Firellius
Firellius
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4014507#Comment_4014507
No. That's not acceptable, because if a patch happened that massively raised kill rates, you know survivors would be complaining non-stop until the changes were reverted.
The actual solution is to figure out a balanced system, which includes the adjustments, and test it on the PTB to see if the kill rates are similar to the average PTB. And if the kill rates are too low, then you delay phase 2 even further until another set of adjustments can be made.
BHVR doesn't ever need for phase 2 to go live before its' ready. It only takes a couple of days on the PTB to figure out if the changes are completely out of control or not. The kill rates on the last PTB were massively lower than average, and it's not because killers "didn't adapt", it's because the PTB was completely out of control.
No. That's not acceptable, because if a patch happened that massively raised kill rates, you know survivors would be complaining non-stop until the changes were reverted.
Demonstrably false, 6.1 happened.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4014110#Comment_4014110
Because we’ve had multiple people on these forums, admitting to frequently ragequitting, or admitting they have a friend that frequently ragequits.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4014108#Comment_4014108
Making a thread doesn’t work, because it will get derailed by people telling us the problems aren’t real.
And we’re even being told in this thread that ragequitting isn’t a real problem. And if people create threads to complain about ragequitters, they get derailed too.Notice the theme here? Anything survivors do is “not a problem”
Making a thread doesn’t work, because it will get derailed by people telling us the problems aren’t real.
How do you know it will get derailed if you never make a thread?
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4014095#Comment_4014095
Judging by community feedback, bully squads aren’t a problem because it’s fun for survivors. It’s like how killers can’t complain about generator speeds, without people telling them that gen rushing is a hyper specific thing, and they weren’t “really” being gen rushed.
And remember that a lot of ragequitting threads get closed for breaking forum rules, and a lot of comments about ragequitting get closed for breaking forum rules.
And are you seriously saying you don’t see people over exaggerating the Go Next false positives? You don’t see people saying things like “I can’t believe people keep getting punished for getting tunneled out of the game”????
Go Next should be allowed to be more harsh, without people constantly complaining that it “already has too many false positives”.
Judging by community feedback, bully squads aren’t a problem because it’s fun for survivors.
No, it's not a problem because killers don't care.
Aside from you bringing it up exclusively to derail threads about tunnelling, how often do you see complaints about bully squads?
It’s like how killers can’t complain about generator speeds, without people telling them that gen rushing is a hyper specific thing, and they weren’t “really” being gen rushed.
Because every single time, it comes down to 'gens got done and I lost, fix it', with nothing further to add. It's people taking an issue with the survivors having the ability to win the game at all, and that's not something that can be 'fixed'.
And remember that a lot of ragequitting threads get closed for breaking forum rules, and a lot of comments about ragequitting get closed for breaking forum rules.
I can't remember what hasn't happened.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4014069#Comment_4014069
Meanwhile, any conversation about ragequitting problems has to devolve into people massively over exaggerating how often Go Next makes false positives.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4014061#Comment_4014061
You don’t need to over-exaggerate this. Yes, the normal queue time would go up, but not by so much that the majority of players would care. I’m sure most players would be happy with maybe a few extra seconds added to their queue times, if it meant a severe reduction with ragequitters in their games.
Again, the majority of players are actually playing through their games, even if they are frustrating. It’s really just a small percentage of survivors that are ruining lots of games for other people.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4014011#Comment_4014011
But why is it that most people can manage to play through all their games? Do you really think most players don’t have games that feel frustrating? Do you really think most players don’t have games where they feel like something unfair is happening?
And why isn’t bully squads on the official roadmap? Bully squad survivors, whose main goal is to ruin the fun of their opponents, isn’t a game problem? But killers, they are using game strategies to try to win a game, are a game problem?
Meanwhile, any conversation about ragequitting problems has to devolve into people massively over exaggerating how often Go Next makes false positives.
Where are the threads about ragequitting? Because it kinda feels like 'yes, I derailed the conversation, but now it'd be derailing to go back to the original topic'.
And why isn’t bully squads on the official roadmap?
Because, judging by community feedback, it's not a problem at all.
No one talks about this. It's only ever brought up in answer to survivor complaints. If you want it addressed, bring it up. Open threads about it. Don't keep sitting on it until you can use it as a 'gotcha'.
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@MarbleThrone said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4014074#Comment_4014074
Mindbreaker is currently bugged, and won't pause your Exhaustion recovery timer like it's supposed to.
Meaning, you can recover after using Sprint Burst while on a generator, and only be hit with the default 5-second Exhaustion timer when letting go. With Vigil, this is of course a lot less.Mindbreaker is currently bugged
Ah, I see. Well, that answers the title question I suppose.
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Mindbreaker nor Sprintburst received adjustments, did they? What are you referring to?
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@UnicornMedal said:
The fact that so many believe they were purposely introduced to nerf the Survivor bloodweb really says everything, I think. Regardless of the intention, we're seeing that it's a relatively common belief that BHVR sabotages the game and lies about it. Personally, I would think that as a developer, I would want to change that reputation as quickly as possible. And yet it feels like they're only doubling down.
Not helped by the way the only changes that stuck around of the anti-tunnel/slug update are nerfs to perks that counter tunnelling and slugging.
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But what if I need the item more in a later match?
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@HexHerbz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4012472#Comment_4012472
Same Is said for survivor. I don't see the community crying out for the devs to punish survivors for doing there objective and the devs trying to as well. Do you?
