v1 which heavily, heavily advantages the killer.
From the killer's perspective, this is worse, because if you decide to just hard-focus one person, not only are you very quickly steering the game towards a 3v1, which is massively advantageous to you, you're also guaranteed very heavy slowdown if you fail to do so quickly, with a chance for getting both at the same time if they happen to finish that 270th charge, just before you death hook your tunnel target.
With this idea hard-punishing survivors for doing gens at the start of the match, why not hard-focus one target and leave the others completely unpressured? The only thing they can do is gens, which this suggestion would punish them for. This change would very aggressively tell killers to tunnel more.
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@Domicci said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4099324#Comment_4099324
feeling tunneled and being tunneled are not the same thing. just like killers saying they feel gen rushed when they were not. and again the survey literally asked 0 questions the first time for killers. They literally asked if killer perks were unfun but not if survivor perks were unfun just showing how biased the devs are.
"You can bicker as much as you like about where tunnelling ranks on the problem list, but the survey does show that tunnelling is, indeed, a problem. Unless you aggressively, specifically bias the survey against it, I don't see a way to change it and somehow have tunnelling not show up as a problem anymore."
please look into the "spaghetti sauce study" its shows how giving people limited choices makes them pick things they don't really feel or want. this applies here with a survey that was completely survivor sided and had tunneling be one of the first few options making it more likely to be choses. when you do surveys you 1 dont want the list to be the same for everyone sense you will effect the results with that, second you want a balance of all sides argument and outlooks, so in this case having only a single side cared about will effect the outcome. lastly you need clear definitions that have no real wiggle room if you want to know if someone doesnt like lets use gen-rushing we need to define exactly what it is and stick to that and guess what the devs failed on literally every single one of these
also i was on my phone so sorry i didn't use proper punctuation.
"Yes, but the point is: Imagine if it wasn't.
That's the point of balance changes. Balance changes are useless if they must maintain the current balance."
balance changes should work to make the game more balanced not less. when the devs repeatedly show which side they balance for its a problem that needs addressed, but since most of the player base is survivors and therefore have the larger voice they will have more pull on this weird bad data driven balancing. when the devs can prove first they are not survivor mains with how they address and talk about each side, show they understand how to pull and read data properly and lastly listen to both sides not just the louder side i will start believing the game could be more balanced and not so survivor sided.
feeling tunneled and being tunneled are not the same thing.
That's not relevant here though, is it?
please look into the "spaghetti sauce study"
Link it, because so far I'm finding an Ignobel award for an actual spaghetti sauce thing that has nothing to do with surveys, and something about marketing segmentation which also does not mention psychology.
its shows how giving people limited choices makes them pick things they don't really feel or want. this applies here
How does it apply here? There was a wide list of options and an 'Other, please specify'. It's a very bold and stretching claim to imply that a large number of people were subconsciously shunted to picking tunnelling as an option when the majority of them felt like tunnelling was not a big deal, especially when a hatred for tunnelling is frequently echoed around the forums and social media too.
balance changes should work to make the game more balanced not less.
Okay. Killers are overpowered by all we know, so tapping them down is fine.
But also, if tunnelling is 'just playing effectively', that implies that it is currently, balance-wise, ahead of its alternatives. Which means it would improve balance to nerf it down.
when the devs repeatedly show which side they balance for
Which is killers. They've openly stated this, and ever since 6.1, there's been a deluge of buffs for killers.
but since most of the player base is survivors and therefore have the larger voice they will have more pull
We are seeing the flat opposite though. Killer complaints have their verbiage copied 1-to-1, whereas the biggest survivor complaint for ten years running is still struggling to be addressed. Hell, look at what happened to fog vials!
Anyone who still claims, post-6.1, that the devs are 'survivor-sided' is just pig-headedly denying reality. It is patently obvious that the killers have a death grip on this game's balancing team. Just because kill rates aren't aimed at 80 instead of 60 doesn't mean they're 'survivor-sided'.
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@Domicci said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4099316#Comment_4099316
Aww yes let's use a insanly biased survey. I litteraly have an entire paper abiut hwo what choices you put on a survey effects the survey and it being so survivor sided and survivors also calling basicly killing them tunneling which I have been accused of multiple times when I 12 hook and didnt stack any hook states hooking a new person every time as well as yhe devs nkt even knowing what tunneling is and proving it with the ptbs that survey is utterly useless and so biased to only care abiut survivors needs I would get laughed at by my higher ups if I tried to use thay data in a test and probably reprimanded and retained sense I dealt with life and death problem. The devs do not know how to read data and its shown every tome the talk about data.
