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Firellius

Firellius

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Firellius
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  • @tes said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4003659#Comment_4003659

    Nuh, the issue is that u imply on fact that if opportunities are limited and that’s the only thing u can do, it suddenly have to stop being risky. By your logic. If u really don't understand and need in game comparasion…

    The only way for survivor to have escape when he left alone in the trial is opening the gate if hatch is closed and he doesn't have a key. Opportunities limited. The only way to win is opening the gate. But It’s risky or sometimes even impossible. If u can’t do anything else for securing the win, but this only way isn’t 100% rewarding, since when it stop being risky? Same with killers on comp area. The only way to have chances for winning is making the game 3 vs 1 as soon as possible. Yet it risky, because u could have lose still by other side getting more points next round.

    It's a public forum. You don't get a monopoly on feedback. When you argue something, I have the right to point out a different viewpoint.

    Indeed. But what I supposed to say? My discussion here is about balancing stuff around both mid and top play. But implying that u can’t balance game on top level without tunnelling. And then along come you and your fellow “just git gud” thinkers, who insist on "it should just go because it's my opinion, and I don't actually care about balancing." Well, what u expecting? Congrats? It's your opinion, but because you don't care much about the balance issues raised in the post, and because me sharing experience with stats or screenshots completely contradicts your genuine belief tunnelling is sebere exploit in balance , your opinion simply can't compete.

    You can just say "no," downvote, and move on and start your own posts with own sentiment. But starting a discussion with me claiming about balance, after which you'll sooner or later say, "I don't care too much about balancing, it just should go." This message simply devalued all your attempts to prove anything to me, turning it into pure subjectivity. Why I should even listen person who don’t actually care about balancing under the post about balancing?

    Nuh, the issue is that u imply on fact that if opportunities are limited and that’s the only thing u can do, it suddenly have to stop being risky. By your logic.

    Yes, it's not risky if you're not risking anything. That's the point!

    The only way for survivor to have escape when he left alone in the trial is opening the gate if hatch is closed and he doesn't have a key. Opportunities limited. The only way to win is opening the gate. But It’s risky or sometimes even impossible. If u can’t do anything else for securing the win, but this only way isn’t 100% rewarding, since when it stop being risky?

    But you're not risking anything. Even in the little blurb you pulled up, it mentions the possibility of something bad happening. But in the situation you describe, and the way you've construed tunnelling, it's not a possibility at all. It's a guarantee.

    You don't 'risk the possibility of losing' if losing is a guarantee.

    Say you bet on a roulette wheel. You put in 50 bucks. If you win, you get 100 bucks. If you lose, you get nothing. That's a risky thing to do, because you could be out 50 bucks.

    But if you go in with 0 bucks, and you get 50 bucks if you win but get nothing if you lose, it's not risky anymore. The only thing you're risking is a win.

    That's the stumbling block in your claim. Tunnelling is not 'risky' so long as it is the only avenue towards a win. It'd be risky if there's other ways to win that you could bet on, but you have precluded that in your assertions.

    Indeed. But what I supposed to say? My discussion here is about balancing stuff around both mid and top play. But implying that u can’t balance game on top level without tunnelling. And then along come you and your fellow “just git gud” thinkers, who insist on "it should just go because it's my opinion, and I don't actually care about balancing."

    I have made no such claim!

    You made some kind of remark about mega-buffing survivors to balance around tunnelling and then asked me, personally, if I'd be happy with that, and I gave you an honest answer. I did not come into this thread talking about balance and I have not talked about balance in this entire thread at all.

    I've only been picking apart your logic and exposing flaws in your argumentation. I've not made any kinds of claims about balance.

    your opinion simply can't compete.

    I've barely expressed an opinion, I've just been engaging with what you wrote and what you've been arguing.

    Why I should even listen person who don’t actually care about balancing under the post about balancing?

    Because like it or not, the thing you're commenting on isn't designed exclusively to cater to the raw numerical concept of balance. Part of the reason why BHVR is moving forward with anti-tunnel plans is because tunnelling is bad for gameplay. Balancing the game to force killers to tunnel all the time is the exact opposite of BHVR's goals with an anti-tunnel system, rendering your feedback pointless.

    Survivors don't want to get tunnelled all the time, and while there are certainly plenty of people that would like tunnelling to remain in the state it is currently in, I doubt even they would want to be forced to tunnel all the time.

    You will have to contend with those elements. Simply boosting survivors to be able to overcome tunnelling, subsequently increasing the likelihood of tunnelling being used in the first place, is not a good way to achieve the goals that BHVR had set out for this PTB.

    It's anti-tunnel, not 'the great tunnel rebalance'. The goal is to reduce tunnelling, not decrease its win rate.

    in Recall of PTB and tunneling issue Comment by Firellius

  • @tes said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4003626#Comment_4003626

    You cannot claim that tunnelling is a risk, while also asserting that there is no other way to win. Those are mutually exclusive positions.

    Why not?

    When u commit tunnelling on comp level, it because u literally have no other opportunities. But it doesn't cancel risk factor, it makes risking conscious only. It’ll stop being risky when it’ll lead to guarantee win. Do I really need to explain the meaning of “risk” word?

    https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/2X6NUWIK9OO2/img-1100.jpeg

    U can lose trial when tunnelling comp survivor? U can. Is it possible bad outcome? It is. Limited opportunities doesn't stop being risky just because they are limited.

    Do I really need to explain the meaning of “risk” word?

    Try it, because the way you're applying the word here is missing the point of it.

    It’ll stop being risky when it’ll lead to guarantee win.

    This is a terrible interpretation of the word 'risky'. This means that doing a generator while the killer is chasing someone else is also 'risky'. With this definition, everything in this game is 'risky', barring the mori on the fourth survivor and walking across the finish line.

    The problem you're running into with your argument is that the possibility of a loss is not a risk if it is a guarantee in all other situations.

    Choosing to tunnel is not 'risking a loss' if you are guaranteed a loss if you do not tunnel. If you are guaranteed to lose if you don't tunnel, then tunnelling is, by far, your safest bet.

    Do you understand?

    @tes said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4003626#Comment_4003626

    No. I'm not too concerned about the balancing outcome of tunnelling. I want tunnelling gone

    This just shows u expect simple answer on difficult things. Better not to contribute to the discussion at all in this sense. My post were up to balancing through slow systematic changes, with high consideration of balancing on every level and actual balancing. It doesn't mean “throw this to the bin because I hate this”. Let’s stop this us vs them then because we are literally consider game on different level, nothing usefull will be anyway.

    U can’t convince me with tunneling being hard to counterplay because I did it myself having less than 1k hour multiple times. And I have other issues that concerns me as solo Q more.

    This post just not meant for you.

    It's a public forum. You don't get a monopoly on feedback. When you argue something, I have the right to point out a different viewpoint.

    in Recall of PTB and tunneling issue Comment by Firellius

  • @tes said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4003607#Comment_4003607

    Except it's not a 'gamble' if it's the only way to win. At that point, it's just plain playing the game. To call it a gamble would suggest that it's a risky option to take, but apparently there is NO risk.

    It is still a risk. Because u may have not to be able to tunnel at all and it’ll be denied. U may be got unlucky and choose the hardest target for tunneling. U may have lack of time as source. Or not. It's an actual mix of play sense and gamble. When we talking about good players… U gambling with level of difficulty u set up when choose specific player for 1 vs 1. Because u don't know their perks, their skill, and u can't be sure in what position u’ll start the chase.

    Why create anti system rather than playing around it? Just because it's a simple answer(not) on difficult question? Look at ptb, it showed how such phantasy turns to a tragedy with mass rant and more tribalism. U don't have simple answer on tunneling, because it never was a mechanic introduced by devs and it never meant for being adjusted by numbers. As well as SFW never were meant to be, but we have them in the game. Naive thought that u can get rid of player’s perception of game that they brought themselves here and it had a set up of 9 years. Even in era of hide and seek media of dbd were obsessed with this two themes.

    U don't even deny that tunneling is a necessity on a top level. But u still want to get rid of it completely on this so called top level (because on low level tunneling will be cheesy anyway, even with approach that came from PTB). So the issue will stay the same and even sharp itself. Killers will be more toxic to low skill survivors or solo Q, they’ll find way to abuse in this game anyway, but they wouldn't be able to actually compete against players on high level no matter their skill. U wish to see this? What’s the difference then?

    More efficiency will boost tunneling, but it will make tunnelling harder for killers who playing bad. Aren’t u satisfied? Only when u aren’t able to compete with this strategy at all maybe, but it’s personal issue I bet. I’ll say it out loud - being unable to dodge tunnelling at all with so many perks for it now and when killer isn’t S tier is the same skill issue as players who play same S tier through 4 aura read/slowdown and call it valid. Complete lack of self awareness, tribalism, and desire to avoid any challenge. I’m not embarrassed to say it. When u have answer on case of tunneling - no matter, is it u or your teammate in term of perks and still fail, it either skill issue, either unorganized play. Game can make it easier and less stressful by good RGN, better UI and contributing actual learning of mechanics.Game can ban specific perks on specific killers and can stop creating characters like Ghoul. Skill issue must to be fixed by players themselves.

    It is still a risk.

    You cannot claim that tunnelling is a risk, while also asserting that there is no other way to win. Those are mutually exclusive positions.

    U may be got unlucky and choose the hardest target for tunneling.

    But the gamble you are referring to here is who to tunnel, not whether or not to tunnel. You have asserted that tunnelling is the only way to win. That means that choosing to tunnel is not a risk, because the alternative is a guaranteed loss.

    U don't even deny that tunneling is a necessity on a top level.

    I do disagree with this assertion and above all its relevance, but more importantly, I am not fighting this assertion because it is opposed to your own argument.

    Your assertion that tunnelling is a gamble is mutually exclusive with the claim that tunnelling is a necessity to win.

    If it is the only way to win, then choosing to use this strategy is not a gamble.

    So when I point out that choosing to use stealth is a massive gamble, you can't counter with 'well, choosing to tunnel is also a gamble' when you are also convinced that it is 100% the only path to victory. According to you, there's no reason to ever NOT tunnel, whereas there is plenty of reason to opt out of stealth play.

    Why create anti system rather than playing around it?

    Because tunnelling is extremely easy to do and extremely hard to counter, and we're not going to force newbie survivors to play like team eternal because someone is employing a strategy that a bot could run.

    Look at ptb, it showed how such phantasy turns to a tragedy with mass rant and more tribalism.

    And? Any change that would disparage tunnelling would always draw the ire of people who like to tunnel. The game shouldn't be governed by who can throw the biggest tantrum.

    U don't have simple answer on tunneling, because it never was a mechanic introduced by devs and it never meant for being adjusted by numbers. As well as SFW never were meant to be, but we have them in the game. Naive thought that u can get rid of player’s perception of game that they brought themselves here and it had a set up of 9 years. Even in era of hide and seek media of dbd were obsessed with this two themes.

    The game is malleable. If anything, the shift away from hide and seek shows that. This idea that the game is immutable is only being tossed around now because you want this particular thing to not change.

    More efficiency will boost tunneling, but it will make tunnelling harder for killers who playing bad. Aren’t u satisfied? 

    No. I'm not too concerned about the balancing outcome of tunnelling. I want tunnelling gone because it's awful for gameplay.

    being unable to dodge tunnelling at all with so many perks for it now and when killer isn’t S tier is the same skill issue as players who play same S tier through 4 aura read/slowdown and call it valid.

    Quick reminder: YOU asserted that killers have no other choice but to tunnel. Can't blame survivors for something that killers are forced to do by the game's base balance. Again, as asserted by you.

    in Recall of PTB and tunneling issue Comment by Firellius

  • @tes said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4003598#Comment_4003598

    It’s only way to win. But it doesn't guarantee 100% win, lol. Nothing contradicting. In a way to be able to compete u have to tunnel against pro teams while they handcapped by some ridiculous rules - that's it. If u tunnel pro team it doesn't mean u win. It means u CAN. Possibly. Not always.

    But is it harder than 12-hooking

    Why it have to be 12 hooking? Good play from survivor when they actually outplay killers usually mean killer barely have 6 hooks in endgame. Balanced games where skill matches usually have 1 kill-2 kills until the endgame. In advanced games it can include tunneling, because from survivor side it was extreme gen efficiency. Result would be the same.

    https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/LZCAPXZH3DKO/img-1097.png

    https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/0VUCWSV76ODK/img-1098.png

    In both screenshots below killers tried to tunnel but survivors denied it or they made unwise decision to switch targets - it cost game for them and it was 3-4 man escapes. I played duo sfw in both cases, other 2 - random players. If killer hook everyone twice before first kill and somehow survivors aren’t on gates already - MMR never was right in this match already. Nothing balanced in such games, as well as challenging, killer just got easy on you

    It’s only way to win. But it doesn't guarantee 100% win, lol. Nothing contradicting.

    Except it's not a 'gamble' if it's the only way to win. At that point, it's just plain playing the game. To call it a gamble would suggest that it's a risky option to take, but apparently there is NO risk.

    You either choose to use the strategy that gives a chance to win, or you choose the strategy that allegedly has no chance to win.

    Is it a 'gamble' to choose the former?

    Why it have to be 12 hooking?

    Because for anti-tunnel to be effective, it needs to encourage killers to not tunnel. Giving survivors the tools they need to be just as efficient as the most highly skilled and trained teams just so they can level the playing field against tunnelling does not fix tunnelling so long as tunnelling is still the preferred method.

    In fact, judging by what you said before, of tunnelling being the ONLY way to win against such efficient teams, boosting survivor efficiency would surely just cause more tunnelling, wouldn't it?

    in Recall of PTB and tunneling issue Comment by Firellius

  • @tes said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4003588#Comment_4003588

    As soon as u see good team that knows efficiency tunnelling is a gamble and investment as well. So, the issue is responsiveness, isn’t?

    So again - we should have more good teams and encourage efficiency on both sides maybe? Now survivors aren't encouraged to play safe and good. No matter how u play . If your teammate is sandbagging, it is your fault. So this system literally dicentivise any motivation to play effective on survivor until u not playing some SFW?

    The only way tunnelling doesn't work as gamble and highly risk challenge is the way how your opponents literally play. And what conditions your opponent have. If u are suddenly deprived of this convenient conditions and all survivors suddenly have fair RGN and can play as good as you - it is harder. If it's not blind run off the hook to the killer hug, careful play and healthy altruism along with focus on main objective - tunneling isn’t exploit anymore. So, maybe it wasn’t exploit since the start? So, just maybe, game have to provide such conditions for solo instead of 30 sec of MR invincible play?

    I played ptb myself, witnessed everything and just realized it was a way to flip coin on other side and that’s all. Nothing about balancing when u blindly believe in power of heavy nerfs and number tweaks. Look at the rework of “made for this” From blind % haste to a tool to encourage team play and heal meta use. Maybe whole game should look like this?

    As soon as u see good team that knows efficiency tunnelling is a gamble and investment as well. So, the issue is responsiveness, isn’t?

    See, you claim that, but I've also had years of forum killers insisting that tunnelling is the ONLY way to win at high level. So either these high level teams make tunnelling risky, or tunnelling is an absolute necessity against these high level teams.

