wilnunez
wilnunez
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- wilnunez
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I feel like the problem is that Bots are designed to play selfishly for no reason. Bots play far too safe and will leave immediately when the gates are opened instead of trying to help the team at all. I think Bots should be designed to be selfless macro-playing machines (always going for rescues and heals, repairing gens when possible, REALISTICALLY looking for totems, helping the team in Endgame before leaving, etc.) and then to compensate, they could perform mediocre if not poorly in chase. I don't think people would mind their Bot teammate dying quickly in chases as much if they actually contributed significantly to the match otherwise.
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Rarity doesn't mean much in this game unfortunately; if you make it rarer that just means the people with more bloodpoints to spend with have more of them than those who don't. It wouldn't really fix the issue much unfortunately.
The Ebony Mori is a iridescent killer offering, the highest rarity, and Killers still bring it all the time. Maybe it would work at first, but after a couple weeks the playerbase would have already stocked up thousands. -
2v8 is my all-time favorite modifier. I think at some point the devs seriously should consider making it either permanent or semi-permanent (every weekend or limited to specific times of day)
My second favorite is Lights Out. It's not a perfect mode by any means but I've always wanted a more hide-and-seek focused mode in Dead by Daylight and this is the closest I can get. I wish the mode would scrap the concept of generators and hooks and make it more like a hide-and-seek mode where you simply wait out a timer for the exit gates to be powered and get killed if you're found. -
I agree with what you're saying about how unbalanced this modifier is, but it's not as unwinnable as you think. Yes, if you encounter the rare legendary 8-man SWF you'll probably get stomped as Killer, but that is not very likely to happen.
Instead, winning as Killer in 2v8 involves coordinating with your teammate so that while one Killer is chasing and getting downs, the other is also pressuring Survivors off of generators. I can consistently get at least 5-6 kills playing Wraith this way and even if there's a few good Survivors, you can force them to get off generators and go rescue if you put enough of their teammates in cages.
Plus, the thing about 2v8 is that, unlike 1v4, you can actually decide to shut down a good Survivor in chase if you and your teammate just double team them. No amount of pallets will stop you from going down to two Killers.
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I believe that a proper tutorial system would do more to prevent tunneling / camping / slugging than the changes they are testing in the PTB right now. It's baffling that even after so long, the tutorial is so barebones and only teaches you the basics of movement and interacting with the game. It would be so nice if it could show how to deal with these difficult situations so that new players aren't left feeling helpless.
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I believe the facecamping reduction changes are going to prevent proxycamping as well, but still overall be well received. The buffed anti-camp radius is fine (as most Killers nowadays have turned away from camping in favor of just coming back to the Hook later), but I think the real kicker is that the Resolve bar will now be displayed on the HUD, making this the first time in Dead by Daylight ever that solo queue players will be able to tell if someone is being face-camped/proxy-camped WITHOUT anyone running Kindred. This was one of the biggest bridges between solo queue players and premade groups.
I think the tunneling reduction changes that incentivize unique hooks without punishing tunneling itself are nice in theory, but are not significant enough to make a difference for the Killers that need it. Experienced players understand that tunneling is not some hateful means of targeting players, but simply an avenue to win the game, especially in a meta where it is harder than ever to finish chases on most maps due to the sheer density of pallets (unless you play a high-tier Killer or you play against uncoordinated, inefficient Survivors). Especially now that Killers are not going to be punished for tunneling, I predict that not only is the PTB going to be filled with Killers tunneling regardless to see how effective it is compared to going for unique hooks, but they will discover very quickly that a tiny +5% speed boost from Bloodlust and a golden sticker on the hook wheel is not going to be enough to convince Killers who want to win to not tunnel the first Survivor they find, no matter how many seconds of Endurance/Haste/Elusive they have. Sure, it will be harder, but it won't be impossible and that's all that matters. That being said, I'm extremely curious on how much the bloodpoint multipliers will be for getting unique hooks. I remember back when Barbecue & Chili was a bloodpoint perk that gave you a +100% bloodpoint bonus for hooking each survivor once, and Killers who ran this perk went out of their way to get their hooks so they could get bloodpoints. I firmly believe that if the bloodpoint multiplier is big enough (imagine if it gave you x12 bloodpoints if all twelve hooks were unique?) that Killer players in low MMR who need bloodpoints to level their Killers up will go out of their way to not tunnel in order to farm bloodpoints faster, which could have the potential to make tunneling much less prevalent in lower-skill lobbies, where it is the most effective.I think the slugging reduction changes are going to be yet another mixed bag of reactions. The way I saw it, the last time this sort of anti-slug Resolve mechanic was tested in a PTB, it was not well received for two main reasons: Survivors could get up too quickly (it only took 90 seconds of being slugged), and the progress was cumulative and not consecutive (you could be downed multiple times and still retain your Resolve bar progress). In the upcoming PTB, it will take 120 seconds instead, which is longer, but it will take less time the more Survivors there are on the ground. I have a feeling that in most normal matches, this would be a non-issue, as Killers who are playing normally against Survivors who are playing normally won't even encounter this mechanic being used once. However, every time a PTB comes out where anti-slug changes are tested, the biggest points of friction that get tested (and will be tested again for sure) are when survivors start sabotaging hooks and trying to go for pallet saves (I think Flip Flop + Power Struggle will need to be looked at if these changes ever made it to live servers). Both these situations will force the Killer to slug the Survivors as the "correct" play, which could easily trigger this Resolve mechanic. For these particular reasons, I can't imagine these changes will be received well either.
