Firellius
Firellius
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4007268#Comment_4007268
Where is your source that the regression perks were the ONLY killer perk changes that were made because of the phase 2 anti-tunnel/anti-slug/anti-camp changes?
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4007286#Comment_4007286
You literally said "The comment about gen regression was brought about because the anti tunnel and slug systems that brought some of the regression base kit were reverted, and so were their perks, yet tenacity was not and survivors can no longer recover while crawling"
You're literally saying that because ALL the gen regression perk nerfs were reverted, that therefore tenacity's perk nerf should be reverted.
You're literally ignoring the fact that other killer perks were nerfed, and are still nerfed. You keep saying SOURCE SOURCE SOURCE, but you never gave a source to why the gen regression perks are the only perks that people should care about.
Where is your source that the regression perks were the ONLY killer perk changes that were made because of the phase 2 anti-tunnel/anti-slug/anti-camp changes?
Where's the part where I said that?
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4007247#Comment_4007247
Because DMS was nerfed because of the anti-tunneling update, because the anti-tunneling update involved basekit gen defense.
This whole thread is trying to set a false narrative, that EVERY killer perk that was involved in this update, is required to be a regression perk.
Because DMS was nerfed because of the anti-tunneling update
Source?
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@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4007190#Comment_4007190
I'm a big fan of OTR's new effect, but this really isn't the time to remove Endurance for it.
Until there's some more base anti-tunnel measures it should stay how it was.
This is pretty much my sentiment. After 6.1, it became clear that the move from DS to OTR was awful for both parties, since DS is way harder to 'weaponise', and OTR is way easier to circumvent/chew through. I suggested back then that OTR should truly be 'off the record' and remove ALL forms of tracking: No breathing sounds, no grunts of pain, no footsteps, no scratch marks, no blood pools, no aura reading, no killer instinct, no screaming, no loud noise notifications. This would make OTR a much more high-risk-high-reward anti-tunnel, since it offers no innate protection but can force the killer to lose chase.
However, we didn't get that either, since all we got was scratch marks getting removed, which isn't nearly enough to make breaking chase an option, especially since the unhooked survivor is likely still leaving a trail of blood, which effectively negates the scratch mark obscuring.
OTR should be made into a black-out perk AFTER the tunnel changes.
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4007141#Comment_4007141
Yet all of these changes still relating to this system. Doesn't cancel the whole message - not everything exclusively for survivors were nerfed.
It’s reasonable why the issue went only with system of components. I’m not sure what exactly BHVR are using, but in private repositories every commitment usually is going with fetching branches. Some files might be lost from previous commits, so they need to redouble check their archives. That’s also explaining how unnecessary hook stages and auto recovery from slug went to this update. The whole PTB and current patch were mixed in extremely messy way.
That’s why OTR change gonna be in bug fix patch. They didn't say they gonna rework it either.
What will happen if it turns my interpretation of their message would be correct? Will all the dovnvotes and the clinging to the messages disappear? I doubt it. So, please’ let’s close this theme and accept that not everyone sharing your way of reading this conveniently obscure messageYet all of these changes still relating to this system. Doesn't cancel the whole message - not everything exclusively for survivors were nerfed.
Nobody said that.
But of the perks that had their functionality moved into basekit (Those being OTR, Tenacity, and the four regression perks), the only ones that did -not- get reverted to account for the basekit changes not going through are OTR and Tenacity.
BHVR themselves specified that the four regression perks DID get reverted specifically because the basekit changes didn't go through, and they, for some reason, also tossed in Borrowed Time and Babysitter into that category. (Notably, both of those were buffed in 9.2.0, and also, neither of them had functionality moved to basekit, so their inclusion makes little sense)
They specifically chose NOT to revert OTR and Tenacity. There is NO reasonable possibility of this being a 'mistake', unlike what you claimed.
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@bleep275 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4007014#Comment_4007014
did you consider that the reason we’re not talking about survivor toxicity is because…that isn’t the topic? The OP described frustration over the lack of the promised anti-tunnel update features. My comments were about tunneling. Your replies to me were about tunneling.
I’m not going to shift the topic to an unrelated argument. If you want to talk about survivor toxicity…go make a thread for it.
If you want to talk about survivor toxicity…go make a thread for it.
Chiming in here to say: Please actually do, because I am sick and tired of this particular problem almost exclusively being brought up as a 'gotcha' in response to survivors voicing their complaints.
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4007010#Comment_4007010
What about DMS? It also got nerfed. Nurse Calling and deer hunter? All of them related to antislug and gen incentives changes and went along with to it. Would u call it mistake as well?
BHVR is clearly trying to have it both ways. I don’t know what’s happening inside company, but now they have an incomprehensible storm where they try to please everyone and end up irritating instead. They created TWD which bugs affected killers in a bad way more, they somehow nerfed fog vials trying to please killers. Survivors went frustrated- they brought anti slug and anti tunnel PTB patch before their intentional road map. Killer were frustrated over PTB, they doing this right now. Simple consequences of trying to please emotions rather than actual balancing. Many peoples wanted this and didn't realise it can backfire on both sides here and there.
Clearly, they “buffed” tunneling to justify changes later, nothing new.
But this doesn't mean they'll give this perk a third version. A bug fix means a bug fix patch, not a rework. I may understand mad reaction of it now, but what it makes with my personal message?
What about DMS? It also got nerfed. Nurse Calling and deer hunter?
None of these perks had any of their components moved over to basekit in the tunnel/slugging changes.
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4006438#Comment_4006438
I’m pretty sure changes in Bugfix patches means fixing what they’ve done when it went wrong. Not completely changing perk and giving it third look, because it's bugfix patch.
They also said before that every perk that was changed regard “anti system” will be cancelled, but they forgot about tenacity and off the record. So clearly, it was a mistake. They simply forgot about them
What the point of your message? Last time u made a weird note about PvE and took it back in a manner “I didn't tell anything”, now u catching up to the phrase. Not really nice behaviour
They also said before that every perk that was changed regard “anti system” will be cancelled, but they forgot about tenacity and off the record. So clearly, it was a mistake. They simply forgot about them
There is no possibility of it being a mistake, since they didn't forget to revert any other perk tangled up in the changes, including undoing the buffs to Babysitter and Borrowed Time.
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@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4006907#Comment_4006907
I'm sorry, but just telling the other side in an asymmetric game "Don't play in a way that I don't like" just isn't gonna fly.
Would you find that argument persuasive if I said something like that about Survivors? I mean, obviously not, or the conversation wouldn't have gotten to this point.
There's a whole tangled mess of incentives and rewards for Killers to tunnel, and until you deal with that, tunneling isn't going to stop anytime soon. You can scream at Killers until the end of time that they shouldn't tunnel, but I'd bet my life on it that plenty of them will keep tunneling anyway so long as the game allows it.
The sooner you accept that, the better; the sooner we can move the conversation in a productive direction and embrace solutions that actually work.
Blame the individual if you want a handful of rare exceptions, blame the system if you want results.
Or in the meantime, if you really hate tunneling that much, why don't you just main Killer? There's plenty of things to dislike about playing Killer, but getting tunneled most certainly isn't one of them.
Would you find that argument persuasive if I said something like that about Survivors?
Personally, yes. I have stated this multiple times. However...
@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4006940#Comment_4006940
Doing gens. Not screwing around with totems or other side objectives, just doing your main objective as efficiently and effectively as possible. Because in case you've forgotten, the Killer's objective is to kill the Survivors, and tunneling is generally a very effective way to accomplish that; once one Survivor is out of the game, the rest are in a greatly weakened position and can be dispatched much more easily.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4006935#Comment_4006935
I'm sorry, but fun is subjective. There's lots of things I hate more than tunneling, even when playing Survivor; I'm genuinely more upset by a Killer who chooses to BM and be a jerk in the endgame chat than a Killer who plays to win in the scummiest ways possible.
So unless you've got some way to prove that your subjective experience of DbD is objectively correct, it's simply your word against mine when it comes to which optimal strategies are or aren't "problematic" or worthy of condemnation.
And I disagree; the biggest source of toxicity in this game is BM. Because there are plenty of incentives and rewards to use optimal strategies that might upset the other side, but there's absolutely no material benefit to taunting your opponents other than upsetting them. There's no real excuse for it.
Doing gens.
When push comes to shove, the killer community cannot think of anything they actually dislike, except for one thing: losing.
And that's not something we can 'fix'.
Come up with an actual problem and you'll get support.
