Firellius
Firellius
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@Massquwatt said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4042277#Comment_4042277
Distortion isn't dead, the perk still functions as advertised it just has different conditions to it. You can advocate for numbers changes on it's current iteration whether it's more stacks or less time spent being chased to get those stacks back, the fundamental problem with old distortion was that it was a very passive perk with very passive conditions to it (just being in the killer's terror radius and not getting chased.) and because of that, it promoted very passive gameplay for the survivor using it. There were definitely correct ways to use old distortion as you highlighted but people's problem with it was for every person who used it correctly there were way more using it to just be passive. I think a good compromise for the perk is either we give it an extra stack or reduce the time spent being chased down to 15-20 seconds to get a stack back. Once again I am not advocating for killing the perk, I just want it to promote more engaging gameplay.
Reducing the required chase time would really not matter for the perk's function. At that point, you might as well just make it directly require getting hooked, as there's little distinction between the two.
The problem with this is that it competes directly with OTR, which also blocks aura reading after getting unhooked, and also requires you to get chased/hooked before recharging.
Distortion should recharge off conspicuous actions, not chases.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4041896#Comment_4041896
exactly this. if tunneling gets nerfed so must gen speeds. how they both get nerfed is another matter but you cant have 1 without the other. maybe keep the old ptb anti tunnel and put a block on gens for a certain time frame or at certain intervals like a basekit dead mans switch sort of thing? increase gen speeds? increase regress on gens? no idea, but only working on tunneling without addressing the speeds that caused the tunneling just wont work. slow the gens down, slow the kills down, slow the game down as a whole.
if tunneling gets nerfed so must gen speeds. how they both get nerfed is another matter but you cant have 1 without the other.
Evidently you can, so long as it favours the killer.
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@drag27 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4041445#Comment_4041445
its something I wouldnt want. Cause I understand that demanding unnecessary nerfs comes with consequences or simply put: "if you want something, you have to give something in return", if you demand they nerf killers then you'd best be ready for them to nerf something on your side for compensation or just to make it fair
Who says the nerfs are unnecessary?
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@drag27 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4041385#Comment_4041385
heh yea, then afterwards they nerf the hell out of something for survivors. hows that been working out?
Pretty much the reverse order. They nerf the hell out of survivor things in compensation for prospective nerfs to tunnelling/slugging/camping, and then they chicken out of the T/S/C nerfs and keep the survivor nerfs.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4040794#Comment_4040794
60% kill rate isn't a 60% win rate.
1k and 2k games contribute to the kill rate but aren't wins.
1Ks and 2Ks also don't contribute to the 60% kill rate, though. They detract from it. Only 3Ks and 4Ks (IE: Wins) add to that 60% KR.
The devs aiming for 60% KR is them aiming for majority killer wins.
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@random1543 said:
Yes it was nerfed into the ground due to people who where rats using it.
needs to start with more tokens then just one and they need to up the number of tokens, like you already have to be in chase to get one token why is it capped at 2 tokens its such a low cap.Yes it was nerfed into the ground due to people who where rats using it.
That's the party line, but I doubt it's the real reason.
The difference between a rat with distortion and one without it is that the rat without distortion doesn't do anything to help the team. Additionally, if ratting was the problem, the recharge condition would've been conspicuous actions like healing, repairing or breaking totems, but it was switched to getting hooked, making it directly analogous to OTR. (Just without the Endurance)
I'm pretty sure it was axed because it was the killer complaint of that particular month.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4040014#Comment_4040014
Why are you mad about the killer bleeding you out on the ground for 4 minutes?
Unskippable cutscenes are reviled in gaming for a reason.
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@TheLastSane1 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4039792#Comment_4039792
Play the game without perks or add ons, if you can still be "Gods of DBD" then talk. The fact is Survivor side is brain dead easy, honestly if you can't survive on a good team you're the problem. Yeah its more chaotic and harder to win when you aren't in a SWF team and can't communicate but I keep seeing SWF teams whining about tunneling when its clearly not tunneling and its just the survivor being ######### at the game. And yet you can be utterly ######### at the game and still win as a survivor because the Meta Perks for a survivor are just that much of an easy mode. To lose 4K vs a killer you typically have to have seriously ######### up somewhere. One of your team Amber Hearded the bed or more than one.
And thats the big issue, most survivors are just bad at the game. Especially players who started in the last few years. They have nevber had to get good, they cry enough the Devs make it easier for them. I was playing in the first 3 years of the game, you had to be good or you lost.
Stop whining and get good. You should be embarrassed to have to run perks that are basically the Devs jumping in to save you. You didn't win anything; the devs handed you a participation trophy. Killers are almost never in the same position (I will say almost because some reworks have been overcorrected to make them a bit too good). Thats why the whining ticks me off. I think the devs need to make Killer Bots for the low-tier survivors to keep them out of high-tier play.Did you mean to reply to someone else? Because this rage-out doesn't really respond to anything I wrote.
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@TheLastSane1 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4039420#Comment_4039420
Most killer perks need at least chase won, and most survivor perks don't. I know you think you shouldn't have to have a cost, because the devs have made Survivor as powerful as a Killer, which is just why the game is garbage most of the time. Survivors have numerous perks that just invalidate playing the game as the killer. You win a chase, you down a survivor, both of these being core game mechanics, and then its just no the devs had to come down from on high and decided that didn't count.
Imagine a perk where you finish the fifth gen, and it just immediately explodes and goes back to 0 progression. Or a perk were one exit door is just permanently sealed off and you only discover it after trying to open the door. All survivor mains would crap their pants in unison and never ever stop crying about it. Because the way this works is. Survivors are supposed to want to win the game, but Killer, according to you guys, is just supposed to entertain you and not actually try to win because if they do well its cheating, tunneling, they kill themselves, etc.Most killer perks need at least chase won
Abundantly not true, but it is true for most of the meta perks.
I know you think you shouldn't have to have a cost
Literally no one is arguing that DS should go back to its original incarnation. No one is arguing for DS to not require a hookstate.
Survivors have numerous perks that just invalidate playing the game as the killer. You win a chase, you down a survivor, both of these being core game mechanics, and then its just no the devs had to come down from on high and decided that didn't count.
Except they all have additional conditions that you run afoul of. If you're this bothered by these 'second chance' perks, then the problem is undoubtedly you.
Imagine a perk where you finish the fifth gen, and it just immediately explodes and goes back to 0 progression.
Isn't that a succinct description of the current killer meta?
Or a perk were one exit door is just permanently sealed off and you only discover it after trying to open the door.
It's hilarious how close this is to No Way Out and yet you still hit 'send' on this one.
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Here's one quick thing they can do to alleviate it, which is tangentially grazed in the video:
Bring back the BP bonus stacks on BBQ & Chili. Getting double BP for hooking each survivor once means that the killer has a 'win' condition that's not as hard to attain, doesn't require any sweating, and doesn't even require the opposing team to lose.
Same with WGLF. Having these alternative ways to feel accomplished and rewarded can take a huge amount of pressure off, and I honestly think that the removal of these BP bonuses have done way more harm to the game than the devs are aware of or willing to admit.
These are huge for improving the 'feel' of a match and should be explored more to improve player sentiment.
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@Leon_van_Straken said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4039536#Comment_4039536
Well I answerd to that I think. I don´t want the Button press after the pick up. Just in the animation. You press it it activates. You won´t press it it won´t activate.