The Skull Merchant changes are going to have two types of reactions:
- players who do not play nor care for Skull Merchant are going to shrug the changes off as they are minor buffs to what most people consider an F tier Killer
- players who play and/or care for Skull Merchant are either going to accept the changes out of defeat in hopes that BHVR will follow up with more buffs in the future or be (rightfully) upset that BHVR is still being coy about concrete details regarding the Rework they (might) have in store for her
I'm not quite sure what the Trickster changes are going to be (or if they are even being tested this PTB at all) but my personal theory (based off the word "STYLE" they hid in that slide of the PowerPoint presentation talking about him on their Oct 27th Community Stream) is that they will make the "Trick Blades" add-on basekit (the one that makes knives ricochet and bounce off of walls) and give the player some sort of reward for hitting these "trickshots". Perhaps a faster down time or Haste or something. It's just my guess though, I'm prepared to be entirely wrong.
The other changes are probably going to be received well, those being:
- updated Autohaven Wreckers lighting
- improved Map Repeat Prevention
- new Settings menu
- customizable Scratch Mark colors
.. which are simply quality-of-life changes that I see no one really having much of an issue with.
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@littlehoot said:
So let's be honest here, with the nerfing of fog vials this week, along with the botched rework of maps and keys somehow making them more useless than they were before, we once again come back around to the question of: Is there any point to bringing any survivor items that aren't flashlights, toolboxes or medkits?
I'll be honest, I wasn't much of a map or key user before the rework, but I did make a point of collecting Rainbow Maps and the purple quality keys and did use them occasionally. I was really excited about the potential for fog vials given how I'd seen some of my teammates using them during the brief period before they were nerfed into oblivion.
Now, to be completely honest, I'd rather maps, keys, fog vials and all their add on's be removed from the bloodweb because it's just clutter. None of them are useful anymore, except on the off chance you bring a key and need it for hatch. The fog vials could have been, but now with their impending charge system plus their opacity basically becoming 'mildly tinted' at best, they've quickly been regulated to bloodweb clutter I'd rather not waste my BP on. As for the map rework, they seem to have removed a bunch of base functions and turned them into add on's, and instead offered a bootleg version of Windows of Opportunity. Which, if I wanted to use, I would just bring Windows of Opportunity, not a map.
Does anyone feel like the maps, keys or now nerfed fog vials provide them with more gameplay value than other items? Legitimately, I'm curious if some people are making them work for them because they kind of feel like a waste of bloodpoints at the moment.
Ever since this update dropped, I've been almost exclusively running Fog Vials, Maps, and Keys in order to try and understand just how useful they are in a Trial.
I think Fog Vials are underrated items that haven't been out long enough for people to utilize its full potential. Will they ever be as valuable as a Med-kit, Toolbox, or even a Flashlight? Probably not. But I've noticed that against high tier killers that require a line-of-sight on you to line up their hits (such as Nurse and Blight) the Fog Vial is actually very effective. Any item that can counter higher tier killers while not affecting the lower tier killers as much is a good thing, in my opinion. I'm not sure how necessary the nerfs were, but I don't think they will impact the item as much as people are saying. I believe the point of the Fog Vial is solely to break line-of-sight and not to be able to hide in front of the Killer or pull any sort of similar shenanigans. I think once more people realize that, you'll hear more people complain about how "strong" they suddenly are.
