Firellius
Firellius
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4020601#Comment_4020601
A specific killer complaint? This game is balanced around the existence of tunneling. Recognizing this fact isn't a "sob-story".
There's zero reason for killers to purposely make bad game decisions for the sake of survivor fun, when there's zero expectations for survivors to purposely make bad game decisions for the sake of killer fun.
This game is balanced around the existence of tunneling.
If it was balanced, you wouldn't see winstreaks in the hundreds across the board.
There's zero reason for killers to purposely make bad game decisions for the sake of survivor fun, when there's zero expectations for survivors to purposely make bad game decisions for the sake of killer fun.
No, because when killers find something 'unfun', it gets axed from the game. Gen tapping, fog vials, aura blocking, hell, we even got OTR gutted just recently because killers didn't like survivors 'weaponising' the perk. And now medkit add-ons are on the chopping block, too.
'There's zero expectation', because it's all been taken care of. It's gone so far down the barrel that there've been killer complaints about survivors running away and survivors not running away, practically contemporaneously.
How much more does survivor gameplay need to be flattened, and how much worse do they need to get before killers stop trotting out the 'I can't win, fix it' argument whenever any modicum of attention is given to a problem that's been kicked down the road for nine years?
The reason the survivor complaint is so prominent is because it's not getting fixed.
The reason killer complaints aren't as prominent is because they do get fixed.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4020498#Comment_4020498
How is anyone supposed to believe you care about both sides of the game, when you refer to killer complaints as “sob-story” and “woe-is-me”?
I refer to a specific killer complaint as a sob-story and a woe-is-me. There's plenty of other, valid complaints, but that is not one of them.
It's not even being used as a complaint, it's fielded as a counter-argument.
@CosmicScarab said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4020433#Comment_4020433
First off, that is completely untrue. I know quite a few people who played killer a majority of the time who have quit.
Second, there are no issues killers have listed on the uninstall survey, so if they are uninstalling then the developers would have no way of knowing what their grievances are. It cannot hurt to add those as options so the devs have that information.Yeah, I misspoke. What I meant to say is, it's not an amount that has prompted BHVR to investigate.
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@GeordieKiller said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4020461#Comment_4020461
they shoud do a polling on both sides not one side regardless if it mainly survivors or killers leaving its a fair and accurate data that can give a clearer picture.
What exactly changed for killers in the 6.1.0? the faster weapon recover and break speed and less speed burst for survivors? survivors still can get to the next loop or pallet so does nothing, increase gen times to 90 seconds gen are still going faster forcing killers into tunneling & camping styles so nothing changed there, bloodlust trigger time reduce again does nothing and the perks changes either been reverted, nerfed or rework to not worth running anymore
thats how i can say 6.1.0 changed nothing for killers because they are in fact placebo buffs looks like buffs but does not change gameplay at all for killers
What exactly changed for killers in the 6.1.0? the faster weapon recover and break speed and less speed burst for survivors? survivors still can get to the next loop or pallet so does nothing, increase gen times to 90 seconds gen are still going faster forcing killers into tunneling & camping styles so nothing changed there, bloodlust trigger time reduce again does nothing and the perks changes either been reverted, nerfed or rework to not worth running anymore
This is why I really don't care for the 'killers tunnel because the game's too hard!' sob-story.
Because prior to this patch, killers actually tunnelled less, and they certainly didn't trot out this woe-is-me spiel whenever someone threatened to care about survivor gameplay.
It's only AFTER killers got regression basekitted, got their action speeds increased, got 10 extra seconds on gens, got the on-hit sprint reduced, that killers began arguing that the game was so damn hard that they had no choice but to tunnel!
This objectively made the game easier for killers and it caused a noticeable increase in kill rates.
But if you think none of it made any difference…
Why not revert it? Gens back down to 80 seconds, killer action speed reduced, no on-kick regression, longer on-hit sprint… Shouldn't make a difference, right?
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@GeordieKiller said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4020433#Comment_4020433
sorry but how would you know? i uninstalled and as you can tell by name im an killer player, OP is right the survey should consider both side but it is heavily biased towards survivors which is fact.
It gives bad data and leads to what has happened now horrible and lack of understanding balance decsions devs are clearly putting blinders on with killer issues and give either useless "buff" (15 sec bloodlust) or palcebo buffs that looks like buff but doesnt change anything for killers (the big 6.1.0 patch)
sorry but how would you know? i uninstalled and as you can tell by name im an killer player, OP is right the survey should consider both side but it is heavily biased towards survivors which is fact.
No, I'm offering that as a reason for why they're polling specifically about survivor issues.
If you have 100 killer players and 100 survivor players, and a month down the line you have 90 killer players and 50 survivor players, you're gonna ask why survivors are quitting, not focus on the killers.
It gives bad data and leads to what has happened now horrible and lack of understanding balance decsions devs are clearly putting blinders on with killer issues and give either useless "buff" (15 sec bloodlust) or palcebo buffs that looks like buff but doesnt change anything for killers (the big 6.1.0 patch)
How're you going to accuse anyone of having a horrible understanding of balance while calling 6.1.0. a patch that changed nothing for killers?
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4020377#Comment_4020377
If a player quits the game because they think the killer role is unfun, then their voice deserves to be heard too.
But instead, we get rigged surveys that make it seem like survivor-sided issues are more popular and important.
If a player quits the game because they think the killer role is unfun, then their voice deserves to be heard too.
Sure, but my point is that there aren't any that are uninstalling for that reason.
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@Rudjohns said:
Survivors are not allowed to have good perks
They're not allowed niche perks, either. Anything the killer can see happening is considered unreasonable.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4020259#Comment_4020259
Did you feel personally for the official surveys, that listed multiple survivor-sided problems, but sometimes listed zero killer-sided problems?
Did it occur to you that it's possible that they're not having a killer exodus but they are having a survivor exodus?
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@Raptorrotas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4020306#Comment_4020306
I wasnt talking about what the team is doing, i was talking about each sole survivor. So take what I talked about and mulitply it by the number of survs not currently in a chase. (Should start using a disclaimer lol)
.
Even then, it's a stupid idea to focus on one particular generator. If the killer catches on to that, they can just keep interrupting you and maximise your time wasted.
@Leon_van_Straken said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4020317#Comment_4020317
Thats not right.
A Killer can´t regress a completed gen and a survivor can´t regress a lost hook stage.
A Killer can only regress a non completed gen like a survivor who can regress the chase by healing up.
Edit: You could go even further with my analogy.
Hitting a Survivor with a M1 is like hitting a skill check on a gen.
IF you manage to do so you progress your objective, if you miss it you will need longer to do it.
Hitting a Survivor with a M1 is like hitting a skill check on a gen.
So since we're trying to draw these things as completely even, when can we expect skill checks to complete 50% of a gen?
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@Leon_van_Straken said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4020306#Comment_4020306
I think what he wants to say is the following:
You sit alone on a gen for 80 seconds and you are nearly done with it.
Now the Killer interrupts you by getting close to it and you hide in a locker.
The Killer kicks the gen and goes away.
No Survivor in this world would now say: "Mhhh maybe i should start a new gen and come back to this regressing one when we are at the last gen"
Thats how Killer players see it with Kills. If one Survivor is on death hook and sits injured on a gen with 3 healthy survivors…
No way someone says "Ah I will eliminate him when the Exit Gates are powered"
Doesn't help the analogy because killers can regress a gen but survivors can't 'regress' hookstates.
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@Raptorrotas said:
Dont bother explaining it. Nerfing nurse crusade died down, so tunneling is the new target.
Survivors have the choice to focus 1 gen down or walk around and spread their repair among gens; they choose to focus one, theyre smart and efficient, goodboys! Someone told me that doing the latter is the same as going afk, by the way.
Killers have the choice to focus 1 target or spread the chases/hooks evenly among survivors; they choose to focus 1, toxic cheap easy bad killer!
If the survivors focus one gen down, they're slowed down by default and they're really vulnerable to interruption.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4020009#Comment_4020009
Its because it shows what the devs are thinking.
I don't actually care about what changes are being proposed, as that is not relevant to me at the moment, they aren't in the game, they need to go through PTB where they may receive some changes, or maybe even be scrapped again completely.
What matters to me is the language that the devs are using. I would suggest you watch Choy's video on this stream, its a bit long, but he points out that the language the devs are using indicates (i'm not saying proves) but indicates that they don't actually care about the killer players. Every word, every change, every reason behind every change is geared towarded
- "this is how survivor players feel"
- "we want player agency to matter (then proceeds to only describe things that are survivor things with agence)"
- "players described this as handholding, you know, you get all these cool basekit things for killer thats handholding"
Even in the recent information about the survey, they said camping and tunneling are the reason most players uninstall. Look even at the QUESTIONS on the survey when they adressed slugging a while back asking how players felt about it. Did they even have a SINGLE question that was geared toward killer players asking WHY they tunneled or slugged? Or asking them if they felt like they HAD to?
Again, i'm not saying that the devs are biased, i am not privvy to some secret information that would prove one way or the other. But they constantly keep releasing information, or posing questions, or posing changes and doing so in a way where they are obviously gearing toward survivor players.
Hell even in PATCH NOTES whenever they buff a killer for some completely unknown reason they ALWAYS nerf something about them, literally like every single time. The only exception to this is when they are reverting nerfs they previously did. The last time we had big changes that affected all killers was back in 6.1.0 which was almost 3 and a half YEARS AGO.
Look at their proposed buffs for the skull merchant. Even THOSE have some NERFS in them. WHY? She is horrible, her pick rate is horrible, her kill rate is horrible, and you INTENTIONALLY NERFED HER INTO OBLIVION so that people would NOT play her. A dev literally admitted this on stream, she wasn't nerfed for balance reasons, they just wanted people to stop playing her so people would stop complaining so they could spend time to rework her.
So my question to the devs is simple.
- Where are the surveys asking killer players how they feel about the game?
- Where are the surveys asking killer players why they are uninstalling?
- Where are the changes for killers who are really horribly undertuned that are actually just buffs and not "side grades"
- When are you going to ask killer players about the problems they face and what they would like to see changed?
What matters to me is the language that the devs are using. I would suggest you watch Choy's video on this stream, its a bit long, but he points out that the language the devs are using indicates (i'm not saying proves) but indicates that they don't actually care about the killer players.
You have to be kidding me.
