Firellius
Firellius
About
- Username
- Firellius
- Joined
- Visits
- 17,210
- Last Active
Comments
-
@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4076979#Comment_4076979
Doesnt matter whats it called, you have still some agency to effect the game the part its not nice for someone doesnt change the fact that survivor who has killers attention is still making huge gain for other 3. He may die but his play can change the game all you want to get here is the give up movement but thats on everyone to decide how will to face this.
You lack arguments to change the fact that having killer attention and taking his time is part of survivor gameplqy and huge part for getting something done by others. Tunneling or not few long chases can compleatly change the outcome of the game you just mainly focus on emotion part but this is pointless in grant scheme of things, thats why good teams even run one guy who has whole build to get killers attention and perks to deal with him like ds, deah hard, shoulder the burden and its very effective thats why even comp teams use this sacrifice strat.
So your problem here is that if killers massively misplay, they lose?
-
@terumisan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4077089#Comment_4077089
it removes up to 50% so whatever above gets regressed to 50 and doesn't dip under. if you use a perk like surge or pain res where you don't have to actively check the gen and pressure somewhere else they're kinda screwed especially since dbd is a time based game
This situation requires you to have already regressed the gen from 99% to 50% by other means before hitting it with another regression. Also, at this point, Pain Res likely -can't- hit it.
-
@ThatRyanB said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4077098#Comment_4077098
I appreciate the detail. I'll be passing feedback along to the team, so context like this helps characterize what folks are feeling.
Out of interest, if you had to point to one aspect of this perk that feels like it'd cause the most friction (i.e. extending the effect to other Survivors via boon; the time investment needed to get value; the speed compensation), what is it?
Found a succinct way to put it:
For the health of the perk, the -50% repair speed is the key problem.
For the health of the game, the fact that trolls can force it on other survivors is the key problem.
-
@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4077181#Comment_4077181
I've clarified my position. On paper, this perk could be made to be a mediocre benefit instead of an active detriment. That's not a great position for a perk to be in, but there's a far bigger problem than that.
No, because in the situation you describe, the -50% is still there, even if you, personally, choose to ignore it. The perk is still negatively impacting that build.
-
@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4077176#Comment_4077176
To quickly clarify before I disengage here:
"Normal repair speed" here isn't normal for any scenario without the perk, it's just one charge per second. You could achieve that by throwing two more survivors on the gen, or you could achieve it with a toolbox, or whatever else. At that point, yes, you offset the penalty to be repairing at normal speed.
What you're both doing is talking about whether that offsetting is WORTH it, and because you think it isn't, you're concluding I must think it is, even though I've said it probably won't be.My argument, remember, is that it isn't a detriment, not that it's better than doing any other repair speed builds. My position, because I don't like how hard we're drifting away from it, is this:
"The bigger problem with the perk is that it affects your teammates, because the downside can be offset by you if you really wanted to run the perk yourself."
My argument, remember, is that it isn't a
detriment-50% repair speed will never be 'not a detriment'.
The bigger problem with the perk is that it affects your teammates
That's a different problem, but not a bigger one. This perk would still land comfortably below No Mither if it wasn't a boon.
-
@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4077170#Comment_4077170
…So, alright, I promise this is a good faith question asked calmly, but:
If I'd phrased my rundown up there as "you're repairing at normal speed because of the toolbox", would you be objecting this hard? Because I don't like to accuse but it feels like you're maybe focusing too much on language choice and not the ideas being expressed.
Like, I never claimed the drawback doesn't exist. I laid out a scenario where you could make the perk work with its downside, because you've both offset the repair speed penalty and given yourself more skill checks. I'm making a value judgement based on how you'd use the perk, and just to be clear, my value judgement is "not good but there's a bigger problem than it not being good".
There's no disingenuous optimism here. I think the perk is probably gonna be pretty mediocre. I'm just making that assessment correctly by looking at how the perk would reasonably be used with the parameters we've been given, and I'm also pointing out the bigger problem in it screwing over solo queue teammates.
I laid out a scenario where you could make the perk work
withits downsideNo, you're not. You're burying it under a bunch of other perks and items in an effort to obfuscate the problem. You're not 'making the perk work' because in the scenarios you present, the perk is still not working. It's still massively slowing you down for no relevant benefit.
You are plucking the perk out of that situation and then judging that exact snapshot against a blanco situation. But that is not a fair assessment.
No matter how much +repair speed you throw at it, this perk is still slowing down you and your teammates by slapping on a -50% repair speed penalty.
There's no disingenuous optimism here. I think the perk is probably gonna be pretty mediocre.
Everyone else recognises this as a killer perk, as a sandbag perk, and then you come in pretending it's 'mediocre' because if you stack enough repair speed on it, you can pretend it doesn't slow you down.
