Firellius
Firellius
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- Firellius
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4029838#Comment_4029838
- as you say people have been sent a clear message that tunneling wont have meaningful changes… with that in mind people should know its very much part of the game and likely to stay. At this point people need to decide, accept it and play the game or dont. But DCing after they have agreed to play the game knowing what the game is, thats what needs preventing which more DC punishments and prevention will help to achieve this. I wouldnt play an FPS game and then DC when something which is part of the game happens like someone shooting at me. i couldnt say the reason i DC is because im being shot at. This is whats happening, something that even the devs have pretty much said is part of the game is being used as a reason for DCing which is crazy. can you imagine if killers had the option to DC and go next as easy as survivors can? any time they get looped they would DC in a heartbeat because they could. would the solution be to stop loops or stop killers from being able to DC frequently?
- i dont think tunneling increased when the meta was 3gening and when matches took a lot longer. i didnt tunnel and i didnt come across tunneling as much as survivor either so i have no idea where you get that from. the whole point to meta is that its the most effective strat and commonly used. its a contradiction to say meta is one thing but majority are using a less effective strat.
- based on my own experience as killer and survivor the increase in DCing ties in with the time where abandon was introduced and survivors got the go next prevention nerfed along side the release of ghoul. People DCed long before that but its been since roughly march/april that DC really took off and has been getting worse as time goes on. when i say DC i include go next and abandon because they are all one in the same, a way for a player to not play the match and move on as fast as possible.
as you say people have been sent a clear message that tunneling wont have meaningful changes… with that in mind people should know its very much part of the game and likely to stay.
Not really, because as has been shown, BHVR's intent can be subverted with enough backlash. Even if BHVR intends to appease the pro-tunnellers, those who are opposed to it can still opt to be disruptive in turn.
Not every dev decision has to be accepted, again, as stressed in the 9.2.0 PTB, so it's ridiculous to claim that 'people should know it's very much part of the game and likely to stay', since that can be used to discourage any attempt to improve the game.
I wouldnt play an FPS game and then DC when something which is part of the game happens like someone shooting at me. i couldnt say the reason i DC is because im being shot at. This is whats happening, something that even the devs have pretty much said is part of the game is being used as a reason for DCing which is crazy.
You wouldn't over just being shot at.
But you would over being spawncamped. Or at least, plenty of people would. Not being able to play the game due to spawncamping is a valid reason to just refuse to continue to play.
would the solution be to stop loops or stop killers from being able to DC frequently?
Ironically, this is kind of analogous to the tunnelling problem. People disrupting gameplay, ostensibly for one reason or another, and demanding that those reasons get resolved, rather than the disruption itself.
And in that analogy, there's plenty of people on here that are insisting on the 'stop loops'-equivalent option.
Also, I suspect that tightening the DC punishments might have an adverse effect. I don't think it's going to turn DCers into non-DCers, I rather suspect that it'll turn a lot of them into non-players. Which, yes, likely improves match quality… If there's any matches left to be had. (Also, worsening MMR conditions due to more diluted pools notwithstanding)
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I think the difficult bit is; how do you nerf Blight in such a way that he's still Blight, but not busted?
I think he's got a similar issue to the Nurse, where his kit just kinda has the game in a stranglehold by its base function.
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@Vampwire said:
Pyramid head main here. I don't think cages are worth using anymore. They're basically glorified remote hooks from the anniversary event. I think they've been over-nerfed and I'll explain why.
First off, no more loud noise notification when a survivor is saved from one. With experience this really isn't an issue. I know the majority of the time where my cages are. But what irks me is that this was removed and called a "bug" despite being part of his kit since release. It's obvious Pyramid Head has been targeted for the anti-tunnel changes since his kit allows for it so much. I agree that this should be curved from being too strong. But these changes don't really address that, only make it more complicated for new players or less experienced ones. BHVR wants to eliminate all tunneling, indiscriminately. And with that has made the threat of cages non existent. You still get BT, the killer has to guess where you are, and you're across the map from where he sent you. Awesome. Tunneling fixed, right? Not really, see, there's this neat little green add-on that lets you see the unhookers aura. So not only do you see where they unhooked, only needing to watch the hud for when the survivor's icon changes, but now you get COMPLETE INFORMATION ON EXACTLY WHAT THEY'RE DOING!! Chances are, they're gonna heal at the spot or run off together. You get all that info for free. So really all this has done is add more hurdles to tunneling with him. Nothing much else. And for a killer as good at zoning and if you're good, can hit you across most tiles, not much of a hurdle.
Second is BT on cages. There's 0 vulnerability being caged. Because this is really just to stop PH from killing you as soon as you get out the cage. But here's the issue, I can just stand in front of you with my power ready, and shoot you right as you get out. No more BT. A better fix for this issue would be to have the cages relocate the survivor once he enters a bigger range, as this would solve not only the issue of him camping cages, but also give him some value as survivors now have to go across the map to save the caged survivor. Hypothetically of course. An even better fix? Stop farming your teammates. Lot's of the time I'm a filthy tunneler, it's because I didn't let someone unhook in my face then let them finish the 90% gen next to them. Or they decide to pull their friend out of the cage despite hearing my increasing terror radius.
I just think if you want to remove the tunneling aspect of cages, rework them. Right now the best thing they're good at is either a fast hook or denying a pallet save. Sure, you can avoid DS and such with it. But let's be real, you don't know those perks are there until you see them. PH's design can be really problematic, yeah, but also tunneling is a very real threat that makes his secondary power matter. Once survivors realize cages aren't dangerous, they won't care anymore. Just to clarify, because I know some of you will think this for some reason, and that's if you even read this far: I don't think PH should be able to tunnel for free just because of goop. I think there should be real consequence to his cages to make them the threat they're supposed to be. They should leave you vulnerable because they're not hooks. Nerfing half of a killer's kit because you can't figure out how to fix it's issues is bad. That's how you wind up with a skull merchant.
I don't think cages are worth using anymore. They're basically glorified remote hooks from the anniversary event.
How are you going to claim they're not worth using and then immediately follow it up by handwaving a huge benefit?