From their 'key takeaways' from the 9.2.0 PTB, they copied complaints verbatim from the killer population. It is legitimately direct control. Even this bit:
"we want player agency to matter (then proceeds to only describe things that are survivor things with agence)"
"players described this as handholding, you know, you get all these cool basekit things for killer thats handholding"
The verbiage is lifted straight from killer player posts.
Keep in mind the context of this, as it's in the announcement that anti-tunnel is effectively scrapped in its entirety to appease exactly these complaints, but because they're trying to not make it look like they're telling survivors to eat dirt, that's a problem?
What are they supposed to do?
It's literally never enough.
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@Paribean said:
The devs keep bringing up that tunneling, camping and slugging are unhealthy parts of the game, but never why they accure. A big component as to why these situations happen is because the killer role just doesn´t have enough tools to combat things like fast gen speeds, rapid healing speeds or just purely map balancing.
When are tool boxes going to be addressed ?
I think this is the biggest reason for tunneling is gens speeds and that the average killer mathematically can not keep up with a commodious tool box and addons like Socket swivels, Wire spool and Brand new part. If you´ve ever played on EU servers then you probably know the dread of seeing a tool box or two in your lobby as killer and going against multiple brand new parts leaving you with no option but to tunnel. Not to mention that even if a survivor doesn´t have a tool box they are going to spawn next to a generator and can instantly start working on it (that is if you don´t have corrupt intervention or mobility), which put the killer at a severe disadvantage.
When are healing speeds going to be addressed ?
In the resent developer stream they have mention that they are going to look at addons like syringes and styptics, but that still doesn´t change the fact that a lot of healing perks this got massively buffed making strategies like hit&run way less impactful. While antiheal perks like sloppy butcher and franklins got heavely nerfed. Which leads killers to do the next best thing which is tunneling and camping.
Are there any options even left ?
If the antitunel, camp and slugging go through I don´t think the killer has any option but to, well play like a bot. Just instakick the freshly added 20 pallets to every map and go after the first survivor you see. Which at that point why not impelement killer bots into normal matches because to be frank, I doubt anyone is going to play a role with no agency and no choices to choose from. An opinion which is already being echoed by content creators taking breaks from playing killer.
Okay, so what if BHVR decides to send toolboxes and medkits the way of the fog vial?
'killers will stop tunnelling!'
Will they? Or will they take away from this that if they tunnel, they get buffs? Because if BHVR keeps bending over backwards to make your gameplay easier every time someone complains about what you're doing, that sure seems like an incentive to do it even more, to me!
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4019402#Comment_4019402
A lot of killers are usless, unless you have like 10k hours in the game. Because of their lack of speed, they waste too much time getting from A to B and in chases, where just a few mistakes can cost them the whole game.
They've been consistently buffing and reworking underpicked killers over the past two years, you can't say this isn't being addressed.
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@Swampfox said:
Have you thought about it? because of every update that hurts the Killer side of things especially weak Killers this encourages them to use stronger killers or do unsportsman like things like slugging or tunneling in response
Pallet density and Generator repair speeds are part of this problem. skill or not. if it is based on skill how come more powerful Killers have became more popular/adopted recently the ones that depending on how you look at them, take more or less skill such as Wesker or nurse because of their high mobility?
Even I started to use them more often because I am not trying to slug as Billy sure Billy can destroy pallets instantly with this chainsaw but he still has to rev up the Chainsaw for longer than it would take to just break the pallet.
it does not help when the Survivor can just constantly pre-drop pallets and move on to the next pallet just 10 feet away doing this for the entire maps length as three generators can pop in the first minute of the game because of gen rush perks and tool boxes
I guarantee there's at least one peron, running weaving spiders in a third of every game anyone plays and on top of this.
the new survivor has not only a generator perk that can be paired with other generator perks and items to constantly get great skill checks that can complete the generator in half the time by Yourself.
But a perk that encourages you to be stealthy and not even take up chases but also lets you escape from chases extremely easy because you leave barely any trace or tracks to follow or go off of after the Survivor runs away faster than majority of killers to somewhere out of Sight, but can also be paired with perks that do the same thing without any requirement
I could literally run a circle inside of the shack and have my scratch marks disappear before I can Circle back to them because they disappear just around 3 seconds or less thats about the same amount of time it takes for a killer to damage a generator in
https://youtu.be/10GSoLZ0qb8?si=Omd6pv7XvSzERSQ6
Let me know Your thoughts on this one
Have you thought about it? because of
every update that hurts the Killerside of things especially weak Killers thisencourages them to use stronger killers ordo unsportsman like things likesluggingortunnelingin responseHi, welcome to the forums, you must be new here.
So a long time before you joined, killers actually did tunnel a bit less and then we got 6.1.0, which was stacked to the brim with killer buffs to help settle what was, at the time, quite survivor-sided gameplay.
In response to these hefty buffs which dramatically bumped the kill rate, tunnelling massively increased.
It's got nothing to do with any 'nerfs', and everything to do with player mentality and ease of access.
Bring back 5 second DS.
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@Rickprado said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4017164#Comment_4017164
I disagree. I think perk with very strong effects that serve for more than one purpose can definitely harm the game's overall health. Shoulder the Burden and Reassurance are far too strong if we admit they can be used against a killer who is not tunnelling or camping, respectively.
For Reassurance, its always a risk to save your teammate since the killer can go after them and just sacrifice/kill/put back on hook the recently hooked person. So there are some scenarios where leaving the person on the hook, finishing the gen and them going for the save give survivors a great advantage, specially if they break a trigen with this. What Reassurance does is turn this from a very risky play into a almost no risk play, since you would be in a hurry before your teammate goes into next stage but if you have 30 free extra seconds you don't need to care too much, even if the killer comes to defend the hook.
For Shoulder the Burden, combining it with Vigil make it so has no real downside since the exposed effect will be very short. And can really turn the tide of a match because it can remove one person from the death hook condition. So, being able to use it against non-tunneling killers is not a good design choice. It would be if a perk like Forced Penance work on "normal" chases (without bodyblocking). The perk would be far too strong and need some changes.
When i say healthy i mean its don't have a very strong effect that can be abusable by certain killers or coordinated teams.
Shoulder the Burden and Reassurance are far too strong if we admit they can be used against a killer who is not tunnelling or camping, respectively.
Are they, though?
Reassurance becomes very situational when there's no camping, and even in the situation that it would work, it merely softens a bad situation, it doesn't fix it. It's still a situation that survivors are way better off avoiding in its entirety.
Shoulder the Burden barely has an upside if the killer isn't tunnelling, with the only one that comes to mind being Deliverance.
A lot of these kinds of discussions get hung up on the fact that a perk -can- be used, without properly exploring what the impact is in the situations where it does get used. Similar to how people were saying that survivors were going to intentionally die to trigger the repair speed boost in the anti-tunnel changes, despite the fact that a 30% repair speed buff is never going to compensate for a survivor willingly kicking themselves out of the game.
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@Dokta_Carter said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4016545#Comment_4016545
WhaWhat i want is a hard fix. Not a shift then fix, because if they shift it, it will take longer to fix the problem.
"Why does it feel like C or Y killer needs to do this"
Should be answered just as much, and with equal appeal to
"Why do survivors feel they have to use x or y perk"
WWe Need both sides to enjoy the game. And both sides should have equal say. But we got entitled people on both sides ruining discussion
What i want is a hard fix. Not a shift then fix, because if they shift it, it will take longer to fix the problem.
"Why does it feel like C or Y killer needs to do this"
Should be answered just as much, and with equal appeal to
"Why do survivors feel they have to use x or y perk"
Thing is that over the years, we've had quite a few fixes implemented to resolve killer problems, but tunnelling has been an issue for nine years, without any fix in sight.
If you're doing five patches in a row that only cater to killers, and then when there's one patch that caters to survivors, you bring up that treatment should be equal, that's kinda missing the mark.
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@stikyard said:
Was on another forum and a Killer was complaining about the pallet density. Okay, I get it, it makes a lot of the roster harder to play.
One of the responses and I quote, "And people wonder why Killer's aren't playing the event for fun." Which seemed to get a lot of likes.
I could only wonder, if you aren't playing for fun, why are you playing at all? To ruin somone else's fun? This seems to be the legit answer.
When the Killer hard tunnels, even when the Survivors are literally throwing themselves in front of them to try to save the guy getting tunneled. Killer's that never even seem to interact with the event mechanics and just sweat the 4k.
You guys are gaming like you are mad. Take a break, touch some grass. Stop, get some help.
I could only wonder, if you aren't playing for fun, why are you playing at all?
To be fair, there's extrinsic FOMO motivation, and lots of people play games out of habit long after they lose their enjoyment to it. I think that the 'go next' epidemic is essentially the survivor side of that coin.
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Wait, so the official stats are going to exclude a ton of survivor losses? This is going to massively deflate the stats on kill rates.
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4016678#Comment_4016678
Mechanics that you claim directly funnel people into tunnelling.
No. Read 11th time again. Assymetry of the genre encourages tunneling as meta. And assymetry is not a mechanic. It’s not supported by mechanic. It’s not compromised by mechanics either, it’s compromised by format. You don’t even understand what actually word mechanic means, basically. Because at first tried to relate my speech of assymetry with mechanic.
Somehow that format of the game causing specific behaviour is bad for you, yet slapping additional mechanic without fixing the asymmetrical pressure that creates the incentive is something you find reasonable.
At that point, you’re not arguing about the truth of the system, just the scope of intervention. You are just playing with words again. Think what suits you, but I wouldn’t even count such words worthy to discuss anymore.
And assymetry is not a mechanic. It’s not supported by mechanic. It’s not compromised by mechanics either, it’s compromised by format.
It's not supported or comprised of mechanics?
What do you think gens are? Why do you think gen timers are the way they are? Why do you think loops are the way they are? The entire game is built around that core concept with all of the mechanisms constructed from that foundation.
Having four players on the field doesn't create pressure by the mere fact that there's four. It's that the four are interacting with mechanics that push them towards their win condition that does.
If you're in a game where you know, for an absolute fact, that three of the four survivors aren't doing anything, are you going to feel 'pressure' while you're chasing the fourth, simply by the fact that you're outnumbered?
yet slapping additional mechanic without fixing the asymmetrical pressure that creates the incentive is something you find reasonable.
