Firellius
Firellius
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- Firellius
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The weeping angel mechanic wouldn't work because the killer has to move insanely fast while not in view, to a speed that'd be impossible to control.
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@oecrophy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3998816#Comment_3998816
If tunnel at 5 gens is even a thing, your team already hard misplayed. Not just the first chase target (who had plenty of resources), but the whole squad. On a short first chase, before the unhook and before “tunnel” is even on the table, you should have at least 2 gens done. If you don’t, that’s macro failure.
Had a match once where the very first jump I made with Dredge nabbed a locker-grab. Guy was locking a locker, as is the supposed counterplay.
I don't think they could've done a gen.
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@Hannacia said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3998376#Comment_3998376
Point remains that you cannot punish one side that heavily for wanting to win. If you want to punish back to back tunneling then 3 hook stages is enough. 6 is too much. Killers got punished even while NOT tunneling with that and while having 1-2 gens remaining.
There were good ideas in this patch, but the penalties were not it. If they tweak some things im sure most killer mains and survivors mains wouldnt have any issues. Stopping one side from properly playing and having to do math is not it.
Also as a survivor main i would have found this extremely boring. I don't want to be handfed my wins.
There were good ideas in this patch, but the penalties were not it. If they tweak some things im sure most killer mains and survivors mains wouldnt have any issues. Stopping one side from properly playing and having to do math is not it.
Then none of the ideas were good. The incentives for non-tunnelling only made sense in conjunction with the pre-6 kill repair boost.
This patch keeps getting picked apart with its pieces taken in complete isolation. Lots of feedback has been incredibly myopic.
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@Wolf65 said:
"We barely managed to repair 3 gens"??
That's almost won! If your still a team of 4, it's about time to eliminate someone.what are you complain7ng about, at that moment?
That's not close. The last gens tend to go much slower because the killer has much less patrolspace.
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@I_Cant_Loop said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3997998#Comment_3997998
I just went on Nightlight and uploaded some matches from random endgame screenshots I found on Google. According to Nightlight, I now have a 100% escape rate.
Do you still really want to stand behind your position that this is a valid data source that we and the devs should use to draw conclusions about game balance with?You don't understand.
Your claim that a 60% killrate -will- produce a majority 2K scenarios is incorrect. Take any 60% KR dataset from Nightlight and you'll see that 60% KR can produce a minority 2K scenarios, which means your assertion otherwise is unfounded.
What makes you think 60% KR must result in majority 2Ks?
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3998030#Comment_3998030
As long as you dont repeat a hook, it shouldn't matter right?
Oh, right, I misunderstood it as hooking all survivors once.
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Dunno if that's a good idea. It'd incentivise having a dedicated hider, wouldn't it?
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@Alice_pbg said:
or… just play the game.
I'd love to, but the killer removed almost all gameplay.
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@I_Cant_Loop said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3997993#Comment_3997993
Nightlight is not even close to a reliable data source. It’s self-reporting and a very small sample size.
But unless you can prove the dataset contains impossible matches, it is a valid dataset that disproves your theory. Its existence proves your assertion that a 60% KR predominantly produces 2Ks baseless.
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@I_Cant_Loop said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3997989#Comment_3997989
Where is the data to show that 2ks are the least likely outcome? I’ve never seen BHVR post that kind of data before. Maybe I just missed it
Check Nightlight.
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@I_Cant_Loop said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3997947#Comment_3997947
I’m not trying to calculate a win rate. I understand that win rate is a totally different thing. I’m explaining what the 60% kill rate means about the average outcome of all games in terms of kills and escapes. If someone wants to point me to official BHVR data showing the “win rate” for each side, I’m happy to listen and draw different conclusions based on the data.
Doesn't change that it absolutely, pertinently -does not- work like that.
2Ks are, far and away, the least likely outcome, not the most likely.
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@I_Cant_Loop said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3997275#Comment_3997275
Please explain how the official stats show that every killer wins more than 50% of the time. Are you talking about the kill rate? Because that is not the same thing as win rate. The average kill rate is 60%, which means on average, the most common outcomes are 2-3K, with 2K (which is a draw for the killer) being more common than 3K. Draws are more common than wins for the average killer.