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I seem to recall that accounts had to earn the right to post images. Was that a different forum then?
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@BorisDDAA said:
Don't worry. Maybe they'll get buffed in one year.
Nine years down the line, they finally announce a rework for survivor items and then some forum killer complains and we somehow come out of it with no changes except Appraisal lost its rummage speed bonus, somehow.
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@sinkra said:
BHVR is scared to make 2v8 permanent because they know most players would never touch 1v4 again.
I remember RIOT actually officially confirming that the reason they weren't keen on returning certain gamemodes in League of Legends is because they noticed a steep playerbase drop-off whenever those gamemodes closed again.
So there's industry precedent, for sure.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4006048#Comment_4006048
Do you honestly think Dead Man's Switch was just coincidentally changed in the PTB, completely unrelated to the basekit Pop?
Yes.
Because the reason all the other perks got changed was because their aspects were basekitted. Tenacity lost the crawl because that was moved to basekit. OTR lost the endurance because that was moved to basekit. All the other regression perks lost a portion of their regression because that was moved to basekit.
Dead Man's Switch wasn't mechanically interlinked with the update at all, so I don't know why you think it's part of that group.
But again, even if you want to disagree with that, you are factually incorrect when you claim that I was wrong about what I said, because I specified 'regression perks' on top of that. You claimed they didn't un-nerf all the regression perks, so I want to know which regression perks I missed.
Because you can't argue that DMS and Leverage are regression perks.
(And you'll be hard-pressed to argue Leverage got nerfed at all)
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DBD roadmap.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
They screwed up when they "fixed" ruin two years ago and undid the wrong part.
It should be 200%, but deactivate when a survivor dies.
The fact that they left the regression and removed the anti tunnel just blows my mind.
With how 'us versus them' this game is, it's incredibly likely that any change is good for one side, bad for the other.
The way Ruin was handled in and after 6.1 accomplishes the miraculous feat of being worse for both sides.
And if I had a nickel for every time they managed to somehow find a way to make things worse for both sides, I'd have two nickels. Which isn't much, but it's inexcusable that it happened twice.
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@oecrophy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4005728#Comment_4005728
Are we to the point where we are calling anyone who disagrees "newbies or casuals"
he’s super new. like, 500 hours total and under 70 hours in the last four years. that’s brand new for dbd … especially for a pvp game that’s been out this long. thats just no time.
doesn’t mean i’m calling him bad — i never did. why would i? he’s just new. and has soo much to learn. and not active enough to even get into the lobbies active players see. (and lots of killer mains i know with thousands of hours don’t do that either .. they often choose to play softer/meme/more chill/whatever, sweat every g ame is just not fun for them.. i accept that).
definitely not in a position to judge my lobbies when i’m sitting at 15,000 hours and normally 100 hours in 2 weeks (and not spread under 100 h over 4 years (he is just in super super new player lobbies and has a totally different experience, doesnt mean his is less worth then mine, but im not the person downvoting everything ).
i can vouch for my lobbies and speak on them, same way he does. I share my experience, same as he does.
Why are you quoting me when you were referring to Crogers?
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@drmcsleepy410 said:
OTR, Tenacity gutted even though the anti slug anti tunnelling patch was scrapped.
Another overturned ghoul 2.0 killer that can vault pallets and get easy double taps.None of the gen regression perks like pop, pain res getting the planned nerfs but the OTR nerf went through meaning it was intentional.
Y’all get crumbs every update but still continue to queue up. It’s honestly courageous and sad at the same timeNone of the gen regression perks like pop, pain res getting the planned nerfs but the OTR nerf went through meaning it was intentional.
Even better, they did revert Babysitter and Borrowed Time.
Tenacity losing 90% of its value is fine, but two extra seconds of Borrowed Time is just too damn much, apparently.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4005733#Comment_4005733
Dead Man's Switch is a gen defense perk, that was changed because of the basekit pop from the anti-tunnel update.
Leverage was changed because of the anti-tunnel update, because it was primarily used as a tunneling perk.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4005672#Comment_4005672
Do you know how many survivors don't value the stealth aspect of OTR, and get frustrated that the endurance portion is useless when a killer is tunneling them off a hook? A lot of survivors don't actually value OTR as a good anti-tunnel perk. Its popularity is often with survivors that want to combo it with DS, so they can weaponize two perks against the killer.
Compare this to Dead Man's Switch, which actually is a really amazing gen defense perk, and that is the most popular type of killer perk.
Dead Man's Switch is a gen defense perk, that was changed because of the basekit pop from the anti-tunnel update.
Leverage was changed because of the anti-tunnel update, because it was primarily used as a tunneling perk.
Firstly, my claim was that regression perks had their nerfs reverted. You claim this is incorrect by pointing to a non-regression perk, which is obviously missing the mark.
Secondly: do you have anything to back these statements up?
Because unlike with the actual gen regression perks, OTR, and Tenacity, no component of either of these perks was basekitted, so neither of their nerfs were intrinsically entangled with the tunnel and slugging changes.
What makes you think that they were changed because of the tunnel and slug changes?
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4005802#Comment_4005802
Oh no.
They are making it play against Infinite Mend Legion, the only bannable bug!
It's facing down the true, final form of Forever Freddy!
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4005767#Comment_4005767
I've had my moments. I have compiled a list of posts :)
POV: Me after MMR was added and it actually worked.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/6SIIRG45OG1U/screenshot-2025-09-24-174627.png
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/XHNQ7VCNHIHD/screenshot-2025-09-24-174653.png
Auto-ban system that was scrapped. Thank God.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/PILZM7W8MPYZ/screenshot-2025-09-24-174719.png
There's me when Ruin got nerfed WAY back when.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/CLZLBGO6CPFJ/screenshot-2025-09-24-174801.png
Hey! There's a Console-Only Tier list from 2019!
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/BFKCXD06ZHQV/screenshot-2025-09-24-174921.png
And finally, the big tunneling strikes again.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/9AIL5COWZ9O5/screenshot-2025-09-24-174934.png
Safe to say, yes, I had my moments as a Killer main. Glad I grew out of it, literally in a lot of cases. I've found that you get a little calmer as you get older.
Ah, the good old days, with the old forums!
@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4005796#Comment_4005796
they just BUTCHERED off the record. you know what. butcher is an understatement. They [insert teh most horrific thing you can image here] to Off the Record.
They made Off the Record play against release SM??????
Worse, because OTR is stuck in that match for far longer than just an hour! According to Mandy, it's gonna be stuck in that match until the next bugfix patch!
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4005750#Comment_4005750
I see that from older members more often than not, to be honest.
Not a lot of people left that remember me from my super Killer-sided days.
If you ever had anything that could be called 'super killer-sided days'. I remember disagreeing with you at some point, but I've certainly never seen you make the kind of takes that seem to permeate the forums nowadays.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4005747#Comment_4005747
And then I'll have to post the stats.
and then they stop replying to me :(
"But you must be a survivor main! I haven't seen you agree with me once in the three days I've been on this forum!"
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4005728#Comment_4005728
But…I am a Forum Killer :(
Question the dogma and cause a paradox, since forum killers are also, to a one, 'Top MMR'.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4005661#Comment_4005661
Here’s the original claim…
“They didn't forget to un-nerf the regression perks that were impacted by the hook incentives, and while I figured there was still some weird way they just 'forgot' to do the same for the survivor side, they did cancel two perk buffs, so they did go over this.They consciously decided to keep the survivor nerfs”
So, the original response was this claim is incorrect, because BHVR didn’t actually un-nerf all the regression perks.
Dead Man’s Switch is still nerfed…. And Leverage is also still nerfed. I originally didn’t mention Leverage, because I didn’t want to deal with anyone trying to argue that Leverage “was actually buffed”, even though it’s obviously meant to be a nerf.
Neither Dead Man's Switch nor Leverage are regression perks.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4005535#Comment_4005535
Are we to the point where we are calling anyone who disagrees "newbies or casuals"
It's part of the forum killer dogma. If you question them, it is you who is bad.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4005209#Comment_4005209
I honestly think it's a huge oversight. Especially with the OTR/Tenacity changes.
They said they'd revert all the perk changes made with the anti-tunnel/slug system and just… didn't revert these two?
The thing is, they DID go over it. They looked at the perk changes and decided to revert only two of them: Borrowed Time and Babysitter. There is simply no way that they missed OTR and Tenacity.
