Firellius
Firellius
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4052090#Comment_4052090
I read through it again now.
I don't think that tunneling is overpowered, not when so many base-kit second chances have been implemented to deal with any semblance of unfairness it may have ever had. Now, it comes down to, as you referenced, personal and team skill, which I don't think is unfair to rely on in a team game. Anecdotally, when I go down and get targeted repeatedly, it's because of how fast I went down and where I went down, like by the basement. And, when someone else is getting targeted repeatedly, it's something I try to counter with body-blocks and/or repair efficiency.
I don't think that tunneling is overpowered, not when so many base-kit second chances have been implemented to deal with any semblance of unfairness it may have ever had.
One.
There's one basekit 'second chance'. The rest takes up perk slots.
And you accuse others of gaslighting?
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4051609#Comment_4051609
There is if you both don't get hit and allow Third Seal to get activated and know how to interpret distance based on the Terror Radius. The Survivors failed because of a skill issue, and the Killer used that build because it allowed them to win. If that build can't be dealt with, that means that the Survivor role does not get played enough.
There is if you both don't get hit and allow Third Seal to get activated
'Just don't get hit, 4head'
Boy, if that were an option, we'd be looking at KRs in the low 10s in high MMR.
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@top500spiderman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4051208#Comment_4051208
This isn't them saying it's balanced, it's saying that it's at the point where they want it to be. A point they previously clarified as 'relatively even', where the killer is a real threat and survival is not guaranteed.
This is what they think is balanced, it's saying that it's at the point where they want it to be. A point they previously clarified as 'balanced', where the killer is a real threat and survival is not guaranteed.
I fixed it for you.
This is weird rage bait, "Our intended killer balance" there calling the point which is 60% for killer to be balanced, LITTERALLY. What you think is balanced in a video game doesn't matter its subjective.
what agenda are you trying to push on here to be in such denial over the english language?
I guess your rage bait was pretty good because I fell for it lol
This is weird rage bait, "Our intended killer balance" there calling the point which is 60% for killer to be balanced, LITTERALLY.
Let me ask you: Why would they say 'our intended balance' instead of 'balanced' when those two are, according to you, one and the same?
Doesn't it go without saying that the proprietors of a competitive pvp game intend for their balance to be immaculately evened out?
So why do they draw this distinction between 'balanced' and 'intended balance'?
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@top500spiderman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4051194#Comment_4051194
"This largely falls in line with our killer balance"
read it one more time "our killer balance", 60% falls within THEIR killer "Balance". There saying in exact words that 60% is what they deem to be balanced for killer.
Are you trolling?
Again, they're saying that it's at the intended point
You made this up lmao, nowhere did they just say it was just at a certain "point" they liked.
They outright LITERALLY said its at there intended balance for killer.
"our killer balance"
Weather if its balanced to you or not doesn't matter to them, its what they feel like its balanced for their game, and they've held that belief for years.
This largely falls in line with our intended Killer balance.
You keep omitting this specific word.
This isn't them saying it's balanced, it's saying that it's at the point where they want it to be. A point they previously clarified as 'relatively even', where the killer is a real threat and survival is not guaranteed.
It's not balanced, it's slanted in the killers' favour to serve the horror theme.
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@top500spiderman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4051084#Comment_4051084
No, they said that 60% is where they want it to be, while specifically saying that it is only 'relatively even', and that it serves the horror theme.
"relatively even" means close to equal bro but not identical but if you want them literally flat out saying it here you go.
Looking at the bigger picture, there was an average kill rate of 60% across all MMR, while that average kill rate increased to 63% for high MMR. This largely falls in line with our intended Killer balance.
Again, they're saying that it's at the intended point, but they're not saying it's balanced.
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@top500spiderman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4051041#Comment_4051041
If you're going to believe BHVR must be right on these decisions because they have the data we don't, then their decision not to nerf perks and/or SWF must also be because they have all the data.
them nerfing perks and swfs directly is clearly not their approach to address them. They release killers like vecna instead, also i never said they were right about all there decisions because they have all the data. I said I'm pretty sure theirs a good reason they decide to balance the game around 60/40, since they have for years that doesn't mean they cant make a bad decision.
They also never have said that the 60/40 is a rate that applies to every single scenario, but an overall target, and its not their only game balancing metric.
they said that killers having 60% kr across all MMR largely falls within their "killer balance" so 40% should be applied to all MMRs and group sizes.
They never say '60% is a balanced rate'. It's relatively balanced (not absurdly broken like a 70 to 80 would be, while still keeping the killer a 'force to be reckoned with') and its their intended balance - not a normal balance metric, but what they go for.
Balance is subjective, 60/40 to the dev team is balanced. It was literally word for word stated.
Looking at the bigger picture, there was an average kill rate of 60% across all MMR... This largely falls in line with ourintended Killer balanceThis is literally stating 60% kill rate across all mmrs is what they deem the killer role to be balanced.
We try to keep Killers near a60% kill rateon average to keep matches relatively even and support the horror theme of the game, where the Killer is a force to be reckoned with and the survival is not guaranteed.There's no point in being delusional about words this is literally stating 60% KR is intended for in other words "close to equal but not identical" games. Which is why they said 60% largely falls within there intended "killer balance"
You're framing it in the best possible scenario for the survivors and worst for the killer. The survivor has no exhaustion to help escape, no anti-tunnel, no healing to help recover, etc. That's the thing about all out builds (on either side, really), under a perfect scenario they seem extremely powerful, but if another scenario occurs they can become very weak, very fast.
Which is why these builds are broken in the hands of SWFs, having coms, changes the game. Communication in Dbd against a killer opens up so many doors and opportunities.
It's possible that build is broken. BHVR has the data and would know for certain, but there's lots of reasons why the build might not succeed.
The reasons for it working and not working well, is not balanced.
This is literally stating 60% kill rate across all mmrs is what they deem the killer role to be balanced.
No, it isn't.
It's stating it's their intended balance, not that it's 'balanced'.
Their intent is for the killer to be overbearing to some extent, without outright pushing survivors out the door.
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@top500spiderman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4050966#Comment_4050966
this is a quote straight for a developer
"We try to keep Killers near a 60% kill rate on average to keep matches relatively even and support the horror theme of the game, where the Killer is a force to be reckoned with and the survival is not guaranteed."
"Looking at the bigger picture, there was an average kill rate of 60% across all MMR... This largely falls in line with our intended Killer balance."
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/kb/articles/433-developer-update-stats
They out right said its for balance.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4050968#Comment_4050968
I actually want the opposite, i want gen multipliers capped. And bloated killers NERFED. That literally does the opposite of affecting solo Q because solo Q players arent gen rushing abusing multipliers with coms. That actually helps solo Q,.
Outrageously smaller is a heavy exaggeration, is it less swfs then solos and duos in high mmr yes most likely.
If your solo Qing in high mmr your a good player, it makes no sense to call someone solo Qing in high mmr a bad player (i know u didnt say that). Swfs arent OP because the players in them are just, SOOO much better then solo Qers.
Their better because its 4 good players that have prepped, are coordinated and on coms. That changes everything. That's a unmatched level of gen rushing and a new a unmatched level of awareness. Which is why there a fat 8% above solo Qers.
48% is almost 10% above there targeted %, you cant really compare it to the Top killers when there stats are bloating off stomping non Swfs.
And four great players should beat most people. That's just logical. I'd never expect to stand a chance against a comp team. They
shouldwin.So a killer playing in high mmr should just feel helpless against a swf and just accept the fact hes gonna lose and theirs nothing he can do about it? Does that not go against the entire point of this game? Lmao, so nerf the bloated killers that are the only ones that stand a chance against a Swf in high mmr because there over performing against Solo Qers, but dont touch swf because 4 good players in a group are suppose to win? lmao
They out right said its for balance.
No, they said that 60% is where they want it to be, while specifically saying that it is only 'relatively even', and that it serves the horror theme.
They never said that 60/40 IS balanced. Only that that's where they want it to be.
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@top500spiderman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4050933#Comment_4050933
Its funny how your response to 2 survivors popping a gen in 20 seconds. is a sheet that further proves whos doing it.
The devs themselves have said that they aim for a 60/40 for balance on both sides. This is what they said. Theyve aimed for 60/40 for YEARS these are the people who have alllllll the data, and they've been sticking to their guns for YEARS. Im pretty sure theirs a GOOD reason why they are saying 60/40 is balanced after reviewing ALLLLLL their data for YEARS.
What in the F*** are survivors doing to pull almost 10% past the intended escape %??? the swfs in high lobbies are popping gens like popcorn. No way in the world should you be able to pop a gen in 24-26 seconds with 2 people AND have coms.