Maps seems to have been sidegraded; you can't "feather" them anymore (tapping the 'Use Item' button in order to briefly glimpse at the auras, saving as much durability as possible) but the new "Windows of Opportunity"-like effect is not as shallow as you think it is. Not only is this an amazing tool for newer players who may not even have the perk, but you can put this item on any chase-oriented Survivor build and now instead of bringing Windows of Opportunity, you have a free slot to bring much stronger perks instead. However, in my opinion, the "Crimson Stamp" add-on (the Iridescent one that shows you the Killer's aura near the Beam of Light) could use a slight range buff to make it worth using over a Key with a "Blood Amber", and perhaps it should take less time to actually channel the Map so it feels less clunky to activate before or during a chase.
Keys were definitely buffed and I will stand by this. The only thing about Keys that were nerfed was the "Blood Amber" add-on, and of course it was going to be nerfed because pre-rework it was the ONLY reason people brought Keys. It's very rare that people bring them to unlock the Hatch, so the other new use case of immediately opening a Chest makes it insanely easy to trigger some niche perks. A great example: If you bring a key alongside "Appraisal" (the Elodie Rakoto teachable perk that recently got buffed, allowing you to rummage chests) you can activate "Moment of Glory" (the Trevor Belmont teachable perk that breaks & heals you after 60 seconds if you search/rummage two times beforehand) in less than 10 seconds at the start of the match if you spot a Chest. Normally this perk is overlooked because the time investment is not worth the reward, but when it's this easy to get now, it's essentially just a free auto-heal on a minute long timer, which can force the Killer to either commit to you or leave you to heal yourself passively while you work on gens.
Overall, I think these were actually good items changes, but the majority of the community is going to overlook these items because they don't heal you or do gens faster. -
@Foggyguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3980439#Comment_3980439
You know what I was gonna make a snarky comment here but I actually respect your response here. So, to start off with literally every item has the thing where there's an objectively best version of it and it makes no sense not to bring it if you have it. If maps were actually not a joke of an item people would run out of rainbow maps and use the green ones but simply because no one in the right mind ever used maps outside of a few incredibly niche builds that most people get bored of they never ran out of rainbow maps. Also rainbow maps + the two stamps was great for finding totems or the stamp and crystal bead was nice for helping out your team if one or more survivors were running boons. Just another one of the many playstyles that behavior nerfs have removed from the map. Also the flint add-on is still a major nerf. I don't need more than like two seconds to see a totem and now there's a hard limit compared to being able to use the map many times by feathering it.
You know what I was gonna make a snarky comment here but I actually respect your response here.
Thank you :D I always appreciate having these sorts of discussions and I really respect your responses as well. I mainly made this thread to attract perspectives like yours so I'm actually very grateful that you took the time out of your day to have this back-and-forth with me.
Also the flint add-on is still a major nerf. I don't need more than like two seconds to see a totem and now there's a hard limit compared to being able to use the map many times by feathering it.
Agreed 100%. The fundamental change to the way Maps are used (consuming singular-use charges to read auras for a limited time instead of using continuous charges to read auras at your own pace) is very interesting to me, because it made feathering worse and overall makes them less versatile to use, but also makes them extremely beginner friendly. If I had to modify my original stance on the topic, I'd say this rework succeeded at lowering the skill ceiling and skill floor of using these items. They now provide much more base value for far less effort, but also provide much less potential value than they could have before no matter the effort.
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@Foggyguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3980391#Comment_3980391
"The ability to open chests in 1 second enables more off-meta Item builds, and anything to encourage people to run perks that aren't hard meta is a good thing, I believe."
You aren't wrong that they help enable off meta builds… but off meta is normally just another way of saying you are playing a meme build. Which, you can do but lets not pretend you aren't throwing the match so you can do this build. It can ruin the game for other players and one of the reasons why other survivors should be able to see when people are running game throwing builds in the pre game lobby so they can dodge if they rather have a 4v1 instead of a 3v1.
"Seeing survivor auras is a life-saver in solo queue. You can skip out on bringing info related perks (such as Bond) by just bringing a Key and channeling it whenever you need to look for people."