The one thing I can give you is that if you judge the perk without that -50% repair speed penalty, it does scratch the underside of mediocre.
But it does have that penalty, so if you take 'barely mediocre' and slap -50% repair speed on it, what do you get?
-
@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4077163#Comment_4077163
I'm a little confused, I think you might be arguing against a position I don't hold here?
So, to be clear: Equipping both the perk and the toolbox provides a buff and debuff that cancel each other out. While you're repairing in that scenario, the end result is neither a buff nor a debuff to repair speed, it's neutral.
I'm not treating the +50% as part of Steadfast, I'm treating it as part of the combination I'm discussing.
I guess to be completely thorough, I wouldn't really argue that requiring a toolbox to offset the debuff is a good thing, but that's the scenario I was looking at in that section of my post.
I'm not treating the +50% as part of Steadfast, I'm treating it as part of the combination I'm discussing.
But the combination isn't part of the perk. In a value assessment of the perk, you don't judge it based on the performance of other things that aren't part of the perk, unless those other things are synergistic and result in a sum greater than its parts.
But that's not the case here. Sourcing 50% repair speed elsewhere does not reduce the drawback inherent to the perk, and it's disingenuous to try and be optimistic about it by declaring its drawback 'circumvented'.
-
@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4077158#Comment_4077158
What?
If you run the toolbox and the perk together, the buff and debuff cancel out, resetting you to neutral. You are no longer operating at under the normal repair speed. In this scenario, you've effectively circumvented the debuff. That's what I'm saying, I don't really know where you're coming from here.
For the rest, like I said, you have to compare the four setups to one another: Just the perk, just the toolbox, both together, and neither.
Obviously just the toolbox is best, but toolbox and perk is better than the other two scenarios. Is it worth going for? Eh. Probably not, the perk could probably use some buffs based on what we've seen.
As I said, my position is that the perk itself needs to be looked at in its reasonable use cases instead of in a vacuum, is mediocre in that evaluation, and has a far bigger problem than it just being mediocre.In this scenario, you've effectively circumvented the debuff.
You grab this perk, and something that gives you +50% repair speed: Are you now repairing at 150%?
No?
Then you didn't 'circumvent' it. You powered through it. The debuff is still there, still slowing you down. Your interpretation is treating the +50% as part of Steadfast, which it isn't.
-
@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4077142#Comment_4077142
It's not disingenuous at all.
There is a difference between a debuff that brings you below the baseline, and being prevented from exceeding the baseline.
We're talking about offsetting a penalty here, remember, so the question is: After the offset, are you below the baseline? If you aren't, you're not being debuffed, you have in fact successfully avoided the debuff.
Now, again, just so this doesn't go off the rails: My position is that I think people should be looking at this perk's reasonable use cases and making their critiques from that position, and as an extension of that, the bigger problem with the perk by FAR is that it can screw over your teammates (or you, if your teammates bring it), not that its use cases are just kinda niche and mediocre.
That IS still incredibly disingenuous, since, again, you're not comparing like with like. You want to source +50% repair speed elsewhere, fine, but you're still being debuffed by the perk.
You can't toss in other mechanics and then treat them as 'part of'. Add that 50%, and you have to compare to someone without the perk also having that +50%.
And if the perk is taking you from 150% to 100%, that is a debuff.
That's the point: there simply isn't a use case when the drawback is this extreme. There is virtually no situation that would not improve by removing this perk from it.
-
@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4077118#Comment_4077118
Aren't most % regression perks total now?
Pain Res, Surge, Eruption, Pop, and I'm pretty sure Turn Back The Clock are all total progression. At this point are there any perks left that do current?
The second point is more about the numbers, which I agree look undertuned.
As for the last part, no, your speed isn't debuffed, it just isn't increased. There is a meaningful difference between those two things.
With the perk as it is in this preview, would it just be better to use a toolbox on its own? Probably, but that's a different question to "are you actively worse off using the perk and toolbox together". Yes, compare to just a toolbox on its own, but then compare to the perk without the toolbox and to base repair speed without either.As for the last part, no, your speed isn't debuffed, it just isn't increased. There is a meaningful difference between those two things.
With the perk as it is in this preview, would it just be better to use a toolbox on its own? Probably, but that's a different question to "are you actively worse off using the perk and toolbox together". Yes, compare to just a toolbox on its own, but then compare to the perk without the toolbox and to base repair speed without either.
I wish I could downvote you multiple times for how unbelievably disingenuous this is. How are you going to refuse to compare like with like and then give it a value judgement?
-
@ThatRyanB said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4077098#Comment_4077098
I appreciate the detail. I'll be passing feedback along to the team, so context like this helps characterize what folks are feeling.