Skull merchant has the highest kill rate record EVER which was like 70% when she was BROKEN ASF and they nerfed her to the ground. Anytime a killers target % rises as high as SWFs are right now they get nerfed to the ground, because behavior has said countless times 60/40 is balanced.
Well SWFs are 8% above the targeted balance. According to the devs, 60/40 is balanced so 60/50 is not balanced.
Popping a gen as fast as 4 mans can shouldn't be possible it just shouldn't.
Im pretty sure theirs a GOOD reason why they are saying 60/40 is balanced
They don't.
They said it's the target they aim for, but not that it's 'balanced'.
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What is the problem, exactly?
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@NAERUUU said:
If you do not have anti-tunnel perks like DS, Dead Hard, Confidential and stuffs ?
Loop ? Play Chase ? Play The Game ?
Looping is lowkey 50% of the survivor gameplay (most important one)
I know it's weird not to be held by your hand by your perks at exhaustion and chase, or antitunnel still active 30 centuries after the unhook, but yes? Not having meta perks on the survivor side in chaos shuffle is precisely the goal, or in reality, what you want is you, to be able to play the meta, but that the killer remains on zero perks? If you want that, browse the lowMMR lobbies or play custom games. That's the very principle of the game mode, you don't have antitunnel meta perks and the killer doesn't have generator slowdown meta perks. I don't know what else to say honestly,
When no one is playing meta or being held hands, it's skill that speaks, or perseverance, I think that's what causes you problems. The Chaos Shuffle should be a permanent mode by the way
what you want is you, to be able to play the meta, but that the killer remains on zero perks?
Ironically, it's killer that gets to play meta, while survivors get deprived of the tools necessary to counterbalance it.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4049084#Comment_4049084
your saying things like they are facts but they are not, they are just you refusing to accept anything that goes against your own views. first you say "win a couple of matches" which isnt the case at all. Now your saying im omitting wins which you have no evidence whatsoever for this claim. its nonsensical opinions not fact. The fact is, when i did lose time after time for months and my kill rate dropped the actual stats showed kill rates were below 60%. its only recently they have hit the 60% the devs aimed for. Makes sense that the kill rate goes up when people finally started tunneling, now we have the current situation of killers tunneling and the 60% kill rate remaining steady.
Your again not applying your own arguments to the survivor side. The people that are losing due to being tunneled is not because they are being tunneled its because they are losing and the one constant is them in every match. By trying to debunk gen speeds as a reason for tunneling your actually debunking any complaint survivors have for tunneling. So for all the survivors that complain about being tunneled every match and struggle to escape….the one constant is you.
For years people have actually complained about doing gens and the only fun part is getting chased so it would make more sense that the 1 being tunnled is having all the fun and the 3 others sat on gens are doing the boring bit… thats a freebee, i wont be helping you out with any other of your aguments lol.
Lots have openly said they want 50 50 balance and dont think 40% is the right target to aim for so once again this argument is flawed. Ever wonder why survivors that loop the killer for 3 or 4 gens love it and they would do it all much if they could? its because they get chased and WIN. when the killer downs them, suddenly they dont like being chased anymore and want to do the easy bit of sitting on gens because they know they cant win by looping. funny how the most fun part of the game being chases becomes 2nd priority to gens when they dont win.
Its easy to know SWF teams when they admit it post match, i see them in the same lobby together and never with anyone else, they are friends on steam, thats without the plays they can do that would be impossible without comms like knowing exactly when the stealth is coming in an indoor map. Play the same people time and time again and you start to learn who the SWF teams are.
Again your making some very wild assumptions based on nothing. i didnt say anything about back to back SWF when i get 2nd SWF of the evening. i said SWF teams are a common place in my killer matches and solo players are rare. If your going to argue a point you shouldnt make up scenarios and assume….it makes an ass out of u and me.
Now your saying im omitting wins which you have no evidence whatsoever for this claim.
Listen: You are throwing an anecdote at the wall here. And according to this anecdote, you managed to get a string of losses that lasted you for months on end. At the same time, this is not reflected among a majority of players, it is not reflected in the stats. Even most newbie killers would likely still score wins here and there.
So your insistence on using a completely unverifiable anecdote as hard evidence of the issue of 'gen speeds' is baseless and preposterous.
The fact is, when i did lose time after time for months and my kill rate dropped the actual stats showed kill rates were below 60%.
This one should be verifiable though! I'd like to see the support for this claim, if you please.
its only recently they have hit the 60% the devs aimed for.
September 2022.
@McDoobz said:
In June, we brought major changes to the game. At the time, we stated that one of the main objectives behind the meta-shifting perk overhaul and base gameplay changes was to improve the overall kill rate (how many Survivors are killed each trial, on average). As stated in our most recent stats post , we did achieve that goal and as you’ll see in the below graphs, the kill rate continues to hover around the 59% to 61% range (up from a 51% to 53% range).
In the context of this new meta, many of you have been expressing that you’d like to see where each killer’s kill rate now stands. So, we’ve compiled the most recent data to share with you.
We’ve created two charts to help you visualize and analyze these stats:
- The first chart represents the kill rate broken down by killer, for all players (all Matchmaking Ratings), for the period of September 2022.
- The second chart also represents the kill rate broken down by killer for the same period, but only for players in the top 5% MMR.
Some things to keep in mind as you consult these charts:
- We rounded up some of the kill rates to make the charts below easier to read (only values ≥ 0.95 were rounded up). Scroll past the charts for exact kill rate values for each data set.
- It’s worth noting that many factors are taken into account when it comes to balancing killer powers and character perks, not only data.
- As always, we are monitoring our overall game balance on an ongoing basis and taking your feedback into account when evaluating whether or not design changes should be made. So please keep sharing your thoughts and experiences with us! We read you daily and relay your feedback to the appropriate people on a regular basis.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/GOYEKDMA1XC3/microsoftteams-image-2873-29.png
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/QBAVCNOU4QO5/microsoftteams-image-2875-29.png
EXACT KILL RATE & PICK RATE VALUES BY MMR
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/LRXX3PMFOM90/tablekr3.png
We hope you enjoy studying these numbers as much as we do!
Until next time...
The Dead by Daylight team
It was neatly at 60% at that point. That's not 'recent'.
The people that are losing due to being tunneled is not because they are being tunneled its because they are losing
Again, if the losing part was the problem, you'd see people be more upset about the fact that the game is intentionally balanced against them.
For years people have actually complained about doing gens and the only fun part is getting chased so it would make more sense that the 1 being tunnled is having all the fun and the 3 others sat on gens are doing the boring bit… thats a freebee, i wont be helping you out with any other of your aguments lol.
Do you actually read what I write, or do you just guesstimate?
Lots have openly said they want 50 50 balance
And how often do we see threads dedicated to demanding that, versus the amount of threads we see talking about gen speed nerfs? Topics about the 40/60 rate never get any traction because people don't care enough about it. Survivors are fine with losing, so long as they can have a good time during it.
Ever wonder why survivors that loop the killer for 3 or 4 gens love it and they would do it all much if they could? its because they get chased and WIN. when the killer downs them, suddenly they dont like being chased anymore and want to do the easy bit of sitting on gens because they know they cant win by looping. funny how the most fun part of the game being chases becomes 2nd priority to gens when they dont win.
Goomba fallacy ahoy?
thats without the plays they can do that would be impossible without comms like knowing exactly when the stealth is coming in an indoor map.
The most 'that's definitely a swiffer' play I ever made was in solo queue.
Also, it's pretty funny to insist that you keep getting matched with the same people but think it's not possible that these same people also get matched within the same pool. Must be swiffer.
Again, you don't have proof they're in a swiffer, much less that they're on comms.
Again your making some very wild assumptions based on nothing. i didnt say anything about back to back SWF when i get 2nd SWF of the evening. i said SWF teams are a common place in my killer matches and solo players are rare. If your going to argue a point you shouldnt make up scenarios and assume….it makes an ass out of u and me.
No, I'm illustrating how confirmation bias can play a role in twisting your perception. You're arguing completely out of emotion and anecdote, both of which are unreliable.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4049067#Comment_4049067
did i say i lost a couple of matches? no….i said i lost match after match, this went on for months until i had a choice, stop playing or find a way to even the odds. i found a way to even the odds and now my matches are pretty balanced, now i win some i lose some.
Using your same argument of losing to justify tunneling not gen speeds…. Survivors losing to tunneling is what makes them hate it. If survivors can loop a tuneling killer all match they wouldnt have an issue but its the fact they lose they have an issue with it. Works both ways
While BHVR stats show most people are not in SWF it does not reflect my matches as killer where its rare i got solo players. If your using BHVR stats then we have to consider the fact the even solo players are escaping 40% of the time and thats with killers tunneling, which shows tunneling isnt an issue. You either have to say BHVR stats are correct and tunneling isnt an issue because people are escaping or say they are not always accurate and dont always reflect players matches. which is it?
