Firellius
Firellius
About
- Username
- Firellius
- Joined
- Visits
- 17,210
- Last Active
Comments
-
@OmegaXII said:
Because Fast Track PERMANENTLY speeds up Survivor's Objective by doing NOTHING.
This is a serious problem because the faster the Gens, the higher the chance you escape. So bring Fast Track = More Escape.
All those perks you mentioned do not speed up your progress to win the game, that's why they're fine.
PS: Seriously, I can't imagine anyone with decent hours actually defend Fast Track.
All those perks you mentioned do not speed up your progress to win the game, that's why they're fine.
???
Did they stealth rework all of them?
How does skipping hook stages not speed up the killer's progress? How does cutting search-time not speed up killer progress? How does shortening chase time not speed up killer progress?
-
@100PercentBPMain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4075436#Comment_4075436
well I'm on console not boosting the nightlight stats but I promise you I'd single handedly turn treacherous crows from the 2nd least picked perk to the 3rd.
- Cenobite profile pic
- Perk build of a masochistic madlad
Checks out!
-
@Rickprado said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4075062#Comment_4075062
If at least one people haven't been hooked but you are spreading hooks among the other 3 survivors the survivor with no hooks can StB one of the in death hook, leaving 2 survivors in their second stage. This happens frequently, even when hard tunnel is not on play.
Its not uncommon to be hit by StB when you are not tunneling but alternating hooks between two or even three people. Of course, if you are going for 12 hooks you probably won't be affect by StB, but if you can 12 hook and still win, probably Shoulder the Burden won't be an issue either way.
Right, so a perk that can be used three times against a tunneler, but only once against someone spreading hooks, if even that, is clearly punishing the hook-spreader more than the tunneller.
???
-
I'm surprised any invocation escaped containment, given the whole concept is a killer perk that somehow wound up on the wrong side of the aisle.
-
@Rickprado said:
Ironically , hooking in the current meta feels the wrong choice. Playing """"""correctly""""""""" (alternating hooking on the survivors) feels less and less the correct choice.
At least they will adress fast track soon. Hope they address toolboxes soon too, giving weaker killers more room to breath and play casually.
PS: Shoulder the Burden is an ABERRATION OF A PERK and shouldn't exist too. It punishes much more a killer who is alternating hooks among survivor than a killer who is hard tunneling.
PS: Shoulder the Burden is an ABERRATION OF A PERK and shouldn't exist too. It punishes much more a killer who is alternating hooks among survivor than a killer who is hard tunneling.
It literally doesn't. It's effectively unusable by anyone with one hookstate, and it's not worth using on anyone with fewer than two. If you spread your hooks, StB does nothing but give you free exposed.
-
@Rick1998 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4074944#Comment_4074944
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/RQHU2KT3N8TB/img-0525.png
this is literally my matches from the last two weeks . Over 70% escape rate . Survivor with a team of good players is literally free wins majority of matches . They are balancing around solo queue which i agree is bad to play because the average survivor does not care to learn the game .the few times we lost was because of a new player joining discord and it is very clear when your team has a weak link . The moment you play with a team that is good this game becomes trivial at the balance team aparently doesn't care . Any survivor whinning about tunnleing and slugging would never have survived 2016/2020 era dbd 😂
And? There's folks with over 75% killrate over a hundred matches on every killer.
This incessant dismissal goes both ways. Much like you can disregard high killrates beacuse 'survs bad', you can disregard high escape rates because 'killers bad'.
-
@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4074913#Comment_4074913
It goes both ways. Bad survivors ALSO inflate kill rates and there are way more bad survivors than there are good ones if we REALLY want to use statistics as an example if only ~18% of the community is high mmr from BHVRs own words then it would make sense why killers have higher kill rates when those survivors aren't that good. Of course, there's a lot more nuance than that but that's what I see when people say "but the statistics" it just makes them look REALLY ignorant.
Right, it goes both ways, but we'll conveniently ignore that and claim it's a one-sided issue if it means we can dismiss stats that show the game favours the killer.
-
@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4074881#Comment_4074881
Statistics aren't a one all conclusion to the state of a character. They are nothing more than a reason to look at said character. Tell me do these stats in Broad MMR really say "Dredge, Sadako and Pinhead are these top tier killers?" Vecna 1 and MAYBE Freddy if you really stretched it but, in most cases, its the HARDCORE mains that are doing that well along with a majority of people not understanding the counterplay or are just bad. When you get survivors that know how to play against said killers you see quickly how they just fall. At least with high mmr you could make a reasonable argument for all of those having that high of kill rates as those are undeniably strong killers.
Idk about you but I like to go into why a killer is strong and not look at "muh statistics" only.Statistics aren't a one all conclusion to the state of a character. They are nothing more than a reason to look at said character. Tell me do these stats in Broad MMR really say "Dredge, Sadako and Pinhead are these top tier killers?" Vecna 1 and MAYBE Freddy if you really stretched it but, in most cases, its the HARDCORE mains that are doing that well
Ah, I see, so you're saying most killers have worse players dragging down their killrates!
So the game is actually skewed further in the killers' favour than what the stats show, they're just dragged down by bad killer players!
-
@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4074879#Comment_4074879
So do you have anything to refute what I said or are you going to stick with the sarcasm.
My guy, there is literally nothing to refute. You posted nothing but a personal opinion that goes against all statistics and then proclaimed it undeniable fact.
-
@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4074872#Comment_4074872
Well yeah because survivor right now is really strong. Just because the player base isn't that good doesn't deny the state of it. We're unironically getting to the point where the base kit perks and maps are coming back to make even bad players get chances near to winning against someone physically better than them but since they chose a slightly weak killer they get to that point.
Well yeah because survivor right now is really strong. Just because the player base isn't that good doesn't deny the state of it.
'My guesstimations trump all statistics!'
-
@Nazzzak said:
BHVR said after their failed update last year that they aren't going to address tunnelling and slugging within the game any further, which is acknowledgement that those strats are here to stay and be used freely. If the playerbase wants the freedom to play as they choose, then that needs to go for everyone. If survivors want to gen rush then they should be free to, just as the killer is free to slug in response. This game has always been a matter of give and take. You ask if this is how we want the game to be played, and the answer (based on the massive response to the anti-update last year) is a resounding yes. This is the game players want. Viable strategies and the freedom to use them at will.
BHVR said after their failed update last year that they aren't going to address tunnelling and slugging within the game any further
Do you have a source for this, by any chance? I don't recall this.
-
@coldflame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4074860#Comment_4074860
if slugging 'shouldn't exist' then you have a problem with the game not the player.
How about both?
If there's an exploit in the game, clearly that's a problem with the game. But it's also a problem with those who abuse the exploit at everyone else's detriment.
@coldflame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4074864#Comment_4074864
no survivor strategy has ever been held to this standard
Map offerings. Pretty much any survivor perk, too.
-
@Brimp said:
Hope that diminishing returns goes live so we can actually have strong off-meta perks.
Wouldn't be surprised if it's going to be years before anything is done to further on the concept they pitched with diminishing returns.
-
They should bring back the BP bonus side missions of WGLF and BBQ as basekit elements, to help steer the game towards a healthier and more rewarding gameplay.
-
@Starrseed said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4073442#Comment_4073442
I think my big problem in general is just that defensive perks will absolutely be used offensively if they are strong.
I am a killer only player and I kinda pride myself on the fact that I dont tunnel, camp or slug with very obvious exceptions like, I won't let you do my hex just cause you came from the hook, I won't just go away from the hook when I see Leon and Dwight "sneaking" towards it etc. but I don't think that is the tunneling or camping that is actually a problem.
And when I get hit by perks that are ment to be a defense against extrem tunnelers or campers it sucks. Sure I get pressure when I slug them but those situations go like this: I need two hits to get rid of the guy that wants to block me and then I can't pick him up but when I slug him he will also be up in no time cause he probably has unbreakable or a guy with a heal perk is not far away. And the guy I wanted to chase is definitely gone and I got a little pressure for not advancing my objective while two people were doing gens.
Thats why I would rather see bhvr go for more stealth for the unhooked while the unhooker gets the heat with aura reading plus other incentives to go for unique hooks then them just making stronger anti tunnel perks
I think my big problem in general is just that defensive perks will absolutely be used offensively if they are strong.
But that's the thing: DS cannot effectively be used for that. As long as the killer doesn't pick you up, you severely hinder your own team by going down for a single bodyblock and spending however long slugged out.
I've only had DS used offensively against me once, and it was my own fault. I never fell for it again and any further attempts to use it resulted in a 4K.
That's why DS is such a strong solution.