The average
killrate is 60%, which means on average, the most common outcomes are 2-3K, with 2K (which is a draw for the killer) being more common than 3KThis is NOT how you calculate winrate from killrate and has been debunked ad nauseam. It has to stop spreading.
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I actually appreciate BHVR's plan here. Instead of getting stuck in the weeds trying to pare down a system so it's only and exclusively restricted to a very specific thing (subsequently also requiring practically no effort to circumvent), they cast a wider net and gave compensatory buffs contingent on the behaviour they're aiming for. It creates a pretty decent gradient where the more you chase the buffs, the less the 'collateral' matters.
Only problems are the total genblock and Pig.
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@4thdslip said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3997528#Comment_3997528
Because sometimes you're not tunneling when it happens to you. It's a minute long timer post-unhook, which, accounting for the time it takes for someone to come in and unhook, is plenty of time to have won a chase and hooked someone else. Especially on snowball killers like Oni, Twins, and Plague.
If you're getting two downs within 60 seconds of a hook, that one extra second of stun ain't stopping you.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
This is increasingly difficult to do, especially as someone who has been around since the days of the "your fun is not my responsibility" forums meta.
There is a massive component to many of the discussions here where people lack any kind of empathy for anyone who isn't them. This isn't even necessarily even just "the other side" but also for players who either aren't as skilled, or more skilled, depending on context.
I think asking "why" is a valid question. Especially when BHVR is inconsistent with listening to feedback, or who they listen to, or whether they consider the abusable scenarios ahead of time.
This community largely has the perception that complaining loudly, early, and as often as possible is the way to get BHVR to "listen to feedback", and when they don't listen it just feels like you're watching the Devs be be manipulated.
We need to stop being blind to one side's issues and actually take into account all the pain points, what is broken or abusable, and find the best workaround if we want to see good changes, since BHVR clearly looks at overall complaints to make their decisions these days.
To put a fine point on it, and recent: they are taking this tactic with 9.2 ptb, absolutely. It's also the healthier way to approach things.
They specifically didn't do this in 9.0, with afk crows making it live in an unacceptable state despite and in contradiction to feedback.
The "go next" system in that same update, went live without testing, was pulled briefly, then pushed back in (quietly, with no patch notes) with no changes. Currently, on live, it punishes false positives for being hard tunneled. It's abusable, and people do.
Seemingly, the only difference here is volume. Which only reinforces the "loudest voices choose the game direction" idea even further. That is, objectively, a bad thing for the game at the bare minimum.
Seemingly, the only difference here is volume. Which only reinforces the "loudest voices choose the game direction" idea even further. That is, objectively, a bad thing for the game at the bare minimum.
Add to this that nothing stirs activity like negativity, creating a -heavy- negativity bias.
Even if the forums are inundated with dislikes towards certain changes, it doesn't mean the community as a whole reflects that.
So this 'loud voices direct the game' issue innately pushes towards status quo, and an upheaval like this patch will never fly.
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Not really up to us. Dissidents are always labeled as mains of the other side.
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@drag27 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3995800#Comment_3995800
well they're not required, you're not being forced to use them. They are there to help you in whatever you're struggling in. Simply put: If you're struggling with tunneling use anti-tunnel perks, if you refuse to then you cant complain about getting tunneled when you do.
theres nothing crazy about it. Killer cant tunnel you if you never go down in the first place. whats really crazy is that you feel entitled to not doing any problem-solving or higher thinking when faced with a problem or just that the game should give you a dozen basekits
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3995900#Comment_3995900
well, we dont. most of us KM's dont que up for a trial and go: "alright, cant wait to ruin survivors fun hehehe", we que up intending to give it our best. If you go and think "the killer ruined my fun by tunneling me", thats on you guys not us.
we're brought to this patch because survivor whined too much after getting outplayed and lost.
we're brought to this patch because survivor whined too much after getting outplayed and lost.
If survivors cared about losing, there'd be a hell of a lot more pushback against BHVR openly admitting to balancing in favour of the killer.