But it litteraly is and survivors have more time to not do there objectively being around 340 second while killers with 30 second chases habe 600 seconds to do there objectives killers have to use every thing given to them to win unlike survivors who can make multiple mistakes and it not impact the game as much as killers mistakes one bad chase can lose the killer and entire match same cant be said for survivor.
Aww yes let's use a insanly biased survey. I litteraly have an entire paper abiut hwo what choices you put on a survey effects the survey and it being so survivor sided and survivors also calling basicly killing them tunneling which I have been accused of multiple times when I 12 hook and didnt stack any hook states hooking a new person every time as well as yhe devs nkt even knowing what tunneling is and proving it with the ptbs that survey is utterly useless and so biased to only care abiut survivors needs I would get laughed at by my higher ups if I tried to use thay data in a test and probably reprimanded and retained sense I dealt with life and death problem.
With how badly your sentences run on, that entire paper could be as few as three sentences.
Regardless, you can keep plugging your head in the sand, but regardless of the presence of other options, people would not be answering 'tunnelling' as one of the reasons they quit if they didn't feel tunnelling contributed to them quitting.
You can bicker as much as you like about where tunnelling ranks on the problem list, but the survey does show that tunnelling is, indeed, a problem. Unless you aggressively, specifically bias the survey against it, I don't see a way to change it and somehow have tunnelling not show up as a problem anymore.
People that have left the game have explicitly told BHVR, in not inconsequential numbers: Tunnelling is part of why I left.
That qualifies it as a problem.
But it litteraly is
Yes, but the point is: Imagine if it wasn't.
That's the point of balance changes. Balance changes are useless if they must maintain the current balance.
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@Domicci said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4099311#Comment_4099311
First off the devs dont even know what tunneling it they consider killing tunneling you canhook everyone and hook the 3 person you hooked 2 times and they consider that tunneling and I knkw this because in the ptb that counted as tunneling the dudes used his 30 second of endurance to body block me so I took him out and the anti hook kicked in because he was my 6th hook. The devs do not know how to read data or extrapolate data and have proven it time and time again. Tunneling isnt a problem its just killers being effective. Should survivors be punished for splitting up to do gens? No because they are playing effectively just like a kilelr tunneling out a survivot when 2 gens pop in under 90 seconds
Tunneling isnt a problem
It's been consistently complained about for 10 years and features as one of the top reasons people quit the game. That absolutely qualifies it as a problem.
Should survivors be punished for splitting up to do gens? No because they are playing effectively
Legitimately, the game would be better if survivors splitting up on gens (The safest way to play) were not also simultaneously the most effective way to play.
But that requires you to think beyond what the game is now, which necessarily means you cannot simply accept tunnelling 'because it's just killers playing effective'.
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@KingOfGhost said:
If you read the ideas I suggested, I included catch-up mechanics for both sides.
For killers, if the survivors have completed 60% or more of their objective while the killer has completed less than 50% of theirs, the killer would receive a generator slowdown effect. However, every time the killer regresses a generator, the slowdown on that generator becomes weaker.
This would mean killers would not need to run only slowdown perks and could use more interesting builds. Again, this mechanic would only activate if the killer has completed less than 50% of their objective while the survivors have completed at least 60% of theirs.
For survivors, if only two or fewer survivors remain, they would repair generators faster, giving them a better chance to escape.
I do not want to remove the Bloodpoints awarded for unhooking survivors. I only want the “Safe Hook Rescue” event removed because it feels pointless now that unhooked survivors receive 15 seconds of Endurance.
Does it make sense to reward someone for making a bad decision simply because the game prevents that decision from being punished?
They could keep the event, but if the survivor you rescued is hit at any point during those 15 seconds, you should lose the Safe Hook Rescue bonus.
The only reason I suggested bringing back hook grabs is that survivors should not be able to run directly in front of the killer and unhook someone without taking a significant risk.
If you dislike that idea and still want hook trades to remain possible, another option would be to make the rescuer Exposed for two seconds after unhooking while inside the killer’s Terror Radius. That would give the killer enough time to land one hit and trade the hook.
Regarding limited actions, the average survivor should not need to bless the same totem more than three times in a single match.
