KingOfGhost
KingOfGhost
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@pidgeon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4114743#Comment_4114743
You're telling me.. I can parry Xeno!?
We have parry in DBD before GTA 6
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For some reason I feel like those changes are to test killers bots and the use knight guard a test dummy to see how they work against survivors
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@Rickprado said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113893#Comment_4113893
I wouldn't be bothered so much for the nerf if they just compensate it in some form with buffs in other parts of his kit. Maybe it can be unintuitive for begginer players? Maybe, But then we would have much worse cases whose need urgent attention (Lich, Sadako, Legion, Artist, Skull Merchant, etc etc). Why always the Knight?
It feel they've just regret the Knight "fix" change and went back to how it was, despite not being strong as other killers are.
It's seem like kinght be the new Pig
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To my knowledge you can still just hug the drop pallets and windows and don't waste any resources so this is pointless
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@supersonic853 said:
Knight needs more counterplay than half the high tiers when they get to you i guess.
I think is overkill. Guards have so many drawbacks and ways to counter them that feel pointless. If any i think they should buff them.
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The Knight
- Dropping a Pallet while being Hunted by a Guard now causes the Guard to path around the Pallet
- If the resulting Guard Path is greater than 48m the Guard will abandon the Hunt
- Dropping a Pallet on a Guard now causes the Guard to move through the Pallet
What the point of it ?
- Dropping a Pallet while being Hunted by a Guard now causes the Guard to path around the Pallet
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Right now, accessibility is mostly a problem for a few specific Killers because of how unique their gameplay is. But I think this could become a much bigger issue later on.
The devs have already shown that they want to add more environmental effects, like weather, that can affect both what you see and what you hear. If that becomes a bigger part of normal gameplay, some players with hearing or visual impairments could end up having a much harder time playing.
That’s why I think it would be better to start working on these accessibility problems now instead of waiting until they become worse.
DBD has already taken a long time to add some accessibility features in the past, so it would make sense to prepare early and then adjust those features when bigger updates come out.
For deaf or hard-of-hearing players, the best idea I can think of is a very simple visual sound indicator.
For example, if a sound comes from the left, a small part of the left edge of the screen could lightly flash or change color for a moment. Same thing for the center or right side.
It wouldn’t show the Survivor.
It wouldn’t show an exact direction.
It wouldn’t show distance.
It would just give a very general idea of where the sound came from.
Something like:
Left / Center / Right
And to keep it fair, it could actually be less sensitive than normal hearing.
For example, if an average player could barely hear a Survivor from far away, the visual indicator wouldn’t activate yet. It would only show once the sound became louder and more obvious.
So instead of giving deaf players better tracking, it would actually give them less accurate information than someone with normal hearing, while still giving them something to work with.
The point isn’t to tell the Killer:
“The Survivor is exactly over there.”
It’s just to communicate:
“You heard something somewhere on your left.”
I think something like this would be perfect for the Beta tab. BHVR could test the range, sensitivity, colors, and how accurate the direction should be, then adjust it if it feels too strong.
Accessibility doesn’t have to mean making the game easier. It can just mean giving players another way to receive information that other players can already hear or see.
Small note: I use AI to help me write these posts because my English is not very good. I’m not using it to make arguments for me or pretend these ideas are not mine. I just want to make sure my point comes across clearly and people can understand what I’m trying to say.
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Here is a stronger version that responds directly while keeping the discussion focused on accessibility and balance.
So, in other words, should we exclude players from experiencing a Killer they like simply because they were born with physical limitations? Should we just tell them, “We don’t need to make the game more accessible for you. Just don’t play that Killer and move on”?
I don’t think that should be the answer. If reasonable accessibility options can let more players enjoy a Killer without giving them an unfair gameplay advantage, then those options should be considered.
I understand the argument that the Killer player chooses which Killer they play, while Survivors cannot choose which Killer they face. But I don’t think that means Killer-specific accessibility needs should automatically be considered less important.
Choosing a Killer does not remove the accessibility problem. If someone really enjoys Spirit, for example, but cannot properly use audio cues because of a hearing impairment, telling them to simply play another Killer is not really an accessibility solution. The point of accessibility is to reduce unnecessary barriers so more people can experience the same content.
That also does not mean Spirit should receive perfect visual tracking or anything that gives additional information. A visual audio system could be designed to represent roughly the same information a hearing player already receives, while keeping the same uncertainty and limitations.
And I agree that general Killer accessibility should probably be the priority where possible. Things such as visual sound cues, camera shake reduction, better input options, clearer power UI, contrast settings, FoV options, and customizable visual indicators could benefit many Killers rather than only one.
The FoV option and aura/scratch-mark customization are good examples of progress. I’m not saying Killer players have received nothing. I’m saying there are still areas where accessibility could be expanded.
The mobile visual-audio system is also exactly the kind of feature I think would be worth testing on the main game. It does not necessarily need to be copied directly. Put a version in the Beta tab, test how accurate it is, determine whether it gives too much information, adjust the range and directionality, and collect feedback from both disabled players and the wider playerbase.
That is what the Beta tab seems perfect for.
The goal shouldn’t be to make a Killer easier to play. It should be to make sure a player is struggling because of the Killer’s intended gameplay difficulty, not because important information is only available through a physical ability they may not have.
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I do believe they will allow the community to use and edit the basic model power addons and items of killer and survivors, the map and they will allow to edit them so if we can do that then the community can make tutorials for the game and made some fixes
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@GroovieAshes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4099900#Comment_4099900
Play while you wait essentially does the same thing for High MMR Killers without splitting the que.
Not necessarily. “Play While You Wait” preserves your place in the Killer queue while you complete a Survivor match, but Behaviour has not confirmed that it keeps High-MMR Killers in a narrower matchmaking range or produces opponents closer to their MMR.
It may help queue balance indirectly by moving some waiting Killer players into the Survivor pool, but that is not the same as creating a separate high-MMR queue or preventing the matchmaking range from expanding.
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@GroovieAshes said:
Well, we could probably have something close to effective MMR but it's more important to split the que with an event every other week.