Out of interest, if you had to point to one aspect of this perk that feels like it'd cause the most friction (i.e. extending the effect to other Survivors via boon; the time investment needed to get value; the speed compensation), what is it?
The difficulty is that two of those elements go hand in hand.
I can say that the boon time is not the problem.
However, -50% repair speed is an absurd negative that killers would love to be able to inflict on survivors. That makes this perk an abject negative and renders it unusable, even if it was solely affecting the person that brought it.
Giving survivor a perk that can force this drawback on other survivors, though, is a disaster waiting to happen. You wouldn't create a perk that allows survivors to make other survivors exhausted, or broken, or blind, or any other number of status effects, so effectively removing another survivor's ability to do gens is unacceptable.
-
@ThatRyanB said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/466953/the-draft-for-boon-steadfast-sucks
Hey there! You mention not liking this perk from a values and conceptual POV. Would you be able to elaborate on what specifically you're not liking about it?
You have to spend a bunch of time booning, and then cut your gen repair speed in half. One percent extra progress on exclusively great skillchecks is never going to compete with that, no matter how permanent it is.
Not to mention that one player can force this terrible trade-off on others, because it's a 'boon'.
-
@terumisan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4077070#Comment_4077070
you didn't though. what i'm saying is if you bring surge or pain res and don't check that gen to see if the boon is near the gen (which wastes more of the killer's time) the survivors have a free gen at 50% also it indirectly hurts deadlock because it'll probably hit that gen first
The boon doesn't block ALL regression, just regression past a certain point. The only way that leaves the gen at 50% is if the gen was 100% done already. Pain Res would never kick off enough charges to hit that point.
-
@terumisan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/466947/grimoire-chapter-perks-revealed
so object for killer? dogwater since it has a range requirement
also if your a good looper you might as well run salvation's cry with we see you
i'm confused on how fruits of your labor work it would either be meta or worthless
i'm confused on how fruits of your labor work it would either be meta or worthless
If I'm reading it correctly...
When the first gen is done, you get 5% haste and heal 20% if you're injured.
When the second gen is done, you get 10% haste and heal 40% if you're injured.
Etc. etc.
-
@SoGo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4077035#Comment_4077035
Well, depends on how you look at it.
Locking down a gen that's on 80% progress, for instance, is really beneficial.
The reason I made this permanent/not permanent state for gen progress is simple: pure permanent progress is a nightmare to balance. Look at Fast Track and Weaving Spiders. One was broken beyond words, and the other has 3 severed downsides to offset the strength of perma-progress.
Locking down a gen that's on 80% progress, for instance, is really beneficial.
Not if the killer can just walk over, kick the boon, and then regress as normal, that's just a minor annoyance.
The reason I made this permanent/not permanent state for gen progress is simple: pure permanent progress is a nightmare to balance
Yeah, but if you're going to invent 'permanent but not actually' with such a trivial disable condition then what's even the point? You'd be better off doing something entirely new at that point.
-
@BongoBoys said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4077009#Comment_4077009
Yeah this is just a noncensual detriment like no joke this perk is 99% detriment and 1% benefit
That is, if you're lucky enough to even get skillchecks for that 1%.
-
@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4077037#Comment_4077037
Yeah, this is basically the cherry on top that the benefit you get from this Perk is pure RNG.
The only usecase I can see is to put the Boon on Gens which should not be repaired, lol.
Anti-3-gen perk in the sense you can block your teammates from clearing the wrong gen. Repressed Alliance in boon form.
-
If it's gonna be permanent progress except it's not permanent at all, that's not really worth a perk slot either, don't you think?
It should be:
Every great skillcheck converts an already completed charge to permanent. Repair speed penalty removed.
It'd be incredibly niche, but workable.
-
Will Shattered Hope be made available to survivors if Steadfast goes live?
-
Why are there four killer perks and only two survivor perks?
-
@Mrpugalug916 said:
Almost impossible with the second chance nonsense and handholding. Just played 2 games and both times with the killer meta btw, the gens flew by while I get 2 hooks and only chance of winning was to tunnel someone out. But wait DS. Then free endurance out the gate lol. This game is a joke as killer now. Why are you balancing the game for the worst players in the game instead of the actual knowledgeable players who dont give up the second something doesnt go their way. Thats who youre balancing the game around.
'Why balance for the worst players, instead of me, the highly competent, unflappable king of DBD who struggles to get two hooks?'
-
@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4076717#Comment_4076717
If survivor in locker has killers attention he is doing something for the team same if stealth based survivor is taking killers time by hiding.
Taking killers time is part of the teamplay and main jobs survivor can do which is something you miss here.
