Firellius
Firellius
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- Firellius
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AFK detection and anti-hide should never have been tied together, because the frankenstein monster that results in just doesn't work in either direction.
IIRC, VHS had a contestible objective spawn that'd reveal the teens' locations if the monster captured it. I think that'd be a better idea.
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@AbsolutGrndZer0 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3992591#Comment_3992591
The point isn't that it is best answer, but the fact that with all of the stacking preventions and punishments for killers that tunnel (which is IMO NOT merely hooking the same survivor back to back. If you go to the other side of the map and do a generator, then we meet up later, I am not tunneling you even if I haven't managed to hook someone else in the meantime but oh wait apparently I am tunneling you according to BHVR now) means that survivors will absolutely be able to abuse the F out of this. While I would never do so on live servers (I am a Killer main) I have many horrendous ideas of how to do so on the PTB for testing purposes.
You will be literally able to complete generators in the killer's face and they can't stop you. Slug you? You get right back up. Hook you again? They just hooked you back to back, they get punished. Actually kill you? Major punishment for the rest of the match (sure you are out of the game, but especially if you are with that dreaded 4 man SWF, that's fine… you're helping your friends even in death.) So, they just have to let you do the generator.Slug you? You get right back up.
After spending 90 seconds incapacitated.
Hook you again? They just hooked you back to back, they get punished.
There's no penalty for back-to-back hooks.
Actually kill you? Major punishment for the rest of the match
Except there's no numbers and it's still a 1v3.
The problem is that all of these scenarios get compared to the exact same scene under current patch, but that's omitting that this scene doesn't play out at all in current patch.
Survivors run. Loop. Waste your time. These 'abuse' scenarios miss that that -has- to be sacrificed as well, further shifting the balance of the scenario in the killer's favour.
Sure, you can just do the gen in the killer's face. But if you give up on that chase, that's a ton of time saved for the killer.
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@SpitefulHateful said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3993072#Comment_3993072
So abuse is when something is used against BHVR's intentions, but also when they want something in but you don't think its good for the game.
Your definition of abuse seems to equate to 'personally dislike'.
Abuse is when a mechanic meant to create a fairer experience is exploitable for gaining an unfair advantage. I named examples when anti-tunnel perks were used for more agressive play. I have also plenty of examples for sabo squad whose only mission is to deny hooks and make the trial miserable. The planned changes allow for more exploits, especially for Killers that no longer bring BHVR money (i.e. forgotten and ignored) and lack the mobility to keep with gen repair speed (and players who don't grind DbD like they get paid for it).
I personally dislike that BHVR ignores the root problem and tries to appease one side only, if anything. But my thoughts on BHVR's competence aren't pleasant in general.
Abuse is when a mechanic meant to create a fairer experience is exploitable for gaining an unfair advantage. I named examples when anti-tunnel perks were used for more agressive play.
I don't know if these perks qualify for that. It's unfair to begin with to force the locking of perk slots to remedy something that the other side gets basekit.
But also, they weren't made for anti-tunnel to begin with, they just got reworked into a position where the community labels them 'anti-tunnel'. DS especially wasn't made to make things fairer, given its original incarnation.
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@TimberGoingDown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3993245#Comment_3993245
I have literally never heard a killer call a 2k a loss, except when it comes to win streaks.
Keep it that way, because the threads where I've seen it are blood-curdling.
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@Raptorrotas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3993081#Comment_3993081
? Isnt that more like complaining about nurse existing or the strength of killers. Thats game mechanics or variables. Hatch is also a proven necessary evil.
This is about strategies or more the opposition's demand for you to not play to win.
Survivors tell killers to let the last go while survivors just... escape. Afterall when was the last time someone told survivors to just... dont.
Might be wrong cuz i havent played in a long while, but is there a collective effort to restrict survivors how they play, or shame them for their strategies, like people do against killers?
Its not even about the last escapee in a 4e to turn around and get hooked cuz "its good manners like giving a pity hatch". why arent the first three to escape contemplaiting "woah that went well but i dont need to escape, i did enough". They simply brush it off to the people escaping after them.
"I dont need [4k, escape], i did enough and show mercy" was ever only enforced on one side's players.
Yeah i admit only seeing 4k as a victory is kinda strict on yourself and might lead tosome mental stress. Survivors did well to evolve a "wanna play chill"-mentality. Which is quite exemplary, ... If they didnt try to force it on their opponent.
Isnt that more like complaining about nurse existing or the strength of killers.
It used to be, but has since lost that aspect. It's no longer about stacked perks and loadouts, but it's expanded to survivors doing gens in general.
Might be wrong cuz i havent played in a long while, but is there a collective effort to restrict survivors how they play, or shame them for their strategies, like people do against killers?
No, and there should be. Rampant hook denial is aggravating to play against. But for every mention of hook denial, there's twenty-three threads bickering that 'gens too fast', just complaining about nothing more substantive than 'I lost, fix it'.
"I dont need [4k, escape], i did enough and show mercy" was ever only enforced on one side's players.