The healing limit is intended to help weaker killers who need two hits to down a survivor or rely on hit-and-run tactics. Realistically, an average survivor would not normally need to complete six full heals during a match.
These limits are mainly intended to counter bully squads and, in extreme cases, help the weakest killers.
In that ideal scenario, the killer would need to complete four full chases against two survivors and then one chase against another survivor.
If we assume that it takes the killer 30 seconds to find the first survivor and an average of 30 seconds for each chase, the match would already be around the three-minute mark. That is assuming the killer is extremely efficient.
An average Dead by Daylight match lasts around five to eight minutes, which means the survivors should have completed at least three generators by the time the killer reaches five hooks.
Therefore, the slowdown would not affect survivors in the ideal scenario. It would mainly help killers who cannot secure downs quickly enough or killers who require time to set up their power.
Regarding the Endgame Collapse, I will admit that I did not explain my idea clearly enough.
When I said, “Any perk that normally activates when an exit gate is opened should be disabled if the killer opens the gate,” I meant any perk that activates through or interacts with the exit gates in any way.
In that ideal scenario, the killer would need to complete four full chases against two survivors and then one chase against another survivor.
Not at all.
Remember, all you're arguing for so far is that the killer has fewer than 6 hooks and no one has died yet.
Yes, with absolute optimal play, the killer could aim for five hooks with no kills, but this can also include a killer just hard-tunnelling one person to two hookstates, and then getting rewarded with totally free jumbo-slowdown while tunnelling their initial target to death. In fact, assuming survivor competence, that is what should be happening: The tunnel target should last long enough to buy his team time, and his team should be doing gens to pressure the killers.
So basically, if the survivors make the correct plays, they get rewarded with a 32% gen slowdown.
At minimum, this entire slowdown should evaporate as soon as one survivor dies, otherwise this is a huge, HUGE boost and incentive to tunnelling.
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@Domicci said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4099283#Comment_4099283
thats not how its used its used to take pressure away from the killer. every single anti tunnel perk and effect the devs have added has been used aggressively to make the game worse for killer.
Maybe killers should stop giving them reasons to add more anti-tunnel, then.
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@Mazoobi said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/27Q6ZQO8AOFO/untitled.png
Ran into my first squad who used the perk and I must say, it's quite strong. I don't think it was the reason why I lost; granted, the map was FORGOTTEN RUINS a.k.a one of the worst maps to play as twins so there were other reasons at play but I think the perk should be looked at.
Since the map does not allow victor to go through the portals and I sensed that the squad was coordinated with some form of healing (I was correct), I had to rely on a mix of hooks and slugs which were effective until I realized that the survivors were using STB on each other even on those who did have it. That's my main concern.
IMO, the perk should NOT work on survivors who already have a stack/STB hook. The "hook count" doesn't change but I don't think its healthy for survivors to be able to spread those hooks in the first place. It should be a high risk high reward perk but the risk isn't there if survivors can easily spread the hook stages.
Of course as twins I could have easily avoided this but once again, the map was forgotten ruins and the squad was coordinated. The Twins aren't as OP as people claim them to be.
IMO, the perk should NOT work on survivors who already have a stack/STB hook.
I disagree, that'd just make it less effective against tunnelling, which is its core function.
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@KingOfGhost said:
In my opinion, Dead by Daylight needs several core system changes to make matches more interesting and less repetitive.
Hooks
The first change I would make is to give all hooks a basekit version of Monstrous Shrine. Hooking a survivor should create more pressure by default, especially when the killer is not camping and is actively moving around the map.
I would also bring back the old BBQ-style Bloodpoint bonus. For every unique survivor the killer hooks, they should receive a 25% Bloodpoint bonus at the end of the match, up to a maximum of 100%.
Hook grabs should also return because they make hook rescues feel dangerous instead of turning them into nearly free trades.
I would remove the Safe Hook Rescue score event as well. It made more sense in the past, before Borrowed Time became basekit. Back then, it rewarded survivors for avoiding rushed and unsafe saves. Now that unhooked survivors already receive 15 seconds of Endurance, the safe-unhook requirement feels outdated.
In most cases, when a survivor goes down immediately after being unhooked, it is because they either want to leave the match or the killer is playing a character such as Bubba.
Generators
If the killer has fewer than six hooks, all four survivors are still alive, and the survivors have completed 270 total generator charges—the equivalent of three full generators—then all remaining generators should receive a 32% repair-speed penalty.