If survivor in locker has killers attention he is doing something for the team
Right, what do you call it when the killer's attention is focused on a freshly unhooked target, again?
-
@Leon_van_Straken said:
Hey guys its me again,
maybe you know me, since I try most of the time to write thought out responses or things I would change in some discussions.
Since I am a Survivor main which is scared to play Killer (stress anxiety) I try to go with open eyes on the problems of both sides.
But in the last time the upvote and downvote system was a spinter in my eye. Why do you ask? Well because of the following observation. If I write something which would help the Survivor side my Upvotes are much higher than my downvotes but if I write something Killer related my downvotes explode compared to the upvotes.
Let me give you an example:
One of my strongest Survivor sided thing I want to be implamented into this game is that DS should be usable on both hookstates so that hard tunneling gets a slap on the palm of the hand.
One of my strongest Killer sided thing I wanted to be implamented into this game (in the last days I was active) was to change Fast Track (away from getting tokens per hook to getting tokens for hooking the same survivor in a row), not because I thought this perk was OP but because I thought the perk is promoting unhealthy gamestyles as tunneling.
As you see both things I wrote here is with only thing in the mind, how tunneling "could" be attacked to be less attractive. (Do I think it would disappear? Unlikely… but it would be a step into the right direction)
Well my up and downvotes escalated in both casees. In the one I say to "buff" a Survivor perk I got tons of upvotes in the other case where I talk about a change to a Survivor perk to make tunneling less benefitial for Killer my downvotes went up and up.
Since I know that BHVR looks for statistics and the game is a 4v1 I hope that BHVR is aware of this problem. If people get "Shadow banned" because their posts are "recived" negative by 4 guys when only 1 guy approves than this forum will escalated into a real echo chamber where defending Killer becomes nearly impossible.
My personal problem is my own character. As it is normal for humans I like it when my Upvotes are higher than my downvotes but the only way I can archive this is by catering to the Survivor side because even the smallest and well thought out change which would benefit Killer gets nuked out of nowhere and that leads me away from giving my honest opinion on many topics.
Since I know that BHVR looks for statistics and the game is a 4v1
You have to remember that there's a self-selection bias on the forums, so the population here won't necessarily be 4-to-1 either.
Add to that that most players don't fit neatly in either role.
-
@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4076717#Comment_4076717
He is still staling the killer and forcing him into making big choice where it either slows him for few seconds but he leaves with nothing or takes his time in tens of seconds if you see this as nothing then its your blindness but I see every second took from killer by even one survivor gsin for team because when these seconds are added up they create huge sum which benefits team especialy here where he gets either slowed less but gsins absolutely nothing or proceeds to continue preasuring that survivor but risk tens of seconds wasted.
I Im allowed to tunnel because its intended play in this game and if you dont think so its like claiming bodyblocking as survivor is unintended, if it was unintended it would be dealt with as with to close camping or facecamping but sadly miss this. Your feeling are one thing but facts are the ones that are more important.
He is still staling the killer
No, you stalled yourself by going after someone with live DS in the first place! That's your fault for fulfilling the conditions required to make DS work.
Im allowed to tunnel because its intended play in this game and if you dont think so its like claiming bodyblocking as survivor is unintended, if it was unintended it would be dealt with
Right, everything's intended, until the exact moment it gets patched out. So up until last patch, FT was entirely intended, correct?
Even IF tunnelling is 'intended', it doesn't give you some inalienable right to negate survivor perks. You're not entitled to 100% lossless counterplay against perks.
-
@Slurp_Ramen said:
unfortunately it’s just the way the meta has been turning this year.
Why would killers ever hook when they are punished so hard for doing so, they have to waste time picking (trying to dodge either a flashy or pallet save [thanks pallet density}) carry to hook then walk all the while survivors are cranking gens while you slowly walk to where they might be at.
Obviously killers have pain res, pop, dms, turn back the clock, but any one of those perks is weak by itself and they’re only effective when stacked with each other in boring quad slowdown builds leaving no room for fun builds.
Killers gotta worry about , deli, ds, dead hard, shoulder the burden, fast track (pre and post rework don’t matter it still works on hook), self preservation, base kit bt, babysitter, we’ll make it, kindred/open handed, 70 sec hook timers.
So again why would they waste time hooking and deal with all that, instead of choosing an easier path in slugging where all you gotta worry about is, unbreakable, wglf, soul guard, mft, conviction.
Killers gotta worry about , deli, ds, dead hard, shoulder the burden, fast track (pre and post rework don’t matter it still works on hook), self preservation, base kit bt, babysitter, we’ll make it, kindred/open handed, 70 sec hook timers.
Then let's buff all these perks to have bonus effects against slugging.