You want to see survivors auras for one thing and one thing only, to get healed up. Otherwise you are always best split up on separate gens. So in other words just bring a med-kit. And if you are in chase just go to where the finished gens are.
"The Engineer's Toolbox and Mechanic's Toolbox are trash;"
I agree with you 100% it's just there was one incredibly niche build they just removed that funnily enough was a good reason to stick together. Streewise. If you and a few other people stacked it together you could get real value out of the non-commodius toolboxes… shame they removed it.
"But when players DO bring the correct add-ons on the right variations of these items, they are incredibly strong and lead to unhealthy gameplay"
Counterpoint I don't think hit and run gameplay is healthy and medkits are strongest against this kind of player. Killers that just get a free hit and then leave is incredibly boring on the survivor side. I don't want more killers to be legion I want less legion gameplay. Having less than five seconds of chase is lame.
"Maybe this is region-specifc,"
It's MMR specific. Every other game I get is tunnel clown or ghoul. I have a limited amount of time for this game and I don't want to play matches where I'm handicapped by a baby dwight who thinks he's being helpful by getting me a flashlight.
"Also, showing Totems basekit just for bringing an item and nothing else (the old Rainbow Map) was absurd."
Dude, you calling rainbow maps absurd just shows how totally out of touch you are. No offense but you are a joke of a player and I feel ashamed that I spent this long typing out a response before I realized how deluded you are.Dude, you calling rainbow maps absurd just shows how totally out of touch you are. No offense but you are a joke of a player and I feel ashamed that I spent this long typing out a response before I realized how deluded you are.
I don't understand this point? When I say it was absurd, I don't mean they were overpowered. I mean that by design it was just "green Map with all the add-ons basekit", which was bad design because in no situation would you ever want to run the old green Map when the Rainbow Map did everything it did but better and for longer. I don't think it makes me "deluded" to recognize that? Plus, it's not like it was that good at finding totems. By the time you were close enough to track the Totem, you could usually find it already. The new Sharpened Flint add-on for the Maps is way more useful at finding Totems; you just click once and you see every Totem nearby.
Also, no offense taken. For what it's worth, I thought your response was worth typing and had many valid points. By no means am I saying Maps and Keys ever going to provide as much utility as Medkits and Toolboxes (because the ability to heal yourself and repair faster is infinitely stronger than aura-reading ever will be), I'm just saying this rework took Maps and Keys from borderline useless to having an actual solid use case (even if it's mostly aimed at beginners), which is a good thing I believe. -
@Foggyguy said:
But keys don't really make sense? There's only toolboxes and medkits as worthwhile items now and if I want them why would I bring a key and hope I get a decent one instead of just bringing a good one in the first place? Also seeing survivor auras is… quaint? But ultimately not that useful when there's so many things that work better. Add in the slaughter that was blood amber rework and keys are ultimately only for rat gameplay and chest builds, both of which are game throwing for the other three people. Ultimately I think this will just lead to more lobby dodging when people realize that they will be going into a 3v1 when they see someone bringing a key. At least before they could use the key to help in chase and be useful but now? They are literally made to be thrown away.
Maps are still a joke compared to everything else. Windows works far better and them nerfing maps to no longer show totems was horrible decision making because at least showing totems as base was kinda useful for more experienced players. Now it's an addon which breaks the other part of the map.
Two items only being useful for brand new beginners is bad because there's no option to not find them in the bloodweb. It's just useless clutter now, same with fog vials. Which ironically by nerfing the fog vials to trash they also nerfed keys.
There's only toolboxes and medkits as worthwhile items now and if I want them why would I bring a key and hope I get a decent one instead of just bringing a good one in the first place?
The ability to open chests in 1 second enables more off-meta Item builds, and anything to encourage people to run perks that aren't hard meta is a good thing, I believe.
Also seeing survivor auras is… quaint? But ultimately not that useful when there's so many things that work better.
Seeing survivor auras is a life-saver in solo queue. You can skip out on bringing info related perks (such as Bond) by just bringing a Key and channeling it whenever you need to look for people.
Also, I think this says more about how problematic Medkits and Toolboxes are than anything else. It's clear that BHVR wants to move in the direction of giving each item only five add-ons (one of each rarity) which is a much healthier design.