I don't see the community crying out for the devs to punish survivors for doing there objective
There's like three threads about 'genrushing' in any given week and every single thread about tunnelling gets derailed into 'what about genrushing then?'.
The difference is that survivors don't complain about losing, they complain about not getting to play on their way to that loss. If survivors gave a damn about losing, the 40/60 mark would get a LOT more pushback.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4012645#Comment_4012645
The simplest way of explaining my position is I like elegance and subtlety in game design. I like rules to be simple and make intuitive sense... there is a lot of complexity in DBD, but the basic rules of the game are quite simple.Sure, let me expand on that bit to make sure we're on the same page.
To me a really good game frequently gives the player a few choices with easy to understand risk/rewards, but also have lots of subtle complexity that make the "correct" decision never obvious. DbD generally does this really well. Do I pre-run and create distance, but risk losing gen progress if the killer doesn't show up, or stay on the gen to maximize progress while risking a shorter chase? Do I pursue the injured survivor away from the gens to get a down and risk losing gens, or do I let them go and potentially heal while I protect the area? Scenarios like these are common and one of the things that makes DbD great is that when people come to ask for advice and lay out a hypothetical, the answer is usually 'it depends'.
Which brings me to tunneling and 1 of the 2 reasons I think something needs to be done. It's simple, but not elegant. Tunneling is the "optimal strategy" to use a phrase that's been floating around. A good game should not have an optimal strategy that is just the default presumption on how to play the majority of the time.
This whole system is none of these things, it takes a relatively simple premise and starts slapping asterisks on it, with rules that are contradictory to the original premise and makes the killer objective unclear.So let's talk about BHVR's proposed solution.
I'll start by not wanting to rehash my own version of something I've said a bunch, which is that BHVR too frequently tries to reinvent the wheel instead of taking the obvious approach. If it was me, I'd probably have just done the 'delay unhook notification' and see how that works for a few months and then make additional changes to either side as needed. But in fairness to BHVR, and I've been pretty negatively lately, if they didn't take the "swing for the fences" approach they probably never would have even tried to design a 4v1 asym horror game.
But anyway looking at the proposed idea and to what degree it adds asterisk on to things:
Since it has come out I haven't liked the use of 'rule' or 'punishment' even as BHVR has adopted some of that language. As I said above, I think games are about risk/rewards: trade offs. A killer can still tunnel, but its not the optimal strategy that should always be pursued any longer. If you get a survivor out too quickly they do gens faster, or you can risk spreading pressure to deny this benefit, but give them more time with four survivors alive.
And yes, it creates a situation where a killer could not be tunneling, but then get in a position where an elimination is the best course of action but the survivors get a boost. But I don't think the goal of this change was just anti-tunnel (if it was I'm tempted to take back my earlier complimentary statement to BHVR), but a larger reimagining of the game. I think too many people approached the PtB on the idea of 'okay, this should never trigger because its a rule' to looking at it as just another game element to consider.
Is that concept ruining the simplicity? I don't think so, though I certainly think there are easier approaches. They should probably get rid of the idea of gens blocking and tie the speed boost to number of hooks (i.e. not a threshold, killing a survivor on 3 hooks gives the survivors a larger boost than killing one on 5 hooks). If they want to stay with the idea I think that keeps it simple, more hooks, more risk, but less boost.
I don't think so, though I certainly think there are easier approaches. They should probably get rid of the idea of gens blocking and tie the speed boost to number of hooks
Oh, I like that! Severe at 3 hooks, strong at 4, modest at 5, and weak or gone at 6?
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4011611#Comment_4011611
When did weaponize (i.e. trying to use perks) become bad?
Also when did weaponize become part of BHVR's issues with the game because I don't see it in past comments (either spelling)?
Instead this seems to be a killer complaint about game feel where BHVR is now adapting killers' preferred terminology which, coming off an anti-tunnel update that was canned because of killer complaints about feel, is really strange for a QoL update where survivors had been told they were finally getting their most complained about issues looked at.
If the perk was overperforming on the numbers, fine, just tell us that.
Instead this seems to be a killer complaint about game feel where BHVR is now adapting killers' preferred terminology
I am suddenly reminded of the completely unnecessary nerf to Wake Up on account of killer complaints about hiding, too.
They do just take killer complaints verbatim.
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@HexHerbz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4012371#Comment_4012371
Have to worry if you're the next one. What the hell. I never go into a survivor game thinking is this my time to be tunnelled. If you get tunnelled 1 in 10 that isn't problematic. Tunnelling is apart of the core gameplay of dbd. Hook states exist therefore tunnelling and camping exist too. Every game has it's pros and cons. If something is that bad and miserable why keep playing? I'm very curious. Most people stop playing a game they find miserable. It's not as bad as everyone makes out that's why. You all want the game to go into a certain direction without thinking about the bigger picture. You're breaking the game with what you want the devs to do. The game was in a miles better state when it was rank 1 - 20 and without Anti this or Anti that at basekit. That was peak dbd for survivor and killer. The best fun times I ever had. That's a fact
Every game has it's pros and cons.
The con is that sometimes, as killer, you may lose a match.
So if you're going to tell others to suck it up, take your own advice.
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@Roco45 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4010894#Comment_4010894
The game is balanced around casual Killers and SWF, not casual Survs, that's a genuine fact. SoloQ is a disgusting excuse for an asymm, left neglected to rot.
Neglect is when they don't pay any attention to it. They do pay attention to it, though, as they've gone out of their way to make it worse.