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@CompetitifDBD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3997237#Comment_3997237
Its factual information that survivor is better, and its in the stats too for the most part. BHVR caters far too much to bad survivor players, and these changes would've been the mother load of unbalance. I have a 75%+ escape rate, thats not supposed to be happening according to BHVR's target killrate.
Its factual information that survivor is better, and its in the stats too for the most part.
It isn't. Stats range from survivors being very slightly underpowered (High MMR 4-man) to being dramatically underpowered (High MMR solo).
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Inb4 revised notes scrap both the regression block and repair speed boost and just give killers a bunch of freebies.
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@BOFH said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3996419#Comment_3996419
It's 10 additional seconds of gen time per survivor on a gen.
Since the biggest issue usually occurs with the first chase and hook, it works out to:
3 survivors on gens x 10 seconds of additional time-on-gen per survivor = 30 seconds total additional progress
This does compound over the course of the match, of course, since there are two exploitable hook stages per survivor and multiple survivors to get hooked.
This leads to the common use of tunneling to make it a 3v1 ASAP, as well as highlights the problem with "eye for an eye" types of balance patches. Specifically, it means that one side lost an eye ages ago leading to an eye being taken from both sides now.
Apparently people don't understand what "balance" means and complain about a "one-sided" change without realizing that the change is one-sided at this particular point in time precisely because it was already out-of-balance in the other direction already.
Since the biggest issue usually occurs with the first chase and hook, it works out to:
Again, this requires the killer to stand around like a dead fish and let survivors do their gens. Otherwise, you're not going to have three on gens.
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@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3996842#Comment_3996842
Lets be real. "High mmr" in dbd is a joke. You can NOT have an mmr system that's soft capped and try to use said stats to make arguments. There's a reason why I use the term "efficient" or "good" survivors because good survivors is what I care about with changes like these.
And you'd rather maintain control over what constitutes a 'good' survivor so you can instantly dismiss any survivor team that loses any match as 'bad' and therefor not representative.
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@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3996827#Comment_3996827
Except… survivors didn't exactly need buffs. This update just goes to balance around the average person trying dbd for the first time and it shows.
Didn't they? High MMR 4-man swiffers were the only ones getting close to 50% escape rate, every other category was statistically very underpowered.
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@SpitefulHateful said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3996554#Comment_3996554
I speak only for myself, but I don't recall ever complaining about genrushing specifically.
Yes, gen repair speeds and nerfed regression are annoying, but it was adressable by switching to aura reading perks and perks that help Killer complete every action faster, in addition to using different strategies. I don't blame Survivors for fixing gens fast, I blame them for toxicity and I blame BHVR for leaving fewer and fewer options for low-mobility Killers.
I spoke specifically from the perspective on in-game BMing and abusing of certain features that is addressed for the one side and completely ignored for the other side because "you're the power role, you can handle it". Therefore, I get it why people stressed about having to go though more pressure in a game where the community itself pressures them to either win or be bullied.
I spoke specifically from the perspective on in-game BMing and abusing of certain features that is addressed for the one side and completely ignored for the other side because "you're the power role, you can handle it".
That has never been the argument. The complaint about these things making the game harder for killers has always been answered with 'Killer is the role with the far higher success rate, it can survive a knock'.
The term 'power role' has pretty much exclusively been used to argue in favour of the killer being overpowered or oppressive, not by people talking arguing for survivor buffs.
Also, the 'issues being ignored' problem stems in large part from a community that fails to communicate its issues to the developers. Like I said, the issue of bully squads is a valid concern to have, but it's practically ONLY brought up to try and stop fixes for survivor issues from being put through.
I am 100% in favour of nerfs to hook denial, but I also feel I'm practically the only one!
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@SpitefulHateful said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3996366#Comment_3996366
Because the Killer is the "power role" those who main them feel entitled to absolute domination. They are not actually a supernatural killer, they're just a dude in a gaming chair playing with dudes in other gaming chairs.