However, this slowdown should not be permanent. Every regression event applied to a generator would reduce that generator’s repair-speed penalty by four percentage points. This means that the more often the killer kicks or regresses a generator, the weaker the slowdown on that generator becomes.
For example, if a generator has the full 32% penalty and the killer kicks it four times, the penalty on that generator would be reduced to 16%.
If only two survivors remain alive and more than one generator still needs to be completed, those survivors should receive a 40% repair-speed bonus.
Limited Survivor Actions
Killers already have a limit on how many times they can damage a generator before it becomes blocked from further regression events. I think survivors should have similar limits on certain repeatable actions, especially healing and blessing totems.
For healing, each survivor should be able to heal from the injured state to the healthy state up to six times during a match. The seventh time that survivor becomes injured, they should become Broken for the remainder of the match.
Mending, being picked up from the dying state, recovering from other status effects, or being healed from the dying state would not count toward this limit.
This would mainly help weaker killers who struggle against constant healing and repeated resets. It would not make the strongest killers significantly stronger because those killers usually win through chase pressure, mobility, or instant-down abilities rather than gradual injury pressure.
For boons, survivors should only be able to bless a totem three times. If the killer snuffs out that survivor’s boon for a fourth time, the totem should be destroyed instead.
This would still allow boon perks to have an impact, but it would prevent survivors from repeatedly replacing the same boon throughout the entire match.
Survivor Bloodpoints
Survivors should also be rewarded for playing a complete match instead of focusing on only one objective. I would give survivors a 25% Bloodpoint bonus for each unique objective they complete, up to a maximum of 100%.
The four objectives would be:
- Break or bless a totem.
- Contribute a total of 80 charges toward repairing generators.
- Spend a total of 45 seconds in chase with the killer.
- Heal or unhook another survivor.
This would encourage survivors to interact with more parts of the game. A survivor who only hides and repairs generators would earn fewer Bloodpoints than someone who helps the team, takes chase, completes side objectives, and participates in rescues.
Endgame
The Endgame Collapse timer should begin as soon as all generators are completed, and it should initially last five minutes.
When a survivor opens an exit gate, the timer should be reduced to two minutes if more than two minutes remain. If less than two minutes remain, the timer should continue normally.
When the killer opens an exit gate, the timer should be reduced to one minute and thirty seconds if more time remains. If less than one minute and thirty seconds remain, the timer should continue normally.
Any perk that normally activates when an exit gate is opened should be disabled if the killer opens the gate.
The basekit Endurance duration after being unhooked should also be reduced from 15 seconds to five seconds during the endgame.
When only one survivor remains alive, that survivor should open exit gates 50% faster.
Downed Survivors
After 15 seconds, when only two survivors remain alive, they should be able to fully recover from the dying state without assistance. This would discourage killers from leaving both survivors slugged on the ground.
Hatch
When the hatch appears, every unopened chest on the map should close. The first chest opened after the hatch appears should contain a key.
Overall Goal
Overall, these changes would push both sides toward healthier gameplay. Killers would be rewarded for spreading hooks and remaining active around the map, while survivors would be rewarded for doing more than simply rushing generators.
The goal is not to make one side stronger by default. The goal is to make matches less repetitive and reduce situations in which one side loses too much pressure too early.
The goal is not to make one side stronger by default.
Could've damn well fooled me.
You're giving killers hooks that survivor need to respond to faster, but you're also reducing their ability to respond by reinstating hook-grabs. This is a double buff to camping, as it takes less time to camp and is harder to counter.
Then your hook-spread incentive is to kick survivors in the teeth for not dying and slapping them with gens that would take ONE-HUNDRED-AND-THIRTY-TWO seconds, along with a colossal regression buff. Ideal scenario is to tunnel one or two to death hook and tunnel them out the instant this kicks in so you get to tunnel and benefit from the 'you did not tunnel' award.
Then you also make it so that any survivor that's been injured six times becomes perma-broken. Pretty random buff, but okay.
Then you're also adding an extra timer to EGC, AND shortening the timer if the killer opens the gate, which I think can make it physically impossible to open a gate in time with certain strategies. (Trap + No Way Out + Remember Me. No Way Out might actually be able to do it by itself though.)
Then there's a random drive-by nerf to boons, which haven't seen relevance since CoH copped its umpteenth nerf.