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@SpringMyTrap said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4012211#Comment_4012211
>You know that that's an example of a temporary solution, right?
"They dont like temporary solutions, but can resort to them if no other option is available"
"They made a temporary solution hahaha gotcha".Cmon, dude. Yeah, it's a temporary solution because they needed to quickly put out the fire and had the rework planned they didnt know how soon they could go through.
Considering the delays with the rework, my theory checks out pretty well. That's the definition of BHVR's "make changes with something in the future in mind and leave them be for indefinite period of time because the thing they were meant for got indefinitely delayed".
>But they didn't need to do any balancing. They buffed Krasue from PTB when they could've just withheld those buffs at no resource cost. They didn't do that, and now they need to tone her down in the meantime.So either they did decide to invest additional resources to create an additional problem that would require an additional investment of resources to create a temporary fix that they don't like to use…Or Krasue just got overtuned and it's got nothing to do with the anti-tunnel changes at all.
Im not explaining that again. I already addressed it, you're just reciting the claim I have already explained.
>No. Again, you are conflating 'clunky' with 'bad'. People said she was clunky, not bad.
Again, good luck selling the clunky killer people said feels too bad to play on.
I think you're the one who cannot grasp the difference here. You dont seem to understand that most of the things that made her "overtuned" came from them ADDRESSING THE CLUNK because the things people found clunky about her are inseparable from her balance. Otherwise they only slightly net buffed her.
>Check the 9.2.0 patch notes and see if you can find any trace of the anti-tunnel changes.
https://x.com/DeadbyDaylight/status/1964079594601877907 - please read this for me, especially the part where they claim they "cancelled" the systems and not delayed them.
I think discussion with you is pointless. You're selectively ignoring evidence, keep repeating the same things over and over despite me addressing them, keep ignoring the arguments disproving your points. Ill address the rest of your points so you don't act like I cant reply to them, but Im not going to bother any further.
>Again, this is backwards arguing. You have your conclusion and rationalise everything around that.
Oh that's a new one, no it's not. My conclusion came after me observing all the stuff and comparing it to previous history of BHVR's balancing and design.
But keep going, throwing random accusations without actually trying to address what Im arguing is the way!
>Except they did more than fix the clunk, they did give her a ton of buffs.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/RY0KUJXLZ7E3/image.png
two buffs, two nerfs, 6 changes addressing various "clunk" complaints.
of course they turned out to be buffs, because clunk on mechanical powers reliant on timings is inseparable from their balance, which also reiterates us back to the "clunky vs bad" which further proves my point.
in either case, it's a matter of devs competence and motivation as they were mainly trying to address the clunk complaints and making killer easier to do well with. Though I dont rule out the intention to buff her as well, again, there are multiple coexisting factors.
>Halved wind-up, +50% turn rate, faster body form, longer flight and vaulting from flight are all 'not really buffs'.What's it take for it to be a buff? Base movespeed up to 140%?
Addressed above. People called her clunky for these exact reasons.
The buffs without relation to clunk would be messing with the amount of mushrooms (whoops), flight charges (whoops), infection tickrates and so on.
>Literally no one has said that.They've said both of those components but never linked them. The only connection between the two is that Krasue's power had a really dumb oversight in it that massively encouraged and empowered tunnelling, which is something people complained about.But no one has said 'Krasue is OP and that is why we need anti-tunnel'.
Lol, lmao even.
And why do you think her design massively encouraged and empowered tunnelling? Did devs just look at it and said "yeah this is fine, totally okay when there are no penalties for tunnelling"? Or maybe they designed / balanced her when there are NO concerns about the tunnelling potential because the preventions are external and not built-in to her kit?
You're almost there, come on.
>They do this all the damn time. Leech not being cleared upon hook is a prime example of them making a mistake they already dealt with in the past.
almost there
"They designed Krasue with anti-tunnel in mind! The proof is the fact that Krasue literally has game mechanics in it that heavily favour tunnelling!"
Like I said, you have your conclusion that you desperately need to be true and so you rationalise -everything- around it to serve that end.
It's a complete waste of time, because there's nothing I or anyone can say to disabuse you of that notion.
Even if the devs themselves came on here to tell you that no, you're wrong, and Krasue's design wasn't based on the anti-tunnel changes at all, you'd just turn around and claim they're only saying that to make the changes more palatable.
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Pistol.
I'll show you 'weaponised'.
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@CompetitifDBD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4011841#Comment_4011841
Wdym "source?" Do you only play S tier killers with the best meta perks?
The game is survivor sided, any group of decent solo queue players will wipe almost all killers effortlessly
I mean 'source' as in, what is your source for this claim?
Because this kind of crap gets shoved down everyone's throat and the underlying evidence never gets further than incredulousness over the fact that someone deigned to challenge the dogma.
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@CompetitifDBD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4011447#Comment_4011447
Seeing as majority of games survivors complete all generators, this perk really should not be so strong if its gonna get that much value.
Seeing as majority of games survivors complete all generators
Source?
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4011671#Comment_4011671
Serious question. Because, you know, multiple people wanted the perk to be reverted, so we should revert the scratchmark change too, right?
The scratchmark change happened because of the anti-tunnel PTB, and the endurance change happened independently of the anti-tunnel PTB, so the scratchmark change should be reverted.
Any other nerfs you want to stack on, like maybe a permanent 30% repair speed penalty, or having it only work on the second hook?
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4011573#Comment_4011573
Is the scratchmark removal still going to be a part of the perk?