Medkits have the issue where most of the other add-ons are pretty meh and only a handful are worth running (additional charges, bonus progression on Great Skill Checks, and syringes + styptics). And with toolboxes, some of them are just straight up garbage. The Engineer's Toolbox and Mechanic's Toolbox are trash; 16 charges of toolbox is laughably bad no matter how high the repair speed is and they are only ever brought by players who either don't know that the Commodious Toolbox is better or players who want to bring a Brand New Part.
But when players DO bring the correct add-ons on the right variations of these items, they are incredibly strong and lead to unhealthy gameplay (shutting down weaker Killers who rely on altruistic healing and normal gen speeds to maintain pressure). Maps and Keys post rework are healthy examples of good item design, even if the items by themselves aren't as objectively strong as the other items currently are.
Ultimately I think this will just lead to more lobby dodging when people realize that they will be going into a 3v1 when they see someone bringing a key.
Maybe this is region-specifc, but here in my NA-East matches not once have I seen people dodge lobbies when people bring Maps OR Keys. I don't think it's as big of a problem as you state here but I'm willing to concede otherwise because I'm sure other regions see it differently.
Maps are still a joke compared to everything else. Windows works far better and them nerfing maps to no longer show totems was horrible decision making because at least showing totems as base was kinda useful for more experienced players.
But the point is that by bringing a Map, you don't have to bring Windows of Opportunity and can use that slot for any other good perk. It's the same logic as saying "Why bring a Med-kit when you can just bring Self Care / Strength in Shadows to heal yourself infinitely?" That's a stupid thing for me or anyone to say because you and I know that the point of bringing a Med-kit is so you can heal yourself WITHOUT having to bring healing perks. It's the same logic.
Also, showing Totems basekit just for bringing an item and nothing else (the old Rainbow Map) was absurd. Hex builds were already not preferred by a lot of Killers because of how common it was that someone would find and cleanse the totems before any value could be had, and as a result, if you saw a Survivor bring a map, you knew they were most definitely going to see your Totems (because previously Maps were borderline useless for anything else). Now that you have to bring an add-on (which you already had to do with the old green rarity Map, it was called "Red Twine" and it was a yellow rarity add-on), I anecdotally find that more Killers in my matches run Hex builds compared to before.
TL:DR; They only seem weak because the other Survivor items are very strong in comparison. They are examples of good design and I think it's commendable that they turned what were usually pretty useless items into very much usable items with more digestible add-ons.
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@Rudjohns said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3976385#Comment_3976385
The "WoO" effect of the new map could easily be a new add-on for the old maps
They are terrible now. It didn't need a rework, just a buff.
I think simply adding this as an add-on would further exacerbate the issue BHVR seems to be trying to avoid, which is that survivor items in DBD tend to have many useless add-ons and only one or two strong ones that define the item. This would've just been another Blood Amber add-on situation where everyone would only run Maps just to run that add-on with it.
Why do you write off the Maps as terrible? What did they do before that Maps now can't do better?
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I disagree with OP. Before this update, Maps and Keys were literally worthless and it was pretty much always better to bring a med-kit / flashlight / toolbox. If you brought a Broken Key without any add-ons (or found one in a Chest) it did literally nothing. Similarly, if you brought a regular Map without add-ons (or found one in a Chest) all it did was.. show you generators. Plus, having to "track" objectives on a Map was a confusing mechanic for newer players. The only reason you'd bring a Key before this update was for the Blood Amber add-on, which turned it from worthless to extremely good at the cost of a singular purple add-on. Similarly, green Maps were hardly ever worth bringing over the pink Rainbow Maps due to just how much more they tracked.
Now, Maps and Keys are excellent beginner player tools. Instead of telling every new survivor player to save up and immediately purchase Kate Denson for Windows of Opportunity, they can now just spend some bloodpoints and bring a Map instead to see the resources around them whenever they want. Instead of players having to level up Dwight immediately for Bond to see their teammates near them, they can just bring a Key and figure out where their team is on their own.
Additionally, the previous Map "Red Twine" add-on (which tracked all Killer's belongings) used to show you props such as Trapper's traps. Absolutely unnecessary nerf to an already bad killer. This rework got rid of that add-on and gave us the purple Sharpened Flint add-on instead to show only Totems. -
I think BHVR is going to address tunneling the same way they did camping.