    It can't be both.

    If u are suddenly deprived of this convenient conditions and all survivors suddenly have fair RGN and can play as good as you - it is harder.

    But is it harder than 12-hooking?

    Because if the answer is no, then it's not a tunnelling deterrent.

    in Recall of PTB and tunneling issue Comment by Firellius

  • @tes said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4003570#Comment_4003570

    The issue is - u can still do stealth, but it seems somehow it were “gutted” away as soon it was unviable in terms of long ignoring objective and making match even more long.

    I’m up to changing some aura read perks again (why u all ignoring this part of my comment) - but answer me, since when I should find stealth completely killed when I use it in game myself? Because I am playing for stealth when play survivor. It is harder now, yes. Tunnelling is also became harder, since introducion of base kit endurance, new shoulder the burden and simply more survivors playing better than many years ago. Both killers and survivor stuck in this anti - tunnel and anti-stealth meta as well to counter each other meta. But again, nothing were “killed”. U still can do this, it just requires more conditions and the actual issue game doesn't show it. Game doesn't teach and u have to spend thousand hours to distinct every perk and counter it. I’m up to changing it as well

    Would u be satisfied if some aura read perks on killers with high mobility or range would be banned? Can we find some compromise on this topic or it always had to be definite “u are wrong”?

    But your argument is that tunnelling shouldn't be nerfed because it's the efficient play.

    However, when stealth was an efficient play, it got nerfed anyway, and quite badly, too.

    Would u be satisfied if some aura read perks on killers with high mobility or range would be banned?

    No, because it's not specific to them. Whether it's Pig or Blight kicking the gen, Nowhere to Hide still points out your exact location and invalidates any attempt at stealth.

    Can we find some compromise on this topic or it always had to be definite “u are wrong”?

    There's not really a point of compromise here, the argument either flies or it doesn't.

    If we shouldn't be nerfing things because they're just the efficient play, then stealth should be reinstated.

    If efficient plays are not exempt from being nerfed just because they're efficient, then that argument should not be used in defense of tunnelling, either.

    @tes said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4003570#Comment_4003570

    The issue with stealth and tunnel comparassion how u push it is because the only way stealth is unviable is perks. Stealth never were base kit, it was an approach as well, but their nerf was pushed by optional gameplay of using perks. + some “base kit” as lighting rework. U still can commit to it, but good players or perks can punish you.

    What about tunnelling? Absolutely same. Side nerf for base BT/face camp scale + more antitunnel perks as optional play. U still can commit to it, but good player or perks can punish you.

    My whole post literally was about “it's fine to make tunneling harder. But not by blind number tweaks”. The only reason why tunnelling is easier because majority of teams are disorganized and game don't know how to fix it. So, survivors should be buffed by information? More free comms, the best possibility of perks synergy, better RGN, rework of the approach to killer powers with removing lazy creep mechanics? Effective play counter tunneling, so it’s not some exploit on its own. It's just showing the need we need to encourage for more effective play by buffing effective approach, alongside with fixing specific killer powers

    The issue with question “what makes tunnelling special” - because it isn't in any way. It's just an optimal approach. Telling it’s uncounterable so have to be nerfed - is what makes it actually “special”. In a really bad way

    The issue with stealth and tunnel comparassion how u push it is because the only way stealth is unviable is perks.

    Problem with that is that stealth requires a certain investment, and guessing wrong on whether a killer can see you is extremely costly. With the overabundance of extremely powerful intel perks, it's just generally not a viable option anymore. You can gamble on it, but you are likely to lose the match for yourself and your three teammates if you guess wrong.

    What about tunnelling? Absolutely same. 

    You'd have an argument if any of the tunnelling deterrents so far had anywhere near the same quality.

    Stealth into an intel perk turns from a survivor benefit to a heavy killer benefit.

    Tunnelling into anti-tunnel turns from heavy killer benefit to… Still a killer benefit. Anti-tunnel just isn't strong enough to make tunnelling not worthwhile. DS was, for a while, a serious consideration… And then it got nerfed. What you're left with is killers left and right still arguing that it's absolutely a valid choice to just tunnel off-hook, something that wouldn't be so readily considered if the threat of anti-tunnel perks was an actual deterrent.

    The only reason why tunnelling is easier because majority of teams are disorganized and game don't know how to fix it.

    This is just a loose assertion, though, with nothing to back it up, and I'm not convinced it's correct.

    in Recall of PTB and tunneling issue Comment by Firellius

  • @tes said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4003561#Comment_4003561

    I played such hide and seek games on both sides in custom matches. All it represents is new rules within a completely different game, and a complete disregard for objective-based play. There's no interactivity in a game where players studiously avoid interacting with generators or chases, even though the game assumes these are central to the experience. It's a good idea for events or private games, but not for a typical 1v4.

    By the way, can we get back to the post, or is this turning into a major off-topic? In that case, I might suggest you create a separate discussion if hide-and-seek is such an important topic for you

    Except these rules aren't new at all. Hiding has been in the game since its inception.

    'Complete disregard for objective-based play' - How? Isn't it part of the objective to stay alive? I can't work on gens if I'm dead, can I? If I can cost the killer precious time by hiding, why should I not be allowed to do so?

    There's no interactivity in a game where players studiously avoid interacting with generators or chases

    No one said anything about not interacting with generators. And chases will come if the killer manages to find their target.

    By the way, can we get back to the post, or is this turning into a major off-topic?

    It's a response to an argument -you- made:

    @tes said:



    CW: really long text.

    Hello. 

    I just want to try to explain here what concerned me this whole month in the most casual (and maybe emotional) way. This post is going to be very long, and considering English isn’t my native language, I have to try a lot to keep this post long yet simple, constructive yet subjective, and emotional yet not offensive at the same time. I would be grateful to everyone who will take it into account and will provide their further feedback!

    PTB and their main issue

    1. Poor technical implementation - the whole new mechanic with introducing zero collision caused many bugs related to killer power (like Legion, Pyramidhead, Ghostface, Twins, Cenobite). Antislug scale were also a lil broken, because even situations where killer didn't slug (survivor just used plot twist) were contributing to build the scale up.
    2. Base kits from already existing mechanics without proper consideration
    • BBQ

    Basically, we killed the original version and got the nerfed one in the base kit. Considering it always was counterable as well, I find this bonus extremely insignificant and not worthy to use. The main use of this perk on actual good players never were mindless chase finder. The main reason while this perk were viable on majority of killers is possibility for actual map control and understanding of each position. 

    • Pop

    25% of current progression is viable on killers with high mobility only, and alongside further nerfs of other meta perks, it was insufficient. Again, because of current progression. In PTB it was simply impossible to achieve same level of gen regression, yet anti-system changes were supposed to make trial longer. Yet it’s straightforward were impossible, if survivors actually worked on objective.

    • Haste

        I never found it fair when one side just mindlessly stacked haste only to make life easier, getting rid of any necessity in mind gaming and playing tiles using their sources, at the same time denying skill from other roles. You didn’t consider how actually problematic it looks on Springtrap, Spirit, and Clown. We should stop contributing to the already sensitive status system, making it even worse or abusable on specific killers. Moreover, for killers who actually needed it, haste would never be enough compared to actual mobility. And they won’t stack base kit with other perks - because usually their weakness hides in map pressure and chase at the same time, so they have to use slowdown or more viable chase perks that works most of the time. 

    This ptb changes give a clear message here - on really low level of play games indeed would like to finish as tie more. On above mid? This is definitely would be something worse than any solo Q experience. Why? 

    We got multiple nerfs considering 25% of current progression might be strong, but forgot to do the same for the survivor. Still keeping second chances perks, or buffing already extremely beneficial base kits. If we were actually up to balance, I thought devs will reduce half of numbers on gen rush perks and removed any second chances completely. Yet… devs decided to rework the same otr in a way that buffs base kit? Just… why? We also had other problems: 

    • No HUD info deprived the killer of any actual map control (alongside the buff of reassurance). As well as you directly encourage players to camp or run specific perks only to have base info that other role were already provided for free.
    • No collisions, prolonged haste (buffed babysitter), OTR provided a whole weapon as your teammate that can freely bodyblock, mess with other players' hitboxes, or simply deny killer’s power when u still can freely communicate with killers props. 
    • Complete death of any tracked tools, while unhooked survivors still keep as active members of the team. Killer instinct turns out to be redundant system. 
    • 6 hooks. I don’t want to even comment this. Just to get know - in games where I played survivor and we indeed deserved our win killer barely had 6 hook stages in endgame. Think for yourself what I'm hinting at.
    • Implemented tenacity and buffed unbreakable as a base kit. Uh… I think every tenacity user in effective SFW knows how broken it is. If not… I can’t advise western sources on this theme, but Russian streamers like Meydix and NighFuryo tested it, and it was pretty bad. We had a period of infinite unbreakable; why return to the same mistakes and make it even worse?

    Possible “crutch” or actual balancing?

    I think the fairest position should stay as it is—the game should have tools to utilize, and you should have the opportunity to use or not to use them. It’s not about what kill rate/escape rate you personally have. It’s not about the streaks people are doing in the media.

    We should stop asking for base kits unless it’s related to UI changes, accessibility, and info that will decrease the gap between solo and SWF. Why? If you buff the whole side by numbers, it’s going to lead to game-breaking scenarios and another so-called “emotional rant.” Both experienced survivors and killers were against the recent PTB, in case they took most of their matches seriously and were oriented on the PvP genre rather than abstract comprehension of fun.

    So, I tried to write down my personal proposals about QoL. Starting with small steps instead of drastic changes would be a more viable strategy for a long time period. We definitely need to make life of solo better. But if this changes are proposed in a way of some numbers, straight-off bonuses and ignores SFW/variability of killers it would be a lazy decision.

    The following proposals consider this system in relation to good RNG existence and equal skill on both sides. An actually working and balanced MMR assumes that people don’t actually struggle in this game on one side more than the other. That both sides encourage playing the game seriously or in the frame of the proposed (PvP) genre. I’m also considering that the game should provide proper UI changes to this system, making it intuitively clear when and how it’s working for both sides.

    • 10 sec of elusive endurance and haste after unhooking stays as it is and cancels only in the endgame. Elusive is lost as soon as you act (pallet drop, killer prop interaction, and flashlight usage should be included). I strongly recommend keeping it about cancelling in the endgame because this part has a shorter duration of the whole game sequence, and if a survivor gets downed there, it means they are getting downed. It’s not about tunneling anymore, and the only incentives you get in the endgame should be provided by how you played the game as a whole + optional perks. I also look at this from the perspective of a survivor who has suffered many times in the endgame, because blindly counting on a free human shield in the form of a wounded teammate always led to senseless and even deadly altruism. Players should not have a "tricky tool" that may mislead the team to unsafe decisions. IMO.
    • If a survivor is unhooked and the killer initiates a chase, they get the adrenaline rush effect for the next minute:

    About the Adrenaline Rush Effect:

    • After taking a hit and enduring it, you keep haste for up to 3-5 seconds (so, let the survivor who is tunnelled get out of the dead zone). Your scratch marks disappear 50% faster, and you don’t leave pools of blood for 60 seconds. Dead Hard will have huge potential to become an actual anti-tunnel perk on its own. And skill-related. If it was hit straight off the hook, you can gain more distance by getting out of zone or make the role of the saver more preferable for the killer to chase. I don’t personally appreciate this and call it a “crutch,” but if we believe it’s unbelievably hard to endure 1 vs 1 from typical solo queue… here it is.
    • Every survivor within a range of 32 m of you can see each other.
    • You can see the aura of lockers, windows, and pallets for 60 seconds within a 24 m range. You don’t create noise when fast vaulting objects.

    Other effects that also might help solo:

    • From the start of the trial, the survivor sees the aura of one random generator. After gen completion, the target changes.
    • When a survivor is hooked/slugged, you and your teammates see each other’s aura within the killer’s terror radius.
    • When a survivor is injured, everyone sees the aura of the injured within a 16 m range. The injured survivor also sees the aura of their teammates in this range.
    • If you have a hook state and are injured, you have a 100% chance to get a brown med-kit on your first chest opening. Sounds unimportant, but it can make a big difference when your solo teammates are busy or deny your healing, forcing unsafe situations. Many inexperienced players also like to open chests, so making them slightly more useful isn’t harmful. I think chests should also introduce a 50% chance of key spawn if one survivor is left in a trial.
    • Maps now can “point” at objects and highlight auras by default. You can now highlight up to 3 objects at the same time (hook, generator, chest, exit gates, totems).
    • Survivors see the aura of any dropped item until it’s fully depleted.
    • Rework of hatch locations: on every map they can spawn only in 3 specific locations (shack, main building, within 24 meters of one of the gates). The hatch closes itself after 60 seconds (to deny camping from the killer or AFK play).
    • If you are the only survivor left in a trial, you open gates 100% faster.
    • Antislug proposal (it doesn't cancel slug as a way of pressure but makes slugging irrelevant or extremely risky if you are commuting to it as the main playstyle). It also shouldn't harm Twins/Oni with their core design to down survivors over a far distance between each other.
    • If you are put in the dying state, you make 50% less noise. You can recover up to 99% progress.
    • If another teammate is put down as well, both of you have a 100% bonus to recovering, and you are crawling faster. You can crawl and recover at the same time. After this, you can pick each other up by pressing the ability button on your slugged teammate. Both of you get a 50% speed boost for 3  seconds, and you get the adrenaline rush effect.
    • If two survivors are left in a trial and one of them is downed for more than 30 seconds, this survivor can disconnect without penalty AND without losing match progress (the DC will be equal to being killed). It auto-triggers the hatch (no bot replacement).

    Comms proposal

    This is actually a huge need for Solo. I was thinking about adding something like a special gesture to point at the area of a location you want to show your teammate and a few additional phrases that will be seen close to the survivor HUD, like

    “Go there.”
    “Avoid this place.”
    “Generator”
    “Totem”
    “Teammate there”
    “Exit”
    “Help me.”

    Pre-lobby perks loadout

    I’m against the opinion of people who don’t want to see this feature only because of potential lobby dodging. Maybe it’s the duty of the game not to create perks that encourage dodging? You also have pre-game chat; nothing prevents a player from warning their teammates about specific perks for achievements. I always did it myself numerous times without this feature, so my teammates could either support me or leave if they wanted to focus on winning. As a killer, I don’t mind it either.

    • It should help with the main issue—when your teammates draw false conclusions due to not having enough information, making team-oriented builds inefficient.

    But if the changes were to turn out to be so disadvantageous, I would suggest an alternative in the form of additional roles that change the character’s HUD icon like in 2 vs 8 and inform others about what role the teammate wants to take on. It also would be nice if each of the class would have some interesting passive effect everyone would be aware of.

    Rating

    The most controversial take here, but… I had numerous matches in a row where teammates ruined the game for everyone, just wanting their flashlight save. When 3 out of 4 people refuse to do gens, leading to poor time management while the killer just eats sources and hooks stages. The only time I experienced the desire to give up was in matches like this. Not when someone tunneled me. If such people would have a higher probability of playing with players alike, solo queue would breathe easier.