I thought the scratchmark removal was supposed to be compensation for the endurance removal? Because if endurance is back, then the scratchmark removal can be reverted.
They can't tell you're being sarcastic, so you might want to clarify that.
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@Mandy said:
Off the Record was always on our list for changes, even without the tunneling solutions tested, we were aware on how the perk was able to be weaponised and felt that 80s Endurance was a pretty long length of time, it's part of why when adding it back, we've halved the duration so it is still strong in a situation where a player is being tunneled but it will be in a healthier position which won't allow it to be weaponised in the same way.
So why did the rest of OTR cop the same nerf? If you're worried about Endurance, keep that at 40 seconds, but leave the rest at 80. Why does the entire perk have to get gutted for that one component?
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@SpringMyTrap said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4011556#Comment_4011556
>At an undisclosed point in time. The last time they tried anti-camp and it got booed off the stage, it took them literal years before they tried anything again
good
>We're still waiting on Skull Merchant and Twins reworks. 'A future patch' could be next patch, but is more likely on a longer term schedule. The +10 seconds hook timer that was supposed to come with 6.1 to counterbalance the longer gens and not have that be a strict buff to camping took 'em two years. Are we gonna have two years straight of killers being designed for anti-tunnel before we actually get said anti-tunnel? Do you think that that is their plan?
no, I think that's their incompetence and/or inability to properly communicate. Logically, +10 seconds nerf happened so late because they didnt initially think it would've been necessary and gathered data to make a decision. They made it sound like they just forgot to add it right away. So either they're unable to communicate properly or they are actually incompetent and self reporting.
Either way it doesn't contradict what Im saying, they're either painfully slow at making decisions or have delayed reaction.
>Krasue was tested on PTB with the anti-tunnel/slug changes. We then didn't get the anti-tunnel/slug changes, but they did buff the hell out of Krasue moving from PTB to live.
No, I quite literally did. Krasue was buffed because she was NOT GOOD ENOUGH with these changes. If they are planning to go through and are already halfway done coding that, why not proceed? If people get mad, devs roll out a bunch of placebo nerfs like they did to ghoul and they'll have an easier time selling the systems to the community later.
Either incompetence or slow decisionmaking.
There's also multiple other factors like the fact they still need to sell the chapter and NERFING the killer people ALREADY perceived as "clunky/bad" wouldnt make a good case. It's not just one thing, it's multiple.
>IF what you're saying is true and the reason Krasue is this overtuned is because of the anti-tunnel changes that didn't come in, wouldn't it make infinitely more sense to, when they realised they weren't going to push the anti-tunnel, leave Krasue as is and not buff the hell out of her in response to a patch that is not happening?
IF the changes aren't actually coming in and not just delayed. Again, bigger picture, at least within a year which is slightly more than their development cycle IIRC.
Look at Singularity and his update. It was planned to ship somewhere in late 2023, but was promptly delayed and instead we've had Skull merchant 2.0 with 8 kick system / AFC. Then he got updated almost a year later and the changes he's got didnt involve any actual nerfs to 3 genning (unless you count camera CD skip exploit that got fixed w/o a patchnote) and a QoL that cut the camping punishment by 4 seconds. Something tells me if they didnt choose to go for the fundamental design change and opted to balance killers individually w/o external bottleneck, Singularity would've been nerfed badly.
>That's nonsense too, considering all the other changes they made and have made in the past. They have no problem making 'drastic sweeping changes' on the short term, and this PTB, if anything, proves that to be the case!
You just gave examples of them being unable to make quick decisions / changes.
no, I think that's their incompetence and/or inability to properly communicate. Logically, +10 seconds nerf happened so late because they didnt initially think it would've been necessary and gathered data to make a decision. They made it sound like they just forgot to add it right away. So either they're unable to communicate properly or they are actually incompetent and self reporting.
Does it make a difference? It's still taking them ages, so there's no reason to assume the next iteration of anti-tunnel/slug is right around the corner, and therefor also no reason to balance the game to it.
Krasue was buffed because she was NOT GOOD ENOUGH with these changes.
Except that's not a sentiment that came from the community, even WITH the anti-tunnel/slug system.
If they are planning to go through and are already halfway done coding that, why not proceed?
Because according to you, the balance level they're aiming for was WITH anti-tunnel/slug driving it upwards. They cancelled that, so why are they still balancing as though these changes ARE going through as opposed to just reserving the buffs for when they are actually needed?
Either incompetence or slow decisionmaking.
Or, alternatively: Your theory doesn't hold up.
they still need to sell the chapter and NERFING the killer
Not getting a buff =/= getting nerfed. You can't claim Krasue would've gotten nerfed if she hadn't received her laundry list of buffs inbetween PTB and Live.
"clunky/bad"
Those are very distinctly different terms and conflating them is bad faith arguing.
IF the changes aren't actually coming in
Well, are they in the game?
Or should the entire game always be balanced for changes coming in who-knows-what-year? Should we just delete more components from perks on the assumption that they'll be basekit 'someday'?
Surely you can agree that it is incredibly bad planning to just overbuff the killer now to account for changes that are specifically and explicitly not coming now?
You just gave examples of them being unable to make quick decisions / changes.
No, I gave examples of sweeping quick decisions and changes.
It's just rationalisation, dude. Any time anything doesn't line up with your theory of them intentionally overtuning Krasue to prepare for anti-tunnel, you just trot out a
Either incompetence or slow decisionmaking.