Fact remains that survivors want something (tunneling nerfed). They are the ones with the issue and unless they compromise on a solution then tunneling will remain. Nerf it to the ground without meaningful compromises and killers will walk away. Considering killers dont have bots to replace them at the moment i think its pretty important to keep killers playing.
did i say i lost a couple of matches? no….i said i lost match after match, this went on for months
This does more to indicate it's just confirmation bias hard at work. You omit your wins to focus on the losses. Unless you actually did lose that badly, which would be pretty embarrassing, considering the killrates never notably shifted, meaning no one else was having this issue.
Again, though, you just focus on the fact that you lost and then try to pin it on one specific factor while ignoring all others. You putting on a losing spree spanning months is not evidence of gen speeds being too high, because there's another constant in all your matches: You.
If someone spends 50 consecutive matches standing still and doing nothing, they'll also 'lose match after match', but you can hardly blame gen speeds for that.
So why are you certain it's gen speeds?
Using your same argument of losing to justify tunneling not gen speeds…. Survivors losing to tunneling is what makes them hate it.
Wrong. People hate tunnelling even if the killer loses, because it makes for really boring gameplay. One person gets to do nothing but chase, the other three get to do nothing but M1 on a gen.
If survivors cared so much about their winrates, they'd revolt against the 40% escape rate benchmark, but they don't.
While BHVR stats show most people are not in SWF it does not reflect my matches as killer where its rare i got solo players.
And how would you know that, precisely? Because it's a pretty bold claim to make in a game that does not show swiffers.
Also, again, confirmation bias. You could go for three, four matches against solos in a row and when you get your second swiffer of the evening: 'See? Back to back swiffers!'
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4049034#Comment_4049034
Balance is a scale, 60/40 is the balance the devs set…BALANCE. its not 50/50 even balance is 60/40 balance in favour of killer but its still on the scale of balance.
Pretty much everything you said there was flat out wrong lol. killers did get nerfed…skull merchant? Myers? they complained for years about tombstone, now thats gone people still complain.
You say most dont actually get SWF with comms but thats your experience…mine is very different and constantly get SWF teams to the point i get them repeatedly throughout the night sometimes multiple times in a row. Others have also seen this SWF influx so its not just me.
You have evidence of it being S tier killers that are more likely to tunnel? this is not the case in my matches because most S tier killers are speedy killers that bring pain res which is useless for a tunneling killer.
It doesnt throw the argument out the window at all because the reason i started tunneling in the first place was due to gen speeds. If that wasnt the case i would never have even considered tunneling, it would never have been part of my rule set to tunnel. Its like saying gen rushers will rush regardless of if tunneling is nerfed so the ones saying they gen rush to compete with tunneling have no valid argument because they will still gen rush.
Balance is a scale, 60/40 is the balance the devs set…BALANCE. its not 50/50 even balance is 60/40 balance in favour of killer but its still on the scale of balance.
You put 60 kg on one scale and 40 kg on the other, are they in balance?
Pretty much everything you said there was flat out wrong lol. killers did get nerfed…skull merchant? Myers? they complained for years about tombstone, now thats gone people still complain.
Legion got buffed. Clown got buffed. Singularity got buffed. Pyramid Head got buffed. Freddy got buffed.
All the lower tier killers have been pushed upwards to make them stronger and help them compete with S-tiers. You're acting like survivors got all other killers nerfed when the majority of them have only gone up in killrates. The only notable exceptions being Skull Merchant, whose gameplay was fundamentally broken, and Krasue, who was busted OP on release.
So no, you can't pin this on survivors 'getting other killers nerfed'.
You say most dont actually get SWF with comms but thats your experience
It's nothing to do with experience, it's BHVR's stats. Most players you encounter will not be in swiffers, and not every swiffer is on comms.
It doesnt throw the argument out the window at all because the reason i started tunneling in the first place was due to gen speeds.
No, it was due to losing, remember? You lost a couple of matches, and then you started tunnelling. You are now backwards rationalising it to be whatever it is that you want nerfed, but even if gen speeds never increased (Which they didn't), you would've found another excuse to start tunnelling because all it took to get you going that direction was losing.
It's not gen speeds that dictated your shift to tunnelling, it's losing.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4049004#Comment_4049004
- once again your ignoring the countless posts saying they dont tunnel and they cant keep up with gen speeds.
- You can debate if the 60/40 the devs want is the right move but thats the balance they want…slightly in favour of killers. if killers are not obtaining that then its not balanced in the way the devs want. so its not balanced.
- by saying survivors should show skill to counter tunneling thats not from a tunneler point of view….thats from a survivor point of view as a survivor that has no issues dealing with tunneling. You cant complain and say "get good" to a tunneler and not say it to the survivors that cant counter it. Tunneling is exactly what people wanted….constant chase. Well now the one that gets tunneled is in constant chase. People should be careful what they wish for.
- We are seeing blights and ghoul EVERY match because this is what people have brought onto themselves, they asked for other killers to be nerfed, they asked for no tunneling, no slow down perks, they join SWF with comms….the result is people will play S tier killers alot more which kills the variety of the game. I dont use S tier killers or slow down perks…instead i choose to tunnel to even the playing the field. would people rather i join the slowdown meta and use ghoul and blight instead of tunneling? There would be no end to the complaints if i did that either.
- As previously said if gen speeds got reduced and tunneling is allowed then i will still tunnel….my rules….BHVR rules….not yours or anyone elses. Same applies to if tunneling got nerfed, am i going to suddenly not gen rush because killers cant tunnel so i have more time to do gens? no. Which has been my point this whole time, you cant ask someone to play by imaginary rules and expect them to abide by them. Both issues should be addressed by the devs and both nerfed. Nerf gen speeds so no amount of rushing is detrimental to the killers time limit and nerf tunneling so no amount of tunneling is detrimental to the survivors gameplay. Or make tunneling and gen rushing against the rules….make them reportable and i will stop as it would be against the rules BHVR set out. Unless that happens then i play my way whatever helps me win as survivor or killer.
- Playing both sides if one was nerfed without the other i would have a field day no matter what because i would just jump ship, drop the 1 role entirely and only play the role that wasnt nerfed which would be survivor if killers had tunneling nerfed. Im already doing fine as survivor with the tunneling killers, i can only imagine how much my escape rate would rise if tunneling got nerfed and gen speeds remained the same lol
once again your ignoring the countless posts saying they dont tunnel and they cant keep up with gen speeds.
And you're disregarding everyone that says they don't have any issue.
You can debate if the 60/40 the devs want is the right move but thats the balance they want…slightly in favour of killers. if killers are not obtaining that then its not balanced in the way the devs want. so its not balanced.
No, that's not what balance means. You can say you're not hitting the mark the developers have set, but you can't say that it's 'not balanced'.
by saying survivors should show skill to counter tunneling thats not from a tunneler point of view….thats from a survivor point of view as a survivor that has no issues dealing with tunneling. You cant complain and say "get good" to a tunneler and not say it to the survivors that cant counter it. Tunneling is exactly what people wanted….constant chase. Well now the one that gets tunneled is in constant chase. People should be careful what they wish for.
You didn't read what I wrote.
We are seeing blights and ghoul EVERY match because this is what people have brought onto themselves
Did they, now?
they asked for other killers to be nerfed
Which they didn't get.
they asked for no tunneling
Which they didn't get.
no slow down perks
Which they didn't get.
they join SWF with comms
Which most actually don't get.
the result is people will play S tier killers alot more which kills the variety of the game.
So a bunch of people hallucinating some alternate timeline in which survivors get everything they demand are the reason we are seeing exclusively S-tiers?
I dont use S tier killers or slow down perks…instead i choose to tunnel to even the playing the field.
It's nice that you try to draw this dichotomy, but a lot of people also experience that it's specifically the slow-stacked S-tiers that are most likely to tunnel, which throws another spanner in your theory of 'it's all the survivors' fault'.
As previously said if gen speeds got reduced and tunneling is allowed then i will still tunnel
Which kind of throws the 'tunnelling is prevalent because gen speeds are too high' argument out the window, doesn't it?
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4048911#Comment_4048911
and is there any wonder why people are using these slow down perks so much? they are literally the only ones viable on a lot of killers other than tunneling.
evidence showing killers complaining about gen speeds and not tunneling is evident in these forums. If you choose to ignore these posts then thats on you but i have seen many.