    Addressing many posts I witnessed during PTB

    Just a hot take here?  It’s counterintuitive for the core design of PvP games to force one side to play less aggressively only for the other to catch up (it should stay as an option, however) and “have fun.” Just because you want to make an already casual game even more casual.

    Playing a little bit less than 1k, but treating this game kind of seriously (not really, otherwise I played ladder or league), and trying both roles made me feel the average survivor skill floor is lower than the killer one. THAT’S the issue. The majority of survivors are ignoring simple truths—the other role they are going against consist less of such players, and they usually treat the game completely differently. Killers don’t have “funny chat” interaction or a sense of team play to entertain themselves, and the aesthetic of slasher and horror encourages playing to win in this specific role. They don't have the opportunity to “take a rest” on holding M1 interaction with gen, and the constant surround of 4 players, if they are capable of competing, puts them in pretty stressful circumstances, leading to more direct gameplay focused on winning and can lead to an aggressive style. Their perk roster for effectiveness and “funny” builds is 10x more limited and extremely specific to each killer. Mechanics work there as well—due to some variability of powers and requirements to learn it. Skill expressions are way more natural for killers. Survivors? It always was a hidden gem due to how this role was designed, among the chaotic behavior of 4 people. That’s where I found an answer to why it’s worse first for solo survivors. This game created a natural incentive for the killer to try to be as efficient as possible, yet failed to do the same on the survivor side. It’s an unnatural, fleeting moment the majority of players don’t notice. And we have other numerous problems, which are present in every match. Fixing it by limiting other roles isn’t the answer and never will be.

    I know that my words above wouldn’t be enough, so here is a more thorough address of popular takes:

    “Tunneling is an easy strategy and exploit.”

    It is, indeed, easier strategy. Because effective. Why we should discourage to play effective? Because average survivor player didn't learn how to play effective as well? Maybe, to make it harder for killer, instead of providing lazy invincible power, survivors should get better RGN and taught how to counter it? So only survivors who actually progress in game receive bonuses? 

    People who claim tunneling is easy make it easy for the killer.

    The first kill supposed to happen from 2 gen to 1 in actually balanced matches no matter game style your opponent choose and you can secure it by good RNG and effectiveness. If killer use effectiveness, it should be countered by same approach. Not due to someone dying so other members get a free catch-up tool. Because when this tool is desperately needed, it wouldn’t be enough anyway, but in balanced trials where tunnelling worked as well though strategy or desperation attempt of comeback, it switches the game on adaptability difficulty for one role, ignoring previous decisions of the other role and their influence, leading to unexpected fine. I will never understand why games should punish people for logically effective strategies only because it affects their opponents in a bad way. So I indeed will not understand why some people in community claim gen rush/tunnel should be punished by system, and not as responsive play. Game should encourage effectiveness only, as well as encourage heavy counterplay. Not creating it itself

    If you don’t tunnel/slug/hold 3 gen/proxy camps, you’ll never win the game in macro and efficiency against a team actually equal to your skills, so you have to stomp 99% of the lobbies by chases. This is straightforward impossible as expecting solo be aware of what of potential 160 perks their teammates have for loadout. 

    People in this community have a tendency to blame in a skill issue on the part that decided to combine their chase potential with map economy, which is actually showing a deeper understanding of gameplay. It can’t be a skill issue when players commit to an effective strat as a way to put pressure. It’s a skill issue when you fail doing it or can’t show any resistance.

    Game doesn't learn survivors how to deal with actual pressure. Split up, gen efficiency — something so small and not requires comp level of understanding the game, yet people fail. Why? Game never actually punished people with high level of selfishness on the side where it is supposed to be a team play, and moreover, put this punishment on killer/other survivors usually. And until we’ll move from escape and kill rate to actually strict win conditions that focus on 1 vs 4 factor, where such players will forever stay in low tab, nothing will change. My teammate played bad? We’ll all lose MMR then. And I have to deal with more of such teams in solo, stucking in same pattern as some kind of nightmare. Even me can threw up matches, but somehow game doesn't do anything to encourage player to fix it.

    Maybe it's not fun, but with the contribution of many second-chance perks, this game is indeed about resource management. Killers understood this a long time ago, because the specificity of being alone on the game usually forces you to manage time. For survivors this game, unfortunately, doesn’t have clear signs, while the media is over-obsessed with chases.

    Tunneling isn’t some “exploit”—at least because it has actual counterplay, at max because it’s a characteristic trait in every asymmetric game. BHVR already gave us a lot of extremely busted tools that limits tunneling, but apparently failed to teach how to use it. Watching gameplay years ago when everyone one knew about “tapping” the hook for save rescue and comparing it to nowadays, more of such changes just leads to deteriorating skills on survivor side. People forgot everything they knew cause received another base kit they can rely on. 

    “But stats claim the survivor role is underpowered, so it requires incentives for catching up.”

    Do we really wanna to rely on stats where…

    1. They consider matches where the killer/survivor farms
    2. They consider games where a person disconnected and it gave an evident advantage to the killer. 
    3. Games where survivors or specific one just gave up for no reason or played typical “bully squad” style, where instead of completing main objectives, it was a 20-minute match of interaction with the killer 
    4. Games where teammates are feeding/cooping with the killer

    For numerous people on this forum, with all my respect, do you really want to use official stats as an argument when Sadako, arguably one of the weakest killers in the game, has a busted kill rate in general due to how people simply don’t know anything about counterplay because the design of this game didn’t provide it? 

    Stats will turn out to be viable when this game will have clear win conditions. And when people who play for fun and who play for challenge will be separated.

    Tribalism and why it exist 

    Tunneling never was a mechanic with the possibility to tweak numbers introduced by devs. It has always been an approach to the game from a player and lives in the nature of every asymmetric game. It's pointless to fight with this factor along with the SFW one. It's pointless to shame people for playing like this, because it's a deal of their view on the game.

    The uniqueness of killer ability already encourages a learning curve (besides the dash slop epidemic or recent decrease of actually complicated mechanics), but a complete generic approach to perks and, therefore, survivors creates an invisible barrier for the other group. I wouldn’t like to call it a mass skill issue, because I’m playing survivor myself. But the way it was designed heavily implies this. Micro limited, macro neglected. And we planning to push it further with generic dash/teleport slop, auto hits/grab scan, primitive props, repetitive perks, limitation of approaches. Can I receive answer why? Anyone above 1k hours will be just tired from playing games where u supposed to play PvP, but it turns out u fight with the system. One side is indeed “underpowered”. Because game didn’t show the value of time and resources. And it can falsely mislead to the situation where “it’s my opponent and not my problem”. 

    Survivors need to have incentives. But not free one. As well as some Myers unviable without a tombstone, survivors have to be glued with their meta. But then why are we trying to rework killers as a first response to this problem, but with survivors suddenly having to point fingers on the other side and tell them they are the problem? I don't get such logic.

    “The game is indulging killer players.”

    I would like to say specific killers are just devs’ favorites, or they simply don’t know what to do with their powers, probably limited by their technical capabilities. The way BHVR quickly responded to the fog vials and PTB issue can be explained as it is—they’ll prefer for one person to be waiting to matchmake rather than 4, as well as they’ll prefer to quickly react to the “emotional rant” of the minority, which keeps the game playable. This changes also caused many bugs in technical terms. Too much I want to say. 

    The last released meta on survivors that works as slowdow was shoulder the burden. No rework/nerfs, even when it’s still pretty buggy. Last released meta slowdown on killers? Artist’s scourge hook, that went through 3 nerfs and one “buff” that was motivated by horrible bug. And were almost nerfed to the ground on PTB. The Ghoul/Clown existence is a consequence of PTB not working as actual testing system and complete neglect of feedback, where many killer players weren’t denying their problematic gameplay and asked for not pushing it to the live. So, where is actually that “indulging to the role”? Attention? Absolutely, but not indulging. 

    So, about true balancing.

    I have never seen positions from players who seek “fun” or balance factor statements like “Let’s remove both tunneling and the SFW factor.” No tunneling, but no way to deny killer pressure from chases by stun saves, flashlights, sabos, and second chances as well, so killers won’t feel they need to tunnel”

    Such people were advocating for a mass nerf of slowdown, like genuinely believing 25% of current progression is indeed a strong tool and requires the death of everything else viable in the game. But for survivors? You were able to stack everything with the new system, overbuffing yourself on the level of some nurse. No one pointed it out when told about number tweaks. So, indeed—if they are going to tell me they are up to balance, I won’t believe it. Not anymore.

    This game have to balance around BOTH average and top players. And of course it’s gonna be hard. Especially when u want to remove any encouragement for playing better and handling them on the most primitive way, at the same time putting whole responsibility on other role to deal with consequences of this decision.

    Why we should discourage to play effective? Because average survivor player didn't learn how to play effective as well?

    Stealth can be effective, and it got ripped out anyway. So you can't really argue that tunnelling shouldn't be nerfed because 'it's just playing effective'.

    It's just showing that you're arguing something that the game has already moved past.

    in Recall of PTB and tunneling issue Comment by Firellius

  • @tes said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4003550#Comment_4003550

    Because hiding was an avoid way of any interactivity on a trial where two sides that are supposed to interact. Clear answer here. And because it was as well the way to keep players hostage. Or selfish plays where people were using it for waiting whole team to die for getting simple hatch. Hiding were able to harm both teammates and killer. That’s why it was highlighted as issue.

    U still can hide in the trial, but u can’t do it forever, by the way. Want to see examples? Watch KnightLight solo q streak rn. As well as when survivor provides anti tunnel perks, killer provides anti stealth. Listen me up. I’m distortion user. Still, despite its nerf. Maybe it would be nice to have +1 token from the start, but now already it’s pretty balanced.

    I’m up to reworking aura perks, actually. I’m even up to ban aura read on specific killers like nurse. But again - your comment isn’t about direct response on my post. Is another whataboutism and tribalism contribution. So, I will wait until u’ll give actual response rather than forcing other people to answer on your questions only. Stealth wasn’t mentioned in this post. U just pushed it here in attempt of “but what about this”, and that’s all. Try better next time

    Because hiding was an avoid way of any interactivity on a trial where two sides that are supposed to interact.

    That's not really true, though. Hide and Seek isn't a game of 'no interaction'. It's just one that killers don't like.

    in Recall of PTB and tunneling issue Comment by Firellius

  • You want to just give killers a whole extra perk? For free?

    in My idea for a totem/hex change Comment by Firellius

  • @TheArbiter said:

    The killer perks disguised as survivor known as invocations

    Their existence is an insult to the survivor playerbase.

    in Weak perks that you hate Comment by Firellius

  • There wasn't nearly enough time to collect sufficient and sufficiently high quality data to justify such a drastic adjustment. It was 100% the outcry.

    And frankly, with how fast it got pulled, I wager that it wasn't even the PTB reaction, but the doomposting ahead of its release.

    in PTB Recall - Was it really Killer outcry or was it actual dev data? Comment by Firellius

  • @Shinkiro said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4002886#Comment_4002886

    Yup same, plenty of killers give second chances and pity escapes and extra points at the end (including me). Never had survivors give up gens so i can catch up, or pity hooks and kills or anything like that, just the usual BMing. The expectations are one way only it seems, Killer has to play for survivors sake but not the other way round in any capacity. If its so one way i dunno why people are surprised others don't really care about their opponents experience when they never afford the same courtesy back.

    There shouldn't be any expectations of one sided "niceness" in a PvP game when everyone is playing within the rules. It's counter productive to the nature of PvP games.

    Mercy can only be given by the victors, and until they're over the finish line, survivors haven't won. The killer isn't out of it until survivors are at the map's edge beyond the gate, and even then, there's killers that can still yoink a kill or two.

    in Your game is incredibly unbalanced. By design? Comment by Firellius

  • @oecrophy said:

    I only know my lobbies. I have no idea about the new player/mid MMR lobbies in the current state, it hasn’t been my touchpoint for too long. like I said: stealth is usually not a thing in my lobbies, or only super situational. don’t know why stealth is such a huge topic here -> for me as killer it’s always an ez win, as survvior I get these people too rarely. if necessary, take a few chases nd go next. so yup, I don’t see the problem

     don’t know why stealth is such a huge topic here

    You don't know, or you don't want to know?

    Because I've posed you the same question multiple times and every single time you play dumb.

    in Does DBD favor killers? Comment by Firellius

  • @oecrophy said:

    I'd like to see you try and stop a hard tunneller from doing exactly that. Let's see how good you are at making a killer that is intent on tunnelling, stop tunnelling.

    I'd like to see you try and stop a hard tunneller from doing exactly that. Let's see how good you are at making a killer that is intent on tunnelling, stop tunnelling.

    nah. when I pick someone and decide to tunnel, I full commit — but survivors gotta give me that window first. why would I proxy in a (for me) dead zone with nothing there (no important gens), with no clue on unhook timing, no gen info, and zero side pressure while i proxy?? especially if they’re milking the hook timer. once I’ve rotated across the map into the zone I wanna hold, it’s not worth the efficiency to run back just to force a tunnel. so yipp : if I tunnel, I tunnel — that person ain’t getting out. do I want to tunnel every time? hell no. if they go down in smart zones and actually play macro, tunneling nukes my tempo. why would I grief my own pressure?

    Let me just pull the pin here and make your whole entire argument collapse: Nothing you've talked about so far puts any distance between tunnelling and regular play. Nothing you've talked about makes tunnelling less advantageous than chasing a fresh target.

    ALL of this is simply you complaining about bad survivor plays and then acting like it is that, and only that, that makes tunnelling profitable.

    Not the early 1v3 and the default much shorter chase given the survivor starts with one evaporated health state, but just… 'Hookbombing bad'.

    Take this, for example:

    nah. tunneling puts a totally different kind of pressure on the team. said it a bunch already. as long as people still have hook states and don’t feel tunnel pressure, they laser-focus gens. it’s not about “one less health state” — plenty of survivors stay injured and keep pushing gens anyway. the real pressure is you pushing someone toward dead hook.

    and when the killer isn’t tunneling and folks still have hook stages, there’s way less reason to play safe: no need to reset, no avoiding dead-zone gens — “i’ve still got a hook stage.” that’s the difference. this difference is huuge.

    You know how this differs from non-tunnelling?

    The 're-spot' and finding a survivor actually exist and cost time here. They don't, with tunnelling. That's all basekit and free.

    you act like only cuz re-spot just vanishes when you tunnel. it doesn’t cost— you pay it in a different currency: while you hover, 2–3 survivors are doing gens, resetting, or setting up cover/bodyblocks.

    choosing to tunnel (especially early, not on dead hook) is a macro loss — it drags you off your gen cluster. that’s why tunnel often isn’t worth it once survivors play smart: they go down in good zones (nothing for you there) and actually play macro.

    once you’ve rotated over, running back to keep the tunnel is inefficient. a fresh chase at a hot gen usually protects more progress than hook babysitting at this moment.

    You get 10 seconds of extra gen progress, but in exchange, you go down to a 1v3 in one full chase and two half-chases.

    No one is taking that trade.

    Again, all you are talking about are things that are even between tunnelling and non-tunnelling, failing to construe any meaningful difference between the two.

    You can get as verbiose as you like, you can say 'macro' as often as you like, your argument still falls flat because the game simply doesn't work the way you have conjured it into your head.