Firstly, this 'asymmetrical pressure' and its significance are a presupposition on your part.
Secondly, and far more importantly: This PTB in particular actually did address the asymmetrical pressure. That's what the hooksplitting incentives were about. And I never once argued that they should be struck from the PTB or reduced in any way.
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4016637#Comment_4016637
I didn’t say here tunneling is a mechanic. I just said that assymetrical attract people to playin specific way. We don’t have pro tunnel mechanics
Because it’ s logical
It's literally my argument here. Just stop playing for words and finally learn to look at context.
A mechanic is a specific rule or system of interactionTunneling is a format of play players choose
If tunnelling was a mechanic in this game, it worked like perks or what we’ve seen in ptb.
If you still struggling to understand my point because loves to imply on my reading and writing comprehension, because Eglish is’t my native language, here some basics of GD that you struggling to understand so much. Because it's soulless machine explanation, you barely can complain on some wrong writing or comprehensionhttps://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/JW5FYY1BY6X1/img-1860.jpeg
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/0ALHZHMBW49E/img-1861.jpeg
Read other my messages 10 times if you struggling to understand context.
Edit: assymetry is not a mechanic. It's a format. PvP isn't’ mechanic, it’s a genre. Tunneling is people behaviour, not mechanic. Considering that all of this exist and creating mechanics around it what I’m focusing on. Anti tunneling isn’t building gameplay around it, it’s ignoring why it happens and solely focusing on removing it from the game. Yet removing people’s behaviour that was caused by core format of game is just playing along with tribalism and admitting one side “frustration” prevalence. Removing a player-driven strategy that compensates for structural asymmetry. Keep it in mind
I didn’t say here tunneling is a mechanic.
I didn't say you said tunnelling is a mechanic, I said you argued that it's a direct product of mechanics.
We don’t have pro tunnel mechanics
That's debatable. It can reasonably be argued that if the entire game is set up to funnel players into tunnelling, as you claim, then one can argue that these mechanics that do so are 'pro tunnel mechanics'.
assymetry is not a mechanic.
No, but it's comprised of mechanics. Mechanics that you claim directly funnel people into tunnelling.
Tunneling is people behaviour, not mechanic
I agree. But that's also why I don't think you can argue that anti-tunnel can never be balanced, since correcting behaviour can be done in ways that don't affect balance. I'm pretty sure we've seen this with old BBQ & Chili and WGLF, both of which rewarded substantial BP bonuses based on certain actions taken. Stripping them of the BP bonus did not affect balance, but it did affect behaviour.
Anti tunneling isn’t building gameplay around it, it’s ignoring why it happens and solely focusing on removing it from the game.
How is it ignoring 'why it happens'?
If the mechanics that comprise the asymmetrical nature of DBD are the reason tunnelling happens, then surely, adjusting those mechanisms is addressing the reason why it happens?
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@Rickprado said:
Problem is what this games consider "high MMR". There are many videos about this but the soft cap of MMr is very easy to achieve.
The 4 comp surv swf is the same "high mmr" as 4 friends that won some game again some killers. The same applies to killer as the pig main that plays casually is in the same mmr bracket that the comp nurse doing winstreaks or Momo's blight.
Really, the matchmaking is so atrocius that is hard to discuss balance with data since what BHvr calls "High MMr" players is so heterogenous that its hard to draw a solid conclusion from it.
Problem is what this games consider "high MMR". There are many videos about this but the soft cap of MMr is very easy to achieve.
IIRC, the 'high MMR' bracket from stats is different from the soft cap. I think it was clarified once that it represents less than five percent of the playerbase.
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it’s in psychology when u play alone against team. Reduce quantity to feel less overwhelmed. Even when tunneling was completely removed from many other assym games due to various dev decision to fight with logic, new players always had a tendency to “target”. Because it’ s logical. “I’m alone and it’s 4 of them in different places. I need to do something with it… probably making it 3 vs 1”
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4016434#Comment_4016434
The hook states mention isn't about you specifically, it's a general example. My point is that a very handoldy buff quietly comes to killler--one that was clearly meant to be part of the anti-tunnel--and the killers just rub their greedy hands together
Why using this arguement in our convo anyway? Do I support this? No. What’s it makes with my words or how it gives more weight to anti tunnel proposal? It’s just even more support my position about tag war and that people fight over it rather than actual balancing, and that it should stop.
I don't think these people are a good reflection of anything though. Even if the skill is even, they're too high-performing
To shut down this high performing they playing with heavy restrictions that you would never see in ordinary match. It’s not about what BHVR looking at. It’s about should balance look like this. It’s about what it shows. It shows you can’t play without tunnel on high level. In their matches you actually can see how balancing work.
So looking from your own perspective. Should highly difficult mechanics killers be removed only because they aren’t for casuals? Can you do this? Can you delete nurse? Can you delete SFW in this game? Spread up, gen efficiency? Everything that usualy defines highly effective play? This game stopped being party game as soon as Nurse arrived and first comp appeared . Do you like it or not, it’s a fact. What makes tunneling so special that “you shouldn’t orient on what high play needs/use”, but as soon as something else that benefiting survivors on high play you don’t ask for it to be removed at the same time? Like sfw… oh yeah, maybe because you are playing sfw yourself. Just don’t use its actual advantage most of the time. But why people have to handicap themselves as much as you do? Just because? Why me not handicapping other players on this forum demanding playing without meta or on simple killers?
People should stop complaining on high perforimg play. It always be people simply better in this game and do you like it or not, they know this game better than you. It’s fine to complain on gap between players and asking to make it less evident. It’s not fine doing it through enforcing handicapping and constant shaming . You can adjust initial mechanics only, but touching way of play - it’s not a nice way and pure tribalism and personal hate. And that thing that u put some imaginitive numbers of 5% of survivors being on top cap just shows how you want to highlight that your opinion suddenly should matter more just because in advance.
It’s not sweats ruined your matches. It’s either you can’t adapt to them and demanding them to change instead, either matchmaking being bad, if you like this “adaptation” arguement so much. Or two stuff at the same time. How antitunnel deal with it? Yet again… Doesn’t . Just additional figure to this equation.
But what is and isn't handholdy? Iri add-ons? Endurance and exhaustion perks? Exposed and aura perks? Bloodlust? The whole damn game is handholdy. I can't tell you how often I've won killer matches because of perks, and I'm not running meta. Survivor, not so much. That's more small, immediate advantages, at least for me.
Handholding is when you expecting game dealing with sweats through mechanics by artificially restricting them and not adjusting your tools. It’s by always relying on items and strong tiers . Handholding is playing Ghoul and expecting hight rates just because he is simple and strong , if you want more precise example.
Handholding is wanting/choosing something and expecting it’ll deal with what you want. Making tunneling unattractive or less effective not through the play, but just… because. Handholding is expecting try hards to get easy on you just because you play game differently and blaming them in the way how they play, expecting game deal with your frustration by restricting other side or even punishing.
And again. Do anti tunnel deal with stuff that considered op/handholding? S tiers? Flaws in balances? Do anti tunnel dealing with anything beside tunneling being frustrating? It’s like asking for Ghoul to stay as it is because it’s harder to play on Nurse and Blight for you, but you want something close to their effectiveness. Yes, it’s less frustrating to deal with necessity of improving in micro/macro, to outplay opponents . You don’t need to deal with busted items or serious sfws that much as others, yet mechanically it stays as simple as some Ghostface or Wraith. Does it make Ghoul less braindead or about balancing? No. It’s initial mechanic.
Adapting only seems to be expected of survivors.
This thread already showed that many players expecting this from killers when themselves barely adapting. To what additional thing survivors had to adapt? Where I messaged here: you have to adapt to Ghoul concept, ha ha? You have to adapt to Haddonfield, ha ha ? No, I didn’t say you have to adapt to x thing that is mechanic in this game. Because such stuff is actually discussable. Again, why you ignoring my statement both sides have to adapt and as example push initial game mechanic when I was discussing a way how people play in the context?
Do you really want to argue with pallet density adaptation? Why again, we compare initial system with way how people play? Why we compare pallet density and tunneling? Because they both bring benefits? But why ignoring their difference? One thing was added through mechanics in game. Other thing is how people play. Maybe it works in your reality where try hards is your biggest issue only because of the way how they play, but I make difference between something like pallets being here by default and tunneling becoming a decision committing to it or not…
Like…. That’s the core principle of handholding issue… when you expect adaptaion happening through mechanics. It’s a big difference giving base kit Kindred and base kit DS. First thing gives opportunity to utilise resources- when and who and how rescuing. It doesn’t adapt survivors with concept of rescuing through handholding. It provides them opportunity to manage time. They can fail with it through wrong decisions. Second thing just providing additional resource for free. You can’t fail with using base kit DS through wrong decisions. It’s always be right use despite you even understanding why it’s here and how it works.
Edit: Honestly, I'm tired of repeating the same things. It literally all comes down to one argument. The anti-tunnel is still just a desire for us versus them, and it doesn't solve the problem beyond a tug-of-war. If you think otherwise, so be it. If it suits you, you're absolutely right. I don't have the resources to repeat the same things to the local forum residents, who seem to live in a bubble of perpetual tribalism but try to deny it and present their opinions as the voice of the community and cold, hard facts. Whenever the next fact always boils down to "But x side y thing and this is unfair, so I need z unfair thing to push unfair advantage to my side." It's probably cool to demand other players play the same way you do, just because. Not because you actually play better/use effective play/ trying. Just… just play like me… just because… blah blah, you are try hard and spoiled my casual mood, how dare you not treating game as same as me... I don't need this attitude or treatment… honestly. If I was casually playing and some sweat without personal life went to my match, I would rather blame matchmaking instead of going and crying on forum how evil this people are and that some BHVR police should put them in jail and reinforce new law… Stop expecting win against player who doesn’t handicap themselves by chill behaviour made my life ten times easier when I started to play online games.
So again: if you wish to hear this words, you are 100 times right. I would prefer to play game itself or focus on game rather than player behaviour discussion, because all this thread gave me realisation it never worthy my time. Not my interest
But why ignoring their difference? One thing was added through mechanics in game. Other thing is how people play.
Can't really argue that difference when you, yourself, argued that the way people play is the immediate product of mechanics in game.
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Personally, I had the idea of allowing Shattered Hope to break a dull totem and activate its aura reading once during the match (Maybe earning a second use of this somehow, like hooking all survivors once) in boon radius around that totem. It'd also allow it to synergise with Pentimento.