Because only one side can do it. A killer can give hatch and win. A survivor can't give a kill and win. They need to turn their entire game into a loss to give a pity kill.
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IMO, if two survivors are dead and one's on the ground for thirty seconds, the hatch should just spawn to circumvent the slug-to-skip-hatch nonsense.
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I think they should have kept offerings as they are for killers, but when a survivor burns one, it reduces that map's odds instead.
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@Paribean said:
The knight should get a horse named Shabadoo and have the ability to kill survivors irl.
There's only room for one horse in the realm and his name is Maurice!
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@tyantlmumagjiaonuha said:
The tutorial should have included a section earlier on about what happens after being rescued from a hook.
HUD visualization, hook grab removal, AFC implementation, base kit BT. At this point, if you want to escape the so-called "tunneling" behavior where survivors get rescued consecutively, don't overthink it—just run in the opposite direction of the Killer and escape to an area with boards or window frames. If they'd just added a new section to the tutorial saying something like that, it would solve one beginner's question. Why does Dead by Daylight, as a game, rework its systems to make players who don't even know left from right—players below beginner level—able to hold their own against Killers who have a decent grasp of how to play?
Why not create additional tutorials as options where players can try out perks like OTR, DS, or DH? Then, at the end, promote DLC and offer Shards as tutorial rewards. While there have been slight improvements since the earliest days, this game isn't teaching beginners how to play. It's strapping on training wheels and protective gear and sending them straight into the fray.
Why not create additional tutorials as options where players can try out perks like OTR, DS, or DH? Then, at the end, promote DLC and offer Shards as tutorial rewards.
That sounds horrendously predatory.
'Hi, welcome to this game you bought. Here's perks that you need to be able to play. Pay up!'
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@GuardianoftheCrystal said:
So those last patch notes are something, if they go live can we reduce hooks from 3 to 2, remove the tbagging ability, and increase generators from 5 to 7? I think that would be a fair trade. Also I'm kinda shitposting here so don't take it to serious. Just some ideas.
Also I'm kinda shitposting here so don't take it to serious.
Reality has a way of overtaking satire. If these become talking points, I'm blaming you!
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@ratcoffee said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3992967#Comment_3992967
Let me repeat myself: Ryan clarified that the "dies before 6 hooks" thing only applies to deaths from re-hooking the most recent hook. The video that Onryo main made is fundamentally incorrect because the Onryo main made the same mistake you did: not reading Ryan's post and not knowing that the "dies before 6 hooks" thing does not apply to killer power kills.
Oh.
So all this handwringing was down to a miscommunication, then?
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@Whitey said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3992942#Comment_3992942
Hey, can you either play killer for more than ten games in a row or put down the crack pipe? Would you like to tell me how many full-power perks Killer gets to alleviate the meta and "unfun" survivor playstyles, compared to the frequency, potency and amount of full-power perks Survivors get not because of imbalance, but to alleviate "unfun" situations?
Would you like to tell me how many full-power perks Killer gets to alleviate the meta and "unfun" survivor playstyles
What 'unfun' playstyles are you referring to?
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@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3992852#Comment_3992852
So its not punishing weakest killer because he can leave him so his teammates or he can pick himself up thats free escape with small slowdown.
Tell me will the survivors keep it fair and after 30 seconds chase they will give him free down?
I dont think so he will get punished hard and theres nothing he can do about it this is reason why all of these changes cant go live if we dont want to see dead by nurselight.
In all situations, you are still advantaged as the killer. Either you pull another survivor off gen, or they spend an age-and-a-half on the floor, or you hook 'em for a kill. You are coming out of this ahead.
You just don't have the option to -instantly- win the game with no questions asked.
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@SurrealEcho said:
On the flipside, Survivors shouldn't care too much about a 4 out aswell? or are you a hypocrite?
That's been standard for ages. BHVR outright said they're balancing in the killer's favour and no one gave a peep.
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@BreadLord said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3992865#Comment_3992865
you dont understand. i shouldnt have to ignore someone in a trap as trapper or someone condemned
You don't have to! If you really want to, you can just hook him! It's just not the -only- option anymore!
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@Skillfulstone said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3992789#Comment_3992789
To be fair, there's a middle-ground between "free 4k" and "guaranteed loss". Neither of those should be a thing.
Imagine this;
You play fair and try to spread your hooks, the Survivors are putting up a fight but the match isn't a curbstomp either. By the time one gen is left, 3 Survivors have been hooked once and one is on 2nd hook (or any variant of 5 hooks & 0 kills) and they got themselves in a tight 3-gen. This is a kind of situation that isn't that uncommon in matches where both sides are somewhat equally matched and the Killer didn't just decide at 5 gens that the first guy hooked wouldn't get more than 8k BP.
You can't hook and kill the Survivor on 2nd hook yet, otherwise the remaining Survivors get a gen-speed boost and there's only one gen left.