    None of what you have mentioned makes tunnelling work less than non-tunnelling.

    i already explained verything.. you can tell you haven’t even put 100 hours in since 2021. can’t help you there — go get your own experience. I’ve already laid out the differences; if you don’t see them, that’s a game sense gap. i cannot help u there to get more gamsense.

    and yup, tunneling gets way less attractive when people go down in bad zones for the killer — places with nothing to proxy, no hot gens to guard, no easy side pressure. if they milk the full hook timer (those extra 10s are huuuge), pull last-second (trade if needed), and layer in the right perks, you lose tempo a lot by choosing to tunnel there. that’s the difference. you lose the game.

    tunnel is a tool, not an auto-win. pick it in the wrong spot and you grief your own pressure.

    Tunnelling doesn't teach anyone anything. Normal play teaches them significantly more.

    it does, just not the lesson you prefer. survivors learn hook-timer discipline, trade calls, bodyblock timing, off-hook routes, when to reset vs. better slam this damn , and how to play smart and not to aggressive because its a threat to get found. and how important it is to use ur time during this match.

    Everything you have spoken about has been presented without a single shred of supporting evidence, it's all just been whatever you feel like.

    not even about how I feel ehw?— this changes.. it’s about how survivors feel. this is a change that isn’t technically needed for balance; it’s there to reduce newbie frustration from players who don’t want to learn the game and get overwhelmed by a tunnel. (better info + better MMR would be the real fix.)

    Then give better stats. Give better numbers. 

    https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/SS5WTQ9L8ES5/image.png

    i don’t put much stock in these rates, but here are the latest numbers. like I said, imo they’d skew harder against survivors if people actually played macro. but this is what BHVR has published — and it’s the target they balance toward. idk.. my pov:this stats dowsnt say much and do not show what happens ingame.

    …

    Really?

    You complain about KR being a bad metric and when challenged to provide better stats, you answer by posting KR?

    This is just plain trolling at this point.

    in Does DBD favor killers? Comment by Firellius

  • @oecrophy said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4002498#Comment_4002498

    But 'survivors are just bad, git gud' is perfectly fine?

    Yh, at this point survivors just need to git gud — the mistake is on their side. So why punish the killer for capitalizing on it?

    On the point “Tunneling/Camping/Slugging are 100% enforceable by the killer”: Sure, the killer can always try that. But whether it’s worth it is decided by the team’s behavior. If survivors pull instantly in a panic, everyone heals right at the hook, and nobody is on gens, tunneling is cheap and feels unstoppable. If the survivor team, on the other hand, splits (2–3 on gens), prepares the save (two healthy, bodyblock line, path to a usable tile), and doesn’t pull through the killer’s face, tunneling becomes expensive: the killer burns time at the hook, loses map pressure, and the gens progress in the meantime.

    Concrete mini-examples:

    Bad for survivors: instant unhook in front of the killer’s nose, everyone stays in the hook area, zero gen progress → quick re-down, killer gets value “for free.” “Free” is it only from the survivor perspective—the killer pays for it with time at the hook, lost map control, and missed gen pressure; the survivor team only enabled this discount with weak macro.

    Good for survivors: only pull when gens are ticking; two healthy players screen, the rescued one has a clear path; if necessary, a short trade → even if there’s a down, the killer is worse off, and the map works for the survivor team.

    Important: the killer can apply pressure, but cannot press the unhook button. An “unsafe save” is mostly created by survivor decisions and their timing—not by magic. Here too: the mistake is clearly on the survivor side.

    What does that mean for the game? These tactics don’t have to go away. If you tunnel, you give up time/map control for it. If you spread pressure, you get tangible advantages for it. Then it’s a real decision—not a default template.

    Tunneling/Camping/Slugging aren’t automatically “free.” They only become strong when survivors deliver bad saves, no gen split, and poor timing. If the survivor team plays it clean, it costs the killer real time—and that’s exactly how it should be. And yes, in all these points the survivor team is playing poorly.. so why should the killer be put at a disadvantage as soon as he reacts to bad survivor playstyles?

    í mean…

    Time window: pickup → carry → hook → re-spot → find the same survivor again → second chase. During this time, 2–3 survivors work undisturbed on gens, rotate, or set bodyblocks.

    Loss of position for survivors: Anyone who “stays at hook / or dances around the hook with the killer right after the hook” gives up map control. Gens are neglected, totems/chests get done, pressure on the survivor side is lost → the tunnel becomes lucrative and “ez” → granted by bad survivor play, so it’s not free for the killer. Given by the survivors.

    Chasereset risk: The tunneled person has escape windows or (if free BT isn’t enough) team protection windows (safe unhook, bodyblock, window path, pallets). If the fast down fails, a lot of time is burned.

    Conclusion: The killer can start tunneling, but they don’t “force” a good trade if the team plays macro correctly.

    so y.. why, why should the killer get a disadvantage at this point?

    If everyone heals under hook, tunneling is “ez.”
    Split 2–3 to gens (or finish a key gen) and the tunnel gets expensive.

    A planned trade (two healthy, path prepped, pallets/window in reach) shifts the value: the killer might get the down, but loses too much time/position. The killer can build proxy pressure (patrol, angle, threaten a hit), but they don’t press the unhook button.

    Whether the unhook is unsafe comes from survivor decisions: who goes, when the pull happens, where the tank happens, which path is prepped, and whether others are on gens or just standing around.

    Good macro (survivor side):
    Unhook only when two gens are already 50%+ (or done — those extra 10 seconds survivors got are strong, use them). Two healthy screen the line, the tunneled survivor runs to a prepared strong tile → even if there’s a down, gens/progress and position are already far ahead.

    Bad macro (tunnel becomes ez):
    Instant unhook, everyone heals at hook, people left gens early, nobody on gens → quick re-down and the map stood still. After the unhook, the chase even drifts into high-prog gens (which the hook player could’ve seen — watch it), and no cover happens.

    No. I'm talking about how your argument is rubbish. No one mentioned 3-genning.

    Fact is: the mere fact that the killer can tunnel once survivors neglect their macro forces them to play smart if they don’t want the tunnel — and that means: avoid it. And that often means → pull the chase away from relevant zones, don’t path the most optimal structures, no gen-greed between or inside key gens, don’t risk too many injuries in important zones. As long as the threat of a hard tunnel exists the moment survivors make those mistakes, it buys a lot of time for the killer → because survivors have to shape their macro plan around it. If you disadvantage tunneling per se, survivors can fully neglect their macro on this point, freely gen-greed, not care where they go down, or drag the killer into zones that are irrelevant for tunneling. That’s the logic.

    Call it “rubbish” if you want — it doesn’t change the equation.

    The anti-tunnel window takes pressure off the unhook: less need for setup/bodyblocks/positioning (aka less caution, “the killer can’t anyway”).
    The saved team time turns straight into gen time (greed on/between key gens).
    Result: more gen percent per unhook, even if the killer plays it correctly.

    Once anti-tunnel is active, it’s worth it for survivors to gen-greed and cut macro (setup/paths/screening) — purely by the numbers we’re talking ~½ to >1 gen progress per unhook window with 2–3 survivors pumping, no big setup needed. And if the killer still hard tunnels and someone dies early, +25% repair and no regression/blocks kick in → even more “free gen time.”
    Anti-tunnel = less setup, more gen-greed, more percent per pull — and all that without the big dead-hook threat breathing down your neck. And for what? For letting the survivor side get away with worse play.

    But when tunnelling does this, who cares, right?

    We should—because tunneling isn’t a free handout, it’s a priced choice (time/position: pickup → carry → hook → refind → second chase — and no, against strong players it isn’t “free”: it takes clean movement/pathing, tight mindgames at pallets/windows, power economy & cooldown management, pre-cutting routes and zoning to deny strong tiles, knowing when to fake vs. commit, tracking spawns/rotations, and macro - miss a read and you burn the window, lose position, or hand out distance).

    It only prints value when survivors misplay macro. The PTB changes hand out post-unhook freebies (safety + info delay, even +25% repair & no regression/blocks on early deaths), so outcome comes from the patch, not smart survivor play.

    Yeah, that doesn't do anything to refute that tunnelling frustrates the learning process.

    Even in true newbie v. newbie, pressure is how people learn. Safe unhooks, gen split, pathing away from key tiles, timing—those are the exact skills tunnelling tests. If the patch hands out post-unhook freebies (safety + info delay, then +25% repair & no regression on early deaths), survivors can ignore that macro and still get paid. That doesn’t teach; it carries.

    And,.. some frustration is part of asym PvP—no pressure, no learning curve, no real trade-offs. That’s PvP: you’re not alone; there are other humans in the lobby. If you want zero frustration, cozy single-player or co-op is the move.

    It’s always going to feel frustrating when the other side wins — that’s just PvP.

    Except historically, pretty much ALL killers do better at high MMR than middle or lower. There were a few that had minor drops or stayed the same while the rest pushed higher kill rates, which suggests that it's not a selection effect at all: Higher MMR is just more killer-sided.

    KR = pure vibes. A 3K after 5 completed gens counts the same as a 3K at 0 gens. First one feels like “I bled for it,” second is a steamroll. KR can’t tell the difference.

    Pace matters. As killer it’s about buying time: pickup → carry → hook → refind → 2nd chase. If survivors split/save clean, that’s expensive — KR doesn’t see it. KR also can’t tell if they ignored macro and still printed progress.

    PTB anti-tunnel makes it even greedier: post-unhook freebies + info delay = survivors skip setup/bodyblocks and pump gens.
    And if you look closer, you see it constantly: tons of 4Ks were a survivor win if they just accept the -1 instead of forcing the 4-man like it’s their birthright.

    Or situations like:

    • One is dead hook in a dead zone, gens are done, gates ready. Best option: 3 out. Instead: hero save → bad trade → chain downs → ends 0/1 out.
    • Gate 99, killer holds the choke. Just cut losses. Instead: bodyblock for style points, eat an M1, get pushed into EGC → snowball.
    • “Last unhook” with no setup, everyone injured, no path → 2 freebies + hook swap. 10s greed becomes 30–60s of killer time → wipe.
    • Heal party at hook instead of resetting offsite → I peek a corner, tag two → hook swap + free pressure, 0 gen percent in that window.
    • Unhook in my LOS (no angle/screen) → pull through my face, double hit, rescuer injured, rescued with no path → fast re-down.
    • Chase through the gen cluster instead of out into dead space → team leaves gens, I hold the cluster and get info for free.
    • Tap mentality: three gens at 40–70% instead of finishing one → every kick buys me minutes, your progress evaporates.
    • Perma-injured (no offsite reset) → short chases, recycled hooks, map pressure stays mine.

    Lots of 4Ks are really 3-outs thrown in the midgame. Take the -1 and leave — that’s a survivor win. Forcing the 4-man from a losing state just feeds the snowball.

    Which is still better than the absolute absence of any and all evidence that has been presented to support any claims about the game being survivor-sided.

    It's always anec-data being thrown up and tired, desperate shadows of arguments being regurgitated over and over again with a hell of a lot of dogmatic thinking behind it.

    If your only “evidence” is a blunt outcome number (KR), that’s not a rebuttal—it’s a hammer that makes everything look like a nail. Show stratified data (MMR, SWF vs. solo, maps, killer picks), or stop yelling “anecdotes!” while waving a single number.

    I’ve already shared recordings from comp matches (strong survivors vs. strong killers) where the survivor side wins pretty consistently — even with tight survivor-side limits. I’ve also posted VODs from my own matches. It’s all there, free to analyze.

    Meanwhile you’re waving a single number that’s shaped by a ton of pub-lobby noise and a not-so-great MMR system. KR is an aggregate outcome, not proof — it’s heavily influenced by lobby mix , resets/decay, softplay/ farming, altruism, and mis-matched MMR. If you want evidence, analyze the footage; don’t hide behind one blunt metric.

    Do you have short term amnesia?

    You do realise that this plays exactly to my argument, right?

    Stealth was a valid, viable tool for survivors and got gutted anyway, because killers disliked it.

    So why is tunnelling being a 'valid, viable tool' for killers any reason for it to not get gutted?

    My experience isn’t yours. In my lobbies, stealth was mostly defended by stealth players only. Teammates usually hated it (often even outing the stealth player to the killer), and killers liked seeing a stealth gamer because it slowed the match and basically handed them an easy win. Different lobbies, different experiences—I get that, but that’s what I’ve consistently seen.

    A bad tunnel that turns too expensive is a killer’s own decision; if I commit and it costs me, I just sabotaged myself. A stealth teammate, though, forces the rest of the team into a 3v1 (or 2.5v1) with zero agency to fix i

    Back when old Distortion was around, you’d often see teammates outing the stealth player out of frustration (pointing, sandbagging, dragging the killer over) — which kind of proves the point: the frustration was aimed at the stealther from the survivor side, not some killer conspiracy.

    A too-expensive tunnel punishes the killer who chose it. A stealth teammate punishes everyone else who didn’t choose it. Different tools, different impact on team experience.

    Only my experience. but maybe in your lobbys stealth was a bigger thing. different mmr, different lobbys i guess.

    As killer I’m always happy to get stealth players—if you actually run into them. It’s an easy, chill win in between the sweaty games.

    Yh, at this point survivors just need to git gud — the mistake is on their side. So why punish the killer for capitalizing on it?

    I'd like to see you try and stop a hard tunneller from doing exactly that. Let's see how good you are at making a killer that is intent on tunnelling, stop tunnelling.

    On the point “Tunneling/Camping/Slugging are 100% enforceable by the killer”: Sure, the killer can always try that. But whether it’s worth it is decided by the team’s behavior.

    The massive essay that follows this is one giant, unsubstantiated gish gallop that barely manages to construe a point more salient than 'hookbombing bad'.

     If the survivor team plays it clean, it costs the killer real time

    Let me just pull the pin here and make your whole entire argument collapse: Nothing you've talked about so far puts any distance between tunnelling and regular play. Nothing you've talked about makes tunnelling less advantageous than chasing a fresh target.

    ALL of this is simply you complaining about bad survivor plays and then acting like it is that, and only that, that makes tunnelling profitable.

    Not the early 1v3 and the default much shorter chase given the survivor starts with one evaporated health state, but just… 'Hookbombing bad'.

    Take this, for example:

    Time window:

     pickup → carry → hook → re-spot → find the same survivor again → second chase. During this time, 2–3 survivors work undisturbed on gens, rotate, or set bodyblocks.

    You know how this differs from non-tunnelling?

    The 're-spot' and finding a survivor actually exist and cost time here. They don't, with tunnelling. That's all basekit and free.

    Once anti-tunnel is active, it’s worth it for survivors to gen-greed and cut macro (setup/paths/screening) — purely by the numbers we’re talking ~½ to >1 gen progress per unhook window with 2–3 survivors pumping, no big setup needed. And if the killer still hard tunnels and someone dies early, +25% repair and no regression/blocks kick in → even more “free gen time.”

    You get 10 seconds of extra gen progress, but in exchange, you go down to a 1v3 in one full chase and two half-chases.

    No one is taking that trade.