It's still way, way faster than normal hooking and can't be denied.
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@JohnNemesisMan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4028348#Comment_4028348
And competent killer players don't tunnel, or skill alone stops them from tunneling? Specially with the low tiers? Because spreading hooks is still a less viable strategy than if you were to just tunnel (or eliminating a player out of the game ASAP), no matter how much skill you have, it could make spreading hooks easier, but it will make tunneling even easier too.
And competent killer players don't tunnel, or skill alone stops them from tunneling? Specially with the low tiers? Because spreading hooks is still a less viable strategy than if you were to just tunnel (or eliminating a player out of the game ASAP), no matter how much skill you have, it could make spreading hooks easier, but it will make tunneling even easier too.
But now you're talking about comparative power, not viability. Tunnelling being flat-out the Most Effective Tactic Available is different from non-tunnelling being non-viable. They're treated as the same in a lot of discussions though, which is where a lot of frustration comes from.
@Dokta_Carter said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4028348#Comment_4028348
While I agree on your take viability requires some competency, others can use said claim on several issues
Not that i completely agree on this but an example
"Three gens, is a lack of awareness on survivors side"
But if we use competency as a reason for certain things not being able to be changed, they will use exactly that for future changes which may be healthy for the game.
While I agree on your take viability requires some competency, others can use said claim on several issues
Yeah, because it's a valid argument.
"Three gens, is a lack of awareness on survivors side"
And this is true, until it wasn't anymore. 3-gens didn't get the nerf they got until the release of multiple killers that had the ability to perma-lock a 3-gen and render the game practically unwinnable. When a random joe-shmoe could hostage one of the top survivor teams in the world for over 45 minutes, it's clear that there's an issue even with competence taken into account.
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@JohnNemesisMan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4028331#Comment_4028331
Okay, let me ask this, before I say anything else. What does killer viability means to you? Or what does it mean to make a killer more viable?
Viability means that a killer has a reasonable chance at winning against survivors of similar skill level.
But that does require actual competence from the person playing it, too. Someone turbo-tunnelling their way into high MMR and being unable to keep up when other, more competent killer players can, does not make a killer 'non-viable'.
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@JohnNemesisMan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4028178#Comment_4028178
Because the killer side issue is viability, and the survivor side issue is enjoyability.
This type of thinking is the exact reason why the new PTB changes suck. The changes they proposed came from the surveys related to the enjoyability had on the survivor side while killer is treated like some sort of NPC they have to balance around in order to perform for the survivors. The killer side wants viability because they want to have fun too and not get dumpstered for trying something out of the meta.
Once again, though: Viability does involve personal competence. Just because JohnDoeMcForumkiller can't make something work doesn't mean it's not viable. Killer competence is never considered in discussions about viability.
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4028178#Comment_4028178
You can be a sufficiently incompetent killer to make any strategy non-viable, but no level of survivor competence is going to make tunnelling engaging.Again, I completely disagree, and even with my limited skill in chase have punished killers for trying to tunnel me and turned it into a winning game. Players better than me do it more often I'm sure. Punishing someone with a loss for over-relying on LCD strategies is honestly some of the most fun I have in the game, I'm just willing to accept its not going to work 100% of the time. Thats how competition works.
And before anyone says 'I like taking the killer on a 5-gen chase', the three teammates that get stuck doing gens only don't.Neither do killers who see the exit gates powered in their 3rd chase, or the ones who have to have to deal with flashlights and other objective denial. I will never understand how people pick and choose when to use "fun" as a core argument, rather than an ancillary one.
Again: Tunnelling is an issue of engagement. It's not fun for the players involved. Or rather, not involved, since three people are just not getting most of the game.
Conversely, 'killers who see the exit gates powered in their third chase' is where competence gets involved. Even if the game is horribly slanted in the killer's favour, a sufficiently incompetent killer player will still run into exit gates getting powered in their third chase.
or the ones who have to have to deal with flashlights and other objective denial. I will never understand how people pick and choose when to use "fun" as a core argument, rather than an ancillary one.
Rampant hook denial is actually a fair comparison to make to tunnelling, because that, too, is frustrating. The reason that the 'fun' argument isn't brought up in discussions around that particular issue is because there is no discussion around that particular issue.
Seriously, it is the most under-complained-about problem in the game, IMO.
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4028000#Comment_4028000
A 15-20% repair speed penalty is just going to mean survivors get 15-20% less gen-work done in the time it takes the killer to tunnel someone out. It's not going to disincentivize tunnelling at all if it just straight up buffs the very self-same tactic.Thats part of why I don't agree with the speed penalty as the bonus, though I do feel that the overall idea of addressing time management in a way that directly affects the way killers are pressured on their leniency for mistakes would be the most effective approach. A common trait among the higher tiers is that they can afford more mistakes before losing agency than the weaker ones, regardless of whether it comes from direct strength, synergies, or macro potential. Thats why I both highly recommend having the unique hook rewards be more focused than blanket buffs that ignore the variety of the roster, but also having equally impactful punishments to address those who refuse to adapt to more healthy playstyles.
The problem is that a sufficiently incompetent player can make every single playstyle non-viable, no matter how good it is, so 'making other playstyles viable' is a pipe-dream.Agree with the beginning (but moreso that the buffs should come with equal targeted nerfs to tunneling,) hard disagree with the end of the sentence. Yes, there will always be players who will not be adept enough to practice higher skill playstyles, which begs the question why that would be a killer-specific disqualifier. MANY of the anti-anything protections, HUD info updates, and other safeguard mechanics were not always necessary most of the time, and their necessity is greatly impacted by the skill of a given survivor who finds themselves needing them. Instead of the skill focus being around avoiding a quagmire, people focus on decreased agency while already inside it.
Tunneling CAN be beaten purely by skill, even if not always. Being downed in smart positions can not only prevent slugging, but even getting hooked in general. Kindred became redundant with the improved HUD info, and even that was never necessary beyond being helpful. These systems are designed irrespective of the lowest common denominator of skill, and even the most egregious versions wouldn't save someone just teabagging under the hook until they eventually get eliminated. You can't cite a lack of absolute result as a reason to not try for the ones who do get impacted by an improvement, and that applies to almost everything in the game on both sides.