Well, yeah, but that's something in a conversation between you and me that other people aren't a part of. So if you're wondering why other people, who don't know you want to retain the 'only during pick-up' restriction, are saying that DS would be busted without the skillcheck, that's likely why.
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@Leon_van_Straken said:
Since this Discussion became kinda popular for some smaller content creators I have a question which hopefully some people can explain to me.
How does removing the Skill Check on DS change the perk to completly broken in the eyes of some Killers? I often red that the Skill Check is easy enough and that survivors which don´t hit it are skillless…? So… only strong Survivors which can loop should use this perk? And newer or more unexpierend survivors should just endure to get tunneld? I am kinda confused…
The only point of contention with regards to the skillcheck is the one I mentioned in the other thread too: If you could activate DS whenever, you could wait until the killer has carried you all the way to the hook and thus buy more time.
This can be an argument against removing the skillcheck. Anything else is just survivor-bashing.
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@Leon_van_Straken said:
Boons could have stayed (except the first Circle of Healing for yourself…) in my opinion when the Killer would have gotten shatterd hope basekit.
Shattered hope basekit would make the entire concept unusable, as it's too strong of a drawback, warranting further buffs, which killers wouldn't like either. High risk, high reward survivor perks just aren't gonna fly.
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Boons shouldn't all be made to fit one singular set of parameters. Some boons might work better if they take longer to set up, some might be better with a larger radius, or a smaller one, some might be better off with some kind of cooldown when snuffed out, or a penalty during this cooldown…
Trying to make them all fit the same standard radius and standard set-up time is a recipe for disaster and probably the main reason we won't have any more boons and none of the boons are going to get any changes going forward.
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If you're looking for a lightweight game to take over that 'fishing for a good match' niche, try Once Upon A Galaxy.
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@TheLastSane1 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4039330#Comment_4039330
So by that logic all Killer perks should be active and not require a successful chase first right?
See the issue with survivors like this, is that none of you want to manage resources you just want to auto-win the game. You don't want the killer to chase you, don't want them to be allowed to hit you, and they aren;t allowed to pick you up either.
Do you see why people consider you whiny? You want to play a game, where you expect all of the game mechanics to stop working so you can win. Thats whiny loser behavior.DS is not unconditional, buddy. It costs a hookstate to use, and requires the killer to activate it. Even with two activations, this is a far steeper cost than most killer perks have.
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4039030#Comment_4039030
I was trying to explain about baiting killer to force some action, but honestly, I don’t think they ever gonna take it seriously, because there are only one reality of match can be played.
If it's 3vs1 on 4 gen, for example, it must be a definitive loss for them, and there are no point to play the match. According their logic, ofc. It's either guaranteed 4k for killer, or survivor must escape through hatch.https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/RXSY9R5YEE1Z/img-3677.jpeg
When if you actually start to sweat in response, sudden 3vs1 can turn to win. Maybe DC and go next epidemy influenced on people mentality to the state when there are no way to fight back.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4039034#Comment_4039034
Then eat the DS if you don't want to do it, but don't act like it's 'forced'.So now we flipping situation in a way of more semantic meaning? Sure, there are no way player bait other player into some action because it is more meaningful to take this bait, even if it's disadvantageous and unpleasant, rather than taking a pose and risking with loss. Sure.
If you wish so, okay, it wasn't “forced”. I baited killer player and they took it, because in the context it was the best possible way from both sides.
just a strong indicator that the perk is significantly too weak to do its job!
In your phantasies where perk for some reason must give immunity to a player after they literally lost health state, maybe. In reality of this game where everything on timer and you commit to decisions based on info — No. That the point of me calling this forced, because actual player can’t do the right play in such case. Do I have DS or not? Is it better to leave such player and attempting to find other person with no info? Killer player can’t counterplay perk, and if they aren't taking ridiculous risks, DS creates a situation where it provides additional obstacle for killer. So you buy time for a team, because it’s the most valuable resource in game. You yourself making this perk weak expecting gifting an immunity just because having personal grudge on tunnel. You treating it as so, that's why struggling to comprehend a concept of its aggressive use and argue for buffs.
Are you going to argue that it's not? How exactly does someone lose the 1v3 with 4 gens left if not by being massively outplayed?
Person wasn’t completely outplayed. I didn't say killer lost in my message, they took their pity 3rd kill in endgame, when we fighted for tie. I said DS gave me escape. And no. Being outplayed doesn’t always define skill issue, how you try to present. This is simply an actual sportsmanship when people don't instantly give up facing with disadvantage. There are some strong entitlement among players in this game giving up if they lose early start I always despised.
The combination of your constant allusions to it in conjunction with private messages make it clear that you've already told everyone willing to listen to you, anyways, so don't act saintly here.
My respect is in not exposing full info I’ve seen. Doesn't mean I’m not gonna make obvious remarks of your level of play, because you strive to point on someone skill or decision making. Demand? Comply. Dare to at least once show your own results before telling others how they should play or treat game mechanics. If it's not simple forum farming ofc.
That's one thing I don't like on this forum. Many players loves to bring statements, yet afraid showing results of their play or uncover some truth how they perceive specific situation. It creates a bunch of controversial takes and later spread to misconceptions of how people playing the game. If I see another “skill issue” or “you must play x way” statement from person I still haven’t seen meaningful proves of their play, suddenly I am a sinner exposing such thing? Sure.
So now we flipping situation in a way of more semantic meaning?
Again, this is you deserting your own argument.
The very start was you talking about 'using it aggressively', which you didn't do in this oh-so-important practical example because the killer actively chose to tunnel you off hook. You used it defensively.
In reality of this game where everything on timer and you commit to decisions based on info
I would like to point out here that you are basically arguing that not having anti-tunnel makes this decision-making process entirely moot, since it would just default to 'always tunnel'.
That the point of me calling this forced, because actual player can’t do the right play in such case.
Funny way of arguing that, because…
@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4039029#Comment_4039029
Firstly, they didn't know only your position, because you were unhooked, so they knew your unhooker was nearby too.
Simply starting with this, when I clearly said killer was busy hooking other person and didn't see where unhooker was. Sure, 4.4 killer MUST to search for healthy surv nearby ignoring injured person, because random from forum knew about DS and said there are a specific way of how to play around it.
Having a kill at 4 gens left and then somehow losing the 3v1 isn't down to DS, that is a colossal disparity in skill
This straight determination of defining someone’s skill sounds as person trying to be restaurant critique barely cooking. You seriously expect me somehow treat your messages about someone's skill after our previous encounters? Just because it was private info and cause of some respect I’m not gonna point on your frequency and amount of play here, in public discussion, doesn't mean I forgot about it. My perspective of view on you barely changed after this, because I haven’t seen any other results of your actual play.
Sure, 4.4 killer MUST to search for healthy surv nearby ignoring injured person, because random from forum knew about DS and said there are a specific way of how to play around it.
You also seem to be perfectly content in calling this the wrong play.
So if your options are 'eat DS' or 'Chase someone else' and this is how you paint 'chase someone else', you do have a very, very clear idea of which is the 'right play'.
DS creates a situation where it provides additional obstacle for killer.
Survivor perk benefits survivors, more news at 11!
My respect is in not exposing full info I’ve seen.
Listen, girl, if you run into a conversation and you publicly declare 'I'm not going to tell mom and dad what little brother did with the cookie jar while they were out last night', then mom and dad already know what happened.
You have already spilled the beans. You've already told everyone. The only reason you won't come out and write it down is because you want to convince yourself that you're being respectful.