    Again, all you are talking about are things that are even between tunnelling and non-tunnelling, failing to construe any meaningful difference between the two.

    You can get as verbiose as you like, you can say 'macro' as often as you like, your argument still falls flat because the game simply doesn't work the way you have conjured it into your head.

    None of what you have mentioned makes tunnelling work less than non-tunnelling.

    Even in true newbie v. newbie, pressure is how people learn.

    Hey, remember how there's three other survivors that get no pressure?

    And how there's one survivor that doesn't get a normal chase?

    Tunnelling doesn't teach anyone anything. Normal play teaches them significantly more.

    KR = pure vibes.

    And what have you brought to the table if not exactly that?

    Everything you have spoken about has been presented without a single shred of supporting evidence, it's all just been whatever you feel like.

    A 3K after 5 completed gens counts the same as a 3K at 0 gens. First one feels like “I bled for it,” second is a steamroll. KR can’t tell the difference.

    But you don't have those numbers, do you?

    Because you're going off of, guess what?

    Pure vibes.

    If your only “evidence” is a blunt outcome number (KR), that’s not a rebuttal

    Then give better stats. Give better numbers. Stop whinging about your personal anecdotes and put something better on the table.

    Because so far, all you've presented is, guess what?

    Pure vibes.

    and killers liked seeing a stealth gamer

    That's a straight up lie. There were plenty of threads complaining about Distortion and demanding its nerf.

    A stealth teammate, though, forces the rest of the team into a 3v1

    Hey, stealth becomes bad if you're only and exclusively looking at the wrong application! What a surprise!

    This is like saying that doing gens is ALWAYS the wrong play because you can 3-gen yourself.

    I will reiterate again, because you keep switching tracks:

    There are situations in which stealth is the absolute correct play, and it still got removed. So why would tunnelling be spared the banhammer for being 'the correct play'?

    Don't pull up another situation that we are explicitly NOT talking about to skip around the topic, and answer the question.

    in Does DBD favor killers? Comment by Firellius

  • @oecrophy said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4002469#Comment_4002469

    Couldn't possibly be that killers had to learn and adapt, because killers never have to do that, right?

    Our killers weren’t bad. Sure, some — PTB + soft MMR — but plenty knew exactly what they were doing. The whole “killers are just bad, git gud” take is lazy.

    Key gens that aren't getting done if you're going benny hill on them. Besides, the most difficult to defend gens are hardly the 'key gens'. It's the most defensible gens that matter the most, as they swing the game the hardest in the survivors' favour if they get done.

    You’re talking about playing for a 3-gen from the start as a strat? That doesn’t work vs a remotely efficient team. Any decent squad will break your 3-gen if you try it while all four are alive. A good team won’t even let the map state become a 3-gen. Maybe that flies in your lobbies, but not against halfway experienced players.

    If it's getting them the win, how is it an unsmart play?

    "we just dont have to care about our macrogame." Outcome ≠ smart play. If the patch hands out freebies for 0 movement and 0 macro, that’s not “smart,” that’s carried.

    Same problem. You say the other three survivors need to force interaction, I point out that they can't, and that the only method that even approaches being able to do so requires a lot of skill to pull off.

    You ignore the former point, and swap arguments once again for the latter.

    You switch the points. now it is “L2P,” . My point stands: if MMR works, newbies face newbies. Those killers also don’t know what they’re doing—they misroute, chase the wrong targets, whiff swings. You’re not getting consistent “turbo tunneling” there. New killers are bad too. As I said above.

    When new players face other new players, both sides have room to develop their skills.

    It amuses me that people insist that the game is just progressively less killer-sided as you go up in MMR, because the stats show the opposite. Escape rates go down, kill rates go up, as you climb MMR.

    More kills at higher MMR doesn’t prove it’s more killer-sided — it shows selection effects. At the top you mostly see S-tier killers and sweat strats. That’s selection, not balance. Plus, plenty of good squads throw going for the 4-man, which inflates kill rate.

    and biggest thing: Kill rate is a blunt outcome metric. If you want to talk learning/skill, look at hook states per minute, gen progress per minute, resets, and map control.

    Falling escape rates can just reflect ceiling asymmetry: one very good killer scales better than a team with even one uncoordinated survivor. In high MMR, a single weak link vs a strong killer can sink the whole game. (and this happens a lot=

    And again: this is largely an MMR quality issue (mismatch), not proof of side imbalance.

    Oh, so you mean to say that the Distortion nerf did nothing to fix the issue?

    Almost like it was done because killers complained, and not because it was costing survivors their matches, huh?

    Ye, that’s what I’m saying. From my POV, Distortion was never strong; if anything it played into the killer’s hands and cost survivor teams games. Different lobbies, different experiences. You’ve got ~500 hours and <100 since 2021; I’m at ~15,000 across two accounts. Our lobbies are probably not comparable. I can only speak from what I’ve seen. (no flex, just context.) i cannot say much about distortion in new player lobbis, not part of my experience.

    So ye, killer in your lobbys have maybe different problems then the killer in mine. IDK.

    Our killers weren’t bad. Sure, some — PTB + soft MMR — but plenty knew exactly what they were doing. The whole “killers are just bad, git gud” take is lazy.

    But 'survivors are just bad, git gud' is perfectly fine?

    You’re talking about playing for a 3-gen from the start as a strat?

    No. I'm talking about how your argument is rubbish. No one mentioned 3-genning.

    "we just dont have to care about our macrogame." Outcome ≠ smart play. If the patch hands out freebies for 0 movement and 0 macro, that’s not “smart,” that’s carried.


    But when tunnelling does this, who cares, right?

    You switch the points. now it is “L2P,” . My point stands: if MMR works, newbies face newbies. Those killers also don’t know what they’re doing—they misroute, chase the wrong targets, whiff swings. You’re not getting consistent “turbo tunneling” there. New killers are bad too. As I said above.

    When new players face other new players, both sides have room to develop their skills.

    Yeah, that doesn't do anything to refute that tunnelling frustrates the learning process.

    More kills at higher MMR doesn’t prove it’s more killer-sided — it shows selection effects. At the top you mostly see S-tier killers and sweat strats. That’s selection, not balance.

    Except historically, pretty much ALL killers do better at high MMR than middle or lower. There were a few that had minor drops or stayed the same while the rest pushed higher kill rates, which suggests that it's not a selection effect at all: Higher MMR is just more killer-sided.

    and biggest thing: Kill rate is a blunt outcome metric.

    Which is still better than the absolute absence of any and all evidence that has been presented to support any claims about the game being survivor-sided.

    It's always anec-data being thrown up and tired, desperate shadows of arguments being regurgitated over and over again with a hell of a lot of dogmatic thinking behind it.

    And again: this is largely an MMR quality issue (mismatch), not proof of side imbalance.


    You have zero proof that it is.

    Ye, that’s what I’m saying.

    Do you have short term amnesia?

    You do realise that this plays exactly to my argument, right?

    Stealth was a valid, viable tool for survivors and got gutted anyway, because killers disliked it.

    So why is tunnelling being a 'valid, viable tool' for killers any reason for it to not get gutted?

    in Does DBD favor killers? Comment by Firellius

  • @oecrophy said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4002199#Comment_4002199

    Not anymore, is my point. On the PTB it was, but apparently it's fine if that gets axed to make the mistake free.

    y the ptb already showed it: almost every match was a 3–4 out, we only dropped two games. It clearly broke balance — and that was before we even had time to figure out how to max-abuse the new system.

    Unlike normal chases that… Benefit from being near key gens somehow?

    Oh, obviously? You’ve got main + key gens, strong windows, strong structures — that’s how the map is built.
    So: chase at key gens = better tiles for survivors → longer chases; but downs between key gens = killer value.
    Chase away from key gens = team value. That’s why you sometimes take the faster down as the price for the better zone (where tunneling isn’t worth it).

    And we already saw what anti-tunnel did on the ptb: a free pass for survivors to steamroll macro — rewarding unsmart play and handing out free wins.

    Perks that new players will not have.

    No game balances around day-one fresh installs. If there’s pain there, you fix it with onboarding/placement and MMR — not with global balance levers.

    Balance for the long-term population; let matchmaking protect true newbies.

    New killers have the same problem — no perks.
    Solve that with MMR/onboarding/starter builds and faster unlocks, not global balance nerfs. Balance for the broader population; protect true newbies via matchmaking.

    Except they can't; they don't control the killer. They can attempt a bodyblock (Good luck on figuring out how that whole tactic works as a newbie), but that is not any kind of guarantee for action, as you, specifically, should be keenly aware of!

    Same deal.

    You can’t balance around newbies — that’s how games die. Let matchmaking handle it.

    You do realise that you're arguing here that new players, in order to be able to learn the game, should play like high MMR swiffer teams, right?

    im not saying newbies should play like high-MMR SWF. i’m saying: teach basics, match basics. let MMR put them with people at their level.

    new killers scuff too — lose people, mispath tiles, don’t know how to deny fast vaults, sometimes chase themselves around a structure while the survivor’s already gone. the game only feels killersided early because a lot of new survivors ignore the team objective (gens). with working MMR, both sides learn on the same rung: survivors pick up macro, killers learn pathing/hooks, and the “it’s unfair” vibe fades.

    don’t warp core balance for day-1. onboard them, let MMR do its job.

    No, most survivors did not care or used it themselves. The argument that it was bad for the survivor team did not surface until AFTER killers had begun complaining about Distortion's mere existence, giving the whole thing an air of 'how do you do, fellow survivor players?'.

    This is compounded by the fact that the pain point of rat play did not rely on Distortion at all. Need I remind folks again: Lockers still exist.

    Also also, 'while I stay invisible' actually touches on another pain point about this whole discussion that a lot of people like to skate over:

    No idea — I almost never saw Distortion in my lobbies. And when I did, that player had a huge anti-fan club: “Thanks for throwing the game, Distortion guy!” Classic afterchat. And honestly, I get it: 1–2 stealth/Distortion enjoyers = quick, tasty win for the killer. Was true then, still true now.

    same when I’m on survivor and there’s a stealth enjoyer on my team — most of the time it’s a RIP match.

    You're trying to pin the blame for this on Distortion, but Distortion doesn't make you invisible or untargetable. It just blocks aura reading. To blame Distortion for tunnelling is to assume that baseline, the killer is able to read everyone's aura by default, which is testament to the massive power-creep that killer intel perks have gone through. The fact that this creates auto-piloting behaviours in the killer playerbase means that these aura reading perks absolutely share the blame for this. Without aura reading, Distortion would have no impact. But without Distortion, killers can absolutely still use aura reading to tunnel!

    This was always a disingenuous argument from the start, coined by frustrated killer players that just didn't want to ever have to deal with stealth.

    And they got their wish, despite stealth being a valid tool in the survivors' arsenal.

    So again, if stealth, a perfectly valid tool, could get ripped from the game, why can't tunnelling?

    It was rarely “Distortion alone,” it was the stealth gameplan behind it. If I don’t see anyone, I’m not playing bush simulator — I go where the reliable info is: hook, fresh unhook, injured, maybe a key-gen zone. That’s where I get pressure before I start checking random rocks/lockers.

    That’s not “aura autopilot,” that’s time economy. If you kill auras/tracks, you funnel my options — of course tunneling starts to feel like the default. Stealth as a tool (reset/rotations/endgame) is fine. But if it’s Plan A, you force hook pressure. Result ≠ “evil killers,” it’s just the math.

    And there’s still plenty of good stealth: break LoS, do short stealth cuts behind structures, little fakes/mindgames at tiles, walk-tech — all stuff that buys distance and seconds. That’s stealth as a tool, not “I’m sitting in bush 17.” One takes skill & gamesense; the other burns time and invites tunnel/proxy.

    i mean, play however you want — but for me, stealth lobbies were always the easiest wins. Even back in 2016–17. (where stealth was a bigger thing)

    y the ptb already showed it: almost every match was a 3–4 out, we only dropped two games. It clearly 

    broke balance— and that was before we even had time to figure out how to max-abuse the new system.

    Couldn't possibly be that killers had to learn and adapt, because killers never have to do that, right?

    Oh, obviously? You’ve got main + key gens, strong windows, strong structures — that’s how the map is built.

    So: chase at key gens= better tiles for survivors → longer chases; but downs between key gens = killer value.'

    Key gens that aren't getting done if you're going benny hill on them. Besides, the most difficult to defend gens are hardly the 'key gens'. It's the most defensible gens that matter the most, as they swing the game the hardest in the survivors' favour if they get done.

    And we already saw what anti-tunnel did on the ptb: a free pass for survivors to steamroll macro — rewarding unsmart play and handing out free wins.

    If it's getting them the win, how is it an unsmart play?

    No game balances around day-one fresh installs.

    Not what we're talking about.

    You claim that survivors just have to L2P, I retorted that new players are going to have hard time learning when they're getting turbo-tunnelled out of games. You then make the claim that tunnelling somehow doesn't impact the learning curve or opportunities, and you point to perks as part of the reason why.

    When I then point out that new players don't have these perks, you swap argument entirely to a matter of balance, which is not what we were discussing here.

    Same deal.

    You can’t balance around newbies — that’s how games die. Let matchmaking handle it.

    Same problem. You say the other three survivors need to force interaction, I point out that they can't, and that the only method that even approaches being able to do so requires a lot of skill to pull off.

    You ignore the former point, and swap arguments once again for the latter.

    im not saying newbies should play like high-MMR SWF. i’m saying: teach basics, match basics. let MMR put them with people at their level.

    Except you ARE saying newbies should play like high-MMR SWF. When I point out that tunnelling deprives three players of any interaction with the killer and thus any opportunity to learn that gameplay, you insisted that it was up to them to force interaction. How? By utilising the kinds of tactics that define high MMR swiffers.

    And while any monkey can tunnel, hook denial takes practice.

    the game only feels killersided early because a lot of new survivors ignore the team objective (gens).

    It amuses me that people insist that the game is just progressively less killer-sided as you go up in MMR, because the stats show the opposite. Escape rates go down, kill rates go up, as you climb MMR.

    onboard them

    And we were talking about the problem that tunnelling presents to onboarding, before you realised that you had no leg to stand on and swapped back to talking about balance.

    No idea — I almost never saw Distortion in my lobbies. And when I did, that player had a huge anti-fan club: “Thanks for throwing the game, Distortion guy!” Classic afterchat. And honestly, I get it: 

    1–2 stealth/Distortion enjoyers = quick, tasty win

     for the killer. Was true then, still true now.

    Oh, so you mean to say that the Distortion nerf did nothing to fix the issue?

    Almost like it was done because killers complained, and not because it was costing survivors their matches, huh?

    It was rarely “Distortion alone,” it was the stealth gameplan behind it.

    You're just arguing my point by now! If Distortion wasn't the issue for survivors, then its nerf cannot be attributed to them. It has to be attributed to the people that complained that Distortion was blocking their aura reading.

    If I don’t see anyone, I’m not playing bush simulator — I go where the reliable info is: hook, fresh unhook, injured, maybe a key-gen zone. That’s where I get pressure before I start checking random rocks/lockers.

    Notice how literally none of this is affected by Distortion!

    That’s not “aura autopilot,” that’s time economy. If you kill auras/tracks, you funnel my options — of course tunneling starts to feel like the default.