Yes, there will always be players who will not be adept enough to practice higher skill playstyles, which begs the question why that would be a killer-specific disqualifier.
Because the killer side issue is viability, and the survivor side issue is enjoyability.
You can be a sufficiently incompetent killer to make any strategy non-viable, but no level of survivor competence is going to make tunnelling engaging.
And before anyone says 'I like taking the killer on a 5-gen chase', the three teammates that get stuck doing gens only don't.
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@XboxPlayur said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4027879#Comment_4027879
sorry you misspelled “slow the game down so killers can relax without getting steamrolled”. Contrary to what the devs say most killer players aren’t just evil trying to ruin survivor fun. They are stressed out with no room for error. A killer has to keep constant pressure and make no mistakes or they get steamrolled and bagged at the gates. The best way to get rid of tunneling is to make other playstyles viable. Making it harder and harder to apple pressure without significant incentives/buff for “playing nice” isn’t going to solve anything except killer queue times.
A 15-20% repair speed penalty is just going to mean survivors get 15-20% less gen-work done in the time it takes the killer to tunnel someone out. It's not going to disincentivise tunnelling at all if it just straight up buffs the very self-same tactic.
The best way to get rid of tunneling is to make other playstyles viable.
The problem is that a sufficiently incompetent player can make every single playstyle non-viable, no matter how good it is, so 'making other playstyles viable' is a pipe-dream.
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@JohnNemesisMan said:
Thing is, losing with 0 hooks is virtually the same thing as losing while with every survivor at death hook. Meaning you could have won a total of 8 chases and got nothing out of it. Aside that, the best way to turn the match in your favor is to force a 3v1. If a killer wasn't hard-tunneling at 5 gens, if there's about 2 gens left and none are dead, their best chance for a comeback will be to get a kill as quickly as possible.
How would I like to see it changed? I feel instead of doing unique hook bonuses, maybe do death hook related bonuses. If you get a survivor to death hook, both the killer and the death hooked survivor could get a permanent bonus. Death hook is often the turning point of a match, the killer can chose to extend the match by making itself stronger while the survivor gets a bonus that helps them survive longer so that the killer doesn't feel too inclined to go for the kill right away. If the killer does down (because not losing the effect on a downed survivor would encourage slugging) the death hooked survivor, that bonus goes away until they get up or die.
Do no harm is a perk that already tackles this idea, instead of perks, it would be cool to have it as a mechanic that encourage both sides to extend the match for everyone involved.Thing is, losing with 0 hooks is virtually the same thing as losing while with every survivor at death hook.
This is the big issue. With kill-oriented stats, these are regarded the same way when they're very clearly not.
Similarly, one hook camped to death in EGC is regarded as higher skill than eight hooks, no kills.
Thematically, it makes no sense either. The killer is supposed to harvest dread and despair, but having three survivors never see hide nor hair of the killer is better regarded by the entity than a killer that drives them all to the edge.
Hook-based MMR might just fix a ton of problems.
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You can make the exact same thing with the sides reversed.
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@CorvidXCVIII said:
Have it be like the anti-face camping mechanic. For each survivor not in the dying state in the exit gate area, speed up EGC.
That's gonna be just as ineffective though, as people will just keep ever so slightly out of the exit gate area to not trigger it and still be completely safe.
IMO, killers should just have an abandon option once EGC starts.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4026919#Comment_4026919
How would this work? Couldn't you just keeping hooking the same weak link over and over?
This, plus the unhooked survivor would be injured off hook and basically have a shorter chase by default.
I'd go with a repair speed increase upon first kill, which scales down with number of hooks. First kill on three hooks nets the biggest bonus, whereas six hooks doesn't incur any.
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Oh my god if survivors dedicate a full build they aren't completely helpless if you put them on this one specific hook when will the survivor-sidedness end?
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@AbsolutGrndZer0 said:
I don't know why people complain about tunneling when there are perks to counter tunneling like Decisive Strike for example. Seems silly to me.
Guess all the people that ran that argument don't like it when the shoe's on the other foot.
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@Sngfun said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4022826#Comment_4022826
I mean it wasnt a 50/50, more or less a 70/30 in favor of the survivor. and it got worse if you were in a map with lots of hallways like midwitch or RPD, where you would have more choices to do and less of a chance of getting the right path as killer
This doesn't happen with Fog Crystals because of their reduced radius
That doesn't answer the question. Shouldn't a survivor item favour the survivor, instead of being equal to both sides?
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whereas when the fog vials worked at their strongest they were much more in favor of the survivor because of how big their radius was.
As a survivor item, is it not supposed to be in favour of the survivor?
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I think it's a waste of time.
Making tunnelling a bit harder but not actually discouraging it is not going to resolve the problem, while those who are adamant that tunnelling must not be obstructed in any way are going to be just as irate over this patch as they were over 9.2.0.
Trying to appease the 'tunnelling 5ever' crowd while also trying to stop the game from bleeding survivors who just don't want to deal with tunnelling anymore is just going to end up with a system that does too little to actually address the problem, but no matter how little it does, it will be too much for the other side of the aisle.
At this point, they just need to tell one of the two groups to eat dirt. Either tell the survivors that you're not going to do anything because you fear the backlash, or tell the killers that you're going to be experimenting with anti-tunnel, even if they don't like the idea of a game without tunnelling.
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@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4022571#Comment_4022571
So you think its better for antitunnel to stay once all gens are powered for 30 seconds after unhook? Do you know how easy would it be to just escape even if you get basekit haste and endurence for 30 seconds without other bonuses, if these all things or just basekit bt with haste stayed after unhook for 30 seconds many killers would just be unable to secure last kill which isnt good chance and even devs stated once the all gens re done there is nothing to defend for killer exept hooked survivor thats why antifacecamp doesnt work too.
That's not the point.