'Keeping it to yourself' and 'constantly referring to it and alluding to it' are mutually exclusive.
If I went around constantly saying 'I won't say what I know about your history with ban evasion', would you consider me 'respectful' for not spelling it out for everyone? Or would you be angry that I'm implying you're a ban evader?
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4039029#Comment_4039029
Firstly, they didn't know only your position, because you were unhooked, so they knew your unhooker was nearby too.
Simply starting with this, when I clearly said killer was busy hooking other person and didn't see where unhooker was. Sure, 4.4 killer MUST to search for healthy surv nearby ignoring injured person, because random from forum knew about DS and said there are a specific way of how to play around it.
Having a kill at 4 gens left and then somehow losing the 3v1 isn't down to DS, that is a colossal disparity in skill
This straight determination of defining someone’s skill sounds as person trying to be restaurant critique barely cooking. You seriously expect me somehow treat your messages about someone's skill after our previous encounters? Just because it was private info and cause of some respect I’m not gonna point on your frequency and amount of play here, in public discussion, doesn't mean I forgot about it. My perspective of view on you barely changed after this, because I haven’t seen any other results of your actual play.
Simply starting with this, when I clearly said killer was busy hooking other person and didn't see where unhooker was. Sure, 4.4 killer MUST to search for healthy surv nearby ignoring injured person, because random from forum knew about DS and said there are a specific way of how to play around it.
Then eat the DS if you don't want to do it, but don't act like it's 'forced'. If anything, arguing that just chewing through the DS is the obviously better option is just a strong indicator that the perk is significantly too weak to do its job!
This straight determination of defining someone’s skill sounds as person trying to be restaurant critique barely cooking.
Are you going to argue that it's not? How exactly does someone lose the 1v3 with 4 gens left if not by being massively outplayed?
Just because it was private info and cause of some respect I’m not gonna point on your frequency and amount of play here, in public discussion, doesn't mean I forgot about it.
The combination of your constant allusions to it in conjunction with private messages make it clear that you've already told everyone willing to listen to you, anyways, so don't act saintly here.
You can't keep saying 'I'm not gonna say anything about it buuuuuut' and still pretend you haven't said anything. People here aren't stupid, and everyone has already picked up on what you have very intentionally put down.
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4039010#Comment_4039010
Except you haven't shown any of these because all of your scenarios require the killer to focus on a freshly unhooked target, which is tunnelling.
This is pretty disingenuous. Since you can’t provide own match for some reason….
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/XPDO3CFXAQO4/img-3674.jpeg
In this game DS was used by me.
— It was 3vs1 scenario.
— Killer knew only position of me and hooked teammate. I was freshly unhooked, sure, but tricky thing player hooked someone after me as well, that is already excluding tunneling scenario. It was a hook before focusing on me.
— I didn’t have time to heal/go on gen, I also didn’t want showing them location of my teammate who was meant to unhook, so obviously it was a forced situation of me doing nothing.
— Again, they didn’t have info about other teammate. They saw only me, and I was closer to hooked teammate, so killer isn’t able to leave me, otherwise I am a) reset and go on last gen b)unhook teammate if they prioritise gen instead.
It was me literally hoping on locker, forcing pick up animation instead of letting slug. Before hoping on locker I put them on floor below (it was RPD), distracting them from the unhook.Outcome:
— Teammate was safely unhooked.
— They reset despite killer having active sloppy butcher— They progressed on gen, and it later helped us finishing all of them.
If I didn’t have DS? Game would be over within minute. That was pretty doomed match, because first death happened on 4th gen. And killer was doing really fast chases. If I didn’t have DS, more likely no one went to endgame. I wouldn’t escape at least for sure.
This is real match. Not some pretty theory, just how people actually playing the game. To counter this situation killer had to do some predictive moves and ignoring rational way of play, that usually never happens for obvious reason. Because they are playing, barely caring for theories from forums.Killer knew
onlyposition of me and hooked teammate. I was freshly unhooked, sure, but tricky thing player hooked someone after me as well, that is alreadyexcludingtunneling scenario. It was a hook before focusing on me.Firstly, they didn't know only your position, because you were unhooked, so they knew your unhooker was nearby too.
Secondly, you are freshly unhooked so them returning to hook to chase you IS tunnelling, that is the specific situation DS is designed for.
I didn’t have time to heal/go on gen, I also didn’t want showing them location of my teammate who was meant to unhook, so obviously it was a forced situation of me doing nothing.
So, in other words, it wasn't to the killer's detriment.
Again, they didn’t have info about other teammate. They saw only me, and I was closer to hooked teammate, so killer isn’t able to leave me, otherwise I am a) reset and go on last gen b)unhook teammate if they prioritise gen instead.
If you take either of those actions, you lose DS.
You're laser-focused on the killer perspective here, but have you considered survivor perspective here? If the killer doesn't chase you, what does that leave you with?
You can either:
A) Do nothing
B) Lose DS when touching a gen
C) Lose DS when unhooking
Which of those are a 'win'?
If I didn’t have DS? Game would be over within minute. That was pretty doomed match, because first death happened on 4th gen. And killer was doing really fast chases. If I didn’t have DS, more likely no one went to endgame. I wouldn’t escape at least for sure.
All of this also really doesn't help illustrate DS being some kind of problem because the entire match is insanely twisted from the get-go. Having a kill at 4 gens left and then somehow losing the 3v1 isn't down to DS, that is a colossal disparity in skill.
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4039006#Comment_4039006
Yes, because you can do this. I even provided you an example. Won’t quote it, try to find it yourself. I’ll just try to remind again.
If there are a case that the only available survivor is unhooked with DS, there are a force of this perk. Firstly, do you have a guarantee thought this person has a DS? No. Secondly, do you have info of other players that also as easily available for you? No. Are you gonna waste time for searching of others? Well… you can. But I wouldn’t call it smart decision either. Because you still taking a bait and waste your time, not being immediately engaged in chase. While this person allowed do whatever they want. If you aren’t hardtunneling, it is still a case person doing this.
“Force a DS” goes beyond forcing stun animation. It’s showing killer player isn’t such an easy target. Even when it’s not deserved, like killer hooked other person (so there are no tunneling), and player standing in the most poor spot. Yes, this person not immediately on gen, but if it’s you already looking at such player, you aren’t preventing gen progression either.That’s why again, I simply propose a showcase. I would like to see how you playing as killer, and how good it is playing against poor 4 DS synergy. Because it’s you who claim this, like it’s a guaranteed outcome for killer.You even gonna have an advantage of knowing that they have this perk, which is unlikely for real match, so why not? Or you just wanted to comment me where I say that X situation is possible and... for what? Right now, I just get the impression that you're upset that I'm against buffing this perk, because there are a potential of use beyond tunneling scenario. You have the freedom to simply ignore me, but honestly idk what you trying to achieve now. You really asking for this continuous and unproductive discussion just for some forum farming.
I even provided you an example.
Except your examples all relied on the killer actively choosing to chase you, thus it not being 'forced' at all.
Secondly, do you have info of other players that also as easily available for you? No.
Yes, with two exceptions, those being Wicked and Deliverance. If that survivor gets off the hook, you know the exact location of one other survivor because you know where the unhooker is.
Are you gonna waste time for searching of others? Well… you can.
You should've been 'wasting' that time to begin with, unless you were camping. And if you were camping, or if the unhook happened under your nose, you don't need to search for anyone because the unhooker is right there.
While this person allowed do whatever they want.