Here is the contradiction: you say that the Killer is the power role, so it must automatically suck it up and endure everything thrown at them, while acknowledging that they're just people playing with other people. So, just like other people, they become frustrated and lose enjoyment in the game — when they lose and when they are punished both by the game and the winners. This very forum already had a case where the user's friend tried to get into DbD as a Killer, only to encounter a sweat squad that bullied her relentlessly, mocked her in the endgame chat, telling her to uninstall and calling her a total failure. You think she'd want to go back to this game afterwards? For what? For more abuse? What is her incentive? Is she supposed to have fun with those people?
You can still kill, be scary, torment them
The game doesn't give you points for tormenting or being scary. You get most amount of points and grow your rank for hooks and kills.
Survivors still have plenty of ways to lose, they're just hard nerfing the cheesiest and least skillful method of doing that.
There is not such thing as skill in gaming. It's not a sport, it's not a craft, it's not a science, it's enterainment that doesn't provide people with any skills or talents they will use in real life. To chastise people that they aren't winning "skillfully" while simultaneously nurturing the culture of winning and dehumanization of those who lose matches is ridiculous.
this community is very toxic. I blame it on the wave of hyper-competitive players. Everything is about what is meta, everything has to be an "S-tier", and have their entire emotional well-being placed on winning a match
And this community isn't going to get better, so it's up to devs to fix that. However, they continue to equip one side with more toxicity, while shrugging the concerns of the other side and basically replying with "do better" or "it's your fault for feeling bad when a squad makes your game miserable"
This very forum already had a case where the user's friend tried to get into DbD as a Killer, only to encounter a sweat squad that bullied her relentlessly, mocked her in the endgame chat, telling her to uninstall and calling her a total failure. You think she'd want to go back to this game afterwards? For what? For more abuse? What is her incentive? Is she supposed to have fun with those people?
This would be such a valid point if it ever got brought up outside the context of 'survivors shouldn't get their issues addressed'.
Legit, why's there so many topics about a nebulous 'genrushing' when this is on the table?
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@Massquwatt said:
I'm not against the anti-tunnelling measures but what survivors get for free when taken off the hook is honestly a bit excessive. Because once you're off a hook you get:
A 10 second delayed notification to the killer
30 seconds of the following:
-Haste
-Endurance
-No scratch marks
-No blood pools
-No pain noises
-No killer instinct
-Seeing the killer's aura within 32 meters (Not sure if this is affected by open handed yet)
And if somebody else is using borrowed time, those bonuses go up to 42 seconds. That's nearly three quarters of a whole minute. Like you could just keep the delayed unhooking notification, the 30 seconds of endurance and haste and that'd be more than enough to discourage tunneling. I do think there's such a thing as putting too much into something and it almost feels like the game's just hand holding you?Like you could just keep the delayed unhooking notification, the 30 seconds of endurance and haste and that'd be more than enough to discourage tunneling.
I doubt it. The unhooked target is still the obvious must-pick, so why wouldn't the killer go for them?
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@BOFH said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3996168#Comment_3996168
I actually kind of agree with your point, but perhaps in a bit of a weird way:
Tunneling and slugging was the "nuclear option" that killers pulled out in response to sweaty SWF stacks, but once released on the DBD playerbase, it became a genie that couldn't be put back into its bottle once people realized how effective it was.
In true "gamers will optimize the fun out of everything they can"-fashion, things have just escalated constantly back and forth between survivors and killers, and that has caused us to reach the point we are at.
One other note about the hook stage vs gen time changes, if I'm remembering my patch history correctly, the hook stages were changed at the exact same time the gen repair extension happened, or within a week or two after at the worst.
In other words, killers got a "buff" and then it was immediately taken away in the name of "an eye for an eye" rather than looking at whether it was actually balanced or not in the first place.
As it turns out, 10 seconds extra of hook time on the first hook of the game translates into around 30 seconds of gen time, which completely negates (and then some!) any benefit the killer received from extending the generator repair time.