If me losing match after match and having a kill rate below 60% is not evidence of the being unbalanced then survivors losing match after match getting under 40% by being tunneled is not evidence of the game being unbalanced….so if the answer is for me as killer is to essentially "get good" instead of tunneling then the answer to survivors is "get good" to counter it. I have, i counter it in my survivor matches.
Im just pointing out that no matter what a killer does, someone will and has complained about.
S tier killers are constantly being complained about Blight and ghoul every match seems to be a pretty common complaint in these forums but like i said, if you choose to ignore these posts then your obviously going to ignorant of that fact.
Fact remains, i will never ever follow other peoples made up rules. they can complain until the end of time about tunneling or slugging or camping or perks or what killer i play as….im going to play the game according to BHVR rules. Until BHVR says they are against the rules im going to continue as i always do and im going to enjoy my matches instead of complaining.
and is there any wonder why people are using these slow down perks so much? they are literally the only ones viable on a lot of killers other than tunneling.
Not what we were talking about.
Your counterargument against my mentioning that dependence on tunnelling has increased with slower gens was to claim that gen regression got worse. I indicated that it didn't. Claiming that these perks are 'the only viable ones' has nothing to do with the argument regarding gen speeds and tunnelling.
evidence showing killers complaining about gen speeds and not tunneling is evident in these forums. If you choose to ignore these posts then thats on you but i have seen many.
Actually, most of the people that say they don't tunnel also say they're doing fine without it, kinda the opposite of what you're claiming.
If me losing match after match and having a kill rate below 60% is not evidence of the being unbalanced
I mean, given that the 60% marker is an arbitrary point the devs decided on that has been stated to not actually be balanced, but instead be weighted in the killer's favour, yeah, you not attaining the level of imbalance the devs set out for you is not evidence of imbalance.
Also, again, your personal competence is a component in this equation that you are deliberately trying to omit. If you are a terrible killer player, your killrates are naturally going to be lower.
then survivors losing match after match getting under 40% by being tunneled is not evidence of the game being unbalanced…
And this is what I mean with taking things from the tunneller's perspective, because the balance of tunnelling isn't even the core of the argument. Tunnelling is incredibly bad for gameplay, that's why people want it gone.
Im just pointing out that no matter what a killer does, someone will and has complained about.
And I've seen complaints about No Mither. Does that mean we should disregard all killer complaints everywhere because RandomNameLotsOfNumbers threw a hissy fit over someone bringing Forced Penance once?
The outrage and tantrums thrown over the idea of tunnelling getting addressed (And the subsequent impact on the game's actual development) are nowhere near comparable to half a dozen salty survivors being upset someone brought Lightborn.
You are intentionally magnifying completely irrelevant, isolated individuals in order to play up a 'woe is me' attitude.
S tier killers are constantly being complained about Blight and ghoul every match seems to be a pretty common complaint in these forums
Yes, Blight and Ghoul -every match-. It's the 'every match' part that gets complained about. Ghoul gets some complaints, but Blight and Nurse have pretty clean slates.
Fact remains, i will never ever follow other peoples made up rules.
So basically, even if gen speeds were reduced even further, you'd keep on tunnelling?
Good to know.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4048835#Comment_4048835
gens have gone slower slightly but also the slow down perks have been nefed heavily so it would make sense why tunneling has increased.
I am a survivor main so im looking at it from both sides, not just a tunneler.
If you notice, the killers complaining about gen speeds are often the ones that dont tunnel… they try playing by survivor rulebook and thats why they complain about gen speeds. Tunnelers dont often complain about gen speeds.
Your talking to a tunneler lol i have openly said i am fine with tunneling being nerfed if gen speeds are nerfed too. Seems your the one that objects to this proposal which proves my point.
You misunderstood what i said regarding losing. I lost because i didnt tunnel…. time after time loss after loss. thats not balance. THEN i started tunneling and it turned into balanced matches where i win some i lose some. Nerf tunneling without gen speeds and im back to where i was before, losing match after match where the kill rate is well below 60%. no one said anything about removing the possibility of losing, its about balance…win some lose some which doesnt happen without tunneling
gens have gone slower slightly but also the slow down perks have been nefed heavily
After first being buffed. Pain Res went from 15% to 25%, then to 20%. Jolt just had its cooldown removed. Eruption went from 6% to 10%. Pop got changed from 25% of total to 20% of current (The 5% total was made -basekit-, by the way) then to 30, and then back down to 20. Overcharge first got a 200% regression speed boost, later adjusted to 130%, and then went from 5% to 4% regression on missing the skillcheck.
Really, the only perks that are worse than they were before are Call of Brine, Ruin and Pop, with only the former two being meaningfully worse. The rest are as strong as they were or stronger than they've ever been.
They've been 'nerfed heavily' from the point where making progress was practically impossible after they got massively overbuffed. But if we're going to argue this angle, then we could also point to the nerfing of MFT being the reason gen speeds need to go up.
Barring the CoBruption total lock-out meta, regression is stronger than it has been.
If you notice, the killers complaining about gen speeds are often the ones that dont tunnel…
As evidenced by…?
You misunderstood what i said regarding losing. I lost because i didnt tunnel…. time after time loss after loss. thats not balance.
It is, if you're just not as good as your opponents. But that possibility evidently doesn't even register to you.
You losing is not immediate evidence of the game not being balanced.
no one said anything about removing the possibility of losing, its about balance…win some lose some which doesnt happen without tunneling
It happens to everyone who doesn't tunnel.
The bottom line remains the same: Losing makes you tunnel, therefor your proposed solution to remove tunnelling is…?
@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4048852#Comment_4048852
To be fair the same narrative could be said for survivors regarding the crying….killers bring slow down perks they cry, killers tunnel they cry, killers slug they cry, killers camp they cry, killers go S tier killers they cry, killers bring lightborn or noed they cry, killers bring full aura read they cry.
Im not saying killers dont cry about what survivors do, some killers will but It all comes down to that all so famous rule book, play by my rules or we will cry about it.
As for who started it…. its the chicken and the egg. you might have started bringing toolboxes and such as a result of tunneling. I started tunneling as a result of gen speeds. Hence why BOTH need addressing.
Saying killers wont stop tunneling if gen speeds get nerfed is like saying survivors wont stop gen rushing if tunneling gets nerfed. Asking politely to not do something wont work, both have to be nerfed, not just put on faith that "we will stop if x, y or z gets done".
killers bring slow down perks they cry, killers tunnel they cry, killers slug they cry, killers camp they cry, killers go S tier killers they cry, killers bring lightborn or noed they cry, killers bring full aura read they cry.
Slow-down was only complained about when they were drastically overpowered. S-tiers don't get complained about to any notable extent. Lightborn is not complained about. NOED got complained about because it was overpowered. Full aura read isn't complained about, the removal of its counter is.
You are taking any singular complaint from any random person to build this narrative that killers aren't allowed anything when the only thing that gets any concentrated pushback is camping, tunnelling and slugging.
Sure, you're gonna cop some random players complaining about random things, somewhere across a couple hundred matches. But that does not reflect overall community sentiment, which has been incredibly complacent given how poorly survivors have been treated.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4048823#Comment_4048823
There is no evidence of that. in my experience i was getting balanced matches for a long time. Then suddenly im guessing MMR went up because i was getting SWF team all the time. solo players were rare in my matches. i started to lose constantly. i started tunneling and it turned heavily survivor SWF matches into balanced matches.
Not only that but if your going the route of basically saying "skill issue" then this applies to survivors too. They should be able to loop well enough to counter tunneling. As a survivor i do ok v tunneling killers because i can last long enough for the killer to drop chase or i use stealth.
Fact remains, killers dont have that much of an issue with gen speeds because they tunnel. Killers are not the ones with the issue here, survivors are because they dont like tunneling. As previously stated, the only thing that would stop me tunneling as killer is nerfed gen speeds. If tunneling got nerfed without gen speeds getting nerfed i simply wouldnt play killer as im sure many people would do the same. killers have pretty much said "ok we know you dont like tunneling so lets compromise, nerf tunneling and gen speeds and we have a deal". Survivors are the ones that have no give and take, they want but they wont give. Personally if i had an issue with someone doing something i didnt like i would ask them "why do you do it?" "what would make you not do it?" and i would take that under serious consideration, not just dismiss it.
There is no evidence of that.
Gens have grown slower, insistence on tunnelling has grown worse.
Not only that but if your going the route of basically saying "skill issue" then this applies to survivors too. They should be able to loop well enough to counter tunneling.
You never listen to the complaints or process them outside of a tunneller's perspective, otherwise you'd know why this doesn't fly.