Again, by definition, this is not true. Conspicuous actions remove DS.
It's not 'whatever they want' if it's heavily restricted. The second they touch a gen, their behind's right back on the menu.
“Force a DS” goes beyond forcing stun animation. It’s showing killer player isn’t such an easy target. Even when it’s not deserved, like killer hooked other person (so there are no tunneling), and player standing in the most poor spot. Yes, this person not immediately on gen, but if it’s you already looking at such player, you aren’t preventing gen progression either.
This is still not 'forcing DS'. If the killer is already on someone else's tail, be it someone they went after when they left the hook, or the unhooker, that DS is doing nothing.
That’s why again, I simply propose a showcase.
No, you don't.
You're demanding that I showcase it for you.
Nothing is stopping you from playing the way I describe and finding the results yourself. This demand for a skirmish comes from your personal beef with me and not from any kind of rational consideration of the matter at hand.
because there are a potential of use beyond tunneling scenario.
Except you haven't shown any of these because all of your scenarios require the killer to focus on a freshly unhooked target, which is tunnelling.
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4038993#Comment_4038993
Here is more simple answer - if killer not engaged in area close to you, you simply don't use it offensively. I don't know why u all imagine kind of survivor that running behind killer and craving for attention in such case. Or that person doesn't have enough freedom for changing their decision if they find it not fitting to situation. Games are variable, and I honestly advise stop pretending that specific decision provides a guaranteed outcome.
There are already a case, that freshly unhooked players can’t instantly hop on gen before reset and map rotation. More likely, it’s an ask for tunnelling as soon as killer decides to capitalize to use a mistake in case of returning to this area. So again… there are too many cases. I wasn't claiming here with 100% assurance that u must use DS offensively every match. Same advise for your statements
I don't know why u all imagine kind of survivor that running behind killer and craving for attention in such case.
Because YOU are talking about 'forcing DS'!
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I did play TCM, actually, and I thought it was a ton of fun! I liked it a lot better than DBD, but it's been axed, sadly.
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4038896#Comment_4038896
DS is involved, suddenly it strikes you as deeply problematic
Nothing problematic for me. I just said DS is strong enough already and even can be used in non tunneling scenarios, so buffing it just a ridiculous speech. You tried proved me it’s wrong and ultimately failed, because u accept a review only of specific situations that benefits your position, and even afraid to prove your point on practice 👀
I don’t see point in discussing your theory perception of perk usage when you two times completely ignore my proposal prove your words on practice.
Are we also going to declare it incredibly unfair to the killer that when they commit to chase with the first survivor they see, the other three are free to do whatever they want?It’s not related to topic completely and you pushing this to far off-topic, trying to play around words with your hypothetical speech again. You know I don’t appreciate such style of discussion. So again, if you refuse prove your point yourself again after my proposal, I feel nothing towards any of your declarations and their value drops to being 0 for me. Try to prove your position to anyone else, but it doesn’t work for me and you know why
because u accept a review only of specific situations that benefits your position
No, that's you. You keep pulling out scenarios where the killer is multiple mistakes deep into a bad situation and then going 'how can the killer benefit from this, hm!?' without taking a step back and realising that if the killer hadn't committed to their prior mistakes, they wouldn't be in the situation they're in.
It’s not related to topic completely
You brought it up as a benefit to DS.
So again, if you refuse prove your point yourself again after my proposal, I feel nothing towards any of your declarations and their value drops to being 0 for me. Try to prove your position to anyone else, but it doesn’t work for me and you know why
I do know why, it's because you desperately want to dismiss everything I say because you can't argue against it, so you just toss it on '1v1 me, bro!' so you can still pretend to take the high ground.
Have you considered seeing for yourself how much value DS has if you play the way I described?
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@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4038875#Comment_4038875
Doesnt matter what it was for you its loss for the killer either way because if survivor who got unhooked forced bodyblock with some kind of endurance effect than killer decided to punish him for it (very common behavior especialy if he bodyblocked healty survivor its easy to tell killer will go most likely for guy that is oneshot and cant be saved by perk like dead hard or otr anymore) by chasing him some time and that survivor is doing some action that is forcing a grab then killer has few options A to just eat the ds and commit to another chase wasting his precious time or B wait it and trying to get timing right but that survivor can have head on and force another chase or just cause even with waiting it out time loss for the killer or C killer csn leave and go for another survivor which is biggest time waste if that killer doesnt hacve great catch up with solid antiloop like blight,ghoul,billy. All of this is very effective if other survivors do gens and killer has few options, best are stronger killers with catch up powers because they can deal with it more easier than just m1 killers, now if this will do survivors like three times they can get around of plus minus the 90 seconds which is gen time or almost whole gen for single survivor and thats huge hinder for most of killers.
Doesnt matter what it was for you its loss for the killer either way because if survivor who got unhooked forced bodyblock with some kind of endurance effect than killer decided to punish him for it (very common behavior especialy if he bodyblocked healty survivor its easy to tell killer will go most likely for guy that is oneshot and cant be saved by perk like dead hard or otr anymore) by chasing him some time and (…)
"If I do exactly the thing I'm supposed to NOT do, why am I getting punished!?"
@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4038889#Comment_4038889
Important thing to remember here is that it is a
survivorperk, and thus it is meant to benefit the
survivors. A survivor perk is not meant to be designed to benefit the killer.
Yeah. Thats my point. DS can’t be used as a win situation for killer, so you can use it beyond tunneling scenario, “force it”, and it’s still gonna benefit surv player, rather than killer one. Already. Even without making it two time use. With it this is basically a free play, but whatever.
When you're not chasing the person pulled off the hook 60 seconds ago.Oh, so we are making game even more simple, letting unhooked survivor for free heal and roam away? So “win” scenario is playing by the rules of the perk again, avoiding survivors as much as you can? I thought win is about building your own conditions. There are no win scenarios with this perk, and no counterplay. You just wait how survivor gonna capitalise this resource. Nothing about this perk giving you win here from killer perspective. Even in attempts of survivor to use it offensively, the only thing you do as such survivor if killer ignores is return to your business and using moment of killer consciously ignoring you. You still get benefits, because it made you unattractive target.
Again, I don’t mind playing such game with you, to prove your theory. You can show me such a lovely counterplay of this perk, I wouldn’t mind it. I’m ready to waste whole slot for this perk never been used.Yeah. Thats my point. DS can’t be used as a win situation for killer, so you can use it beyond tunneling scenario, “force it”, and it’s still gonna benefit surv player, rather than killer one. Already. Even without making it two time use. With it this is basically a free play, but whatever.
Except the problem is that you cannot 'force it'. Every situation you come up with is one in which the killer actively makes it happen in multiple steps.
Oh, so we are making game even more simple, letting unhooked survivor for free heal and roam away? So “win” scenario is playing by the rules of the perk again, avoiding survivors as much as you can?
Yes, it is. Because now, instead of that survivor having a perk that could help them, like Prove Thyself, Vigil, Sprint Burst, Botany Knowledge or anything else that could provide a tangible reward for them, they are playing with a dead perk slot that is of no benefit to them.
Nothing about this perk giving you win here from killer perspective.
And that is supposed to be the norm.
Again, it is a survivor perk. It's not supposed to be a win for the killer!
Your framework here is predicated on the notion that any situation that involves DS should benefit the killer more than if DS was not present. That is preposterous for a survivor perk that is meant to benefit survivors.