On a more general note, BHVR's constant "balancing via pick rate spreadsheet" has resulted in making the tactics and strategy metagame escalation happen exponentially more rapidly instead of mitigating or even possibly reversing it when it was still a lower-stakes issue, precisely because killers were picking perks that filled gaps in the game systems, while survivors had the ability to pick basically whatever perks they wanted for whatever role they wanted to fill in that particular match.
This meant that the killer perks that were the most useful at filling gaps got nerfed into the ground, leaving only in-game strategy and tactics left to fill the gap, leading to further proliferation of tunneling, slugging, and camping as a means to achieve victory.
Now killers are getting some basekit stuff (but only if they have the mobility to be able to use it, thus the complaints about only Nurse, Blight, Kaneki, etc. being viable), but then they are also getting their entire set of perks currently used to fill gaps in the game systems completely gutted or reworked to not be useful anymore.
As for the "refusal to adapt" thing, the entire situation is coming about because of the survivors' refusal to adapt to the ages-old strategy of tunneling and/or slugging with perks that already exist, which could have changed the meta into a more healthy spot if they only chose to use those perks, while killers have been compelled to adapt to the very real changes that BHVR has implemented to spoon-feed survivors.
Basically what I'm saying is that Killers have been using scissors because BHVR banned them from using paper, while survivors have been continuously using paper while refusing to use rock despite rock's existence being pointed out to them repeatedly, because they don't find rock "fun" for some arbitrary reason.
The entire time BHVR has been buffing paper and nerfing scissors because that's what the spreadsheet said had a high pick rate with extreme effectiveness in favor of scissors, which ironically resulted in killers leaning into scissors even harder because it was still the only thing they had left despite BHVR's best efforts.
If the survivors had just swallowed their pride and used rock for a while, then killers might have found a way to "counter" them by using rock as well, but at least that would have resulted in an evenly balanced game state as opposed to the tunnel-slug-camp fest the game became.
Additionally, if the survivors had picked rock, prompting killers to pick rock, perhaps over time BHVR would have made balance change decisions other than "nerf scissors, buff paper" for the last few years.
This patch will simply be the straw that broke the camel's back, and I genuinely hope that the killer player pool evaporates within a week of the patch going live on the main client and everyone realizing how awful it feels to play killer.
This last part is complete tinfoil hattery combined with "There's no way they're that lost in the spreadsheet sauce… right?" but I'm afraid to believe that someone at BHVR went "Survivor is picked 80% of the time in games and therefore needs to have gameplay catered to them because they make up 80% of all profits for BHVR," and that resulted in the changes we are seeing.
One other note about the hook stage vs gen time changes, if I'm remembering my patch history correctly, the hook stages were changed at the exact same time the gen repair extension happened, or within a week or two after at the worst.
You are misremembering very badly. Gens got their charge increase in 6.1, hook timers got updated in 8.2, two whole -years- later, not weeks.
As it turns out, 10 seconds extra of hook time on the first hook of the game translates into around 30 seconds of gen time, which completely negates (and then some!) any benefit the killer received from extending the generator repair time.
Except A) It's only thirty seconds if the killer puts literally zero pressure on anyone else, B) It's still in the survivors' best interests to unhook as soon as possible, as an incapacitated survivor reduces gen efficiency. and C) It was 50 seconds of extra gen time total, so even a total misplay wouldn't fully offset the gen increase, at least in one hook.
It's kind of what @ratcoffee mentioned: Any value, even if perceived in such a myopic perspective that it disregards all drawbacks, is labelled as 'unfair'.
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@drag27 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3995785#Comment_3995785
except your fun is not the Killer's job. you're responsible for your own fun. there are anti-tunnel/slug perks, use them, otherwise if you refuse and get tunneled or slugged thats your own fault. Also the killer cant tunnel or slug you if you never go down
except your fun is not the Killer's job.
Doesn't mean killers should go out of their way to ruin it.
And if you think 'but it's just the most efficient way to play', that brings us to this patch.
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I don't know about this. The first two or so gens don't really matter much, while the last two do. So even if you get an even distribution of charges, I think the outcome would heavily favour the survivors.
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@AbsolutGrndZer0 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3995541#Comment_3995541
Minimum skill or not, it's still punishing the killer for not ignoring them when survivors do something stupid. NO GAME SHOULD DO THIS. Otz's ability to still win has no bearing on this.