And a nerf to unhook protection in end-game.
And in exchange, you offer the side that is currently weaker:
When there's only two survivors left and one is downed, that person can get up by themselves. (Basically means the killer is less likely to stall out a loss for survivors)
When the hatch spawns, survivors can get a key.
So there's multiple, huge swings in favour of the killers' winrate, but survivors' losses are made a little less annoying. How do you see this match with:
The goal is not to make one side stronger by default.
Because these two things do not rhyme, not even remotely.
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@coldflame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4098469#Comment_4098469
if you think the game should be changed then advocate for that, telling people to play the game as it exists badly on purpose to coddle your ego is embarassing
We have been. It keeps getting thrown out though, by people who want the default best way to play to stay that way.
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@coldflame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4098453#Comment_4098453
if a survivor makes themselves available as a target for 'hard tunnelling out of the game to the exclusion of all else', then failing to capitalise on that is throwing.
So then change the game around it so that trying to capitalise on that becomes the throwing part.
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IMO, perks like DS, Unbreakable, OTR, StB, all exist as stopgaps to killers' ability to shortcut a lot of games very quickly.
Complaining about these outright would basically be complaining that the obviously strongest strategies have a potential counter to them, which would make the complainant look silly and the complaint easily dismissible. And so, to make nerfcalls more palatable, the term 'second chance perk' was coined.
I see the term in a similar light as the complaints around Distortion, which initially fell on deaf ears because of course a major power creep in intel perks is going to make their counterperk popular. But then the 'how do you do, fellow survivors?' argument got invented around rat play, which BHVR took to, hook, line and sinker.
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@Domicci said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4096798#Comment_4096798
Okay let's say this again i think books are mid to weak if we add a limit to them they can be buffed with iut causing massive problems sense they have another lever to mess with in balance and it would add more skill expression to it knowing when to use them and not just placing it on the first Totem you see. Right now they feel pointless to cleanse as killer the only one that has an impact that I have ever noticed is the recovery one. The books could be a cool skill of survivors to learn when to properly use them for maximum value but right now ots basicly a place and forget most of the time.
They already have a lot of levers and they never use any of 'em. Adding more won't fix it until BHVR gets designers in place that don't opt for the path of least resistance all the time.
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OP asks a normal question regarding the statistics of ALL PLAYERS TOGETHER
Are they, though? Because we don't know what these stats are from.
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@Carnib9 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4096783#Comment_4096783
I already mentioned the point, which was that the closer you get to the top level, the more survivor-sided the game becomes. The average game is killer-sided in pubs because survivors are playing casually, often not trying to win (due to doing challenges and trolling), matchmaking is terrible, and etc, but if the survivors are high skilled and actually trying to win, the game is in their favour. I wouldn't call 90% of matches killer-sided, considering the kill rate is ~60% and that is heavily inflated by the aforementioned factors.
If the tournament structure is built to allow anyone to enter on days one and two, but only the winners from those days progress to the finals, wouldn't it show the exact opposite?
Because the finals would the logically be higher end play, and those skewed heavily towards killers.
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@Domicci said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4096794#Comment_4096794
im complaining abiut how they are designed. The perks go from mid to bad and adding a limit to how often you can place them would allow for them to be buffed with out making them broken its another thing the can adjust for balance and the more levers a core consept has the better it can be balanced.
I have absolutely zero faith that if boons became usable, we wouldn't immediately get avalanched with complaints about them until they're nerfed away into obscurity again.
If you can't handle boons now, you won't handle them when they're limited charges and actually effective.
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Are these just your killrates, or…?
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@not_Queef said:
Haven't seen it once, probably for the same reason that the "super OP and broken" Lucky Break is also hardly ever used: when being chased, your goal is to keep the killer busy for as long as possible. You generally don't want to lose the killer at all.
I disagree with this, though. If the killer commits to a chase, they'd normally get a hook state out of it, which progresses their objective. If you lose the killer mid-chase, they'll have lost time and pressure without progressing their own winstate. Even if the chase is shorter than normal, the killer gets absolutely nothing out of it, so I think that's strategically solid.
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@Shroompy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4092794#Comment_4092794
Guy, the perk revealed 2 random gens for 8 seconds at the start of the game. These 8 seconds included the camera pan.
Thats it.