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@solidgamer44 said:
Ngl I can't tell anymore if its incompetence or actually a sneaky deceptive way to get these changes in to nerf survivors, at this point it's exactly like the mori situation where they were gonna make something like a baseline unbreakable for the longest time along with the mori change but we still haven't gotten anything like that.
Crazy how these things happen over and over again, it's not just this but other things too.
It's intentional.
They didn't forget to un-nerf the regression perks that were impacted by the hook incentives, and while I figured there was still some weird way they just 'forgot' to do the same for the survivor side, they did cancel two perk buffs, so they did go over this.
They consciously decided to keep the survivor nerfs.
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@ThatRyanB said:
In addition, I wanted to confirm that I've seen the comments in here about Off The Record. I appreciate y'all being open about your thoughts on it. Rest assured, I've pulled together this feedback and am sharing it with the team.
Ryan, I do want to know how this happened, and I wager more people do. It's not like they forgot to untangle the perk changes from the held-back anti-tunnel/slug changes, since the regression nerfs were reverted.
How is it that it's specifically the survivor side's perks that carried this mistake, and not the killer side's?
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@oecrophy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4004361#Comment_4004361
Except it has remained the most effective tactic
It only works against weak or unwilling-to-learn player … too greedy, too over-aggressive, and not paying attention to macro. against people with some game sense who don’t overextend, the strategy falls apart.
and the moment we balance around players who don’t want to learn or develop macro to counter tunneling, you’d have to buff almost every killer to keep up at higher mmr lobbies. survivors would like that even less. (not that is evry time needed, but it is the tool to counter over-aggressive and to greedy gameplay - otherwise survivors have a freebie there. What happens then we saw @ the last ptb )
Many would rather go “come to me, killer, I’ll troll” or “I’ll slam the gen right in your face, I don’t care.” Those are survivor misplays; you shouldn’t balance the game around that.
once rotations, some basic gameplay, and teamplay are on point, the strategy falls apart. (soloq need some more info at this point)
but..
just play the game a bit more then 70 hours in +4 years (thats just no time in dbd - and mybe not surv only) and u will learn some counterplay.
( i mean.. something like.. A simple ping wheel would already do wonders for soloQ newbies. Also a hud imrpovement.. cue that roughly color-codes hook distance per teammate .. just highlight the closest and second closest. someting like this)
It only works against weak or unwilling-to-learn player
You have failed to illustrate this in any way, shape or form.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4004951#Comment_4004951
That isn't a requirement.
So what is?
Because ultimately, the label of 'anti-tunnel' is just one that we have invented as a community. It's never been any official designation.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4004940#Comment_4004940
Are you really trying to argue that OTR isn't an anti-tunnel perk?
Where in the description is it designated as such?
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4004696#Comment_4004696
"Sure, that happens occasionally, with a ton of risk. If they pull it off, good for them. Having difficult to pull off actions that carry risk/reward are fine."
How am I supposed to interpret the above sentences, if you aren't literally saying that weaponizing OTR is fine because it's difficult to pull off, and has risk/reward?
And I've already said that perks having endurance effects is bad, because recently unhooked survivors should not be encouraged to run towards the killer. That is not the intention of anti-tunnel.
Current OTR is way healthier for the game because it actually helps a recently unhooked survivor to actually escape a chase from a killer, which is what anti-tunnel should be doing. Current OTRE is also much better for scenarios where the killer is tunneling off the hook, because previous OTR could just get the endurance effect removed during the basekit endurance timeframe.
That is not the intention of anti-tunnel.
Where does it say OTR is an anti-tunnel perk?
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4004900#Comment_4004900
This isn't that, though, that's my point.
The current state of Tenacity isn't what it was on the PTB. You could still crawl and recover while running Tenacity on the PTB.
What you're describing there did happen to Off The Record, but Tenacity seems to have inherited a completely new nerf that wasn't there before. That's why I'm saying that it seems like an oversight - it might not be, obviously, but it does smell like the new auto-recover system isn't playing nice with Tenacity or something.
Either way, it should be adjusted. Tenacity without crawling recovery is just too weak, even with the aura block added on top.The current state of Tenacity isn't what it was on the PTB. You could still crawl and recover while running Tenacity on the PTB.
Yeah, but that's because that part was moved over to basekit. You could crawl with and without Tenacity, that's why it was removed from Tenacity. But they rolled that basekitting back but didn't bother to reinstate it on Tenacity.
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@jesterkind said:
Wait, did they remove the ability to crawl and recover? I've not been in-game to check this all out yet.
Based on the way the patch notes were written, I assumed the two changes listed were in addition to that effect remaining. It almost seems like an oversight or bug to take away the crawl-and-recover feature- maybe it isn't playing well with their new automatic recovery system?
After all, they didn't take that away on the PTB, it was just made basekit. This isn't even a lingering nerf that doesn't need to be there in the new context of the patch, it's a new nerf that wasn't there before.If it was intentional, it should be reverted, that is just a nerf instead of a sidegrade.
It is either intentional, or the biggest mess-up since the Chandler stream.
Because they did take care to remove the nerfs to gen regression that were offsetting the unique hook bonuses. So it's not like they're not aware that they had to revert some perk changes to account for the fact that the tunnel/slug reworks were held back. They just chose not to do it for survivors.
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@Zakon05 said:
Wait they went through with the OTR nerf? I thought for sure that would be reverted.
I initially thought they'd just forgotten that the perk rebalancing was part of the tunnel/slug overhaul, but…
They did make sure to hold back the gen regression nerfs that were compensating basekit gen regression buffs, so they really just kicked survivors while they're down.
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THEY HELD BACK THE TUNNEL REWORK BUT WENT AHEAD WITH THE OTR NERF ANYWAY!?
Is this a joke?
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4004273#Comment_4004273
That's an entirely different argument from 'you can deter tunnelling by just outplaying harder'.
No. It isn’t. When u expect game by force discourge effective style by whatever reason, u have to provide meaningful compensation. Otherwise this discouragement should come from opponent.
Why not? This has been the game's standard for ages. On both sides, 'most effective game styles' have been nerfed repeatedly. Why is tunnelling the one exception?
Heal meta back again, Gen rush still exist.Tunneling isn’t special and was already nerfed as well by perks and base kit BT. Moreover, compate to 5 to 6 patches current gen rush much more stronger, because every counterplay in terms of perks were triple nerfed. This effectiveness was nerfed from both sides to the state it requires more skill than hiding in bush or bringing mori offering. The game’s standard actually subtly changed. It’s a drastic difference from old play style pace and current one
It doesn’t mean gen rush and heal isn’t the most effectiv strats despite continuous “nerfs” (at least because majority of the nerfs was reverted) still. Because they are the most effective play style anyway. Same should stay with tunneling. U don’t punish effective approach because other side don’t like it. Because they would never like effectiveness from their opponent
It will take a meaning to punish specific style if it
- Causing many technical issues to the game
- Denying skill expression from other side
- Counterplay isn’t provided at all
- It kills interactive part of the game
So please, don’t even try to put stealth here again. U stll can do stealth, but your opponent has an optional counterplay now, so u can’t do 4. thing. I already answered on this. U still can do stealth effectively as well, it is just became as harder as resetting, or tunneling .
When I want system discourage my play, I go to Bloodborne, Silent Hill 2 RE, Resident Evil. When I want being discouraged by player (or discourge myself) I play multiplayer.
I still want to get answer why I have to be discouraged by logical and effective strat from game and not player. By “why” - I don’t mean talking about 9 years of repetitive mistake that brought us to this dialogue.
No. It isn’t.
Yes, it is. Your initial argument is that you can deter tunnelling by just outplaying them. When I point out that that isn't deterring tunnelling at all, since this outplay would affect its alternatives more, claiming that the PTB (Which wasn't mentioned in either your or my argument) does not provide an alternative is a complete non-sequitur. We weren't talking about the PTB, we were talking about the current gamestate.
Heal meta back again
That's disingenuous, because it's a different one. Old one was a self-heal meta, this one is an altruistic healing meta. Just because both of them involve healing doesn't mean they're the same.
Gen rush still exist
Once again, in a different form. Folks used to group up with Prove Thyself and it got nerfed. Folks used to slam BNPs, they got nerfed.
Yes, the things that are currently in the game are not the things that got removed. They also happen to not be the things we're talking about.
Tunneling isn’t special and was already nerfed as well by perks and base kit BT.