A lot of the discussion around tunneling gets muddy because people can't agree on what tunneling even is. Does tunneling only refer to chasing a Survivor immediately after they have been unhooked? Many would argue there are already perks to address this. What about when a Killer stop chasing one Survivor because they spotted another Survivor who is closer to being sacrificed? Many would argue this is simply just good gameplay on behalf of the Killer (or bad on the Survivor for not hiding better).
In my opinion, there's degrees to tunneling: the former refers to "hard tunneling", and the latter refers to "soft tunneling". When BHVR addressed camping with the Resolve mechanic, it seems like they aimed to address the instances of "hard camping", otherwise known as "face camping". However, for "soft camping" (aka "proxy camping"), they made a few perks to help Survivors counter those scenarios (Reassurance and Camaraderie).
Therefore, I believe they will address tunneling in a similar way. They will implement something like a basekit version of Decisive Strike, giving a Survivor some ability to save themselves from getting hooked if they are picked up shortly after being unhooked, and then update the currently existing tunneling-related Survivor perks to counter the instances of "soft tunneling" / "light tunneling". This could lead to a meta where simply chasing a Survivor who has been hooked before may give them some sort of buff for the rest of the match.
This is further supported by their limited time Modifier, 2v8. In that mode, every Survivor class comes with an "Unlockable ability". The only way to unlock that ability is to get hooked by the Killer. In its own way, it counters "soft tunneling" by simply giving the Survivor some passive buff they can utilize in the next chase. I believe this "unlockable ability" was a test of sorts to see how Killers play around giving Survivors passive buffs for being hooked to reduce the feeling of being tunneled (although that modifier has many extra mechanics that make tunneling harder, so it's hard to say how effective it is) -
I would totally accept a 1v1 gamemode. Ideally, you'd be able to select a Killer (alongside one Killer chase perk) and a Survivor (alongside two Survivor chase perks) and queue against whoever else chose the same Killer as you. It could automate the start and end of the chase and remove any of the extra unnecessary props on the map (Generators, Hooks, Totems, the Hatch, Exit Gates) so that the entire match is just focused on the chase. Although queue times would depend on the popularity of your Killer, that would be balanced out by the matchmaker only needing to find two opposing players of similar MMR (perhaps a seperate MMR for this mode would work).
I would love it, personally. I think it would be a huge boon for content creation as well. -
@ChuckingWong said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3964114#Comment_3964114
There's a huge difference between done at 4 gens and when EGC has started. That comparison feels pretty disingenuous. I still see nothing gained by forcing them to draw out the end of a match. At this point though it's probably best we agree to disagree as I don't think either of us will convince the other.
We can definitely agree to disagree, but just to be clear, it’s not about comparing EGC to 4 gens directly. Its about the logic you used to derive why you think it "doesnt matter"
Today it's “I don't want to be tbagged at the gate,” tomorrow it’s “I don’t want to chase these 4 survivors with 1 gen left.” It’s a slippery slope, and the moment gameplay systems cater to emotional gripes, rather than actual game state, competitive integrity breaks down.
Asking for an out because of feelings is a point of view. Shared by all the people who hookacided out of a match. Whether justified or not. And that was removed.
You dont get to quit just because you "feel its not worth playing out"
That is 1:1 the exact same logic people used for giving up on hook.You dont get to quit just because you "feel its not worth playing out"
That is 1:1 the exact same logic people used for giving up on hook.
The difference is that a Survivor giving up on hook was actively detrimental to the other three Survivors on their team.
It's not comparable because the point of the "Abandon" feature is not to allow you to "quit just because you 'feel like its not worth playing out'", but rather to skip a part of the match that would otherwise be drawn out. A better comparison would be to one of the uses of the Abandon feature on the Survivor side, which is when they are all slugged/hooked. In this case, there is also plenty of gameplay left (Survivors can wait for the opportunity to unhook themselves which is on average an ~11% chance to escape the Hook and possibly get Hatch/Exit Gates), but BHVR recognized that this was an ending many Survivors were disinterested in pursuing and thus gave them a way to just leave what was, ~89% of the time, going to result in a death for the Survivor anyways.