If someone says 'we can punish killers for doing their job when survivors get punished for doing gens', it is incredibly fair to point to all the perks and protections that get stripped from survivors as punishment for clearing the fifth gen.
We already do punish survivors for clearing gens.
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@Crowman said:
We can punish killers for killing the same time we punish survivors for getting gens done.
The punishments were the main issue with the last attempt. It's a shame the devs didn't keep any useful buffs for spreading hooks so it's still going to be better to force early kills when possible.
We can punish killers for killing the same time we punish survivors for getting gens done.
The game naturally does. Co-op penalty and reduced patrol space always make the last gens go slower than the first.
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@Bustaroo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4022190#Comment_4022190
Killer: "There's a new thing I don't like, fix it!"
BHVR: "Okay."
Yeah it only took them 6 years to change DH, 2 years to change CoH and 6 months to change MFT. Meanwhile a new killer releases and gets nerfed within a week.
Okay, and?
That's still an infinitely better timescale than their tackling of tunnelling, considering that's 9 years and counting.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4022077#Comment_4022077
Survivor: "Killer, you have to play how i want you to play."
Killer: "ok, can i tell you how to play?"
Survivor: "dont be absurd, im a survivor, our roles are not equal so i can tell you how to play the game. Doesnt mean you can tell me how to play"
Killer: "of course, sorry to even suggest it, you play how you want, i will follow your rules"
Ye thats just not going to happen lol
In actuality…
Killer: "I don't like how survivors play, change it!"
BHVR: "Okay."
Killer: "There's a new thing I don't like, fix it!"
BHVR: "Okay."
Survivors: "You know, there's this thing killers do that we don't like…"
Killer: "Oh, what, are we supposed to change things because you don't like them?"
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@DarKStaR350z said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4021886#Comment_4021886
That’s a great point actually. One person could uninstall because their killer power feels too weak, second could uninstall because some killer powers feel too strong to go against. Theres no way of knowing from that vague question response wether its one or the other, or which killer power of of 41 they might be referring to.
It's enough to tell them that they need to investigate further, if people do answer that.
If, on this preliminary question, no one bothers to give this answer, then there's no reason for anyone to fret about it because evidently no one cares.
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@Leon_van_Straken said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4021878#Comment_4021878
I will give you right. It is not fair how I made my question. But I am still curious how a good game should look like.
First one says it should be a close game
Second one says it should be a game with 8 hooks before someone dies.
One wants a fast paced game the other a stealthy one.
I just wanted opinions so you can discuss with me. Open my eyes or see flaws someone else didnt think off.
Thats why I said okay if tunneling, slugging and camping are removed what is left.
I got examples from @Firellius that Hit and Run and 3 Gening is still an option. But I don´t think that if the Meta goes that way survivors would be happy.
But if these playstyles are ######### too and let Survivors deinstall the game, where is the line?
We all kmow that people are never happy and I am afraid that If you give the children candy it wants more.
It feels a bit like the time as Skullmerchant got nuked. After BHVR nuked her because the complains got to loud it was okay for a time. Then some people on twitter and this forum demanded lets give ghoul the Skullmerchant treatment and BHVR will nuke him. Or an example for the other Side lets complain about Fog vials till BHVR nukes them.I think too that a good anti Tunnel or Anti Slug should exist. But when we start to nerf these "Strategies/Cheap Tactics" where do we stop? Is a dead survivor at four hooks tunneling? Or only at 3 hooks? Is tunneling two survivors out at hook 5 and 6 enough to nerf tunneling more?
Thats why I asked, what is in your opinion a good survivor game? Cause I can´t know that. I try to recognize patterns here and I am really afraid that this game will not be balanced at all but just the side which is crying louder gets their feet kissed.
I try to recognize patterns here and I am really afraid that this game will not be balanced at all but just the side which is crying louder gets their feet kissed.
This, hot off the killer outrage turbo-axing a PTB addressing the number one issue for players quitting DBD. (And then also tacking on a survivor nerf to exacerbate said issue)
So if you're really looking for patterns, don't worry: If the pattern holds, the next playstyle after tunnelling won't cop any nerfs until 2034.
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@Leon_van_Straken said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4021849#Comment_4021849
If all things survivor have would be trashed and still someone says to me "They are to strong, boring, or whatever I would ask them what they want survivors to do. Standing there like scared chickens? If they say "Yes thats exactly what I want" I would ask them if he wants a competitive game or a farming sim.
Belive me or not I am a Survivor main which sometimes plays Michael or Chucky (whatever the difference between them is thx bhvr for that…) and I want a fun game for both sides.
I don´t want the blight to rush screaming back to my hook the second my feet touch the grass, I don´t want to be slugged for 4 minutes while the Killer is searching for the last mate which is hiding. But I don´t want the feeling of "I can waste every pallet on the map and know after all gens are done i can still throw 10 more."
I simply had the question. "IF" and i want to have the focus on the IF because it is a theoretical question. IF all things survivor say is unfun, cheap or unskilled would be bannished from the game (which many players on this forum do) what would be the playstyle for the killer players.
I think that some of the tunneling, slugging or camping is part of the game we all play. But if I ask how much is okay or when is it okay I get downvoted but not a single answer.
But why I don´t get an answer? Do survivors really want a bot running behind them looping for 5 gens and clippfarm? Or is there a vision?
I want to go away from the us vs them and ask openly to the other side. What do you want?
It's not an open question if you've already filled in the answer yourself and refuse everything else.
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@Leon_van_Straken said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4021829#Comment_4021829
So you are telling me that Hit and Run and smaller amount of patrolling a 3 gen is the optimal goal or a good game for you?
I wonder why Legionis hated so much if constant healing vs Hit and Run is so much fun…
Why Skull Merchant was a problem when 3 gen is the funnier tactic…
Excuse me but this doesn´t sound like a good match to me and I bet with you that these strategies if they will become Meta will be even more hated.
This is what I mean! You don't WANT an answer, because that'll get in the way of your hysterics!
Yeah, sure, Legion, take the most egregious example of not just perma-injury but perma-MENDING and just omit any other example of hit-and-run.