As I and others have said before. Most of this I am okay with. It's the PUNISHMENT parts at the end that I have a problem with, especially the no more regression or blocking part.
Even the 25% bonus to generator repair speed I could deal with (though that number might be a bit high) but again, it's the punishment for hooking the same survivor back to back rather than just letting them keep working on a generator while you go look for someone else. Yeah, you can slug them but aren't we supposed to not do that anymore? Make up your mind!The blocked regression needs close examination, but the 25% repair boost is not a punishment, it's a reduced reward. You're still coming out miles ahead with that kill, just one mile less.
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@AbsolutGrndZer0 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3995319#Comment_3995319
Yes, because I said that. Cab every player on the game in theory play any game on an E-Sports Championship level. Sure, and we might get through a patch without a Pig Nerf and all her bugs fixed But most of us are not out there winning hundreds of thousands of dollars a year playing video games and no game should expect us to play on that level and there are Pig bugs (sorry, features) that have been in the game since 2021, not to mention new ones.
You're not getting it. It's not proof that that's the minimum skill required to pull it off.
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@CleanseThis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3995427#Comment_3995427
Yes it very much is. You never tunnel? so I'm guessing you only play survivor and if im wrong and you do play killer what's your mindset when you load into a match? also, do you have a problem with posting your KR with your most used killer?
The core loop has been the same since this games inception until possibly now. Granted there have been lots of changes since then but the AGENCY has always been there.
You never tunnel? so I'm guessing you only play survivor
What's with this stuff? Everyone that's outraged about this patch instantly accuses any dissidents of being survivor mains. It's cult type stuff, stop it!
The vast majority of players, myself included, play both roles. I just don't go in with intent to sweat and have no need for a guaranteed 4k every match. I'm not chasing 'T O P M M R' or winstreaks or clout or anything. I'm fine with a 3k or a 2k, I'm good with a 0k as long as I got my hooks in. If the survivors play well, I don't deserve to win by unga-bunga tunnelling and just bot-coursing my way after every unhook notification. I prefer a much more dynamic game than that.
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@CleanseThis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3994003#Comment_3994003
Calling this a nerf is an understatement. This is a overhaul of the core game loop to say the least.
Is it? Because I never tunnelled. How did I miss the 'core gameplay loop'?
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@SpitefulHateful said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3995273#Comment_3995273
Because playing DbD is literally Otz's job? Do you really expect anyone else to grind their lives away?
Don't people constantly tell survivors to 'git gud' too?
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@AbsolutGrndZer0 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3995273#Comment_3995273
Because no game should be balanced around what the best players of the game are able to pull off. If you don't understand this, then… I don't know what to say that won't get me banned.
But it's a huge leap to assume that, because Otz can do it, it's proven that ONLY Otz can do it.
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@AbsolutGrndZer0 said:
To all those saying "oh but he still won the game":
OF COURSE HE DID, HE IS OTZDARVA. He's one of the best players in the game.
They could make it so as soon as the killer gets 4 hooks in any combination, gen regression or blocking is no longer possible and Otzdarva would still win the majority of his games. But that would not be the experience for the majority of the playerbase.But this video doesn't prove jack, though, does it?
Besides, if Otz can do it, why couldn't anyone else?
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@Coffeecrashing said:
The comparison is that if too much of tunneling is removed from DBD, it doesn't really have a major component of horror anymore. Horror games are supposed to have tension… the threat that killers are dangerous throughout the entire game, and the threat that someone might be removed from the game early.
If too much of tunneling is actually removed from DBD, then survivors will go large periods of time not actually being worried about the killer. And the killer role won't actually feel like it's killing for large portions of the game.
That is what killed VHS, because the killer role didn't feel like a killer role. Most asymmetrical games like this, die when the killer population is way too low to sustain the queues.
If too much of tunneling is actually removed from DBD, then survivors will go large periods of time not actually being worried about the killer. And the killer role won't actually feel like it's killing for large portions of the game.