That solves the problem, after all.
-
@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4076640#Comment_4076640
You can either go for grab or leave it but still doesnt change the fact its loose scenario where you give either free escape if you leave or you give survivor 20 meters head start from ds stun.
Your argument doesnt change the fact ds can be weponised and used agressively and theres another great perk that makes it even more usesbld in team play and its called shoulder the burden.
You can either go for grab or leave it but still doesnt change the fact its loose scenario
Except for the part where a survivor holing up in a locker isn't doing anything for their team. You're gaining, they're losing. You win by not pressing spacebar.
You're not entitled to negate DS just because you feel you should be allowed to tunnel.
-
@Slurp_Ramen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4076615#Comment_4076615
sigh you’re so lost.
Clearly you’ve never played against ds properly with the way you’ve been talking in your responses.
Let me break this down so you understand.You hook a person with DS multiple things can happen from here
-they deli and you can either go back and commit to them, they hop in a locker or vault a pallet forcing you to eat the ds or go for someone else
-someone farms them when you’re nearby so you tunnel and eat a ds
-someone farms them so you go for the rescuer but the guy with ds using it aggressively to take hits and body block for the rescuer so you down them and eat a ds
-same scenario as previous except you slug them because ‘you don’t have to pick them up’ and then they unbreakable while you’re chasing the unhooker and all you’re pressure is gone
-ds gets saved and you can’t find anyone else so you go back to hook catch them healing under hook go for the injured one, locker ds, or you leave them/wait them out which is a ton of wasted time.All of these are very likely scenarios to happen where there isn’t just a catch all solution. Yeah sure you could slug (unbreakable) and go for other people but you’ll lose in a battle of attrition because getting 4 man 12 hook games just arent as feasible as they used to be. Even if you play as nice as possible there’s always gonna be that comp nea/ace shoving themselves down your throat to try and completely obliterate your pressure.
But yeah I’m totally in the wrong, go advocate for your 10 sec ds and see how quickly the game would die off. Actually this kinda thing would never even make it past the ptb because killers with mobility/nurse would just keel over leaving only the exploitable M1 killers left.
they deli and you can either go back and commit to them, they hop in a locker or vault a pallet forcing you to eat the ds or go for someone else
Did you realise halfway through that this is you calling a DS use in the most clear-cut example of tunnelling 'aggressive use'?
someone farms them when you’re nearby so you tunnel and eat a ds
You tunnel, you eat the DS, where's the aggressive use here?
someone farms them so you go for the rescuer but the guy with ds using it aggressively to take hits and body block for the rescuer so you down them and eat a ds
So after you ate the anti-tunnel endurance, did you switch to tunnelling? And no, you don't eat the DS when you down someone. Just don't press spacebar like an absolute bot!
same scenario as previous except you slug them because ‘you don’t have to pick them up’ and then they unbreakable while you’re chasing the unhooker and all you’re pressure is gone
That's a single-use, two-perk combo spent on laying on the ground, wasting their own time as much as yours.
ds gets saved and you can’t find anyone else so you go back to hook catch them healing under hook go for the injured one, locker ds, or you leave them/wait them out which is a ton of wasted time.
If they're healing, either their DS is gone, or you found another survivor! That's on top of the ridiculous notion that because -you- can't find anyone, doubling back to hook and targeting a fresh unhook is somehow -not- tunnelling!
Clearly you’ve never played against ds properly with the way you’ve been talking in your responses.
I've lost to DS -once-, when I was a wee baby killer and fell for obvious bait. Every match since where someone tried to use DS aggressively resulted in a 4K.
It is not my problem that you've got an auto-pick-up script rolling, or that you can't find anyone, and it certainly isn't a problem if DS activates when you brazenly and openly
someone farms them when you’re nearby so you tunnel and eat a ds
Tunnel into it!
-
@terumisan said:
ds should be removed since killing is a killers objective
Killers should be removed since surviving is the survivors' objective.
-
@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4076638#Comment_4076638
I mean, sure, but there'd also be no point in doing it, that's functionally the same as it happening on the hook action. If the point of changing the activation condition is to make it less passive, it's always going to result in less activations.
But that's the logic they presented. It was too much for just equipping a perk, now it requires an unhook.
But they went above and beyond to put it in the grave.
-
@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4076597#Comment_4076597
Ehm, lockers still do exist.
I want you to do me a favour and spend at least 5 seconds thinking of what a killer could possibly do against a survivor with DS, sitting in a locker.
-
@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4076580#Comment_4076580
Yes, but that's the activation condition changing, which we already went over.
The point of changing the activation condition is to limit how frequently you can get tokens, it was always going to result in less permanent progress overall. My point is that them also nerfing the percentage isn't really relevant because that part doesn't move the needle at all, I honestly suspect they did it because 5% looks nicer than 6% in a description.