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@BorisDDAA said:
So swf escape rate dropped from 48% to 40% or what
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/HGZH856A5OY5/dbd-stats-q12025-survivorescaperates.png
It has dropped, but 48% is only the high MMR section, which I believe is supposed to be less than 5% of the playerbase.
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4016114#Comment_4016114
But okay, let's talk about the game, and about tunnelling. You keep mentioning these good survivor players but I can hop on a killer I've never played as and get a 4k against decent players right now, even with no knowledge of that killer, if I hard tunnel someone out at 5 gens. It's too easy. The expectation is for survivors to become not just fantastic players, but fantastic team players (and with little resources to do so in soloq), just to counter even mid to low opponents. The power balance is off because of this tactic.
But is it actually so? Tunnelling is about capitalising mistakes. Solo Q just tends to make mistakes more and they are less forgiving. And it’s how it's supposed to work, but it doesn't mean they deserve handholding and turn of their mistakes as punishment for killer if they decide to capitalize it.
It doesn't mean every game should evolve around high play. And it doesn't in this game. Nothing prevents people from trying out different builds, or meme around. But artificial mechanics like busted S tier, new pallet density heavily backfire and give people tools they don't actually deserve. Mobility on killers forgiving macro mistakes. Spammable power forgets micro mistakes. Genrush perk forgets poor efficiency from the start. 4 chase build forgets the lack of clean movements. But you can genrush and fail because you were too greedy. You can tunnel and lose because we're holding too long a chase and the survivors capitalised mistake. So is tunnelling a problem here, or people getting frustrated that the other side can heavily punish for misplay or mistake? And because it's a 1 vs 4 thing, if one survivor made a mistake, everyone has to share responsibility for it.
So it doesn't have a real reason to scrap it from the ground. Anti-tunnel PTB wasn’t about helping QoL. It wasn’t about fixing the issues I mentioned before. Moreover, it gifted haste power creep to killers like Spirit, Clown, Springtrap, providing actually cheesy gameplay, because you don't need to use your brain a lot moving with additional haste, making every first hit free. While for actually poor mobility killers it wasn't enough most of the time. Making base kit DS also does not solve every one of those issues, everything that includes “anti” and provides so much for free as anti-tunnel does it would likely be just a new game mechanic that plays the game instead of the player. Perks and powers are already doing this on a great level, and you are just suggesting adding another layer to this. Its initial mechanics are broken, not the way people play the game. As I have told and will continue to claim, anti-tunnel is an extreme change of meta in tag war and indulging specific sentiment. If it's the initial reason to bypass balancing, then you can’t balance it.
You don't need to be a fantastic player to avoid or try to counterplay stuff like tunnelling. Moreover, you can play in a way that makes tunnelling a desperate move or turns out to be a killer mistake and capitalise on it. You don’t need to have voice chat to play decently in a team. Your team have to consist of the same level and you should have some resemblance to comms and that's enough to cover the majority of cases. I’m literally playing solo Q myself. My movements aren't clear, I don't bring a full meta package, yet nothing prevented me from getting a solid 50% ER which is already above what devs are aiming for the average player. So as much as you can say you can comfortably play without tunnelling, as much as I can say it's not an unmanageable thing.
If a player is extremely casual, they shouldn’t expect average rates. Because SBMM doesn't work in this game and you would likely be put in a place with a more experienced person or some cursed region and busted mechanics hell. Casual players should ask for more opportunities to play casually rather than asking for hand hand-holding mechanism against other players just because they handicap themselves and expect others to do the same.
If top cap players in more sterile conditions like the same skill set, no repetitive perks showing killer can’t function well without tunnelling, then it's true. Do you like it or not, but their showcases have more validity for consideration because they at least try to manage balancing in custom while ordinary matches can’t do this more cleanly. They are providing more cold facts.
Do u wish to balance the game, or balance the game around being broken? It's a huge difference. If you're asking for the last one, I’m not sharing your principle.
When this game has more “sterility” in a play, maybe it would be an opportunity to actually prove that you can balance anti-tunnel PTB around. Right now the only argument is literally:
“But I can play without it”
And I can play with it as a survivor. Wow. So who is right?
“But many people wish for it”
And many people don't. Wow again, who are you gonna prioritise then?
It's impossible to present such argumentation objectively. They are still about emotional sentiment.
Tunnelling is about capitalising mistakes.
Earlier, you claimed it's just the logical conclusion from the way the game's built, not the product of 'mistakes'.
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4015964#Comment_4015964
It is practically impossible to argue that anti-tunnel is impossible to balance
Quote? Okay. Here above. If you have hard time with reading again and need quotes of stuff you messaged an hour before… Just to get to know - talking that some concept impossible to balance is also arguing about balancing. You can’t be selective in this terms. Everything is possible to be argued in this regard or nothing.
Psychology is not balance. How you 'feel' about things doesn't change the balance of it. Whether you have a 50% winrate that feels good, or you have one that feels bad, both are balanced.
This is assymetrical game. It should be balanced around assymetry. 50% rate should be justified by actual play and not handholding as it was on PTB. Last official stats from devs showed 40/60% average rates. Devs claimed them as what they always wish for their game. Psychology is just a way to explain why it's happening.
What, in those 9 years, have they attempted?
- Bt base kit.
- Anti face camp system and Remove of hook grabs to give more opportunities to rescue to prevent tunneling being actually free.
- The anti-tunnel perks existed since first licences chapter.
If
YOUwant to claim that none of them can work, it is up to
YOUto dismantle each and every single one of them. You are the one making the claim, you back it up.
I did in post. You ignored or said “it is not actually true, it's working”, but when I asked for proofs, you firstly backed up and failed to provide it. Because you didn't play PTB or just refused to show gameplay. Anti tunnel works on it's own, doesn't work with balancing.Hens showcase pulled one of the most broken killer as Blight with extremely handicapped survivor team showed. If BROKEN killer can’t deal with this system, not broken killer can’t compete at all. Only if their opponents are acknowledgely worse by skill set in advance of game had broken rgn. After this they put other problematic killer post rework as Clown. No chances. Person on killer was as experienced as his opponents. So again - it is players playing against system and not against players, pushing broken stuff more forward. If you are claiming that anti tunnel can be balanced, it's your duty to prove it. Which you ultimately failed. Create a custom game in future PTB, provide balancing for match, select players of the same level. After this you’ll be able to prove it can be balanced at least in ideal sterile condition. Saying “base kit pop is enough” isn't a proof of this system to work, especially when people explain why. Hens gameplay showecase proved simply better than this. Many videos proved it better.
I’ll ask again - why this system have to exist beside just emotional demand. And why this demand is healthy and prevalent one. And why we pretending it’s people false they refuse to adapt to changes, while the only reason this PTB was proposed is some people failing to adapt to tunneling. “Adapt” argument doesn't work here because backfires.
Quote? Okay. Here above.
Okay, perfect illustration of the problem! Pay attention, read up:
Here is what I actually said:
It is practically impossible to argue that anti-tunnel is impossible to balance
And here is what you put quotation marks around as if paraphrasing what I said:
So, “arguing about balancing” is practically impossible
I want you to take a look at the following two sentences, side by side, and see if you can understand the difference between the two:
It is impossible to argue about balance
It is impossible to argue that anti-tunnel is impossible to balance
Do you see the problem?
Because these two sentences are not, in any way, the same and do not convey anything even remotely close to one another.
Do you understand this?
This is assymetrical game. It should be balanced around assymetry. 50% rate should be justified by actual play and not handholding as it was on PTB. Last official stats from devs showed 40/60% average rates. Devs claimed them as what they always wish for their game. Psychology is just a way to explain why it's happening.
Non-sequitur. This is entirely irrelevant.
Bt base kit.
Anti face camp system and Remove of hook grabs to give more opportunities to rescue to prevent tunneling being actually free.
The anti-tunnel perks existed since first licences chapter.
You managed to come up with three things, one of which isn't even an anti-tunnel thing but an anti-facecamp thing.
9 years for 2 ideas is not any reasonable effort.
Again: "We've tried nothing and are all out of ideas."
I did in post.
No, you didn't. You didn't list any possible anti-tunnel, you only addressed the one that was in the PTB. You haven't explored any other options.
I’ll ask again - why this system have to exist beside just emotional demand.
Because, like it or not, games are supposed to be fun and engaging. And three people getting stuck on M1 simulator while one person gets chased out of the game in record time with no chance to do anything else is not 'fun'.
And why we pretending it’s people false they refuse to adapt to changes, while the only reason this PTB was proposed is some people failing to adapt to tunneling. “Adapt” argument doesn't work here because backfires.
No, it doesn't backfire because the problem isn't with tunnelling being too strong, it's with tunnelling being boring as heck. You can adapt to it, sure, but that doesn't make it fun to play into and thus doesn't fix the problem.
It only 'backfires' to your mind because you reject any argument of gameplay design. That is, until it comes to defending tunnelling, in which case 'killer psychology' is suddenly irrefutable proof of tunnelling being a necessity for the game.
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@fussy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4015958#Comment_4015958
English is not my first language and I'm not good at articles, so maybe in this case you are right. But does "an" add meaning of uncertainty in this case, if it's still upcoming PTB and not one of the upcoming PTB?
Yes, 'an' is picking one from a collection. But there's only one PTB that's the first next, so using 'an' wouldn't work.
You don't say 'an first-next PTB' because there's only one. 'An' basically states that there's multiple options, which there can't be if it's the literal first-next PTB.
But yeah, this says it will be an upcoming PTB, but not necessarily the first one. It can be, too, but given the wording, I think it's unlikely.
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4015910#Comment_4015910
So, “arguing about balancing” is practically impossible because this game is too complicated, but pushing this mechanic live to complicate stuff even more - is a thing we need. Okay. I understood that everything you can’t talk about is impossible to argue because it’s too complicated for you then. So the only thing you are keep doing blaming people they are wrong just because they don’t accept a fundamentals of what you are asking for
It is practically impossible to argue that anti-tunnel is impossible to balance on a conceptual level because DBD is far too complicated and has far too many moving parts to make such a claim and give it any kind of basis.
anti-tunnel has so many possible variations
Where this variations in studio? Because the only thing you were doing was defending already existing PTB concept. I haven’t seen any of other proposal from you. Like actually different variation that could work
If you're not willing to put in the effort to even consider the mere
possibilityof a balanced anti-tunnel system, how is your feedback not going to get tainted by that very premise?