    Except you just listed four sources of reliable info, none of which are affected in any way by Distortion, and then you blame Distortion for tunnelling. Do you understand how disingenuous that comes across?

     If you kill auras/tracks, you funnel my options — of course tunneling starts to feel like the default. Stealth as a tool (reset/rotations/endgame) is fine. But if it’s Plan A, you force hook pressure. Result ≠ “evil killers,” it’s just the math.

    This argument just translates to 'if survivors do anything to try and win, they force me to tunnel'.

    And there’s still plenty of good stealth: break LoS, do short stealth cuts behind structures, little fakes/mindgames at tiles, walk-tech — all stuff that buys distance and seconds. That’s stealth as a tool, not “I’m sitting in bush 17.” One takes skill & gamesense; the other burns time and invites tunnel/proxy.

    None of this works against aura reading, first and foremost, and most of this isn't even stealth.

    But also, if you sit in bush 17 and you make the killer check up on a gen that you were working on, and they spend time checking bushes 1-16 before wandering off, you buy your team an incredible amount of time without eating up any resources.

    Explain to me how this is not 'the correct play'. Because if this can get removed, so can tunnelling.

    in Does DBD favor killers? Comment by Firellius

  • @runningguy said:

    to all those that complain about tunneling and slugging… do you have escape rates that reflect it being an issue? if it is as common and can cant be countered as what people say, this would reflect in your own escape rate. Bare in mind the devs aim for 40% escape rate.

    Except tunnelling and slugging are marked as gameplay issues. They are problems because they ruin the fun of the game.

    Genrushing is marked as a balance issue. It is marked as a problem because it supposedly cripples killer winrates.

    A high kill rate can be evidence of genrushing not being a problem.

    A high escape rate cannot be evidence of tunnelling being 'fun, actually'.

    in Honestly, I am done for now and I hope you are too Comment by Firellius

  • @Wolf65 said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4002249#Comment_4002249

    What is a killer "win" for you? What is it that they achieve "just fine"?

    I still believe gen time is still faster, as killers can chase. N8t regarding S Tier killer. I hate playing Nurse or Blight and I suck with Billys chainsaw.

    What is a killer "win" for you? What is it that they achieve "just fine"?

    3K+, the most common outcome of matches.

    in Honestly, I am done for now and I hope you are too Comment by Firellius

  • Nothing:

    Literally nothing:

    Like, actually, for real, nothing:

    Forum killers: "This is so unfair to killers, pls pity us, BHVR!"

    in I'm waiting for the phase 2 changes to be announced, before playing killer again Comment by Firellius

  • @Rulebreaker said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4002207#Comment_4002207

    Wouldn't it take years of dedicated coding to solve each and every specific possible problem scenario? Especially when more would pop up due to more content being added?

    I think it's fixable, but not via the crows. The game should just spawn a glyph every X minutes, and if the killer nabs it before the survivors do, he gets killer instinct on survivors for a bit.

    in Honestly, I am done for now and I hope you are too Comment by Firellius

  • @Wolf65 said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4002229#Comment_4002229

    Yes, it is the "win" for the survivor, but this needs a balance. With your logic tunneling is no issue, because chasing is 'the ability for killer to win the game'. Same logic? Are you happy with that?

    Except killers can win just fine without tunnelling, but survivors literally cannot win if gens take longer than kills.

    in Honestly, I am done for now and I hope you are too Comment by Firellius

  • @Wolf65 said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4001986#Comment_4001986

    No. Gen ruah is the missmatch between the time it needs to get gens done and the time it takes do get kills. Gen rush is not only about repair perks and tools. Every 2nd chance perk, that prolongs chases or give you rescue, like DS, are part of gen rush.

    You're essentially describing genrush as 'the ability for survivors to win the game'.

    That is not going to get 'fixed'.

    in Honestly, I am done for now and I hope you are too Comment by Firellius

  • @oecrophy said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4001510#Comment_4001510

    Except you're also arguing that this isn't actually a one-size-fits-all argument and also you're missing the point.

    With the suggested PTB changes, tunnelling could indeed become a costly mistake, but apparently it's not a problem to make that mistake free.

    So why is it a problem when 'survivor mistakes' are free, but not when killer mistakes are free?

    Because tunneling isn’t a mistake — it’s a reactive tool for killers, just like good bodyblocks aren’t a mistake for survivors. Both can be used poorly and backfire, but that’s not a fundamental error; it’s a situational misplay.

    I don't care about your essay on killer 'strategy' when your prior arguments have been both 'you can't win without it' AND 'you can't win with it'. What you're writing up here is a complete departure from your earlier argument. Which, again, feels like a disingenuous swerve.

    In the games where you “win without tunneling,” you often win because the option to tunnel is always on the table. At high MMR, good survivors assume you will hard tunnel if it’s worth it, so they change their macro:

    No heals under hook, they do off-path resets → time loss.

    Chases away from key gens into zones where tunneling is unprofitable → they’ll even take a faster down as the price for a good zone.

    From those zones, saves take longer paths → more time for the killer.

    Less gen-greed in critical areas → they won’t go down between two key gens, they “give” earlier.

    All of this happens because the killer can hard tunnel if the spot is good (and in high MMR that’s normal). Survivors must play smart to make tunneling unattractive — and that slows the match heavily in the killer’s favor, i.e., the time gain you need.

    Tunneling isn’t an “always do it” plan; it’s a pressure tool whose credible threat already reshapes survivor macro. Necessary as an option, weak as a sole gameplan.

    and most groups completely neglect their macro gameplay, stayed until the last second in important zones, play super aggressive on their side, push their objective until the last second and give downs in key areas, -> play at a crazy speed, and neglect their macro entirely. against these groups then the hard tunnel and a fast 3v1 is the way to go. you take back the speed you need. teams that on the other hand play to counter the tunnel, already slow down the round by themselves.

    trade macro for speed and the game answers with tunneling; respect macro and you remove its incentive.

    The credible threat of hard tunneling changes how people play; under that shadow, you’ll win games without ever using it.

    Most of the time, though, you still need the option—players love going hyper-aggressive and turbo-pace, and tunneling punishes those overextensions.

    Except it doesn't, because getting tunnelled is fundamentally different from a fresh chase, and that still leaves three others in the lurch.

    One health state down when the chase starts — plus a ton of perks that only come online post-unhook/while injured.
    The rest is just DBD/asym nature. The other three will have less direct interaction by default; if they want more, they can force it — crash the hook, bodyblock, trade, cover/ sabo/flash. The option’s there — lots of squads do exactly that.

    Except it's neither of those anymore because it got ripped out. There's so much intel going around that stealth is fundamentally a lost cause. It's no longer a tool because you're lighting up like a christmas tree every three seconds.

    My experience was the opposite: Most survivors didn’t like the old Distortion. Hook phases are resources — if the killer plays into them, it’s a resource that everyone gets found — otherwise tons of key gens were lost because the killer only ever spotted the people sitting there, never the Distortion users.
    And no, it’s not a “teamplay boost.” It’s more like: “I hate tunneling… so I’ll make sure the killer only ever sees the same teammate while I stay invisible.” 😂

    Here’s the kicker: people defend Distortion as “good design,” which ends up meaning the killer finds the 1–2 without Distortion — and then they complain about tunneling. That’s Schrödinger’s perk: both “anti-tunnel” and “please tunnel the others.” Omega paradox, omega funny.

    Schrödinger’s morality: rail against tunneling while defending the perks that trigger it — so killers (esp. low/mid MMR) who wouldn’t tunnel end up doing it anyway.

    It’s paradoxical: stealth + Distortion make even non-tunneling killers tunnel hard — especially in MMR where tunneling isn’t even needed. If you hide all game, where should killer get pressure before wasting time searching? From the hook. From the tunnel. Kinda funny to be anti-tunnel on one hand and pro-stealth on the other—pick a lane.

    I mean. .. Anti-tunnel in mind, Distortion in the loadout: result — “please tunnel the others.” Distortion go brrr.

    Because tunneling isn’t a mistake

    Not anymore, is my point. On the PTB it was, but apparently it's fine if that gets axed to make the mistake free.

    No heals under hook, they do off-path resets → time loss.

    Time loss that is all the more painful if the killer tunnels.

    Chases away from key gens into zones where tunneling is unprofitable → they’ll even take a faster down as the price for a good zone.

    Unlike normal chases that… Benefit from being near key gens somehow?

    From those zones, saves take longer paths → more time for the killer.

    Time that the killer also loses on the longer paths.

    Less gen-greed in critical areas → they won’t go down between two key gens, they “give” earlier.

    Tunnelling and non-tunnelling do not interact any differently with this.

    So this all, still, reads to me like obfuscation to try and keep two mutually exclusive positions in play. None of this is specifically going to punish tunnelling, as it works just as well against non-tunnelling.

    Tunnelling and regular chases are not sufficiently different to make these tactics punish one over the other.

    plus a ton of perks that only come online post-unhook/while injured.

    Perks that new players will not have.

    The other three will have less direct interaction by default; if they want more, they can force it

    Except they can't; they don't control the killer. They can attempt a bodyblock (Good luck on figuring out how that whole tactic works as a newbie), but that is not any kind of guarantee for action, as you, specifically, should be keenly aware of!

    lots of squads do exactly that.

    You do realise that you're arguing here that new players, in order to be able to learn the game, should play like high MMR swiffer teams, right?

    My experience was the opposite:

     Most survivors didn’t like the old Distortion. 

    Hook phases are resources — if the killer plays into them, it’s a resource that everyone gets found

     — 

    otherwise tons of key gens were lost because the killer only ever spotted the people sitting there, never the Distortion users. And no, it’s not a “teamplay boost.” It’s more like: “I hate tunneling… so I’ll make sure the killer only ever sees the same teammate while I stay invisible.”

    No, most survivors did not care or used it themselves. The argument that it was bad for the survivor team did not surface until AFTER killers had begun complaining about Distortion's mere existence, giving the whole thing an air of 'how do you do, fellow survivor players?'.

    This is compounded by the fact that the pain point of rat play did not rely on Distortion at all. Need I remind folks again: Lockers still exist.

    Also also, 'while I stay invisible' actually touches on another pain point about this whole discussion that a lot of people like to skate over:

    Schrödinger’s morality: rail against tunneling while defending the perks that trigger it

    You're trying to pin the blame for this on Distortion, but Distortion doesn't make you invisible or untargetable. It just blocks aura reading. To blame Distortion for tunnelling is to assume that baseline, the killer is able to read everyone's aura by default, which is testament to the massive power-creep that killer intel perks have gone through. The fact that this creates auto-piloting behaviours in the killer playerbase means that these aura reading perks absolutely share the blame for this. Without aura reading, Distortion would have no impact. But without Distortion, killers can absolutely still use aura reading to tunnel!

    This was always a disingenuous argument from the start, coined by frustrated killer players that just didn't want to ever have to deal with stealth.

    And they got their wish, despite stealth being a valid tool in the survivors' arsenal.

    So again, if stealth, a perfectly valid tool, could get ripped from the game, why can't tunnelling?

    in Does DBD favor killers? Comment by Firellius

  • For the longest time, I was confused about what David playing football had to do with 'we're gonna live forever'.

    in Do you also see perks "wrong"? Comment by Firellius

  • @Coffeecrashing said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000901#Comment_4000901

    If hard tunneling and bully SWFs are equivalent things, then why aren’t we having QoL changes to nerf bully SWFs?

    Why is the demands for game changes ALWAYS about how the game should be less frustrating for survivors, but NEVER about how the game should be less frustrating for killers?

    This may be a hot take, but I think it's because

    NO ONE COMPLAINS ABOUT BULLY SQUADS.

    How is this issue supposed to be on BHVR's radar when the only times this issue gets brought up is in response to survivor QoL?

    Seriously, there's eight threads about 'gens too fast' for every instance that someone, anywhere, goes 'what about bully squads then?'.

    BHVR listens to killers, but if the killers don't talk about it, they're not going to intuit what you have problems with. Go make a stink about bully squads if you want them addressed, don't just sit on it until you can use it as some 'us vs them' gotcha.

    EDIT: Actually, double rant!

    The reason the conversation is hardly ever about how the game should be less frustrating for killers is because when that topic gets brought up, it generally got resolved fairly quickly. When killers complained about not being able to hit-and-run, self-healing got nerfed. When killers complained about BNPs, they got nerfed. When killers complained about stealth, Distortion got axed.

    It's hard to keep a sustained conversation about your issues when your issues get fixed all the time.

    The reason we've been talking about survivor frustrations for 9 years is because, in those 9 years, nothing has been done to fix them.

    in Honestly, I am done for now and I hope you are too Comment by Firellius

  • @oecrophy said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4001491#Comment_4001491

    Because when a nerf is introduced to tunnelling to actually enforce this argument of yours, you balked at that, too. Apparently killer mistakes should stay free.

    You’re flipping it: the killer isn’t making a mistake — he’s reacting smart to survivor misplays. If you forbid the killer from applying pressure in those windows (tunnel/slug/camp in that context), survivor mistakes become free.

    A “tunnel that matters” usually comes after survivor errors: unsafe/early unhooks, bad chases, poor rotations, 0 gens up. That’s what makes tunneling lucrative — the killer isn’t failing; the survivors are. And that’s exactly what I reject: blanket nerfs that devalue punishing misplays. That kills skill expression and shifts the opportunity cost: survivors get to make mistakes and skate by because the killer is punished for correct play.

    On top of that, versus strong squads/SWFs, the killer role needs tunneling and slugging as tools — survivors are using all of theirs. You can’t strip that out just to make lower-MMR casual lobbies happy.

    That's even more interesting considering the mutually exclusive point that tunnelling is the ONLY way to win against efficient teams.

    Now, apparently, against efficient teams, it is the incorrect play!

    At this point, it is just plain lying. Tunnelling being at once the only way to win and a ticket to a loss against the same survivor team is just showing how disingenuous this argumentation is. Legit, the quality and value of tunnelling is just whatever you need it to be for the argument at hand.

    Want to make tunnelling into a survivor error? Just claim that it's bad against efficient teams. Want to make sure tunnelling does not get nerfed? Insist that it's the only way to win against efficient teams.

    You can't have both. Any attempts to do so are just plain disingenuous.

    Tunneling and slugging are part of playing into efficient, strong teams — legitimate, often-used tools. But if your pressure comes only from tunneling, you lose. You also need off-tunnel pressure.

    Situational judgment: do I start the tunnel now, or not?
    If tunneling gets broadly nerfed, every strong squad will know and play around it. A tunnel alone doesn’t win a match — without off-tunnel pressure (macro, tempo, map/gen control) you sink. You have to keep all of that before the unhook so you can even start a profitable tunnel. Strong teams can counter by forcing a good zone for them and a bad zone for you, making the tunnel inefficient. That takes a lot of survivor macro, is sometimes costly, and they’ll often trade for a faster down to secure a zone where tunneling isn’t worth it. If you introduce blanket anti-tunnel, that whole trade-off disappears — the cost survivors currently pay goes away.