Thats why I would rather see bhvr go for more stealth for the unhooked while the unhooker gets the heat with aura reading plus other incentives to go for unique hooks then them just making stronger anti tunnel perks
The problem with that is that the game is already extremely heavily tilted in the killers' favour and giving them yet more buffs is going to render the game unplayable for survivors.
@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4073442#Comment_4073442
Oh that's right, that was in the same patch, I forgot about that.
Kinda misleading though, it's not like the OTR nerf affected its performance for anti-tunnel specifically.
Did it not? If a killer tunnels you off hook but you put on a good chase and he hits you 31 seconds after you get unhooked, is that not a nerf to OTR's function? If the timer was paused during chase, that'd be fine, but it isn't.
-
@Starrseed said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4073393#Comment_4073393
I mean I named two things they could still do but we have to accept that tunneling will always exist.
And you are right old ds did a good job at discouraging tunneling but because it was very strong it was also very good to use when the killer doesn't tunnel.
Essentially if anti tunnel perks are very strong you have the perfect perk for every situation. When the killer tunnels it does it's job and if the killer doesn't tunnel you force him to do it.
If we want stronger anti tunnel perks we need bhvr to find a way to make the game recognise that the unhooked survivor does not try to escape but to body block the killer.
Bhvr needs to work with positive reinforcement and give killers who don't tunnel something nice, that could reduce tunneling but people that want to tunnel will always tunnel and there is no stopping that
I mean I named two things they could still do but we have to accept that tunneling will always exist.
Sure, it'll exist, in that it will likely always be an option.
It just shouldn't always be the categorically best option, and there's ways to limit scenarios in which that is the case. It'd also help if we'd look at the problem without immediately leaning towards nerfing the survivor side.
And you are right old ds did a good job at discouraging tunneling but because it was very strong it was also very good to use when the killer doesn't tunnel.
It wasn't. DS cannot be activated by the survivor and the killer, when someone tries to DS-bait, can simply leave the survivor slugged out on the ground. That'll slow the survivors down more.
The only problem now is that OTR permits you to take another extra hit, which can be fixed by changing OTR to an info black-out perk. Then DS goes back to 5 seconds, or X seconds basekit with Y seconds added with the perk, and you'd have a meaningful deterrent to tunnelling.
@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4073393#Comment_4073393
Out of curiosity, what are you referring to when you say that all we got from the anti-tunnel PTBs was a nerf to anti-tunnel?
The basekit duration for Haste and Endurance went up, that's a buff, no?
Out of curiosity, what are you referring to when you say that all we got from the anti-tunnel PTBs was a nerf to anti-tunnel?
The basekit duration for Haste and Endurance went up, that's a buff, no?
Oh, true, +5 seconds to basekit Borrowed Time.
And then -50% duration to OTR.
-
@Starrseed said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4073183#Comment_4073183
The thing about tunneling and it getting fixed is that it's just not easy.
Bhvr and a big part of the community acknowledged the fact that tunneling is a problem but there is not much they can do.
They gave the survivors perks to help with tunneling and they gave the survivors a basekit defense to help them but that's about it. You can't really do much more to help with tunneling because in its core tunneling is the killer doing their objective.
You can't just not allow the killer to do their objective meaning you can't make it so the killer can not tunnel a survivor, you can only make it harder and there is not much more they can do to make it harder.
The only things they could still do is give the unhooked survivor a bit of elusive and force the unhooker to take the heat by traveling his aura and they could work with buffs for going for unique hooks, but that's it I think. There is not much more you can do since more defensive tools would mean more tools that also get used offensive whenever a killer does not tunnel and that stuff bhvr already tried with punishing the killer for tunneling was bs cause that also got used offensive.
This defeatist talk is just another strategy to keep the needle from moving.
It's nonsense that there's nothing they can do. We know that killers were less eager to tunnel when they were very likely to be hit in the face with a 5 second stun from DS, so why is that not back?
We got two attempts, the second completely half-hearted, and the only thing that rolled out of it was a nerf to anti-tunnel because the ones in charge of the anti-tunnel design are the tunnellers.
-
@TicTac said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4073183#Comment_4073183
- Only if you see stealth as an option to never be found. You still forcing the killer to kick the gen. Its the same like beginner wirh bamboozle. They are so predictable that i get a headstart to the other side of the map. The value depends on the killer traversal speed.
- Yes, time is the currency. It highly depends on the chase time. If its short, the hiding time is more valuable. Thats why stealth against a nurse is more important. But thats only a problem with "bad" stealth. Sometimes its the right play to take the risk, but mostly you shouldnt risk getting caught of position for stealth. Lets say you circumvent it with SB and you are a good looper. You get the time for stealth + normal chase time. So the killer spends a lot of time until he gets to hook you. Should that be the normal benchmark? Old stealth kinda only was fine bc the majority of people didnt do it or they couldnt do the chase part. Kinda interesting question: would you use no mither if it blocks all aura read and trade your chase against stealth?
- There are good times. I use stealth all the time. For example if the killer hooks near me and i should go for the unhook. You can even "test" for aura perks with "safer" stealth near a pallet and then go for riskier stealth afterwards.
- Yes, if he keeps doing it. Would work with a full stealth team. But most killer just abandon the search and chase the other three. It also happens with good loopers, but they can atleast do the gen in the killers face and dont waste time hiding if he comes close.
- Then it would be still only 1/4 to stop every aura perk. Its already a tie if the killer only chooses one aura perk. 1/4 and killer need to fear that a complete perk category is useless. And even one player could use it to call out every aura perk.
- It would be great if tunneling gets fixed. Im just saying as someone who doesnt want to tunnel if i play killer, i got forced to tunnel bc of hiding teammates.
Only if you see stealth as an option to never be found.
There is a wide chasm between 'never being found' and 'The killer will -always- find you'. It is ridiculous to set the standard to either extreme. If you get found through the killer's own ability to search, that's fine, it happens, but it was at least a contest of skill. If you're lit up like a christmas tree every 5 seconds, that's just the game deleting stealth.
Yes, time is the currency. It highly depends on the chase time. If its short, the hiding time is more valuable.
No, time is time. Someone occupying the killer for 30 seconds by hiding is just as valuable as someone occupying the killer with a 30 second chase.
Old stealth kinda only was fine bc the majority of people didnt do it or they couldnt do the chase part.
Old stealth was completely fine in general and only stopped being fine once killers were no longer required to search for survivors themselves. Then that became the standard.
Kinda interesting question: would you use no mither if it blocks all aura read and trade your chase against stealth?
It'd at least make the perk interesting, but I have a question in turn: Why do you suggest here that a sufficiently skilled survivor should not be permitted to use both stealth and chase?
Yes, if he keeps doing it. Would work with a full stealth team. But most killer just abandon the search and chase the other three. It also happens with good loopers, but they can atleast do the gen in the killers face and dont waste time hiding if he comes close.
He has to keep doing it, otherwise that survivor is going to be uncontested on gens.
Then it would be still only 1/4 to stop every aura perk. Its already a tie if the killer only chooses one aura perk. 1/4 and killer need to fear that a complete perk category is useless. And even one player could use it to call out every aura perk.
That's the standard risk of stacking perks. It's the same as bringing Botany + Desperate Measures + Empathic Connection and going up against Plague.
You put all your eggs in one basket, sometimes you get good results, sometimes you don't.
It would be great if tunneling gets fixed. Im just saying as someone who doesnt want to tunnel if i play killer, i got forced to tunnel bc of hiding teammates.
You're never 'forced' to tunnel. This idea that a hiding survivor means you -must- go for someone else is another consequence of aura reading escalation. Survivors hiding wasn't a problem before aura reading got out of control, but now that killers get used to being given survivors' exact locations, suddenly looking for survivors yourself is too much of an ask.
-
@TicTac said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4072427#Comment_4072427
Its not a total shutdown. But yes, it makes stealth in a specific situation almost useless. Its a common situation, but otherwise it would be not worth bringing. Like with darkness revealed for example you get barely results on most maps.
The killer uses on perk slot to weaken one of the survivor skills. Like chase perks weaken loops or regression perks the ability to progress gens.
The value is that he spend less time searching. But that wont win them the game (except its a nurse and they play outside of the dbd rules). But it wont help finding the reset in a no gen area, someone stealthing for unhook or even the hiding two-hook-target if hes not near a gen.
Those perks remove the simple part of stealthing. Now you need to decide if its a good time to stealth and you need to trade your location for progressing a gen.
But why did they make stealth so situational? It was hardly a meta choice, maybe in the Blendette-era. If someone only wants to loop, why cant someone only stealth? Being able to stealth 100% has many problems and maybe you disagree with me on that:
- Not taking aggro. Even if you progress gens, the risk of losing a teammate early is greatly increased if only three survivor get chased
- Killer wasting time searching. If its too much, its far easier to stay on the obvious location: the hooked survivor. Thats why tunneling killer dont bother with NtH, its pointless for their playstyle.