Several years ago they actually did try to implement a decent MMR system and the High tier sweat Killers had extremely long ques. Now that we have play while you wait system, it might actually work.
I simple fix will be to give tou the option ether for quick games or game closes to your mmr.but the will never fo that
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Behaviour has not officially published the current minimum and maximum MMR values.
Based on datamining and community research, the commonly cited estimates are:
- Minimum MMR: approximately 0
- Starting MMR: approximately 650
- Maximum MMR, or hard cap: approximately 2,100
- High-MMR range: approximately 1,800 and above
It is important to note that 1,800 is not believed to be the maximum possible MMR. Behaviour has used 1,800+ as a definition of “High MMR” in published statistics, while the estimated hard cap is closer to 2,100.
A commonly suggested breakdown is:
- 0–649: lowest or protected range
- 650–899: new or lower-MMR range
- 900–1,399: general matchmaking range
- 1,400–1,799: higher-MMR range
- 1,800–2,100: high-MMR range
However, these exact values are not fully confirmed by Behaviour. The 0 minimum, 650 starting point and 2,100 hard cap mainly come from datamining and community testing, so they may change without being publicly announced.
The safest conclusion is that the estimated MMR scale runs from 0 to around 2,100, new players begin near 650, and Behaviour currently treats 1,800+ as High MMR.
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Behaviour has not published the current MMR expansion intervals or the exact formula used by the matchmaker.
However, during the 2022 matchmaking tests, Behaviour stated that the default system used roughly the following values:
- Initial search range: approximately ±50 MMR
- Maximum search range: approximately ±500 MMR
- Time to reach the maximum range: approximately five minutes
They should not be treated as confirmed values for the current 2026 matchmaking system, since Behaviour has since adjusted factors such as the maximum search range, expansion speed and effective high-MMR cap.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4099569#Comment_4099569
Not sure where you got your info from but the MMR rework is still in the works. Mandy just mentioned it the other day.
Try to keep the conversation focused on the ideas in the post.
As for matchmaking, even if the developers make some changes—and do not abandon them like many other things they have said they were working on—they are not going to separate matchmaking into ranked and casual modes, nor should they.
They are also unlikely to make matchmaking prioritize anything other than how quickly players can find a match. Overall, it will probably not change in any meaningful way.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4099553#Comment_4099553
The fact is that within your idea is the possibility of two survivors on death hook with no gens done and the survivors getting debuffed. You seem unwilling to just say "at 3 gens done" and that feels pretty intentional. It also should be 3 gens done with no hooks, not 5 hooks. 5 hooks isn't a bad number to be at mid match. That's just normal mass progression.
If all four survivors have reached two hook stages while five generators still remain, then matchmaking has once again done a terrible job by pairing weak survivors against a strong killer, or the survivors have made nothing but mistakes.
Just got out of yet another match like this. One of the survivors had 6k hours so it wasnt a baby lobby but if the reason is "that's matchmaking" then why do you want global survivor debuffs in-match instead of better matchmaking? If the reason is "they made mistakes" well then, so did the killer in your scenario.
You are not going to choose a key over every other item simply because you might eventually need the hatch, and you know that.
Do I? Becuase I bring a key into my matches. It has multiple uses but it's a last ditch option as well. And one of my SWF mates can pick it up if I die. Between a key and a hatch offering we usually get someone out of hopeless matches.
The difference between completing three generators and completing 270 total generator charges is:
- Survivors can complete three generators and still have at least one additional generator close to completion.
- With the charge-based system, if the killer regresses a generator and the survivors’ total progress falls below 270 charges, the slowdown is removed until they reach the 270-charge threshold again.
Before you bring up the unrealistic scenario of survivors spreading 270 charges across all seven generators again, the worst realistic scenario for survivors would be completing one generator and spreading the remaining progress across three other generators. In that case, each of those three generators would have around 60 charges of progress.
The developers have made it clear that they are satisfied with the current matchmaking system and do not intend to change it. In an ideal version of Dead by Daylight, players would be able to choose between faster matchmaking and more skill-based matchmaking, but the developers will probably never add that option.
I am glad that you and your friend find value in keys. However, keys remain one of the least-picked and least-used survivor items in the game, and most players do not choose them.
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I understand the point you are making and your concerns. The best addition I can make to the original idea is this: if one survivor dies before any other survivor has been hooked, all remaining survivors gain a 40% repair-speed bonus. Any stronger mechanic than that could probably be abused.
We both know that the developers do not have a good record when it comes to buffing or reworking weak killers. They gave Ghost Face only two additional seconds of his power, gave Doctor a 0.5-second improvement, and we are still waiting for the Skull Merchant rework.
The scenario you keep bringing up is unrealistic. No normal match will have 270 charges of generator progress evenly spread across all seven generators.
If all four survivors have reached two hook stages while five generators still remain, then matchmaking has once again done a terrible job by pairing weak survivors against a strong killer, or the survivors have made nothing but mistakes. In either case, matchmaking needs to change because it currently prioritizes finding matches quickly over creating fair matches.
Survivors need a comeback mechanic when only two of them remain. If they have not already completed three generators by themselves, they may still be able to finish the final generator.
However, when more than one generator remains and only two survivors are alive, they could play slowly and carefully. With the repair-speed bonus, they could complete a generator in around 64 seconds, even without any additional perks or items.
Survivors are at their strongest when all four are alive. When three remain, they lose some strength, but the match is still manageable. That is the reality, unless you are arguing that survivors automatically lose the moment one teammate dies.
Yes, you can bring a key and try to escape through the hatch, but neither you nor the other survivors normally enter a match expecting to lose and become the final survivor.
You bring a flashlight to make saves and possibly waste the killer’s time. You bring a toolbox to repair generators faster or sabotage hooks. You bring a med-kit to heal yourself. You are not going to choose a key over every other item simply because you might eventually need the hatch, and you know that.
When the developers increased pallet density, did they do it simply to make survivors win, or did they do it to give survivors more time to enjoy chases and participate in the match?
The slowdown I am proposing follows the same logic. It is not intended to guarantee killers a win. It is intended to give weaker killers more time to use their powers, participate in the match, and enjoy the game.
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I am fairly sure you did not read what I wrote, so let me clarify it.