Except it has remained the most effective tactic since the game's inception, copping some nerfs (And a buff) in 6.1. Since then, in the span of three years, it has been nerfed twice more, with DS being brought back to 5 seconds, and the release of Shoulder the Burden, and it has also been buffed once more with DS being nerfed back to 4 seconds. These are slap-on-the-wrist changes that have done nothing to change the game at all. Tunnelling remains effectively undisturbed and still comfortably sits on high as it has for 9 years.
It doesn’t mean gen rush and heal isn’t the most effectiv strats despite continuous “nerfs” (at least because majority of the nerfs was reverted) still. Because they are the most effective play style anyway. Same should stay with tunneling.
Critical distinction between the two, though: Survivors have to stay alive and do the gens as fast as possible, they physically do not have any alternatives. Tunnelling does have an alternative, because there's no mandate to make the game a 3v1 as fast as possible. It is currently the most effective strategy, but that doesn't mean it has to be. It is perfectly possible to make a game where it is less advantageous for the killer to make the game a 3v1 as fast as possible.
U don’t punish effective approach because
other sidedon’t like it.Except we do and we already have.
U stll can do stealth, but your opponent has an optional counterplay now
They always had counterplay. It's not like hiding was insurmountable at all. To go by your own rules:
- It did not cause technical issues
- It did not deny skill expression
- It did have counterplay
- It did not kill interaction
And no, hide-and-seek is not 'no interaction'.
U still can do stealth effectively as well
Buuuut, if the killer picks up any of their plethora of new intel perks, you do get punished extremely severely, which has effectively deterred stealth as a gameplay plan. We have not seen anything nearly this aggressive towards tunnelling. By argumentation that you, yourself have employed, the changes to tunnelling have not shifted the needle at all.
Survivor meta has been stirred up and reshaped over and over again, while tunnelling has remained static for almost all of 9 years of DBD.
I still want to get answer why I have to be discouraged by logical and effective strat from game and not player.
Because it -can't- be discouraged by the player. If you can beat a tunnelling killer, you can beat that killer even harder if they're not tunnelling. That is something you have effectively argued in the past.
So how is the player supposed to discourage tunnelling?
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4004267#Comment_4004267
To discourage tunnelling, the tactic must instil in the killer a realisation that the game would've gone over better for them if they hadn't tunnelled
But it wouldn’t. U don’t have this alternative. Base kits from ptb wasn’t enough. U still didn’t create good incentive
If killer discouraged by game system only for being deprived of most effective game style artificially, hence no point in PvP. It should be single player then. When I want system discourage my play, I go to Bloodborne, Silent Hill 2 RE, Resident Evil. When I want being discouraged by player (or discourge myself) I play multiplayer.
But it wouldn’t. U don’t have this alternative. Base kits from ptb wasn’t enough. U still didn’t create good incentive
That's an entirely different argument from 'you can deter tunnelling by just outplaying harder'.
If killer discouraged by game system only for being deprived of most effective game style artificially, hence no point in PvP.
Why not? This has been the game's standard for ages. On both sides, 'most effective game styles' have been nerfed repeatedly. Why is tunnelling the one exception?
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4004161#Comment_4004161
the game just needs adjustments to discourage those who do.
Discourage way of effective play and outplaying opponent? If tunnel on 5-4 gen happened, it was a mismatch from the start.
Okay. I can understand this complaints towards S tier killers. But it is S tier and u work with S tier only then. U don’t do global change.
So, discourge… discouraging… So, punishment? How it works. Hm…. Somehow I was recently hardtunneled by Nemesis. It took 3 gen. Without anti tunnel perks, and he proxy camped me even. Not a lot of sources, my teammates escaped with 2. It was a tie and he was humbled in EG showing his salt after me saying GG to my teammates and regretting I didn’t loop him better.
Conclusions:— Was he discouraged? Yes
— Was he punished for early tunnel? Yes
— Was it fun for me at least? Yes.
So, it turns out you can have all of this already just by playing better than opponent. Wow… Sounds reasonable. Why responsibility from discouraging my opponent should be shifted from my team on game system?
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/KJBU8BY2FY1D/img-1141.jpeg
Don’t u think making this “discourage” artificial can heavily backfire?
My whole comment was erased unfortunately, but I think it’s enough here. Just more few words.
I’m also average player. Less than 1k, mid MMR, 50/50 players with solo Q incline, but had experience of SFW. Don’t play S tier killers. 40% -50 ER, 60-65% KR. I also work and study, play for fun. Sounds average and ideal of what BHVR were looking to. Why I am being average player being spoke out from you and u say u speak for my fun? Because it’s a lie. I don’t find your position neither fair or fun.
Turns out your “average” player is only player who agree with you. You don’t count player as “average” when he talks like this:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/WOH05YZPIR5E/img-1142.jpeg
— Was he discouraged? Yes
No, because the thing you did to 'punish his tunnelling' would have discouraged his alternatives the same way.
Whatever discourages tunnelling must discourage specifically tunnelling, and not just be a blanket beats-all strategy. For example, just slamming gens doesn't make tunnelling less attractive, since it has the same impact (Or even greater) on non-tunnelling strategies, despite the fact that it does reduce the success rate of tunnelling.
To discourage tunnelling, the tactic must instil in the killer a realisation that the game would've gone over better for them if they hadn't tunnelled. Simply running him for longer doesn't do that, and in fact accomplishes the opposite, if these forums are to be taken as a barometer. Plenty of killers on here have stated that long chases and short gens compel them to tunnel. So taking them for longer chases and shorter gens would then likely increase tunnelling, not decrease it.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4004196#Comment_4004196
The reality was that the anti-slugging changes were a HUGE deal, and we had people telling they were “barely noticeable” because they wanted to downplay the changes, to make the changes more likely to get implemented into the game.
Okay, but now you're just relitigating the case with me, I was just pointing out an issue with your argument, that's all.
@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4004192#Comment_4004192
This has been the way I have seen if for a long time which is why I struggle to understand why such hate towards slugging but nothing towards being hooked. hook timer is about 70sec per phase I think? that's 140sec on hook in total if no one frees me. If slug timer is too long just set it so its 140 sec same as hooks? it still means hooks are better because 3 hooks and the survivor is eliminated but doesn't mean 3 downs and they are eliminated.
Hooks have been rebalanced over time, though, since they were extremely exploitable too, and slugging circumvents all of that, so there's a good reason hooks aren't as disliked. Plus, hooks are part of the intended gameplay loop, which slugging isn't, which I wager does play part in public perception.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4004192#Comment_4004192
I never said the anti-slugging was barely noticeable. I was criticizing someone else’s logic, because they simultaneously wanted us to believe the anti-slugging was super important for survivors but also barely noticeable for killers.
I know.
And that's what my response was also referencing. It can matter very little for killers while still mattering a lot for survivors.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4004171#Comment_4004171
But it wasn’t a small chance. Survivors zoomed so quickly while slugged, that if a killer was forced to slug a survivor to chase a teammate, there was a big chance the slugged survivor would be long gone by the time the killer got back.
And the fact that Deerstalker got reworked, showed that BHVR wanted slugged survivors to be extremely difficult to find, which means killers would be punished for any slugging at all, even if the survivors forced the killer to slug.
But it wasn’t a small chance.
That's not what you were saying in the post I replied to.
@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4004171#Comment_4004171
does this apply to hooks too? a hooked survivor generally has nothing to play for. atleast a slug can crawl to the hatch or out the gates, that more to play for than being stuck on a hook hoping someone unhooks you.
Technically, yes, though I'd never thought about it like that. Hooks don't last as long though, fortunately, and they're a critical part of the gameplay flow.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4004143#Comment_4004143
If “90 seconds is a LONG time”, then anti-slugging doesn’t need to happen. Why should BHVR implement an anti-slugging solution that would majorly upset killers, but would “barely help” survivors at all?
A slugged survivor generally has nothing to play for, so giving them a chance, even if it's a slim one, will make a large difference for the player experience.
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4004081#Comment_4004081
So you're going to reject a perfectly valid question because of a grudge you have with me personally?
- I answered on your question, but I’m pretty sure it wont satisfy u, because your own grudge interferes with adequate dialogue much more, why I simply avoid waste of my emotions on such people
- U rejected valid ask to prove your words by video of your gameplay and still aggressively avoid it by asking more questions (while mine left unanswered), playing in words equilibria
- U excessively overestimate validity and quality of your questions, because all of them rhetorical
I think I have enough reasons for finding you pretty disrespectful person, and it is definitely better just ignore you as much as you ignore something I ask about. Yep
I answered on your question, but I’m pretty sure it wont satisfy u, because your own grudge interferes with adequate dialogue
I asked a very reasonable question and you launched into a tirade against me, personally. It's not my grudge that's interfering here.