This is exactly the same situation as what OP has proposed; if the Exit Gates are powered AND opened, and the Killer does not have any real lead to work with (a Hooked survivor, an active Chase, Endgame Perks, etc.), the conclusion is usually going to be that the Survivors will just wait for the Killer to push them out of the Exit Gate (which many take as an opportunity to teabag and rub it in the Killer's face). It's just like being 4-man slugged as Survivor (and when the Killer chooses to hump/t-bag your character on the ground); why should you have to sit through that?
I feel like OP has made a fair point; BHVR has implemented this function for a specific purpose (skipping a part of the Match that is basically a cutscene) and this situation as Killer seems to fit that purpose. Yes, there are some emotions involved with the more toxic aspects of how both sides rub the salt in their opponent's wound (the humping on the ground as Killer, the t-bagging at the gates as Survivor), and that is something BHVR will never be able to truly fix; however, it is something that I'm sure both sides would be glad to see less of, though, and this Abandon feature coincidentally helps avoid that a lot more often than before.
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@Ragna_Rock said:
A big problem with this is most people who want to sweat in pvp games will do so in casual or ranked. Take R6 Siege for example back when I used to play it, ranked and casual felt the same as peoples ego just would not let them play casual always playing in the sweatiest way no matter what, mix in a similar toxic community and people would often quit or team kill for no other reasons than because they gave up and just want some small nugget of satisfaction(usually by killing team mates).
In DBD its kind of the same logic a heavily competitive/toxic mind set will bypass a causal/ranked system and most PVP team games these days usually have to put a lot effort into policing the community that it can become stale.
I think that if Behaviour want to fix the problems with core gameplay they need to take a page out of DRG's book and encourage gameplay that motivated people to play in a more healthy way and that is not going to be an easy fix as will require some massive changes to gameplay.
A thought that I had and seen echoed was to have shared hook states so when the limit was full everyone would just die at once reducing incentive for tunnelling and making the hooks change after hooking to keep it random and to reduce camping while on the other side adding new objectives for survivor that need to be done in a certain order of progression to prevent gen-rushing.
Thank you for your response ,,,,
In DBD its kind of the same logic a heavily competitive/toxic mind set will bypass a causal/ranked system and most PVP team games these days usually have to put a lot effort into policing the community that it can become stale.
Yes, but I believe it is possible to discourage players from playing the queue that isn't made for them by essentially designing the two queues to be like different gamemodes.
A thought that I had and seen echoed was to have shared hook states so when the limit was full everyone would just die at once reducing incentive for tunnelling and making the hooks change after hooking to keep it random and to reduce camping while on the other side adding new objectives for survivor that need to be done in a certain order of progression to prevent gen-rushing.
Funny that you mention this, because everything you listed here would make a PERFECT casual queue type gamemode and BHVR already has the tools to do this.:
- The 2v8 modifier showed that BHVR is able to give any killer the ability to "hook" a survivor but have them spawn across the map randomly in a Cage of Corruption.
- The last Blood Moon event modifer held in April 2025 showed that BHVR can swap out regular Generators for Blood Generators that require Survivors to travel back and forth between Blood Pumps while avoiding the Killer.
- The Castlevania Lights Out Modifier available in September 2024 had the anti-camp radius around hooked Survivors set to 32 meters compared to the normal 16 meters.
With a bit of tweaks, this would be the perfect Dead by Daylight casual experience:
- Survivors have to complete 5 out of seven generators (four are Blood Generators, three are regular generators)
- Killers have to hook Survivors 12 times total across all of them to trigger a total wipeout (similar to when Survivors die in the Endgame Collapse where the Entity just consumes everyone)
- Killers can carry Survivors to Hooks but they instantly take Survivors to another Cage of Corruption instead (allows Killers to still use hook perks and still allows Survivors to make sabotage plays)
- Survivors have :
- anti-camp
- anti-slug (whatever BHVR decides to implement, my best guess would be allowing a Survivor to Get Up on their own after some amount of time, like a minute or so)
- Anti-tunneling wouldn't be required as much because forcing the Killer to get 12 hooks to win already prevents any one player from being tunneled anyways
This mode would be a complete turn-off for the "sweaty" players who would prefer to be able to camp/tunnel/slug, but then that's where BHVR can have the other Ranked mode which is just the normal current gameplay (perhaps with additional changes, examples would be like seeing teammates' Perks in lobby, limited Offerings, Perk restrictions, giving specific types of Maps to specific Killers, etc.) but perhaps with additional incentives such as ranked rewards, rank badges, etc.