And Skull Merchant was SPECIFICALLY a problem because of running the clock, which I already mentioned IS off the table.
Be honest with yourself: Do you WANT any answer other than 'No, I want you to play like a bot'?
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@Leon_van_Straken said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4021821#Comment_4021821
You are still dodging my question.
You say there are multible ways that a killer can play except Tunneling, Slugging, Camping etc. but you won´t say which.
I said I am afraid that the playstyle the game boils down too after all the things which you say are not the desired ones is: Killer chases Survivor A till he is hooked. Goes to Survivor B and repeat.
If there is more please enlight me.
Thats my whole question. IF all unwanted, cheap, skillless playstyles wouldnt be used. Which playstyles are left.
You are still dodging my question.
You say there are multible ways that a killer can play except Tunneling, Slugging, Camping etc. but you won´t say which.
We literally already talked about two!
I'm not gonna take your hand and walk you through every complexity that DBD has to offer. I'm not even the most competent killer player to give you that advice. But I've already told you about two tactical elements that you are now claiming I've never mentioned.
I said I am afraid that the playstyle the game boils down too after all the things which you say are not the desired ones is: Killer chases Survivor A till he is hooked. Goes to Survivor B and repeat.
You already said this isn't happening!
I know this is what you want to be happening because that way you have something to be outraged about, but it isn't. The devs have already taken action in the past specifically to protect Hit-and-Run as a playstyle, for example. And 3-genning is still a viable tool, just not to run the clock out for the full 60 minutes. They specifically stated that they erred on the side of caution and chose a gen-kick number that is well, well above the average. (In conjunction with boosting the value of each of those kicks)
If there is more please enlight me.
I already did. We moved past this point. To revert to it now is purely disingenuous.
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@ImWinston said:
"Whisper" isn't a good perk, but Spirit, for example, can benefit from it. "Hoarder," on the other hand, is a perk I don't see being useful in any scenario.🤣 Even "shattered hope", considering how weak and rare boons are, is a totally useless perk. also because, you literally just have to kick the "boon" (this operation takes literally 1 second), and you have turned off the boon🤣
Hoarder was also one of the ones I thought of, although I used to use it a lot on Pinhead where it was pretty good.
Most killer perks are pretty good or have some application in which they can shine. The fact that there's so many different killers with different playstyles and mechanical elements also adds to how certain perks can become valuable on some. Hoarder used to be a good example of this, but with limited items now being exempt, it really does become quite weak. With Franklin's aura radius being buffed to match Hoarder's, it also lost its synergy with that, so I'd say Hoarder is probably the most pointless killer perk at the moment.
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@Leon_van_Straken said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4021812#Comment_4021812
I know that Survivors are quitting because of these things and I agree with you that they need fine tuning.
Thats why I am asking: What is the desiered playstyle that would make survivors happy?
I don´t want a discussion about what the devs do nor I want to frame that killers can´t do anything else.
I want to know "What is the Playstyle a Killer should play so that survivors stop deinstall the game"
There is no singular desired playstyle. There's multiple ways you can play that survivors enjoy going up against.
Just not tunnelling, slugging, camping, or a 60-minute lock-out.
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@Leon_van_Straken said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4021805#Comment_4021805
It is a simple question and yes it is theoretical. (I didn´t ask what the devs are doing but what the survivor mains which are clearly unhappy about these tactics would say is the perfect playstyle for a Killer)
Now after that is clea… IF all aspects which are condemd to be lazy, cheap or boring to face are removed. What playstyle is left?
I know you like your "whataboutism" facts so you don´t have to answer my questions and you don´t have to answer them if you don´t know an answer to them because I know that I have no clear answer which Playstyle would be the "optimal playstyle" for Killers which would survivors like to see so that they can say "Yes this game is balanced".
Alternative question which amount of Tunneling, Slugging, Hit and Running etc. hits the sweet spot for everyone?
It is a simple question and yes it is theoretical. (I didn´t ask what the devs are doing but what the survivor mains which are clearly unhappy about these tactics would say is the perfect playstyle for a Killer)
Now after that is clea… IF all aspects which are condemd to be lazy, cheap or boring to face are removed. What playstyle is left?
I mean… We've already talked about hit-and-run and gen defense.
I get that you really want to create the notion that there's nothing the killer can do except committed chases, in an effort to make survivors appear unreasonable, but that's distinctly not true.
I know you like your "whataboutism" facts
I'm sorry, but it's incredibly hypocritical to accuse someone else of whataboutism when I'm specifically responding to your
'Well, what if [thing that isn't happening] were to happen, hm!?'
You're 'whatabouting' about a scenario that you, yourself have admitted is completely fictional.
Also, I don't recall ever interacting with you so 'I know you like your 'whataboutism'' makes it sound like you're either cliquing or ban dodging.
which Playstyle would be the "optimal playstyle" for Killers which would survivors like to see so that they can say "Yes this game is balanced".
If survivors cared about balance, you'd see a lot more complaints about the 60% KR benchmark that the devs are aiming at, because it's an admission that the game is being balanced against them.
You could even design the anti-tunnel in such a way that killrates increase and you'd probably not hear a peep, unless it goes overboard. But tunnelling chops off huge components of survivor gameplay, making for stale and boring matches, and people are tired of it. People are quitting over it too, which is why BHVR wants to take action.
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@Leon_van_Straken said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4021799#Comment_4021799
That wasn´t my question.
My question was "IF" all these unfun aspects of the game are removed. What Playstyle is left?
And is the Playstyle i described the wished one? Because I guess you really can programm a Killer Bot for this.
Then your question just dives into an irrelevant, theoretical situation.
'Well if everything but chasing is nerfed…'
But that's not happening.
'And is the playstyle I described the wished one?'
Evidently not, since Hit-and-run is still in the game and no one complains about it. Also, while 3-genning can no longer lock up a match for 60 minutes until the server time-out hands the killer the win because it erroneously assumes that only survivors can run the clock out like that, it's still in the game as a viable tool.
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@Leon_van_Straken said:
Just a quick question….