- The value of perks. The killer has only 4 slots. Having one perk hard-countering it, is a bit much. You could mix it with perks like self preservation, but suddenly you need to sacrifice more perk slots. And it is/was always a gamble. Both sides dont know what the other side will bring and if they get value of their perk build.
- Not wanted gameflow. Its highly subjective (or the devs have data to back it up), but the decision was that the catch-game is more interesting than hide-and-seek.
The killer uses on perk slot to weaken one of the survivor skills.
'Weaken' is an understatement for this perk. Chase perks don't instantly end chases. Regression perks don't set a gen to 0. NTH just completely undoes any attempt at stealth.
The value is that he spend less time searching. But that wont win them the game
Yes it will. Time is literally the currency of victory for both sides. Being able to cut out all time spent actually having to find a survivor is going to make a significant difference.
Now you need to decide if its a good time to stealth
In the presence of these perks, it is never a good time to stealth, since stealth requires investment on the survivor side, and these perks turn the pay-off from being in the survivors' favour, to the killer's. Stealth usually means being caught out of position for the start of a chase, so if these perks are in play, not only does stealth not work, it actually benefits the killer.
Not taking aggro.
If the killer spends time looking for a survivor they can't find, that's helping the team in much the same way taking a chase would.
Killer wasting time searching. If its too much, its far easier to stay on the obvious location: the hooked survivor. Thats why tunneling killer dont bother with NtH, its pointless for their playstyle.
I'll double back on this one with a later point…
The value of perks. The killer has only 4 slots. Having one perk hard-countering it, is a bit much. You could mix it with perks like self preservation, but suddenly you need to sacrifice more perk slots. And it is/was always a gamble. Both sides dont know what the other side will bring and if they get value of their perk build.
Except that one perk didn't hard-counter it for anyone but the person running it, meaning that it'd be 1/4 of both sides' loadout in order to be fully negated.
Not wanted gameflow. Its highly subjective (or the devs have data to back it up), but the decision was that the catch-game is more interesting than hide-and-seek.
And this is kind of hypocritical with regards to the earlier remark about tunnelling. If tunnelling was a problem, it'd get fixes. It'd get addressed. But given that it's been buffed repeatedly as well, apparently it's not a problem, barring one exception: When it can be used as an excuse to nerf something on the survivor side.
The double whammy here is that the worst version of stealth is still there, ratting is still possible by just using lockers. The only thing these changes have done is make it harder for someone to contribute while playing stealthy. In other words: In their efforts to fix stealth being uninteresting, they made it more uninteresting.
-
@redhat74 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4072252#Comment_4072252
>Dbd's offical Discord has chat channels for SWFing.
Indeed they do which of course is cheap and not in the game.
>That's cool you think it's cheating…
It's not whether I think it is cheating, having an unfair advantage over other players is by definition cheating.>…but I don't think they agree.
A definition of a word isn't decided upon by voting
>Lots of popular streamers openly use Reshade.
Yes cheating is prevalent in DBD, as mentioned in the OP.
> Again, don't think they agree with you.
Again, it's not a voteIt's not whether I think it is cheating, having an unfair advantage over other players is by definition cheating.
Given killrates are aimed above a proper balance-point, does that mean playing killer is cheating, too?
-
@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4072140#Comment_4072140
Actually, items for one killer perk, the other one just adds zoning.For two because Weave is almost unusable without franklins and you dont need to even place it in corners you can even keep it if you dont mind getting it back later because the range is just 12 meters which is just to cover one loop.
It's a dead end because the killer has no reason to go there and the reason the killer has no reason to go there is because survivors have no reason to go there. It's a dead end for the survivor, too. You're still wasting time running off to a spot you have no reason to be in order to get rid of something that's supposed to help you out.And when you do it, the killer gets to see your exact location anyway, too.You waste franction of time compare to killer who wasted just two perkslots for one thing that wont happen, if you know how much perks mean way more for killer than survivor than its kinda worth it not to mention you dont even have to do it. Killer can see you in corner for few seconds but unless its high mobility killer who can play with m1 a lot than this isnt problem for you because blight wont run it or nurse.
You complayin here to much for neach combo that requires two perks even BBQ causes survivor to go to locker if they believe killer has it or friends till the end which is still time waste but worth it most of time.
A perk that reliably removes an entire component of gameplay does kind of sound like something that's too strong, don't you think?It removes hinding if you dont go away from gen as new megs that ear killer terror radius so they leave but than again the main part the game is build on are chases not hinding so I dont think its broken because there are many perks that counter hiding so this kind of argument falls off.
What kind of arguing is this? Because it's not as bad as a hypothetical super-busted OP perk, it's not a problem? With that argumentation, you can bring back insta-gen BNPs because 'it's not that bad, it doesn't provide an immediate insta-escape'.If you compare insta BNP to aura perk Idk what kind of good stuf you found but this is totaly off and as I mentioned before this perk is easy to spot killer is kicking gens alot even when they have under 5-10% of progress and when you are around he goes after you or super close to you to surprise you and lockers exist or W+ shift.
There's a ton of survivor perks that are reliant on you doing things that you aren't required to do at all, or things that you may not get the chance to do. Think of Deliverance when someone else gets the unhook, Solidarity when someone else gets the heals off, Inner Strength, Invocations, etc.But things like FoR and particularly NTH aren't comparable to those because their requirements are just completed passively as you play the game. They're on the level of Sprint Burst and Lithe in terms of 'requirements', not Deliverance.Inner strengh - break totem and you can heal in locker, but deliverence ? that perk is heavy meta for some logical reason because it kills killer preasure of need to have other survivor to come and save you thats why its so good.
The requirement is passive only for nowhere to hide because floods are scourge hooks and its heavily effected by rng because scourge hooks can spawn all in one corner so reliability of this perk is questionable only thing that holds it is its strong effect.
I don't think you're paying attention.BBQ's range cap is a -minimum- range. This means that the perk ONLY works to do what was initially said: It gives the killer info to lead them to the next target. It doesn't take their hand and just auto-starts the chase for them, like FoR, Weave and NTH do.That's why NTH especially is a problem perk.Additionally, BBQ has a clear indicator of when it is about to fire. Survivors get no such heads-up for FoR unless they're in a swiffer with comms, meaning BBQ has much better counterplay.BBQ doesnt give you just info about who is 40 meters from hook away you miss this perk entire value here which tells me you dont play killer much do you, it gives you info about all survivors if they are in hook range or if they are far away from hook which can help killer to make his decision on where he will stay or patrol or run off this is what many people miss just like you did now you just look at perks text in game and talk ybout it but totaly missing what this perk does in real game and how is useable this is where your points fall off.
And doesnt NTH have warning too? Like when killer is kicking gen which is loud and can be seen or super easily predicted if he is oing it often (because he runs this perk obviously or maybe oppression), survivors dont know when is their teammate about to get hooked that greatly its there but its not that super clear especialy for soloq where many just dont even know where killer got down and where to look at on screen to expect that few seconds for hook aura of their teammate.
The NTH hasonly one flaw and thats the aura moving with killer and not staing on gen something aliens weapon perk that makes survivor scream after killer opens a locker had before when it was in meta.
If this effect stayed on that gen than its super ok.
T
o quote: "Floods of Rage, Nowhere to Hide and Weave Attunement do not havethisrestriction."I'm not talking about these perks having no restrictions, I'm talking about these perks not being restrained from simply taking the killer's hand and starting the chase for them.These perks take someones hand as many other does they are info perks so logicaly even for 13 old they will help you in where you can have no clue where someone is, majority of perks hold your hand in this game because they give you ceratin effect which you wouldnt be able to have without them even as killer or survivor only thing that makes them different are strenghts of their effects and their reliabilities plus how you get these effects like perk with not so great effect that rerquires all survivors being hooked for first time (krasues exposed perk) not so good compare to perk with same requirement that gives stronger effect or perk that has same effect like in exsample I used exposed perk like make your choise or dragons grip.
Yes, Sprint Burst and Lithe are also perks whose 'activation requirements' are negligible. That's why 'they have activation requirements' is not an argument in NTH's defense and a very slim one for FoR.Floods are way harder to activate than pain res it takes way more time and by that time killer can be fully focused in chase and has aura for 9 seconds so this isnt problem. NTH has one flaw I believe I mentioned it for fourth or fift time in this post and thats it the range sint so huge of a problem if it was I believe devs would already touched that perk like they did to flashlights after south korean stream with one very good dev with that legendary quote about good job, they didnt so it seems its ok Im just for binding that aura reveal to that gens location not killers so its like in 2v8 and same change unltimate weapon got.
For two because Weave is almost unusable without franklins
But not the other way around.