Yeah, but doing -literally nothing- is not the lowest point in surv perk design. No Mither just defaults to a huge drawback, invocations are a net negative, and Calm Spirit's benefit is more niche than its drawback too.
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@Shroompy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4091980#Comment_4091980
Deja Vu only became meta in 2022 and Windows in 2021. Deja Vu's original effect was quite literally the worst perk in the entire games history, and Windows was no where near as strong since it had a much shorter range and a cooldown
Deja Vu's original effect was quite literally the worst perk in the entire games history
I don't think it won that competition against No Mither, and it certainly wouldn't hold up against things like Calm Spirit and Invocations now.
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@pidgeon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4092129#Comment_4092129
Atp ruin + surveillance gives you way more value which is why I was suggesting at the fact it could be buffed.
But you said CoB got 'gutted' with limited gen kicks, and that doesn't quite follow, IMO.
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@pidgeon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4091937#Comment_4091937
Typically with cob I myself would kick it then wait for someone to get back on it kick it again for it to continue to regress then start chase with nowhere to hide or smth. So I would run out of kicks relatively fast if survivors were good.
Well, that's still four uses of that tactic, which specifically runs counter to CoB, per gen. How's that not enough?
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@pidgeon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4091722#Comment_4091722
COB got gutted with limited gen kicks even if its at the previous value it will no longer be as strong as it used to
How do you figure that?
COB specifically requires a gen to be regressing for an extended period of time to gain value. You're not burning through the gen kick limit if you're getting COB value.
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@Chomperka said:
New knock out? So weak situational perk that is absolutely useless if you match against swf? Why does it need a nerf?
You mean 'extremely powerful perk in a situation the killer can easily manufacture, countered only and exclusively by swiffers'?
It's not as egregious as Knock-out, but that was hardly 'weak' or 'situational'.
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IMO, tunnelling, slugging and camping are lynchpins to a lot of balance issues, and they're kept in place by a very vocal segment of killer players.
I also think that said killer players created their own problem by using these tactics to boost their MMR above where they would otherwise fall, which leads them into 'but these tactics are necessary to win' traps.
There's ways to improve the game balance in favour of killer without feeling unreasonable or unfair for survivors, but they're very hard to implement so long as tunnelling, slugging and camping are still there, since most changes would be direct buffs to these problem playstyles.
On the survivor side, I think the only thing that can be considered problematic in a somewhat comparable style to the TSC unholy trinity is hook denial (Flashlight saves, pallet saves, wiggling), and I think that is something that should get nerfed. It'd also impact high MMR 4-stacks more than solo.
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@Brokenbones said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4084453#Comment_4084453
I think if they wanted to 'fix' babysitter, they could rework it to behave like 'No one Left Behind' where it doesn't give the survivor haste, it INCREASES their basekit haste by the % instead.
Maybe some would think that's too strong but that's how babysitter worked pre-diminishing returns so it can't have been too bad.
While that's true, it also risks making the system feel even more arbitrary, and it's already on thin ice.
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@Khastrx said:
Adding back BP bonuses isn't even an incentive anymore, the game literally throws BP at you so there really needs to something else to encourage going after unique survivors.
I think there's still a psychological benefit to having this hefty BP bonus for something other than winning. Losing feels less bad if you go out of the game with a few stacks, it's essentially giving you alternative 'win' conditions that don't involve making the other lose.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4083578#Comment_4083578
Alright, i tried. I'm gonna bow out. If you want to completely ignore the devs literally saying that its designed for anti-tunnel, then there is no way i can have any kind of meaningful discussion with you.
You wanna claim that 'aggressive use' falls outside its design, you'll have to do better than this, bud.
It is just a survivor perk, and if they ain't fixing it's 'unintended use' in seven years, it's fair to assume they don't consider it unintended anymore.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4083524#Comment_4083524
I probably shouldn't but i decided to humor you and did a quick google search. And i found many instances of the devs literally talking about how the perk is specifically designed to be an anti-tunnel perk. So i'll post them for you to see:
Question: What led to the decision to put the timer on Decisive Strike?
Horvath: We decided to put a timer on Decisive Strike as one of the solutions to Decisive Strike being used too often, we tried 2 minutes internally and found that players were able to use DS a long time after being unhooked, where it no longer serves the purpose to protect you from being tunneled/ farmed
- https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/48381/design-decisive-strike
Camping & Tunneling
On the Survivor side, there is a clear preference for perks that grant a second chance. Borrowed Time, Decisive Strike, Dead Hard, and perks of that nature help a Survivor avoid certain death, leading to an extreme usage rate.