The slowdown only activates if all three of the following conditions are met at the same time:
- The killer has fewer than five hooks.
- The survivors have completed a total of 270 generator charges.
- All four survivors are still alive.
If even one of those conditions is not met, there is no slowdown.
Additionally, every regression event applied to a generator reduces that generator’s slowdown by four percentage points. This means the slowdown becomes weaker over time as the killer attempts to defend the generators.
If a killer tunnels one survivor and completes five chases, the other survivors should still be able to complete roughly three to four generators’ worth of progress before that survivor dies. At that point, the remaining survivors should still have a strong chance of escaping.
This is not intended as a punishment for survivors. It is meant to help weaker killers catch up when the survivors are progressing too quickly.
The game is currently in a state where generators can be completed extremely fast. Survivors have many perks and items that increase repair efficiency. This slowdown would only help bridge the gap so both sides have enough time to participate in the match.
In my original post, I also gave survivors a comeback mechanic. It simply activates during a 2v1 rather than a 3v1.
What would you suggest instead? Would you give the killer a comeback mechanic during a 4v1 and then give survivors comeback mechanics during both a 3v1 and a 2v1? Or do you believe killers should not receive any comeback mechanic while survivors should receive one in both situations?
The claim that survivors have almost no comeback potential is false. Survivors can still win through strong chases. If a survivor reads the killer correctly and plays loops well, they can buy more than enough time for the team to escape.
The real problem is the sunk-cost mentality. When generators are completed quickly and the killer has already invested a large amount of time chasing one survivor who still has many resources available, the killer may feel forced to continue tunnelling that survivor to justify the time already spent.
However, if a mechanic reduces that pressure, the killer may be more willing to abandon the chase and pursue someone else. The purpose of this system is to help the average killer make that decision.
Bloodlust exists because of poor map design. You know that some loops require Bloodlust for many killers to have any realistic chance of catching the survivor. Even then, the killer immediately loses Bloodlust when they break a pallet or use most killer powers.
Blocked windows exist for a similar reason: to prevent infinite loops. If survivors had no limit on how many times they could vault the same window, certain loops would become impossible to counter, even with Bloodlust.
These are not comeback mechanics for killers. They are necessary systems that allow the game to function.
Let me make sure I understand your position on camping. If the killer remains near the general area of the hook, patrols nearby generators, watches the hook, or does anything else you consider camping, survivors still have several options.
They can coordinate a rescue and give the unhooked survivor time to reach the nearest loop. Alternatively, they can focus on generators and punish the killer for remaining near the hook.
Those options already exist in the current version of Dead by Daylight. However, I assume you do not consider them sufficient and would prefer the killer to be forcibly teleported away from the hook.
Under my proposed system, survivors could still make the same choices. Repairing generators while the slowdown is active would take longer, but they could still build significant progress. Once the slowdown deactivates, those generators could already be close to completion.
Again, players who enter a match intending to tunnel someone from five generators will always exist. You cannot completely prevent that behaviour without also punishing killers who are playing normally.
I agree with your final point. Some players enter a match intending to slug all four survivors while earning very few Bloodpoints, just as some survivor groups enter a match intending to bully the killer.
It is difficult to prevent either behaviour without negatively affecting normal players. The better approach is to provide meaningful rewards for not playing that way.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4099285#Comment_4099285
For killers, if the survivors have completed 60% or more of their objective while the killer has completed less than 50% of theirs, the killer would receive a generator slowdown effect.
It's not 60% of their objective unless 3 gens are complete. You said charges, which could be on 7 different gens with 0 gens complete. And then regress builds could make those charges regress. The free slowdown being weaker means it still exists. The killer can intentionally avoid using pain res until they hit this point, get 4 regression events (and probably a person or two killed) and still be receiving this free slowdown.
A 40% gen speed buff with 2 people left but with more than one gen left is still going to be a 3k, at least. It's not a catch up if winning is impossible.
This would mean killers would not need to run only slowdown perks and could use more interesting builds
Sure because it's free now. And no one needs to bring slowdown. They choose to.
The only reason I suggested bringing back hook grabs is that survivors should not be able to run directly in front of the killer and unhook someone without taking a significant risk.
If people unhook in the killers face it's almost always a trade. With a ranged killer it could be a double down. The killer could also choose to slug the unhooker and tunnel the unhooked, massively increasing pressure. It's plenty risky already.
another option would be to make the rescuer Exposed for two seconds after unhooking while inside the killer’s Terror Radius
Make Your Choice already exists and there's a reason it's outside 32m and not within 32m. There's no reason at all to do this. This would, as I already mentioned, lead to killers slugging then tunneling. It already happens a lot. It will just increase.
Regarding limited actions, the average survivor should not need to bless the same totem more than three times in a single match
But why? Boons are not meta. They're not OP. And they're a time waster. I'd rather survivors bless a totem than do a gen.
These limits are mainly intended to counter bully squads
Can't remember the last time I felt bullied in this game. This is mostly a baby issue, and goes away with time. If you want healing to be an issue there's a plethora of perks for that. You're asking for tons of perks-level buffs to be basekit for killers while all survivors get is a slight chance at a 1 out. No anti-camp, tunnel, or slug. Just killer buffs in a game that already favors killer.
Realistically, in what situation would survivors spread 270 charges across all seven generators? That would mean every generator had roughly 38–40 charges of progress.
Based on your concern, the more logical scenario would be for survivors to complete one generator and spread the remaining progress across three other generators. In that case, each of those three generators would have around 60 charges of progress. The moment the slowdown ends, all three generators could be completed very quickly.
Please define what you consider a survivor win, because I think you may have the wrong idea of what winning means for survivors.
No, unhooking directly in front of the killer is not always a simple trade. Survivors can body-block, use defensive perks offensively to force the killer into a lose-lose situation.
Yes, Make Your Choice exists, but my suggestion has nothing to do with that perk. The purpose of my suggestion is to make sure that a bad decision can be punished, just as survivors expect killers to be punished when they make bad decisions.
I am glad that, in your personal experience, you cannot remember the last time you felt bullied in this game. However, we both know that it happens, and it can be extremely unpleasant when you are on the receiving end of it.