The point of changing the activation condition is to limit how frequently you can get tokens, it was always going to result in less permanent progress overall.
That's not true, it'd depend on the activation condition. If it happened when -anyone- gots an unhook, it'd still change the activation condition without crippling the effect value.
-
@Slurp_Ramen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4076604#Comment_4076604
fair enough cj inst normally use for grabs but it can be if you’re using ds aggressively to body block and takes hit for the rescuer.
All the other things still apply if like I said the person uses the ds aggressively (instead of running away using it to protect the teammate that farmed you in front of the killer)
Ds can, and absolutely gets used in aggressive manners to punish the killer for trying to go for someone else but the person with ds and basekit bt can just throw themselves at you and be an obstruction, they when they inevitably go down because they wanted your attention so bad they the killer get hits with ds at 53 secs, and everyone points and laughs because you clearly tunneled that guy.
All the other things still apply if like I said the person uses the ds aggressively (instead of running away using it to protect the teammate that farmed you in front of the killer)
No, because you can just slug 'em out, and then it benefits you more than them.
And how is someone going to bodyblock from inside a locker!?
-
@Slurp_Ramen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4076597#Comment_4076597
CJ tech, lockers, slow/medium vaults, wesker, dredge, and springtraps power.
CJ is not used for grabs, the rest require you to actively chase the target, which means it's being used defensively.
-
@Slurp_Ramen said:
10-40 secs stun that can be used aggressively just for daring to pick a killer with mobility?
Yeah no thanks
Even if this only applied to nurse that’s still far too harsh, 10 seconds is a god damn eternity.
DS can't be used aggressively since you cannot force a killer to pick up.
-
DS should be at least five seconds minimum in general, and OTR should just be pure information black-out instead of endurance.
-
@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4076522#Comment_4076522
Yeah, looking at each actual use of the perk is more important. Only one survivor per hook getting to benefit is also important, but not numerically, that's part of the activation trigger changing.
That's a very narrow view of it, since the amount of actual gen progress you get out of the perk is, in actual effect, heavily reduced. It's a bit of a weak argument to go 'well technically, the amount you get isn't reduced!' when in actuality, you're never going to get anywhere close to the same gen progress out of the perk because you're never going to be the one getting all the saves.
-
@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4076520#Comment_4076520
That doesn't really change anything, it still fits with what they said, but for the record I also don't really think a 1% nerf is worth including in the discussion. It doesn't affect any breakpoints for value in the perk or anything.
It happened, worth mentioning for thoroughness, but it doesn't impact the discussion any.
It's 1% on 6%, if you don't account for the stacking exclusion. With that, it's 13%.
-
@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4076506#Comment_4076506
It's not really benefit of the doubt, it's just there not being any reason to think the thing being suggested here. Benefit of the doubt would imply there's something to doubt.
As for the rest of that, I don't disagree the decision made wasn't ideal, but we're not analysing if the decision was good, we're analysing if it matches the reasoning given, which it does.
Like I said up above, if the problem is a combination of the effect and the activation not matching, you would logically fix that by changing one of those variables. They chose one, some would've preferred choosing the other.My personal opinion on the perk is a little outside of the point being made here, but for the record, I don't mind changing the perk's activation because the prior version both wasn't very good and was difficult to safely buff, but I think this new version is too weak. I'm cooking up my own post for how to fix it, though, so I won't stray too off topic here.
They chose one, some would've preferred choosing the other.
They didn't choose one, they did both at the same time.
-
@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4076499#Comment_4076499
Regardless of Distortion, that's plainly not what happened with Fast Track.
BHVR gave their reasoning for Fast Track and, whether you agree or not, it is internally consistent and logical. It's not nonsense, they identified a thing that is true of the perk that wasn't in line with how other tools work.
Which means accusing them of lying about it requires some pretty hefty evidence, due to their stated reasoning looking above board.
Not really. Again, there's their track record. This isn't some court of law, they either have the benefit of the doubt, or they don't.
But beyond that, if, as stated, it was simply that the effect was too powerful for simply equipping the perk, why go to all the trouble of completely rewiring it on top of nerfing the effect?
When 3% wasn't a problem, but 6% is, if the issue is the value balance, would you:
A) Adjust the value from 6% to 4 or 5%
or
B) Nerf the value to 5% on top of adding an activation condition that makes the perk thoroughly unreliable and also removes the possibility for it to stack between survivors in a way that makes it even more unreliable
One of these is consistent with 'it just gave too much value' while the other perfectly lines up with the nerf call's excuse.
-
@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4076489#Comment_4076489
Could you not just as easily interpret that as them being wrong about Distortion…?