If tunneling, slugging, facecamping, proxy camping, 3 gening, hit and run, and creating dead zones are completly removed.
Which form of strategy has the killer left except "Find Survivor A, chase till he is down, pick up, hook and reapeat at Survivor B?"
Medkits copped a nerf specifically to keep hit-and-run in.
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@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4021555#Comment_4021555
That patch 9.2.0 wasnt worse in ideas it was just overdone and all it nneded was to took it and shape it so something solid which wouldnt destroy either side would came live but all they did was just scrape the tunneling punishments (which were wrongly done becasue they should aim for hardcore tunneling on 4-5 gens like the one you see in DBD tournaments but instead punished even trapper on 1 gen left who hooked one guy two times in row who just stepped into his trap, not three times in the row thats tunneling that should be punished) and killer uniqe hook bunuses just got scraped and all we get is more blood points (which wont solve or change a thing and should be implemented long time before as some early stages to discourage people from tunneling early on) and bloodlast (which is even worse than haste becasue you will loose it if you use killers power, break pallet or wall or start chase with survivor so its just good for few killers that have power for chase only and no mobility,stealth or trap power like slinger,legion, maybe huntress but many killers wont benefit from it from blight to ghostface which is huge number of killers and many of them arent even mediocre killers but weaker ones that should get stronger benefits in first place).
The endgame part with antitunnel is now normal so no more haste with endurance for 30 seconds that was busted, antislug isnt that overtuned but still hardcore nerf for oni or twins and I didnt saw any news about their changes because of this change to their power to not making playing them worse because their main desing of their powers is just slugging when they can and than nothing more. Antitunnel changes are same exept the part where survivors had no collision which was more problematic than it should be and didnt stop forced bodyblocks just make them still posible and more like using flashbang inside killers model so he cant counter it even if he has wall infront of him etc.
Its just onesided "handholding" patch for survivor side that wont solve anything just forces you to play more dirty and sweaty from the start or pick stronger killers nothing more will change. They could do it better than this and even from their steam they didnt even said whats tunneling from their point of viev they just trying to balance the game from data which was back kere in history and it didnt went well but Im more surprised each time they are doing same mistakes over and over.
Last thing insulting pictures with problematic stuff like tunneling and sluging with merchant and not trapper (its insult not because its joke but depends who makes this joke about who and from history like they like and treated merchant this just makes it insulting). Antifacecamp changes that are just making huge problem on many indoor twofloor maps like rpd or gideon for sure not to mention untill all gens are done killers can face camp for long time. Merchant news which are few buffs for us to stop wanting solid rework or power up for her as compensation for her butchery.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHplLL6gfPE
This video gets it all and has points that arent easy to take it lighty.
This video gets it all and has points that arent easy to take it lighty.
I'm sorry, but 'Survivors will intentionally get themselves downed so they can unlock the ability to get themselves up' is an absolute joke of a take.
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@DarKStaR350z said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4021339#Comment_4021339
Gutted means changed so the gameplay has significantly changed or is no longer possible.
40 seconds of endurance from OTR still functions the same as before.
Gen tapping taking a couple of extra seconds is not significantly different.
Distortion performing the same function but being changed in a healthy way to obtain charges is not gutted.Fog vials were gutted, Skull Merchant was gutted. Those things do not perform their function any more.
This is exactly what I mean. They had these critical reasons to be changed, but apparently, they never actually did that?
OTR can still be used to bodyblock to your heart's content, you can still gen-tap mid-chase to stop regression, and Distortion still hides your aura all match long.
Ironically, Fog Vials fit your definition of 'gutted' the least.
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@WalterBlack said:
Forums decided to delete my draft :)
Thanks for your detailed response, I can't say I fully agree with all the points you're making but I'm glad we can at least have a polite discussion about this. My takeaway from all this:
I don't necessarily agree that including killer-specific complaints, some of which have been repeatedly echoed over the years (gen speeds, inherent power of SWF, even something more general like map balance) would constitute a "mind-reading competition". Arguing that survivors, at large, communicate their complaints more eloquently than Killers - well, I suppose one is entitled to their own opinion. I've seen evidence to the contrary, though I agree that tunnelling, slugging and camping are topics structurally brought up both here and on other forums. A similar thing could be said for gen speeds, SWF power discrepancy and map balance.
Arguing that survivors, at large, communicate their complaints more eloquently than Killers - well, I suppose one is entitled to their own opinion.
Oh, I didn't say 'eloquently'.
But someone posting a ragewall complaining about tunnelling is still communicating their problem.
Someone posting a ragewall about how BHVR never listens to their complaints is not actually communicating the complaint they expect BHVR to listen to.
(gen speeds, inherent power of SWF, even something more general like map balance)
Then there's the issue that you have to put the entire poll into context. Some issues aren't going to be fixable (You can't nerf swiffer, you can't make gens slower), and some issues are already on the priority list (Map balance) and don't need to be polled again.
Then there's also the problem of stats cutting in again, because arguments about balance have to be put into perspective. If the community is adamant that a certain map is busted OP absolutely 100% survivor-sided and the stats show that that map's kill rate is a cut higher than the rest, what are BHVR gonna do? Come out and say 'we saw the poll, but you're all objectively wrong'?
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@Leon_van_Straken said:
I think it is funny that this survey goes full us vs them.
You can see this in the Ups and Downvotes and you can read clearly in the post that person X is a Y Main XD
I play most of the time survivor because I can´t play killer that much since the anxity of failing my performance as killer ruins the gameplay a bit.
But if I would deinstall the game I would like to point out some points for both sides which isn´t possible.
PS. If somebody says "there is an option where you can write down your opinion" Yeah… these things never work because there is no algorythm which is efficent enough to count these opinions.
PS. If somebody says "there is an option where you can write down your opinion" Yeah… these things never work because there is no algorythm which is efficent enough to count these opinions.
I'm pretty sure BHVR's staff are capable of reading.
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@WalterBlack said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4021113#Comment_4021113
The argument is that, while survivor-specific complaints are included, there's a distinct lack of killer-specific complaints in the "uninstall survey" - to include the biggest complaints of both sides would only be fair, no? Saying that pointing this out constitutes someone "not wanting survivors to be able to complain about tunnelling" is just incredibly dishonest.