It’s impossible. As much as it’s impossible to balance 1 vs 4 gameplay. That’s why.
it’s in psychology when u play alone against team. Reduce quantity to feel less overwhelmed. Even when tunneling was completely removed from many other assym games due to various dev decision to fight with logic, new players always had a tendency to “target”. Because it’ s logical. “I’m alone and it’s 4 of them in different places. I need to do something with it… probably making it 3 vs 1”Players always choose effectiveness if they don’t handicap and handhold. Saying “u have to play less effective just because other part feels frustrated encountering it” is not making game fair. It’s making the game unintuitive and players brain turned off chase auto pilot machines. Thanks nuh. If u want to focus on pure chase and cancel any sense of logical macro knowledge, than this game shouldn’t be 1 vs 4 from the start. Or macro should be absolutely the same for both sides, which isn’t in this game, because it’s assymetry.
And anti tunnel on PTB didn’t provide at least nerfed version of such effectiveness. It put everything to linier and limited gameplay. Macro gameplay died from killer side in sake of emotional comfort of other, yet this macro didn’t die for survivors. Moreover, it was buffed and more easier to pull at. So nothing was actually compinsated. Hook incentives is a crutch of this system, not an actually working solution.
So far, neither the developers nor the community have been able to figure out how to balance this "anti" system, and at a high level of play, it simply doesn't work. Because you said it yourself—the game is very complex. Matches vary. The anti-system ignores the fact that the game is complex and should be played differently. The anti-system sets a robotic template, ignores the game's previous complexity, and turns everything into a mess, with people playing against mechanics, not against other people. It sounds as pointless as removing all anti-tunnel perks and BTs and pretending the tunnel doesn't exist. Both of these positions are extreme and potentially can’t be balanced. Because they are an extreme version of position. At the very least, the anti-system ignored the fact that the tunnel could have been caused by the survivors themselves. Mistakes were simply ignored, and responsibility for them was placed on the other side. You either forgive mistakes and follow the requested template, or you punish them, but the system then penalizes you.
Again. Do you want an anti-tunnel? It's better to create a different game altogether, where the concept of targeting isn't required at all and isn't effective thinking. Which means anything but 1 vs 4
If DBD failed after 9 years in removing tunnelling, maybe then they need to build gameplay around it then. Which they never did actually. We simply don’t have actual mechanics that considering such play, beside crutch perks and base kit BT. It’s not considering as a game sequence in match and never was.I feel I don’t need to answer on this nonsense anymore. Because I’ll have to repeat same stuff over and over again.
So, “arguing about balancing” is practically impossible
Quote me.
Where this variations in studio?
If YOU want to claim that none of them can work, it is up to YOU to dismantle each and every single one of them. You are the one making the claim, you back it up.
it’s in psychology when u play alone against team.
Psychology is not balance. How you 'feel' about things doesn't change the balance of it. Whether you have a 50% winrate that feels good, or you have one that feels bad, both are balanced.
Reduce quantity to feel less overwhelmed. Even when tunneling was completely removed from many other assym games due to various dev decision to fight with logic, new players always had a tendency to “target”. Because it’ s logical. “I’m alone and it’s 4 of them in different places. I need to do something with it… probably making it 3 vs 1”
Players always choose effectiveness if they don’t handicap and handhold. Saying “u have to play less effective just because other part feels frustrated encountering it” is not making game fair. It’s making the game unintuitive and players brain turned off chase auto pilot machines. Thanks nuh. If u want to focus on pure chase and cancel any sense of logical macro knowledge, than this game shouldn’t be 1 vs 4 from the start. Or macro should be absolutely the same for both sides, which isn’t in this game, because it’s assymetry.
And anti tunnel on PTB didn’t provide at least nerfed version of such effectiveness. It put everything to linier and limited gameplay. Macro gameplay died from killer side in sake of emotional comfort of other, yet this macro didn’t die for survivors. Moreover, it was buffed and more easier to pull at. So nothing was actually compinsated. Hook incentives is a crutch of this system, not an actually working solution.
And in all of this, you have not mentioned kill or win rates, and thus balance, even once. All of this is pure speculation on the subject of game design. None of it is substantiated either, because guess what?
I never played like that.
So your assertions about how people play the game is already proven to be a generalisation at best. Pretty sure @crogers271 and @cogsturning have both also told you that they don't play like that. And others have said the same.
But again, none of this is even touching on balance. All of it is gameplay design, not balance. If you want to prove that it is fundamentally destroying balance, talk about kill rates and win rates, not killer sentiment or game feel. Neither are those are in the domain of balance.
If DBD failed after 9 years in removing tunnelling, maybe then they need to build gameplay around it then.
Quick question: What, in those 9 years, have they attempted?
Because unlike the list of possible ways to implement anti-tunnel, the actual anti-tunnel implemented into the game is a very, VERY short list.
This is almost literally, word-for-word, 'We have tried nothing and are all out of ideas'.
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@fussy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4015925#Comment_4015925
I understand that you're reading what you want to read, but it's not that hard to spend 10 seconds on fact checking, I promise.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/VRZ9X2OGTVFR/image.png
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/TOKVYPG9LAMA/7b7c98e5b7-2b15-46d0-ae68-3b3daa58b394-7d.png
Dude.
It says 'AN upcoming PTB' not 'THE upcoming PTB'. You are proving me right.
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@fussy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4015475#Comment_4015475
I can't read this without disgust. Every second comment someone twists the facts to make them convenient for his opinion, ignores bunch of things that make his position less convenient, or just blatantly lies.
And peak is these people "oh they never will test changes again, because they afraid of killer reaction blablabla". I mean, either you didn't read announce after PTB or just intentionally ignore the fact that they said literally in this announce "WE WILL TEST THESE CHANGES ONE THE NEXT PTB AGAIN" and came here for nothing but us vs them doomposting and pointless crying. And we all know which one it is. Unbelievable cringe.Just noticed this, by the way:
ignore the fact that they said literally in this announce "WE WILL TEST THESE CHANGES ONE THE NEXT PTB AGAIN"
IIRC, yhey didn't say 'the next PTB', they said 'a future PTB'.
Just like the twins and skull merchant reworks will be in 'a future PTB'.
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4015902#Comment_4015902
So just because I told you can’t really balance concept of anitunnel, it canceled everything I was talking about how unbalanced this PTB was with provided examples? Like haste builds on already fast killers? Poor pop incentives? Hardly working braindead base kit bbq? Heavy nerf of slowdown and shadow buff of genrush? Elusive abuse? Braindead ghostnotes which with combination of lightweight and sprint burst a new rat meta? Simply a death of any way to create pressure for killer aside of raw chases?
Yeah sure. My post wasn’t about idea how to push weird anti proposals. My post was about how unbalanced this concept is from the ground and that the game should focus on solo QoL instead. That’s the point — I was talking about how this concept works just as braindead tag shift meta rather than actual QoL, but it’s straightforwardly hard for you to accept that idea of anti tunnel from the ground is breaking balance in the gameSo just because I told you can’t really balance concept of anitunnel, it canceled everything I was talking about how unbalanced this PTB was with provided examples?
No, you started from the conclusion and then your argumentation wound itself into completely baseless twists and turns to try and support it.
It is practically impossible to argue that anti-tunnel is impossible to balance on a conceptual level because DBD is far too complicated and has far too many moving parts to make such a claim and give it any kind of basis.
But like I illustrated, your argumentation just openly divorces itself from reality in order to reach for the conclusion you desperately want to be true above all. If you're willing to go to such lengths, your feedback is just not trustworthy because if you're willing to lie to yourself like that, you are definitely ready to lie to everyone else.
but it’s straightforwardly hard for you to accept that idea of anti tunnel from the ground is breaking balance in the game
How is it not for you?
Because the base concept of anti-tunnel has so many possible variations and forms and different ways that it can be filled in that it would take years to dismantle every single possible form of anti-tunnel and declare that, truly, there is no possible way of doing anti-tunnel without breaking the balance of the game.
It's suffused with 'We've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas' energy.
If you're not willing to put in the effort to even consider the mere possibility of a balanced anti-tunnel system, how is your feedback not going to get tainted by that very premise?
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4015897#Comment_4015897
Maybe read a whole DM, where on my messages that my post about balancing PTB, you always tried to say “I’m not here to discuss balance, I’m discussing the need of this PTB”. So, simply shifting goal post to the field you comfortable to discuss at. Which is never about balancing and always about emotional feedback
Again, your post had nothing to do with balancing the PTB and instead sought to supplant it with something else that wouldn't fix the issue. I didn't even come into that thread discussing any of that, I only pointed out a faulty argument and you spun it into all of this.
I want to set a challenge for you: From here on out, any time you want to make any claim of what I said, include the accompanying quote. Because you can't be trusted to read my words and not horribly misinterpret them.
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4015867#Comment_4015867
I can’t quote out personal messages, so go to reread this again in DM, mr “quote me”. Putting out that English isn’t my native language is baffling. You always backed up with hypothesis and misunderstandings or straightforward “it isn’t” without any explanation just because can’t deal with direct discussions that put aside sentiments
So again. As much as you yourself told that my feedback doesn’t matter, as much I never seen your words about this theme actually decent in any regards. Why I should listen person who bring emotional regards of anti tunnel PTB under the post about balancing considerations and demanding asking only this. Then cheaply trying to argue with this balancing, and when I asked you about proofs of your “this incentives is good enough” “nothing was actually problematic”, you backed up with that your personal experience doesn’t reflect actual picture. And it simply turned out u barely played this PTB and game itself
It's literally impossible to discuss this with you. Even under this thread, you literally wrote to someone, "These people won't change their minds anyway, so we should stop listening to them because other people are asking for something different." Listen. If people despise concept from the start, it doesn’t mean they didn’t try PTB and can’t provide feedback. They can provide feedback more likely even better, comparing to people who didn’t play at all at least. It’s just your attempt to shut their opinion down only because they don’t appreciate this concept from the start.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/XM41K217FNKM/img-1785.png
Like this whole post as many of your others is about emotions and speaking out for others. Do you really expect people being able to dispute with you in normal way when the initial ground of discussion is that low? I never had such hard time keeping restraint on this forum. Because for me, hearing demands for respect for feedback and understanding from someone who is initially ready to downplay the importance of others' opinions simply because they don't share the same position from the start is simply bizarre.