Also, I may be misremembering but I'm pretty sure BHVR's stated reasoning for Distortion was just that it made it too easy to hide from auras, not that it specifically enabled useless teammates never engaging with the objective.
Could you not just as easily interpret that as them being wrong about Distortion…?
Sure, but the reason they're wrong ties into the same issue we're facing here.
Distortion becomes the FOTM nerf call, just calling it unfair doesn't work, since we're hot off a pretty hefty power creep on aura reading which gave rise to Distortion. Back-up plan: 'think of the
childrensurvivors!'-appeal by blaming rat behaviour.Argument is nonsense, since Distortion makes rats less of a problem, but the complaint is copied, verbatim, and the perk is taken out back.
Fast Track follows a similar pattern. FOTM nerf call shopping for an excuse, excuse is nonsense, BHVR takes it down anyway, perk is taken out back.
-
@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4076476#Comment_4076476
While I agree calling this a sidegrade definitely isn't accurate, the rest of their communication has been pretty above board.
Their stated reasoning both scans logically and matches the change they made, which are the two most important parts, and also matches how other related perks are balanced as well. Whether you like the change or not - I think it's lacklustre , personally - isn't really relevant there.
Is there any evidence they lied about Distortion?
Is there any evidence they lied about Distortion?
The stated reason about 'rat play' doesn't work with Distortion, as Distortion only allowed rats to help the team while playing safe. It didn't enable ratting since lockers still exist.
-
@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4076474#Comment_4076474
At that point you're just accusing them of lying, though, and I think that needs a bit more evidence.
Does it? They've a track record. Even this change they lied about, as it was supposed to be a sidegrade. And they've lied about their reason before, as they did with Distortion.
-
@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4076423#Comment_4076423
At that point, aren't you more disagreeing with the decision more than the mindset or reasoning?
If the issue is the combination of activation and effect, then logically it follows the two ways of addressing that are to change one of those two things. BHVR chose to change the activation over the effect, but there's no reason that's inherently worse or wrong.
It doesn't indicate anything about BHVR's mindset or biases that they chose the one solution over the other, it's just personal preference at that point, surely?https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4076403#Comment_4076403
I think it's worth pointing out that BHVR didn't copy the common complaints about Fast Track, since they didn't bring up anything about punishing killers for doing their objective or encouraging slugging/tunnelling.
I think it's worth pointing out that BHVR
didn'tcopy the common complaints about Fast Track, since they didn't bring up anything about punishing killers for doing their objective or encouraging slugging/tunnelling.
What they bring up isn't necessarily what they act on.
-
@TWiXT said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4076420#Comment_4076420
Well Invocations are supposed to be high risk high reward, so yeah, but if your team has a Rat problem, then it works as intended. 😋
Not really, it just adds another rat.
-
@Elan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4076306#Comment_4076306
Indeed, appreaciate the open mind. Obviously not every perk mentioned is sorted in the same category. Let's dive into exhaustion and other perks tied to it. It's clear that those perks make you very hard to catch with no mobility killers while high mobility killers have no issue with that. Which already pinpoint that weaker side shouldn't be disentivized to play because of spamming exhaustion perks. That's reasonable. A lot of second chances perks noted above have high impact on the outcome of the game with again punishing mostly those with lack of pressure built in their kit. Making those perks activatable would link them more into other options that require some set up as well as decrease it's versatility with no requirements. I went maybe a bit too hard on deli, might be enough to take two tokens instead. So overall idea is to keep the perk truly a menace while also limiting their free usage or make it's secondary effect a little bit more reasonable. As I said I'm fine with people not willing to discuss but at the same point leaving just "good lord" or "no ty" isn't anything leading to deeper conversation is it… if anything is not fully clear just ask…
How do your suggestions address the problems pointed out, exactly?
-
@TWiXT said:
Invocation: Revealing Rodents
Upon completing invocation Revealing Rodents
Rats continuously chase the Survivor that has done the least Repair, Healing, and Rescue actions, or has been Chased the least.
When that survivor is in the killers Terror Radius, Rats lead the killer to their location.
Every time the killer chases this survivor, the rest of the survivors get a 10% Bonus to healing and Repair speeds. If that survivor is killed or sacrificed, this bonus becomes permanent for the remainder of the trial.
Funniest part is that this would likely target the one doing the invocation.
-
@100PercentBPMain said:
the concept itself is fine; it's just that all the Invocations could be problematic if buffed too much.
all I've ever wanted from treacherous crows is to remove the terror radius requirement then y'all will be dreading them birds as we enter pre run city
The concept itself is the reason it's dead, actually.