Alternatively, Krasue's design and overtuning had nothing to do with the anti-tunnel changes and they didn't massively overblow a killer in preparation for an axed patch, creating a whole new problem that requires a whole new solution because they aren't going to fix up the anti-tunnel/slug system that fast and they still need Krasue to be balanced down in the meantime.
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@CompetitifDBD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/458108/give-hope-hope-again
This perk was way too strong at 7%. At least when it was temporary, that massive boost was understandable, but this one perk made a huge difference in whether you make a gate or not, which shouldn't be happening
What is it supposed to do, if not exactly that?
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@SpringMyTrap said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4011298#Comment_4011298
incredible way of arguing, you might as well just quote individual words and smugly say "what did I say" and have the echochamber upvote you nonetheless.
actually, please do that, you seem petty enough to do that when pissy about not being able to argue back
What can I even say, though? Have you seen your argument?
'Krasue and Ghoul are because of anti-tunnel changes! We didn't get the anti-tunnel changes, but they opted to buff Krasue from a strong PTB position because of changes that they were cancelling in the same patch and pushing out to an unspecified date as opposed to holding back the buffs until the anti-tunnel changes are there and also Ghoul was because of the anti-tunnel changes that were almost half a year out but also not because BHVR is just bad at balance but this is totally the new balance standard and they just released Springtrap without the anti-tunnel changes in mind. Or something.'
You're working backwards from your conclusion. Things that contradict your theory become proof in your mind. There's no point in arguing with that.
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@SpringMyTrap said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4010887#Comment_4010887
no, it assumes it WILL BE BALANCED :)
DbD is balanced around casual survivors AND killers.
it aint going to tell only ONE half of the playerbase to "get good" while lowering the skill requirements for the other, it's not how things work here. either everyone has to get good or nobody does.
if they remove killer's macroplay that is vital for equal skill performance, then they're going to make up for that anyhow which you can see with killer design philosophy changing to more consistent and efficient chase powers with less defined or functional counterplay.
you can already see it with ghoul/krasue fundamental design - unavoidable free hit + freest catch up / mobility in the game + scamper for ghoul or unmindgameable / uncounterable head/body form powers with slow burn free tag, scamper and catch up.
the only way this whole thing works out is if they somehow manage to create an ACTUALLY viable compensation for tunnelling / slugging removal in which case the only consequence will be in DRASTICALLY increased amount of "win harder" killer matches and gen repair simulator.
it aint going to tell only ONE half of the playerbase to "get good" while lowering the skill requirements for the other, it's not how things work here.
@SpringMyTrap said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4011196#Comment_4011196
> Every bit of killer powercreep has been met with survivors being told to 'get good'.
Im not wasting my time on this immature game of counting "who gets it worse"
I understand that you werent here since first year and dont remember OP ######### killers could crutch on, but Im not going to take the role of educating you on it.
Killer role's only "powercreep" was in getting more alternatives, if that's how you define powercreep, you're compromising your entire point so badly, I am going to consider not wasting my time on you any further.
>Tunnelling is the absolute lowest level of macroplay that any bot could figure out. This argument always tries to present some kind of grand strategic choice but ultimately always comes down to 'just tunnel 24/7 lol'.
If you actually took time to understand what Im talking about instead of yapping and knee jerk reacting to dogwhistles, you'd understand Im not saying that tunnelling is some kind of a high skill grand strategy or whatever strawman you made up here.
Tunnelling is the easiest / most consistent strategy that exists for casual killers to rely on and get their 60% killrate in the game balanced around said casual players (not killers in particular, I hope you're clever enough to recognize that devs arent actually either side biased) with the general killer design being fair / counterplay / medium strength level killers in that skill bracket. Any anomalies tend to happen either because devs didnt expect the killer to be so good in hands of players like you, in which case they promptly nerf that killer or killer's high capabilities are not an issue in the skill bracket they're balancing for, therefore they wont be a high priority issue - every S tier killer ever.
If you take away tunnelling which, amongst all other things, is the strategy casual killers rely on (and you will have to cope with le bad and casual killers, just like they cope with le bad and casual survivors) and force these people to do 2-3 times more work for the killrates, you end up with krasue/ghoul as default killer balance and judging by the fact these two not only didnt get any marginal nerfs but also got BUFFED and only insignificantly nerfed later on.
If you're content with dealing with these killers - I can only wish you the best and make sure not to regret it, but if not, you're not different than a sheep voting for the wolf.
>Ghoul got released before anti-tunnel's design was even on the table. You think they released a killer designed around anti-tunnel, months before their first attempt at anti-tunnel?
Rofl, lmao even.
Do you know how long they cook that #########? Like, do you have at least a slight idea? Or do you think they make patches from scratch in those 3 weeks in-between? To give you simple example, they were ALREADY PROMISING these systems (just nothing concrete) BEFORE the ghoul was even revealed.
And obviously, as I explained above, Ghoul's insane power has a different, not mutually excluding, explanation - devs' gross incompetence in estimating killer's power level because unlike other sanely developed games that often consider the full potential of something, DbD's balance is based on mediocre players which are insane wildcards in terms of how good they get with the newer killer or against them. The only thing defining the intention is how devs proceeded with addressing his issues.
They easily could've said that slide cancel is an exploit or that they didnt anticipate that and will nerf cancel more to account for that, they could've cancelled scamper buff, but all they did was add an insignificant token penalty while keeping Kaneki to be A+ Legion equivalent in terms of difficulty. Use your head and connect the dots, human brains are known to have pattern recognition ability.