You also answered the question to someone else, in another post that you did not @ me in, and you didn't quote the post or refer to it at all. I assume that you are referring to this:
Providing daily rank mode with limited time for few hours in peak hours can help without drastically affecting queues if code it properly.
And I actually think that this is a decent idea, though I have my reservations about time-gating it. It is true that this would funnel people a bit more and help to filter out the try-hards a bit better, but it'd also block out people that might want to play more competitive matches simply because the ranked mode's timetable doesn't line up with their own.
I am actually significantly less concerned about the idea of reworking everything, because if this ranked mode were to prove that it requires it, then it's something that would need to happen regardless of the existence of a ranked mode, so it wouldn't be any extra work-load specific to ranked mode.
If it's broken, it's broken, and needs to be fixed whether it's in ranked or not.
I don't think this would solve the entire issue, and I don't think it'd preclude the need for a tunnel-specific balancing address, but I do think it's worth a shot.
U rejected valid ask to prove your words by video of your gameplay
One singular person's experience isn't proof. The premise of your demand itself is faulty, and it's ridiculous to expect that anyone is obligated to dance to whatever whims you have. Not to mention that it was a non-sequitur to my argumentation.
U excessively overestimate validity and quality of your questions, because all of them rhetorical
You tend to get a lot of questions that are rhetorical in nature when someone is challenging your rhetoric, yes.
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4004067#Comment_4004067
On other post I asked u to share with your PTB gameplay. So I can at least understand what u comprehend by “balanced” PTB incentives and fair pace of match between players with same skill. But u dodged, ignoring the fact that my offer was the first. When a demand is met with a counter-demand in an attempt to avoid having to answer for words, my desire to discuss anything with such people is reduced to zero. I already told u - I’m not going to invest in comments to discuss something with u
When my words getting neglected as soon as it stops being convenient to answer on it, I simply avoid to talk. Because more words from me would be neglected, and more answers from u would be rain down on my head
But just to say - when u cancel any proposes of actually meaningful QoL due to existence of bottom of fanbase because they are toxic, at the same time demanding other QoL for the same bottom tier like Solo Q who sandbaggs each other, constantly DC and usually even don’t run meta despite their vulnerable position, nothing actually meaningful in so called QoL will appear
So you're going to reject a perfectly valid question because of a grudge you have with me personally?
But just to say - when u cancel any proposes of actually meaningful QoL due to existence of bottom of fanbase because they are toxic
I haven't shot anything down here, I asked how you want to accomplish it. @cogsturning highlights a very real concern with self-selection: What's to stop a killer (or a swiffer, for that matter) from dropping into the casual queue, kitted to the gills and sweating their behinds off for a landslide win?
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4003967#Comment_4003967
If the game matchmakes players with killer who can slug or tunnel on 5 gens the player, it basically means this matchmakes never should happen. Because it can be everything - skill difference, extremely bad RGN, but not the fault of the player. If every survivor goes down in few seconds of the chase, do really player who playing other role have to spend his time on this match longer than needed? Why responsibility of the game provide fair challenge and good conditions is transferred on the shoulders of simple player? Artificially making match longer, where u clearly don’t experience anything except of huge disappointment from the game MMR?
For you, it's a trash tactic, for others, a valid strategy. Players aren't informed whether they're playing bad solo or against someone else. Everyone knows that numbers prevail, and so in an asymmetrical game, the four-player side will always have an initial advantage. Everyone knows there's only one killer in the game, and effective survivors are the only ones who truly control the game's balance. Killers are also well aware of the number of second-chance perks that give a second wind literally if their opponent loses, and they also may consider this unfair and trash tactic. They may consider it unfair when survivors hides for 10 minutes, deliberately avoiding any interaction for the sake of the hatch, just because sitting in a bush requires nothing rather than being in chase.
They may think of trash tactics as gen rushes when they've completed a standard chase in a minute, and they're down to 3-2 gens, after wich players like u gonna remind them they have to play "not according to trash tactics."
From perspective of survivor , I don’t feel anything in matches where half of the game I press m1 and leave. Because every match where hooks were spreading, it was either player stomping anyway and making unpleasant match even more longer, or killer struggled from the start and outcome is still evident. As survivor player, my personal fun is getting it through tight interaction with killer and when I feel I can be punished for mistakes, so game incentives playing me more careful. As survivor player, I have fun in efficiency and short outcomes, so the issue is when I play efficient, killers can’t allow himself to spread hooks, he’ll more likely lose no matter skill, because micro + macro is overperforming pure micro play. My fun in challenge that force me to learn loop better, but who I am to ask for my fun, indeed.It's time to understand that what you consider trash and a lack of player empathy is very relative. The fact that you're trying to tie game outcomes and victories to the perception of player personality is trash for me, for example. It's trash when, instead of finally forcing BHVR to balance killers’ abilities and make the average game so that even a calm player doesn't have to face someone who's truly playing to win, they're blaming one side or the other. If, damn it, people started tunneling, and it's been going on for nine years, and it's a widespread phenomenon, then there must be some sense to it. And instead of trying to fight it like a plague, it would be a good idea to start trying to make the game evolve around it.
Because if you have a sweat lobby and a chill lobby the sweats will just go to the chill lobby and smash the chill players.
This argument is truly tiresome. Instead of even trying to create a satisfying environment for players, they're forced to come up with the worst-case scenario as excuse. As if the same thing isn't happening now. As if people don't write from time to time about some sweats and how annoying they are to the average player. Maybe you should at least try to do something for separating them, instead of justifying lack of actions that some player might go and satisfy their ego by playing against less experienced players. Maybe just try. Well, or, in principle, then it’s time to stop complaining that some player comes into the lobby to play by the rules of soulless efficiency, and not your mood at all. But in the end, we choose the third option - to complain and demand primitive solutions in the form of calling entire part of player base trash and toxic. Classic.
Maybe you should at least try to do something for separating them
What do you suggest?
Because I don't think self-sorting is going to do the trick when this community also had bubbas focusing black characters.
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@VibranToucan said:
The ration of Survivor to killer is roughly 1:4. Only Survivor perks would realistically get buffed.
I mean, that's pretty fixable. If BHVR just shortlists a number of perks that are on their radar and have a separate vote for killer perks and survivor perks, buffing the top two or three from each category, you'd get an equal distribution of buffs.
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4003805#Comment_4003805
Prove it, then. Prove that no one had a balanced match.
Nuh. It doesn't work like this. I first explained why not, u tried to dodge. I asked for record prooves first. Your train were missed. But don’t worry, as I remember I had a showcase of me playing against Crasue in solo, where both killer and two other of my teammates were good. The third one DC, but new “fair” system made it responsibility of a killer, so yes.
But I’ll show it when u will show your own.
You didn't understand a thing I wrote, did you?
Do you understand the concept of a hypothetical?
It seems u just lack of words now and only thing that left is rhetorical speech. I don’t enjoy hypothetical speech on this forum, because no matter side, this “hypothesis” always ignores ideal conditions - of good player and balanced RGN existence. U yourself ignore it, because tried to compare tunneling with that weird perk. Because it seems u genuinely believe they are equal in so called ideal conditions. So on this stage, is just a sentiment.
Conveniently omitting 15 seconds of doing nothing first. It's also hardly the first of its kind with a directly comparable perk in Deadline, which no one picks because it's terrible.
This 15 seconds later last for more than just one gen. I were doing this when killer were using deadlock/grim embrace to dodge my time lose lol, so again, did u even played PTB yourself releasing full potential of new builds? U can finish two gens while this perk is active. It can ask 15 seconds in duo and 45 alone to do gen in good conditions. U can finish the gen before toolbox will be over in not really ideal conditions, but the most important- u can lessen the risky time staying on dangerous gen killer patrolling . Same with autodidact. U can “waste” 15 seconds while u waiting your teammate to find u through empathic connection and after this u can get the easiest 5 stacks in your life. I simply warned my duo about me coming to his part of the map and he was ready for healing me in ridiculous speed. The way u are comparing actually good perk to deadline, again, show your great love of exaggeration in your own favor, using false equivalence as cheap way to dodge argument.