Now tell me: what do you consider camping? There is already a basekit anti-camp system that prevents camping from being effective. Do you want the killer to be teleported to the other side of the map after hooking a survivor, or perhaps prevent them from coming within 32 metres of the hook?
Regarding tunnelling, my changes would reward killers for hooking different survivors and slow the game down overall, reducing the pressure to eliminate one survivor as quickly as possible.
We both know (or at least I assume we do) that if a killer is determined to tunnel, they will do it. There is very little a survivor can do besides wasting as much of the killer’s time as possible and trying to make that strategy cost them the match.
That situation is frustrating, and the only way to completely prevent it would be through a system similar to the anti-tunnelling mechanic tested in the 9.2 PTB.
However, most players do not want to tunnel. Sometimes they feel forced to because of how quickly the match progresses. Instead of forcing killers to play in one very specific way and punishing them even when they did nothing wrong, my suggestion would simply give them a little more time to play the match and reduce some of the pressure and anxiety they experience.
Lastly, you clearly believe slugging is a problem. What solution would you suggest that addresses slugging without unfairly punishing killers?
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If you read the ideas I suggested, I included catch-up mechanics for both sides.
For killers, if the survivors have completed 60% or more of their objective while the killer has completed less than 50% of theirs, the killer would receive a generator slowdown effect. However, every time the killer regresses a generator, the slowdown on that generator becomes weaker.
This would mean killers would not need to run only slowdown perks and could use more interesting builds. Again, this mechanic would only activate if the killer has completed less than 50% of their objective while the survivors have completed at least 60% of theirs.
For survivors, if only two or fewer survivors remain, they would repair generators faster, giving them a better chance to escape.
I do not want to remove the Bloodpoints awarded for unhooking survivors. I only want the “Safe Hook Rescue” event removed because it feels pointless now that unhooked survivors receive 15 seconds of Endurance.
Does it make sense to reward someone for making a bad decision simply because the game prevents that decision from being punished?
They could keep the event, but if the survivor you rescued is hit at any point during those 15 seconds, you should lose the Safe Hook Rescue bonus.
The only reason I suggested bringing back hook grabs is that survivors should not be able to run directly in front of the killer and unhook someone without taking a significant risk.
If you dislike that idea and still want hook trades to remain possible, another option would be to make the rescuer Exposed for two seconds after unhooking while inside the killer’s Terror Radius. That would give the killer enough time to land one hit and trade the hook.
Regarding limited actions, the average survivor should not need to bless the same totem more than three times in a single match.
The healing limit is intended to help weaker killers who need two hits to down a survivor or rely on hit-and-run tactics. Realistically, an average survivor would not normally need to complete six full heals during a match.
These limits are mainly intended to counter bully squads and, in extreme cases, help the weakest killers.
In that ideal scenario, the killer would need to complete four full chases against two survivors and then one chase against another survivor.
If we assume that it takes the killer 30 seconds to find the first survivor and an average of 30 seconds for each chase, the match would already be around the three-minute mark. That is assuming the killer is extremely efficient.
An average Dead by Daylight match lasts around five to eight minutes, which means the survivors should have completed at least three generators by the time the killer reaches five hooks.
Therefore, the slowdown would not affect survivors in the ideal scenario. It would mainly help killers who cannot secure downs quickly enough or killers who require time to set up their power.
Regarding the Endgame Collapse, I will admit that I did not explain my idea clearly enough.
When I said, “Any perk that normally activates when an exit gate is opened should be disabled if the killer opens the gate,” I meant any perk that activates through or interacts with the exit gates in any way.
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@Abyast1 said:
These changes are healthy, but there would need to be softlocks around tunneling/slugging outside of that, because this doesn't stop killers tunneling just incentivises not-tunneling (not by making tunneling less efficient but making not tunneling more efficient, which isn't enough because the huge gap when it comes between 1v4 and 1v3 so some or even most might still choose to tunnel to ensure the win and would still be eligible for the bp bonus ect).
Honestly, basekit DS, UB and maybe even a Basekit off the record would be good changes to move in the correct direction with these changes also in mind. Outside of that someone suggested in another comment about an invisibility+incorporeal form sort of thing for like 10s after unhook. Cant body block, can't do actions, but can get away. Stuff like this that makes it difficult to tunnel unless your just unlucky/mindless but also can't be used aggressively.
The problem with creating a soft lock against tunneling is that it would not work. As you said, the advantage of turning the match into a 1v3 is simply too significant.
There are only two realistic ways to change the tunneling mindset. The first is to punish tunneling as much as possible. However, the 9.2 and 9.3 PTBs showed that this approach does not work well, because survivors can weaponize those systems and make the game frustrating for killers.
The second option is to give killers stronger rewards for hooking different survivors. This could include additional Bloodpoints, such as 2,000 Bloodpoints for each unique “golden hook,” or killer-specific benefits similar to what the developers attempted in the 9.2 PTB.
Obviously, the second option is better, but it would require a lot of development time and effort. The developers are unlikely to invest that much work into it, so there is no simple way to create an effective soft lock against tunneling.
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@hermitkermit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4086041#Comment_4086041
When it comes to pallets and resources, we may just have to agree to disagree. I think claiming survivors have access to roughly the same amount of resources at the end of the game as they do at the beginning is a bit disingenuous. Killer is absolutely stronger when there are less pallets on the map.
As for aggressive body blocking with endurance, I think that’s focusing on one particular use case rather than the reason the mechanic exists in the first place. That’s like saying that because 4 man bleed out slugs exist, slugging can’t exist at all. We can talk about how things are used but we need to acknowledge why those things exist in the first place.
Personally I wouldn’t mind a middle ground solution. The unhooked survivor could temporarily have no collision, meaning they can’t body-block for others and killer can’t body-block them from the gate. That would address the issue of endurance being used aggressively while still preserving its original purpose; to protect someone who just got unhooked.
Because while I understand the frustration of an unhooked survivor using endurance to force a body block, I don’t think the answer is removing the protection entirely. Without it, an endgame hook would easily become a guaranteed kill. Anti-camp is disabled, the killer can stand directly in front of the hook, and the moment the survivor is unhooked without endurance they can be instantly downed with no way to react, no counter play.