A perk that requires a survivor to spend a whole minute in one of the worst locations for them to be in, on top of requiring them to give up a whole healthstate, permanently, would need a colossal pay-off on the other side to be worth it.
And any survivor perk that gets remarkable pay-off is going to be the subject of complaints.
So these perks are by definition extremely underpowered, because balancing them properly would make them feel OP for the killer to face.
Invocations are therefor an unworkable concept and will always result in 'killer perks' where the benefit does not even match the cost. And remember, for perks, the benefits are supposed to exceed the cost.
-
@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4076373#Comment_4076373
I know I'm repeating myself here, but it's not JUST the activation requirement they're talking about here. It's the activation requirement FOR THAT EFFECT.
There are not just similar perks on the killer side, there are similar survivor perks too. I gave a list a little further back - Kindred, Do No Harm, Low Profile, Desperate Measures, and Self Preservation all have close enough to the same activation requirement to be compared in this context, and none of those seem to be on the chopping block.
Similarly, there are survivor perks which have the same EFFECT, and they all require more from the player: Specialist requires chest searching and Weaving Spiders requires doing an Invocation.I obviously can't speak for BHVR's internal conversations but what they've said to us is fairly logically consistent. Fast Track gave permanent generator progress, and required nothing but the opponent to be playing the game for it. Other perks that give permanent progress require more, and other perks that require just the opponent playing the game give less, or at least less direct benefits.
That's why it wasn't just nerfed. They're talking about the effect and activation combined.Other perks that give permanent progress require more, and other perks that require just the opponent playing the game give less, or at least less direct benefits.
That doesn't go for Rancor, though, which permanently auto-completes up to two hookstates for the obsession and is done by survivors completing their objective.
Again, the much more likely explanation is that they just copied the complaint verbatim, put no thought into it, and just nerfhammered as demanded.
-
@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4076202#Comment_4076202
So its stupid to use this
I see your logic but you comparing car vs bike here (in terms of exsample both speed up your travel speed from just walking or running), thats how accurate your exsample is here.when comparing prenerfed fast track to coup degre or mostly fire up, which are arguments people make here a lot and it has only one thing simular to fast track and thats how the perks power is obtained but in terms of power crep these two are nowhere near.
Sorry but pernament gen progress is very strong thing that isnt wise to just throw around like devs did on prenerfed fast track especialy when BNP is 10% or sables perk does same, on all gens but same % number but 18% like thats different especialy when its so easily aquireable and every survivor can run this.
Other part is many acknowledge (even when some people said this since 2020 I believe or 22 trutalent said this before he was kicked from fog whisperer program) over time that spreading hooks is way they want to killers objective go instead of tunneling or slugging but this perk is gutting this playstyle and pushes others into play like tunneling isnt so friendly nowdays because theres lot of perks to make it way harder so builds like this came into light
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuhrKMdGF68&t=625s
so deffinitely good perk desing indeed. One thing is requirement for unlocking perks effect, other is the power of its effect (the main one obviously) so even when some perks are quite passively unlocked like fire up their power is mid at best and they arent problematic but gen speed is problematic thing by itself which anyone whos been around for few years should know that and messing with it isnt good idea, same with gen regression but that has been nerfed quite lot past years and mayn strong perks that did damage to gens from total base progress meaning 15% form 90 seconds were switched to current gen progress.
Other part is many acknowledge (even when some people said this since 2020 I believe or 22 trutalent said this before he was kicked from fog whisperer program) over time that spreading hooks is way they want to killers objective go instead of tunneling or slugging but this perk is gutting this playstyle and pushes others into play like tunneling isnt so friendly nowdays because theres lot of perks to make it way harder so builds like this came into light
Two things:
- Why is the first and only solution to this problem -always- a survivor nerf? If they wanted this perk to not incentivize slugging, give it bonuses if a teammate is slugged. If they wanted this perk to not incentivize tunnelling, make it stack twice as fast if another survivor is dead. But the solution is always to dumpster the survivors.
- If they -really- gave a damn about tunnelling/slugging, they wouldn't have thrown in the towel on these issues with last year's updates. You can't pick-and-choose whether or not these playstyles are issues based on if it benefits the killers to think of them as such. People tunnelling and slugging is hammered down as being absolutely not an issue when it comes to nerfing killers, but it's critical priority when it comes to nerfing survivors. Like @ArcT says, it's just an FOTM nerf-call shopping around for an excuse. Just like the Distortion nerf.
-
@sonata93 said:
survivor perks be like…
Cleanse/bless a totem, rummage a chest, repair a generator, and fully heal a teammate.
The next time you’re within 20m of the killer and a teammate becomes exhausted, you gain haste for 3 seconds.Doesn't even require you to be on death hook? OP, plz killswitch.