That's shifting the goalposts
No, u just wish to ignore good stuff u already have because it doesn't correlate with your sentiment, at the same time pointing “BUT BASE POP”. So. The only reason while this pop is still used by killers and it considers as meta because u don't have alternative and numerous times many meta gen regression was nerfed, except of dms. Because survivors complained on low efficiency and tunneling at same time. But when tunneling completely gone, this pop wasn't returned to at least base state even. It's not even 40% of current progression, even when u combine base kit with slot u wasted. Nothing actually were compensated, it was cheap placebo. But for killers nothing in their builds actually changed. No meta shift - just acceptance of L situation when u are about to face interesting opponents, because now the only u can compete against is survivors who 100% play worse than u. Equality factor gone completely when it was already on thin edge.
Why is it the standard on these forums that killer players can just pull whatever out of where-the-sun-don't-shine and survivors have to fight tooth and nail to be allowed to have an opinion?
Were u looking at your own words, when claimed already existing anti tunnel perks isn’t enough? Were u looking at your words, claiming it is so unbelievably hard to counter tunneling when I showed u my stats (which u conveniently ignored)? Nuh. Because again - it’s all killer fault. Killer is so evil he use only actual strategy that gives him chances against good players to win, killers is so evil just because they don’t believe 8 base kits over 3 is fair position, killer is so evil just because they have other sentiment. Your words are backfire heavily u rn.
I’m having more hours on survivor. I just not trying to force game evolve around bad players and I believe we already have tools, people just don’t know how to use it or messy RGN and bugs spoil it over. I’m not pure killer main, so your loud claims devaluate itself again. On ptb I played survivor mainly. On normal q I play more survivor than killer. Over two months I had around 150 matches as survivor and 50 on killer. In solo, in duo, in 3 sfw, in 4 sfw. Mainly duo and solo, but now I decided to quit solo because after 2v8 end I see more sandbagging teammates in average queue.
Tunnel will stay easy as soon as players like u spread this. U contibute yourself to this system, and even level up the tension of tribalism. I tried to speak differently - asked for actual compensation or balancing on all levels, if u really wish this approach overall gone. But as u showed, your sentiment blur the vision of reaching good tools and necessity of what we have already to play around it. So, u ask and pray for this meaningless tribalism and it’s the only way to speak with u.
As with other person above, I don’t see point to invest in such speech. GL for next.I first explained why not,
And I've argued my case. So why am I the only one that has to prove anything?
It seems u just lack of words now and only thing that left is rhetorical speech. I don’t enjoy hypothetical speech on this forum, because no matter side, this “hypothesis” always ignores ideal conditions - of good player and balanced RGN existence. U yourself ignore it, because tried to compare tunneling with that weird perk. Because it seems u genuinely believe they are equal in so called ideal conditions. So on this stage, is just a sentiment.
I asked if you understand what a hypothetical is, and I think the answer, as can be deduced from this response, is a hard 'no'.
The point of the hypothetical was not to make any point about tunnelling itself but about your argument in defense of it. Your rant about 'ignoring ideal conditions' is also baseless, considering I didn't stipulate any conditions at all. So if you want to take that hypothetical in the absolute ideal conditions, you are free to do so.
You are still going to have a whale of a time trying to convince anyone that bringing a perk that instantly kills one survivor at the start of the match, for free, is considered 'risky'. No matter how ideal the rest of the conditions are.
That's my point: The 'risky' you're arguing is entirely, 100% without any argumentative value.
This 15 seconds later last for more than just one gen.
It's 90 seconds. Gens are 90 seconds. It lasts one gen. Yes, you can save some time, but you don't blink from gen to gen, so by the time you hit the second gen, it's gone.
The way u are comparing actually good perk to deadline, again, show your great love of exaggeration in your own favor, using false equivalence as cheap way to dodge argument.
Just as a quick reminder, Deadline does the same thing.
The whole thing is a massive departure anyway, because the anti-tunnel changes are separate from the new perk. If the new perk is too strong, that has no bearing on the anti-tunnel system.
No
Yes, you were talking about genrushing and healing, and you swapped to chase builds.
Were u looking at your own words, when claimed already existing anti tunnel perks isn’t enough?
Except you agree with me, since you assert that, even with anti-tunnel perks in mind, tunnelling is still by far the stronger option. So these anti-tunnel perks aren't functioning as deterrents.
Were u looking at your words, claiming it is so unbelievably hard to counter tunneling when I showed u my stats (which u conveniently ignored)?
Firstly, your stats were posted in response to someone else, not to me. Secondly, the absolute best you can muster is a 52% escape rate, which is pretty damn close to being balanced. Which you then immediately tackled out with solo queue going down to 41% escape rate, which is severely underpowered.
So you are arguing of some kind of severely survivor-sided situation where the best you were able to muster was just a fair shot, and it scaled down to being horribly disadvantaged.
I'm sure killer players are trembling.
Because again - it’s all killer fault.
Again, you are arguing with a voice in your head, not with me.
asked for actual compensation or balancing on all levels
Except you also dismiss, out of hand, any possibility of the balance not being what you insist it is. You are putting yourself in a position of solitary arbitration of what the game's balance is and should be.
Others may disagree.
The stats certainly don't reflect your position, and you have nothing else to present but personal experience and anecdote, which don't constitute proof.
If you wanted to prove that these systems would ruin the game, they would've had to have been in play for longer to actually gather relevant data, but they were pulled too quickly to do so.
This is not going anywhere. Ultimately, tunnelling is the sacred cow of a very vocal contingent of the forum, and no matter what proposal is made to combat it, it will always be shot down by those who insist on tunnelling.
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4003794#Comment_4003794
Yeah, that quote doesn't say what you say it does. Again, you are fighting out some kind of grudge you have with me and you're having an argument with a voice in your head that you attribute to me. But it's nothing
Ihave said.
U can manipulate over and over this statement. U still trying to manipulate with “it’s semantic” about risk, while u compare unreliable strat A to reliable strat B, after which put comparison with imaginable perks that god damn it kill whole survivor from the start. Every of your sentence is exaggerate play. Of course when u exaggerating tunneling risk won’t matter for u. Because in proportion instead of 50/50 or 60/40 to tunnel strategy u see 90/10. U yourself fighting with your own grudge, because didn’t have experience of play where tunnel doesn’t secure wins. It’s your own sentiment here fighting with “risk” definition.
Now, such numbers are obviously extreme and unworkable, but it shows that the premise for the PTB is perfectly workable.It’s not +15% to base actual pop kit. Because it’s current progression. As well as nerfed eruption. U ignore “current”, because it’s convinient. However, the issue of OTR base kit, because alongside with it, u get additional buffs, like no collision, prolonged haste, aura read, free stealth u so craved for. It’s at least 2 perks in one base kit + additional collision buff. Same with antislug. U got overbuffed unbreakable, alongside with nerfing any track tools of slugged survivors with tenacity base kit? Compensation? No compensation. We fool around like base kit is so broken that other perks deserved to be nerfed to the ground.
Survivors don’t have equip their meta to counter killer play style anymore, but killer still have to. So, gen rush or full chase while killer stuck with same and even nerfed version. So, buffed efficiency is clearly evident, your sentiment tried to deny it because somehow your sentiment see +25% to speed boost, blocked gens, 8 base kits equal to three base kit and side nerfs. The thing u even validate 3 base kits as 8 one AND additional system that decintives valid way of play for win and equal it just shows how u yourself stuck in delusional prejudice.
If u actually genuinely believe such changes are “balanced” - prove me. Send me the video on google disk where u win against survivors on the same level as u in PTB. Survivors good enough to last longer than 10 seconds in chase. Who can compete and know how to split up for efficiency.The problem, nor you not other people who supported this PTB had such games. Because u either didn’t play it, or were fooled by absence of MMR constantly facing people who didn’t played normally even. On paper u just manipulate with 25% of current progression pop number and play with it like it fair compensation. Which isn't, if u aren’t playing against potatoes.
Do it. Show me the balanced and fair game u had in PTB.
U can manipulate over and over this statement. U still trying to manipulate with “it’s semantic” about risk, while u compare unreliable strat A to reliable strat B, after which put comparison with imaginable perks that god damn it kill whole survivor from the start. Every of your sentence is exaggerate play. Of course when u exaggerating tunneling risk won’t matter for u. Because in proportion instead of 50/50 or 60/40 to tunnel strategy u see 90/10. U yourself fighting with your own grudge, because didn’t have experience of play where tunnel doesn’t secure wins. It’s your own sentiment here fighting with “risk” definition.
You didn't understand a thing I wrote, did you?