In my opinion the goal shouldn’t be guaranteeing an escape or guaranteeing a kill. The goal should be creating situations where both outcomes are possible and both sides have some degree of counter play and agency. That’s where I think the healthiest middle ground is.
Sure, that may work: remove the unhooked survivor completely from the equation so the killer has a chance to make a trade hook.
We know they can do that. My problem then becomes: what about the other second-chance perks the newly hooked survivor may have?
Yes, Decisive Strike would not be active, but what about Deliverance? What if they get the 4% self-unhook? In that case, the newly hooked survivor could still end up getting a free escape.
The reason I say Endurance should stop working once all five generators are completed is because it would force survivors to make the right play. You should not be able to run in, unhook directly in the killer’s face, and then have both survivors run to the exit gate with very little risk.
I also believe the unhooked survivor should not have a hitbox for the killer.
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@hermitkermit said:
I actually think the endgame is typically when killers are at their strongest. By that point a lot of resources have already been used up, survivors are often injured or have hook states, and you need to defend 2 gates instead of 5 generators. Anti-camp and anti-tunnel perks are no turned off, which allows you to face camp making securing an end game kill easier than a kill before the gens pop.
The reason basekit BT exists is to prevent an immediate down with no counterplay. I think it’s reasonable to say that the game is healthier when both sides have some degree of agency and possible counterplay.
With the current pallet density and the speed of the game, survivors almost always have resources around them. Also, I am not talking about defending the exit gates. I am talking specifically about Endurance no longer working once all five generators are completed.
Do you think it is fair for the unhooking survivor to be able to use Endurance aggressively to body-block the killer and stop them from hitting the survivor they just rescued?
In that scenario, both survivors can often escape because the killer cannot do anything meaningful. The unhooked survivor has Endurance, the unhooker can body-block, and with nearby pallets or the exit gate already open, there is usually no real counterplay.
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It is not about kills or anything like that.
Endurance exists to help survivors against tunneling and to give them protection in those situations. However, once all generators are completed, the game is basically considered over. At that point, there is nothing left for the killer to “tunnel” someone, because the main objective has already been completed.
The way I see it is similar to the hatch. The hatch gives survivors hope of escaping and prevents them from completely giving up when the match is almost lost. In the same way, if basekit Endurance were removed during the endgame, it would give the killer a reason to keep playing the last minute or two of the match with the hope of securing a kill.
If you are so good at killer that you can secure a kill during the endgame even with Endurance active, then that is good for you. However, that is your personal experience, not necessarily what the general player base experiences.
If the developers still want Endurance to exist during the endgame, they could make it so that Borrowed Time provides Endurance during that period instead of having it be basekit.
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@Yamalive said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4083759#Comment_4083759
We could read this every Patch. Survivor perk X is so useful and/or broken, yet after release you hardly ever saw them again. People always overestimated survivor perks on PTB and neglected all arguments.
But here comes my real issue, there was no talk about new perks at all. So why even throwing this in ignoring the discussion?
The problem is the mentality of survivors who do not want to change their builds.
Survivors often choose not to use stronger new perks because they do not feel like direct upgrades. For example, Five Moves Ahead can be seen as an upgrade compared to Windows of Opportunity, but many survivors still choose Windows of Opportunity because it does not have a 30-second cooldown.
At the same time, when Fast Track was changed, many survivors initially chose not to equip it because they thought it was not strong enough.
Most of the time, the new survivor perks are strong and can change the game. However, because players are not willing to change their builds, or because they think a cooldown of 30 or 50 seconds is too much, they choose not to use them.
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@crogers271 said:
Most of the points I was going to cover have been made.
1: @Science_Guy points out, and I agree, that the idea survivors have been getting a lot of great perks is not correct. Things that were meta builds (on both sides) many years ago are still meta builds.
2: @cogsturning mentions that killers are just inherently more difficult to design perks for. Take Haywire, a pretty weak perk in initial idea, but brokenly strong on Singularity.
3: Survivor's have built in systems that make new good perks not as good as they sound (even before diminishing returns). Mostly the exhaustion mechanic, adding a new strong exhaustion perk doesn't actually make survivors that much stronger, it just serves as a slight variation of what they could do. Also healing perks, which have always had their own version of diminishing returns, adding new variations of ways to increase healing aren't really making survivors stronger, its just giving them more variety of how to activate a boost.
On the other hand, we're still basically reliant on Unbreakable and DS as the anti-slug/anti-tunnel.
4: If we're going to talk about perks in the PTB, the devs designed a survivor perk that makes more sense as a killer perk for the vote chapter.
From what I have seen, strong survivor perks tend to stay unchanged, while newer survivor perks often try to mimic some of their effects in different ways.
It also seems to me that some newer perks, especially after the diminishing returns system was added, are designed to bypass those limits. For example, Lend a Hand is a healing perk that helps you heal faster, but the way it is designed allows it to ignore diminishing returns. At the same time, Wide Open Throttle is designed in a way that lets it be used with almost any Exhaustion perk except Lithe. That means survivors can effectively have two Exhaustion perks that they have full control over.
As for killer perks, I mostly see the same meta perks being changed and rotated around. Do not get me wrong, there are some newer killer perks that see use, but most of the time it feels like the same perks keep appearing.
The perks Jason brought are a joke. Once again, the most useful one seems to be Silent Shadow, but mainly on the stronger killers. This leads into the other point you made.
Stronger killers can capitalize on almost any perk because their powers are already strong. But if you make a perk useless for them, you often make it useless for the entire killer roster. At the same time, if a perk is created or reworked in a way that is useful for certain weaker killers, it often gets changed later because stronger or specific killers can use it too effectively. Thanatophobia is a good example of this, because Legion and Plague were able to use it far more effectively than most other killers.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4083636#Comment_4083636
I understand that they try to make perks as generic as possible so that many killers can use them.