If you hook one of the other Survivors in your 3-gen (which means that they will likely be in sight so the HUD misinformation won't do anything, and it's another thing that shouldn't go through to live) and you can't completely prevent an unhook (either because of playing a weaker Killer or the Survivors simply being coordinated and/or good) then you have little choice;
Hit the unhooker? They'll zoom in an empty corner of the map and by the time you catch/down and hook them, the last gen could be done.
Go after the unhooked Survivor? You can, but not only is it harder (no scratch marks/noise/blood/aura due to Elusive) but if you do get them quick then you lose gen slowdown (as the wording in the patch note doesn't say the loss of regression & gen-block is tied to hook states, only the gen-speed boost is tied to killing a Survivor at 6 or less hook states. The loss of regression & gen-block is tied to a Survivor dying after being hooked twice in a row.) and even if only 3 Survivors remain (more than enough if 1 or 2 gens are left) then there's no way to slow down gens and Survivors can simply do the gens bit by bit and pre-run safely since their progress is permanent and the Killer can't afford to stray too far from the 3-gen. It's a lose-lose situation and those should never happen on either side (which is why, among many other reasons, the first try at basekit Unbreakable was rejected almost unanimously by the community).
Sure, the top-tiers could deal with it, but we're trying to keep variety in the game. Lack of variety is one of the reasons (among others) why every other assyms around DBD dies.
In short, while the idea is noble, the execution is clumsy and heavy-handed and doesn't account for situations where "tunnelling" is objectively the best option but isn't done maliciously or so early that the player spent as much time in lobby than in game (as quite frankly, tunnelling at 5 gens isn't "necessary", very effective sure, but not necessary.)
Players don't mind getting tunnelled in endgame that much, it's understandable at that point even if it's obviously not pleasant. Players want to be able to play the game longer than the time they spent in lobby. If the "Anti-tunnel" measures deactivated after 3 gens are done then it wouldn't be as bad since at 2 gens remaining and 5-6 hooks & no kills, the game is tight but not yet lost for either side even for mid-low tiers Killers.
It's a similar reason why so many people object to basekit Unbreakable; it creates lose-lose situations and it doesn't only address the most common and annoying cases of slugging, which is slugging the last two to avoid Hatch and team-slugging/bleedouts. If "basekit Unbreakable" only kicked-in in certain situations (if only 2 Survivors are left or everyone is slugged at once, both of those being the worst kinds of slugging) then there would be way less backlash against it.
The core ideas aren't bad, but the numbers and executions are crucial to determine if it will do more harm than good. The PTB and Live release will show us how much effort and thought were put in those mechanics. There's also the perk changes (currently unknown) that will likely affect this to some extent.
You can't hook and kill the Survivor on 2nd hook yet, otherwise the remaining Survivors get a gen-speed boost and there's only one gen left.
Quick correction: The repair boost is for kills -before- 6th hook. This would be the 6th hook and thus not trigger the repair bonus.
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@BreadLord said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3992847#Comment_3992847
but you see how stupid these changes are, punishing killers for the survivors mistake.
But it's not punishing you though? You have plenty of options.
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@BreadLord said:
if a survivor unhooks in my face as trapper, i chase the unhooker, they use lithe and get distance. the person who just got unhooked steps in a trap nearby. So im gonna get punished for using the trappers power to go and pick them up and hook them?
You can hook 'em, if it doesn't kill them. There's no penalty.
If it does, you can just slug 'em and move on. Or eat the gen-block if you think it's worth it. You have plenty of options.
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@I_Cant_Loop said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3992820#Comment_3992820
I get your point - if killer is losing badly they can try to tunnel to secure a kill but if survivors are losing badly in a fair match they don’t have any strategies or mechanics to try to secure an escape. Am I understanding your point correctly?
I would say hatch is the main mechanic for survivors who have lost to try to secure an escape. Hatch isn’t a guaranteed escape, but tunneling also is not a guaranteed kill.
True, Hatch can allow an escape, but by definition it won't turn a game around anymore. Tunnelling still can.
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@I_Cant_Loop said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3992816#Comment_3992816
Survivors are getting a mechanic to turn around a losing match. That’s the anti-tunnel. Killers aren’t getting any built-in mechanics to turn around losing matches, so the only thing they can do if they are losing badly is adjust their playstyle to try to secure a killer and put a bit of pressure on the survivor team.
Remember, I am only talking about late game situations in which most gens are done and killer has few hooks. Are you really arguing at this point that it’s still unfair for killers to try to eliminate a survivor? If so, I would love to see how you handle this type of situation in your own killer matches.
I play both sides about equally so I am not trying to argue in bad faith here. I want both sides to be enjoyable and feel fair to play. I’m totally fine with the concept of preventing early game tunneling, but totally not fine with putting restrictions on how killers can play late game when they’re trying to salvage a losing match and the survivors have already had plenty to time and opportunity to have a fun and enjoyable match.Survivors are getting a mechanic to turn around a losing match. That’s the anti-tunnel.
What if they're losing without tunnelling involved?
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@I_Cant_Loop said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3992785#Comment_3992785
Um, survivors won’t get a catch-up mechanic when their teammates die in the new update?