Even in attempts of survivor to use it offensively, the only thing you do as such survivor if killer ignores is return to your business and using moment of killer consciously ignoring you.
And now we're getting somewhere, because consider this: How is this any different from the killer being in chase with someone else?
While they're doing something else, they are not on your case. This is an insanely ordinary situation, but because DS is involved, suddenly it strikes you as deeply problematic. But a killer in chase routinely ignores 3/4 survivors anyway, so why is it such a major problem if this one perk were to increase the chance that you are one of the three the killer is not chasing in that exact moment?
The grotesque benefit that you describe here is extended, basekit, by default, to any survivor not found first, for the entire duration of the first chase. Is that broken OP somehow because in this particular case, it was prompted by a perk?
Are we also going to declare it incredibly unfair to the killer that when they commit to chase with the first survivor they see, the other three are free to do whatever they want?
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4038875#Comment_4038875
So your answer is camping surv in a locker? Or what? You leave them, “because they aren’t on gens”, they finish healing and do their business, putting you in a lose situation because outcome of your chase survivor avoiding hook. You camp them in this locker- you both waste each other time, and since there are 3 players on other side, you are in the only disadvantage here. You go through DS - perk was basically used, and now it’s purely a matter of skill from both sides in matters of chase. When it is a win situation here? Like an attempt to gaslight yourself you didn’t waste your time more than in scenario when unprotected from DS player did same play? You still waste your time going for that player, who suddenly ending up in this locker after all. You still waste an opportunity of free additional hook stage for them and process of this happening is longer in comparison of this perk absence. You simply can’t chase the person without consequences of facing this perk.
Provided it doesn't help the survivors in any way. That's something that consistently gets omitted.
If u as killer with this survivor as well, it’s not them wasting time and not helping. It’s only killer wasting time here. There are no adequate scenarios when there are 4 people on gen, until killer wasting their own time themselves. So person with DS simply stop being a weak link, putting killer in scenario where they either commit to more vulnerable player close to them, eat second chance and try again, or commit to other players wasting time on finding them, going through prerun, and whole health state. You still in the worst spot than player not using this perk, no matter aggressively or not.
I would like to see some of your games against 4 DSes, if you insist on their miserable synergy and inability to be used aggressively. Against meaningful team, doesn’t matter solo or sfw. You really love to insist that even in actuality good situation for surv side - so come one. I still never seen none of your games from both sides, none of your stats, yet you insist that your way of gameplay is unanimously truthful one. Yk, I don’t mind even playing custom where you’ll show masterclass of killer playing in such scenario, and I can try find additional three players for this deal. Comms in case of S tier killer, without comms for anyone else.When it is a win situation here?
When you're not chasing the person pulled off the hook 60 seconds ago.
Because now you've narrowed it down to DS 'unfairly disadvantaging the killer' when they do the ONE thing the perk is designed to work against.
If you've got a survivor sitting their DS out in a locker while you are doing literally anything other than hunting that particular survivor, that is a win for you. Even if you are spending time looking for someone else, or just kicking a gen, or chasing another survivor, that time the DS user spends sitting in a locker is time they are wasting, not you.
Because they could have been on a gen, or on a totem, or healing someone, but they're doing none of that, because they're in a locker trying to 'force DS'.
So person with DS simply stop being a weak link, putting killer in scenario where they either commit to more vulnerable player close to them, eat second chance and try again, or commit to other players wasting time on finding them, going through prerun, and whole health state.
At this point, your complaint is that DS does a thing, at all. Your opinion is that the perk should be designed so that, no matter what the killer chooses to do, it should always end in their favour. They should always have a 'win' option, even if they're multiple bad decisions deep into the one strategy this perk is meant to counter.
Important thing to remember here is that it is a survivor perk, and thus it is meant to benefit the survivors. A survivor perk is not meant to be designed to benefit the killer.
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4038829#Comment_4038829
I feel you just imagine there are only one way players can play (and ofc it's the most oppressive scenario for survs), so it never would be situation where player can use some perk that literally gives you a second chance to try again not for their advantage, and not only protection. It seems you also don’t believe killer can get hook for other player within DS timer, that excludes tunneling because killer switched target for a while, and making DS a completely unfair perk punishing killer for quick hook chains and survivors mistakes. Or, it’s something completely disingenuous in your words, and you want to ignore certain scenarios in a match simply because they stop making the survivor look like a poor victim.
Hop in a locker after all, making killer think twice about either commiting to additional chase for hook stage but potential loss of pressure, or skip such player, leaving them doing whatever they want. Do slow vault instead of fast one so killer will literally be forced to grab you instead of slugging, and they need realise it and react properly. If killer let you slugged for a whole minute camping your body - even better, because it's free generators and killer wasting time. If your teammates aren't potatoes ofc.
Think however you want. If you genuinely believe there are no ways than yours, I’m just not surprised why you obsessed with tunneling scenario so much in this game.
No, you're talking about 'forcing a DS'.
It's not like I don't know what you're referring to with these scenarios, but here's the problem from my perspective:
I've fallen for this only once.
In every subsequent attempt by a survivor to use DS offensively, it has resulted in a win for me. Because all you have to do is not hit spacebar on the DS user. You're talking about a locker, but a survivor in a locker isn't doing gens, and is thus not my concern. You're talking about slow-vaulting, but that's only a concern if I am chasing them, which I never do on anyone who may still have active DS. There's no point in camping the body either, since that slug is not going to do anything for a while and you have other targets to get onto.
There is no way to actually 'force a DS' because you cannot make a killer pick you up. Nothing you do can force them to hit that spacebar.
leaving them doing whatever they want.
Provided it doesn't help the survivors in any way. That's something that consistently gets omitted.
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4038754#Comment_4038754
U seriously underestimate time person can waste before getting down again, which in every normal team gives a free gen progression. If it’s in your case the only benefit person can get is 4 sec. of stun and +10 sec of looping, for me it’s the bare minimum this perk provides rn. I’m also not that kind of person who forcing DS for no reason. No “oh, I need to run to killer face just because”. Examples were shortly explained above. As I said before, there are cases when killer snowballs too fast, and other person already on hook after me being rescued. This is the best moment to bait killer on me being injured and walking around with DS, giving others time for reset.
I doubt I am a time waster and ruining match for no reason to my teammates in average game. Ofc I can sometimes accidentally sandbag or do stupid play, but DS never disappointed me in use. Just an example 16 matches two days ago. 8 matches when I died. In 4 games I died never being hooked before. 4 matches I died during endgame. Only in one game I had opportunity to use DS because killer tried to tunnel, and I died in endgame. By my own fault because was to reckless during opening gates.
In games where I escaped in 4 matches either me, or someone else forced DS on killer. In one match I would die if not forcing DS (and killer didn’t tunnel me). So… 50% ER considering I didn’t touch this game for month and played in normal q where average killer enjoy tunnels more, while more chill players playing event. DS is broken perk. I’m just not asking for fixing it, but buffing it gonna be ridiculous story. It’s fine as it is and maybe only info factor need be provided for solo q, nothing more. My own games showed me DS can be used in non tunneling scenarios, just being “second chance” by default.Right, 'forced DS'.
How do you do that, exactly? Because to my knowledge, nothing can force a pick-up action from the killer. You can't reach through their computer screen and press spacebar for them.