Fact remains, killers dont have that much of an issue with gen speeds because they tunnel.
Also not true, since we get new demands for gen speed nerfs pretty much every week despite tunnelling being completely uninhibited.
killers have pretty much said "ok we know you dont like tunneling so lets compromise, nerf tunneling and gen speeds and we have a deal".
Nope, the deal has always been 'Survivors give up gen speeds, we keep access to tunnelling, and we'll half-heartedly promise to totally not abuse it!'
That is exactly what happened with 6.1. Gen speeds already got nerfed, multiple times, but we've seen more nerfs to anti-tunnel than buffs, and the insistence that tunnelling is 'necessary' only grows every time the game shifts further in killers' favour.
You basically said it yourself: I lose, I tunnel.
So the only way to get you to stop tunnelling is to remove the possibility of you losing.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4048816#Comment_4048816
clearly is necessary when tunnelers are saying the reason why they tunnel is because of gen speeds and openly say they are good with not tunneling IF they have time to spread hooks. i hard tunnel….Why do i do this? if i dont, gens get done and i lose, its that simple. Want me to stop tunneling? i have said what would make me stop….slower gen speeds. many killers have said the same. Dont want to listen? Thats why we are at this situation.
clearly is necessary when tunnelers are saying the reason why they tunnel is because of gen speeds and openly say they are good with not tunneling IF they have time to spread hooks.
Here's the problem: The worse you are as a player, the more time you need to spread hooks.
Which means that if we were to nerf the living daylights out of gen speeds (again), killers could just play worse and still demand access to tunnelling.
Which is kinda what already happened with 6.1.
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@Sp00kyb0b said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4048411#Comment_4048411
If you play twins with out slugging anyone, then you are not using Victor correctly, they are ment to slug and then for Charlotte to come and pick up and hook
May i suggest that you watch Lynxi play? shes a really good twins player -
If you play twins with out slugging anyone, then you are not using Victor correctly, they are ment to slug and then for Charlotte to come and pick up and hook
That's not slugging, that's downing.
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@Sp00kyb0b said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4047785#Comment_4047785
Im sorry to say so then, but you might have too high thoughts of your own skill level or you are still in "baby mmr" with your killers.
Have you considered the possibility that your personal notions about the state of game balance could be incorrect?
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@Classic_Rando said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4048161#Comment_4048161
There are plenty of tantrums about the 40% escape rate. They show up on this forum all the time.
Where?
Because I'm on these forums plenty, and I only see it brought up as a counter-argument to people complaining that 'survs OP'.
I never see it brought up on its own merit, in the way people talk about camping, tunnelling or slugging.
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@Aeltere said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4048188#Comment_4048188
This is just telling on the content you choose to consume. There are hours and hours of videos across platforms talking about the QoL issues killers face that don't mention survivor complaints a single time. Just because you don't see something from your very insulated perspective doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
And none of it ever makes its way here onto the forums, which is what we're talking about.
@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4048161#Comment_4048161
I did see people on these forums loudly complain when BHVR announced the kill rates are supposed to be 60%.
Some people said it was proof the game was killer sided, and some people demanded it be moved to 50%. Some people threatened to leave the game because they didn't like a 60% kill rate.
Some people said it was proof the game was killer sided
It IS proof the game is killer-sided, the devs literally rig it to be.
But declaring that it is killer-sided isn't the same as complaining about it being killer-sided. People mention that the game is killer-sided when killers demand further direct killer buffs. Buffs that, coincidentally, also never have anything to do with the issues you complain about not being allowed to complain about.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4048104#Comment_4048104
The problem is when we try to talk about making the gameplay fun for killers, the conversation gets an overwhelming amount of pushback.
Excessive hiding is unfun for killers, and we we SUPPOSED TO have a phase 1 update to address this problem, but survivors complained they are "just trying to survive", and got the entire thing nerfed so badly that BHVR might as well just revert the AFK crows to what they were before phase 1.
Bully SWFs are unfun for killers, but if people try to talk about that, we get told it's not really a problem, or "at least they aren't doing gens"
Gen rushing is unfun for killers, but if people try to talk about that, we get told "it's not real" or "that's not what gen rushing is"
Being forced to slug isn't fun for killers, but if people try to talk about that, we get told "slugging is worse for survivors" or "it's not really a problem"
Voice comms and SWFs aren't fun for killers, but if people try to talk about that, we get told "you can't punish people for playing with friends"
So really, when people say "making the gameplay fun", the vast majority of the time it's really "making the gameplay fun FOR SURVIVORS ONLY"
The problem is when we try to talk about making the gameplay fun for killers, the conversation gets an overwhelming amount of pushback.
No, the problem is that you never talk about stuff that's unfun for killers, UNLESS it is to disparage people for talking about problems on the survivor side.
No one brings these issues up on their own merit, they are always used to admonish others for talking about tunnelling and camping. The only thing killers bring to the forefront as an issue is gen speeds, which ultimately boils down to 'I lost, fix it'.
Your attitude is never 'This should be fixed, and this too', your attitude is always 'Your issues shouldn't be fixed because my issues also aren't fixed'.
THAT is what gets you the pushback.
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@Classic_Rando said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4048073#Comment_4048073
”They could honestly make the kill rate 90% and if they found a way to make the game actually fun for survivors to play while losing then people would likely not care about the kill rate stat.”
No, “honestly” that isn’t true at all. People complain about the game on both sides because they lose more often than they think they should. You are trying to make this way more complicated than it is. I understand now why the devs have such a difficult time making the game “fun” for people when they are getting such nebulous feedback about what makes the game “fun”. People are going to have more fun if they are winning and not losing - it’s quite simple.
People complain about the game on both sides because they lose more often than they think they should.
If survivors cared about winrates, you'd see them throw a tantrum over the fact that BHVR officially balances for a 40% escape rate, which means they are intentionally getting disadvantaged in balancing.
Survivors really don't care much about losing, it's about the way they're made to lose.
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@ConsAnthroid said:
This is the type of perk which is absolutely game changing when used correctly.
However the scenarios where it is actually worth using are quite rare and majority of players use it just because they can, resulting in them getting killed early.
Best example is Adam in Otz's video about Haywire.
If you use it for the sake of using it, you are actively throwing the game.
If you have it as a backup plan and use it every 10 games when it's actually needed it can singlehandely make killer lose.
This is very similar to Counter Force, but amplified.
If you cleanse all totems every game you are throwing, because you could do almost 2 full generators instead.
If you have it as a backup and use it when it's actually needed it really screws some killer builds.
You need experience, game sense and common sense to actually use perks like these effectively.This is the type of perk which is absolutely game changing when used correctly.
Thing is, pretty much every perk has a specific scenario in which they're 'game-changing', so this is not even a unique upside to Shoulder the Burden.
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@ConsAnthroid said:
Everyone knows that aura perks for Killers sucks, because Nurse can abuse them too much.
Current Haywire is literally useless, because Singularity exists…
Why behaviour just don't nerf the perks on the specifically problematic killers and let other ones use it no problem?
Keep 80% treshold of Haywire to just Singularity, Hag and Twins. On other killer this perk should not be as neutered.
Same goes for gen regression perks. ######### killers should have them stronger while strong killers should have them weaker (Blight, Nurse, Spirit).
Aura perks: just cut the duration on Nurse by half, if perk has no set duration then reduce range by 30%.
It is really simple and I don't understand why after 10 years we are still bottlenecked by couple of killer who can abuse a perk while the rest of the roster will have 0 value from it.
It's very simple stuff to program.
Edit: Remember Agitation + Starstruck? Nurse can't use any instadown perks because of this combo - which I don't mind actually.It's very simple stuff to program.
And then female survivors can't vault anymore, the Castlevania skybox loads during the offerings screen, and Demogorgon gets Bubba's chainsaw.
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Shoulder the Burden is a perk that does very little to begin with, with its value being entirely dependent on the killer maximising it. It also has a good chance of becoming unusable, since you effectively have to be on zero hooks to be able to use it, and you have to be the one to make the unhook.
It's basically a perk with an extremely high cost and a very situational pay-off that isn't even notably high. Heavy coordination in a swiffer can offset some of the high cost, which makes the perk climb ranks, but outside of that heavy coordination that ensures that you are the one to get to unhook someone on death hook, before you are hooked once, it's just a solidly D-tier perk.
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@CompetitifDBD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4047164#Comment_4047164
Yeah, maybe against the 60 something percent of people who don't know how her power works. She's horrible, and these stats aren't at all representative of her strength, more of just how bad majority of survivors are.
You do realise how hard you're leaning into the 'the stats say what I want them to say' thing here, right?