I’m saying that the catch-up mechanic should be disabled in late game. Definitely with only 1 gen left, maybe 2? If killer has fewer than 6 hooks with only one gen left, then clearly the survivors don’t need an additional buff at that point. In this situation, please tell me what is the killer supposed to do to secure a kill and maybe put some pressure on the survivor team other than try to go for whoever has already been hooked twice? Even comp level players have to resort to this in late game if they are losing badly.
The point of the anti-tunnel should be preventing killers from cheaply eliminating survivors early in the game. Now it seems that the goal post is moving and the demands are going way beyond that. I’m talking about late game here, survivors have all had plenty of time to play and now killer has to do something to try to salvage the match. At this point it’s not “tunneling” anymore and it’s ridiculous to say that killers still should be penalized for trying to secure kills.If you want to keep tunnelling in your back pocket as a means to turn around a losing match, what comparable thing do survivors get?
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@I_Cant_Loop said:
This is something that BHVR needs to look at before the changes go live. All the anti-tunneling stuff should be disabled once 3 gens are completed. I think that would be a very good compromise. The anti tunnel is meant to discourage killers from tunneling someone out early in the game when it’s not necessary. Later in the game it is far more justifiable and should not be considered “tunneling” at that point, especially if the killer is losing badly and can’t do anything else to secure a kill.
Survivors get no catch-up when their teammates die, why should the killer? Especially since the killer can snowball at any point, unlike survivors?
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@SpitefulHateful said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3992762#Comment_3992762
I'm making fun of people who enjoy BHVR disrespecting them and exploiting them for money.
Really just proving OP's point here.
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@SpitefulHateful said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3992754#Comment_3992754
I gave up on this game long ago, I'm merely watching it die while enjoying all the Survivor hand-holding. It's funny to watch people defend devs each time they screw up though
You're not helping your case of 'devs should listen to the forums' here, bud.
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Also, if we are going with 'doing the objective as fast as possible', genrushing is also terribly ineffective because it's extremely likely to cause 3-genning.
After all, choosing a more distant gen is not 'as fast as possible'.
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@SpitefulHateful said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3992743#Comment_3992743
When I play as a Survivor, I don't rely on other Survivors in the first place and choose my perks accordingly - funny fact, my trials became must easier that way. I got iri rank and had mutliple escapes without any stress or care, so I don't have to worry about 4v1 or 3v1. The game literally gives all the assistance you need, as a Survivor.
Nope, also wrong. You can kill all survivors without triggering this, it's a separate item.- If the Survivor that was last hooked is Sacrificed or Killed, generators cannot be regressed or blocked.
How is Killer supposed not to trigger this? Not hook?
When I play as a Survivor, I don't rely on other Survivors in the first place and choose my perks accordingly - funny fact, my trials became must easier that way. I got iri rank and had mutliple escapes without any stress or care, so I don't have to worry about 4v1 or 3v1. The game literally gives all the assistance you need, as a Survivor.
There's a huge gulf between 'not being overly altruistic' and 'throwing a free kill at the killer'.
How is Killer supposed not to trigger this? Not hook?Alternate!
If you put B on death hook, then hook C, then kill B, this thing doesn't trigger.
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@SpitefulHateful said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3992749#Comment_3992749
Yes. Because none of the issues detected in the last PTB were fixed, which shows that BHVR pays no attention to feedback. BHVR is stacking a Jenga tower of bugs, issues, and problems, and keeps adding more on top—this approach is not changing, but everybody expects a miracle.
If they're not listening to feedback then, they're not listening now, so what difference does it make to you?
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@SpitefulHateful said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3992738#Comment_3992738
And your feedback is "let's blindly trust the devs, they are clearly competent and know what they're doing, also they totally weren't documented ignoring and dismissing solid advice on a recent live stream".
Oh, is that what I said?
@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3992693#Comment_3992693
Problem is that the forums are currently inundated with folks that were never going to give this update a fair shake. If they end up listening to them, this update will be a complete disaster.
At least don't gather feedback until the PTB hits, because a lot of this update hinges on the numbers.
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@SpitefulHateful said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3992727#Comment_3992727
I'm not doing anything of the sort. You mentioned survivors 'abusing' this, but are unwilling to think about what the repair speed boost would need to be in order for this early, free kill to be outweighed.
Survivors scattered across gens can complete two gens at once in a single chase (and it's without any gen speed perks and tools), while gen regression perks have been rendered useless. Survivors with perks and tools can do even more. Even if the buff is 10%, it's still a solid way to secure a win, which is worth the sacrifice. Who cares ditching just one Survivor if it secures an easy escape, which mean they won't need extra hands for hooking, healing, etc.?
Survivors have more tools to control the game, meanwhile only A-tier Killers like Nurse and Blight can keep up.
Doesn't happen for an early kill, only for killing the most recent hook. You control this as killer.
So, if the Killer kills one survivor early, giving a free speed boost, and then kills another survivor, the rest gets gen speed + renders all regression/blocking perks useless. So what, don't kill survivors untill they fix all the gens and t-bag at the exit gate?