I think that if Behaviour want to fix the problems with core gameplay they need to take a page out of DRG's book and encourage gameplay that motivated people to play in a more healthy way and that is not going to be an easy fix as will require some massive changes to gameplay.
By having this sort of Casual queue with radically more 12-hook centric gameplay, you could create these massive changes to gameplay and still leave a regular mode for players who don't mind the less "healthy" gameplay if it means the matches are more competitive.
DBD Mobile had such a good system with being able to see your own stats (Kill rate, Escape rate, etc.) and also how it tied into your Rank. We have the stats now, sure, but they still don't really MEAN anything because DBD doesn't reward you for having an 80% kill rate anymore than it does for having a 60% kill rate other than that you (on average) earn slightly more blood points and have harder matches due to the MMR.
Imagine if those sorts of players could be REWARDED for playing well. They could even recycle the Grade system that I'm sure few people care about nowadays (because all it does is give you bloodpoints for playing a lot within 30 days) into a Rank system (Ash V - Iridescent I) and instead of using pips, just tie it directly to an MMR like other games do and let players see their rank change as they play.
TL:DR; I know everything I'm saying sounds crazy, but I just really think DBD could benefit from splitting its gameplay into two distinct modes: a casual queue with new mechanics like shared hook states, anti-camping measures, and progressive survivor objectives to discourage toxic playstyles (e.g., tunneling/camping), and a ranked mode for competitive players with rewards, visible MMR, and stricter rules. BHVR already has the tools from past events (like 2v8 and Blood Moon) to implement these changes. This split would promote healthier gameplay and give both casual and competitive players a space that suits their playstyle.
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@crogers271 said:
Does that not sound like a dream-come-true mode for casual players?Maybe, but I don't think it would have lasting appeal. 2v8 reduces the complexity of a lot of the game elements that exist in 1v4 because twice the number of players adds its own challenges. Without the larger player size I feel like the game would grow stale really quickly.
That said, if they tried it as a modifier I'd give it a go, but I don't think it would work out that well.
I do admit, it would be significantly more boring compared to normal 1v4. Without perks, a lot of the variety in playstyles gets boiled down to a handful of options based on archetypes
But I still do think certain aspects of the 2v8 modifier (such as generator speeds slowing/speeding up based on who's winning and experimenting more with Cages of Corruption) would actually do wonders in the main game and should be explored -
I typically enjoy running this build when I don't feel like running Exhuastion perks but still want to loop the killer:
- Windows of Opportunity (for the obvious pallet/window aura reading)
- Finesse (to greed unsafe windows)
- Resilience (for extra vault speed while injured)
- Troubleshooter (to help around tall loops where the killer is not visible) -
Even with the long cooldown, at least Hex: Blood Favor can shut down tiles and shorten chases dramatically, which helps some Killers.
Hex: Huntress's Lullaby is ultimately worthless besides some niche anti-skillcheck builds that you can put together with killers such as The Doctor. On it's own, even a barely decent survivor can still play the rest of the match perfectly fine without ever having to cleanse it.
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For a perk that provides unconditional healing, it allowing you to only do so at 50% is a very fair tradeoff.
Boon: Circle of Healing serves a fairly different purpose than Self Care, so pointing to it as a means of justifying a Self Care buff is like an apples to orange comparison in my opinion.
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I think the SBMMR system is mostly fine, except for one small issue: MMR is evaluated individually, as in via four simultaneous 1v1s, as opposed to as a 4v1.
If more than 2 survivors die, the Killer should gain MMR and all the survivors should lose MMR. If less than 2 survivors die, the Killer should lose MMR and all the survivors should gain MMR. If exactly 2 survivors die, neither side should gain/lose MMR.
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I don't think Boil Over is a problem. Getting jostled around 25% harder than before is a pain in the rear, sure, and the +25% bonus wiggle progress when dropping from "great" heights can be a problem, but in the majority of games where I've had to deal with it, it's never been anything more than a nuisance.
The real problem lies in the design of the maps they get abused on. The upstairs section of the library on RPD, for instance, was a problem way before Boil Over's buff; all it took was a 4-man squad of survivors running sabotage builds involving breakout in order to make the job of getting a hook there impossible. Boil Over's buff just makes this easier to do without teammates. A better solution, in my opinion at least, is adding guaranteed hook spawns on second floor areas like those.