You waste franction of time compare to killer who wasted just two perkslots for one thing that wont happen
The killer wastes no time. Your timewaste is what he gets out of his perks, on top of you having no items anymore, on top of you not being able to hide in that area anymore. That's still plenty of value.
It removes hinding if you dont go away from gen as new megs that ear killer terror radius so they leave but than again the main part the game is build on are chases not hinding so I dont think its broken because there are many perks that counter hiding so this kind of argument falls off.
Just because you personally don't care about that gameplay element doesn't mean it's not a thing. Just because it's not the only problem on the block, doesn't mean it isn't one.
If you compare insta BNP to aura perk
No, you did. You compared NTH to something that just auto-downs a survivor as some kind of argument for it not being a problem.
only thing that holds it is its strong effect.
Yes, its strong effect.
Some might say its 'overly strong' effect.
It'd be a better perk if it had a weaker effect but was more reliable, no?
BBQ doesnt give you just info about who is 40 meters from hook away you miss this perk entire value here which tells me you dont play killer much do you, it gives you info about all survivors if they are in hook range or if they are far away from hook which can help killer to make his decision on where he will stay or patrol or run off this is what many people miss just like you did
Except it doesn't do that. Because BBQ announces when it is going to fire and gives survivors the opportunity to counterplay it.
Sure, you could assume that every aura you DON'T see is within the 40 meter radius.
But you can't be sure of that because lockers exist. And unlike with Floods of Rage, survivors get a heads-up display element that tells them when BBQ is about to fire, which means they can actually opt to use those lockers.
If you don't see an aura, it's -possible- that there's a survivor near you. But it's certainly not guaranteed.
Even if you were to assume that your guess is accurate 100% of the time, you are still left with an area with a diameter of 80 meters in which the survivor can be hiding. And unlike with the other problem aura perks, BBQ will tell you nothing more. You will have to find them yourself, as the perk won't simply tell you their exact location.
And doesnt NTH have warning too? Like when killer is kicking gen which is loud and can be seen or super easily predicted if he is oing it often (because he runs this perk obviously or maybe oppression), survivors dont know when is their teammate about to get hooked that greatly its there but its not that super clear especialy for soloq where many just dont even know where killer got down and where to look at on screen to expect that few seconds for hook aura of their teammate.
Accusing me of not knowing how a perk works from the killer side, but are you seriously unaware that survivors can see when their teammate is being picked up? And barring the one exception of a killer going a piggy-back build, if a survivor is being picked up, they're about to be hooked. That's a lot of forewarning that BBQ gives that NTH and FoR do not.
These perks take someones hand as many other does they are info perks so logicaly even for 13 old they will help you in where you can have no clue where someone is
No, this is where the critical distinction lies.
BBQ tells you where to LOOK for someone. NTH, FoR, WA tell you where someone IS.
BBQ gives you clues, NTH, FoR, WA tell you the answer straight-up.
BBQ gives you a general area that you will have to search with your own eyes and skills, while NTH, FoR and WA remove all requirement for any competency in that field.
BBQ is a tool to help you in your job. NTH, FoR and WA just take your hand and do your job for you.
That is the problem distinction. That is why the latter perks are the death-knell of stealth, while BBQ is completely fine.
Floods are way harder to activate than pain res
They have the exact same activation requirement.
if it was I believe devs would already touched that perk
If you still have faith in BHVR, you must be really new here.
@TicTac said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4072034#Comment_4072034
You could use a locker against NtH. Sometimes you cant, but then you cant avoid BBQ either.
But thats not the point. Its not about going unseen the entire match. Its about countering the effects. Reducing the value. You can sneak away and start running when the killer starts kicking. (It wont work on some maps against Nurse bc she just blinks through two walls and one ceiling...)
Same with FoR. You cant stop it from activating in chase or while the killer is near you. But you can stealth near a pallet or juke a mindgame if you know the killer sees you. Sometimes you will pay the knowledge with a hit, but that doesnt make those perks op. They have value same like BBQ.
But thats not the point. Its not about going unseen the entire match.
It's not about going unseen because this perk precludes that completely. It's a total shutdown of an entire playstyle that became the new standard to such an ingrained extent that another perk had to be nerfed to make room for it.
-
@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4072088#Comment_4072088
So spend a bunch of time stowing your items out of use and still be unable to hit that corner of the map, probably multiple corners. That's not two dead perks, because now survivors cannot use items, and those are a big deal judging by the constant nerf-calls for toolboxes and medkits, and the frustrations about flashlights.As I said items for 2 killers perks and you dont need to got directly to the each corner just drop it in some dead end where it wont help the killer give him the info he wants from that perk so in place like shack or some loop just go near edge of the map and drop it there and its ok or keep using it he must m1 hit you to get thte value from it so its int that bad to keep the item either unless you get slaped with m1 on shack and than continue to loop him there while he has aura on you all the time plus you can see this on your screen that he has it.
Does not fix the problem pointed out, and it does not need another perk to get value.Floods arent that busted perk as you claim its kinda mid aura perk it gives long reveal but when survivor who is on scourge hook gets unhooked so killer usualy by this time is doing something already and is busy.
And killers would obviously never want to kick a gen and then immediately get to see the survivor's exact location. Bad perk. That's why it's consistently in top 5.The reason its in most used is because its very reliable many survivors just do gen, get terror radius proc and go few meters from gen and thats where it gets them but this perk just puts you in chase and doesnt kills you immidetly so its not that bad and its pretty easy to tell killer has it because he kicks every gen even the ones that arent needed or worth to kick.
'Hooking survivor' is not a requirement that can be held against a killer perk. You are required to hook survivors anyway.Yeah you are required to do something to get something from that perks just like many survivors perks that give survivor some effects if they do their objective its like post BBQ with longer reveal and no range cap but happens when that survivor is unhooked and its just on 4 random hooks and only one perk changes scourge hooks placement so nothing crazy as you claim.
No, and this is the distinction between BBQ and NTH: BBQ only works on survivors that are a good distance away from the killer, giving them an opportunity to hide after the aura read ends. Lethal Pursuer only works at the start, which is when the survivors should be a good distance away from the killer, once again, giving them an opportunity to hide.And nowhere to hide just works in certain distance (24 meters) when killer kicks gen only issue that perk has its that its bound to killers character and not that gen like in 2v8 reveal mechaninc with kick thats only bad thing that perk has nothing more my exsample in its core of thinking makes sence only you see two other perks less usefull but thats becuase how they are set like most of gens with some progress have survivor around and killer goes to check gens to find survivors naturaly this perk just helps him in that because nurses is even stronger in its idea but its usefullness isnt that reliable compare to nowhere to hide (it was when was selfcare strong and peple healed everywhere but now healing meta is under hook right after the save)
These two perks specifically give the killer direction, but don't hold their hand and just wipe any possibility of hiding. Floods of Rage, Nowhere to Hide and Weave Attunement do not have this restriction.They have restrictions for floods you need to get survivor hooked onm special hook and than when someone saves him its gives you aura read.
Weave needs franklins to work and works only on m1 attacks only killer has some addon which causes survivors to drop items as bubba has on his saw which means by itself this aure perk is almost usesles because people have their own items and dont go for chest to get them, on top of that this perk has pretty easy counter and even if you loose your item you can go and grab it and get only oblivious for 30 seconds but if you are in revealing range of weave attunement you get info on your screen as survivor even as survivor who hasnt droped any item so this perk literally tells you killer has it which is so dull Idk what you mind here that much it has so many warnings and counters plus its only strong if you stay at loop where some droped item is but than again you have warning you your screen with this perk icon meaning you are in revealing range just like dissolution being sctive you have same warning so Idk whats your issue even picking items back from ground doesnt give you that much of a negative effect.
If the thing you need to do is just 'play the game', that's hardly a requirement. You're not gonna get anywhere in the game anyway without hitting a survivor (Franklin's + Weave) or hooking them (Floods) and you're almost certainly not gonna play a game without kicking a gen (NTH).Thats dump comparison because perks give you special effects after you did something in the game which is mostly part of your gameplay objective thats like saying you wont get away from killer without activating sprintburst or lythe because running and vaulting arent your main things to do when you ran from the killer.
From all 3 perks so have such grudge about only one is bit problematic and I already mentioned and broke down why second time here with this post.
As I said items for 2 killers perks
Actually, items for one killer perk, the other one just adds zoning.
and you dont need to got directly to the each corner just drop it in some dead end
It's a dead end because the killer has no reason to go there and the reason the killer has no reason to go there is because survivors have no reason to go there. It's a dead end for the survivor, too. You're still wasting time running off to a spot you have no reason to be in order to get rid of something that's supposed to help you out.
And when you do it, the killer gets to see your exact location anyway, too.