Even if the buff is 10%, it's still a solid way to secure a win, which is worth the sacrifice.
Are you serious? You'd rather do the remaining gens in a 1v3 with +10% repair speed, than in a 4v1?
Because I'm pretty sure all previous discussion about anti-tunnel points towards no killers agreeing with you.
So, if the Killer kills one survivor early, giving a free speed boost, and then kills another survivor, the rest gets gen speed + renders all regression/blocking perks useless.
Nope, also wrong. You can kill all survivors without triggering this, it's a separate item.
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@SpitefulHateful said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3992725#Comment_3992725
The latest BHVR's failures state otherwise, but keep lying to yourself.
But your only feedback is 'the last patches didn't work so just give up and stop trying'.
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@SpitefulHateful said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3992705#Comment_3992705
I didn't dodge anything. Sacrificng one player for 3-person escape has never been an issue for survivors, not in SoloQ, not in SWF. Also, the amount of times I saw SWFs just throw the SoloQ survivor under the bus because they didn't meet their performance standards and thus, deserve to be sacrificed, tells me that this tendency will increase after the changes.
UPD: If it's that hard for you to understand - generators already take seconds to repair, while regressing at much slower rate. There is an infinte amount of perks + tools that allow to accelerate this process even if there is only one survivor sitting on the gen. A gen repair boost + inability to regress and block gens after killing one survivor is a huge buff for the rest of the group and it definitely offsets one survivor dying. Also, you base your opinion on a bias that survivors are that tight-knit "we're in this together" group that will go through hell and back to rescue everyone, while that's rarely the case.
Sacrificng one player for 3-person escape has never been an issue for survivors, not in SoloQ, not in SWF.
This is a truism.
'It's worth doing, if it's worth doing' is not an argument.
Throwing a survivor under the bus means ditching someone who can do gens, who can heal, who can make a save, who can loop the killer.
So this sacrifice requires the repair speed boost to outweigh all that survivor potential. I ask you to value it and your answer is
'If it's high enough, it's high enough'
inability to regress and block gens after killing one survivor
Doesn't happen for an early kill, only for killing the most recent hook. You control this as killer.
Also, you base your opinion on a bias that survivors are that tight-knit "we're in this together" group that will go through hell and back to rescue everyone, while that's rarely the case.
I'm not doing anything of the sort. You mentioned survivors 'abusing' this, but are unwilling to think about what the repair speed boost would need to be in order for this early, free kill to be outweighed.
Because if it's something like 10%, it's laughable to think that any killer would be meaningfully hindered by a survivor intentionally saving them chases and setting them up for a snowball for a joke of a speed boost!
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@SpitefulHateful said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3992722#Comment_3992722
I know this update won't succeed, just like I knew that BHVR parasitizes on licenses and nerfs them into ground as soon as they no longer bring money (while original chapters get massively neglected and are released in a half-baked state); just like I knew that BHVR cares about milking players for cash more than it cares about giving positive experience; just like I knew that BHVR needs to be slapped with its own bugs and exploits to stop wiggling its way out of acknowledging it. I was right every time, no matter how much people argued and defended the devs. Right now, BHVR clearly prioritizes their Sable skin buyers over anything else - their funeral.
Also, leave your replies in the according thread.
Then you have no useful feedback and you should not be listened to. Exactly as OP says.
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@Coffee2Go said:
Anyone that does not agree that both
Confirmed kills = gens completed
&
Gens comp = confirmed kills
Is just trying to generally troll and keep sabotage the game to be balanced around that.
As much as gens are main objective for survivors so are confirmed kills for the killer
4 =/= 5
A completed gen shrinks the playing field and makes things harder for survivors.
A killed survivor makes thing WAY easier for the killer.
They are only comparable in function, not effect.
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@SpitefulHateful said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3992720#Comment_3992720
I even expanded my last reply to make it as clear as possible to you. Just because you don't like what I have to say doesn't mean I'm dodging.
No, because you just throw a truism at it.
'If it's worth doing, it's worth doing'
Which firstly is a nonsense answer and secondly is very clearly NOT an answer to the question posed, but rather an attempt to pre-empt what follows.
The truth is that you're exactly what OP is talking about. You don't WANT this update to succeed and you're willing to avoid all thought and consideration of it in order to stop it happening.
Your feedback is based specifically off of not thinking about it.
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@SpitefulHateful said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3992718#Comment_3992718
I answered your question twice in that thread.
No, you keep dodging it. A question of whether something is worthwhile to do can't be answered with 'it just is'.
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@SpitefulHateful said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3992716#Comment_3992716
What kind of question did you ask me in this thread?
Got the threads mixed up.
What repair speed bonus would offset a dead survivor?
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@SpitefulHateful said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3992714#Comment_3992714
So, you expect to trust BHVR with applying changes to PTB after the disastrous Walking Dead PTB?
Answer the question.
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@SpitefulHateful said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3992709#Comment_3992709
Answer the question.
How did the Walking Dead PTB go through?