@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4038754#Comment_4038754
4 man with ds means it doesnt matter who you hook they all get second chance and most likely use it agressively (by forcing bodyblock), you can tunnel someone for preasure when you are on 1 or 2 gens left with few hooks not to mention 4 man teams running ds doesnt run just ds but other strong meta perks like unbreakable or dead hard so their options are huge and only one who is having some chance are meta killers which have powers that can deal with all these perks. Just imagine they are very good in doing gens and they arent super bad at looping then with m1 killer you dont have much options because they will have deffinitely 3 gens done on your 3-4 hooks which is huge difference in preasure. If you dont belive ds can be used for bodyblocks then you probably havent met good 4 man than slowed you a lot just with effective bodyblocks (I have seen many games, streaks with m1 killers failed just becuase the survivors had great timing with bodyblocks and gave each other protection hits that made killer loose preasure drasticaly).
What you saying is same as is it worth running ruin when it gets destroyed in less than one minute of the match, well you never know. The bodyblocks I mean are the ones where unhooked guy doesnt even care if you down him because some will surely have unbreakable or exponencial so it doesnt matter who you tunnel or not if you dont do it from the start and be successful the survivors will mostly just get destroyed by 4 mans without powerfull killer or decent killer who isnt joke when it comes at punishing survivors for altruistic plays like huntress or bubba.
4 man with ds means it doesnt matter who you hook they all get second chance
But they don't all get second chance at the same time, is the point. You are not tunnelling all four survivors in one match. Having four copies of DS on the opposing team just means no matter who you pick, there will be a DS to protect them when they get unhooked, but that's no different from picking one and randomly hitting the one person who has DS.
In that regard, 4 DS is no more powerful than 1 DS.
you can tunnel someone for preasure when you are on 1 or 2 gens left with few hooks not to mention 4 man teams running ds doesnt run just ds but other strong meta perks like unbreakable or dead hard so their options are huge and only one who is having some chance are meta killers which have powers that can deal with all these perks. Just imagine they are very good in doing gens and they arent super bad at looping then with m1 killer you dont have much options because they will have deffinitely 3 gens done on your 3-4 hooks which is huge difference in preasure.
But now you're pointing at 'what if you're really far behind' and 'what if they have OTHER perks' and 'what if they're just playing better than you', and none of those are arguments against DS. If your argument for DS being a problem consists of a myriad of other factors that are unrelated to DS, then DS is not the issue.
If DS is only an issue if you're already losing, if the team is stacked with other things, if the survivors outskill you, then DS is not the problem. If it needs other, more pressing issues to be on your radar as a concern, then it's quite a ways down the list.
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@OmegaXII said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4038575#Comment_4038575
If the killer decides not to tunnel at all just to counter antitunnel perks, then these perks have already done their job. ANTI-TUNNEL. Even though it doesn't get activated. That's not deadweight at all, because it already does it's job.
Btw I always play SoloQ Survivor without any antitunnel perks, and guess what? I have over 60% escape rate. My most successful build is full totem build and genrush build.
Did you read what I wrote?
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4038674#Comment_4038674
If there are no limitations implemented by game itself - absolutely
I am myself wouldn’t stop use DS if there are gonna buff it that way. And knowing my play, I am gonna use it aggressively if will have such necessity.
I recently played again after some month of break, and had relatively easy games. The only issue of solo q is that disorganised chaos and people not doing gens. And honestly idk how to solve it. I simply gave up and running meta with some sole survivor now
I am gonna use it aggressively
But 'using it aggressively', in DS' case, means getting yourself hooked, then not contributing to the team, and then giving the killer a down. That's not a winning strategy if the killer doesn't pick you up, which they shouldn't if you make it too obvious that you have DS.
@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4038674#Comment_4038674
Pretty common against sweat teams 4 ds, 4 dead hards, minimaly 2 unbreakables and some other meta perks problem with ds is that this perk isnt that bad the distance you get is like 12 meters in straight line if we dont count one for drop and killers with no mobility can do much against whole team who is running it and using it agressively with bodyblocks and otr or dead hard especialy m1 killers (even ghostface cant fight it because hitting survivor removes his stalk meter progress) so many killers whould get harder destroyed even more than now against these teams that go just full of meta. Blights and ghould doesnt care or nurse (if she doesnt get her bug) but ghostface,trapper,wraith, pinhead will get smacked by full team running ds that can be used two times.
But the point is that 4-stacking it doesn't really do much for the perk. It doesn't have internal synergy and overlap. If one person is getting their DS activated, someone else isn't.
What are the odds that all four survivors get to be downed within 60 seconds after being unhooked? That's the only scenario in which 4 copies of DS would actually be distinguishable as four copies, as opposed to at least one being a dead slot.
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@tes said:
DS is time wasting pretty a lot. One stun giving like a whole new chance for chase and even stage. Two additional chases forced for killer, maybe it can be “solution to hardtunnel”, but def ignore and doesn’t count many other situations.
Limitations to one use more likely because 4 people can stack it in match. This perk already breaking basics principle of lose chase = lose life.
Limitations to one use more likely because 4 people can stack it in match.
With how conditional it is, would 4 people all having it even come into play at any point?
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@Leon_van_Straken said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4038628#Comment_4038628
Yeah thats the point. If the Skill Check is so big that you can always hit it why having a Skill check at all?
Well, like I said: Because it's something players are familiar with and know how to react to. You can make it a unique interaction but it'd be in a league of its own and people would need to learn how to use it, whereas with a skillcheck, players are instantly familiar.
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@Leon_van_Straken said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4038601#Comment_4038601
Not if the Buttonpress is only in the pick up phase.
I don´t want DS to be usable at a certain point, Just easier to use for all people.
I get what you're saying, but that would make a unique exception to the game's standards, while a skillcheck is something survivor players would already be plenty familiar with and would be much easier to communicate quickly. I think a skillcheck is fine, so long as it's huge.
Besides, if the prompt is only available during pick-up, that's functionally identical to a skillcheck with a wide enough margin.
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@Leon_van_Straken said:
I hope so.
And I hope they remove the Skill Check for DS.
Be honest to yourself for what reason is the Skill Check on DS?
I think the reason is that it quickly gets rid of the possibility of an 'on-demand' DS.
If you could just press a button to activate it at any time, you could have the killer pick you up, walk all the way to the hook, and THEN use it to get off their shoulder, which would be way more effective than current DS.
So I'd say keep the skillcheck, but make it absolutely colossal and impossible to miss.
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@OmegaXII said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4038505#Comment_4038505
If you meant what you said, then tunnelling might not be as prevalent as everyone says.
The perk is going to be free, so there's no reason not to bring it if tunnelling is such a common thing. And if you choose not bring it, then you have no one else to blame but yourself if you do get tunnelled. That's the risk you'll have to accept.
DS is a powerful perk, even if it doesn't get activated.
If you meant what you said, then tunnelling might not be as prevalent as everyone says.
Even with 100% tunnelling rate between matches, tunnelling specifically happens, by definition, to one person, not everyone. Assuming even distribution, that means the perk has only a 25% chance to do -anything- in any given match. If you're not a complete newbie, you can assume the chance decreases a bit as you're less likely to be identified as the weak link and thus the killer might prefer to tunnel someone else.
The perk is going to be free, so there's no reason not to bring it if tunnelling is such a common thing.
Aside from the fact that this argumentation runs counter to the very concept of buildcrafting and just completely obliterates player freedom, you might have something of a point if the perk that only and exclusively works to punish tunnelling had not been absolutely gutted at its ability to punish tunnelling.