This is the issue. There are so many killers now, many of which are very strong, and they're probably worried about unexpected synergy that'll make the perk busted on certain killers. They already have this problem in reverse, where they release a new killer and older perks might be super cheese on them (recently, certain anti-chase perks on Krasue) so they are probably being very cautious. Even newer perks that are being used, like Turn Back the Clock, are pretty cautious and repetitive.
That being said, a lot of recent survivor perks are also crap. Out of the 9 new ST perks, maybe 2 are decent and see real use. TWD perks were also mostly bad. And even Five Moves Ahead is just Windows 2.0. The fact that so many perks look a lot like older perks shows that the ideas are kinda running out. Elusive being scrapped from basekit has given them a little bit of newness to work with on the survivor side too.
There are also more survivors released than killers lately, so the chances of something decent for survivor is statistically higher.
That would make sense, but the problem is that if you look at some perks, you can already tell whether they will be problematic without needing to test them.
For example, Fast Track, Wide Open Throttle, and Cross-Examination are some of the newest problems. Anyone with a decent number of hours in the game could see that these perks would be problematic, yet we still need to test them just to confirm what many players already knew.
On the other side, look at Jason’s perks. They wanted to create a theme around the number 13, but because of that, they ended up making the mostly useless and forgettable perks that people will use for the adept achievement and then never touch again.
Maybe Silent Shadow will become useful with the new change they want to make, but then there is another issue: Blight and Nurse will probably abuse it. Then it will likely get nerfed and become useless again within a few months.
I do not want to sound like I am attacking anyone. I just want to understand how perks that seem obviously problematic from a mile away make it through the discussion meeting and into the game, while perks that are useless from the start, or have not received changes for literally years, never get improved.
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@ShanoaLegendaryPlz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4083636#Comment_4083636
Yea thats kinda what i was getting at, the killers are strong so they are given weaker perks that wont support their power, but end up not supporting barely anyone's powers either.
But i am a fan of stealth perks so i might get some use of that new one jasons got for stealth at the start and end of the round.
To me, new killers feel safe.
What I mean is that many of them seem to follow a similar design formula. They usually have one power for mobility, but it only lets them travel to very specific places, so they do not gain too much of an advantage. Then they often have another part of their power that is used for dealing damage, but it usually feels similar to what other killers already do.
I am not saying this is necessarily a good or bad thing. They have clearly found a formula that works for them. However, because of that, many newer killers do not feel that different or unique.
The reason some of them feel strong is that we compare them to weaker killers like Trapper, GhostFace, Pig, Hag, and others that the developers do not seem interested in meaningfully improving. To me, many new killers feel like simple, safe options and check boxes that need to be filled.
Because they follow this formula, I also feel like they sometimes make perks just for the sake of making them. It feels like they have the following mindset: “The killer is safe, so the perks must be below average to avoid overpowered combinations that could upset survivors or make certain killers a nightmare to balance.”
That is why I want to understand how they design the perks they make, because the same ideology does not seem to exist on the survivor side. We often see survivor perks that look problematic just from reading them, yet they still go to the PTB, and then we have to wait three to six months for them to maybe be fixed.
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@ShanoaLegendaryPlz said:
Ive kinda been asking the same thing as to how they come up with new pokemon these days.
But on a more serious note my guess is the killers that come out recently are strong. Almost A-S tier, so they probably feel the new stronger killer needs weaker perks while the new survivors need stronger perks to compensate. But fail to look at the whole picture of the perks being used by every killer, and the strong survivor perks being used by all swf teams.
I see the point you are trying to make, but perks can be shared between characters, and they do not always design a character’s perks to support that killer’s power. Look at Jason: none of his perks directly support or help his power.
I understand that they try to make perks as generic as possible so that many killers can use them. However, when they make a strong perk, or one that becomes problematic, they often nerf it very quickly and then never look at it again.
As for survivor perks, they usually fall into a few categories. Some exist to “fix” certain problems while also giving extra benefits. Some are clearly meant to pair with and support other perks in order to work better. Others are just gimmick perks that can be fun.
That is a big issue. Survivor perks can often work very well on their own and produce good results. If you combine them with other perks that support them, they can change the game dramatically.
On the other hand, killers need perks that either support their power or their playstyle. But because many killer perks have so many restrictions and limitations, the pool of useful options they can choose from becomes very small.
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@Mandy said:
The number changes were suggested by our Consultants, as things that can be done by a Designer without programming bandwidth. There might be slight number adjustments to the live release based on the PTB feedback, that still remains to be seen.
Why they are not directly in the game, is that they have to go through a release cycle, so they'd be with the next release. The next release is what this PTB content is including. There's no way to put them into the game without a release.
If there's any changes to be made from the Killer survey, they'll be in later releases, we work many months ahead.You said, ‘We work many months ahead,’ so my question is: were those changes and buffs for the killer planned to come alongside the anti-tunneling and anti-camping mechanics? In those updates, they also said they would update some killers, but that never happened. Were these the updates they were talking about?
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@Mandy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4072395#Comment_4072395
which is exactly what the PTB is - we adjust based on the feedback. As you've said we've not gone through with something when it's overwhelmingly negative, or when we can see in live play it's different that it was perceived to be.
For this PTB we're heavily focusing on the Diminishing Returns, looking for issues etc that didn't come up in our playtesting as it's very different when you have thousands of people playtesting something, rather than just designers or consultants. As well as the Blight changes.
The number tweaks to the killers admittedly don't need much testing, they were never meant to be massive changes as we didn't have the bandwidth to do programming changes just what Designers could change themselves safely without issues. They could have just been pushed live when we release this chapter but they have to be in the PTB build.
If the number tweaks do not require much testing, why not add them to the game as they are?
Also:
- Why are they not already in the game?
- How were those numbers decided?
I would really like to see the dev team’s process.”
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@SoGo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/466352/what-the-point-of-ptb
It's not testing, they do that internally, or at least I think so.
PTBs are exclusively to promote the upcoming changes, spark interest and let the content creators talk about it.
Maybe they fix a few bugs they didn't notice themselves, but the players did.
They have repeatedly said that PTB exists for testing and that the whole point is to evaluate changes. But almost every time, they push the changes through anyway, unless the community response is overwhelmingly negative.