Floods arent that busted perk as you claim its kinda mid aura perk it gives long reveal but when survivor who is on scourge hook gets unhooked so killer usualy by this time is doing something already and is busy.
Again, does not fix the problem pointed out.
The reason its in most used is because its very reliable many survivors just do gen, get terror radius proc and go few meters from gen and thats where it gets them
A perk that reliably removes an entire component of gameplay does kind of sound like something that's too strong, don't you think?
but this perk just puts you in chase and doesnt kills you immidetly so its not that bad and its pretty easy to tell killer has it because he kicks every gen even the ones that arent needed or worth to kick.
What kind of arguing is this? Because it's not as bad as a hypothetical super-busted OP perk, it's not a problem? With that argumentation, you can bring back insta-gen BNPs because 'it's not that bad, it doesn't provide an immediate insta-escape'.
Yeah you are required to do something to get something from that perks just like many survivors perks that give survivor some effects if they do their objective
There's a ton of survivor perks that are reliant on you doing things that you aren't required to do at all, or things that you may not get the chance to do. Think of Deliverance when someone else gets the unhook, Solidarity when someone else gets the heals off, Inner Strength, Invocations, etc.
But things like FoR and particularly NTH aren't comparable to those because their requirements are just completed passively as you play the game. They're on the level of Sprint Burst and Lithe in terms of 'requirements', not Deliverance.
its like post BBQ with longer reveal and no range cap but happens when that survivor is unhooked
I don't think you're paying attention.
BBQ's range cap is a -minimum- range. This means that the perk ONLY works to do what was initially said: It gives the killer info to lead them to the next target. It doesn't take their hand and just auto-starts the chase for them, like FoR, Weave and NTH do.
That's why NTH especially is a problem perk.
Additionally, BBQ has a clear indicator of when it is about to fire. Survivors get no such heads-up for FoR unless they're in a swiffer with comms, meaning BBQ has much better counterplay.
And nowhere to hide just works in certain distance (24 meters)
And that radius is pretty huge and it's focused on an area where survivors are pretty much required to go. It's big enough that a survivor cannot escape it without running, which defeats the point of countering NTH since then you'd just be leaving scratch marks.
They have restrictions
To quote: "Floods of Rage, Nowhere to Hide and Weave Attunement do not have this restriction."
I'm not talking about these perks having no restrictions, I'm talking about these perks not being restrained from simply taking the killer's hand and starting the chase for them.
Thats dump comparison because perks give you special effects after you did something in the game which is mostly part of your gameplay objective thats like saying you wont get away from killer without activating sprintburst or lythe because running and vaulting arent your main things to do when you ran from the killer.
Yes, Sprint Burst and Lithe are also perks whose 'activation requirements' are negligible. That's why 'they have activation requirements' is not an argument in NTH's defense and a very slim one for FoR.
-
@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4071963#Comment_4071963
Weave attument is working with franklins only and this perk has easy counter just go to corner and drop your item there if it bothers you and killer has two dead perks in term of survivor loosing item which isnt their strongest thing honestly.
Floods of rage are scourge hook and need other perks to ge good with value or its rng based on 4 random hooks and tbh there are way better scourge hook perks than this one.
nowhere to hide can be tricky, easy fix would be that it isnt bound to killers position but the damaged gen so the 24 meters are is near gen thta killer kicked and not around moving killer but other than that that perk isnt super op because killer must take his but to gen and kick it and perks like pain res,ruin make this one not much useable or sometimes even perks like deadlock.
Aura perks are just something for something like they require survivors to do some action like nurses calling or killer like hooking survivor,openm lockers etc. so he gets info.
By your thinking pattern the nemesis perk lethal persuer is the most problematic but even if its good perk it only works once and than gives small two seconds of aura for other aura perks so nothing busted.
The perks you mentioned need killer to do something to acquire the aure reading effect and some of tem even dont work well alone like that vecnas perk for items and need other perk to work properly.
Weave attument is working with franklins only and this perk has easy counter just go to corner and drop your item there if it bothers you and killer has two dead perks in term of survivor loosing item which isnt their strongest thing honestly.
So spend a bunch of time stowing your items out of use and still be unable to hit that corner of the map, probably multiple corners. That's not two dead perks, because now survivors cannot use items, and those are a big deal judging by the constant nerf-calls for toolboxes and medkits, and the frustrations about flashlights.
Floods of rage are scourge hook and need other perks to ge good with value or its rng based on 4 random hooks and tbh there are way better scourge hook perks than this one.
Does not fix the problem pointed out, and it does not need another perk to get value.
nowhere to hide can be tricky, easy fix would be that it isnt bound to killers position but the damaged gen so the 24 meters are is near gen thta killer kicked and not around moving killer but other than that that perk isnt super op because killer must take his but to gen and kick it and perks like pain res,ruin make this one not much useable or sometimes even perks like deadlock.
And killers would obviously never want to kick a gen and then immediately get to see the survivor's exact location. Bad perk. That's why it's consistently in top 5.
Aura perks are just something for something like they require survivors to do some action like nurses calling or killer like hooking survivor,openm lockers etc. so he gets info.
'Hooking survivor' is not a requirement that can be held against a killer perk. You are required to hook survivors anyway.
By your thinking pattern the nemesis perk lethal persuer is the most problematic but even if its good perk it only works once and than gives small two seconds of aura for other aura perks so nothing busted.
No, and this is the distinction between BBQ and NTH: BBQ only works on survivors that are a good distance away from the killer, giving them an opportunity to hide after the aura read ends. Lethal Pursuer only works at the start, which is when the survivors should be a good distance away from the killer, once again, giving them an opportunity to hide.
These two perks specifically give the killer direction, but don't hold their hand and just wipe any possibility of hiding. Floods of Rage, Nowhere to Hide and Weave Attunement do not have this restriction.
The perks you mentioned need killer to do something to acquire the aure reading effect and some of tem even dont work well alone like that vecnas perk for items and need other perk to work properly.
If the thing you need to do is just 'play the game', that's hardly a requirement. You're not gonna get anywhere in the game anyway without hitting a survivor (Franklin's + Weave) or hooking them (Floods) and you're almost certainly not gonna play a game without kicking a gen (NTH).
-
@TicTac said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4071963#Comment_4071963
Thats not really true. More for Wesve Attunement, but it announces itself atleast.
Floods of Rage and NtH are pretty similar to BBQ. (Floods has kinda the same activation requirement with needing to hook). They have clear activation condition, active timer and counters. The hard part is to figure out if the killer has it (same goes for BBQ).
No they don't. You can't leave the NTH radius without making scratch marks, you can't prepare for a Floods of Rage unless you're on comms with the person doing the unhooking.
The big distinction that made these perks in particular break the status quo is that BBQ & Chili does NOT work on anyone too close to the killer. It specifically has a stipulation that permits survivors to still hide. NTH and Floods of Rage in particular do not permit that at all. If you're anywhere near the killer when it pops, too bad. Sucks to be you, I guess.
-
@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4071951#Comment_4071951
They seem extremely reluctant to put the 5s back in for some reason. Even the brief period they tried it again they also shadow nerfed the animation to be another second longer, so both killer and survivor ended up getting stunned for about an extra second, which made no sense.
Personally, since they are deathly afraid of 5s, having the perk put the killers power on a short cooldown would be better overall. It hits the mobility killers hardest, and killers like trapper aren't going to care.
It would still have to be in addition to a stun, otherwise an immediate m1 downs you again, but it could even be 3s if you took the abilities that instantly close the gap out of the equation.
The issue is that OTR entered the picture. With OTR + DS, you can bodyblock too much.
DS needs to go back to 5 seconds, minimum, and OTR needs to be changed to be a complete info blackout instead of endurance. No scratch marks, no footsteps, no grunts of pain, no breathing, no aura, no killer instinct, no loud noise notifications, no crows, no bloodpools, nothing. Stopping just short of total invisibility.
That way, both OTR and DS can work as effective tunnelling deterrents without working for anything else.
-
@LinkToReality said:
The killer is meant to be the hunter, it's meant to have info to lead it to it's next target.
The survivors can play around it in many ways,.Like if they think the killer has BBQ, just hop a locker for a few seconds when the killer hooks.
If you know the killer has Friends Till the End make sure you go in a locker for 10 seconds if you're the obsession and someone is getting hooked. The scream doesn't give aura, only the location bubble so you can sneak away if you're hit by it as long as you're not hovering around the killer.
The in chase aura perks generally have really long cooldowns so while they might help with a mindgame here and there I wouldn't say they're consistent enough to be like an auto win or anything, especially not against good survivors.
If the killer instantly go for your hiding spot after kicking a gen you can be pretty sure they have NTH, so just stop hiding close to generators. Sure the effect follows the killer for the duration but it's really not that long, even with Lethal.