Do you understand the concept of a hypothetical?
It’s not +15% to base actual pop kit. Because it’s current progression.
Pop Goes the Weasel is also current progression. And it has been for over three years now.
If u actually genuinely believe such changes are “balanced” - prove me.
Why don't you prove that they were unbalanced?
Why is it the standard on these forums that killer players can just pull whatever out of where-the-sun-don't-shine and survivors have to fight tooth and nail to be allowed to have an opinion?
It's the exact dogma that I mentioned earlier.
The problem, nor you not other people who supported this PTB had such games.
Prove it, then. Prove that no one had a balanced match.
@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4003794#Comment_4003794
You mean the one where you need to land 6 great skill checks while repairing a gen while injured? And then it gets you boosted healing speed for one heal?
The reason u talk about road life instead of one, two, three just shows how u were poorly acknowledged with PTB actually. Stacking this with hyperfocus or aitodidact were giving u unbelievable boost to both heal and gen efficiency. New exhaustion perk buffed vigil and lightweight, made this combos new meta for sprint and stealth play. And because survivors weren't afraid of tunnel/slug, the build on PTB were on exploitable level without killer being able to even counter it.
The reason u talk about road life instead of one, two, three just shows how u were poorly acknowledged with PTB actually. Stacking this with hyperfocus or aitodidact were giving u unbelievable boost to both heal and gen efficiency.
Conveniently omitting 15 seconds of doing nothing first. It's also hardly the first of its kind with a directly comparable perk in Deadline, which no one picks because it's terrible.
New exhaustion perk buffed vigil and lightweight, made this combos new meta for sprint and stealth play.
That's shifting the goalposts.
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4003762#Comment_4003762
”Maybe, but no compared”.
— Compared to what? To lose? Would person consciously choose constantly losing? Unlikely. Did situation forced him to commit to strategy B? So did situation forced him to choose for getting a result? Yes.”Compared to” - is not the way to cancel the risk of whole situation.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/4APDBMJTBVH7/img-1103.jpeg
Relatively risk indeed doesn’t matter. Because u compare. Technically risk will stay no matter of what.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/0R2ZGYG4ODD9/img-1106.jpeg
U can’t say risk doesn’t exist at all just because other situation is 100% failure. It This may diminishe the significance of the risk compared to a complete loss. However, people rarely choose to lose if they're competing. Therefore, scenario "A" doesn't exist in principle. No “Strategy A” if u don’t want to lose. It’s only Strategy B with uncertain outcome
The term 'risky' is always comparative.
What you are arguing for, with the absolute probabilistic sense of the word 'risk', is pure semantics. It is unusable in any kind of argumentation. You can't defend tunnelling with the claim that it is 'risky' so long as your definition of 'risky' is that it doesn't have a 100% win rate, because even the most overpowered stuff in the game would qualify as being 'risky' with that definition.
Having a perk that just instantly kills one survivor for free upon loading in would be considered 'risky' under your argumentation.
Do you understand?
This discussion isn't going anywhere so long as you're arguing on this concept of the term 'risky'.
@tes said:
I specifically said that I'm not concerned about the balancing outcome of tunnelling, by which I mean that I don't care whether it's OP or not, I'm concerned about the gameplay impact, not whether or not it's winning too many matches. That's not the same as saying that I don't care about balance at all. If indeed it proves to be too much of a nerf for killers over all, then compensatory buffs would be in order, absolutely. (And need I remind you, there were compensatory buffs included in the PTB, which I've spoken positively of already.)
You contradict yourself.
I'm concerned about the gameplay impactnot whether or not it's winning too many matches.
But this IS gameplay impact. U can’t ignore stuff, that literally IMPACT.
If indeed it proves to be too much of a nerf for killers over all, then compensatory buffs would be in order, absolutely
My post noted the reason of PTB buffs wasn’t enough. Because nerfed 3 perks on base kit + nerfed all optional regression + limitation of HUD info + complete remove of tunneling on a level it makes no sense for gameplay were provided at the same time with buffed gen rush and heal thanks to new perk + 8 base kits for survivor + rework of optional perks that buffs already OP base kit + side bonuses when literally losing for additional % to the repair bonuses. In comparison this “buffs” means nothing, they even don’t compensate anything. No one cares about positives when this “positives” were nerfed compare to optional perks, this optional perks became irrelevant because they also got nerfed, while other side got second chances on top of second chances for doing nothing in the trial but losing.
About quoting:
“Stop treating it as objective opinion when it’s built around of mindless punishments and lasy buffs.
And
“You neglect high play”
No. I'm not too concerned about the balancing outcome of tunnelling. I want tunnelling gone
Except it's not a 'gamble' if it's the only way to win
So, talking about risks, u were continuously admitting that now - it’s only way to win on level of play when u compete against people who knows how to play this game. U admit that, but u talking this strategy should gone. Alongside with this, u never provided alternative. 3 NERFED base kits from PTB while u removing the only way to get a win - not the buff nor the compensation. U never talked under this thread about actual compensation after removing strategy u find problematic. Not u, not BHVR, not every other person provided meaningful compensation to this. And when people on this forum were talking about making at least nerfed scourge hook as base kit, a lot of people who were talking about “positives” tried to find any excuse to find 12% of remote regression as bad idea that’s not a fair. So, don’t even try to convince me that people like u were actually trying to balance stuff around, the only thing u wanted is tunneling gone and no compensation for it. So the issue isn’t in tunneling being bad in core principle. Tunneling is problematic for you because it’s the strategy people use for win. The win factor is the only thing that actually makes tunneling so unsatisfying for survivors.
Maybe, if your opinion were built around providing actual alternatives of tunneling besides just turning it off - it would be meaningful dialogue. But because the only thing u were accepting is 3 cheap base kits as “positives”, u indeed just want to make it only harder for one side and simple for other.
U can’t reduce tunneling until u’ll provide meaningful alternative of this strategy. And u don’t really wanna, because genuinely believe in tunneling being unbelievably hard to counter even with existence of strong perks or already existing base kits. When u’ll provide meaningful base kit alternative for killers to base kit anti - tunnel, it would be a talk about balance.
What to say, if decisive strike were severely “nerfed” by your opinion, when the only difference in 1 sec of stun and that u can’t use anti tunnel on endgame where tunneling doesn’t affect to so called gameplay and it’s already evident who won.
Tunneling can meaningfully gone only in one case - where this game will stop be 1 vs 4 or survivors will be completely deprived of the right to deny someone down in chase by second chance perks or save from team. Which is straightforward impossible, because u can’t forbid person to take a hit even when u remove collision, ptb proved it. Until survivors can deny hook pressure by gen rush or team play, tunneling would stay as most viable strategy. And because game doesn’t provide other meaningful ways to compete against gen efficiency from good teams, people will continue to commit to itYou contradict yourself.
No I don't.
But this IS gameplay impact. U can’t ignore stuff, that literally IMPACT.
Winning or losing barely impact it. You can argue that there's incentives involved with it, but I'm not staring myself blind on what the results screen says at the end of the match, I'm focused on what happens within the match. And in that regard, tunnelling is wrecking gameplay.
You can win against a tunnelling killer and still have a terrible time compared to losing against a killer that doesn't tunnel.
My post noted the reason of PTB buffs wasn’t enough.
I disagree with those too, but that's irrelevant to our current discussion.
Because nerfed 3 perks on base kit + nerfed all optional regression + limitation of HUD info + complete remove of tunneling on a level it makes no sense for gameplay were provided at the same time with buffed gen rush and heal thanks to new perk + 8 base kits for survivor + rework of optional perks that buffs already OP base kit + side bonuses when literally losing for additional % to the repair bonuses.
The nerf to regression perks is something BHVR learned from a past mistake. When killers got a basekit action speed buff, they didn't do any compensatory rebalancing to interacting perks.
Plenty of killers have expressed that they feel pigeonholed into taking gen regression. These changes basekit a portion of that gen regression, but if they didn't adjust the gen regression perks, they would stack together to create something oppressive. This is what happened with STBFL, which eventually stacked so high that it made hook rescues virtually impossible.
Stacking the basekit with the regression perk would still see an overall buff, just slightly less. However, if you decide to use something other than regression perks, the basekit buff would make the biggest impact. In this way, BHVR levels the playing field a little bit between the perks that killers complain about being forced to take, and other options. They're boosting the overall power level of all builds, while slightly tempering the boost they give to the specific builds that have been dominating the meta.