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@Wezqu said:
Its for testing things and Behavior to collect data of how the changes effected stuff. Still the small changes might not be the main thing they are testing as in the end we don't know what data they are collecting every time they have a PTB. Still they do scrap changes that they deem bad for the game and has done it several times even nerfing or buffing killers before they get released.
I understand that, but again, this time the change they gave is only 0.5 and 0.05 seconds. I get what you are saying, but it still feels like PTB is only there to showcase what they plan to do, not really to test things.
As for the data, yes, I know they are collecting it, but sometimes they do not seem to understand what they are collecting. For example, with the map The Game, they could not understand why the slug time was higher than on every other map. Even when the chat gave them the answer, they still could not connect the dots.
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@wilnunez said:
I believe that a proper tutorial system would do more to prevent tunneling / camping / slugging than the changes they are testing in the PTB right now. It's baffling that even after so long, the tutorial is so barebones and only teaches you the basics of movement and interacting with the game. It would be so nice if it could show how to deal with these difficult situations so that new players aren't left feeling helpless.
Yes and that's the thing they have done nothing with the tutorial from almost when they create it. A friend of mine start play the game and need to watch 3 to 4 videos in oder to learn the basics
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@random1543 said:
voice comms wont work as people wont use it/ be toxic, the best way they need to go in a comm wheel like dbd mobile had with pre made messages, its absurd to me they haven't added that for QOL for solo q.
That's what i mean why not make communication between survivors better instead of giving them all those things. If the communication don't work then give them all this benefits.
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@CatManThree said:
Consistency perhaps? Feels like it would only add more factors to worry about for killer balancing too.
So it better to have a generic benefit that let's say 60% of killers can use than help each killer especially the low tiers ?
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@ratcoffee said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3994360#Comment_3994360
People forget the anti-slug takes 90 seconds to activate in the first place and then takes 30 seconds each subsequent time. That's a lot of time to spend on the ground doing nothing until you get one (1) more hook
In order to do so you need to find another one and end the chase faster.
So in other words you can't win any scenario.
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@ad19970 said:
This update will simply create a much better foundation for DBD, where tunneling and slugging aren't as oppressive anymore and playing in a fun way will be more effective for killer. They can still continue balancing the game down the line, buffing killers if they need to be buffed.
If they wanted to have better foundations, they would add concessions so that survivors would not abuse the system. Instead, they force the killer to play in a way they see fit for them.
Tell me what you can do to a survivor with 2-hook stage to stop them from repairing a gen in front of their face? -
@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3991613#Comment_3991613
You still have to fill the recovery meter each instance. That's a ton of time total. No one should be on the round for four minutes anyway.
Not real if you think about it you down the survivor, you make a small petrol to make sure no one is here to safe them this normally will take less that 10 seconds but what if there is a survivor near by will you let them have a free safe, will you chase them or risk it. If for any reason you leave the down survivor go for rhe other even only to scare them away you gove the other one plenty of time to recover and move away from you. Now you need to relocate them and pick them up this can take 20 to 30 second alone just to make sure you will jot lose for free the survivor you just down.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3991613#Comment_3991613
You still have to fill the recovery meter each instance. That's a ton of time total. No one should be on the round for four minutes anyway.
If after you down a survivor only chase of any other players try to get a free safe you lose around 20 to 30 seconds.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3991588#Comment_3991588
What useless perk takes 90 seconds to stand up?
What useless perk takes 90 seconds and give if after that infinite amount of chances to get up. In case you don't know the timer don't reset when the killer pick you up, and after 90 seconds, you gain for the rest of the map. You can get up 4 times before you die from bleeding out, and that includes the 90 seconds.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3991578#Comment_3991578
I'll give it a go off the top of my head:
Survivors are penalized by trying to tunnel a gen by losing gen progress
Each time they complete an objective, it becomes harder to advance their overall objective as the killer has less to defend
Survivors have actually had strategies wiped out (i.e. forced to play) such as going for WTP+BU plays or unbreakable builds (the fix for the latter not just addressing the issue, but giving the killer more strong hook locations)
Survivors lose access to some of their strongest perks and AFC in end game, even though all they did was complete their objective, making it easier for the killer to secure a kill
Windows block after three vaults even though all the survivor is doing is their objective of staying away from the killer
Killers gain bloodlust, again even though again the survivor is just doing what they are supposed to.
Most of those were/are good for the game, but let's not act like the killer doesn't gain benefits just when the survivors are doing well.
Survivors are penalized for tunneling a single gen because they can lose progress. They often focus on the first gen they see and ignore the map layout. For example, on MacMillan Estate, if you do gens on one side, you can lock yourself into a 3-gen. Do one gen on the other side and you likely win.
Each time survivors complete an objective, it becomes harder to advance the overall objective because the killer has less to defend. Early game, survivors have more pallets and loops, killers must break walls, and survivors control more of the map. As the game progresses and those resources disappear, killers get stronger. Would you want pallets to respawn after a set time to make it easier?
Survivors have had strategies removed, like WTP+BU plays or Unbreakable builds. The fix did more than address the issue. It also gave killers stronger hook locations. That happens across games, but killers also lose strategies, and many strong perks become useless.
Survivors lose access to some of their strongest perks and AFC in the endgame, even though they only completed their objective, which makes it easier for the killer to secure a kill. This is the same endgame survivors control the start of. It is also when survivors can choose to leave and avoid the killer.
Windows block after three vaults even though the survivor is only trying to stay away from the killer. Killers gain Bloodlust even though the survivor is still doing what they are supposed to do. Those were necessary. Otherwise many killers would never catch survivors, since several maps have issues.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3991570#Comment_3991570
10 and 5 wouldn't be bad at all. They're not going to give you 3 free full perks as basekit.
Unlike survivors that they have what 6, 7 perks for free, and they make it so the hook is the safest area to be
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3991265#Comment_3991265
I cant imagine it'll be that bad but whatever it is, it'll likely also make haste perks more popular, which will shake up the boring meta.
Yes, it will be 5% haste for 20 seconds for killers, except the strongest one, and 10% extra damage, so it will be around 15%.
The buff will be small otherwise; survivors will say they are too strong.