If DS was still a 5 second stun, and actually costly for the killer to headsmash the spacebar into, then yeah, bringing DS would actually be a meaningful counterweight to tunnelling. However, killers complained that if they ungabunga tunnelled, they would sometimes lose a match by playing head-first into a counterperk, so it got neutered.
Now the perk runs into the issue of likely being dead weight the majority of the time (Even if the killer is tunnelling), on top of being entirely within the opponent's control, on top of being very mediocre in the event that it does fire.
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@Leon_van_Straken said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4037651#Comment_4037651
One thing I will never understand about this take is the following.
One side brings up valid points which can be discussed about and the other sides counter argument is "You just won´t have my side buffed"
There is no conter argument just trying to insult the other side.
In this example: Hey guys these things could be abused in this or that way can we talk abuot it? (adjust the numbers to 4 hooks) Answer: No we don´t want to get tunneld or slugged and you should be punished and we swear we won´t abuse it.
This is no discussion this is just demanding without seeing the other side which was trying to negotiate with arguments.
Than BHVR comes with it sledgehammer and destroys every step further and people claim Killers cried about this great update.
Just give me a reason why it should be 6 hooks
In this example: Hey guys these things could be abused in this or that way can we talk abuot it?
There was talk about it. But a lot of these 'abuse' scenarios were completely theoretical. Much like how Reassurance got nerfed because of a scenario where the killer is in cahoots with three out of four survivors.
Talking about survivors intentionally throwing the match so they can get a repair speed boost or a regression lock is pretty pointless when such scenarios are incredibly likely to still result in a 4K. The problem, from the killer perspective, is that any situation in which the update benefits survivors is seen as 'abuse'. Part of it is a sort of myopia: ONLY seeing the repair speed boost/regression lock, while keeping the dead survivor outside consideration.
It's how even Weaving Spiders had people saying it was going to be OP, because the only thing they had eyes for was the 50 seconds of repair work done, while being blind to the lost healthstate and the 60 seconds of invocation time. (Hell, at the time, it was 120)
It's absolutely true that the PTB needed work, but the outrageous backlash wasn't interested in finetuning the system. There is a problem, when designing anti-tunnel measures, when the feedback is primarily taken from those who do not want tunnelling addressed in any way, shape or form. That foundation is going to taint the feedback, and it resulted in the concept being scrapped.
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Big problem with the way this was handled is that the pro-tunnellers are in direct control of what anti-tunnel is going to look like. People that do not want any anti-tunnel in any way, shape or form go through the changes with a fine-toothed comb to find any situation in which a survivor could possibly be construed to be 'benefiting' from the update and make all hell break loose when they find something, even if the situation is still entirely in the killer's favour.
Like people legitimately arguing that survivors are going to just throw themselves at the killer for a 25% repair speed boost for their teammates, as if that's not pretty much guaranteeing a 4K.
A lot of the 'issues' aren't actual problems and wouldn't be noticed if BHVR had just stealth implemented some of the more subtle elements, but they're just beatsticks used to coerce BHVR into cancelling the anti-tunnel. Had BHVR been more reasonable, we'd have seen adjustments and iterations, rather than a complete scrapping.
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@GentlemanFridge said:
Hmm… a Canada Jay, a strikingly uncorvidlike… corvid. I believe it’s also important to native mythology, though my knowledge there is lacking.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/BV7XD1TRU6G1/image.png
https://www.allaboutbirds.org/news/gray-jays-get-their-old-name-back-hello-canada-jay/
Pic credited to Tim Harding
This is a corvid!?
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Completely eliminating it is not going to be possible, but making it NOT the de facto most powerful way to play should be a priority. And for that, I think DS is the best way forward.
The 6.1.0 move from DS to OTR by halving DS's value and giving OTR endurance was a move that was worse for both sides. Taking one extra hit is weaker than going down, sitting through the pick-up animation, then stunning the killer for 5 seconds, before refreshing chase.
But simultaneously, if someone bodyblocks with DS, they're helpless on the ground, whereas with OTR, they only incur a mending penalty and that's it.
So DS → OTR was a downgrade for both survivors and killers.
So, IMO, they should make OTR a complete info black-out, and make DS with a 5 second stun basekit, with the perk adding another 2-3 seconds. It may also be worth looking into the ability to block active powers to help mess up particularly the more powerful killers like Nurse, Blight and Ghoul, without doing much to more passive killers like Pig, Trapper and Freddy.
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@PetTheDoggo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4034256#Comment_4034256
It's enough to be on this forum for long enough…
I've been on these forums for ages, and I don't see people respond to chain hook denial complaints like that.
Mostly because I don't see people complain about chain hook denial in the first place, except 6 pages deep in a forum trench war about anti-tunnel.
And it's really frustrating, because I think it's a valid complaint, it's awful for gameplay in much the same way tunnelling is, and I think this is one particular thing that could be addressed that would hit the seal-team-6 swiffers harder than solo-queue. But the only time it's ever brought up, it's not because people want it fixed, but it's always to complain about survivors getting something fixed on their end.
Even this post, if you ignore the 'as the title says', the very first sentence just leans into the discussions around tunnelling.
It's never an argument of 'Fix this issue', it's always more in the direction of 'Don't fix survivor issues, because this killer issue exists'.
And that's what gets the animosity.
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@AbsolutGrndZer0 said:
So what the title says. Tunneling is bad. It's not fun for survivors. We all know this.
Thing is, you know what's not fun for killers? Being stunned and chain blinded with extended duration blindness at every pallet. Yet, seems that when a killer main says that is unfun, survivors either don't care, or mock them.
It's not up to me to make sure the game fun for you, just as it is not up to you to make sure then game is fun for me.
In the end, IMO we all should follow The Golden Rule… Do unto others as you would have done unto you.
If as a killer you are so gung ho that you would never be a 'bully" to killer, then play survivor. Don't be the bully.
If as a survivor you are so gung ho that you would never tunnel, then play killer. Don't tunnel.
See things from the other side for awhile.Yet, seems that when a killer main says that is unfun, survivors either don't care, or mock them.
Source?
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@Shroompy said:
Got it
PATCH 9.4.0
-Removed Survivors
-Pig Terror Radius increased from 24 to 32 meters
BUG FIXES
-none lol
Somehow, this still doesn't end the complaints about genrushing.
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@Anti051 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4030505#Comment_4030505
The counter-play is get to a tile within 15 seconds and outplay the killer at that tile, run to the next tile and repeat until the killer has to drop chase or commit to you so hard that they lose the match. With games potentially ending in under 4 minutes, I'm not sure what time you think there is to facilitate strict anti-tunnel/slug rules.
This is one of those "believe it or not" "Like it or not" things:
Until spreading hooks can actually compete with potential gen completion speed, strict anti-tunnel/slug rules cannot be facilitated without breaking the game for most of the killer roster.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/YGN3SM0GEWY8/gbnsqi6yk5051.jpg
Just because a few of the killers can reliably play for hooks and win does not mean that ALL of them can.
You can't expect the devs to make adjustments based solely on how you feel, having them totally ignore the big picture and forsake what's actually fair in an asymmetrical sense (especially when not every killer has the same level of power).
Anti-tunnel and anti-slug rules CAN be introduced, but not without making hook spreading the absolute best way for all killers to compete with gen completion speed.
Until spreading hooks can actually compete with potential gen completion speed, strict anti-tunnel/slug rules cannot be facilitated without breaking the game for most of the killer roster.
Play worse, demand more buffs, got it!
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@ArkInk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4032318#Comment_4032318
I dunno why ideas like this always get silently pushed down without proper consideration.