>Also, we didn't get anti-tunnel, but we did get Ghoul and Krasue, so the threat of getting broken overpowered killers is kind of moot by now
And in that case those two would've got skull merchant treatment that they deserve as killers who do not deserve most of the strength they have in their kits. But alas, baby survivors refuse to get good vs other killers playing optimally so they're getting anti tunnel and baby killers will get a different way to autopilot the game by playing on these new killers and ######### on solo qers.
But recognizing that apparently means to be a biased survivor main. Oh wait, biased killer main, because that's what you're effectively accusing me of here, my apologies, Im lost in these accusations from different bad players being mad at truth.
But alas, baby survivors refuse to get good vs other killers playing optimally
What can I even say at this point?
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@SpringMyTrap said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4010887#Comment_4010887
no, it assumes it WILL BE BALANCED :)
DbD is balanced around casual survivors AND killers.
it aint going to tell only ONE half of the playerbase to "get good" while lowering the skill requirements for the other, it's not how things work here. either everyone has to get good or nobody does.
if they remove killer's macroplay that is vital for equal skill performance, then they're going to make up for that anyhow which you can see with killer design philosophy changing to more consistent and efficient chase powers with less defined or functional counterplay.
you can already see it with ghoul/krasue fundamental design - unavoidable free hit + freest catch up / mobility in the game + scamper for ghoul or unmindgameable / uncounterable head/body form powers with slow burn free tag, scamper and catch up.
the only way this whole thing works out is if they somehow manage to create an ACTUALLY viable compensation for tunnelling / slugging removal in which case the only consequence will be in DRASTICALLY increased amount of "win harder" killer matches and gen repair simulator.
it aint going to tell only ONE half of the playerbase to "get good" while lowering the skill requirements for the other, it's not how things work here.
That is absolutely how things work here. Every bit of killer powercreep has been met with survivors being told to 'get good'. Complaints about tunnelling get met with 'just loop for 5 gens, 4head'.
Every single killer buff gets forgotten by the end of the week they're released and then we're back to footstomping on the forums, demanding more killer buffs. This is absolutely how things have been working for the past couple of years.
if they remove killer's macroplay that is vital for equal skill performance
Tunnelling is the absolute lowest level of macroplay that any bot could figure out. This argument always tries to present some kind of grand strategic choice but ultimately always comes down to 'just tunnel 24/7 lol'.
you can already see it with ghoul/krasue fundamental design - unavoidable free hit + freest catch up / mobility in the game + scamper for ghoul or unmindgameable / uncounterable head/body form powers with slow burn free tag, scamper and catch up.
Ghoul got released before anti-tunnel's design was even on the table. You think they released a killer designed around anti-tunnel, months before their first attempt at anti-tunnel?
This is defeatism for argument's sake, where there's a hope that they're the way they are because of the anti-tunnel, because then you can claim that anti-tunnel is the cause. Sadly, though, both of these released without anti-tunnel, one of them long before anti-tunnel, so it's more likely that BHVR just keeps powercreeping killers, and anti-tunnel has nothing to do with it.
Also, we didn't get anti-tunnel, but we did get Ghoul and Krasue, so the threat of getting broken overpowered killers is kind of moot by now. The reversal of the anti-tunnel changes did not see these two get adjusted in any way, so the choice is basically 'get all the alleged drawbacks of the anti-tunnel without the anti-tunnel' or 'get all the alleged drawbacks of the anti-tunnel with the anti-tunnel', and that's a very easy choice to make.
@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4011092#Comment_4011092
The doom posts are a real concern though, and they aren’t there to derail conversations.
The phase 2 changes were completely out of control, and would have caused massive issues if they reached live. There shouldn’t even be conversations of “what SMALL changes can we make to fix it”, because the PTB was so bad that they need lots of major changes in order to be acceptable.
The doom posts are a real concern though, and they aren’t there to derail conversations.
They are absolutely there to derail conversations. Just in the post quoted, they refer to an 'inevitable' compensation or killer design change that will make the game much less enjoyable.
Given we've had one (1) iteration of this system, this is just absolute doomposting without any constructive criticism or logical underpinning. It's got 'We've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas' energy to it.
It's declaring the problem unsolvable, not because of a genuine belief that it is, but because it's a problem they don't want solved.
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@Throw said:
Didn't they say next PTB?
They did not. They said 'a future patch', so they've not set any kind of timeframe anymore. It's entirely possible it'll be years before they make another attempt.
@SpringMyTrap said:
Hopefully never, they will be a massive decline in gameplay quality and the inevitable compensation / killer design change will make the game so much less enjoyable.
edit: to people downvoting me, do you genuinely want the game to turn into blight (krasue/ghoul moreso) by daylight? or do you just completely lack the ability to understand cause and effect and think they'll actually keep making fun and interactive mid tier (as of today's standard) killers in the dbd with these systems?
This argument always assumes the game would be horribly unbalanced without tunnelling and slugging to underpin 'weak' killers, something that hasn't been proven in the slightest but gets rammed down everyone's throat regardless.
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@adam1233467 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4010546#Comment_4010546
there is no way they aren't bringing endurance to the perk, they will get massively hate for not bringing back endurance for the perk.
There's also no way they'd 'forget' to reinstate Endurance after moving it to the basekit changes and then axing said basekit changes, but here we are, aren't we?
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@adam1233467 said:
Off the record is coming back on next bugfix, we dont need to nerf any exposed perk.
Did they confirm they're going to reinstate the endurance yet? Because last I heard, they were planning 'changes' with the next bugfix, not a reversion.