The problem with that is that there's a space to enter whichever issue you have, and there's a couple of options that absolutely work for killer complaints.
If BHVR wants to ask about these 'killer-specific complaints', they'd first need to know what they are. Getting outraged over the fact that they're asking in an open format while the single most complained about thing over the past 9 years does show up pre-penned on the survey is basically just demanding that BHVR do a mind-reading before asking questions.
Additionally, BHVR has stats to go with the survey. If they're noticing a decline in survivor players, they're not going to ask why killers are leaving. Demanding a perfectly even survey might not even serve the goal. If you've got an injured right arm and the questionnaire has you go through triage for both the right and left arm, that's a waste.
Lastly, I said this in another topic as well, but it has to be said that killer issues are terribly poorly communicated because they only ever come up when survivors get any kind of attention.
Contrast this with how there's at least one new topic complaining about tunnelling every week. Survivor issues are well-known because they are frequently brought up and outlined, whereas killers very rarely complain about most issues outside of a vague handwave towards 'balance'.
The fact that these unspecified issues are not on the list have garnered more outrage in days than any of said issues have over the past two years.
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@Leon_van_Straken said:
Please vote which subject made you quit school.
1.Sport
2. Art
3. Biologie
After 10000 feedbacks the wishes of the people have been heard. MATH is the most liked school subject of all time since no one has a problem with it.
Yeah doesn´t sound right.
But the survey has another misleading step and this is the ratio of survivor and killers. If all killer players on this world would decide to quit because ("Stupid reason or the whole world will try to argument why it is balanced") Survivors grunts of pain are not satisfing enough and all survivors on this world would quit because ("stupid reason") Weskers Hairs isn´t fluffy enough the survivors would win by 4 to 1 regardless.
So if a Killer stops playing and a SWF would stop playing because one friend stopped the scale is tipped heavyly into the favor of survivors.
Please vote which subject made you quit school.
1.Sport
2. Art
3. Biologie
After 10000 feedbacks the wishes of the people have been heard. MATH is the most liked school subject of all time since no one has a problem with it.
Yeah doesn´t sound right.
But it's also an inaccurate analogy because in reality, the survey was
- Sports
- Art
- Biology
- Other, I.E.: [Enter here]
And now the people that really hate math are getting upset because almost no one entered Math and a lot of other people said Sports.
But the survey has another misleading step and this is the ratio of survivor and killers. If all killer players on this world would decide to quit because ("Stupid reason or the whole world will try to argument why it is balanced") Survivors grunts of pain are not satisfing enough and all survivors on this world would quit because ("stupid reason") Weskers Hairs isn´t fluffy enough the survivors would win by 4 to 1 regardless.
This assumes players fall neatly into the two categories with no overlap, which is another pain point with this outrage over the survey:
There will be killer players that still quit over excessive tunnelling, just because they might play survivor too and that experience is bad enough to push them out.
So if a Killer stops playing and a SWF would stop playing because one friend stopped the scale is tipped heavyly into the favor of survivors.
Here's the catch, though: If a Swiffer of four all quit because one of them dislikes tunnelling that much, then the survey would result in one person saying 'excessive tunnelling' and the other three saying 'friend quit'.
So if this were a key concern, the top issue wouldn't be 'excessive tunnelling', it'd be 'friend quit'. But tunnelling was the top concern.
Also, there's nothing stopping someone on their way out because a friend quit from also answering 'I also quit because of rampant hook denial'.
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@DarKStaR350z said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4021200#Comment_4021200
You aren’t understanding.
They have a minimal effect on gameplay after the changes, and were changed because of how they affected gameplay prior to those changes which was not minimal.Hold on, so you're saying 'They weren't gutted, they were just changed to have minimal effect on gameplay'?
What do you think 'gutted' means?
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@chknTM said:
There is no Options for Killer Problems in the Uninstall Survey
It makes alot more sense now why BHVR sees the major reasons for quitting as from Tunneling, Slugging, Camping as the main point, when the survey they use only asks about either Survivors issues, or blanket issues that affect the game as a whole, but no Killer issues.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/AHMOJJTDTSGK/screenshot-2025-10-28-042104.png
Theres 4 Options that are limited to 1 side, and all of them are from the Survivor experience, yet not a single one for the Killer experience.
An Answer about Killer side stuff being too strong, but not a single option to complain about Survivor Perks/Addons/Items.https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/OWRU2RXDJSE5/image.png
This is weirdly biased, it couldnt have been hard to add an option for both sides right?
An Answer about Killer Gameplay but none about Survivor Gameplay.https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/CJKA3LKDPU3I/image.png
It has been Confirmed this is the Survey BHVR used to gain this Data, which is EXTREMELY worrying.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/PAOJ757D4JF1/screenshot-2025-10-28-041700.png
Cause it literally just means that no player who quits can even list their reasons if they are Killer-side related, which makes this data very skewed.
It definitely feels like Killer problems have been absent from almost every Survey, including this one it seems.
Definitely feels like this needs to be looked at.An Answer about Killer side stuff being too strong, but not a single option to complain about Survivor Perks/Addons/Items.
'Unbalanced' isn't just OP, it's UP as well.
Also, character perks is listed in the second column.
@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4021088#Comment_4021088
And what are the Survivor players going to do when all the Killer players quit because BHVR never listens to their complaints?
Like it or not, you need Killer players if you want to play Dead by Daylight. Or do you want this game to end up like VHS?
And what are the Survivor players going to do when all the Killer players quit because BHVR never listens to their complaints?
They used the exact verbiage of killer complaints in their explanation for why the 9-year awaited anti-tunnel update got tossed in the woodchipper within 48 hours.
They did the same when they axed Distortion, and with OTR. And with healing.
'BHVR never listens to their complaints'
I'm sorry, but killers are awful at communicating them. The vast majority of complaints are found three pages deep in discussions about tunnelling as they're practically only ever brought up in response to survivor issues being discussed.