Went like a lead balloon.
Answer the question.
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@SpitefulHateful said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3992697#Comment_3992697
How did Walking Dead PTB go through? Surely, many of the issues detected there were instantly fixed and totally didn't show that BHVR were a complete embarassment at their work.
If you're too scared to even think about this update, let others do the talking.
If you can't answer the question, at least have the decency to admit you have no idea what this patch will be like.
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@SpitefulHateful said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3992703#Comment_3992703
I literally answered that. Taking out 1 survivor, so that other 3 could repair gens and leave? Any SWF will gladly accept that exchange. Many of them already have a designated chasebaiter for distracting the Killer.
No you didn't, you dodged it.
'Players will sacrifice one to get the 3e if they can' is not an answer to the question of IF they can.
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@SpitefulHateful said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3992701#Comment_3992701
SWFs squads take no issue with sacrificing one survivor if 3 can escape. It has never been a problem.
Answer the question.
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@SpitefulHateful said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3992696#Comment_3992696
Like they abuse DS and other anti-tunneling perks? Like they abuse anti-slugging perks and sabo builds?
If the Killer can't hook and and the same Survivor because it will make crazy gen repair speed even faster, guess what kind of Survivor will be in the Killer's way 90% of the time, wasting their time?
If Survivors don't have to worry about picking slugged Survivors up anymore, guess how many sabo squads are going to deny Killers hooks just to mess with them?
These changes assume that people are decent. But multiplayer games consist of particularly despicable beings on an ego trip, so these changes will be opening a brand new can of worms.
If the Killer can't hook and and the same Survivor because it will make crazy gen repair speed even faster, guess what kind of Survivor will be in the Killer's way 90% of the time, wasting their time?
What repair speed bonus would offset a dead survivor?
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@UndeddJester said:
BHVR have made concerted efforts to listen to it's community, after years of not doing so... why on earth would you want to encourage that, just because you happen to agree with this one?
Some examples of issues born of not listening to the community: -
- Hillbilly being completely reworked to have the universally hated overheat mechanic, and falling from one of the most popular killers for both sides instead of just fixing his instasaw add-ons.
- Spirit with no skill based counter play for years due to her non directional phasing audio, leaving survivors to only guess.
- Pig being infamously nerfed on repeat despite being an already weaker killer.
- Instablinds running rampant for ages.
- Nurse and Blight being lightyears stronger than the rest of the roster and taking literally years to get meaningful nerfs.
- Dead Hard and Decisive Strike running rampant for years.
- The infamous kills = skill drama.
Some issues that have been prevented/resolved by listening to community feedback: -
- Twins rework that would have made them utterly broken to play against.
- The Thrill of the Hunt update that made Hexes incredibly oppressive.
- The Mettle of Man meta that fundamentally broke the game.
- The dismantling of the 6.1.0 gen kick meta.
- Numerous perks changes since 7.0.0 that made overpowered perks more reasonable and rather useless perks being made far more viable, with more build options/paths available than ever before.
Now not every instance of listening to the community is good, such as the Freddy and Skull Merchant debacles. That's why it's incumbent on us, the fans of the game to argue and debate with good reasoning to the best of our ability....
Not every change in this update is bad, but not every change in this update is good either. Some changes have the potentialbto be great changes, and some have potential to be bloody awful... one should definitely not encourage the idea that players shouldn't voice their concerns and have BHVR just shunt everything through without scrutiny.
Problem is that the forums are currently inundated with folks that were never going to give this update a fair shake. If they end up listening to them, this update will be a complete disaster.
At least don't gather feedback until the PTB hits, because a lot of this update hinges on the numbers.
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@SpitefulHateful said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3992451#Comment_3992451
Also love how everyone assume that survivors (bully sqyads especially) aren't going to abuse the hell out of these changes, like they were doing with DS and other anti-tunneling perks. Humans are known for being decent and considerate of others and never exploiting anything just to cause misery, y'know /s
How do you think they'll abuse them? Give the killer free kills?
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@oecrophy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3992653#Comment_3992653
Not every surv is bad ..
plenty of survivors actually enjoy a direct tunnel. The tunneled one gets the most interaction—the chase, first pick of resources, control of the opening. Meanwhile teammates are on M1 duty. The next person in rotation inherits fewer tiles—sometimes straight dead zones. That’s way less fun than being first in the tunnel.
So only one survivor gets to have a chance at fun and you have to hope it's someone who enjoys being tunnelled.
Compelling argument for banning tunnelling, NGL.
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@oecrophy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3992643#Comment_3992643
They can, and they will. I’ll still play the way I play under the new rules. And I hope a lot of killers follow — swaps to top killers included. Plenty feel the same: never had an issue with tunneling before, but with these changes? We adapt. We min-max the meta. Expect more Nurse/Blight.
Expect compensatory nerfs if you continue creating the same problems.
Like it or not, BHVR has to care about everyone's enjoyment. And that means, by proxy, you do too.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3990157#Comment_3990157
Could try giving Knockout's old effect to Victor.