This is actually just good design.
buffed gen rush and heal thanks to new perk
You mean the one where you need to land 6 great skill checks while repairing a gen while injured? And then it gets you boosted healing speed for one heal?
I doubt it even competes with Botany. We'll Make It certainly blows it out of the water. And it certainly doesn't do anything to boost gen speeds.
nerfed 3 perks on base kit + nerfed all optional regression
8 base kits for survivor + rework of optional perks that buffs already OP base kit
No mention of the survivor basekits being nerfed versions, and the rework of Off the Record ripped off its endurance in its entirety. And unlike with the killer side of things, you can't balance them out. While Pop + Basekit is 15% higher than it used to be, OTR + Basekit is 50 seconds shorter than it used to be.
You're not looking at this level-headed at all.
About quoting:
“Stop treating it as objective opinion when it’s built around of mindless punishments and lasy buffs.
And
“You neglect high play”
No. I'm not too concerned about the balancing outcome of tunnelling. I want tunnelling goneYeah, that quote doesn't say what you say it does. Again, you are fighting out some kind of grudge you have with me and you're having an argument with a voice in your head that you attribute to me. But it's nothing I have said.
So, talking about risks, u were continuously admitting that now - it’s
onlyway to win on level of play when u compete against people who knows how to play this game. U admit that, but u talking this strategy should gone.I have made no such admission. It is a premise you have asserted. I haven't refuted it because I don't need to in order to expose a problem with your argumentation. This assertion of yours conflicts with your other assertion that tunnelling is 'risky'.
I am, in fact, more inclined to believe that tunnelling is risky than that it is the only way to win, but the point is that you can't hold both of these assertions at the same time. They are mutually exclusive.
EITHER
Tunnelling is the only avenue to a win, which makes choosing to employ it not a risky choice at all
OR
Tunnelling is risky, because you risk losing in a situation that you could otherwise win.
The reason I haven't refuted your claim that tunnelling is the only way to win at high level is because reasonably, if you choose to take the position that tunnelling is 'risky', you have to drop the assertion that tunnelling is the only way to win, yourself.
Alongside with this, u
neverprovided alternative. 3 NERFED base kits from PTB while u removing the only way to get a win - not the buff nor the compensation. U never talked under this thread about actual compensation after removing strategy u find problematic.Because this is the point where I actually reject the premise. I don't agree that tunnelling is the only way to win, and I do think that the buffs are impactful and meaningful. These naturally push the game towards more spread pressure, which is the obvious alternative to tunnelling.
Not u, not BHVR, not every other person provided meaningful compensation to this
Problem is that you are the sole arbiter of what you consider to be meaningful. So if anyone disagrees with you, then they are, to your mind, 'objectively wrong'. At which point any suggestion I make would be inherently shot down because we disagree about the level of imbalance.
After all, anything I could suggest would adhere to your definition of 'risky', and something tells me you wouldn't accept that.
What to say, if decisive strike were severely “nerfed” by your opinion, when the only difference in 1 sec of stun
As a reminder, the survivor themselves are also stunned by DS due to the animation lock. That 5 second stun amounted to roughly three seconds of distance, so cutting the stun duration by 1 second is a nerf of 33%.
That's pretty hefty. It's certainly heavier than the proposed nerf to Pop in this patch, and DS didn't have any counterbalancing basekit buffs when it got nerfed back down to stack with.
Tunneling can meaningfully gone only in one case - where this game will stop be 1 vs 4 or survivors will be completely deprived of the right to deny someone down in chase by second chance perks or save from team. Which is straightforward impossible, because u can’t forbid person to take a hit even when u remove collision, ptb proved it. Until survivors can deny hook pressure by gen rush or team play, tunneling would stay as most viable strategy.
This assertion is also distinctly untrue.
If, say, the killer got a 50% total gen progress pain res for every unique hook, and hooking a survivor twice in a row would immediately open the exit gates, you haven't done anything to nerf gen rush or team play, but tunnelling most definitely isn't the most viable strategy anymore.
Now, such numbers are obviously extreme and unworkable, but it shows that the premise for the PTB is perfectly workable. You can argue about the balance of it, but to claim that it has absolutely zero chance of succeeding is a fool's position.
You do touch upon something that is interesting though, which is prevalence of hook denial. And on that, I agree that it needs to be toned down. (Not 'second chance perks', those are tunnelling specific, no reason to nerf them) Again, similarly, I don't care about the balance outcome of rampant hook denial, I care about the gameplay aspect of it. It is awful to play against, so I want it gone. However, I also feel like I'm the only one with that opinion since it's never brought up as an issue for killers on its own merit, but always in response to survivor QoL, which is why I don't bother making suggestions with regards to it.
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4003675#Comment_4003675
But you're not
riskinganything. Even in the little blurb you pulled up, it mentions the
possibilityof something bad happening. But in the situation you describe, and the way you've construed tunnelling, it's not a possibility at all. It's a guarantee.
Gosh, what? Now we again reinventing words.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/FQR2DO9YM762/img-1101.png
Where u see guarantee of the win? It’s an attempt of securing, nothing about guarantee until u don’t see some Spirit.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/WUIJ5I5V9CXE/img-1102.jpeg
English literally foreign language for me yet it seem I know meaning of some words even better.
This game is literally in PvP genre. Your decisions SUPPOSED to be risky if your opponent able to provide counterplay. Why we even discuss it.
willhave to
I don’t. It’s not my issue this game don’t teach how to counter tunneling and majority of players struggling with it despite having perk that literally gives a minute of endurance or can take a hook stage from your teammate. Survivors already overbuffed and high level play shows it, but high neglecting of solo, problematic killer powers and people like you have a tendencyof creating false image. I invested my time to dodge it as survivor player, so I want game more challenging and provide actual competition by skill comparassion rather than blind number buffs and forbid of strategies. So both survivors and killers have to play good, not one side having cheap tool to make it harder for other because u can’t endure direct interaction against opponent. You only advise to make it easy on low level, completely neglect high one, and make everything harder for one side only. Stop treating it as objective opinion when it’s built around of mindless punishments and lasy buffs. This changes now is just suggest taking the problems that kills solo and, instead of thoroughly solving them, shifting everything onto the shoulders of players who play a completely different role. Just because “oh, I hate killer killing too fast”
I have made no such claim!
No. I'm not too concerned about the balancing outcome of tunnelling.
Oh look, it's AI…
Well guess what?
If you actually present it with the situation we're discussing, turns out it agrees that tunnelling can not reasonably be considered risky.
But just as a word of general advice: Don't rely on AI to do the thinking for you, it is brutally unintelligent.
Survivors already overbuffed and high level play shows it, but high neglecting of solo, problematic killer powers and people like you have a tendencyof creating false image.
Where's the proof that survivors are 'overbuffed' and that 'high level play shows it'? Because this is just something that keeps getting regurgitated all over the forums without anything to substantiate it.
It's always just 'this is the way I say it is and anyone who deigns to question it, is wrong'.
You only advise to make it easy on low level
Quote me.
completely neglect high one
Quote me.
and make everything harder for one side only
Quote me.
Stop treating it as objective opinion when it’s built around of mindless punishments and lasy buffs.
Seriously, quote me.
Because you've been having a conversation in your head and you're now taking your frustration out on me when I have said NONE of these things. Seriously, you are working off of some kind of grudge you have against me, not this actual conversation or thread.
I have made no such claim!No. I'm not too concerned about the balancing outcome of tunnelling.To remind you, you accused me of:
But implying that u can’t balance game on top level without tunnelling. And then along come you and your fellow “just git gud” thinkers, who insist on "it should just go because it's my opinion, and I don't actually care about balancing."
And I have not said any of these in here. I didn't say you can't balance top level without tunnelling, I didn't tell you to 'git gud', I didn't say it should go 'just because it's my opinion', and I never said I don't care about balancing.
I specifically said that I'm not concerned about the balancing outcome of tunnelling, by which I mean that I don't care whether it's OP or not, I'm concerned about the gameplay impact, not whether or not it's winning too many matches. That's not the same as saying that I don't care about balance at all. If indeed it proves to be too much of a nerf for killers over all, then compensatory buffs would be in order, absolutely. (And need I remind you, there were compensatory buffs included in the PTB, which I've spoken positively of already.)
But just buffing survivors up to be as powerful as tunnelling, thereby making tunnelling not broken overpowered, would not fix the issue I have with it. Which was what you asked of me, personally.
Aren’t u satisfied?