One of Decisive Strike's main appeals is its efficacy at preventing tunneling. In light of the upcoming base game changes, we expect Decisive Strike to drop in usage slightly.
- https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/kb/articles/337-developer-update-june-2022
Specifically and multiple times here, the devs note that DS is very effective at preventing tunneling, and literally said that if the timer is too long than it would NO LONGER SERVE THE PURPOSE TO PROTECT YOU FROM BEING TUNNELED
You cannot possibly get more clear than that. It is obvious in both the way the perk is designed and the devs have explicitly stated on multiple occasions that it's purpose is to prevent you from being tunneled and designed as an anti-tunnel perk.
So at this point, are you willing to concede that the perk is an anti-tunnel perk?
One of Decisive Strike's main appeals is its efficacy at preventing tunneling.
This one doesn't say what you want it to.
Horvath: We decided to put a timer on Decisive Strike as one of the solutions to Decisive Strike being used too often, we tried 2 minutes internally and found that players were able to use DS a long time after being unhooked, where it
no longer serves the purpose to protect you from being tunneled/ farmedThis one comes closer, however, a perk having a specific function doesn't mean that that function is its only function.
Additionally…
We aren't talking about the first iteration of it are we?
That post is 7 years old and pertains to a DS that didn't deactivate upon conspicuous action.
And before you say 'well it shows their intent': Just like the intent of DS was changed after its release, it has gone through changes and iterations since, and there's no indication that their intent for DS is still the same.
Again, I ask you: If it's meant to be anti-tunnel, why does it only fire once? Surely, if it's an anti-tunnel perk, it'd work if the killer chases you off-hook twice in a row, right?
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4083358#Comment_4083358
We aren't talking about the first iteration of it are we? We are talking about the current version, which now you are deflecting trying to not actually answer my question because you can't. You know the current version is clearly designed for anti-tunnel.
What makes you think it's designed for anti-tunnel?
Your main complaint is that it functions outside the anti-tunnel constraint you set for it. You internalise this as some kind of design flaw, rather than the perk's design space being wider than what you give it credit for.
Additionally, if it was truly meant to be anti-tunnel, wouldn't it fire on -both- unhooks, rather than just one?
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4083278#Comment_4083278
So you're going to honestly tell me that you think the way the perk is currently designed it is not clearly and specifically designed to deal with getting tunneled? If you honestly think that it is designed to do something else, i have a bridge to sell you.
You're saying this right after complaining that the perk is not sticking to that exact design constraint.
Additionally, the very first iteration of DS had nothing to do with tunnelling at all.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4083067#Comment_4083067
I'm not saying they shouldn't do it. I'm saying they shouldn't be ABLE to do it. Its not meant to be used that way. Its designed specifically to stop being tunneled.
No, it's a survivor perk meant to confer a benefit to survivors. Nowhere in the perk does it specify that it's meant to be a purely anti-tunnel perk. That's something the community made of it.
If it was purely anti-tunnel, I'd be fine with it getting more tightly constrained to tunnelling scenarios, but it'd have to be basekit, too.
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@Domicci said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4081161#Comment_4081161
Its not a knee-jerk reaction when its exactly what would happen. You cant buff solo queue with out giga buffing swf's its just how its is. Swf's are the strongest role in the game and killers have to go into games thinking everyone is in a swf because if they dont they will lose to a swf sense generators pop so fast. During 2v8 i played multiple 1v4 survivor matchs with my friends and we would escape in under 6 minutes which is insane to me that the killer waited 10ish minutes to get 0 kills and a game shorter then his queue time. If we had base kit unbreakable/antislug we would have gotten out faster. Slugging is a needed strategy sense its a way for the killer ot apply pressure and alot of the time killers slug because survivors caused the senerio where they had to like crawling under a pallet and the killer knows someone around or the use ds super aggressive to let people escape and extend their chase for basicly free. But no any criticism towards survivors just means its us vs them because you can't actually make an argument so your using it to deflect.
Swf's are the strongest role in the game
High MMR swiffers don't crack a 50% escape rate, so no, they're not. Killer is the strongest role.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4080724#Comment_4080724
Just sharing my opinion.