Darkness Revealed can be strong but on some maps the locker placement is so scuffed that you get nearly no value out of it.
Run perks like We See You, so that you can punish killers with lots of Aura read if you think it's such a powerful thing. Clearly having 15 seconds of aura read on the killer every 4 times they see you, for the whole team, is stronger than the killer seeing you for a few seconds now and then.The killer is meant to be the hunter, it's meant to have info to lead it to it's next target.
And that's fine for stuff like BBQ & Chili, and it's basekitted via crows, scratch marks, gen noises, etc.
The problem is that with stuff like Floods of Rage, Weave Attunement and particularly Nowhere to Hide, it doesn't 'provide info to lead to the next target', it just attaches a giant neon sign to the survivor going 'HERE THEY ARE!'
Game was never designed around the killer not ever having to look for survivors. The later generations of aura perks simply do all the work.
-
@Dr_Emarald said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4071084#Comment_4071084
that's why I have changes for both sides, survivors just get hit harder over-all because it's there's nothing to be specific about from survivor to survivor like killer to killer.
Survivors also, currently, have more over-tuned mechanics and perks than killer. Which is more alarming because it's a 4v1 game, the 1 in the 1v4 should be stronger by default.
Survivors also, currently, have more over-tuned mechanics and perks than killer. Which is more alarming because it's a 4v1 game, the 1 in the 1v4 should be stronger by default.
How are they overtuned when the killrates are still over 60%? Is your balancing baseline just 4Ks, 100% of the time, with at max 3 gens done?
-
@Dr_Emarald said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4069548#Comment_4069548
yeah I want the games meta to change and for the game to take effort/skill to play. If the kill-rates rise for a bit as adjustment pains to over-tuned things getting nerfed then that's fine
Well, it'd take effort for one side, not so much the other…
-
@OrangeBear said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4070512#Comment_4070512
Because changing fast track is easy. Tunnelling is an issue that has been built up over 10 years.
Similarly it's easy to make changes to stuff that is the same every match, survivors, rather than killers who are varied.Because changing fast track is easy. Tunnelling is an issue that has been built up over 10 years.
That's a cop-out and you know it. Tunnelling wasn't always an issue 'built up over 10 years', but it got there by being continuously ignored.
This is also ignoring that doing something about tunnelling is much easier than people make it out to be. The real issue is that there is a vocal minority that will raise hell over anything that is done to address tunnelling.
So instead of fixing tunnelling, we end up just using it as justification for yet more survivor nerfs.
Similarly it's easy to make changes to stuff that is the same every match, survivors, rather than killers who are varied.
Ah, so -everyone- is running the exact same stack-build? Are they all running the 4-heal perk build?
Or are they running a variety of builds with some being stack-builds?
-
@OrangeBear said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4070453#Comment_4070453
Those proposed systems would not have been good for the game as a whole. It's my understanding that it was cancelled due to knock on effects and not because of what it was trying to address in the first place. And i support trying to address tunnelling/camping/slugging, just not at the cost of what those systems had.
Fast track is an example of things i think they should focus on because things like this are what contribute to these strategies being optimal. Not the main reason, not even a big one but whilst it's relevant i would like to see it being nipped in the bud which is what seems to be happening. More should be done (to other things in the game) but this is what some are asking for for now.
I am here to discuss design, not reactions.Fast track is an example of things i think they should focus on because things like this are what contribute to these strategies being optimal. Not the main reason, not even a big one but whilst it's relevant i would like to see it being nipped in the bud which is what seems to be happening. More should be done (to other things in the game) but this is what some are asking for for now.
And maybe you'd have a point if this same argument of 'I have to tunnel' wasn't trotted out every single time a killer loses any match anywhere.
'Not even a big one'
But we're here frying sardines while the blue whale gets a free pass.
I am here to discuss design, not reactions.
You want to talk design, consider the following question:
Why does it seem like the solution to every problem starts with 'nerf survivors'?
Why is it that tunnelling itself won't get addressed in ten years, but 'fast track might encourage tunnelling' requires an immediate handbrake?
-
@OrangeBear said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4070382#Comment_4070382
It didn't have to be about "do what they want or else" it's literally just telling the devs the way they designed something encourages a behaviour that people don't like to play against. It's the easiest way to tell the devs that something is bad designed.
Do you have any idea how infuriatingly tonedeaf it is to argue about 'encouraging behaviour that people don't like to play against' after attempts to address that exact behaviour got shot down with absolute vitriol?
-
Killrate target from 60% to 80%, huh?
-
@OnryosTapeRentals said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4069201#Comment_4069201
Because Pain Resonance and DMS aren't action speed modifiers. They're outside the scope of what the new system is designed for. Again, if you think the perks are unreasonably strong then it's perfectly fine to ask for them to be revisited again. But asking for them to be arbitrarily incorporated into the new action speed modifier system (when neither of them function as action speed modifiers) just makes no sense.
Especially when there's already a system that deals with Generator regression that would be better suited to addressing your complaints.
They're outside the scope of what the new system is designed for.
If the system can't account for it, it's a bad system. It shouldn't be that this system, which is supposed to deal with stacking perks across the board, just so happens to only affect survivor perks, just because these survivor perks have more simplified and consistent design.
There'd be outrage if, following the system, Botany got changed to 'gives one extra charge whenever you heal for two charges', subsequently making it exempt from the system because 'well technically it's not an action speed buff!'.
If it's that rickety and arbitrary, there's no point in even trying it.
-
@NeverSolus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4068494#Comment_4068494
There was nothing hypothetical about the numbers I was presenting, save for the 1/10th at the end. Those numbers are not hypothetical, they are the direct math. I think what you mean is that using the numbers to shape a hypothetical argument isn't super useful, though, and I'll agree there. It is, however, better than just bickering and throwing things at one another verbally. If numbers reflecting the actual values of X do not make for better discussion, then I fear I don't understand the purpose of conversation.
As pointed out the values are not X and X is final, because this is an asymm with a large number of variables. The numbers are nothing but springboards for conversation and adjustment. If discussion cannot take place around the actual values of X against Y, then every step further from that point is a step further from the actual situation. This isn't a stab at you at all Cog, I appreciate your bounce back on it. You also said something critical.
"If "unhealthy" means that killers will tunnel more, I just don't believe that. You can't be sure when this perk is in play, or who is using it. Anyone who blames the perk for their actions was already tunneling. It's toolboxes, it's healing builds, it's flashlights, it's sabos, it's healing under hook. FT is just this week's excuse. If "unhealthy" means unfair, well, that's a whole topic, cause this game isn't fair."
You're right in what you present here - tunneling will happen anyway as the game is unfair anyway. My use of the word 'unhealthy' was indicative of things that encourage or foster tunneling. It doesn't matter if tunneling already exists, I'd like to avoid adding more driving force behind more. Tunneling and slugging are aberrant tactics, and until such a time as a correction for them is isolated, encouraging them does not seem wise to me. Partially because I hate tunneling nd slugging when I play killer, and find it gets in the way of my enjoyment - so there is bias there.
I also agree that good players use chase extenders, and FT isn't a huge problem - but I do think it contributes towards one. Permanent progression on stages by gradient is (roughly) comparable more directly to permanent injury states however. There's a reason killers do not have access to such things. But seeing things moving into the permanent progress stages direction is concerning because of the carry-on it can create.
Just because FT isn't meta now and we seldom see it in matches now, doesn't mean it won't/can't be. Guns weren't a problem to warfare until they were, by example.https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4068553#Comment_4068553
Forgive me if I become somewhat more erratic in discussion, as I wasn't prepared for the Eiffel tower. That being said:
"Tunneling exists. There was an opportunity to reevaluate how much of a concept it should have in the game, but that's been nixed. Thus when discussing the strength of perks we need to talk about them under how the game can happen - which means if you take gen perks and get tunneled, you are in trouble."
If you'd like to approach the discussion and math that way I don't mind at all. It is perhaps a bit more honest to simply discuss tunneling as a thing that is in the game rather than discuss it as if it's some fictional thing that could happen.
"Very few things in an asym like DbD can be compared directly because the two sides are unique.Survivors still have the exit gate and, as Cogs mentioned, progress into additional gens isn't relevant.
Also how the killer progresses their objective is very different. A hook is of much higher value if it creates an elimination.
Both sides have ways to regress the other sides objectives (heals, kicks, etc.), both have ways to counter the regression, both sides have risks to their options, and trying to go through all the possibilities would quickly get out of hand.
Trying to create a math argument isn't going to work.
It's why 'does this perk make a healthier game' a far a better discussion."