Would it be difficult to recode map tilings to change with the killer? Sure, but it likely isn't impossible given the seeming implication work was done on a Walking Dead tile spawning on specific maps only when WD survivors were in the match, before the idea was scrapped into a map instead (just speculation though tbh and they'd need to actually finish and expand the mechanic)
If a change like this was made correctly however, it could allow for changing action oriented killers like Hillbilly and Blight to stay with their nice feeling controls whilst getting a pallet count to be more in line with other options, and lower on the totem pole killers that are still beloved like Ghostface could keep their beloved kits without getting power creeped.
It could even extend beyond pallets to perhaps more subtle but directed level design. On an indoor map as a ranged or dash killer? Maybe the halls could be a bit more open and less cluttered. On a wide open map as a stealth killer? Add some more trees and sightblockers.
Would it be difficult to recode map tilings to change with the killer? Sure
Actually, it might not be.
We know, for one thing, that the map is chosen after load-outs are locked in because otherwise map offerings would never work in the first place.
So if map generation follows killer selection, then wouldn't it be possible to attach to each killer a seed, or small bracket of seeds that are custom-built to load in specific sets and elements?
That way, you can make 'RNG' variants that are specifically balanced for each killer, or brackets that each killer belongs to according to their power levels. If a killer overperforms, swap their seed bracket for one with more resources. If a killer underperforms, swap to a seed bracket with fewer.
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@Deadman7600 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4031348#Comment_4031348
The killer has to defend three gens though. I didn't mean everyone just rats around 1 gen, I mean you as an individual tunnel vision 1 gen with maybe one other survivor. Then the others do their own thing, while you pressure this 1 point. Its not hard to run away when you hear a terror radius. If a survivor fails a prerun that's a skill issue, especially when there's other survivors pressuring another point or being as annoying as possible.
I one time had a match with a couple friends against a Myers. The rando Steve gave him a 3 gen (the three gen in nostromo main building) and we used this strat and he could do nothing. He got a 1k with tombstone because the random was terrible and messed up my friend (who I died for so he could get adept). All you have to do is wait for a slight change in tr and then run to a strong tile. It's impossible to die during this process if you do it right, unless you get the killer to commit (in which case they get a 1k or 2k max). Its a slow process but a pretty safe one so long as you have 3 people or more.
The killer has to defend three gens though. I didn't mean everyone just rats around 1 gen, I mean you as an individual tunnel vision 1 gen with maybe one other survivor. Then the others do their own thing, while you pressure this 1 point. Its not hard to run away when you hear a terror radius. If a survivor fails a prerun that's a skill issue, especially when there's other survivors pressuring another point or being as annoying as possible.
Again, though, you're running into the same problem. The killer only loses the ability to regress after eight instances, not the ability to defend the gens. What you are aiming for here is for the killer to have a permanent lock-out, where survivors simply -cannot- win, which is exactly what had to get removed because it was creating 60 minute hostage matches.
If the killer could keep regressing indefinitely, what would change about the situation you describe? The only thing that would change is that it would -never- resolve unless the survivors just give up.
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@Deadman7600 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4031231#Comment_4031231
It can disadvantage you tho. Unless you are against an S-Tier you can just rat around 1 gen and pre run when the killer comes over, unless the killer wants to lose another gen they cannot commit to chasing you and if you do it for long enough the killer loses any ability to stop that gen from completing. That sounds like a disadvantage to me.
I've had this done to me, and I've done this to other people. It's a good tactic that survivors should be able to use, wonder if killer has any of those.
Doesn't change it. You can run that scenario 8 times with regression, and you only lose regression after that, not the ability to defend the gen. If you do the exact same thing the exact same way and get defeated the exact same way eight times, is it really reasonable to demand to be able to enforce an infinite stalemate?
The survivors have to get it right 8+ times. The killer only needs to get it right once.
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@Neverborn said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4031184#Comment_4031184
They've literally made it so we can't slow down gens like we used to. We've completely lost the ability to damage gens after enough damages now. I can't just hold the gift of a strong three gen usually given to me by the survivors.
Can you acknowledge that if I can only kick a generator so many times to prevent progress I have to resort to something else to show down progress?
Slugging works well because it usually takes two people to solve that problem, and unlike hooking I have zero risk of pallet saves, flashlights, or DS. I definitely signed less when I knew I could just go kick whichever generator I needed to with pop regardless of how many times I kicked it before, which has also been nerfed compared to back in the day.
They've literally made it so we can't slow down gens like we used to. We've completely lost the ability to damage gens after enough damages now. I can't just hold the gift of a strong three gen usually given to me by the survivors.
Can you acknowledge that if I can only kick a generator so many times to prevent progress I have to resort to something else to show down progress?
This is kind of emblematic...
BHVR chose to implement the gen-kick limit at 8 instances. The reason they did so is because, according to their statistics, this was far above the average number of kicks per gen.
You can still stall out a 3-gen effectively and buy yourself a lot of time. You just can't lock it down for a full 60 minutes anymore.
But the idea that this change could hypothetically disadvantage you is apparently enough to put you on tunnelling. This goes against the argument of necessity.
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@BlackRabies said:
Try playing killer yourself. There's a player controlling the killer as well the game can't just favor survivors. If you punish the killer role for just doing their objective, then the survivor players should be punished as well for doing theres.
Best way for survivors to counter tunneling and slugging is to stop D/C over every pity thing and get good at looping and knowing what to do but with solo que you're stuck with random team mates that act like they don't know what to do.
There's a huge difference between survivors that know what to do and how to loop vs a team of potatoes that won't even touch gens.
If you punish the killer role for just doing their objective, then the survivor players should be punished as well for doing theres.
Survivors already are. Co-op penalty, shrinking playing field, and a bunch of perks getting stripped in EGC.
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@OmegaXII said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4030204#Comment_4030204
The idea of punishing killers for tunnelling in 1st iteration is just completely stupid. Killer's job is to kill, and purposefully ignoring survivors who run directly at you, either intentional and misplay, is totally beyond stupid.
Instead of punishing tunneling, buffing killers who don't tunnel is the way to go.
Killer's job is to kill, and purposefully ignoring survivors who run directly at you, either intentional and misplay, is totally beyond stupid.
That's the neat part of 9.2.0's design: You absolutely didn't need to ignore them. Survivors intentionally getting themselves killed would still absolutely favour the killer, since the anti-tunnel benefits weren't nearly strong enough to compensate for a dead survivor. It was the combo of chase extension and the anti-tunnel benefit that made tunnelling not the obvious meta 24/7.
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@The_Count said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4030166#Comment_4030166
The only thing was increasing the charges from 80 to 90.
Gens perks and toolboxes can still be stacked. Gens can be finished solo in 30s and with a partner in 20s.
Hens WR of fast escaping is ridiculous. This should never be possible.
Why Hyperfocus + Stakeout is still a thing?Prove got nerfed, toolboxes got nerfed, toolbox refreshes got nerfed, BNP got nerfed…
So no, +10 seconds was not 'the only thing'.
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@BlackRabies said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4030143#Comment_4030143
Then try to answer this why should killer players be punished for rushing or just doing their objective, but when survivors rush their objective it's completely fine?
If your getting hard tunneled then it's something you just have to accept since your never meant to run for 5 gens. It's up to your skill how much of the killer's time you can waste and hope they drop chase.
but when survivors rush their objective it's completely fine?
There's already been multiple nerfs to it, actually. All of which went down without a hitch.