I think people are majorly overreacting either way, though, at worst this is a disappointing teaser lol
Well, at worst, this is emblematic of how little BHVR needs to do to occupy their audience.
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@terumisan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4077510#Comment_4077510
the gen cannot go below 50 it will be locked if it's above it will regress until the gen is at 50
how i see the locked status working is it will treat a gen a 50% like it's at 0 or a gen that isn't regressing so any regression will not work on it so you won't get notifications and perks will not work on it unless the boon is snuffed
It is a nerf to surge and pain res because if you do not check the gen from the killers perspective it will look like that gen hasn't been worked on due to the locked status
Deadlock also is psudo affected by this since deadlock doesn't really counter gen rushing if survivors just leave the blocked gen alone and deadlock will also show a locked gen due to it being at 50 at least
the problem i have with this perk is it's too strong. a gen with these conditions waste so much of the killers time that you need to be a mobile killer and makes low tiers worse
the gen cannot go below 50 it will be locked if it's above it will regress until the gen is at 50
So I think you grossly misunderstood @SoGo 's suggestion.
They aren't saying the boon will lock a gen above 50% progress at 50%. That boon will lock in half of the generator's progress. Which means that a gen that's at 60% will only have 30% locked.
Which means that a gen will only lock to 50% if its total progress is… 100%. That means it'd only hit 50% lock if the generator was already completed, but got stopped at the very last charge and regressed allllll the way back down to 50%.
So the only way the situation you describe would arise is if the gen already lost 50% total progress and THEN got hit with more regression.
It is a nerf to surge and pain res
It's not a nerf, it's a counter. And since it's a survivor perk, it does eventually have to do -something- you will not like, it can't just be a dud and do nothing.
the problem i have with this perk is it's too strong. a gen with these conditions waste so much of the killers time
The chances of you actually losing regression or perk procs to this are incredibly low and it wastes a lot of survivor time due to the booning time invested.
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@terumisan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4077273#Comment_4077273
no it just requires it to be above 50% when it hits 50 it goes into locked status meaning you can't kick it and the gen acts identically perk wise as if the gen was at 0 so if it was at 50% and locked any remote gen regression wouldn't give a notification or proc regression perks
so it's a nerf to surge pain res and deadlock and if you're running deadlock with surge that would be the only way to actually know since deadlock would only proc on that specific gen meaning your still vulnerable to gen rushing since it's procing on that specific gen and the killer has to waste time walking to that specific gen searching and snuffing that boon then kicking the gen instead of pressuring the other gens that survivors are working on and if the killer does that the survivor will just replant the boon and more time is wasted for the killer
no it just requires it to be above 50% when it hits 50 it goes into locked status meaning you can't kick it and the gen acts identically perk wise as if the gen was at 0 so if it was at 50% and locked any remote gen regression wouldn't give a notification or proc regression perks
I'll be honest, I cannot follow what you are saying at all.
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@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4077368#Comment_4077368
Gaslighting again? Who said survivor with ds in locker is wasting my time as killer its logical, it was you who said survivor with locker is doing nothing for the team even when he has ds, short memory you have lately.
Yeah, he isn't doing anything for the team. If the killer decides to AFK outside that locker, that's the killer doing it, not the survivor.
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@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4077359#Comment_4077359
Still running from the topic arent we. The main why this happened is that you claimed that survivor in locker with ds does nothing for the team and I against that so ds now?
How do you know survivor who jumps into locker infront of you has ds?
You can guess it but theres not guarantee he has it, it can be bait and then when someone jumps into locker ifront the killer after unhook its either bait or most likely ds but thats on killer to decide if he commits or not because ds is not a wall its a choice of wanting someothing easy but risking having it hard because of perk.
I think we done here its clear you are kicking all around you with anything to provew some point but main thing was totaly something different.
No, the discussion was about 'aggressive use' of DS. What you're describing is you choosing to tunnel someone who has recently been unhooked, when any other target is free from DS.
It's you, as killer, that's making DS work here, because the perk itself is not usable. That survivor in the locker isn't wasting your time, -you- are.
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@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4077275#Comment_4077275
Again changing the topic arent we. Who said its bad that killer/survvior looses when they missplay, you kinda manipulating the topic but all I said its when survivor bothers killer he is doing something you claim otherwise which is bs becuase if you were right then being in long chase with killer is pointless but in reality it isnt. So theres where you version crumbles.
Except why is the killer focused on someone with active DS, again?