I can’t quote out personal messages, so go to reread this again in DM, mr “quote me”.
And you decide to send me a screenshot in which I remark to you that the anti-tunnel changes aren't driven by balancing concerns.
THAT is your proof for me saying 'I don't care about balance'?
Why I should listen person who bring emotional regards of anti tunnel PTB
Because like it or not, the reason people want anti-tunnel in the game is because of sentiment.
under the post about balancing considerations
Your post scrapped the entire concept. That's not 'balancing considerations', that's rejecting the entirety of the PTB. And with your suggestion increasing the likelihood of tunnelling, it's also rejecting the reason people want anti-tunnel. You're just off in your own world and refuse to let anyone tell you that your idea wouldn't work.
Then cheaply trying to argue with this balancing, and when I asked you about proofs of your “this incentives is good enough” “nothing was actually problematic”,
Wow, neither of those were things I ever actually said, again. It's almost like you're strawmanning. Like you're fighting out some, I don't know, grudge, maybe?
Listen. If people despise concept from the start, it doesn’t mean they didn’t try PTB and can’t provide feedback.
The problem is that you disqualify your own feedback. You have already declared that your feedback will -always- be negative because you are fundamentally opposed to the idea of 'anti-anything'.
That is the problem. Your feedback will always come from a position of wanting this patch to fail. Same with CoffeeCrashing. That taints your feedback and in many cases makes it unworkable.
You want to talk about balance, let me illustrate the point this way: Even if the changes were balanced in such a way that we saw an across-the-board bump in kill rates, you would still be opposed to them on the basis that it rejects tunnelling. You will always oversell the drawbacks and undersell the advantages because you want that PTB to fail.
For example, you claimed the incentives weren't impactful, which is pretty unreasonable to try and argue when one of the top 10 most picked killer perks was basekitted in its entirety, on top of two more benefits. That is impactful. You are not going to convince anyone that, in the current state of the game, it doesn't make a difference to have Pop Goes The Weasel equipped rather than an empty slot. Everyone swears by that perk, and they have good reason to. You can't then claim that getting that entire perk for free and opening up an extra perk slot isn't 'impactful'.
Your desire to see this patch fail has you calling Pop Goes the Weasel, a perk many killers say they feel forced to run, 'not impactful'.
That is the way your resentment towards the very concept of anti-tunnel is tainting your feedback.
So how exactly is anyone supposed to take that kind of feedback seriously?
And that was the majority of the feedback, because the idea of a repair speed boost for low hook count kill was also derided as being 'too strong' before the percentage was even shown.
People that fielded these kinds of arguments want the patch to fail, so why would their feedback not work towards that goal?
Do you really expect people being able to dispute with you in normal way when the initial ground of discussion is that low?
Do you not realise that you have that exact problem? You reject the premise of anti-tunnel and then expect everyone to agree with that in any ensuing discussion.
When talking about how to reduce tunnelling, the feedback of someone who does not want tunnelling to be reduced in any way, shape, or form, is not going to be meaningful. I'm sorry, but that's just the way it is. You can argue about whether tunnelling should be reduced, but you can do that in a separate thread. Not in any discussion (or PTB, for that matter) that is focused on making anti-tunnel work.
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4015797#Comment_4015797
Nuh, as much as u unable to keep your grudge aside of players who believe tunneling isn’t uncounterable thing
I made a post once why it didn’t work. And I still remember what you told me - feedback and balance discussion doesn’t matter for you. The only matters is emotional sentiment. So no, don’t pretend you are caring about working feedback. You always cared only about people who was sharing your statements.
You literally went to my post about balancing PTB only to cry about that balance actually doesn’t matter and you want to talk about emotional need of this changes, so my post have to be neglected because it doesn’t considering personal emotional value (maybe because I CAN’T discuss such stuff?????). Despite me trying to explain why some changes was bad there and why. So stop playing this silly games pls. I wouldn’t try to argue with you anymore just because you are so into your obsession about tunneling that even some tryhard sweaty killer would be jealous about how much you are thinking about this
You are keep fighting over nothing. Accept that I don’t share your desires and cope with it, rather than trying to shut down any feedback. I at least played this PTB and made a post when it was almost ended, rather than crying even without trying
It always be your problem I don’t like this concept. Not my or devs
For someone who opened that thread with 'English isn't my first language', you sure have a lot of confidence asserting that your misinterpretation of my words is the correct one.
And I still remember what you told me - feedback and balance discussion doesn’t matter for you.
Quote me.
Because what I -actually- said is that my concern with tunnelling is not its balancing outcome, but its impact on gameplay. YOU chose to misinterpret that as me not caring about balance at all. I have explained this to you multiple times, but you keep insisting that your misreading of what I wrote is more correct than what I am outright telling you those words mean.
You just see my name, see red, and refuse to read anything I write. You just make up the worst possible sentiment and attribute it to me, regardless of whether or not it's accurate, and it really needs to stop.
You literally went to my post about
balancingPTBYour problem here is that you think gameplay design and balance are two completely separated components and worse still, you seem to think that they're mutually exclusive.
The problem with your suggestion (Which, by the way, wasn't 'balancing the PTB', it was completely supplanting it with an entirely different idea, not balancing the present one) was that it wouldn't fix the problem BHVR intended to address. IIRC, by your own admission, your 'anti-tunnel' idea would create MORE tunnelling by increasing pressure on killers. It'd just give survivors better tools to deal with it.
That's why I stated that the balance outcome of tunnelling isn't my concern. The major reason people don't like tunnelling isn't because it's overpowered, it's because it makes the game dull as all heck.
People don't like tunnelling on a conceptual level. Not because it's OP, but because it breaks the game down and strips all dynamism from survivor gameplay.
This was the problem with your suggestion: It runs completely counter to the intention of the anti-tunnel patch, and it wouldn't fix a thing.
You chose to reject all this feedback on your suggestion and instead made up a strawman about how I don't care about balance, and you have refused to read a single word I've written, since. But you're damn confident about what it is that I wrote, despite reading and understanding none of it.
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4015778#Comment_4015778
What good is your 'feedback' going to be if this is your starting position?
It would never would be good for you and I know this.
As much as you claiming opinion of people who doesn’t like this concept should be ignored because other group asking for controversy, as much I see I have the right stop taking your opinion seriously at all. YK, it’s pure subjective thing, and I’m pretty sure you know why I stopped to take your opinion that seriously long time ago, sorry if this something you don’t want to hear or it’s too rude
It would never would be good for you and I know this.
Put your grudge against me aside.
Your feedback doesn't work for this patch because you don't want this patch to work. That is the problem.
Someone who does not want the patch to work isn't going to give feedback that will make it work.
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4015747#Comment_4015747
I don't think most of us are tryng to say our opinions are majority. I have no idea what the majority is. I've seen a lot of different views all over the internet
Reading this thread doesn't give an impression people arguing for their own opinion, rather than pushing some majority demand here, IMO. Just looking at post above and read “general opinion”, “just imagine if all players”, “those people weren't agree to anything”. People literally speaking for others. I also can do it sometimes, but at least like… not trying to build an entire opinion around this?
My problem is that all you need is a few popular streamers to whip their unthinking zombies into a frenzy and cause an outrage big enough to skew thing in what might not be a truly representational direction
And well here I already see that “We don't pretend we are majority”. Here we are. Shaming people for listening some content creators or using their videos as argument just because their opinion correlates with their own, and some videos just works better as representation of their opinion. And… why? If I showed some Otz/Hens/Tru3 video to provide argument to specific point, dows it mean I support them in everything? Hell nuh, because at least these peopleI mentioned here actually have different positions in general. And absolute same with others people…
I don't share position that you blindly should listen some specific content creator. Yet I don't share position that everyone who trying to use voice of person who built an entire career around this game are brainwashed zombies. It's just contradict your words - where you say that people here are not trying to pull out some general mass as a single opinion, but at the same time yourself trying to belittle these people's opinionscalling them crying killers/survivors or brainwashed zombies. That is straightforward being rude and emotional, it's better not to try to deny it. We all are emotional, the difference are you trying to deny how much it influences on your opinion and do it makes it generally valid.
If you're not playing the ptb, you might be watching it, and you're almost certainly getting someone's commentary on top of the video. And those people have a monetary stake in the game and might just be biased in the direction of their paychecks, not in the best interest of the game and its playerbase.
The exact same thing is happening to half the people here who shamed others. You know, it only took me a couple of private messaging with some people here to see that the people who blindly support the PTB concept weren't just listening to some other people's feedback; they hadn't even tested it themselves (just like they aren't really active players). They're still trying to argue with people who actually played it, or even fight facts they can't refute, relying on hypothetical speech, yet shutting others positions because omg, they took into account opinion of people who actually played it. So who is right here? Barely someone. For me looking at Hens playtest in custom + playing PTB myself purely as survivor, trying to find the match with killer who shares my skill was enough to build my own position. I would be even more honest - I despise concepts of “anti” from the start, because believe if something common happening in this game over and over because people want to do this and counterplay actually exist from other side, you have to finally accept and build a gameplay around it, rather than building artificial walls that limits the game to even more linear gameplay. People can boo me for this, and I don't care, because still haven’t heard actual argument why my opinion is irrelevant beside some “but majority thinking/playing other way”
So again, not directly for you, but for everyone who is reading this — before you talk about some brainwashed people, or biased, or toxic, or tribalistic one, look at yourself. Many people on this forum genuinely lack self-awareness, but of course, whoever I am here to talk about this is, indeed. I am a pretty random person from this forum.
Like… At least don't try to claim that position objectively apply to the majority or, conversely, that something niche, and therefore innovative, and demands absolute acceptance. I don't deny that I have personal sentiments, but I try to back them up with my own play, real matches, and the objective opinions of people who have, you know, invested a lot of their time in this game so they have decent takes because they simply know game better. Because my own opinion is lack of validity sometimes. Yet I don’t put specific opinion here as a religion. And I sincerely don't understand why it's so difficult for other people to do exactly the same. Because I’m pretty damn average person here and pretty sure not the only one who thinking in such way.
I despise concepts of “anti” from the start
What good is your 'feedback' going to be if this is your starting position?