Saying 'a math argument isn't going to work' is tantamount to saying 'math cannot express this situation' which I find questionable. Yes, the game is asym and yes that does mean objectives are handled differently. The survivors have to open the gate, yes. The survivors have to unhook, heal, etc etc - this isn't to say the killer does not have their own litany of things to do in order to be successful. However the numbers can still inform an argument.
For instance, action economy favors the survivors and we see that in the highest end play - for every one killer the survivors get 4 actions. 4 distinct moving regions of objectives, pressure, and capability. Coupled with communication four will seldom fail to beat one. I do not have a problem with this, to be clear. The problem becomes how much value action economy should express. Do you balance for a 4:1? Absolutely not, that would create a tense, high-stakes situation where the killer always aims for 4k. 2:1 seems around where BHVR aims and that seems sensible. Numbers judge these goals. BHVR Has numbers they use and reflect upon, as you yourself point out.
To say math cannot be present for the conversation when math is present before it and math is present after it is dismissive and frankly dishonest, don't you think? I don't think you're trying to be dishonest in earnest, but when the balancing starts with math, and ends with a math outcome, why are we pretending the middle is a black box? I don't think anyone here is under the impression BHVR doesn't use math in perk creation or kit balancing. At least, I hope no one thinks that.
'Why does this perk make a healthier game' is a fine discussion, but it will be a muddy and blurry one without comparisons and math. I don't find arguing back and forth in emotional bids, flurries up downvotes and us vs them positioning useful. Though, admittedly, that's more most discussions on this topic than your or cogs.
"NOED gives the killer haste and instant downs when the survivors complete their objective.Batteries included also does what you are discussing."
NOED conditionally triggers and has counter play, it's not what I'm talking about. Batteries has conditional triggering as well. What I said was a permanent 1% haste with the insinuation of it stacking. Neither batteries nor NOED do that. For good reason.
"Let's say there was a killer perk that survivors had to 99 gens to play around.The perk would still be getting a lot of value because 99ing gens creates more risk for the survivors that they can be regressed either by kicks or perks. Survivors have to change up their strategy in response to the perk.
The argument that killers need to 'engage' in tunneling because of fast track is saying killers have to do the thing that was already their best strategy."
There already is a killer perk that does that, and you cited it. Batteries. And players can and do 99 gens and take that risk to avoid creating haste zones with it - though granted I only tend to see this from SWF's which makes it a rough example. And I agree it creates value in the 99'ing.
And yes, the best strategy for killers in situations like those presented, mathematically, is to tunnel. It's not against the rules, but is crude and unkind to do. That is rather the point. I'm not saying FT creates tunneling, I'm saying it further encourages it in a clime where we are trying to discourage it. If we're fine with encouraging it, then my position falls apart. If people are just accepting and encouraging tunneling then I can't do anything but throw my hands up.
"People are acting like fast track instantly finishes a gen. If that was what it did, sure. But killers have plenty of perks that speed up their objective, from faster movement speed to exposed effects."
This is the only thing you said that I actually find rude. It has nothing to do with the quoted portion of my statement, and immediately bandies off talking about how people act as if I am not the direct inference. You can just say you think it's how I'm acting - it would be more productive. We're both adults.
But if you feel so inclined - give me the killer perks. Tell me which killer perks create permanent, uncounterable objective progression. Which killer uncounterable perk creates permanent hook states. If your argument is that the math isn't that clear because asym, that's fine, but then you don't have an example that isn't apples to oranges. Exposed is a status that has multiple counter plays and is limited in duration. Speed ups are duration based and adjusted by percentage.
Which killer perks gives permanent, uncounterable objective progression in the same way FT does?
"Rancor lets a killer bypass not just the injury states, but bypass the objective progress and go from no hooks to a death based on the survivors completing their objectives."
Rancor is an excellent example! But it is not the Rule of 8.
Rancor gives the survivor benefits as well, repeatedly, and hallmarks its presence as many killer actions do, giving survivors heads up to counterplay. Additionally it doesn't have objective altering power until the EGC, like NOED. I will say it does inflict permanent exposed, but that's after the survivors have completed their objectives.
This is not uncounterable, and this is permanent from a much later stage in the game than FT. If Rancor triggered earlier, say at gen 3 or 4, it would be comparable. My point isn't that it would be balanced - my point is precisely that it would not be balanced.Those numbers are not hypothetical, they are the direct math.
It's both direct math AND hypothetical.
Take your estimation of what percentage of survivor objective is completed with Fast Track. 6 charges out of 90 required to complete a gen is 6.67%. Sounds like direct math, except the average gen does not take 90 charges to complete, it takes more. Because regression exists.
Yes, Fast Track's charges cannot be regressed, but that doesn't change that a killer regressing a gen increases the total number of charges that went into it to complete it. This means that the percentage of the objective that's done is, realistically lower than 'direct math' would suggest.
'Direct math' has been pulled out of the cupboard so many times and practically every single time it is reliant on an extremely flat and simplified model of the game that does not reflect actual DBD in any way, shape or form.
Additionally it doesn't have objective altering power until the EGC, like NOED.
I also wanted to point out that this isn't true about Rancor. At any stage of the game, hook stages on the obsession are no longer required. This means the killer only has 9 hookstages to target, at any point in the game, instead of 12. That's 25% of the killer's objective done, by default.
-
@Leon_van_Straken said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4065386#Comment_4065386
Ofcourse do such perks change the number of people tunneling, I didn´t say its the reason why people tunnel.
But a healthy way for this perk would be that you get the tokens by the amount of Survivors sacrificed not for each hook. So you had a comeback against tunneling Killers and not against Killers which give you a "good" or "fair" game.
If we keep punishing Killers for spreading hooks with faster gen speeds and reward them for tunneling, tunneling won´t disappear.
The downvotes in this thread are so random. People get downvoted by saying that a perk which encourages tunneling shouldn't give Killer the reason to do so.
While they Claim in the next sentence that the perk is not strong at all. If this perk is no problem as the survivors claim then there shouldn't be a problem to change this perk to be anti tunnel than anti hook spreading as Killers ask for.
You Guys are wild from time to time...
But a healthy way for this perk would be that you get the tokens by the amount of Survivors sacrificed not for each hook.
Not healthy at all, because the perk would need to weighted so heavily that killers would complain about that, too. A perk requiring a teammate to be sacrificed would practically require an instant gen completion to be worth running and that's never going to fly.
High investment, high reward perks simply won't be accepted by the community.
-
@[Deleted User] said:
As survivor i can abandon when the killer is wasting my time after all hope of escaping is gone. So why when all the survivors are standing in exit is there not a killer abandon feature? This is a clear double standard and there is viable reason that is isn't here yet.
While I do agree that killer should be able to forfeit once the exit gates are open, the conditions for a survivor to forfeit specifically require helplessness. Even when survivors are dancing their behinds on the exit line, killers can still sometimes nab kills. 'just leave' is part of DBD idiom for a reason.
It's not a double standard.
-
@CrypticGirl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4064750#Comment_4064750
On one hand, it's a valid point, but the OP's complaint is specifically about the endgame. Would Jay_K's idea be acceptable if it only applied in endgame?
Still not really, since it'd reward tunnelling by giving better odds at an endgame kill. As Aven says, it'd be better if it scaled down with hooks.
-
@Jay_K said:
So i 100% agree that this 15 second endurance is insanly unfair in the end game and I have made a similar post to this myself when the basekit BT first came about. Like you i was met with a lot of people saying that im just entitled and a crybaby killer.
I've read thru the comments on this thread and its quite laughable how extream each side goes. Killers say its an unwinable situation and that survivors sweat for the 4 out. Survivor say end game is killer sided and any end game hook shuold be a trade at least. What i feel a lot of people overlook is the situations that the 15 second endurance becomes unfair. So lets break that down when the endurance is fair and when it is not. Now before i get into it full disclosure. I'm a killer main thru and thru. I have played survivor a little but 90% of my time is spent as killer. Desite this my thoughts on this are objective and look at both sides of the game not just from the side of the killer
2 survivors left - Completely fair to have endurance. Rescuing someone on hook on your own in end game is certain death. Either you don't get the unhook or its a straight trade and most of the time the killer will then try for the 4k because why not so in this situation i feel like the endurance is 100% fair for the survivor3 survivors left - Semi fair to have endurance. Its a much easier rescue if 3 are alive as it shouldn't be a trade however likely hood is everyone will be injured meaning killer has a good chance of getting someone down. Allowing endurance to take 1 body block hit i feel is fair here
4 survivors left - Unfair to have endurance - The reasoning behind this is there are 3 survivors who can rescue. chances are you within running distance of a gate and most of the time that gate is open. This means 2 survivors tag team the rescue with the last survivor there to take a body block hit. Having endurance after this is just insane and results in a completely free escape
So given the 3 scenarios of end game rescue this is what I personally would love to see
During end game the standard 15 second endurance should be scrapped and replaced with a new type of endurance that is based on the amount of survivors alive at the time (alive and not slugged)
Base kit of 5 seconds of endurance and for every other survivor not in the trial 5 seconds of endurance should be added.- 2 survivors left will default 15 seconds
- 3 survivors left will default 10 seconds
- 4 survivors left will default 5 seconds of endurance
I feel this would allow an endurance hit straight of hook so its not completely unfair after an unhook else killers would just let the unhook happen and hit off hook but at the same time would require survivors to actually work for the escape by taking hits instead of relying on endurance to give them the escape. I feel this is the fairest way to handle endurance in end game as to not make it free for the survivor or make it free for the killer by just removing endurance completely
So in other words, the anti-tunnel would only activate AFTER tunnelling has already happened.