Counterargument: All pressure all the time makes it wear thin. Tunnelling was never scary, it was frustrating and annoying more than true 'horror'.
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It's partial basekitting, which is somewhat clunky, but I can imagine that letting them stack unhindered could become oppressive. Not sure, can't access PTB from vacation.
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@CleanseThis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3993406#Comment_3993406
Your agency is very much hindered. If survivors make really bad misplays like being to altruistic and I capitalize on that i'm left with bad options that weren't there before said patch.
Just because something's nerfed doesn't inherently mean it's a bad option.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3993978#Comment_3993978
We are very close to Killer Mains asking for Exit Gates to be removed.
Inb4 'why do survivors get 2 exit gates?'
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@Aven_Fallen said:
Not really. It is still beneficial to turn the game into a 3v1, you just dont get to use your Regression afterwards. But you still are in a situation where technically the Gen progress should be heavily slowed down, since when you have one person on the hook, one in chase and one going for the Unhook, you have 0 people on Gens.
Like, it is not like alternative Kills like Sadakos Condemned Kills or Pigs Traps dont provide any advantage to you anymore. And if those Killers have a problem with the new changes, the Devs will most likely buff them.
IMO it would also be fine to make it that only if people die on Hooks that the penalty for Killers work, but if they get killed by an alternative method, there is no penalty. Even tho this would require to remove Moris.
Not really. It is still beneficial to turn the game into a 3v1, you just dont get to use your Regression afterwards.
That one's separate, that's only if the survivor killed was the last one to be hooked. So if you never hooked them, you'd keep your regression anyway. Or if you hooked someone else first.
You'd only contend with the repair speed boost, and I doubt that'll be high enough to offset a dead survivor.
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@Shinkiro said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3993928#Comment_3993928
And the unique hooks are good (even if we know the rewards probably arent gonna be good enough to matter, especially to most of the roster), but blanket applying a penalty for situations that ARE NOT direct tunneling is stripping way too much agency and strategy from killers general gameplay. Survivors shouldnt be able to make terrible plays that result in them getting downed again and not get punished for it/killers punished for it.
Again back to back hooking isnt necessarily tunneling and exceptions CAN and SHOULD be made to not neuter killer gameplay. It would make more sense for a reasonable timer after unhook where the punishment effects expire and/or if they take a conspicuous action or that action massively shortens the timer. (Visible on the killer hud)
If they are in a position to actively participate in objectives they are no longer vulnerable and dont need protections and killers needn't be punished for taking the opportunity to go after them instead of being forced to go after better loopers and survivors in much stronger positions to waste more of their time. Survivors could make the choice and have the agency between making objective progress while more vulnerable and massively reducing the protections or take the time to reset properly and have a longer timer for example.
You just can't take a game that's about time management and expect/force one side to play inefficiently while the other doesn't and reward them to being in bad positions.
Survivors should be the ones encouraged into spreading the team resources, not the killer being aggressively forced into it and having their gameplay mangled because they wont work together. Most of the time the other survivors just don't help and let it happen (from both a killer and a solo q survivor POV here), and that isn't the killers fault. Rewards for taking chase from a recently unhooked player for survivor could be a thing (like a chunky BP event not basekit mechanics as spreading hooks is a good play anyway).
Survivors shouldnt be able to make terrible plays that result in them getting downed again and not get punished for it/killers punished for it.
What's the repair boost percentage, and how much offsets a dead survivor?
Everyone talking about the killer getting 'punished', when it's very likely that the killer still benefits from these situations, even if it's not as much as the current insta-wins.
Winning isn't 'punishment'.
Again back to back hooking isnt necessarily tunneling and exceptions
CANandSHOULDbe made to not neuter killer gameplay. It would make more sense for a reasonable timer after unhook where the punishment effects expire and/or if they take a conspicuous action or that action massively shortens the timer.(Visible on the killer hud)A system designed to disincentivize killers from tunnelling should not go out of its way to minimise the effort required to circumvent it.
You just can't take a game that's about time management and expect/force one side to play inefficiently while the other doesn't and reward them to being in bad positions.