OP is right, if you are using Twins correctly and get a down with Victor, Charlotte is so far away that the new changes make it impossible for her to play against certain perks and/or combos.
Slowing down slug speed, slowing recovery and/or hiding their auras would help as a bandaid until Twins get a more detailed look.
Maybe Victor should be able to attach to a down to prevent them from moving or recovering?
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@oecrophy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3992572#Comment_3992572
And regardless—even if BHVR handed me every tool to win faster or easier, that’s not the point. I’m not BHVR’s court jester sent in to entertain survivor stacks. I’m the Killer. If people misplay in front of me and openings appear, I should be allowed to punish and capitalize without putting myself at a forced disadvantage.
That’s my job. In a match I have one task: killing. What I refuse most is this: survivors can play badly while I’m expected to stand there, look the other way, and “accept” it—then I’m the one who gets punished, even though they are the ones misplaying.
And regardless—
even if BHVR handed me every tool to win faster or easier, that’s not the point. I’m not BHVR’s court jester sent in to entertain survivor stacks. I’m the Killer.It's a PvP game, you're not the only player there. BHVR has a right to set the rules as they see fit, and if the way you play breaks the fundamental enjoyment of the game, they have every reason to implement changes.
The game only works so long as it's engaging. If it no longer is, it must change.
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@tuttoinunavolta said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3992269#Comment_3992269
"Loads of killers have stated that this is such a colossal powerboost that it's why they tunnel."
Mind you, we are saying "colossal powerboost" in regards to killing people, in the game where the killer side has one single objective: killing people. I'm not talking about tunneling as I even explicitly said "We're not talking about a tunneling killer" in my last post, I'm talking about following the role's main and sole objective, and you're saying that the killer advancing their objective by having killed one survivor is "the most effective shortcut to victory".
This is like saying "many cooks admit preparing the dough is the most effective shortcut to make a pizza".
"So if you want to reduce tunnelling, you have to address that."
If you want to address tunneling, you need to have mechanics that address tunneling. Tunneling means to play "with a tunnel vision" and hard focus on one single survivor, completely ignoring the others. That's the definition. Having a mechanic that affects that Dwight-Meg-Dwight-Jake-Dwight hooking order I mentioned earlier has nothing to do with tunneling, and you know it, and that's why you avoided addressing it at all.
And you can maintain the stance you want, but at least stop using "tunneling" as an excuse, because you effectively just want to add benefits to the survivor side whenever the killer gets a kill no matter whether they play fairly or not. And that's definitely a point of view that can be discussed fairly and be taken seriously, but as long as you preface it as "anti-tunneling" when it clearly isn't, you're just muddying the waters and it's not a fair way to discuss the mechanics you would like to see added to the game
"Keep in mind that the non-tunnelling killer gets bonus regression, haste and intel"
This whole post was about how Sadako has unpredicted interactions with the way these new mechanics work btw. And you're bringing up bonuses that wouldn't affect her at all, while she gets still stuck in anti-tunneling mechanics when not tunneling and using her power. Besides, you can't compare the "Intel" bonus to the permanent gen repair speed, since that can be easily and predictably countered by entering a locker when you see the killer pick up your teammate. The Pop Goes the Weasel-like mechanic could also very situational compared to the perma repair speed boost, as it straight out cancels for killers like Sadako and might not be useful for killers with low mobility depending on the game situation.
"This is especially exemplified with 3-genning, which eventually became such a colossal advantage that it devolved into hour-long lock-outs."
3-genning was a very problematic thing, and they dealt with it in a great way. There shouldn't be killers that have the power to maintain 3-gens from the very start of the game like old Skully and Knight, and all the changes they applied made it so whether a 3-gen happens or not is in equal control of both sides and it's a salvageable situation, unlike how it was back when Skull Merchant released. We could argue Singularity could get some changes for this and I wouldn't be against it (I'm just not knowledgeable about that guy at all but I do guess he could try to start 3gens more easily than anybody else right now), but that is a one-character situation here.
Otherwise, survivors are as much in control of the gens they complete, if not more; if a 3gens happens nowadays, it's very much possible they were the ones who caused it.
Nobody here was arguing that survivors shouldn't use pallets at all, but I'm saying that if you loop and play your pallets mindfully, you will still have pallets in the areas where it matters during endgame (= nearby gens that weren't completed yet). You say that killers are advantaged by less pallets being around, but this advantage comes from survivors deciding to use their resources when they used them, so it is effectively an advantage that is under the control of survivors. We should definitely make a case for Haddonfield, which is an objectively awful map for survivors that needs more pallets (and you could make the same case with roles reversed for the Gideon meat plant as well, which definitely needs less strong pallets), but aside from these two outliers, the way pallets work is perfectly balanced. Survivors have this resource that can help them a lot: if they use them well, it can win them the game. If they use it mindlessly and badly, they'll get punished for it. There's no reason we should add buffs to the survivors because the killer got a kill, no matter how the survivors are playing and faring.
"But you did have to toss in an 'and perks' there because you realised survivors got jack in the mechanics department, didn't you?"