Because this is part of the problem with a 'feedback' driven axing of this particular PTB. Lots of this feedback wasn't based on the PTB at all. The vast, vast majority of this 'feedback' came well before the PTB.
I get that some folks don't want this change. But others do, and it's ridiculous that the feedback is taken specifically from the people that don't want any change like it. Were the rat-players consulted about the Distortion nerf? Were the bodyblockers consulted about the OTR nerf?
Time and again, when survivors express discontent about a change, they're told to suck it up and adapt. But when the ball is in the killers' court, we've got people who are against everything from the get-go. As stated before, the only difference is in the noise you make, not the validity of the complaints.
Cry louder, lower your standards, and just browbeat the devs into compliance. And so the game's design and balance is not in the hands of those who know the game and know what they're doing, but in the hands of drama queens who know how to make a fuss.
It's no coincidence that the person in this thread whose stance essentially comes down to 'I refuse to adapt to any change that may negatively impact me' is also the person whose complaints have been taken, verbatim, and implemented into the game.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4015618#Comment_4015618
Ok, let’s discuss what actually is happening here. There was a massive massive amount of negative feedback about the PTB, and BHVR reacted to that feedback.
And now we have a group of people that want all of that feedback to be ignored, and want PTB feedback to be declared as invalid for major balance decisions.
The actual compromise is for major changes to be tested in PTBs that are completely separate from patch releases. And BHVR would very clearly tell us these PTBs are only for feedback gathering, and there is zero guarantee that anything on these PTBs will ever reach live.
Having major changes on PTBs, that are connected to patch releases, is an issue for both sides of the game. Because one side will be in a panic to try to get the changes cancelled before they reach live, and that other side will be entitled and feel like the changes should happen just because they existed on a PTB.
There was a massive massive amount of negative feedback about the PTB
And if you were to put that feedback into a pie chart, the vast, VAST majority of it was feedback without the PTB actually being in the picture. We already had people fuming at the very concept of anti-tunnel, then we had people fuming when they gave the vague outline of anti-tunnel, then we had people fuming when the numbers were released, and finally we had people fuming when the PTB actually went live.
The problem is that this concept is something that needs to happen. The survivor community is running on fumes, and the killers aren't liking it either. This problem has been brewing for 9 years, however, there's certain people that have made tunnelling into their religion.
Those people were never going to agree to anything. There is not a single system in the world that would alleviate the problem that would also appease these people.
It therefor makes zero sense to be so focused on their 'feedback'. You already said it yourself, even one hair out of place, anything you perceive as a slight against killers, and you are quitting on the spot. You are not interested in anything such a patch has to offer. Even if it were balanced in the killers' favour, you are not interested.
That kind of 'feedback' is completely unworkable. Imagine if survivors went around demanding a 70% escape rate and none of them would be willing to put in any effort or concede anything to make that happen, just threatening to quit whenever the needle could possibly maybe move.
It's volume over substance.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4015525#Comment_4015525
Oh interesting, so the data is useless. It actually is just crying and screaming from a select few that make things happen.
This probably means that all the whining about how 'gen regression and haste aren't gonna do anything' before the numbers were even out were also allowed to contribute.
This teaches us to be more extreme in our reactions, and that it's better to just not adapt.
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@Garboface said:
As strong as she is, she still is unable to perform in a fashion that makes her a competitor. In the words of tru3ta1ent, she "cannot be four places at once ". Nor can any killer for that matter. If you're losing as survivor consistently, analyze that nugget of truth in regards to any killer.
Then ask yourself why some folks prefer bots.
In the words of tru3ta1ent, she "cannot be four places at once ".
'Survivors could still win. F-tier.'
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@Neotrax said:
At this date, the game is survivor sided.
Playing as killer against people that know how to play, even if you have 3000 hours and you don't play blight or nurse, is IMPOSSIBLE.
Loops are way too large, and a good survivor will never fall for a mindgame.
At the afternoon i had fun matches, as killer and as survivor.
At the evening and night, you only be matched with people that have no life, play for years and that play together. I lost all my matches as killer, more than 10 in a row, but during the afternoon I was winning every matches.
Listen to the truth : Survivors have too much pallets, too much good connected loop.
As they know exactly what is where at, playing together so they communicate all infos and that they are very strong, it's impossible to win. Your game is like this : hit; pallet, plallet, window, killer shack, you drop the chase, you go to put pressure on another survivor, pallet, pallet, window, pallet, strong loop, T n L, your drop, you go on another one (1 or 2 gens left) and that's the same. Seriously I'm not enjoying my games as killer. That's so unfair that it's survivors who chase the killer…
As survivor I escape easily, and maybe if I'm against a blight we will loose. And I play alone. Imagine with a group, that does gens every second and no one let you have a down ?? How can you slow down the game ? How can you make your perks work if you can't activate them ?
Seriously let me 1 year, I build a team, I train them, and with same parameters that there are now, I will be able to do at least a 3 men escape against every killer but blight and maybe nurse.
Fix your game asap, it's unplayable as killer and way too ez as survivor, put less pallets, delete good combinations of loops. Survivors are not made to be invicible but to be killable. Upgrade maybe anti tunnel perks and that's it. Let us kill people again and please, NERF THOSE ######### SWF AND LET US KNOW THAT WE PLAY AGAINST PEOPLE THAT CAN TALK SO I CAN LEAVE BEFORE THE MATCH START BECAUSE I WANT TO HAVE SOME FUN.
Rank 1 killer, Rank 1 survivor, 3000+ hours in game
3 posts, necro's a thread that's been dead for almost a year. Seems legit.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4015499#Comment_4015499
i understand that some people have frustrations that build up over time. but where do we draw the line? "im frustrated that im being tunneled" so i will DC. the answer appears to be fix tunneling so they dont feel the need to DC. ok, if survivors get frustrated over the fact the go down by the time 1 gen is done, they want to last until 2 gens are done. so if they go down before 2 gens are done then just DC. answer to that would be give in to the complaint and make survivors last long enough in chases for 2 gens to be finished. This is my point, where do we draw the line and say no? What counts as petty reasons and whats built up frustrations? the frustrations that build up is based on the expectations they have and they get frustrated when expectations are not met. so like i said, if i expect to last long enough in a chase so 2 gens can be done but i cant do that so i DC out of frustration, is the answer to change it so i can last longer in a chase? or is the answer to stop me from DCing by harsher penalties?
This is my point, where do we draw the line and say no?
Firstly: The answer is an iterative process. We don't disregard all complaints from one side just because some of them make unreasonable complaints. If that were the case, all killer complaints would be invalidated by the 'nerf this, survivors almost avoided a 4K' complaints. Each complaint should be taken on its own merit.
Secondly: We know for damn sure that we don't draw the line all the way on either extreme end. We don't acquiesce every demand and we don't reject everything either. That's pointlessly black-and-white thinking.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4015402#Comment_4015402
i honestly think you should take the rose tinted glasses off lol. They might have acted differently if they didnt have a run of bad matches but if you think removing tunneling will make people suddenly think "iv had a good run of matches, now i have this map i really dont like….i get DC or i can play it….ok i will play it even though i dont really want to." it wont happen. remove tunneling and people will have something else to complain about like op killers that are not really op or map designs that might be slightly less than perfect.
Its amazing how some people refuse to see how humans generally behave. people as a whole will find an excuse to DC, killers or survivors. saying its because they had a bad few matches before hand is just an excuse, one that people will always find to justify DCing when they dont get what they want. if i could DC as killer and not worry so much about a penalty i most certainly would if i got a super SWF squad even once regardless of how my matches were before hand. or if i got a big open spaced map while i was a stealth killer, if i could get away with DCing i would bypass that match in a heartbeat….makes no sense to endure a bad time if i dont have to. This is why survivors DC. yes it has increased since krasue and ghoul have come about but tunneling has always been a thing.
The theory of people having bad matches which makes them prone to DCing doesnt make sense when people DC at the sight of a very low tier killer that rarely gives people any issues like trapper or wraith or get a map they dont like. DCing against ghoul or krasue or blights due to repeatedly having bad matches, yes i understand that reasoning… but people start to lose all credibility for their reasons when they DC over something they havnt previously had issues with.
The theory of people having bad matches which makes them prone to DCing doesnt make sense when people DC at the sight of a very low tier killer that rarely gives people any issues like trapper or wraith or get a map they dont like.
If anything, this points to this theory being correct. If they have no reason within that match to DC, then the reason for the DC is outside of it. They've already been pushed to their breaking point, decide to queue up out of habit anyway, get into a match and then realise that they don't have the energy to play anymore.
Have you never launched a game (Not a match, a game) and then once the game's done starting up, realised that you don't have the energy for it? Because I have.
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@Infernopxy said:
The system is another stick amongst the wall BHVR has built, perhaps if there was a carrot of buffs for hooking survivors (for example, a permament 3% haste bonus for hooking all survivors without killing any of them or having old deerstalker basekit but only for downed survivors with the lowest amount of hooks amongst the survivors who have been downed then tunneling and slugging would be reduced.
There was a carrot. Three of them, in fact. Haste, free Pop, and free aura reading on the least hooked survivors.
Also, how would a tool designed to help slugging reduce slugging?
@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4015333#Comment_4015333
without knowing the history if these players matches its impossible to know for certain what built up to the ragequit. But based on the attitude of the players that openly admit to DCing and the reasons they DC i dont think its built up. They brazenly say "i dont like this map so not going to bother". Built up frustration doesnt excuse why people DC at the mere sight of a trapper unless trapper is somehow causing major issues for survivors which that would be a first. even with SWF duos, if their buddy gets taken out of the match first, the other often just goes next so they can join up together in another match.
People are opportunists, give them an opportunity to bypass something they dont like no matter how small, they will take it. Which is why so many survivors DC. If killer had the same opportunity to quickly reset the DC penalty and go next, they would take it and DC if they get a map they dont like or they find survivors have perks they dont like.
People here wont admit to the real reasons why they DC and go next because its borderline promoting unsportsmanlike behaviour which is against the forum rules and could result in them being banned, but in the game and on stream they are much more honest and direct regarding why they do things.