Likewise, you can't toss a blanket triple buff on the side that's already overpowered, but they're doing that here, too.
Also, again, a dead survivor is not a 'reward'!
Survivors should be the ones encouraged into spreading the team resources
Except killers can tunnel, whether survivors 'spread their resources' or not. And since there's plenty of killers that will tunnel out of spite, and yet more that do it because it nets them much easier wins, there's no solution other than to nerf it.
Most of the time the other survivors just don't help and let it happen (from both a killer and a solo q survivor POV here), and that isn't the killers fault.
This is some 'superman didn't stop the aliens from killing my mom, therefor superman killed my mom' type reasoning.
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@CleanseThis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3993960#Comment_3993960
A timely completed gen is one step closer to escaping without worry.
You have identified the win condition for survivors. Unfortunately, they do need one of those, or they'd have nothing to play for.
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@XDgamer018 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3993874#Comment_3993874
Neither does genrushing...
Ah, yes, survivors doing a gen, absolutely unfair.
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@Shinkiro said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3993529#Comment_3993529
Except the changes punish proper play outside of that so its also not balance. There's countless times ive hooked the same survivor back to back to a multitude of reasons that arent tunneling, because of bad choices they made, attempts to get in my face to get perk value, randomly found them during another chase and took the opportunity for an easier down (bad play, not healing) etc etc etc.
Very little about the "anti-tunnel" changes are actually anti-tunnel changes. 6 hooks isnt tunneling, back to back hook isnt tunneling because it happens for tons of reasons that are legitimate outside of being chased off the hook.
These changes are blatantly unfair, biased, unbalanced, given little thought to the way the game is actually played by competent players and too widely applicable to a multitude of situations that are legitimate gameplay yet punish a killer for it because of bad survivor gameplay.
A 3 hook punishment (4+ hooks isnt tunneling, team should be spreading hooks themselves) and the elusive basekit part are more than enough. 90s pick up while slugged is again, more than enough(should reset each time imo), being able to move and recover is too much. The point is your team should come and pick you up before the 90s to take off pressure.
This is mostly just a hand holding patch for bad survivors, not a fair balance patch.
6 hooks isnt tunneling, back to back hook isnt tunneling because it happens for tons of reasons that are legitimate outside of being chased off the hook
That's why part of the changes are killer buffs for unique hooking.
If we had a system that'd make every exception you want, it'd need to permit back-to-back hooking and killing on 3rd.
In other words, it'd have to permit tunnelling.
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@TimberGoingDown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3993734#Comment_3993734
Lol. Way to tell on yourself. Bro's running a 4 man swf and still loses all of his matches. I guess not even the most brain dead, easy mode advantages can help bad players.
Statistically, and by developer mandate, killer is the stronger role.
Maybe you should start questioning your own competence if you can't do as well as him and it's apparently such a colossal gap that you can't even fathom the possibility of doing well.
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@OmegaXII said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3993863#Comment_3993863
It doesn't necessary have to offset a dead survivor. It's the mere concept of punishing Killers for Survivor's own mistake makes it quite hard to bear with. It just doesn't feel good and justified.
Neither does tunnelling, so tit for tat.
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@OmegaXII said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3993861#Comment_3993861
Hmm I think he's trying to say "Why am I getting punished when Survivor makes mistake and died because of it"
Honestly this system shouldn't ever punish Sadako/Pig
Where does it say that, though? What's the repair boost %? Is it enough to offset a dead survivor?
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@RepossessedTV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3993530#Comment_3993530
if u play pig and get a headpop earlier in the game u lose the game, is that a strong enough argument for you of how flawed the whole system is?
or screw anyone who plays lower tier killers?
"you playing a lower tier killer is not argument" well guess i will go sit in the corner and wait for the game to end then
if u play pig and get a headpop earlier in the game u lose the game
Where does it say that?
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Who'd the killer be, though?
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@jiogo1 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3992611#Comment_3992611
many sadakos and pigs use the slug as a way to put pressure on those in power...
As do all other killers. Sadako and Pig should not be the first to come to mind when the twins exist.