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Because screw survivors, I guess.
It's hard to figure any other reason for the basekit shift being reverted only for the killer perks while the survivor perks were left amputated. All the more so when those perks deal with the two things this patch was supposed to address.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4009588#Comment_4009588
According to that logic, it would be 100% fair if a killer perk made totems take 5 minutes to break or bless, because survivors could choose not to engage with them.
Fortunately, it's not a logic I fielded, so I don't need to defend it.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4009580#Comment_4009580
That’s not relevant. Being literally forced to do something, isn’t a requirement for something to be unfair.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4009582#Comment_4009582
Survivors are never literally forced to repair. We’re talking about extreme hyperboles, because the person I was responding to was making extreme hyperboles about killers.
That’s not relevant. Being literally forced to do something, isn’t a requirement for something to be unfair.
So what makes these perks unfair when the killer can just choose not to engage with them?
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Then these perks don't deserve any nerfs for being used 'offensively'. After all, the killer can always choose to just ignore the person with it, even when they try to bodyblock and take hits.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4009565#Comment_4009565
Survivors aren’t literally forced to repair generators. Surely they can heal teammates, unhook teammates, be chased by a killer, break totems, and a bunch of other things.
Nothing in the game actually forced a survivor to repair if the survivor doesn’t want to. The survivor always has the choice to click that M1 button
You can't be serious with this line of argumentation, surely?
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4009527#Comment_4009527
But it's not always 100% in the killer's control, which is the problem.
If a survivor uses Tenacity to IMMEDAITELY crawl under an undropped pallet, literally before the killer can pick up the survivor, then it's not in the killer's control.
And if 100% defensive perks should be basekit, then gen defense perks should be basekit too, right? Repairing generators is 100% in the survivors control, right?
I said 'if', not 'right now'.
And no, doing gens is not in survivors' control. They are not given any other option.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4009394#Comment_4009394
Defensive perks should be 100% defensive. If a survivor is slugged for 0.5 seconds, that isn’t problematic slugging, and anti-slugging perks shouldn’t be punishing that.
If they're 100% defensive they should be basekit. You shouldn't have to blow perk slots on things that are 100% in the killer's control.
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@Sava18 said:
I'm pretty sure otr has been confirmed to be getting hotfixed. On pain res though making it 12% when it's by far the most healthy slow down perk killers have would be just odd. Although I'm not sure why the some perk changes went through when the changes they were based off of didn't. I'm quite certain they literally just forgot to remove those changes or a conversation between the devs got misunderstood. Someone got lazy is my best guess.
I'm pretty sure otr has been confirmed to be getting hotfixed.
Not a hotfix on this timescale, and there's no guarantee it'll fix anything since they haven't said they'd reinstate the components they moved to the now removed basekit.
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Crackpot theory, but there's a part of me that's wondering if the entire point of the 9.2.0 PTB was to Trojan Horse in the nerfs to OTR and Tenacity.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4008451#Comment_4008451
I mean, all right? I guess? Nobody was really telling you not to, more just that what you were saying was either illogical or flat-out wrong. It's a discussion forum, you're allowed to post whatever even if it's a terrible take. God knows @Sluzzy was the original rage-baiter.
Callous though it may sound, I really don't care about you as a person. I have approximately zero interest in discussing you, as so far as I can tell, I am on a video game discussion board and that is what I intend to discuss.
I would suggest, however, that you refrain from judgements about people's character based on interactions on the forums.
Sluzzy was just more fun... :(
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@VibranToucan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4007784#Comment_4007784
Could you provide a source for that quote?
It was recently pulled up again, but it's the 60/40 killrate balancing. It was in a patchnote announcement.
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@VibranToucan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4007740#Comment_4007740
"But we have tested them now and so far, in their communication, they haven't made any mention of a reversion. This isn't some 'oopsiedoodle' by the dev team, they consciously decided to gut these perks."
There is a difference between PTB, and live. There is a reason they put Clown on this PTB instead of just adding slower yellow activation time to live.
"I don't think I said that.
Devs kinda did though."
The post has said this. And by saying that you think the devs did say they do Killer sided patches you admit that you believe that too. Based on two perks being changed.
The post has said this. And by saying that you think the devs did say they do Killer sided patches you admit that you believe that too. Based on two perks being changed.
No, based on Peanits saying 'we're balancing in favour of the killer'.
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@VibranToucan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4007654#Comment_4007654
- I am not sure what you are trying to say. Do you think Matthew Cote walked into the meeting room and said "you know these anti-tunnel and anti-slugging changes we proposed even tho we only cater to killers? Well the community didn't like the execution and wanted different kinds of changes to help with these issues, so while we work on these we should hyperbuff slugging and tunneling and lets do that by keeping the rework of two perks we reworked for the PTB, and further adjusting one two weeks later?" Like, Tenacity didn't deserve to get nerfed, Off the Record didnt deserve to get reworked, yeah so what? That doesnt show that BHVR is "giving (Survivors) crumbs every update."
- This is still one patch. Yeah this one is Killer sided. That doesn't mean there is a trend for Killer sided updates.
Do you think Matthew Cote walked into the meeting room and said "you know these anti-tunnel and anti-slugging changes we proposed even tho we only cater to killers? Well the community didn't like the execution and wanted different kinds of changes to help with these issues, so while we work on these we should hyperbuff slugging and tunneling and lets do that by keeping the rework of two perks we reworked for the PTB, and further adjusting one two weeks later?"