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How would people feel about her going to 4.6 m/s, and a bit of a 'kit expansion' by adding a second, maybe even a third rune that she can deploy for different effects?
Like maybe one that, when triggered, gives a bit of Killer Instinct and renders the survivor oblivious without them knowing, so you can have a jumpscare Hag?
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'How do you do, fellow survivors?'
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@CompetitifDBD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4047080#Comment_4047080
No they are not strong. What the hell are you talking about?
'They are statistically proven to be stronger'
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@CompetitifDBD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4047074#Comment_4047074
It's probability, not guesswork. Also preferably disregard the example completely and continue to lie to yourself
The example being Sadako and Freddy?
How's that an example? You personally decided they're bad killers, and then you concluded that the only possible reason for their high killrates must be 'survs bad'.
That's incredibly short-sighted. These killers may well be stronger than people give them credit, but their strengths might be harder to pick up on or master. Fewer people playing them means the dedicated one-tricks pull the KR up more due to their mastery of the killer.
I'm pretty sure we saw this with that one legendary Clown player, for example.
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@CompetitifDBD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4047039#Comment_4047039
There are 4 times more survivor players than killers
Thus they are 4 times more likely to not be very good. That's math, and it's very representative of why kill rates are so high on garbage killers like Sadako and Freddy (Freddy is the deadliest killer of the first quarter of 2025 btw, and his kit still isn't too powerful) Kill rates are high because most survivors don't know how to counter certain powers. Freddy got reworked, so the millions of casual survivor players who already aren't too experienced essentially have to learn a whole new killer. This isn't rocket science, ngl.
That's not statistical proof, that's guesswork.
EDIT: It's also missing that by the same logic, they're also statistically more likely to be good players.
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@CompetitifDBD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4046876#Comment_4046876
They are statistically proven to play better. There are 4 times more survivor players than killers, you're chances of getting a bad player is very unlikely
How are they statistically proven to play better, exactly?
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@CompetitifDBD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4046771#Comment_4046771
The stats are not realistic. Most survivors don't play well. Assuming you play against 4 good players. solo queue or not survivor is still better. I'd be happy to show you some games from my own records if you'd like me to prove it.
Most survivors don't play well.
But all killers do?
Why is the skill argument always a one-way street?
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4046781#Comment_4046781
There's no good empirical evidence to be used. I am talking strictly from my opinion. If you want empirical evidecne i can give you my survivor win rates and killer win rates, but they mean nothing, just like the stats you are using to suppo.
Even at "High MMR" we see Killers performing well.
This comes from the same stats i assume.
Im not going to argue back and forth. This is my opinion and i think many others share this opinion too. You are free to use your empirical evidence but dont think that it is facts.
'Empirical evidence' IS facts. That's what that entails.
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@angel_pellegrino said:
I main survivor. And even I load up into every chaos shuffle match fully expecting there to be slugs, running back to hook and tunneling. Because it's chaos shuffle. The killer doesn't have a full slow down build, aura build, a complimentary build to their killer. So they're entire strategy they built around their killer and their unique powers/abilities is gone. Not everybody has the skillset to beat survivors through sheer skill alone on a terrible perk load out. Not everybody has the time or dedication level for that. And I don't expect them to.
What I expect is for killers in shuffle mode to see gens flying (or know they're gonna start flying) and immediately go into catch up mode, running back to hook, tunneling and trying to slug out the match. I ain't even mad anymore. I'm just gonna come in, get my challenges done and get back to playing regular 1v4.
I use to play killer a lot more back in the day. And I cringe when I remember having some difficult matches with survivors bagging, nodding and staring at me over pallets after every missed swing. If I were a killer playing chaos shuffle, with a trash load out and terrible add ons, I'd probably be tempted to run back to hook, too.
How unlucky that it's only and exclusively killers that get off-meta builds!
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4044903#Comment_4044903
exactly the fact is thats my personal experience which many others have said they felt the same way.
I can only assume your either playing high to top tier killers or you have not been getting enough wins to get actual good teams
Using a legit tactic to inflate mmr beyond the skill level can be applied to literally anything….using sprint burst every match might inflate a survivors MMR beyond their skill level, or using swf with comms might have inflated a survivors MMR beyond their skill level which might be why some survivors that play SWF regularly struggle in soloq. Or that killers using S tier meta build to compete with 4 man swf swat teams have used S tier meta to inflate their MMR? Makes 0 sense to say something that is legitimatly in the game or a lgitimate tactic has inflated MMR
Not only that, but based on using tunneling to inflate MMR….how would explain it when i never used to tunnel? Based on my experience i raised my MMR without tunneling THEN hit the SWF squads over and over, so i dont know how tunneling could have been used to inflate MMR.
I can only assume your either playing high to top tier killers
My favourites are Pig, Dredge, Pinhead and Pyramid Head.
or you have not been getting enough wins to get actual good teams
That's Crogers' law.
Using a legit tactic to inflate mmr beyond the skill level can be applied to literally anything….using sprint burst every match might inflate a survivors MMR beyond their skill level, or using swf with comms might have inflated a survivors MMR beyond their skill level which might be why some survivors that play SWF regularly struggle in soloq. Or that killers using S tier meta build to compete with 4 man swf swat teams have used S tier meta to inflate their MMR? Makes 0 sense to say something that is legitimatly in the game or a lgitimate tactic has inflated MMR
If Sprint Burst every match consistently improved your winrates, that'd be indicative of Sprint Burst being OP. If tunnelling every match consistently improved your winrates, that's somehow relegated to a 'valid tactic'.
It is simply true that tunnelling to net yourself wins that your competence at chasing, pressuring and game sense won't get you will push your MMR upwards, to a point where you will find that this shortfall in these skills makes them feel insufficient. The problem with the claim of 'tunnelling is necessary' is that it's effectively a self-fulfilling prophecy: The more you tunnel, the more dependent you become on it.
An additional issue is that, in pretty much every conversation on these forums, killer skill is regarded as a singular static point, which somehow assumes that all players are at the exact same level. Forum killers see no issue with pointing at specific matches they've had where they felt the need to tunnel and then proclaim it as proof that tunnelling is necessary, without considering the possibility that someone more competent would likely be able to win that match without tunnelling, disproving a 'need' to tunnel.
And if anyone bucks that trend, well: 'You must only play S-tier killers, or go up against bad survivors'.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4044889#Comment_4044889
didnt say impossible, i said its needed….which it is. its needed to keep me playing lol. Before someone can get good enough to win without tunneling, slugging, camping then in order to win you do need to use these tactics. These are straight up facts…if someone is struggling to win without these tactics and they are on the brink of quitting the game then these tactics are needed to pick up some wins to help stop them quitting the game completely.
didnt say impossible, i said its needed….which it is. its needed to keep me playing lol. Before someone can get good enough to win without tunneling, slugging, camping then in order to win you do need to use these tactics. These are straight up facts
That's not facts, that's your personal conviction. I camped once in my life, against the first ever bully squad I faced, it did not work (it was within my first ever ten games, IIRC, so I was very new), never used it again and never tunnelled or slugged. I got my wins in.
Keep in mind that if you have tunnelled, slugged and camped, you've likely inflated your MMR above where your skill can naturally carry you.
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@Leon_van_Straken said:
Most players run BBQ with Lethal. Thats why it is up there.
So I will kindly ask. What build would be okay for you to go against.
You say that as if I have personally agitated against these builds.
You can run any build you want, so long as it is decently implemented and fairly balanced. New aura reading is not. If you want to keep them as broken as they are, that's fine, but then Distortion needs to be up to the task of levelling the playing field again.
You don't get to keep the nonsense on your side but then get mad when the opposing side gets a counter to it.
And if you want to argue that Distortion shouldn't exist, that's fine too, but then aura reading will need significant nerfs to be brought back in line. It is ridiculous to nerf survivor perks for the explicit reason that killer perks are proving too effective.
@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4043486#Comment_4043486
I have to say, whenever I see these comparisons pop up it feels a lot like the only "older" aura perk being considered here is BBQ, not the others.
BBQ, sure, had a minimum range and clear + effective counterplay, but that's not really true of other older aura perks. A Nurse's Calling lit you up right next to the killer and did not have particularly clear counterplay (if you knew it was in play you could play around it, but not to the same degree as BBQ + there was no way of really knowing), same thing with I'm All Ears.
Even Retribution used in hex builds has been just distance-agnostic aura with no real counterplay this whole time. Gearhead too, more likely to reveal you further away but there's never been counterplay to it even when it was bad.I also feel that "newer" perks are largely being only represented by Nowhere To Hide here, which is certainly overtuned and not restricted enough - there's no excuse for it still following the killer instead of being based around the generator - but I don't know that's true of most others.