Brilliant. What a deterrent.
-
@Carth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4063984#Comment_4063984
The point I'm trying to make is not "bad killers should still get kills". It's to point out the hypocrisy of "if 2+ survviors die before X gens are done its tunnneling and is bad and shouldn''t be possible but on the flip side gen rushing isn't real and if a killer cant get a kill before X gens are don they're trash". Or to simplify it even further
"If a survivor dies before gens are powered they got tuneled and BHVR needs to fix it because that's BS"
vs"If a killer fails to get a kill before EGC they're trash, even if they're spreading hooks, BHVR should make it even harder for killers to secure a kill"
It's to point out the hypocrisy of "if 2+ survviors die before X gens are done its tunnneling and is bad and shouldn''t be possible but on the flip side gen rushing isn't real and if a killer cant get a kill before X gens are don they're trash".
That's not hypocrisy, that's a strawman.
-
For how often I hear complaints about getting 'too much handholding', it's almost surprising to see people defend an aspect that is purely and exclusively handholding to such an extent.
…Almost.
-
@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4058323#Comment_4058323
So you'd rather purposely try to misunderstand the application of the concept to try to force your side to be right, instead of observing the cyclical nature of the paradox? The question isn't about which one was actually first, because that answer changes depending on the scope of your definition. It focuses on the fact that the two continuously cause the other, but why care about something like that when there's an argument to be forced I guess.
The whole idea of gen speeds causing tunnelling is a backwards justification. It's why there's a constant push to keep nerfing survivors and why we still have people arguing that tunnelling needs to be fixed with 'the carrot, not the stick'.
Constantly trying to tie these issues together when they can actually be addressed separately rather than as interlocked phenomena is just making a far bigger mess of things. We're not gonna get tunnelling fixed as long as people can still point the finger at gen speeds, and we're not gonna get gen speeds fixed so long as tunnelling is still a problem.
-
@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4058309#Comment_4058309
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4058315#Comment_4058315
Chicken and Egg. Both issues cause and are caused by each other.
We kinda know which one came first, though, since one patch both buffed tunnelling and reduced gen speeds.
-
@Classic_Rando said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4057524#Comment_4057524
And most people don’t even bother to formulate a response for why they disagree. They just lob their anonymous downvote bomb and run away. It’s a stupid feature of the forum. At minimum they should make it visible who is downvoting so you can see who is logging on simply to downvote people whose opinions they don’t like, sometimes with multiple alt accounts.
Most people have formulated their reasons at least a dozen times, since this topic is an evergreen here and crops up two to three times a month. Everything's been said about it already. People who come barging in, stomping their foot down and claiming their conclusion are just fishing for validation, and if they can't get that, endless arguments that go nowhere.
Someone says tunnelling is needed, someone else says it's not, people do wonky math, there's a whole lot of 'If you hold [opinion] you're clearly low mmr', people bicker over killrates/winrates, 'that's not what average means', patch notes get dredged up, 'you're just a surv main', 'valid tactic', 'it's anti-FACEcamp', 'but whatabout second chance perks', etc. etc. etc.
Nothing that's said here ever makes a difference. Most we can do is click the little button that tells BHVR someone disagrees. Everything else they either already know, or if they haven't figured it out yet, they never will.
-
@KytLuna said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4052945#Comment_4052945
Bro… It's a game. We all have different criteria for what we would consider a win. As I said, I consider a 3K a win. And I'm happy with my win rate. I may not be winning every match, and that's fine. As for the margin of gens remaining before I reach that win, I don't really think that matters. I got my win. I'm happy. How many gens left at the end of the game doesn't concern me. I can only see a killer main maintaining a 70%+ winrate with a margin of 3 gens left every game on S-tier or high A-tier killers. Your comment is quite frankly a little absurd to me. Survivors already have this mindset anyways. How quickly they DC against any killer they don't like has become concerning, whether that be Ghoul, Knight, Nurse, Blight, or Bubba.
What else is the takeaway from someone trying to so drastically undersell a 60-80% winrate? What planet do you have to come from to be sitting on such a winrate and still claim the game is survivor-sided?
60% isn't 'pretty decent' in any normal PvP game, it's very, very high. 80% is astronomical and would get you investigated for cheating in any seriously competitive PvP game. The fact that you seem to think that this is too low just indicates that you believe killers should just win by default.
-
@KytLuna said:
This is such a survivor thing to say, and I doubt many people will agree with it, honestly. Survivors always have, and pretty much always will have the advantage, especially going against weaker killers. Even in solo queue, as long as you're not going against like a knight, ghoul, blight, or nurse, you're pretty set for a pretty easy win.
The reason for this? Survivors need that advantage. Without it, they lost 90% of games. The game becomes incredibly unfair once you take away any advantages the survivors have.
I play both sides as well, and I can confidently say it only seems that way because the MMR system is absolutely broken and does not work properly, as there is a soft cap on it that eventually makes it impossible for it to actually match you with other players of your skill. You would not be saying this if you were paired often with survivors of your skill level, as I can guarantee your games would not be going by so quickly.
As an Artist main, who is a low A-tier killer (if we're going off of Otzdarva's killer tier list), I can tell you I win maybe 60 - 80% of my matches. That sounds pretty decent, until you realise that I'm ending these matches on 1 or 2 gens left, and have to play incredibly precisely to get that win, which at this point in the state of the game, I consider a win a 3k no matter what.
Now, I don't know about you. I don't know what killers you play, what region you're in, how new you are, or what kind of survivors you go against, but it sounds like the survivors you're playing against are just not that good at the game, or may be pretty new.
This game has always been and pretty much always will be pretty survivor-sided. The only way it stops being survivor-sided is if BHVR makes killers absolutely almost impossible to win against, which, of course, would kill the game.
As an Artist main, who is a low A-tier killer (if we're going off of Otzdarva's killer tier list), I can tell you I win maybe 60 - 80% of my matches. That sounds pretty decent, until you realise that I'm ending these matches on 1 or 2 gens left, and have to play incredibly precisely to get that win, which at this point in the state of the game, I consider a win a 3k no matter what.
60%+ winrate is apparently no longer good enough, now the wins need to come, not just with a moderate margin of one gen or a wide margin of two gens, but a colossal gulf of three or more gens.
If you could maintain a, say, 70% winrate with 3+ gens left, why should survivors ever bother playing this game with you? They'd basically not just lose on queue, they'd get stomped.
-
If it disabled all off-hook protections, it'd just take away any decision-making process and just slap a big 'KILL ME' sign onto the user's back. There'd be no reason to use it, really.
-
@cogsturning said:
It seems to be a bug. There was a post where I was the first comment and when I revisited there was one of those above me, so nothing had been removed or anything.
It's Missingno, here to duplicate our master balls!
-
@SoGo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4052372#Comment_4052372
Well, all perks with a degree of power don't sit well with the community, so….. I think they would get over it. Eventually.
As for the reward having to be really high, we could get a perk that would allow a totem to be rebuilt, if the risk/reward scale is too wonky.
But then we're right back to where we started, with a band-aid perk.
-
@SoGo said:
Now, I agree that Shattered Hope should be basekit, BUT:
- No basekit aura reading
- Rework the perk entirely
- Boons should recieve buffs, both across the board and specifcally to the weaker ones (Illumination, Dark Theory)
I actually created a post some time ago about this very topic. Here.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/MLMKRTRKWBRM/sn-c3-admka-obrazovky-2026-02-02-184039.png
Boons should recieve buffs, both across the board and specifcally to the weaker ones (Illumination, Dark Theory)
That's the part that I don't think is going to work.
If you make these perks default to one-and-done, then the power of these perks needs to be really high to compensate. Historically, high investment, high reward perks just don't sit well with the community.
-
@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4052164#Comment_4052164
No, you cannot.
And, in the process, give people a free unhook, and lose my most valuable source of pressure.
This argument would if people stopped pretending that base-kit protections did nothing.
They -have- done nothing.
5 second DS was a much more effective deterrence.