    Strong teams force zones — zones where a tunnel often isn’t worth it, and proxy-camping isn’t worth it either.
    Often it’s a quick down as an investment: better to take an early (cheap) down if it makes the tunnel unprofitable and keeps team tempo.
    Add blanket “anti-tunnel,” and you remove the cost/benefit exchange: survivors no longer have to pay to secure that zone; macro decisions become risk-free.

    I'm not talking about getting stomped. I'm talking about getting tunnelled, camped and slugged out.

    Once a newbie drops into baby lobbies, they’ll verse bad killers. A bad killer tunneling will often still win there — because those lobbies don’t use time well, they’re basically gen-allergic and ignore objectives. But a bad tunneling killer is still bad: the tunneled player doesn’t insta-down; they get chase time. And if a killer tunnels in new-player lobbies, that killer is usually really, REALLY bad and will make a ton of mistakes. That gives the tunneled survivor huge reps to learn: resources/tiles, pathing, how to counter powers/perks. That’s literally how you learn the game.

    Ah, but then that is restricted to only what -you- want it to be. Because changes to what the game is 'built around' are rejected when it's not in favour of your personal view of what the game should be. Which makes an appeal to 'the correct play' a self-fulfilling prophecy. Essentially, 'I'm right because I'm right'.

    Take 'Take and hold chases' for example. I actually really enjoy stealth play, and in cases, that was certainly the correct play too. But that didn't matter when BHVR decided to release a cascade of intel perks and stripped away protections from said intel perks.

    So why would 'the correct play' matter now?

    Stealth is fine if you enjoy it. But BHVR shifted the incentives (more intel perks, fewer counters).

    Core issue with stealth: it eats the most valuable survivor resource — time. While you’re hiding, there’s usually no pressure: no gens, no resources burned, no map progress.
    Against good killers, stealth is a tool, not a gameplan. Use it to reset, rotate, or for endgame — but don’t expect wins. Without gen tempo and macro pressure, you lose the map and the team dies.

    When BHVR cut pallet counts, they pretty much had to clamp down on stealth too. Today it’s more important than ever that everyone contributes to the team objective. DBD isn’t like it used to be: the resource budget doesn’t let one or two players spend long stretches stealthing and still win. Back then 1–2 could carry; now it takes the whole team.


    So sure, play stealth if that’s your thing — just don’t expect to beat a good killer with it.

    You’re flipping it: the killer isn’t making a mistake

    Except you're also arguing that this isn't actually a one-size-fits-all argument and also you're missing the point.

    With the suggested PTB changes, tunnelling could indeed become a costly mistake, but apparently it's not a problem to make that mistake free.

    So why is it a problem when 'survivor mistakes' are free, but not when killer mistakes are free?

    Tunneling and slugging are part of playing into efficient, strong teams — legitimate, often-used tools. But if your pressure comes only from tunneling, you lose. You also need off-tunnel pressure.

    That's a real bunch of words to walk back from your initial claim that

    If chase quality, pathing, gen priority (skip mid/key), and unhook timing are on point, hard tunneling stops being a winning line—it bleeds tempo and throws the match. (for the killer)

    I don't care about your essay on killer 'strategy' when your prior arguments have been both 'you can't win without it' AND 'you can't win with it'. What you're writing up here is a complete departure from your earlier argument. Which, again, feels like a disingenuous swerve.

     That gives the tunneled survivor huge reps to learn: resources/tiles, pathing, how to counter powers/perks.

    Except it doesn't, because getting tunnelled is fundamentally different from a fresh chase, and that still leaves three others in the lurch.

    Stealth is fine if you enjoy it. But BHVR shifted the incentives (more intel perks, fewer counters).

    Yep, they did.

    And when they tried to do that with tunnelling, outrage.

    Against good killers, stealth is a tool, not a gameplan.

    Except it's neither of those anymore because it got ripped out. There's so much intel going around that stealth is fundamentally a lost cause. It's no longer a tool because you're lighting up like a christmas tree every three seconds.

    When BHVR cut pallet counts, they pretty much had to clamp down on stealth too. Today it’s more important than ever that everyone contributes to the team objective.

    That was absolutely -not- the reason for their anti-stealth march. And the lynchpin in that is the Distortion nerf. Keep in mind that any stealth-focused player can still avoid the killer by simply sitting in a locker for most of the game, in which case, they indeed do not contribute.

    Distortion specifically permits stealthy players to still benefit their team, and that is what got removed.

    Stealth itself got kicked out the game because killers didn't like it.

    So, again, why does 'the correct play' matter when BHVR can also opt to remove it from the game?

    in Does DBD favor killers? Comment by Firellius

  • @Wolf65 said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/456565/every-game-is-just-hook-trade-tunnel-the-game-is-falling-apart

    Hook, trade, tunnel is not possible. If I hook and trade, I do NOT "tunnel". That is not possible. I either trade, or tunnel. Calling trade-tunnel as tunnel is just bitching.

    And this is why they should stick to the 6 hook requirement and not lower it!

    in Every Game is Just Hook Trade & Tunnel – The Game is Falling Apart Comment by Firellius

  • @oecrophy said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4001428#Comment_4001428

    You'd have a point if the things being addressed weren't 100% enforceable by killers. Getting tunnelled is not a survivor mistake. Getting camped is not a survivor mistake. Getting slugged is not a survivor mistake.

    Tunneling/Camping/Slugging = pressure & adaptation on the killer side — not a survivor mistake. But a tunnel that actually matters usually comes after survivor-side errors: unsafe/early unhooks, bad chases, poor rotations, no gens up yet — that’s what makes the tunnel worth it.
    Bodyblocks, forcing a pallet down with two healthy on-site, denied pickups = coordinated survivor teamplay — legit on its own and doesn’t require killer mistakes. But this tools are there without killer mistakes.
    I mean. it’s a 4v1. Tools vs. tools. Adapt > blame. All of these are legitimate playstyles.

    It's disingenuous to use these as examples, because these haven't been touched. The only one you can argue is unsafe saves, but again, that's because killers could forcibly remove the option for an actual safe rescue. So long as that possibility is on the table, you can't call unsafe rescues 'survivor mistakes'.

    those are the levers that matter. If chase quality, pathing, gen priority (skip mid/key), and unhook timing are on point, hard tunneling stops being a winning line—it bleeds tempo and throws the match. (for the killer)

    This is both ignoring that, if these players were so obsessed with winning, they would already be playing top tiers only, and that there's more than enough room for compensatory buffs -IF- spike tactics are addressed and prove to dunk killrates too much.

    Yup. If I q into real strong squads consistently, my kill rate drops — which is fine: more skill expression on both sides instead of RNG stat-padding.
    Right now tons of games get tossed because randoms with no movement/cam control/gamesense drag the team — and they’re the loudest in afterchat/forums.
    We need a fgood working mmr, then we finally get honest stats instead of MM RNG.

    (and you finally get consistent teammates who can keep up with the killer you’re up against — the best trade-off at this point)

    Newbies currently don't get the basics because they get bonjoured out of matches with 5K BP. And it's not like any of the proposed changes take away any need for fundamentals, either.

    a few matches? Sure. They often start around mid-MMR (smurf protection), then their true MMR settles. After that they fall into super-new-player lobbies with equally inexperienced killers. Killers still tend to win there, but not to the “5k BP and back to lobby” degree — there’s actual room to learn.

    And dying fast in your first games isn’t the end of the world. if you new you want to learn the game, not "i want to win/escape directly" Nobody expects a day-one escape, and : they usually won’t even be the first chase. New players play more cautiously, while mid-MMR has plenty of aggro survivors who take the early chase instead. .. so they do get learning space.

    Or change the definition of correct play. If the 'correct play' is also the most cookie cutter, boring slop imaginable, it's not gonna help the game to balance more tightly towards that.

    Technically, if we're balancing towards 'correct play', we have to take hard tunnelling as the balance standard, which would mean crippling nerfs to killers or heavy buffs to survivors. And something tells me that'd piss off killers even more.

    The “correct play” is exactly what the game and its maps are built around: take and hold chases while your team gets gens done—and the killer’s job is to stop that. That’s the game. The game design is around this.

    If you deliberately play differently—chest/meme builds, over-aggressive plays that feed the killer, or ultra-passive styles that abandon the team objective—you’re opting out of the core concept. Totally fine, but don’t expect consistent wins. That choice comes with trade-offs.

    Tunneling/Camping/Slugging = pressure & adaptation on the killer side — not a survivor mistake. But a tunnel that actually matters usually comes after survivor-side errors: unsafe/early unhooks, bad chases, poor rotations, no gens up yet — that’s what makes the tunnel worth it.

    Ooh, that's an interesting point to try to make in conjunction with

    Mistakes become free.

    Because when a nerf is introduced to tunnelling to actually enforce this argument of yours, you balked at that, too. Apparently killer mistakes should stay free.

    those are the levers that matter. If chase quality, pathing, gen priority (skip mid/key), and unhook timing are on point, hard tunneling stops being a winning line—it bleeds tempo and throws the match. (for the killer)

    That's even more interesting considering the mutually exclusive point that tunnelling is the ONLY way to win against efficient teams.

    Now, apparently, against efficient teams, it is the incorrect play!

    At this point, it is just plain lying. Tunnelling being at once the only way to win and a ticket to a loss against the same survivor team is just showing how disingenuous this argumentation is. Legit, the quality and value of tunnelling is just whatever you need it to be for the argument at hand.

    Want to make tunnelling into a survivor error? Just claim that it's bad against efficient teams. Want to make sure tunnelling does not get nerfed? Insist that it's the only way to win against efficient teams.

    You can't have both. Any attempts to do so are just plain disingenuous.

    Killers still tend to win there, but not to the “5k BP and back to lobby” degree — there’s actual room to learn.

    I'm not talking about getting stomped. I'm talking about getting tunnelled, camped and slugged out.

    The “correct play” is exactly what the game and its maps are built around: take and hold chases while your team gets gens done—and the killer’s job is to stop that. That’s the game. The game design is around this.

    Ah, but then that is restricted to only what -you- want it to be. Because changes to what the game is 'built around' are rejected when it's not in favour of your personal view of what the game should be. Which makes an appeal to 'the correct play' a self-fulfilling prophecy. Essentially, 'I'm right because I'm right'.

    Take 'Take and hold chases' for example. I actually really enjoy stealth play, and in cases, that was certainly the correct play too. But that didn't matter when BHVR decided to release a cascade of intel perks and stripped away protections from said intel perks.

    So why would 'the correct play' matter now?

    If you deliberately play differently—chest/meme builds, over-aggressive plays that feed the killer, or ultra-passive styles that abandon the team objective—you’re opting out of the core concept. Totally fine, but don’t expect consistent wins. That choice comes with trade-offs.

    Absolutely not what anyone is talking about, stop obfuscating.

    in Does DBD favor killers? Comment by Firellius

  • @oecrophy said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4001112#Comment_4001112

    If you balance for casual mistakes, you kill the top end. The long timers won’t change their playstyle — they leave. SBMM then drags the next tier of "chill" killers up, now THEY face the same SWFs, get steamrolled, tilt, quit.

    Killers down → survivor queues up → SBMM widens buckets → even more mismatch. In the end, casuals eat it.

    Mistakes become free. Unsafe save? Whatever. On-path heal? Sure. Stack mid? Why not. You don’t learn → you get thrown into harder lobbies → first real check = brick wall.

    Solo “helpers” double-buff SWFs. The squads that are already strong get turbo. The gap grows, not shrinks.

    Then comes the counter-steer: anti-gen, anti-heal, anti-fun → low-variance meta. M1 killers disappear, Nurse/Blight stick around. gg. fun for everyone? OR ? :(

    Fewer killers ⇒ longer queues. SBMM widens buckets, coinflip lobbies (0k/4k), more tilt. Everyone loses.

    Newbies get frosting instead of fundamentals. You get matchmade up because the padding works. Protection drops → brick wall. Feels like “game unfair,” not “I’m missing basics” → quit.

    What i think we actually really really need (without nuking the ceiling):

    • Balance around correct play.
    • Fix SBMM
    • Onboarding & solo info: better bots, mini-tutorials, in-match pings/better HUD

    idk… maybe short-sighted from me, but I’d even be fine with a 5th perk for soloQ-only (the moment u q soloq) — locked to info/coord stuff (Kindred, Visionary, Deja Vu-lite; no gen speed) — just a small buff for solos/casuals that doesn’t touch the ceiling. I might be missing something, sure, but I’d have absolutely zero problem with it.

    Mistakes become free.

    You'd have a point if the things being addressed weren't 100% enforceable by killers. Getting tunnelled is not a survivor mistake. Getting camped is not a survivor mistake. Getting slugged is not a survivor mistake.

    Unsafe save? Whatever. On-path heal? Sure. Stack mid? Why not.

    It's disingenuous to use these as examples, because these haven't been touched. The only one you can argue is unsafe saves, but again, that's because killers could forcibly remove the option for an actual safe rescue. So long as that possibility is on the table, you can't call unsafe rescues 'survivor mistakes'.

    Then comes the counter-steer: anti-gen, anti-heal, anti-fun → low-variance meta. M1 killers disappear, Nurse/Blight stick around. gg. fun for everyone? OR ? :(

    This is both ignoring that, if these players were so obsessed with winning, they would already be playing top tiers only, and that there's more than enough room for compensatory buffs -IF- spike tactics are addressed and prove to dunk killrates too much.

    Newbies get frosting instead of fundamentals. You get matchmade up because the padding works. Protection drops → brick wall. Feels like “game unfair,” not “I’m missing basics” → quit.

    Newbies currently don't get the basics because they get bonjoured out of matches with 5K BP. And it's not like any of the proposed changes take away any need for fundamentals, either.

    Balance around correct play.

    Or change the definition of correct play. If the 'correct play' is also the most cookie cutter, boring slop imaginable, it's not gonna help the game to balance more tightly towards that.

    Technically, if we're balancing towards 'correct play', we have to take hard tunnelling as the balance standard, which would mean crippling nerfs to killers or heavy buffs to survivors. And something tells me that'd piss off killers even more.

    in Does DBD favor killers? Comment by Firellius

  • @Wolf65 said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000552#Comment_4000552

    I don't need to, because killer don't brag about how the other plays should be allowed to play.

    Survivors mindset: there is no gen rush, we just die our objective, it's the killers Lack of skill.

    But killer should only be allowed to kill the way we wabt it. Killer should be not allowed to chase after an an unhooked znless he gut fully healed. Killer should be allowed to hook the same survivor in a row. But in case he dowbs a recwbt hooked survivor,, that guy deserves a free unbreakable.

    You notice the difference? Survivor DEMAND rules hiw the killer should play. That's not healthy for a PVP game. If you want that, go ask for a PVE mode with killer bots.

    I don't need to, because killer don't brag about how the other plays should be allowed to play.

    They never do for long, because what they complain about gets ripped out of the game.

    See: Healing, Stealth, Boons

    in cant wait for the anti-tunnel Comment by Firellius

  • @oecrophy said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000807#Comment_4000807

    because a lot of survivor squads just throw. Part bad matchmaking, part emotions, part straight-up inefficient play. That’s why KR sits high. If you’re even a halfways stable player and your group plays cold-blooded, max-efficiency, Survivor is still the power role vs most killers on the roster.

    because a lot of 

    survivor squads just throw

    . Part bad matchmaking, part emotions, part straight-up inefficient play.