Looking at some other newer aura perks, we have a very clear comparison in Friends Til The End and Alien Instinct, both of which have the same trigger and thus the same counterplay as BBQ and that are also restricted by only revealing one survivor at a time.
Lethal Pursuer trades the more normal guard-rails for being single-use, Darkness Revealed has awkward spacing and a cooldown to gate it, and frankly isn't good at the same time, Floods of Rage is very similar to Retribution in being a burst of mapwide aura reading on a reliable trigger in exchange for a low duration, Face The Darkness requires survivors to be outside your terror radius and is a Hex so it can be disabled, Awakened Awareness requires you to be carrying someone so your ability to act on the information is restricted…These perks all have the same kinds of guard rails as older perks did. The issue with Nowhere To Hide is that it is lacking proper restrictions to dictate its use, not that newer aura perks have fewer guard rails than older ones.
If anything, more newer perks than older ones have tells and giveaways to play around. The only real power creep of any kind with aura reading is just numerical, there are proportionally more newer ones than older ones- the design philosophy hasn't really changed.A Nurse's Calling lit you up right next to the killer and did not have particularly clear counterplay
While Nurse's Calling is indeed a solid pick for a less restricted older perk, it is still contingent on a survivor action, which made it a bit more niche, and gave survivors control.
same thing with I'm All Ears.
I do realise that I should be a bit clearer, because I'm All Ears fulfils an entirely different function. Nurse's Calling, BBQ & Chili and all the rest are perks that help you locate survivors so you can start a chase with them. I'm All Ears is wallhacks during a chase, it is not used to locate survivors.
Retribution
Again, contingent on a survivor action, giving the survivor control. This is probably the closest thing to new aura reading, but then, Retribution is a hex. Which shows how heavily the ability to reveal aura with such little restriction used to weigh.
Gearhead
Same thing as Retribution, contingent on a survivor action, can't hit a hiding survivor.
And that's the specific thing: If a survivor is crouching in a corner somewhere, trying to stay out of sight while the killer stalks nearby, the only two of these perks and BBQ that could hit you are Nurse's Calling (Only if you're healing) and Retribution, which is a hex.
I'm All Ears can't hit you, Gearhead can't hit you, Nurse's Calling can only hit you if you're healing up, and at that point, the noises would give you up too.
You absolutely can hide from I'm All Ears and Gearhead and Nurse's Calling and BBQ.
You cannot hide from NTH, or Ultimate Weapon, or Friends 'til the End, or Darkness Revealed, or Weave Attunement, or Floods of Rage, or any of the other options. The only one of the old perks that did not allow you to hide from it is Retribution, and that one was then considered so strong that it had to become a hex to compensate.
But right now, it is assumed that the killer can just see your aura 24/7, and, evidently, that there should be an expectation that they will. That's why the aura-tunnelling blame was shifted from killer perks giving way too much intel to Distortion blocking it.
It's a paradigm shift. It's power-creeped so bad that the game's fundamental perception has changed.
I'm not okay with that. Either Distortion needs to make a comeback, or the aura reading needs to be curbed. Hiding should be an option.
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@Leon_van_Straken said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4043478#Comment_4043478
So… it would be better if all Killers just ran 4 slowdown perks?
Running Aura peerks is nice to get information ofcourse. But you will realize pretty fast that you miss other things. Full Aura Huntress is strong but the Gens fly left to right.
Now you could say… that the Killer could run Hexes… but Thrill + undying + Devour + Penti is hated aswell.
So… we go for an Endgame build? But most people hate noed because it is Skillless…
Aura Perks need to be strong or they will be just not worth it to equip when you could take slow down perks.
Running Aura peerks is nice to get information ofcourse. But you will realize pretty fast that you miss other things.
Yeah, that's kinda the point of buildcrafting. You give up on some things to gain other things.
Now you could say… that the Killer could run Hexes… but Thrill + undying + Devour + Penti is hated aswell.
So… we go for an Endgame build? But most people hate noed because it is Skillless…
Both of these are whataboutism that don't fix the problem with aura reading's power creep. Not to mention that boiling Endgame build down to just NOED is incredibly disingenuous.
Also, these builds are fixable with proper design so if you really care about that, bring that up in their own threads.
Aura Perks need to be strong or they will be just not worth it to equip when you could take slow down perks.
BBQ & Chili gives aura reading but won't just light you up right next to the killer, and it has clear and effective counterplay. Lethal Pursuer has none of these guardrails, neither does Nowhere to Hide.
BBQ & Chili, by all accounts, should be F-tier compared to those two. It's still, according to Nightlight, the 7th most popular killer perk.
If LP and NtH were removed overnight, BBQ would be the 5th most popular.
They don't need to wreck the game's core functions to have a place.
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@Leon_van_Straken said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4043438#Comment_4043438
Well I don´t understand how my teammates rat me out with a perk, to be a reason to nerf a Killer perk?
The problem was everyone could take it and it came to the point that everyone has to take it or you have to suffer for selfish choices.
Aunt Edith says: If something is so strong that you have to take it or you have to suffer than it must be op.
Well I don´t understand how my teammates rat me out with a perk, to be a reason to nerf a Killer perk?
They don't.
The default is that the killer doesn't get to see your aura and has to look for you.
The fact that you pin the blame on Distortion for returning the game to its base state is indicative of how much aura reading has been power-crept to be the new standard, to the point where you think someone NOT being high-vis is the actual problem, rather than the killer getting a live feed of your location.
Your entire perception of how the game works has been shifted because aura reading perks have escalated so badly that they foundationally change how the game works.
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@Leon_van_Straken said:
No no just fine. But it is much easier to discuss with someone if they are on the same level of information. (I hate the "You are just nostalgic or you are lying because you can´t prove your claims, while I try to explain something that happend in the past)
The time of the distortion meta was one of the worst times in which I played DbD and I tell you that as Survivor main. If I went solo I was suprised. It seemed that every game I was found first by lethal pursuit and I tell you I like a good chase. But its getting suspicious if the hardest tomes for yourself are the repair Gens or hit Skill check ones because you get found first and after that tunneld out.
So I looked for the reason for the increased tunneling and I came to the conclusion. Ofcourse it seemed that the Killer found me first all the time because I was the only one they could find.
I got really frustrated when my two mates which I played with started to use Distortion aswell and most of the time me and the random were dead while they didnt got a single hit all game long while crouching behind a stone next to the gen while I got found by no where to hide 20 miles away.
So… conclusion either they drop the perk or I join them. Well… they didn´t want to drop the perk so I joined them and boy… I can tell you it was a disaster. Either we faced a full slow down Killer and our perk became useless or the Killer dced the second their lethal pursiur didnt went off.
Yes I had Dcs over Lightborn aswell but to be fair. I can understand the frusttration in a Killer more if he plays a build to stack and finish quick chase after quick chase and his whole build becomes useless because of a perk over a survivor which only started the game with the intend to run behind the Killer to blind him. (Just for Information I don´t have much respect against dcs for what ever ingame reason, except hostage holding cheaters as I don´t like to give up.)
Ofcourse it seemed that the Killer found me first all the time because I was the only one they could find.
Strong argument for nerfing the crap out of the post BBQ aura reading perks because if 'handholding' is such a crime, the aura reading perks are the godfather.
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@Junylar said:
If survivors can have one perk that turns off the whole set of killer abilities, how about giving the killer a perk that ignores Endurance or stuns completely as well? Not just "making stuns shorter, and only from pallets", but completely turns off the ability to stun the killer, just like the old Distortion completely turned off every aura reading perk and ability of the killer.
Not a fair comparison. One's basekit material, the other is in perks.
Plus, as mentioned, Lightborn exists.
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@Massquwatt said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4042424#Comment_4042424
After thinking about it some more, it can still get abused. If progress it measured purely from time spent doing conspicuous actions then somebody can just cleanse a dull totem to 90%, stop and redo it again to get stacks which would quite literally be a case of somebody doing nothing useful to use a perk. You either have to ratchet the requirements up so you'd have to have to do generators to gain stacks making everything else moot or you leave it at chase time which is a far easier measurement to balance around.
Or, in the case of totems, only make them give you progress on your stack when you complete the action.
Which I seem to recall is already the case for AFK detection?
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4042479#Comment_4042479
I'll admit to being more selective with what I was talking about than I should've been, but I do stand by the comparison to Distortion absolutely not working for any perk other than the one Distortion still hard counters.
To start: I do personally carve a distinction between what I'd call passive, and what I'd call accessible. Perks which do have an activation trigger, but ones that you're very likely to hit as a consequence of regular play, I would call accessible rather than passive. You still have to be engaging with the game for them to trigger, where passive perks are just equipping the perk and they function.