Not long ago before they hid map offerings, there was a couple of SWF teams i regularly went against. these teams would DC in loading screen when they saw an offering they didnt like. they could have brought sac wards but their attitude was "why waste an offering slot when we can DC when we see something we dont like". They had the opportunity and they took it. I recently went against one of these teams since then and it was on a map they didnt like….what happened? 2/3 SWF DC instantly. the 3rd SWF player and solo player went next. Now the offerings have been nerfed and hidden the opportunity to DC penalty free has been reduced but not enough to stop them from DCing over something like a map they dont like.
They brazenly say "i dont like this map so not going to bother"
But again, they might've acted differently if they had better match quality surrounding that match.
To assume that that is the entirety of it is naive.
Not long ago before they hid map offerings, there was a couple of SWF teams i regularly went against. these teams would DC in loading screen when they saw an offering they didnt like. they could have brought sac wards but their attitude was "why waste an offering slot when we can DC when we see something we dont like". They had the opportunity and they took it. I recently went against one of these teams since then and it was on a map they didnt like….what happened? 2/3 SWF DC instantly. the 3rd SWF player and solo player went next. Now the offerings have been nerfed and hidden the opportunity to DC penalty free has been reduced but not enough to stop them from DCing over something like a map they dont like.
But you're referring to how many players out of the disconnecters?
@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4015239#Comment_4015239
The representative sample was fine. Again, people don't need to actually play on the PTB to make an opinion, and many of the console players mind up their minds when they watched their favorite streamer, or read about the changes on their favorite social media choice. People like to take about “proof” or “testing things out themselves”, but the reality is most people don’t care about that. Most people are going off of vibes and feelings, and they decided how they felt about the PTB regardless if they played it themselves.
Also, your scenario doesn't even work. Even if there was a lot of console players that wanted to "wait and see", the Steam players that already decided to boycott killer, still would have boycotted killer on launch day, which still would have caused a financial disaster. And the Steam players did have the weekend to test the changes because the PTB was still up, so if they really wanted to, they could have tried the changes and then posted their feelings online, on whether or not they agreed with the revert decision.
And if the PTB changes went live, I literally would have boycotted playing killer. I wouldn’t have cared how the console players felt about the changes, and I would have refused to “try to adapt” to it. And many other people would have done the same. “Try to adapt” only works if people are willing to still play as killer.
You're also ignoring the fact that BHVR has access to way more stats then we do, and actually knows the average kill rate for this PTB, and the average kill rates for the other PTBs. I’m still claiming the kill rates were extremely low on this PTB, enough to be a problem. And no, I don’t need to prove this. If you honestly think the kill rates were around the same, then you obviously weren’t watching various streamers try the PTB, to see how they handled the changes. And really, watching a lot of other people play the PTB can be more important than trying the changes yourself, because it’s showing how different people, with different playstyles, are handling the changes.
And if the PTB changes went live, I literally would have boycotted playing killer. I wouldn’t have cared how the console players felt about the changes, and I would have refused to “try to adapt” to it.
Proving the same point again: Killers can just stomp their feet and demand BHVR balances more harshly in their favour.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4015166#Comment_4015166
You can make up whatever reasons you want for why people DC but the core reason is goimg to be mass unhappiness. You don't quit something you're happy with.
And that cycles us back to tunneling and slugging, because those are the issues that appear to cause the most discontent amongst the portion of the playerbase that is vocal about the game. If you really, truly care about DCing (and I don't think you truly do) then you should want changes made to tactics like tunneling and slugging.
based on my own experience alone, the vast majority of people DC over the smallest thing. its not tunneling or being slugged, people DC long before it even gets to that point. top reasons for people DCing in my matches are:
- Map they dont like
- killer they dont like
- teammates toxic behaviour
- first time downed
since map offerings have been nerfed and people can no longer DC in loading screen when they see an offering they dont like because they are hidden now, i have noticed a lot more people DCing over maps which are balanced pretty well. These people want survivor sided maps not balanced maps.
People dont like krasue or ghoul so they are the top 2 killers people DC against, however people have been DCing at the sight of a trapper, wraith, huntress, hag, doctor, houndmaster, deathslinger just to name a few…. doesnt matter who the killer is or what tier the killer is, people will DC if they get someone they dont personally want to go against.
there as so many toxic teammates around that will body block, work with the killer, avoid gens, deliberately blow a gen your on. when these people are spotted in a match others are more likely to DC because no one wants to be in a match like that.
many people only enjoy looping and being chased. they can be chased long enough for a gen or 2 to be finshed but the second they are down the fun stops for them. either they dont want to be hooked because its no fun being on the hook or they throw a tantrum because they cant loop the killer all match. either way going down first or even just going down 1 time is enough to make people DC.
All of this happens before a killer has had time to tunnel or slug. im not saying tunneling doesnt contribute to the DCing but the mindset of make people happy so they dont DC will not work unless bhvr provides survivors with
- a map so survivor sided they wont ever want to DC when they get it or a "pick a map" option.
- give survivors a "pick a killer" option so they can hand select what killer they want
- change players behaviours in game
- make the game so survivors cant be downed.
some things can be changed to reduce DCing but at some point people need to accept the game for what it is and need to understand they cant have it exactly the way they want it.
See, I don't think this is getting the whole picture.
I don't think anyone logs on, plays a match, and immediately ragequits when they get a map they don't like, or a killer they don't like. I wager it's usually after a couple of matches that already soured the mood that the ragequitting sets in. Someone who's had a match with tunnelling, followed by a Krasue stomp at 4 gens, followed by a slugger, then another tunneller, who then loads into a map or killer they don't like, or they're the first one down, is far more likely to ragequit than someone who's had a clean slate.
People don't come into those matches without any kind of baggage. Fixing problems in matches without ragequits can alleviate ragequitting in other matches.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4015032#Comment_4015032
Are people forcing you to play game you don't want to play? Is someone physically restraining you to your computer or console, and they physically glued your mouse or controller to your hands?
No one is forcing anyone to play games they don't want to play.
Would you rather they all never queue up again and see what happens to queue times?
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4014960#Comment_4014960
It's still representative of how launch day would have gone, if the changes had gone live.
The phase 2 revert was announced the first week, because there was a very real threat that the chapter launch would have been a financial disaster if the changes have gone live. There was zero chance that "wait and see" would have stopped a killer boycott, especially because the majority of people wanting the phase 2 changes to happen, play survivor more than killer.
You can't force killers to play the game, and if killers get nerfed too much, then many of them will stop playing. Even though you don't like the way the game is currently, the queue times are still mostly stable. And the only reason why the queues aren't fully stable is because there is a slight killer boycott happening because of the pallet density changes.
It's still representative of how launch day would have gone, if the changes had gone live.
The phase 2 revert was announced the first week, because there was a very real threat that the chapter launch would have been a financial disaster if the changes have gone live. There was zero chance that "wait and see" would have stopped a killer boycott, especially because the majority of people wanting the phase 2 changes to happen, play survivor more than killer.
No, it's not. PTB was the first sentiment, the knee-jerk. Things would likely cool down after a week and you'd get more people adapting to the changes, which would make first launch completely different. But that's only if you're willing to use the PTB for its actual purpose.
Keep in mind, if they'd cancelled these changes on the tail end of the PTB, you'd have a case, but they didn't. They cancelled it after two days.
Also keep in mind that you're proving @AmpersandUnderscore 's earlier claim: Killers can just throw a hissy fit to take direct control of the game's balancing. Don't like something? Just threaten to quit and the devs will chicken out, leaving us stranded in the same situation that killers have allegedly been on the edge of quitting over.
You can't force killers to play the game, and if killers get nerfed too much, then many of them will stop playing.
Evidently, this is a one-way street, since the go-next epidemic is perfectly fine and dandy and it's good to force survivors to play matches they don't want to play.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4014913#Comment_4014913
Survivors refused to adapt to the AFK crows, and instead insisted they should be able to play exactly like they’ve always played, which caused the AFK crows to be nerfed into uselessness.
And I don’t remember seeing you complaining that the survivors should have “adapted” to the AFK crows, and I don’t remember seeing you complaining that the AFK crows wait longer before determining if any nerfs should happen.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4014916#Comment_4014916
They had time to gather data. It’s called a representative sample. You should have learned that concept in school.
BHVR had enough data to know the new chapter would have been a complete disaster if the phase 2 changes went live. Many killers would have boycotted, and the chapter sales would have tanked into the ground.
The phase 2 changes were toxic to the game, because many people would have just stopped playing killer for reals. And we know this is an actual possible scenario, because it literally happened when MMR went live, back when matchmaking was very overtuned. A lot of players just stopped playing killer, and the survivor queue times were absolutely awful.
They had time to gather data. It’s called a representative sample.
2 days' worth of a self-selected audience is not, in any way, representative. It's incredibly biased.
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@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4014535#Comment_4014535
It's sort of funny how powerful 6.1.0 is in an argument just because the Killer complaints haven't changed. 😵
I disagree, they -have- changed!
They've gotten worse.
Legitimately, killers were more optimistic about balance before 6.1 than they are now.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4014535#Comment_4014535
The last time survivor complaints hit critical mass, was when the healing times got massively increased. And if you remember correctly, BHVR ended up reverting the healing times for altruistic healing.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4014534#Comment_4014534
You can just observe the 6000+ hour streamers, that usually just stomp over the vast majority of their PTB games, that were having severely reduced kill rates.
But really, it's common sense the kill rates would be majorly affected. For reals, do you think killers camp, tunnel, and slug because they are hateful and spiteful towards survivors, or do you think they do these things because they are at severe game disadvantages if they avoid doing these things?
Like seriously, of course the kill rates are going to go way down. The incentives were absolutely terrible. Do you really think nerfed BBQ, that was easily dodged, and often showed 0 survivors, was really going to help killers spread hooks?
Am I stuck in an alternate universe? Does anyone really REALLY think that the phase 2 changes wouldn't have severely lowered the kill rates, if it went live as it was?
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4014529#Comment_4014529
Why difference does it really make that it was a few days? You still would have whined and complained if they waited 3 weeks. And if the changes went live, and were reverted shortly afterwards, you would have extra triple whined and complained about that.
Why are you pretending that you would have been fine and accepting of the patch revert, if BHVR took longer before the announcement?
The last time survivor complaints hit critical mass, was when the healing times got massively increased. And if you remember correctly, BHVR ended up reverting the healing times for altruistic healing.
Given that you didn't dispute 6.1, you agree then that you were wrong?
Also, the heal nerf only got adjusted, not reverted, so you're wrong on that count, too.