    But so do killers. You can't dismiss KRs because they don't show what you want them to.

    @oecrophy said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000844#Comment_4000844

    oufm, not hard to do the math:

    vs decent survivors it takes ~25–40s to find and down someone, ~8–12s to carry and hook, plus a few seconds to pick up/position—call it ~40–55s per hook state before you even spend time patrolling or kicking. five gens are 450 survivor-seconds. if roughly three people are on gens most of the time (one kites, no goofy resets), that’s about 150s to finish. in that window a killer doing ~40–55s per state gets maybe 3–4 hook states. that’s not two deaths unless you snowball—stacked hooks, bad saves, refusing a 1-for-3, etc. even if it averages more like 2.5 on gens (some rotations/saves), you’re at ~180s, which still lands around 3–4 hooks before the gens are done. on Nurse/Blight the timing compresses; on M1s it stretches. with clean survivor macro (spread spawns, take the trade, minimal resets), gen throughput beats hook throughput—which is why “decent, cold-blooded survivors” feel favored against most of the roster until they hand you snowball windows (which many squads do).

    and yup, that back-of-the-napkin ignores toolboxes, gen perks, and great skillchecks, yada yada —we’re using the raw 90s base. all of those only push gen speed further in survivors’ favor.

    oufm, not hard to do the math:

    We've been over this before: Stop trying to math this game out. It is far too complex to do so. You're accounting for a grand total of zero complexities and are even assuming the killer is AFK most of the time in your example.

    The reality is that no game works out according to the numbers.

    Remember that motte-and-bailey thing? You're back on your witch hunt for the immaculate survivor team.

    @UnicornMedal said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000815#Comment_4000815

    I don't know that I'd say Survivor is the power role, but where I'm willing to concede is that the the strongest nerf to Survivor overall is matchmaking. I would go as far as to wager that SWFs favor far less from comms than they do avoiding pubs. With the right synergy and skill level, you very well can negate a lot of the worst aspects of the game. Not completely, but enough to where the game is both engaging and not an instant steamroll. It's why you can strike gold even in solo.

    But matchmaking causes the game to be so random that those sorts of trials are rare. Without proper tools to give each individual Survivor a certain level of autonomy, the game is in a place to where they deal with incredibly frustrating gameplay with increasingly diminished returns. And at that point something has to give.

    I don't know that I'd say Survivor is the power role

    There is a spot where they are the power role, and that's with the process of hooking. That's where the killer has to respond to survivors instead of the other way around.

    I personally think that that should be looked at, but I think that might be, as the kids say, a hot take.

    in Does DBD favor killers? Comment by Firellius

  • @crogers271 said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000692#Comment_4000692

    I believe you mean this one

    Quote part

    We try to keep Killers near a 60% kill rate on average to keep matches relatively even and support the horror theme of the game, where the Killer is a force to be reckoned with and the survival is not guaranteed.

    Yeah, I think that's the one!

    in Does DBD favor killers? Comment by Firellius

  • Also, I don't know why my post disappeared.

    in Does DBD favor killers? Comment by Firellius

  • @I_Cant_Loop said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999995#Comment_3999995

    I think they’re referring to the 60% kill rate target. A lot of people believe this is “unfair” and “favors the killer side.” It’s subjective and everyone is going to have a different opinion about what is “fair”.

    BHVR’s job is to get the most number of people playing and in the right ratio to reduce queue times. They’re not going to please everyone and it’s just a reality that no matter what they do, some people will quit or threaten to quit.

    Like it or not, 60% kill rate seems to be the sweet spot for accomplishing the above objectives. I remember how long survivor queues were during peak hours back before killers were buffed in the 6.1 patch. Survivor queues are still longer than killer queues during these hours, but it’s much better than it used to be. Playing killer feels a lot less frustrating as well. And as someone who plays both sides, actually survivor a bit more than killer, the 60% target feels pretty fair to me.

    I’ve seen many opinions here that the target kill rate should be 50% instead of 60%. Just consider for a moment what that would mean. The current average kill rate for killers going against 4-man SWF at high MMR is still over 50%. So these people want the average game for average killers of average skill going against non-premade teams to be even more difficult than that. Doing so would likely mean a mass exodus of killer players across all levels.

    With that said, I’ll now happily open it up for downvotes 😉

    I think they’re referring to the 60% kill rate target. A lot of people believe this is “unfair” and “favors the killer side.” It’s subjective and everyone is going to have a different opinion about what is “fair”.

    To clarify, I think the post I'm thinking of was made by Peanits, and I distinctly remember it saying 'relatively balanced'.

    Which would imply BHVR is aware and accepts that it isn't properly balanced, in favour of the killer.

    in Does DBD favor killers? Comment by Firellius

  • @Madmillennial said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999768#Comment_3999768

    This. Its obviously an issue. But how to change it without punishment for the killer is the hard part. For health reasons theres needs to be balance so its a win win on both sides. We're heading in the right direction but I agree that those changes were a bit to harsh.

    Im glad its being looked at tho. This is good news

    But how to change it without punishment for the killer is the hard part.

    That is not going to work. Tunnelling has such a massively skewed effort/reward ratio that the only way to meaningfully disincentivise it without creating a new balance disaster is through punishment.

    I honestly really liked the idea of the repair speed boost, counterweighed with unique hook buffs. It'd at least threaten tunnelling's dominance without impacting non-tunnelers.

    in Tunnelling every game since DBD deemed it not a problem. Comment by Firellius

  • @oecrophy said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000016#Comment_4000016

    nah..

    the killer—should have a real chance to win vs any group if played well, independent of kill rates and without

     relying on major survivor mistakes. by “win” i mean a 4K. balance should let skill → 4Keven vs stacked comps. if the killer role needs throw-level survivor mistakes to win, that’s not agency.

    Independent of kill-rates. Good balance means both sides can win when played well — not ‘killers only beat top teams if they throw a major mistake

    That’s what a well-designed PvP game looks like to me.

    Good balance means both sides can win when played well

    They can't both have it. Demanding that a killer can -always- get a 4K must necessarily mean that survivors can get their 4Es denied no matter how they play.

    in Does DBD favor killers? Comment by Firellius

  • @sinkra said:

    The devs said tunneling is fine, so you can't blame players for playing to win.

    The devs also said 'we wanna introduce some changes to reduce tunnelling'.

    Community input is not a one-way street.

    in Tunnelling every game since DBD deemed it not a problem. Comment by Firellius

  • @OnryosTapeRentals said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999768#Comment_3999768

    They know this. People around here are just intentionally misconstruing the situation to play into a victim narrative.

    The developers were very clear that the systems will be returning after being tweaked. People are intentionally ignoring that because it doesn't fit their agenda. And it's painfully obvious because no one will comment on it further than issuing downvotes to anyone who points it out.

    The developers were very clear that the systems will be returning after being tweaked.

    Like the skull merchant rework, you mean?

    in Tunnelling every game since DBD deemed it not a problem. Comment by Firellius

  • @ReverseVelocity said:

    I don't think it should be made entirely impossible, as it kind of was on the PTB. That just inevitably opens up room for abuse, and makes lose/lose situations.

    Having such dire penalties just for killing someone within 6 hooks (which is entirely possible without tunnelling), or for hooking someone twice in a row (which just leads to people sitting on gens being de-facto invincible due to the repercussions of killing them for any reason) eliminates the tension entirely, as Survivors are left completely safe by these measures, and have no reason to fear the Killer no matter how reckless or stupid they might play.

    However, I do like the angle they were taking with the hook obscuring mechanics, and the Elusive effect. It doesn't make it completely impossible to tunnel per-se, but it does make it a giant pain to do so. It makes it far easier for an unhooked Survivor to get away, but does not put some kind of crazy shield around them.

    I think the gen penalties were well meaning, but overbearing. Having someone dead by 6 Hooks is entirely possible without hard tunnelling, and I think that needs to be reduced to 4-5 Hooks instead. The "last hooked" status also needs to be removed on a Conspicuous Action, to prevent Survivors from being able to have unconditional shielding on Death Hook.

    The system should punish people for trying to tunnel someone out off of a hook, not for hooking survivors twice in a row who have reset and gotten back into the game. Any protection that lets Survivors do objectives while being considered as "getting tunnelled" removes any kind of tension while active, as evidenced by DS back in the day.

    Having such dire penalties just for killing someone within 6 hooks (which is entirely possible without tunnelling)

    The penalty for a sub-6 kill was extremely mild, to the point where, if this were installed tomorrow without anyone mentioning it and no UI indicating it, I doubt anyone would even notice.

    The gen block was far more punishing.

    in Tension, Strategy, & Depth In Dead By Daylight Comment by Firellius

  • @09SHARKBOSS said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3998909#Comment_3998909

    casually sprinting triple blight speed into a wall for ten seconds

    Win a match on The Game without getting holed. Challenge level: Impossible.

    in Why a Doctor Who or SCP chapter wouldn't be easy to do Comment by Firellius

  • @Raccoon said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999476#Comment_3999476

    Being unable to hit the unhooker while having your chase interfered with by the unhooked who also had 30s of endurance/no collision to interfere with your hits/powers, drop pallets, block vault hits, etc was certainly something.

    Not if they're wasting gen time on getting themselves tunnelled out.

    in Why are people crashing out on these forums about the changes being delayed? Comment by Firellius

  • @Alice_pbg said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999191#Comment_3999191

    no. you picked wrong.

    cybermen is existential horror, and the alien is a r*pe analogy. both can be in the fog.

    no way the boneless and vashta nerada work in this game

    I mean that more in that Cybermen don't really fit DBD's thematic ensemble. They're very clean and clinical, and their whole shtick is removing emotion, the opposite of what the entity wants.

    Conversion is what makes Cybermen scary, not their combat prowess.

    The Boneless and Vashta Nerada would make for good stealth killers, I think. Tricky to do, but using the former's ability to navigate 2D space can make for a cool ability, and perhaps something could be done with the spacesuits in which the Vashta Nerada were introduced.

    in Why a Doctor Who or SCP chapter wouldn't be easy to do Comment by Firellius

  • @Raccoon said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999462#Comment_3999462

    Just a term for aggressive/offensive use.

    No personal qualms against it - you can't control or restrict someone's inputs, but it was a hot issue on the PTB.

    But aggressive use in itself is not a problem unless it negatively impacts the balance. Was there evidence of that?

    in Why are people crashing out on these forums about the changes being delayed? Comment by Firellius

  • @Raccoon said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999359#Comment_3999359

    You saw my videos and posts about weaponizing no collision?

    Is that not evidence?

    I'm further confused - most of the issues people had with the PTB were well documented.

    Weaponising, or using?

    in Why are people crashing out on these forums about the changes being delayed? Comment by Firellius

  • @LordGlint said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999379#Comment_3999379

    "Not ALL grass is green. Some people have dead grass. DOWNVOTE!!!"

    "#IrrigatedPrivilege"

    in Why are people crashing out on these forums about the changes being delayed? Comment by Firellius

  • @Raccoon said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999331#Comment_3999331

    "What is the overall impact when considering all the changes?"
    The problem in question only occurs on the PTB and is therefore measured as such.

    "Is it bad if no the collision impact can be used aggressively?"
    I don't personally mind, but it certainly invites tunneling, which doesn't seem to be a good fit for a mechanic meant to prevent tunneling and punishes killers that do not wish to tunnel.

    "Is BHVR's goal to completely remove no collision as an aggressive tool?"
    I believe the new Elusive status off hook was stated to be used as a tool to give people a chance to escape the killer, but again, I'm PERSONALLY in favor of it being used aggressively but I can see the issues it presents despite this.

    "What other solutions, besides a complete delay of the patch, could have been implemented?"
    Who knows? Apparently none, hence the delay - no one has a full scope of the PTB process or coding.

    "If you argue there is ample evidence, but don't specify, but also agree that some of the things people are using as evidence is wrong, then its not really a discussion."
    No. I'm stating that claims made WITHOUT EVIDENCE do not hold up and should be disregarded - I'm pretty sure this is clear from my wording.

    "If I say Killer is brokenly strong, and someone disagrees and argues about Trapper facing a SWF, and I argue about a comp Nurse hitting soloq, we're discussing very different examples but trying to generalize it to the same thing."
    I'm directly talking about a tool on the PTB (in my example) that can be used the same way 100% of the time. In this instance, it's body blocking with Elusive. Any player on the PTB can emulate this tactic with zero practice.

    "We're in an amorphous space where anything can be true. You can bounce back and forth with someone talking about people's reactions while meaning completely different things."
    Reality is true. People's opinions can adhere to this or not, but there is always evidence of what is real and factual whether it lines up with someone's personal take. Not really sure what you're getting at.

    The problem in question only occurs on the PTB and is therefore measured as such.

    I'm pretty sure @crogers271 was talking about the impact on the match, not the overall impact on DBD.

    in Why are people crashing out on these forums about the changes being delayed? Comment by Firellius

  • @Raccoon said:

    Have people really avoided Twitch/Reddit/YouTube/these very forums during the PTB?

    Sincerely asking as it's not very hard to find various instances of issues with the PTB.

    Burying your head in the sand and farming updoots doesn't distort reality, I'm afraid.

    Have people really avoided Twitch/Reddit/YouTube/these very forums during the PTB?

    If they're all of equal quality, you've got jack. The forums mostly consisted of stuff like

    'Survivors can just hard throw the match for a speed boost!'

    'Why don't killers get [thing]? They do? Well in that case, it's useless!'

    and

    'If I do everything wrong, am I supposed to just lose?'

    in Why are people crashing out on these forums about the changes being delayed? Comment by Firellius

  • @Alice_pbg said:

    your issue is picking the weeping angels. Cybermen, the master and Daleks are right there.

    Cybermen probably being the better choice for this game.

    and the doctor as the survivor, of course, with skins being the different doctors.

    honestly… it's a good idea. I would buy a couple skins… He can even keep the sonic and complain that everything is wood.

    I don't think the Cybermen, Daleks or Master are good picks.

    They're not really slasher villains. The Cybermen might be the closest fit, but their horror is existential.

    Buuuut, I do think you could make interesting killers out of the Boneless (invasive species from 2D space) and the Vashta Nerada. (Carnivorous shadows)

    in Why a Doctor Who or SCP chapter wouldn't be easy to do Comment by Firellius

  • @Raccoon said:

    There are literally hundreds of videos and thousands of posts demonstrating, with concrete evidence, why the current iteration was not good.

    This wall of evidence was so thick that BHVR made a statement a couple of days into the PTB indicating as much.

    Objectively, it should not be going live until these issues which, again, have hundreds of captured examples, are addressed.

    The foot stomping and whining from some users is simply wild, particularly when no effort is made to refute the very real evidence that exists.

    The system is going to be tweaked and brought back in a better form that presumably addresses its current issues - there is no need to be upset or descend into histrionics.

    Concrete evidence

    Wall of evidence

    Objectively

    Boy, I can tell this is going to be a nuanced and fair-minded take!

    in Why are people crashing out on these forums about the changes being delayed? Comment by Firellius
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