(Distortion, to keep on topic for the actual comparison, is now accessible where before it was passive)Where I should've been more specific and did misspeak is in the rest, because yeah, there are some passive aura perks other than Lethal. I do still stand by discounting perks that have like, incidental aura reading, like Undying, but something like Bitter Murmur does count as passive aura reading.
What I meant to say is that nothing hit the level of "perfect hard counter" of Distortion, which is the claim I was responding to. None of the passive tools are even close to perfect, and even the accessible ones are still meaningfully gated; BBQ does not perfectly hard counter stealth and it's a very silly claim to say that it does.
Aura reading, as a class, tends to be meaningfully gated and restrained by its numbers. Comparing that to old Distortion is what I meant to say had no basis, because there's a world of difference between "you get auras after a hook, which is normal gameplay, but only on survivors further than forty metres away and only for four seconds" and "you block all meaningful auras for existing in the trial."BBQ is admittedly a little more restrictive than some others, but most relevant aura reading is far more restricted in its effect than old Distortion was— even the ones you listed are more meaningfully gated than the literal action ascribed.
A Nurse's Calling, for instance, is gated by a survivor action and a distance alongside injuries, same with Deerstalker having a distance and requiring slugging instead of just activating on a down (to contrast with a non-aura tool like Infectious Fright for example).Distortion was meant to be restricted (with its token system), but meaningfully wasn't, it effectively got to be a perfect aura block for no real engagement. Aura reading tools just aren't on that level for the most part, and any that approach it tend to be the problematic ones that get nerfed.
…Though admittedly I'm still waiting for Nowhere To Hide to be nerfed.TL;DR the point is that aura reading is gated with meaningful numbers + systems keeping it in check, and Distortion wasn't, so the comparison just did not make any sense.
but most relevant aura reading is far more restricted in its effect than old Distortion was
This is where I really disagree, and I think this is also where Distortion's history is relevant.
Distortion got updated to its 'problematic' form in 6.1, in July 2022. It did not get marked as problematic until very shortly before its nerf, which is two years later. Up until that point, it was a complete nothing-burger.
So if Distortion didn't change, what did?
Well, we got Lethal Pursuer, we got Nowhere to Hide, we got Floods of Rage, we got Weave Attunement…
Up until then, the primary source of aura reading was BBQ & Chili, which has a universally telegraphed use condition and ONLY works on those who are far away from the killer. You can also argue I'm All Ears, which only works in chase.
But Lethal Pursuer is free and uncounterable at base.
Nowhere to Hide reveals all those nearby and it's untelegraphed. Floods of Rage reveals all in disregard of their distance to the killer. Weave Attunement reveals all within item radius in disregard of their distance to the killer.
The old aura perks were heavily restricted with specific uses that left room for play. The new aura perks are just autopilots. And that led to the rise of Distortion. In a way, this also neatly ties in with the following:
TL;DR the point is that aura
readingis gated with meaningful numbers + systems keeping it in check, and Distortion wasn't, so the comparison just did not make any sense.Distortion is entirely contingent on the use of these aura reading perks. It only works in the exact same situations that the perks it counters do, so it really carries the same restrictions. If the aura reading doesn't fire, neither does Distortion.
But more importantly than that, Distortion can only ever barely do more than reset the game to base state, which is by definition, not overpowered. Its power and prominence scales with the power of the perks it counters since that is its only function. That is the restriction that it faces. It is not a stealth perk like Lucky Break or Dance With Me, which do something of their own and provide an actual advantage.
It just sets the game to default and nothing more than that. That is Distortion's restriction.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4042456#Comment_4042456
If you like, I don't mind that reasoning.
This does unavoidably mean Distortion is also still passive now, since being chased is a regular part of gameplay that doesn't require any deviation.
That is part of why Distortion's current design is fine, because it's now in line with how a lot of activation triggers work; it's something you do have to do, but that something is part of regular gameplay. It isn't passive (in my opinion), but it's accessible.it's something you do have to do
That's not true, actually. It's a natural consequence of the game, but being chased is not beneficial to the survivors. It's not something they 'have to do'. It's more akin to getting aura reading when a gen is completed.
That's why conspicuous actions would be more logical, because those are actually things that they 'have to do'.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4042448#Comment_4042448
I mean. No.
There's no way of arguing even the overtuned aura reading tools in the game at any stage were passive at all, let alone insanely passive.
I think the only passive aura reading in the game right now is Lethal Pursuer, and coincidentally that's the one Distortion hard counters. Every other aura reading tool in the game has a trigger.
You could maybe make the argument for something like Undying being passive, but I'd like to do you the courtesy of assuming that isn't what you're saying here. Any relevant aura tool has both a trigger and a timer, often having a distance requirement as well.If you want a killer tool that actually represents the same idea and is problematic for the same reasons as old Distortion, it's Lightborn.
Sure, with the strictest reading of passive, it would be only Lethal Pursuer, but the others' triggers are baked into the normal game loop. It's not like invocations, where they require you to go out of your way to enable them. Most of them occur automatically in the process of the killer going about their gameplay without any deviation.
If the activation requirement is doing something you were going to do anyway, that's not really an activation requirement in any relevant sense.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4042403#Comment_4042403
I'm not the person you're discussing this with overall, of course, but I do have something to say about the idea about the idea of Distortion charging on Conspicuous Actions instead of chases.
My issue with this suggestion is that I don't think there's a satisfying middle ground for anyone there. Tokens charging via doing generators means each token has to take a pretty long time to grant, otherwise we run the risk of being right back where we started with Distortion being a perk that just flat turns off aura reading permanently.
The issue with old Distortion in my opinion wasn't rat playstyles, I don't even think that's really the reason BHVR nerfed it. The issue was that it was a completely passive perfect counter to an entire class of tools on the opponent's side, and that's just not great game design.It wasn't meant to be as perfect as it was, that's why it had the token/recharge system to begin with, but the token system was so lenient and the recharge trigger so passive that it functionally did just disable aura reading completely.
Let's take a step back and ask a question. What is Distortion actually meant to do? My answer is that it fundamentally does two things: It provides some protection against aura reading, and it provides some information about what aura reading the killer brought, being currently the only aura blocker that does the second part.
Aura blocking (and indeed any stealth effect) should never be considered a way to avoid the killer for the entire match, just delay chases or perform specific actions safely, so I don't really see the issue with Distortion activating from chases. You should expect to be chased in an average match, so you will get tokens back, and Distortion will delay the first chase to allow you breathing room and the ability to position, as well as giving you information about what the killer's running.
Sure, you could balance the perk around gaining tokens from generators, but I don't think that regeneration speed would be particularly satisfying for survivors. I think the perk's in a better spot right now.That's not to say I wouldn't buff Distortion, though. I've maintained for a while it'd be fair to give it both tokens at the start, so you've got a bit extra breathing room if the killer brings Lethal Pursuer.
The issue was that it was a completely passive perfect counter to an entire class of tools on the opponent's side, and that's just not great game design.
The tools in question being insanely passive perfect counters to an entire playstyle, mind you.
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@Massquwatt said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4042367#Comment_4042367
I'm gonna say no on the conspicuous actions because numbers wise that's a lot harder to balance around. The problem with balancing around that is by this image alone the times vary wildly depending on what you're doing, having the requirement to gain a stack be too low then people can effectively just sit on gens or abuse totem blessing to gain "technically" free stacks of distortion. Have the requirement be too large then Distortion is effectively rendered useless.
Frankly, it's just easier to keep the chase requirement because you're paying for the stacks by putting yourself out there in the killer's attention. A simple give and take. If anything I think Distortion should be given an activation button so you can toggle it on/off at your own discretion so your stacks are only eaten when you want them to be.I'm gonna say no on the conspicuous actions because numbers wise that's a lot harder to balance around.
How?
Even with 100% uptime, Distortion is not overpowered. It is a counter-perk whose power is limited by the build opposite it. It only ever blocks aura reading and returns the game to the default state.
The problem with balancing around that is by this image alone the times vary
wildlydepending on what you're doing, having the requirement to gain a stack be too low then people can effectively just sit on gens or abuse totem blessing to gain "technically" free stacks of distortion.Why would 'free' stacks of distortion be a problem if they're contingent on survivors actively engaging with the game?
'Perk functions if you play as normal' doesn't read like a problem to me.
Frankly, it's just easier to keep the chase requirement because you're paying for the stacks by putting yourself out there in the killer's attention. A simple give and take.
Not really. A perk whose only purpose is to keep the killer from finding you with zero effort requiring you to let the killer find you in order to function is essentially an oxymoron of game design.