With exact verbiage getting copied, it's pretty much undeniable that killer complaints have the devs' ears. The fact that nothing gets communicated isn't because BHVR isn't listening, it's because none of you are talking. We've got, what, five threads being indignant about the fact that tunnelling is on the exit survey, but no threads actually outlining the alleged issues killers are facing. Compare to tunnelling, that consistently gets threads dedicated to complaining about it.
BNPs? Never heard of 'em. Bully Squads? Who're those? Rampant hook denial? Is that a Tiktok dance?
Not to mention that any time these complaints get addressed, they get -immediately- swept under the rug. Any time issues get addressed or fixed, within 72 hours, there'll be more complaints that 'BHVR never listens'.
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@DarKStaR350z said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4020826#Comment_4020826
Of course you can - they had too much of an impact on gameplay in a negative way and were changed so now they do not and are more reasonable. You can still play the game in exactly the same way they just don’t so heavily impact gameplay.
If something has 'minimal effect on gameplay', that's not something that has a 'good reason' to change. That's what 'minimal impact' means.
It's trying to have your cake and eat it too, simultaneously overselling and underselling their value.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4021113#Comment_4021113
Which people in this thread are saying that “survivors shouldn’t be able to complain about tunneling”?????
People keep saying BOTH SIDES should have dedicated survey choices. Both sides means survivors would STILL have a dedicated choice for tunneling, but killers would ALSO have dedicated choices for things like “generator speeds are too fast”.
When there's a survey that asks why someone uninstalled and it gives you a bunch of options and a box to fill in whatever you want and it's considered 'terribly killer-sided' because tunnelling is on the list as an issue, that's what it comes down to.
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@The_Count said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4020881#Comment_4020881
Exactly!
People keep forgetting that you can be hard tunneled PLAYING AS the killer, so obviously this kind of question doesn't need to specify the role.
Oh, eh… wait…Not beating the 'I just don't want survivors to even be able to complain about tunnelling' allegations.
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Do you think they might've had community response parsed by AI?
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@CorvidXCVIII said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4020921#Comment_4020921
To be completely honest, I haven't seen the survey list, I've just been browsing the forums waiting for a game to install. I saw this comment asking what reason a killer player would have to uninstall and I answered it. Apologies.
Oh, it's not accusatory, just contextualising it within the topic, is all.
You're good!
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@CorvidXCVIII said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4019623#Comment_4019623
The matchmaking. It's either extremely easy wins against survivors who cower the second they hear the terror radius or I'm against people I don't have a hope in hell in securing more than a 1K. It isn't even easy win, easy win, easy win, big loss. It's seemingly completely random but hey, it keeps me at a 60%ish kill rate so it must be working correctly, right? It's not. I miss having close games where both sides feel like there's a chance, I haven't had one of those since I came back to the game after Unknown dropped.
This one's on the survey list, though.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4020881#Comment_4020881
Which of the following contributed the most to you uninstalling Dead By Daylight?
- Generator speeds are too fast
- playing against a SWF is unfun
- Hook denial (i.e. pallet saves, flashlight saves, hook sabotages) are unfun
- Certain survivor perks are unfun
- Certain survivor items or addons are unfun
- Other (Please specify)
Does that mean you think the above survey is fair, because it's not asking why killer players uninstalled, and instead it's irrespective of role? And if you are a survivor player, you could just tell them why you uninstalled?
So what is it that you think you can't put on the above survey?
Because right now, it looks more like folks are mad that they deigned to give players the option to say 'tunnelling', than any legitimate concern about not being able to communicate frustrations to the devs.
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@まうっす said:
There are two surveys here, but neither of them has a question about "Why did killer players uninstall the game?"
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/VLGO4DYTZPJN/g4s6k-bwcailktx.jpeg
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/1UDCOVKVPZKP/g4sgvxzasaavs7k.jpeg
Nor does it ask why survivor players uninstalled.
It asks why you uninstalled, irrespective of role.
So if you are a killer player, you can tell them why you uninstalled.
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@DarKStaR350z said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4020714#Comment_4020714
I don’t know about what they said, just pointing out that those things were changed for good reasons not because they were ‘unfun’, and that they weren’t completely ‘gutted’ but had a minimal effect on gameplay.
Gen tapping takes a couple seconds longer, OTR is still insanely good at half its original numbers, Distortion still does the same thing but requires playing the game to activate.Theres definitely an argument to be made they went too hard on Fog Vials in true BHVR fashion and could’ve tried smaller changes first to see how they were with charges first before changing anything else. It’s just weird to see it on a survivor thing as usually that’s the reaction to killer stuff, like straight up deleting part of Chucky’s kit without trying anything else. Though that seems to have changed with how they’ve handled Ghoul and Krasue by making smaller changes over time rather than going way too far and having to buff something back up later.
I don’t know about what they said, just pointing out that those things were changed for good reasons not because they were ‘unfun’, and that they weren’t completely ‘gutted’ but had a minimal effect on gameplay.
'Good reason' and 'minimal effect on gameplay'?
One of the two, because you can't have both.
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@DarKStaR350z said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4020698#Comment_4020698
Gen tapping was removed because there are 4 survivors vs 1 killer and any one of them could touch a gen for 0.1 second and undo the almost 2 second killer action of kicking it.
OTR was changed because 80 seconds of endurance was insanely overkill, even when compared to every other instance of endurance, particularly when used with flashlights or for pallet saves that do not count as conspicuous actions and cancel its effect. It still got rebuffed to be 40 seconds which is half its original value and still an insanely high value.
Fog Vials were changed because it enabled playing the game without ever actually needing to engage with the killer as it was a free escape on an infinite use item with a small cooldown that could be ready every chase.
Aura blocking I assume you mean Distortion which was changed for the same reason as fog vials above, it still works exactly the same you just can’t hide all match without engaging with the killer and actually have to engage with the normal gameplay loop to get the aura blocking benefit. You can still hide in lockers to block them though, and many aura reading perks on the killer side got changed.
In other words: They're perfect examples of exactly what CoffeeCrashing claimed did not happen/exist.