But please tell me, make a guess what the number will look like, base your idea and your experience. -
@AmpersandUnderscore said:
In the past few years, there have been several meta shakeups that "force survivors to play in different ways":
Healing has gone back and forth several times, with "not bothering to heal" before circle, "staying healthy" (circle release), then back to "not bothering" (circle and medkit nerfs), and back again to "stay healthy".
Dead hard nerf twice (and, as I recall, there were an awful lot of posts claiming people couldn't "adapt" to not having their "crutch" both times).
Prove thyself and BNP nerfs switching people to medkits.
Massive changes to maps, tiles, and pallets, forcing people to deal with fewer resources, weaker pallets, and large dead zones.
Anti-Hiding and distortion nerf.
The only thing I'm seeing in the forums today is an awful lot of people who see the only way they can imagine playing this game (hard tunneling at 5 gens) getting changed, and are absolutely falling apart because they can literally think of no other way to play the game and refuse to try to adapt in any way. And that's even with extra incentives (plural) added to spread pressure.
The healing meta never punishes you for not healing. The idea was to give survivors another action they can take to buy killers more time to play, but healing is so strong that you don’t spend much time on it and often don’t need a teammate. They even nerfed Mangled to make healing better, with no real downside.
Dead Hard was a problem. They tried many times to fix it while keeping its identity, and the version we have today exists because it was the only way they could make it fair.
Prove Thyself and Brand New Part were nerfed because they sped up the game and left killers less time to play.
Maps changed for both sides. Yes, they’re forcing people to deal with fewer resources and weaker pallets to make players learn how to play, instead of just dropping a pallet and calling it a day. Would you want every map to have the same number of pallets and loops?
The anti-hiding push comes from both survivors and killers. Survivors want active teammates to help them and enjoy the game, and killers want to chase, not watch a gen pop every 45 seconds without seeing anyone.
The reason you see many complaints is that the game keeps getting faster. If you play a B or lower tier killer (and even some A tiers), you can’t keep up with efficient survivors. You start with at least one gen effectively gone because of how fast they can be completed. Most killers need time to play.
The only killers who can consistently face good survivors (not try-hard bully squads, etc.) are top killers like Nurse and Blight, because they are fast and can ignore core mechanics.
Slugging is necessary when you need time to play; you force a survivor off a gen so they help their teammate. Tunneling is sometimes needed to slow the game down.
I don’t like when a killer tunnels at five gens, but the new changes punish killers who simply play the game. Six hooks means you must have active chases with at least three survivors at all times, and you also need to ignore the survivor you recently hooked. That only helps survivors have a more stress-free experience.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3990517#Comment_3990517
players know that it's more beneficial to have 2 survivors on two different gen rather one 1.Yes, it's more beneficial, because the game makes it so.
That isn't forcing survivors to play the game in a certain way. That's nerfing one possible strategy (in this case, the obvious strategy, which are the ones that should get nerfed).
Nothing about the upcoming update forces killers to not tunnel, just as survivors could all jump on the same gen if they wanted. They've added changes that make it not as beneficial as it currently is.
Also yes i am aware this exists i just bring an example of a perk implemented as base kit on the killers similar with they do that for the survivorsLike a limited version of BBQ and Chilli? Or maybe Pop?
And that what i am saying they game make it more beneficial to leave your teammates on the ground and finish the gen, thay make the game more beneficial to end rhe game faster and they make the game to have less interaction with both yhe killer and survivors.
The force a very particular play style on both the killer and in decre on the survivors.
Also as for the perks they give to the killers unlike the benefits the survivors they gain the killer may not have the chance to use them.
Aura reading counter be any lock or even position close to the gen. Pop if you are not fast or you start a new chase you may not have the chance to use it
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3990505#Comment_3990505
You can still slug. 90 seconds is a hell of a long time for someone to be off gens. And you can still tunnel. You're just going to suffer for the choice. It's not like the game suddenly ends if you tunnel someone.
But you're not being forced to play one certain style. You're being discouraged from playing a largely frowned upon and dirty style.
Most likely adjustments will be made for those characters. RBT and Condemn will be considered as null effects or something. The three people that main Twins will be okay.
Not quite you see with this change you know taht a survivor on the ground will be up in 90 without you so you can stay on the gen. Also as killer you can't just chase another survivor easily because you risk to lose all the pressure you have. Normally if you have slug a survivor they will need to have another one to come and pick them up now yhey don't.
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@crogers271 said:
We literally have things like basekit slowdown if the survivors group up on a gen.
After the survivors vault a window in a chase the killer gain bamboozle for that windowHow about we give you: if the survivors vaults the same window three time in chase, even if the killer has foolishly committed to a strong loop, the window autoblocks so the survivor can't run it infinitely?
This " slowdown" exist from the start of the game and never was relevant in the game not only because the % is very low but mostly because players know that it's more beneficial to have 2 survivors on two different gen rather one 1.
Also yes i am aware this exists i just bring an example of a perk implemented as base kit on the killers similar with they do that for the survivors
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@cogsturning said:
Killers are getting buffed. I'm about to have a hasted killer find me with basekit aura reading and get increased damage on my gen just for hooking someone. Both sides are gonna have to change. The shake up will be good to rattle everyone who's let their playstyle get stale and repetitive.
Yes it's a buff ( we don't know the numbers and most likely will be low numbers) but this buff come with a lot of changes that force a particular play style for the killers and the play style is not fit for all killers ( example pig, twins, sadako)
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@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3990488#Comment_3990488
You're not getting what I'm saying. The systems were designed to prevent you from giving up, but they counted not contributing to the trial in a very specific way toward that. Risky plays and safe plays were equally penalized. Prioritizing gens were penalized. The system didn't work at all as intended so it was reverted. In this case, if anti-tunneling and anti-slugging causes the Killer to actually be unable to play the game (or more likely, kill rates drop too far), the odds of them being changed are high.
I see your point but i highly doubt it considering the fact that devs most of they time think they know better and use statistics that make no sense
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@Foggyguy said:
You mean like them having to bring several anti-tunnel perks so they have a chance to play the game?
Close i mean to do similar direction with the survivors. Were they add as basekit to the killers perks they may need or are general useful.