I know it sounds really stupid and outlandish, but this is a legitimate approximation of what happened.
They put out anti-tunnel/slugging changes, shifted the core function of two counter-perks over to the basekit of these changes, got backlash, removed the changes, and then consciously made the decision to not restore the core function of these counter-perks. And they haven't committed to reversion, either, just making some vague mention of 'changes', which notably aren't even in the first patch.
Again, this patch was supposed to help survivors deal with tunnelling and slugging, and instead wound up deleting two tools they have to deal with it.
Just as a reminder, you said this:
If they had playtested this patch without the anti-tunnel changes and had listened to those playtesters, it probably would have gotten reverted.
But we have tested them now and so far, in their communication, they haven't made any mention of a reversion. This isn't some 'oopsiedoodle' by the dev team, they consciously decided to gut these perks.
This is still one patch. Yeah this one is Killer sided. That doesn't mean there is a trend for Killer sided updates.
I don't think I said that.
Devs kinda did though.
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@Anti051 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4007654#Comment_4007654
(Gets unhooked), (OTR activates), (gets healed by rescuer in under 10 seconds).
"Wow, I've still got 70 seconds of invincibility! I'm gonna go screw with the killer for perk value!"
(Body-blocks killer in another chase), (Gets exposed by Ghostface), (purposely takes the hit but doesn't go down due to OTR god-mode).
Killer ends up getting significantly punished by the abuse of a so-called "anti-tunnel" perk.
"I've got a fantastic gameplan: I'm not going to do any gens, and I'm just going to run at the killer instead!"
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4007605#Comment_4007605
It's more likely that DMS was kept nerfed to see how the player reactions would go, and people failed to care enough, so it will probably stay nerfed.
So do you then agree that the DMS nerf was unrelated to the tunnel changes and thus irrelevant to their reversion?
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Because we went from 120% of what was needed (Or whatever the figure was) to -30%.
There was no effort to adjust and put in anything to improve the situation, and now it's all reserved for 'a future patch', while in the meantime, they gutted OTR and Tenacity.
We went from "This is too strong" to "We somehow got less than nothing" with no commitment to fixing it. Could be years before they try again, for all we know.
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@VibranToucan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4007641#Comment_4007641
Okay, lets assume your position is 100% correct. So what? Killer perks get changed and nerfed all the time too. Sometimes those nerfs destroy them or make people unhappy. I think they should be reverted, but "They reworked 2 Survivor perks" is not a good argument for them favouring kilelrs. Literally DMS got nerfed in the same patch. Pain Res got nerfed 4 times over its lifespan. Quite recently Pentimento got reworked to be way worse than it used to be.
Take the entire thing in context, though. The changes to tunnelling and slugging were a follow-up on an issue that's nine years old at this point. 9.2.0 was originally supposed to disincentivise these strategies. While the patch was poorly received and a revert could be understandable, taking a patch that was supposed to alleviate a problem and then turning it over to utterly gut two perks that help keep the problem in check is, I'm pretty sure, unprecedented.
Context is also important for the killer nerfs you are referencing. Pain Res having copped 4 nerfs over its lifespan isn't that remarkable when it's still the most-picked killer perk in the game. Pentimento, also, didn't get a straight nerf, becoming easier to use and get value out of, even if that value is diminished, and this is a few patches after it got an indirect buff due to the boost to Thrill of the Hunt.
While OTR can be argued (With difficulty) to be deserving of a nerf, there was nothing to put Tenacity on anyone's radar for a gutting, and the nerfs they have received are far more extensive than any of the ones you mentioned, with both of them having lost their core components entirely.
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4007256#Comment_4007256
I already had explanation in my response. If you don’t accept it’s just your personal choice
What, this one?
Some files might be lost from previous commits, so they need to redouble check their archives.
You mean they lost the files that were on the live servers at the time the PTB plug was pulled?
Tough sell, IMO.
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@VibranToucan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4007636#Comment_4007636
When did I say it was? They tested the new changes with the anti-tunnel changes, saw they are fine under those conditions, so they pushed them out even without the anti-tunnel changes. If they had playtested this patch without the anti-tunnel changes and had listened to those playtesters, it probably would have gotten reverted.
It is going to be incredibly difficult to argue that the nerfs to OTR and Tenacity were anything other than intended. They didn't 'forget' to revert them and it's not like they weren't aware that they would normally require reversion.
This isn't oversight, this isn't them being unaware, this is a conscious decision to demolish these two perks, as further evidenced by the fact that they aren't getting fixed in 9.2.1, and they haven't committed to a revert. We're going to see 'changes' to OTR in 9.2.2.
This is not, in any way, comparable to bugs. You could try and argue that it's a case of them not listening to the testers, but the difference here is that in the case of Streetwise, they weren't listening, and in the case of OTR, they are listening, but they just don't care.
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@VibranToucan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4007625#Comment_4007625
So? They are both a symptom of the same problem. Not testing enough and not listening to the playtesters who they did have.
No, OTR and Tenacity getting gutted was not a bug.
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@kosaba11 said:
I think, thanks to this patch, I can confidently say that BHVR has earned the title of worst developers in the industry - and yes, I'm including Ubisoft, EA and Nintendo.
Oh, Nintendo were never bad developers, I'd go with Acti-Blizz over Nintendo.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4007566#Comment_4007566
I'm claiming that sometimes BHVR just throws changes at the wall, just to see which changes stick, and which changes get so many complaints that they end up getting reverted.
But it is impossible that DMS was changed in disregard of the tunnel/slug changes?