Not at all, I said perks just in case you were including NOED in your reasoning, since that is usually brought up in these conversations and there are many survivor perks that can turn the tides just as radically as it can (and I believe all these perks should exist and they have their place in the game, no matter whether I like them or not).
Also, perks do matter when we're discussing balance, whether you like it or not. Pretty much every perk that was meta for the killer side in the last few years has been nerfed (and almost always for the better, there are like only 2 minor changes here I disagree with): Eruption, COB, Overcharge, Pop, Pain Res, Sloppy Butcher, PWYF, Franklin's, Knock Out... And many useless perks became viable, without becoming obnoxious (Predator, Zenshin, Grim Embrace, Thrilling Tremors...).
The same has happened on survivor side as well, and besides a few arguable changes on both occasions, that's amazing in both cases.
I actually play both sides (and I'm sorry for the assumption but I feel like I could bet money that the same is definitely not true for you) and I ironically have double the hours on survivor than on killer, and I can send you my DBD tracker stats to show that.
In terms of mechanical additions that generally help survivors, there were many that were added even just in the last 1-2 years, such as the 8 gen kick limit, the removal of hook grabs, longer hook states, longer aura reading for gates after gens are completed, faster chest opening times and better chests in general... I was one of the three people who actively used old maps and keys a lot and I personally hate the change, but when you consider the basekit items before and after, with no purple/iri addons, they are better now (old green keys, lol) and they allow survivors to basically equip perks like WoO without equipping those perks. And I only mentioned very recent changes. Mind you, I think all of these changes were great (besides maps and keys, but that's a personal thing), I'm bringing them up just because you forgot about them. All these changes, just like the improvements to killer mechanics (like no more 5-heals medkits and gen touches instantly stopping regression) all make for a better and more balanced game. And most of the anti-slugging and anti-tunneling changes proposed for this PTB do that, as well! Every anti-tunneling change they proposed is genuinely great. But the 6 hook thing affects too many cases that are NOT tunneling and that's why it's problematic and needs to either be changed or removed.
Saying survivors got nothing is just a lie at this point. I promise I will take you seriously even if you explicitly said "I want survivors to get bonuses whenever a killer gets a kill, no matter whether they were tunneling or not", because that's objectively what you have been arguing for since the start. And that's your opinion and you have the right to have it, I would heavily disagree with you still, but at least you're being clear about the things you're arguing for, without muddying the waters on purpose. But most people (not necessarily you) on this thread are calling me a tunneler despite my main concern here being that Sadako thing which is in no way tunneling.
if tunneling really is the only concern of everybody here, I don't understand why it's so hard to say "this mechanic should be tweaked so it still exists but doesn't affect non-tunneling situations". I don't understand why it's so important that this "anti-tunneling" mechanic should still affect Sadako's Condemn despite not being related to tunneling. And inevitably from my perspective it does kinda look like for some people in this thread it's not about tunneling at all.
Mind you, we are saying "colossal powerboost" in regards to killing people, in the game where the killer side has one single objective: killing people.
Yes, we know. Killing is the objective, we've been over this plenty. But an early kill, making it a 3v1 as fast as possible, instantly skews the match miles in the killer's favour.
That's not part of the objective. You're not required to get a 3v1 ASAP. But it makes such a huge difference that it's a driving factor behind tunnelling. THE driving factor, even. You can't address the problem of tunnelling without addressing this factor.
Having a mechanic that affects that Dwight-Meg-Dwight-Jake-Dwight hooking order I mentioned earlier has nothing to do with tunneling, and you know it, and that's why you avoided addressing it at all.
But here's the thing: This same update feeds the killer a bunch of buffs in this scenario. If these two factors balance out, the non-tunneller is not, net, affected by these changes. So the non-tunneller isn't getting punished, just side-graded.
And again, it's extremely unlikely that the repair speed bonus by itself will offset the dead survivor.
This whole post was about how Sadako has unpredicted interactions with the way these new mechanics work btw. And you're bringing up bonuses that wouldn't affect her at all, while she gets still stuck in anti-tunneling mechanics when not tunneling and using her power.
Using her power to do what? Focus one survivor out of the game without hooking anyone else?
Otherwise, survivors are as much in control of the gens they complete
That's an oversimplification. Killers can absolutely change their gameplay to prioritise specific gens, and even if they don't hard-force a 3-gen, they can herd survivors towards it.
Ultimately, the game always slows down and naturally tips in the killer's favour as it progresses, that's a built-in way in which killers have their own comeback mechanics that the upcoming changes mirror.
In terms of mechanical additions that generally help survivors, there were many that were added even just in the last 1-2 years
But we weren't talking general changes. We were talking comeback, and second chance. Opening chests faster is not a comeback mechanism.
(Sorry for the shorter post, on mobile)
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@Foggyguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3992589#Comment_3992589
Nah they have a point, it's just not articulated well. Killing a survivor makes the game easier for the killer and finishing a gen makes the game harder for the survivor.
That is certainly true, but not what I got out of the OP.